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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is, and where Bitcoin fits in. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, Australia's female-led, Bitcoin-only podcast, it cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, why the current system leaves so many people behind, and what a clearer, fairer future could look like.
Expect honest, accessible conversations with some of the most interesting thinkers in the space, the kind that take you from "I don't really get this" to genuinely curious. No hype, no pressure, just money, made clear.
Whether you're brand new to these questions or already deep in them, you're welcome here.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anya, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Nell Hunter,
welcome to Honest Money.
Nell: Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Anja: Um, yeah, so I wanna really
start straight off the bat.
I love your hat.
For listeners who are not watching, she's
wearing a cap that says Satoshi Nakamoto.
Um, but tell me about the Bitcoin basin.
Nell: First, lemme tell you about
my hat because this was an absolute
score and I acquired it from my
husband as all the best things are.
So just one little shout out for
the hat that I stole from him.
Anja: Acquired or stole?
Nell: I'll go with acquired.
So yeah, but he's not getting back.
It's way too cool.
Um, the Bitcoin basin?
Yes.
So the Bitcoin basin is New Zealand's
first Bitcoin circular economy
that we've been building for the
last year, and it's so exciting.
It's,
Anja: it is like, I had a
quick look at the website.
You guys have so many merchants.
I have Merchant Envy.
Nell: Yeah, they're really cool too.
So you should be even more envious.
They're amazing people.
Um, it's good though, like
that, that's part of it.
We want, we want people to
wanna come and see these people.
They, it is just such a mixed group.
You know, we've got cafes bars,
we've got beekeepers and uh, pizza
shops and art gallery tradies really.
All sorts.
Anja: I love that because yeah,
I live in the northern rivers.
We have a butcher, which so
important for Bitcoiners.
We have a taco place, great tacos.
Um, and yeah, like we, we definitely
wanna onboard more merchants.
There's a few people in the community here
locally that are so passionate about that.
Um, do you have any tips for us how we
can, you know, get the ball rolling?
Nell: Well, that in itself
is, is really the key.
Um, you need people that
are gonna set up the flags.
They're gonna say, you know,
Bitcoin is money and Bitcoin
needs to be spent, right?
Because that's the first sort of hurdle.
Even the Bitcoiners that are super
passionate, your maxis, a lot of
them are just hesitant to spend it.
Um, and so getting over that barrier,
you need people on the ground that
are gonna say, we're, we're gonna,
we're gonna spend Bitcoin, we're
gonna support businesses that accept
it, um, prioritize those businesses.
If a business owner.
Sees, sees Bitcoin as, um, if they
see it as a selling point, they're
more likely to accept it, right?
Often businesses want to, um, they
wanna get themselves in a position
of difference from other businesses.
And so that's how they'll look at it.
Unless you've got your Bitcoin
owned businesses, they're super
passionate after that, it's really
a case of why would I accept it?
What am I gonna get from this?
And so that's why you need those
people that are out on the ground
saying, yes, Bitcoin is money.
Yes, I'm gonna spend it.
And actually it's better money than the
stuff that you're currently getting.
Um, you can even look at it like if you're
using Lightning, you, I'm not really
sure about Australia, but in New Zealand
to just use the Lightning Network, you
are already saving on transaction fees.
So even if you used a conversion service,
so for example, in New Zealand, we've
got a company called Stacked, and they
give the merchant the ability to accept
Bitcoin and keep it or convert it to
New Zealand dollars within the next day.
Um, which can sound, um, you know,
count and truth, but it's, it's a
foot in the door for businesses.
Um, and, and then even if they
aren't keeping that Bitcoin,
they're still saving money.
So they don't even have to do anything.
It doesn't cost 'em to set up,
but it just gets in that foot in
the door into the Bitcoin world.
And that is where the magic happens
because that's when you are hoping
they can get orange peeled and
become a sovereign individual.
And Bitcoin maximalist.
Anja: I love that.
Now, tell me about your journey.
Was it you or your husband
that got into Bitcoin?
Nell: I hate giving him credit
for anything, but I have to maybe.
Well, okay, so I, I steal his
clothes and, um, what else do I do?
Steal all his ideas, but, you know, he,
he orange pilled me because you Yeah.
You all school yourself, didn't you?
Anja: But me?
Nell: Yeah.
Anja: No, well, through
education, yes, in a way.
But, um, I was introduced to Bitcoin by
someone who was, uh, bought me, um, the
Bitcoin standard and, and yeah, that
was the book that just really, yeah.
Uh, loved it and the rest is history.
And, um, then I was, yeah,
just super curious about it.
I went, uh, saw him speak at Bitcoin
Alive and I was like, my first touch
point, I had no idea who Bitcoiners were.
I had this, I image that, you know,
someone who made it in Bitcoin was
some teenager that spent gaming,
you know, their time gaming in their
mother's basement and then just got
rich overnight and moved to Thailand
and, you know, lives in a bathrobe like
that was the, the impression I had.
Completely different from reality, right?
Like
Nell: Well, it's funny you say
that though, because I had a
conversation this morning about what
a Bitcoin is, 'cause everyone has
a perception of what a Bitcoin is.
And I think that the stereotypes
of the first generation, those
real early Bitcoiners, I have
found, seem to be quite true.
They tend to be quite, um, you know,
beautifully nerdy and, um, not as
extroverted as we might be, but
other generations have gone on.
Every Harvey has introduced a
different type of person and now
there isn't really a Bitcoin type.
We're all very different.
Um, but there is something, we've got a
little, little, so a little something.
Anja: Yeah, I, I'm definitely not as
cool as the early generation Bitcoin.
I'm, I'm definitely like school 2024.
But yeah, like I, I do have friends
who've been in it for a very long time,
and they are wonderfully, um, nerdy.
I had the pleasure of, um, just
recently when the Sydney Bitcoin hub
was opening, I flew over like the rest
of, you know, Bitcoin Maximalist around
Australia, who had to take that flight,
um, to migrate towards the Mecca.
I don't know.
But yeah, it was, it was really lovely.
Um, 'cause I, I, I stayed over JP
P'S house and JP P'S one of the, you
know, organizers of Sydney, Bitcoin,
Sydney, he started the whole thing.
He's been in Bitcoin since
2013 and he's, he's a nerd.
He's a nerd.
I like, I knew he was into
his vintage electronics.
I little, I did not know that his entire
house is floor to ceiling full of vintage
electronics and it's just like you, it's
like a time capsule going back there.
He repairs it, he gets these like
videos, sorry, not videos, the
radios from like 1920s and 1930s
and gets them working again.
So it was, it was fun.
It was like a museum.
I loved it.
Nell: Those early tech guys though,
they're, they're so fun to be around.
We, we've got,
I, I feel sorry for some people
because I, I'm very intense.
I've got a lot of energy and
I very rarely can control it.
And so when I'm in a room full of
people, you know, there's no filter.
And I've, and the last year I've been
working with these amazing guys and
they're, you know, first, first Gen
Bitcoiners and, you know, they're talking
about the technology and all this, and
I've just, you know, it is like being
I don't even know.
It's like being in this weird, uh, world.
I have no idea what they're talking about.
I have no idea what they mean, but it's,
but there's something there and I'm just
like, can you just dumb it down for me?
Please?
Just, you know, gimme,
gimme the bullet points.
I'm, I'm not from your time
around them and you learn so much
and like they do break it down.
Um, my friend Rob, he's actually
like a computer scientist and he's
amazing and I think he, we've learned
to kind of communicate between each
other where he can, you know, talk
at my level and, and, um, and it's
been amazing to learn from that.
Um, I did pivot a little bit.
That wasn't where my journey started,
but, uh, this is my problem, right?
It's the energy that comes in.
Anja: Let's just go with the flow.
Wherever this lands, we'll go there.
Yes.
So your husband essentially.
Yep.
Te tell me a little
bit about that journey.
Were you, like, were you the wife that
was like, you are Bitcoin, and then when
you saw the value and it's our Bitcoin?
Nell: Yep, for sure.
We, um, it was a, it was a
strange time because we, we, we,
so I became a mom 2019, right?
And that was the year before
everything changed, right?
And so 2019 was a crazy year for me
because I was kind of learning whole
heap, a whole heap of new stuff, just
being a mom and then just understanding
the way things are and then looking into
things I'd never looked into before.
So I always, I almost started
learning about stuff then.
Um, and my husband, he was already
looking into different ways of
making us money because, you know,
nowadays you can't just save and
Anja: exist
Nell: cash onto the mattress.
Everyone's gotta try and work
out how they're gonna get ahead,
how they're gonna make money.
And so he was looking into different
investing, um, in different investments
and shares and all sorts of stuff.
And he entered the
beautiful world of crypto.
So that was fun.
We lost a lot of money.
We learned the hard way.
And, um, and I, I guess I was quite
happy for him to be in that world
if he was gonna make us money.
But when we, 'cause we
actually got scammed.
Um, I also realized, well you, you,
you're quite happy for him to make money.
You, you've gotta take the
hits if he doesn't, right.
Um, and then he told me about Bitcoin
and I was a little bit apprehensive
because I'd already heard about Bitcoin.
Couldn't remember where, but
I just knew it wasn't good.
And we'd had this thing from crypto.
I had no reason not to, um,
not to support him on it.
Um, and he actually said to me,
he's like, look, all of the other
stuff aside, Bitcoin is different.
I've done so much research into this.
He'd learn the hard way from the crypto
stuff that he just do, dove in and
was just trying to obviously just,
um, make it big, real, real quick.
And then with the Bitcoin
thing, he just got obsessed
and I couldn't understand why.
Then one day he said to me, he's like,
now, you just need to look into it.
Please just look into it.
And I, I left it for ages.
I just didn't care.
It didn't interest me in any way.
I'd never been interested in money.
I'd never just even questioned anything.
And I can't remember the exact
video that I started watching, but.
There was a moment when they started
talking about, um, the gold, uh,
money coming off the gold standard.
And it was just that, that just
made me kind of question, and
I, I know I'm not the only one.
There's so many people that that's
their moment where it's like,
well, what is money backed by?
What is money?
Where does it come from?
And, and, and what gives it worth?
And I think because I'm, I've never
been an academic, I always assume that
someone in the room is smarter than me and
they're the ones that make the decision.
So it must all make sense
and it must all work.
And, and then realizing that
actually that isn't the case.
And this system that has been created
doesn't work, is completely corrupt.
And at some point in time is
gonna fail, is gonna burst.
And who's gonna, um, who's
gonna lose out from this?
Well, it's gonna be us.
It's gonna be anybody who doesn't
understand what's happening.
And then from then.
I became obsessed and just started
watching everything and understanding
what money is, where it comes from, what
makes one currency stronger than another.
Um, and also deep diving into, uh, the
history behind the corruption and how
people join up and made a plan for us all,
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Anja: well, I had a friend from
the US message me this morning
and he shared an article with me
about someone getting arrested over
speech, over words and going to jail.
And he's like, is this true?
I'm like, yes.
It's like, I remember when the UK was
going through this a few years ago and
we just, we were all like, the rest
of the world was watching and we're
like, oh no, this, this is not good.
And now it's happening here and
it's just, it's, yeah, it's, I don't
know, I don't know what's going on.
I'm just trying to, you know,
drink my tea and survive.
Nell: I, well the tea
didn't save us English, so
I, I, I saw, I saw the writing on
the wall for England in the uk.
I think because I was there, I was,
I was really surprised with, um,
'cause I've been in New Zealand for.
15 years, but lots of
friends in Australia.
So I felt like just being over here,
you keep an eye on what's happening.
And I've been really surprised
with how quickly Australia
has gone down that route.
Anja: Yep.
We, we are doing it.
We, like people saw it coming.
I was hoping that it wouldn't happen
as quickly as it, as it is happening.
It's just, it, it just feels, yeah.
Like who's, who's behind all of these?
Like, what's going on?
Why, why are we allowing this?
It's just, yeah.
It's, um, it's insane.
Nell: Does it, does it push
Australians into looking into things?
That's, that would be
the highlight, right?
That would be like, okay.
Anja: Yeah, I, I can definitely
see, um, there's definitely a
rise of populism in Australia.
A lot of, um, uh, political influences on
Instagram are just really starting to rise
because they're saying all the unpopular
things that the mainstream thinks,
but it doesn't say in polite society
like, so yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I don't know what's gonna happen.
Um, but the, yeah, it is just starting
to feel like just things are becoming
undone a little bit and, um, it's giving
forth, turning vibes very much, very much.
I don't know where this
will, this will all end.
We're, you know, planning the Bitcoin
Bay bash, or which is a bush bash,
but we're calling it Bay because.
Bay, um, in, in May.
And I think, yeah, a lot of us are very
nervous what that's gonna look like.
We were so excited for this event
and now we're like, well, are
we gonna have fuel by mid-May?
Nell: Would you expect people to
travel a long way for it or is there
Anja: Yeah, some people have
already booked flights in
accommodation a while back.
Um, but I have had friends
reach out saying, ah, I might
just leave it till last minute.
I'm like, I kind of understand,
but you know, come, anyway.
Nell: This goes back to this, the fear.
The fear drives everything that fear.
It was a fear uncertainty.
Um, index FUD.
Exactly.
People don't wanna travel because
they're afraid of the, of, we don't even
know what, and that's the same with.
It's just a mess.
It's all a mess.
Anja: Yep.
But let's talk about Bitcoin
because that is what's giving, uh,
us all hope through all of this.
It was nice to see a little,
um, uh, price hike this morning.
I, I saw someone on, on, on Twitter
post that famous meme's like, come
on, do something, and then the green
candle bursting through someone's head.
And it was like, yeah, I, I just
looked at the price again and I
was like, oh, yep, we're about 70.
Like, um, what was it about Bitcoin
that really you feel pulled you
in and made you obsessed with it?
Nell: I think the more people I met,
once I started reading up, I wanted
to go to the meetups and there were a
couple of local guys that were just real
consistent and some, some meetups they
would, it would just be them, you know,
sitting in a pub talking to each other.
They were so consistent.
They were so passionate and committed.
One of the guys, Rob, who I
just told you about before.
I got him to come and
speak at a Rotary meeting.
I thought he'll be a great speaker.
And you know, I joined the Rotary because
I had a business and I wanted to network.
And the demographic of the Rotarians
often, especially here, um,
business owners mostly retired,
but I thought, well, they're great,
you know, great mentors for me.
They can tell me about the
highs and lows business and
connecting with the right people.
But I looked up to them and I figured
that most of them have done pretty well.
So financially they'd be pretty savvy.
And so inviting Rob along, I was quite
excited about it because I thought,
wow, you know, you're all interested
in making money and you know, you
obviously have done well out of it.
So I was quite interested
to see how it would go down.
But that was really revealing
because none of them understood it.
Not even when he explained it,
none of them knew about, uh, money
not being backed by anything.
They were all.
Uh, not only normalizing
inflation, but almost encouraging
it, which really irks me.
Um, without bagging any particular
generation, a lot of their
generations seem to do well
out of, um, the money printing.
Um, and they, they were not interested.
And I'm talking about, you know, um,
most, I'm, I'm, I'm talking about them as
a group, but they didn't seem interested
in learning another way or even looking
into it for their children, grandchildren.
Um, and that was quite interesting
'cause I thought, wow, I
really looked up to you guys.
I thought that you had it sorted and
you were the experts, but actually
you don't know what money is.
You've just done well out of it.
Um, and then after that, it's just
going to all these meetups and
meeting all these different people.
And as we said before, there's
not one type of person.
You go to these meetups and
you'll meet an amazing tech guy.
You'll meet someone who's, um.
Who's just completely out
there in their freedom space.
Or you'll just meet someone
who just is an investor and
just looking into making money.
Or you'll just meet, you know, some random
mom that's got a couple of kids like me.
And every single person will teach
you something about something, but
you connecting them, connecting
with them on such a level, you
can't even really understand why.
And it's always a good feeling.
And every time I speak to a
coiner who goes to the Bitcoin
meetups, they all feel the same.
There's something there, there's
something that ties us to it.
Um, and so I just love it.
Every month we, we meet up
and we just have a great time.
And then because we've been
putting such a concentrated effort
into the basin, the meetups have
been strengthening and growing.
And so you're building this
real friendship and community,
which is becoming so much more
precious as the world becomes.
Disconnected, disconnected.
Any communities that you're
a part of become a whole lot
more important and wholesome.
So it's just lovely.
Um, yeah, we've got one next
week, so really excited.
Anja: I love this.
And yeah, I, I really resonate
with this so, so deeply.
Um, I've always loved having a sense
of community and no matter what kind of
hobbies I've been through in life, there's
something about the Bitcoin community
that is so different to all other
communities that I've been a part of.
Like, what do you think that is?
Because I'll give you, I'll
tell you a little story.
So I started talking
about Bitcoin late 2024.
So.
On LinkedIn and, and this is,
yeah, it was like not many people
in Australia talking about it.
Certainly everyone that I've ever worked
with was, you know, probably a little
bit surprised, um, you know, that I was
into Bitcoin, but I've attracted these
people who are Bitcoiners from all over
the world, and, and some of them have
done incredibly well in their corporate
careers, and now we're like friends on
Nora and we've never met these people,
but we share books and resources, and
you just have this like, connection with
some random person all the way across the
world, and you're like, friends, you know,
like, you just, you know, and I, it's
like, I'm sure you've done this as well.
Um, wherever I've traveled, no
matter what country I was in, I
just wanna go to Bitcoin meetup.
Like, you know, I'm in Athens.
I was like, let's meet up
with a Bitcoin or in Athens.
Like, what, what is it?
Why are we like this?
Nell: I, I had a sim.
The only similarity I can find is, uh.
And I can say this to you 'cause
Australia was crazy during the COVID days.
New Zealand was crazy
during the COVID days.
That was a a, a pivotal moment
in my life where I just started
going, what is going on?
The world is not as I,
is not as I know it.
Um, and just questioning things.
And there were other people around
me not, oh, I had to meet them.
I didn't have anyone in my inner circle
at that point, um, where I was seeking
out these people who shared my views.
And when I connected with them,
I really connected with them and
I'm still friends with them now.
And, and again, like we may not have
had um, obvious similarities, but
there was this freedom feeling of
we, we agree that this is strange.
We agree that we are not okay with this.
And we found this love and connection
just by being in this circle.
And I do think that there's similar
ties to the Bitcoin community.
It's like.
It's like an understanding.
Do you know what it's like?
Have you ever seen, um, avatar?
Anja: Yes, I have.
Nell: Right?
So that moment my hair's been rained
on, but you know when they get the
hair and then they connect it, right?
And then you go vaguely
Anja: remember.
Nell: Okay, so they get their
like hair tail thing and then
they connect it to each other.
Yeah.
Like this, right?
And then he goes, and then they
go, I see you, but it's not
I see you, it's, I see you.
There's so much depth to that,
um, that, that one sentence,
like you can't translate it.
It's a deeper understanding.
And I think that with Bitcoin, especially
when you look at it from more than just
money, it's, it's financial freedom.
It's what it can do for your life.
It can give you the ability to live your
life on your terms however you want.
Because given you.
Full sovereignty, if you use it
in the right way, when you meet
another individual that feels
that and is excited about what it
can do, you instantly connect And
yeah, it's quite, uh, contagious.
We, I met this guy, um, at Bitcoin.
Um, Vegas.
Went to Vegas this year.
He was on a stall.
I spoke to him for five minutes and
then we connected on Telegram and then
we needed to do a job the other day.
And I messaged him and it was
like, I'd known him for years
and then we had a video call.
We're on the call for an hour and a half.
Just who does that?
How do you, like There was no,
my hands are doing, but
it was so weird, but not.
Anja: I love it.
I actually hope that people who are
listening to this uh, episode are go to
watch it because you're making amazing
movements with your hands, with your hair,
Nell: rain.
We've not had the best weather.
Anja: Yeah.
I love it.
Um, I always thinking about, and this
is gonna sound a little bit nuts, but
like I was thinking about this, it's
like, how would I explain what's wrong
with everything to someone brand new and
using like an analogy or simplifying it?
Like, and one thought I was trying
to experiment with was, um, imagine
if like the government in the central
bank were your parents, right?
And were like, it was like the, from this
national scale to like a family scale.
It would like the way that everything's
been run and governed and the way
finances are manipulated, it, it, it
would feel like, you know, you, you're
coming from a very abusive family, right?
Like, but we accept it as normal.
Like there's nothing normal about
the way the world is set up.
Nell: The, there's that quote,
and I can't remember where it's
from, but it's, you accept the
reality in which you're presented.
You just, for us, we have
only known this system.
We have no comprehension of
what a system could be like.
Well we do.
'cause we're like, Bitcoin
is so we're in the cool club.
We can imagine what the
world could be like.
But you know, we, people don't question
it because it just is what it is.
And it's always worked to this point.
But everyday people are starting to
realize, like, it's like the cracks
are finally starting to show where
you go, hang on a minute, like.
How much is a life of bread?
That's something that I buy every day.
I know how much that costs,
and you're telling me it's $9.
Now you joking.
Anja: Someone took on Twitter, uh,
posted a a, a photo of a sourdough
costing $20 somewhere in Queensland,
and that's just like, get out of here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I did remember now what
I wanted to pick up on, and
that is like time of freedom.
Have you noticed, and this, I've only
noticed this about myself fairly recently,
um, you know, since getting into Bitcoin,
obviously we do for similar reasons.
We want that time freedom, right?
And, and.
In my personal life, I have seen
a bit of a shift in values in
terms of like being really, um,
hyper-focused on what it is that I
wanna give my time and attention to.
What type of people, what type of
jobs, what type of, um, activities.
I'm, I'm very selective, but I'm
also super, um, on the negative side.
Um, super sensitive to time theft.
And this is a concept that
I learned through yoga.
Um, when I did yoga teacher training
back in 2019, I wanna say I went to
Thailand, lived on an island for a
month, and learned yoga from like
these amazing people who flew in from
all over the world to teach it to,
to this, um, small class that we had.
And, um, yeah, it was, it was
the concept of time theft.
And it happens a lot.
Like it can happen in conversations
like, you know, you have one person
who's constantly dominating the
conversation and that are not, you
know, uh, giving you your time back.
It can happen with, um, at work.
You know, like there's just a lot of
different ways that time theft can occur.
Um, and yeah, like, have, have
you noticed that about yourself
or am I just crazy over here?
Nell: Because everything's energy.
Everything is energy.
Time is energy.
And.
And, and also, um, the, the negative and
positive attitudes is energy as well.
If you are talking to someone
and they're negative, they are
zapping that energy from you and
that is also zapping your time.
You know, it's a waste of time and it's,
it's possibly, it's possibly future
time that you're taking from me as well.
Because not only am I zapped now and
you've made me feel like crap, but
tomorrow I might be worrying, thinking
about what you just told me, or I could
be talking to someone who's got a positive
attitude and lifts me up and gives me
that energy to make the most of my time.
It's just everything is energy
and once you start seeing
it, I'm completely with you.
It's, do I wanna spend my time doing that?
Well, no.
And, and not only that, do I
have to, because again, that's
financial freedom, right?
Some people are locked in, they
have to spend their time doing
things that they don't want to do.
Because of finances or whatever, you know?
I mean, one example
would be children, right?
I was running a business,
I had these children.
I didn't have the ability to
keep them at home with me.
So I had to outsource that by
giving my children to daycare.
And it's normalized and encouraged in
society, constantly filled with guilt
because innately I didn't want to do
that, but that's what I had to do.
I didn't have the choice.
And once you have financial
freedom, you are able to choose.
I don't wanna spend my time giving,
giving my time and my children's
time away to someone else.
I want them here with me.
I want to enjoy this time together.
And that's so recent.
I missed out on so, so many precious
moments for my babies because I
didn't understand and I didn't have
the ability to have it with them.
Maybe I would've found a way if
I'd have known, but I didn't.
So.
But that guilt as well.
Yeah.
Guilt is a time sucker.
But again, if you don't have the
option to choose, then you've
just gotta go with what's there.
You know, the, the options
that are available to you.
That's, that's where it is.
We sent our son to school, just, I
guess we were still probably in the
matrix in that we couldn't understand.
I was doing a lot of research into
homeschooling and I still felt like
I wasn't the best person to do it.
I didn't have enough time.
I've got so much going on.
And society also tells parents that
they can't spend that much time with
their kids or make 'em go crazy.
And it's just not true.
We we're not designed
to be away from them.
These, these are their formative years.
They need to be around their parents.
And then again, I'm shaping them the
way that I see fit for the world, right?
My job as a parent is to guide
them and to teach them to be good,
wholesome people with integrity, right?
How can I do that?
If I'm outsourcing to other people?
I don't know what their moral compass is.
I don't know what they believe.
I don't know what they're
doing behind my back.
Not to say that, that there is
always issues, but the best way I
can do it is if I have full control.
Maybe I'm a control freak, but in my
kids, right, at least I have the option.
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Anja: Exactly.
Like he, I, I'll happily be
called, called a control freak.
In that context.
It's, yeah.
Nell: Yeah.
No, I've gone full circle though,
obviously, like my son, um.
I and I talk about guilt.
I think that part, I'm not, not to be
men against women or anything like that.
I'm, I'm not in any way like that, but
I think women today, we have a real
problem with guilt because society
has thrown us into this really strange
environment where back in the day,
we knew what we were supposed to do.
We knew what society expected of us.
Um, nowadays women are
expected to do everything.
They're expected to go to work, but
they're expected to have a family.
And if they're not doing one or
the other, someone's asking why.
And it's this constant guilt and
pressure and, um, misuse of time
because again, we are not sure what
we're supposed to be doing, and
it's really overwhelming and tiring.
We are just pressured into going
to work and over succeeding.
And then really it's like, well,
what, what are you passionate about?
How do you wanna spend your time?
None of that is really questioned.
It's always like, how are you gonna get.
Oh, it's just, this
just doesn't seem right.
It's like I said before, the
cracks are starting to show to
everyday people financially, right?
They're all starting to
say, this doesn't add up.
How am I gonna keep going this way?
We're already completely stretched.
If you look at the comparison
of a family 50 years ago
versus today, their pressure's
obviously a very different time.
But, you know, going from one person
making the money and having that
sort of lifestyle as today, there
people are looking around going, I
don't have any more time in my day.
How am I gonna make more money?
And how am I gonna
afford just general life?
The absolute basics.
It's my train of thought's
gone too, but, gone.
Gone.
Anja: Yeah.
I like, I, I think about this all the time
and I think about how the financial system
has completely thrown out the incentives.
In, in the direction that I imagine, I
can't speak for men, but I imagine that
with the current climate, the way things
are and having to have both people work,
um, can maybe be emasculating to some men.
I imagine.
Like, um, you know, I guess I don't know
from my experience when I've spoken to
other men in the Bitcoin space about
it, like one of the proudest things
for them was the moment where they
could retire their wife, essentially.
Yeah.
And you know, and I, I, I wonder if
this is something we're not speaking
about as a society and I, I don't know.
Nell: Well, again, it
goes back to options.
If, if you can't find a way
to increase your finances, you
have to rely on, on both people.
And it limits your options.
It limits everything.
I was talking to, um, a young girl,
I should say young girl, makes me
feel old, but she's early twenties.
She's done everything right.
She's actually Australian.
She's, she was pretty smart.
She was a, a, a chess, uh,
what's the, what's the term
for like, a super good chess?
She's not a chess pro, but she
was a chess champion growing up.
Really beautiful girl, academically
great and works in a bank.
Her boyfriend, um, has
gone out on his own.
He's a tradee, he's a builder.
They've come to town with some savings
and they're struggling to buy anything,
do anything, and they're both working
in pretty well, uh, pretty good
jobs, doing all the right things.
I was talking to her about Bitcoin
and I said this exact thing.
I said, look, you guys have done
everything that you should have
done, everything that society has
told you that you need to do to get
by, and you are still struggling.
That does not make sense.
That is not supposed to happen.
You guys are supposed to be flying,
you're supposed to be bawling, you
know, with all these opportunities
coming up, but you are not.
So that just shows to me that
something is severely broken.
And then for anybody who's not as
successful as they are, not as hungry,
um, not as, uh, not as motivated as them,
they're just gonna completely give up.
Where's the motivation to do anything?
Makes.
It makes no sense.
And then that makes me worry.
What's, what's our next
generation coming up?
Their work ethic.
Why bother?
I mean, I guess with AI and everything
as well, there's all this anxiety
around like, what is life gonna be like?
What, how are we gonna,
how are we gonna survive?
We can't afford today.
How are we gonna afford tomorrow?
We have a job today, which we
absolutely, desperately need, but
is that job gonna be there tomorrow?
You know, we're not looking forward to
the future in the way that we should be.
Anja: Yeah.
And, and that's the
heartbreaking part about it.
Like I have read a statistic
somewhere that like around 60% of
people believe that, um, working
hard no longer leads to, hello.
Um, for listeners who are not watching,
uh, a dog appeared on the screen.
So another reminder that you
should probably watch this
episode 'cause it's funny.
Um, but yeah, no, just to go back
to what I was saying, um, 60% of
people don't believe that working
hard these days, this day and age
does not lead to a better life.
Um, and that is just such a
grim statistic to think about.
Um, and again, a reason
why I do what I do.
And reason why you do, like, do you feel
motivated to educate people about Bitcoin?
Nell: Yeah, I guess going back to that
energy, those people, they're just gonna,
em admit the most negative energy and
that comes back to the rest of society.
And again, it's just, you know, I do
feel motivated because, and, and often
we sound like crazy people don't,
we we're like, you know, there is a
way, there is an answer, you know,
because we see it and it's just about
encouraging people to look into it.
You know, you don't, I, I
use the analogy about, um.
Being on the Titanic, and I, I've
said this before, if you imagine that
you're on, the Titanic is going down
and you are, you know that, um, the
ship's going down, you've seen the
iceberg, the ship's going down, but
you also know where the lifeboats are.
Are you going to, sorry,
my dogs are just losing it.
Are you, are you going to jump on the
lifeboat by yourself, save yourself and
your family, or are you gonna shout out
and just tell everyone else about it?
Like it doesn't actually affect your life
whether anyone else gets saved or not.
It makes no difference to you other
than your moral compass, right?
But of course, you're gonna do the right
thing and you're gonna try and encourage
many people, like, I know the way, and
you, you know, you can know the way too.
And I, I see that with bitcoin.
I know the money's broken.
I want you to understand that the
money is broken and why it's broken.
And what we often do, um, one of, one of
the, one of the things we're prioritizing
in a Bitcoin basis is education, right?
Because with education, it's
a gift to somebody, right?
Educate yourself and then you can seek the
answers that suit your life better, right?
And that may be Bitcoin, it
may be something else, right?
But that's up to you.
But we plant these flags and we
say, right, we are Bitcoiners,
and this is where, this is where
to go if you need it, right?
So if you need to talk to a
business owner, talk to this guy.
If you need to talk to a
tech guy, talk to this guy.
If you wanna just make more
money here, talk to this guy.
You want to dabble in crypto.
I don't know where you can go, but
I'm sure you can go over there.
You know, like it's just
find the right people.
I'm not saying that I know everything.
I'm not saying that I know all
the answers that I'm, you know.
Champion know it all.
I absolutely don't, and I think that
you end up being humble the more you're
in this space because you realize that
there's so many, there's so much to learn.
There's so many people around
you that you can learn from.
And it is just about directing people
to the place that they need to go to.
And the young people, they do seem
to be, um, in a state of hopelessness
and I can completely understand why.
So all we can do is direct them into
the space that they want to go to.
And I really, I, I do see a couple
of, um, young Gen X, isn't it Gen?
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Nell: The Gen X. I do see a couple of
them coming through and they seem to be
quite inspiring for the young generation,
which is quite hopeful because.
We need every generation for society.
It's not just about like, that one's
failed or that one's doing well.
Every generation is so important,
and that's where the fourth
turning comes in, right?
It's like, you know, the attitudes
of the different generation
impacts the whole of our society.
Anja: Yeah.
I can hear your dogs in the background.
So cute.
I love it.
I love it.
I'm a huge dog person.
Um, but I wanted to ask you a little
bit about, um, your local community.
Are you noticing more women
coming into this space?
Nell: Um, I noticing more women.
I, I think very slowly, as we said, the
different generations of Bitcoiners.
There's the ones like us where we have
been introduced to Bitcoin by someone
that we trusted or, or liked at the time.
Right.
Um, and, and that's where most Bitcoin.
That's where most
Bitcoiners come from, right?
You need to come from a place of trust.
So it's a friend or a family member
or, or a loved one because you, you
know, they're not trying to scam you.
You know, they're not
trying to sell you anything.
They're so passionate about something
and you, all you're doing is just giving
them your ear and listening, right?
Which is how we got into it.
So there are women coming into the
space very, very slowly and they seem
to, all the ones I know have come in
through their partners or their husbands.
Um, but it's still cool to see
because to me, anyone, any new
demographic coming through just
means that more people are gonna have
access to the information as well.
Anja: I love watching people's journey.
Um, 'cause where, you know,
when I was new to Bitcoin, I
didn't know what I didn't know.
And I also haven't
witnessed a newcomer myself.
But now I am witnessing people who are
like entering now, and I love that.
I'm kind of watching them
and imagining that I was like
that in the beginning as well.
Like, you know, someone will
kind of have their eyes open to
Bitcoin and then they'll come in.
It's like, okay, how can I get involved?
What can I do?
Can I run meetups?
Can I start a podcast?
Like, do just wanna help
in any way that they can.
Um, and I just love seeing
that energy come in.
Um, but I'm curious to know, do
you see, what role do you see women
playing particularly, what do you
think are the strengths, um, that
women can bring to the space?
Nell: Uh, maybe trust, I mean, and not
to say that men aren't trustworthy,
but it just, well, I mean some, but
I think like, it's going back to the
more different types of demographics
we have talking about it, the more
trust there is because people are gonna
listen to different types of people.
Right.
Um, if you, how, how, how, it
is like a team effort, isn't it?
You know?
My friends who I know from the playground,
for example, they'd be more likely to
listen to me because they relate to me.
And that's as simple as that.
And their husbands might be
doing whatever they're doing.
Usually the husbands have got
the, the finances, um, in control,
or at least they think they do.
Um, and so the women, they seem to
like come out to me and like, not
secretively, but they want to explore it.
And they, and I'm like the safe
voice for them and I can explain
it to a way where they don't feel
intimidated because they possibly
don't understand any sort of investing.
I don't seem to see that many
women investing in New Zealand.
Anyway, I don't know.
I was talking to my friend who,
um, is a financial advisor and I
asked him about it and I said, oh,
do you see many women in investors?
I like, I personally don't know
many people, or they don't tell me.
And he said, to be honest, the most, um.
Most of the women they
see have come from a need.
So they're like divorced, right.
Or, um, they're very, very young
and they're single and you know,
they're, they're motivated.
But most have, I've just never
been interested in investing
until they absolutely have to.
And they're like, shit, I need to do
something, you know, to set myself up.
And I thought that's quite interesting
because, you know, the men, there was
no sort of one type of, um, age range.
He just said it's just all, all men.
Anja: Yeah.
I'll tell you what I think is a
little bit like what I'm noticing
that women bring to the space.
Um, I think, yeah, like you
said, that softer approach.
Um, I also think women are more probably
like relationship oriented than men.
Can I say that?
Um, so, so yeah, I think, I don't know,
like, I just, I feel like it's such a
beautiful balance here where I live in
Northern Rivers, there's like literally
50 50 mix of men and women, and it
just, it just has a nice feel to it.
I don't, it's hard to explain,
and I hope that, um, people, you
know, come to our event in May
and experience it for themselves.
Um, it's also really beautiful to see
more families coming, you know, like
now, I, I imagine like back in the day
it was mostly men coming to meet up
with other men to have a stake at a pub.
But now it's like they're bringing
their wife, they're bringing their
kids, and it's really beautiful to
see that it is, you know, we, we all,
um, need to understand money from
first principles and if we can get
the whole family involved, it's, yeah.
It's such a beautiful, um, feeling.
But do you have an event?
Nell: Yes, we do.
We have, yet, we are in the early stages
of having plan a conference in Queenstown.
Bitcoin basin, so it'll
be this time next year.
So excited.
Anja: What are you guys planning?
Do, do, tell me a little bit about it.
Like anything that you
can share at this stage.
Is there like a vision for it?
Like, is it gonna be one day, three days?
What's the deal?
Nell: What can I tell?
I'll probably get in trouble,
but, um, it will be, it'll be
more focused on sovereignty.
So the, the conference is around
the sovereign pillars of your life
and the thread is Bitcoin because
as we said before, Bitcoin is the
key to all the options of how you
wanna live your life and how you
can live your life on your terms.
So that's all I can really probably say
other than we want all the Aussies there.
Anja: I love that you did, and I
imagine like a lot of the bitcoiners
from Australia would be very interested
to attend and, uh, I'm one of them,
so, you know, obviously now that we're
friends, I, I have to come, right?
Nell: Yeah.
When conference conference is next year.
Anja: Yeah.
Um, well, I'm gonna obviously in
the show notes, share your contact
so people can reach out to you.
Um, anything else that you wanna
drop in, but let me know if there's
any final thoughts that you'd
like to share with my audience.
Nell: My final thoughts
would be, Australians all
need to come to New Zealand.
There's way too many Australians
that have not left Australia, and
I know it's a beautiful country.
But come and spend your SATs,
spread those Australian SATs around.
Um.
That's all I've got.
Anja: Yep.
I'll look, I, I'll make a little promise.
I will actually reach out
to a few people directly.
I think that there's quite a few
people that would be very interested
in coming, so I'm one of them.
Um, I know that a few people regularly
travel to conferences and I think
it will be in very easy sell.
Nell: Yeah.
I, I think, I think it will just
because of how beautiful it is here.
Anja: Um, but I do have a tiny
little request, um, if I may, um,
because, you know, obviously we will
come to, uh, Queenstown next year.
I would love for you guys to
organize like a little, you
know, um, a tour of some sorts
Nell: so, of Queenstown.
Anja: Yeah.
Like just something, something like,
um, we, we've started doing that
for the Bush bashes that we do.
So, you know, the local organizers
will organize like a waterfall
hike, uh, a morning run.
It can just be anything like,
I think that'd be awesome.
Nell: Yes.
Anja: If I may.
Nell: Well, we actually have, um,
one of our, uh, team members, he.
He's building a, so one of our key, um,
team members is building a tourism, a
Bitcoin tourism, uh, excursion business.
So we'll be the guy.
So he is just setting it all
Anja: up.
Amazing.
Nell: Yeah.
Amazing.
Boom.
Anja: Done.
All right.
Well thanks so much for your time.
Thanks for coming on.
Honest Money, and I really
look forward to this event.
Nell: Me too.
I've loved this.
You're just as funny as I
thought you were gonna be.
Anja: Thank you.
Nell: Funny, like, funny, funny.
Anja: All right.
Thanks Nel.
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