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On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
Jen Fisher (00:00):
Hi WorkWell listeners! I’m really excited to share that my TEDx Talk, The Future of Work, is out! It combines my personal story with practical ways we can all come together to create a better world of work by focusing on human sustainability. Just search for Jen Fisher TEDx on your preferred search engine to watch my talk and please join me in the movement to make well-being the future of work by sharing it with your networks!
What's the most powerful way to influence and inspire people? It's storytelling. Stories are a powerful communication tool that can captivate hearts and minds. But finding the right story and telling it in a captivating way isn't always easy.
Jen Fisher (00:47):
This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher and I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things purpose, wellbeing, and human sustainability. I'm here with Karen Eber, she's the c e o and Chief storyteller of Eber Leadership Group. She's also an author, speaker, and consultant on culture transformation and leadership development. Her TED Talk. How your brain responds to stories and why they're Crucial for Leaders continues to inspire Millions. In Karen's book The Perfect Story, how to Tell Stories that inform influence and Inspire makes storytelling accessible with practical and impactful steps for anyone to tell the perfect story for any occasion. Karen, welcome to the show.
Karen Eber (01:38):
Thank you for having me.
Jen Fisher (01:40):
Absolutely. I feel like this is a long time coming. I'm so excited to talk about you and to talk about your book. So let's get into it. Tell me how you became so passionate about storytelling and then what inspired you to write a whole book about it.
Karen Eber (01:57):
I backed into this unexpectedly. I have had a career in companies like Deloitte and other places where I was on the other side of the desk inside companies in roles as a head of culture ahead of learning. And I was always trying to persuade people that had the ability to say yes for investment in technology or in learning programs to make those investments. And the challenge was maybe one or two people had the power to say yes and everyone had the ability to say no around them. And I started using stories to try to persuade people and slow the nose. And little by little I realized that it was such a dynamic way to connect with people and help them put themselves in situations they hadn't considered. And then I did this little talk that went on Ted and, and took off. And I had more and more people ask me, how do you do this?
Karen Eber (02:56):
How do I become a more dynamic communicator? How do I tell more stories and leaned more into breaking down how to do this and perhaps more importantly showing what's going on in the brain and how you can use that in your story. So I wasn't a child that said I'm gonna grow up and be a storyteller. I backed into it because I was, you know, getting that interest, which is also how the book came to be. I had literary agents knock on my door when the talk went on Ted, and they said, we think there's a book here. And I said, I'm so glad to hear that 'cause I have ideas. And we went from there. So I feel like there's this opportunity to evolve the conversation on storytelling and show people how you can use the science to tell a great story.
Jen Fisher (03:44):
Yeah, absolutely. And just for the listeners I mentioned the name of her talk in the intro and it's not a little talk, it's a big talk and everybody should listen to it. So just that shout out there, but I want to, I mean, you kind of talked about your own story of like, you know, you used storytelling to get to more yeses or to slow down the nos. Was that intentional? Did you research how did tell stories to slow down the nos or was it just something that you started doing and started seeing success and then you got more passionate about it?
Karen Eber (04:19):
There was a moment much earlier in my life that showed me how impactful stories could be. So I have two different color eyes, which it's a shame. This is in video 'cause everyone then wants to see them. I have a brown eye and a green eye and well,
Jen Fisher (04:33):
That's why you have to go watch your talk 'cause then they can see them .
Karen Eber (04:36):
Yeah. But it's, it's a distracting thing because you don't normally see people with different color eyes. And when I'm in a conversation with someone, I could tell the exact moment when they would notice, Hmm. The words they were saying would slow down and their eyes would bat back and forth between mine. Like they're watching a tennis match and then they just stop mid-sentence. Then they say something like, did you know you have two different color eyes ? And you know, when this happens to you for the 50th time, you, you get a little punchy. And I would always then be like, no, you're kidding. And then that is usually followed by, I know a dog that has that which always like, thank you . Like what do I do with that? David Bowie, he has two different color eyes. No, no, he didn't. He had a dilated contact.
Karen Eber (05:27):
He had a dilated pupil from an accident. But it, there would be this script that happened every time and it would get very quickly into a barrage of questions like, do your, what color your parents' eyes? Do you see different colors out of each eye? And because it was happening so much, it took this thing that was my most favorite thing about myself and it made it feel kind of not fun. Mm-Hmm. I decided one day I was done and I told a story. So the next time I got the did you know you have two different color eyes, how did that happen? I started describing how as kids, we all have that box that we throw crayons into. Some are perfect, some are peeled, some are broken. I was in my room coloring with that box of crayons and I was really hungry.
Karen Eber (06:15):
One night I really sniffed a crayon and thought it smelled pretty interesting, didn't smell bad. And I took a nibble and it tasted pretty good and I ate the crayon and I liked it so much. I ate all the green crayons in the box. And the next day I woke up and my eye was green. And so I tell that and then I wait. And the whoever, whomever I would say this to would look at me completely unsure whether I was making something up or why I was saying this. And inevitably it shifted the energy. Mm-Hmm. because they would start laughing. I would admit that of course it was a fake story. I did not eat the crayons. But it helped them recognize that they too played a role in this really awkward moment. And we would have a different conversation and we would actually have a moment of connection.
Karen Eber (07:03):
It was something that 30 years after the fact, people would say to me, every time I see crayons, I think of you. And so I realized in that moment you can use a story to shift energy, to create a connection or a relationship and to change thinking or to change an awkward moment. And so because I had that early on in my life, when I got into these professional roles and I wanted to help someone consider a different idea, I would use stories. And it was something that I practiced and cultivated and found that people were really responding to that information in a different way to make decisions and, and just started to do it more and more.
Jen Fisher (07:44):
And so I, I love that story. Like every time I hear you tell that story, I love that story . So, but let's talk about like there's a real science behind storytelling or doing storytelling. Well, I guess I should say. So can you talk about the science behind it and when it's done right or done well, why it's such a powerful tool.
Karen Eber (08:07):
There's layers of science. So I'll talk about the first three pieces, which is what's happening when you are listening to stories versus information in our brains. We've got this walnut size space on the side of our head called Broca's area or we're Nikki's area. And this is where when we're listening to someone speak or give a presentation or go through data, the words that are being said turn into meaning. We're just hearing things, we're comprehending them. And that's it. So about the size of a walnut is activated in your brain when you start listening to a story. So if I talk about how I was just on the beach and the warm sand was pushing through my toes as I walked across it and the waves were crashing on shore like a symbol and I felt the I could taste the salt on my lips, your brain is lighting up all over.
Karen Eber (08:59):
So from a real estate perspective, when you talk, tell a story, you're using it more real estate in the brain than just communicating. So that's first thing that is interesting, but what do you do with that? Second is that when someone is telling a story, we feel empathy towards them. This is when you have a offsite or a treat or a team meeting or a team dinner and you are listening to someone talk about an event in their life or share something and you come away and you feel a little closer to them. It's because when we hear someone tell a story, we feel empathy towards them. That empathy creates a release in oxytocin, which is that bonding chemical that we get in response to a situation where we feel comfortable around someone. The more oxytocin that's released, the more trust we have towards that person.
Karen Eber (09:51):
And this silent signal goes off in our brain when we have oxytocin release that says, this person is safe to be around. And so by listening to someone tell a story, we undergo a chemical shift where we do feel more trust towards them because of the act of them telling a story. And the third piece is that it impacts our decision making. We love to think that we make rationally based decisions, but unfortunately or fortunately our decisions are made emotionally. There's been tons of research from different neuroscientists. But what happens is as we take in information through our senses, it's almost the same thing as when you take a photo on your phone. So take a photo on your phone, swipe up and stored on the photo, is the date, the location, the f stop, the size. Like all this stuff is immediately stamped on the photo without you doing anything.
Karen Eber (10:47):
And if you wanted to recreate that photo, you could put dial up all the same settings. Well, something similar happens with our senses. We take in information through our senses and they get stamped with emotion and then they get stored with long-term memory. So when we're going to make decisions, our brain goes through this library of files to see have we done this before? Is this related to something we've done before? And uses that to inform decisions and predictions. And so when you're telling a story, you're helping create those memories, but you're also helping create connections to them. And it is impacting when it is time to make decisions. And our brain goes for where those emotional stamps are. It is helping impact those choices. So this is why we're buying the car because we love the color, but we're rationalizing it because of the gas mileage. We're not making decisions based on logic alone. Emotions play a role and we connect to things emotionally through stories. We connect to data, we connect to information. And so that's a start of the science. There's so much more, but it's not only going to use more real estate, it's gonna lead to an increase in trust and it's gonna impact the decisions that we make. It's gonna connect us to information and help us see things that we can't unsee.
Jen Fisher (12:05):
Okay. So hear you. But telling a compelling story isn't always easy. And in particular in the business world, you know, everybody seems to be drawn to data. So let's talk about a couple things. What's hard about storytelling but also what's the right amount of data versus story that finds people's emotions or, or you know, connects with them and on an emotional level? Can we talk a little bit about that? 'cause I feel like at least in the world that I work in, we spend a lot of time on the data and probably a less, a lot less time on the actual other pieces of the story.
Karen Eber (12:53):
What I would say is you always wanna start with your audience and what it is that you want them to know, think, feel, or do after hearing the information. Whether that's data, story, information. What most often happens when we have data is that we collect huge amounts of data and then put 'em in a super cool tool like Tableau or something that helps us visualize it so that we can see different cuts of it and see different ways to represent it, but that isn't necessarily thinking through what questions we're seeking to answer with it. Hmm. And so one of the challenges that happens with storytelling and data is that you wanna start before you actually collect data to get really clear on what are the questions that we're trying to answer or decisions we're trying to make or things that we're trying to monitor. You wanna have a a purpose statement of what is it that you're solving for and then what are you gonna collect to see?
Karen Eber (13:56):
Because then as you get data you can answer those questions. What most often happens is we come at it the other way. We've got the terabyte of data and we're trying to see all the different cuts of it. And so getting grounded in what questions you're trying to answer, what it's meaning to inform is the first step because there's no story without understanding that. Once you understand that, you can then look to see what you have and how you can structure it. When I talk about storytelling with data, I'm not suggesting you only tell a story and you don't use data, but you wanna get really clear on the purpose for what you're doing and not just share all the data that you have. There is usually a decision or something you're monitoring or a discussion that the group needs to have that it can inform. And once you get clear on that, you can lay out a structure for the data.
Jen Fisher (14:51):
What is it about storytelling that feels hard or why does it feel hard?
Karen Eber (14:55):
I think people don't recognize that there are a series of steps and there is science behind it that you can lean into and leverage. Mm-Hmm With any type of presentation skills. It feels hard until you realize there are specific things that you can do that impact the person's experience. And the same is true for storytelling. It feels easier to get up and speak and unfortunately we live in a world where we're working on a presentation and tinkering on the formatting for hours and maybe thinking about five what we're gonna say for five minutes. And that's why it feels hard because we need to invert that a little bit and think about what we wanna say, think about what we're trying to help our audience get to and then create a visual that supports it when we do it the way we're doing it today. Yeah. It's gonna feel really hard to come up with a story in five minutes. You need to give yourself a little more time to be able to work through that and work through the steps.
Jen Fisher (15:54):
You start with the story as opposed to end with it .
Karen Eber (15:58):
You start with the audience and what it is that you wanna get them to. And then it becomes easier to lay out a story and what you can do. And you know, we touched on half the neuroscience. There's a another piece of science that is really important, which is that our brain is going to respond to information differently than stories. And there's what I call the five factory settings of the brain that help us understand what's happening in our brain when we're listening to stories. But more importantly, what do you then put in the stories to make sure that the brain is actually engaged? 'cause It's not enough to tell a story the way you tell and makes a difference. And we've all sat in enough meetings that have been so not enjoyable, so boring with terrible stories that we know that's true. And so if it's okay to touch on a couple of those Yeah, of course.
Karen Eber (16:49):
Factory settings. So the first factory setting is that your brain is lazy. The number one goal of the brain is to get you through the day alive. Right? It wants you to do things the exact same way you did yesterday because guess what you lived. So let's just do it the same way. And the reason why is that the brain is the largest consumer of calories in the body. It uses 20% of the calories, most of any organ in the body. And the majority of those are spent making predictions, not just of the environment around you and making sure you're safe, but for things like how do you place your your feet to stand up out of a chair? The body is constantly making these predictions because the faster it can predict, the faster it can save calories because your brain never wants to go bankrupt if calories, right?
Karen Eber (17:37):
If it goes bankrupt, you're not alive. So it's always looking for where can I save calories? Where can I take a break? So those moments in the meetings where you drift off, that's your brain taking a break. It's natural, it's a moment that is needed because we can't be on fully focused all attention, all systems high all the time. And that's why we do expect some meetings to have some boring moments and we drift off. That's part of it. But what that means in a story is if it isn't compelling, engaging, if there aren't some specific details or, or if it's really flat, the brain is gonna to just disappear. It's gonna take a moment and take a break. This is what happens on those nights when you come home and you're tired and you think like, I do not wanna think. So you put on that show or movie you've seen so many times and you binge because you don't wanna think your brain wants a break. When there is something that is unexpected, that is complicated, that is attention grabbing, your brain is forced to spend calories. And so this is an easy one to think about in a presentation or in any setting, you wanna keep the mindset of I want the brain to spend calories, I wanna put in the details that are gonna make the brain hit the speed bump and go, huh, oh, we better pay attention here. And that happens when there's some interesting pieces that are in the story.
Jen Fisher (19:04):
Hmm. So then when, like, is there a right time or a right occasion to tell a story?
Karen Eber (19:13):
I find that there's a reluctance to tell stories, especially at work thinking that no one else is doing it. No one has asked me to do it. I I will stand out as weird if I do it, I am I gonna tell too many stories. And what I would say is that most of the time those are all wrong. It's not a is there an occasion to do it? It's a do it because people aren't telling them and they're missing an opportunity. No one at work is going to say, Jen, will you please tell us a story? it just, it's not bedtime and no one's asking you to pick the book off the shelf and read it. But when you do it, you are forcing the brain, the audience's brain to spend some calories. You are starting to harness more of their attention.
Karen Eber (19:59):
You are doing things to connect them to it and, and feel a part of it and you get a greater impact. So instead of is there a right time or a wrong time, I would say do it. The, the only times I say it's, it's probably not needed as much is when you are working with data and it's a regular standing meeting and you're looking at the same things. There's no outliers in your data, there's no big decision being made. It's just the the weekly scan of the dashboard. Yeah. You don't necessarily need a story there, but if you are approaching a decision around the data, tell a story, use the opportunities to try and see what people respond to.
Jen Fisher (20:40):
Okay. So, got it. But what if I don't know of a story, like how do I find a good story? Like if I'm struggling on what story to tell, should I have like pre-packaged stories that I tell? Or like how do you get to that point where you're like, oh, I have a story I wanna share
Karen Eber (20:59):
That feels like the most uncomfortable part. Where am I gonna find a story? Where is it meaningful? It's easier than people think and my advice is to start building a list of ideas before you ever need to tell a story. So if you do back yourself up in the five minutes before a meeting and you're trying to come up with a story to tell, it's gonna be a lot harder because you're under stress and your brain is not as creative in that moment. But if you do have a list already and you scan it, ideas are gonna pop into place. So if it's okay, I would love to show an example with you asking you two questions that I know you're not prepared for. But it'll demonstrate how you can find ideas for stories. Are you game?
Jen Fisher (21:40):
I'm game. But if it's not good, then Jesse's cutting it out. .
Karen Eber (21:44):
No, it's all good. The first question's gonna feel weird and uncomfortable and just go with it. First question is tell us about your childhood.
Jen Fisher (21:54):
Tell you about my childhood. I had a, like, I think normal happy childhood. I was born in Birmingham, Alabama. I lived there till I was eight and then my father got transferred in his job to South Florida. So we moved to Miami and that's where I remember like the majority of my childhood was like growing up in Miami. Growing up in a really tumultuous time in Miami in the eighties. In the mid eighties. Which for those of you who know what cocaine, cocaine cowboys are, it was kind of the cocaine cowboys Miami Vice you know, I'm dating myself, but Miami vice type of vibe in Miami. But you know, that didn't, I don't, I remember it but I don't remember it like impacting my childhood in an adverse way. I think I had a very normal, perhaps very entitled childhood. I, you know, my, my parents great parents, they were always there when I needed them. Perfect.
Karen Eber (22:59):
Yeah, perfect. Awesome. I wasn't expecting cocaine, cowboys, . So that's extra fun. Okay, so that question was intentionally broad and really hard
Jen Fisher (23:07):
To answer. It'll probably get cut out by risk .
Karen Eber (23:10):
So that question was intentionally broad on purpose. So now I'm gonna ask you a different question. What sound or smell reminds you of home?
Jen Fisher (23:19):
Oh, what sound or smell reminds me of home seafood gumbo.
Karen Eber (23:24):
Ooh, nice. So even just hearing that, I can imagine that there's like 10 stories of making it with a loved one or eating it right. So many different things. So let me explain what we just did. The first question tell me about your childhood is vague. Your brain hears it and says what part? Like when I was five, when I was 17, I was
Jen Fisher (23:45):
Like, where am I going with this ?
Karen Eber (23:46):
Exactly. Exactly. And the same thing happens when someone's trying to figure out a story. Like where do I go? I don't know. My brain can access like so many things I don't know what to do. Most people respond very similar to what you did. They give the location of where they grew up. They maybe describe the family members, you know, type of housing. But it's a very generalized answer because the question is so broad, it's too hard for the brain to know what to access. But I ask you something more specific, like what sound or smell reminds you of home and you immediately hone in on something specific, in your case the gumbo, which could lead to so many stories. So the same thing happens when we're looking for stories. When you're having a hard time figuring out ideas, you want to put constraints in place, you wanna think of maybe professional experiences, types of things you answer in a job interview, like best job, worst job inspiring leader mistake.
Karen Eber (24:45):
You know, something funny that happened. But you don't wanna limit it just to professional experiences. You wanna think of personal experiences, maybe a vacation adventure that went awry podcasts that you love, places you love visiting. And what happens is you put these different, you ask yourself these prompts or constraints and you build a list without worrying about when you're going to use 'em. But, and without writing the full story. But you put a bunch of these ideas down before you ever need to tell a story. Because when it, then when you have the opportunity to tell a story, you start scanning the list and you think of, okay, given my audience and what I want them to take from this, which one of these lets me build a story that helps me, whatever that outcome is. Sometimes there's nothing on the list that does, but the act of scanning it prompts the idea that you want. And so starting that list and using constraints to build it and maintain it is the easiest way to make sure you always have stories to tell.
Jen Fisher (25:45):
So I wanna go back to something that you said in the beginning because the stories that you tell don't always have to be factual or true, right?
Karen Eber (25:55):
I encourage people to tell true stories. Okay. You don't always have to tell your own stories. The reason that I think it's better to tell true stories is that people sniff out manipulation. They can tell if something doesn't feel true. And if you're telling a story that's made up and it's not very clear, it's made up. Like obviously I told the story about my eyes, it's made up. It's very clear that it's made up. They feel like they're being manipulated. Okay. And no one likes that. So when you're doing a visioning session as a team, of course you're making up a story about a future state that's obvious. You know, sometimes you change some factors in a story like a name or details to keep things anonymous. But I always find it's better to use real stories. They don't have to be stories about your own experiences.
Karen Eber (26:39):
I always say that stories are always personal, meaning you are telling it and you are bringing a perspective and there's a reason why you're telling it even if it's not your own story. So you're making it personal by that. But personal doesn't mean private. Each person decides what is private and not going to be shared with others where their tolerance is. You know, I, I worked with a woman who was on a C-suite team and she was preparing for a big presentation and as we were going through working on the story, she said, there's just one thing. I don't wanna tell any stories about my family or anything about that because I work with all men. Most of their children are out of the home. I feel like they don't relate to where I am and I don't want anything to be a negative have them perceive anything negative about me and to her that that was private for someone else, they would love to share a story about their child. And so I think it's up to each person to figure out what that is. And through the course of telling it, you make it personal as to why you're the one telling it.
Jen Fisher (27:47):
So, and you touched on this a little bit, right? Like you kind of make your list of potential stories and then how, like what is the process for formulating that into a compelling story? 'cause I could, you know, tell you the story as it happened or tell you the story in kind of a bland way or in a matter of fact way. But are there things that we can do? My husband would say it's called embellishing . But are there things that we do that like, that help you formulate that take, you know, take the story and make it compelling to get the point across that you're trying to communicate?
Karen Eber (28:28):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not even embellishing, it's digging into specific details so that we feel like we are there with you. Mm-Hmm like we are seeing, hearing, smelling, experiencing what is going on. And that one little detail can make all the difference. So you're getting ready to make a presentation. You wanna tell a story, you first start with your audience. Who is it that I am talking to? What do I want them to know, think, feel, or do after this? Where are they at today? And what might be an obstacle and where I wanna get them to get really clear on that. 'cause Then you take that and you look at your list of ideas and say, which one of these helps me do that? That's your starting place because your story should be for that audience and you wanna get clear on it from there.
Karen Eber (29:22):
Excuse me. You build out a basic story structure a skeleton, which is gonna make it be, it's going to help organize it in your head so that it's easy for you to tell, but it's gonna make it easy for the audience to hear. But from there is exactly what you're talking about. There's different things that you wanna do to engage the brain. So you wanna give a really specific detail about what is going on in that moment, in that situation. So the opening story to my Ted talk is about this woman who drops a phone down an elevator shaft and I talk about it hitting the floor in the basement below, hearing a thud in it or how she's going to to press the button on the elevator or where the certificate is inside the elevator. It's little specific details like that that are gonna put the person next to you and have them be picturing what's happening in the story. Your goal is really to get the brain engaged and and feeling like they are a part of that story.
Jen Fisher (30:23):
And are there things we shouldn't do? Like are there storytelling mistakes and how do we avoid them?
Karen Eber (30:31):
The biggest is that we tell the stories that we wanna tell and not the stories that our audience wants to hear. We have a story that we love. You know, it's like our greatest hit story that maybe it works for different client and customer interactions or maybe we just love telling it to friends and family and it's the story we always tell. But that doesn't mean that that is what your audience needs. And when you're telling the story you love to tell, you are just like that relative at the holiday table that is just telling the story that feels like it's on a script and everybody's mouthing along 'cause they've heard it so many times. What you wanna make sure you're doing is thinking of your story, story in service of your audience. Like who is this that I'm telling this to and why am I telling it?
Karen Eber (31:18):
Because each time you tell a story, it should be slightly different for that audience, even if it's the same story. That's probably the biggest offender of, you know, we all have things, experiences that we love and we wanna share and we're telling them for us and not for the audience. And as soon as you do that, that lazy brain is gonna kick in and the person's gonna start working on their grocery list and stop listening. That's the biggest offender. The second biggest offender is that we don't leave ourselves enough time to work on the story. And so I had someone say to me, but it's just so much easier to put up all the data and just talk to it. It may be easier for you to do as the speaker, but it doesn't make it easier for the listener to understand or come away with.
Karen Eber (32:04):
And so what we think is working often isn't, we're not as effective in our communications as we really think we are. When you leave yourself a little bit of time and you get the chance to work on the story, you can make sure that it is going to focus on what the audience needs, that you do have a little bit of time to work it to be the most engaging, and that you get a chance to step away and come back to it, which helps you see things that you didn't see. Every story doesn't require that. There are times to tell stories in under a few minutes notice. You know, we do it with friends all the time and that's completely fine. But I think of it as there's a, a climbing ladder of escalation of the bigger stakes like the TED stage or a big presentation. The more time you wanna leave yourself for it, you know, the, the story that you include in a coaching conversation, you don't need as much time, but the more time you give yourself, the better that story will be.
Jen Fisher (33:01):
So how do I know? 'cause I think this is something that I struggle with is like, how do I know if I'm telling the story for me as opposed to for the audience? Like is there, like, are there signs? Like how do I know, right? Like if the story is the story, how do I know if I'm telling it? 'cause It's the story that I wanna hear or because I like telling it versus it's the story that I think will help move the audience.
Karen Eber (33:32):
When you start by looking at the audience that you're giving it to and you, you answer a question for each of these, what is it that I want this audience to know, think, feel, or do because of this story? Where are they today? What's their mindset today? And what might be an obstacle that's giving you a snapshot into who that audience is. So then as you get your story, you can look at that and say, can this story help me do that? Can this story help me get that outcome? Can I move them forward with the the potential obstacles with this story? If you can't see any of that, then you might be telling the story just for yourself. But as long as you can see yeah, there's enough here, then you're good. You wanna have excitement for the story. If you don't, it will come through.
Karen Eber (34:23):
You wanna be able to, to really enjoy it and have something about it that excites you because that makes a difference. You know, I love the story that Billy Joel does not sell the front row to his concerts because he got tired of scalpers selling it to people that weren't fans. And they would, he gave an interview and he said they would sit there all bored and look at him and be like, entertain me piano man. would be just very frustrated. And to him it was so draining because he has played piano man 9,009 million times probably. Yeah. And so he decided, I'm not gonna sell these tickets. I'm gonna give them to the fans in the back who wanna be here who are so excited because I'm gonna get energy from them, they're gonna get energy from me and it's gonna create a better experience. And that's what he does because it's an exchange of energy. Stories are an exchange of energy. So there has to be something there that you are interested in telling or sharing with the audience. Otherwise it will be flat. Just like piano Man would be incredibly flat and boring if he didn't find a way to bring energy into it.
Jen Fisher (35:31):
And so you can still tell, I mean, and I guess it's preferred, you can still tell a, a personal story that can and should move people even if they don't necessarily like relate to the specifics of the story. Does that make sense?
Karen Eber (35:51):
100%. Okay. So I was in a, a large Fortune 500 company as a head of culture and my business was 90,000 employees in 150 countries. And court organizational culture, it doesn't shift until each person stops and thinks like, what does this mean to me and what do I wanna do? There was no way that I was gonna go be in a room, the 90,000 employees around the world and they did not need to hear more about our values hanging on the wall. I used stories to demonstrate different things that we expected of leaders, the ways we wanted the teams to work together and support each other, the behaviors we encouraged or discouraged. And many of these people never had these experiences, but they started to connect with them and they would send me messages like, complete strangers all over the world would send these messages of how the story made them think or make a different choice. So storytelling is this artificial reality. It lets us feel like we are in something having an experience we may have never had before. And that informs our thinking, becomes a part of our experiences and helps be something that we look at when we're making choices going forward.
Jen Fisher (37:04):
Okay, that's super helpful. So let's move to, you have your story formulated. You feel good about it, , let's talk about delivery, which is the part that scares the crap out of me, as you know, . So how do you like, let talk about some points around delivery, delivering your story in a way that captivates your audience. You know, do you move around the stage? Do you use your hands? How do you use the tone of your voice? All of those things. Can you t tell me a little bit about that?
Karen Eber (37:36):
There's so many different things you could do, but I like to help people get started with a few basics. The first is embrace pause. An effective pause does so many important things. It allows the listener's brain to catch up. So if I'm telling a story and we're nearing the point of conflict and everything's happening and I wanna land a point, I am going to say it, I'm probably gonna be accelerating when I'm saying, and then I'm gonna pause and I'm gonna let your brain catch up and that idea is gonna land even stronger. Pause is such a powerful part of a story. It is really a character in it. And so I always encourage people, where can you incorporate pause in here and leaning up to it? How do you accelerate and how do you then let things land? Because while you're telling the story, the audience is having a story go in their brain of their own experiences.
Karen Eber (38:32):
And so pause allows for the brain to, to almost hit a speed bump and say, oh wait, oh, she's not talking. And then the idea lands. So that's the first one that I would say. The second around movement is to think of the graphic facilitator. These are the people that will draw pictures when someone is speaking and maybe they use a light bulb for idea and a barbell for, I don't know, exercise. You know, they have certain images that they draw and you watch them thinking how are they able to visually capture this? And the reason is they have a vocabulary, they have almost like an alphabet of images. So they know that anytime someone says idea, they're gonna draw a light bulb. They're not on the spot guessing, what image can I draw that's gonna personify this? They have a whole alphabet, a library, like they automatically know translate that to using your body.
Karen Eber (39:32):
The same thing can happen when you are telling your story. If you have specific gestures based on your topic, I talk about the brain a lot. And so I often will put my hands up around my head and like make a circle around my head to indicate brain. You know, I will use numbers to show anytime I'm talking about numbers in the opening of my TED Talk, I talked about Maria pushing the button in the elevator and you see me push a button in the elevator. You, you use your body to personify the story and instead of getting up there and just trying to gesture wildly, you are coming up with specific movements based on what you're talking about. Because then you are just following rules and you're not trying to think, oh, I haven't moved in three sentences, I better move. So I always encourage people to look at what they're saying and then think about what are some gestures, some movements, some visualizations that punctuate what you're saying.
Jen Fisher (40:37):
And is there, like, do you have a, if I feel uncomfortable, like is there one that I should start with? Like is there, are there, is there one that's more important than the other in delivery or is it more just what you feel comfortable with or just kind of try, try, try all of them. ,
Karen Eber (40:54):
Try something is what I say. Okay. There's not any one that is a magic movement that makes the audience go, ah, it's more you get to experiment and see. And this is the hard part. You do have to record yourself. You do have to watch and see, I do this all the time and there's some movements and I'm like, Ooh, that's awkward. I should not do that . But you don't know until you see. And so having the try anything, anything that is just punctuating what you're saying, working in some gestures. And here's the secret thing about that. If you are feeling nervous when you are speaking, the movement moves the energy around and it makes it easier. It's the, the secret people don't tell you. And so I always suggest incorporate some movement in the opening sentence because it helps move that energy around.
Karen Eber (41:43):
There's also this study that came out of Stanford that says that when you are stressed, if you take a step forward, you get a dopamine boost. It's like your body is rewarding you for doing something that feels hard or nerve wracking. So if you're gonna give a presentation and you are a little nervous, if you can incorporate any type of forward movement, your body rewards you with a dopamine burst. And so I try to say, get something in that first sentence, try to have something forward moving and then experiment and play with what feels natural.
Jen Fisher (42:17):
Okay. But you shouldn't walk back and forth across the stage, right? .
Karen Eber (42:21):
Oh, that is tiring. And this is the hard thing. We all have these nervous movements that we do that we don't realize. And you've seen people do this and they don't even realize they're doing it and it's distracting. So if you can incorporate movement and like walking around the stage and not, or meeting room or whatever, wherever you're speaking and not be distracting, go for it. If that's really hard for you, it's better to plant your feet and gesture than pet pacing back and forth like you are I don't know, on one of those amusement park games that people try to shoot water at
Jen Fisher (42:59):
. Okay, that's really helpful. So one final question, but I think that this is so important and, and you talked a little bit about this when perhaps we were talking about should our stories be true or should our stories be factual, but in your book you also talk about how a story can manipulate and how to avoid it. And so can you tell us more about that? 'cause I think this is such an important point.
Karen Eber (43:24):
It always comes up when people are asking about storytelling this, why aren't you manipulating? Which is why we do wanna tell truthful stories. The the question always comes up around data too, which I find interesting because data can be manipulated as well. It's all comes down to intent. And so I always encourage people to be really clear on the intent of why they're telling the story. They're telling, why they're trying to help the audience achieve something. Because the moment that intent disappears or feels slightly manipulative, you sniff it out. We can detect people that we feel are being manipulative and the moment that happens, trust is gone and it doesn't happen. So when you can lead with intent, you can be clear on where you're telling a story and you're telling a truthful story, it is much easier and people will follow along. Any of those things start lacking and then you run into challenges.
Jen Fisher (44:24):
Hmm. Okay. Well Karen, thank you for this. I feel like this will encourage and inspire people to definitely read your book. So thank you for being on the show today.
Karen Eber (44:33):
Thank you for having me.
Jen Fisher (44:42):
I'm so grateful Karen could be with us today to talk about storytelling and look out for another episode where we'll be talking to Karen again about how she helped me prepare for my TEDx talk.
Jen Fisher (44:54):
Thank you to our producers, rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the Work Well podcast series on deloitte.com or you can visit various podcast catchers using the keyword work Well all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter at Jen Fish 23. We're always open to your recommendations and feedback. And of course if you like what you hear, please share post and like this podcast. Thank you and be well. The information, opinions and recommendations expressed by guests on this Deloitte podcast series are for general information and should not be considered as specific advice or services.