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Podcasts and presentations by Bill Williamson, Scott Kowalewski, and Steve Benninghoff.
KBD - CandW2023
Fri, Jun 23, 2023 2:23PM • 57:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, audio, podcasting, experience, podcast, talk, writing, class, work, idea, professional, people, assignments, steve, ways, recording, authenticity, production, projects, hybrid
SPEAKERS
Scott Kowalewski, Steve Benninghoff, Bill Williamson
Scott Kowalewski 00:15
Well hello, everybody. Thanks for downloading and listening to our computers in writing 2023 podcast episode. The title of our presentation is "The Hybrid Mind of Podcasting: Journeys In and Through Hybrid Pedagogical Spaces in PTC Programs." My name is Dr. Scott Kovaleski. I'm a faculty member at Central Michigan University. And I'm joined by my colleagues Bill Williamson of SVSU — Saginaw Valley State University, and Steve Beninghoff of Eastern Michigan University. And I think I want to get started with our presentation today by sharing the intro to our proposal. I swear it'll be the only thing that I read through this presentation. But I think it does a really good way of structuring kind of where we're coming fro, with our thinking in this presentation. And then I think likely our conversation will will deviate from the rigid structure proposal to be more conversational, more organic. But let me get started with this.
Scott Kowalewski 01:12
We write as PW teachers and scholars, we are always writers, writing with words writing with visuals, writing with sound and writing with dynamic content, but we need to better engender what writing is, excuse me that writing is designed in our PW courses, the ultimate goal is for students to understand that design redefines communication as a coherent activity, unifying people spaces and ideas. In that way, all writing is always hybrid. And to illustrate that today, we want to share our experiences polling in podcasting and audio production in our professional technical writing courses. And in particular, share some of those experiences here why we think podcasting and audio production is a core element of, of, of that sort of writing is always hybrid perspective, how we frame podcasting and audio production as problem solving and information design. And then also, we want to share some, some stories or some of our experiences in in assignment design, and in course design. So I'll welcome in my co presenters here, Bill and Steve, how you guys doing?
Bill Williamson 02:23
Doing good, so far, ready to go.
Scott Kowalewski 02:27
So, I know in our in our proposal, we kind of have a start typical speaker structure here. But I thought we might get started with kind of talking about when we say like, sort of this writing this hybrid design, through podcasting and dynamic audio design. What do we mean by that?
Bill Williamson 02:51
Haha, we mean so many things by that actually. It's, it's one of the few genres, I think are one of the few emerging modes of communication, where we really have an opportunity to capture so many more dimensions of our, of our reach that wall so many more rhetorical dimensions, specifically of our communication process, where it's no longer just words. It's not words on a screen or words on a page. They're they're words coming across in a voice and no matter whose voice that is, that carries dimensions and possibilities for expressiveness dynamics for the content that makes it so much different. And it makes that experience that's actually my theme that I'll be exploring here makes that experience of the moment, so much richer than when we are reading off the page, even when, so there are a handful of authors that because I've heard them speak either through video or audio or alive or because of people that I know, when I read their work, I hear their voice in my head. And that's as close to podcasting as it could possibly get. I think podcasting is one of those things where I no longer have to rely on what I've experienced in the past. I'm getting that authentic register of who that person is, by listening to their voice in the in the dynamics of it, as I'm experiencing them talking to me.
Steve Benninghoff 04:17
I think another way of thinking about that question of sort of authenticity. So one of the themes for for the class there for the presentation, is engagement and ways that we can get students more engaged and involved in it. And students are remarkably aware of their own tonal variations when they speak and what community they have very strange thing to say but very advanced tacit rhetorical awareness when it comes to voice, the use of voice the ways they will you To embody these different identities, and different sort of communities and groups. And so a big part of sort of what I'm going to be talking about is like, how do we develop equity. What I mean by equity in that situation is getting students to feel like they already have skills and abilities, and helping them sort of articulate that. And that really comes across and think is this Bill said, and Scott will be saying that there's so many different dimensions to the ways podcasting brings voice into the game, and help students think very differently about the way they are performing in their college education and their budding professionalization.
Scott Kowalewski 05:48
Well. And I think it's some of those reasons, Steve, that, you know, the sort of broader field of Rhetoric and Writing Studies started to start a growing interest in audio production, probably about 1520 years or so ago. Newer Cindy soft article that came out in 2009. And right, we sort of saw the ways or colleagues were arguing for ways that that audio complements writing that audio deviates from writing some of the different rhetorical strategies and, and nuances, as well as the knowledges that students bring to audio production that, you know, that parallel but also deviate from, from writing. And often that was in the spirit of, of multimodality. Thinking about the ways that contemporary information design, contemporary communication design, needs to have an understanding of not just textual modes, but audio modes and visual modes as well, and sort of how all those work together. And so right, we see that our students, many of them live in a very, you know, living spaces where they're constantly inundated with all these all these modes, and so, right, the things that they take with them into our classroom, from those experiences often really inform their work, even if even if it's not, you know, even if they're not consciously thinking about it all the time, they have that awareness of how audio communicates, and how audio and text and video together communicate in different kinds of ways.
Bill Williamson 07:31
Well, I'm going to use that as a segue into in the first of our threads that we proposed here, which is the experience. So again, Bill Williamson here, and I'm listed as a speaker one, but by my contribution here is to talk a little bit about the transformation of our program that actually credit Scott with in primary part, at least, to launching it when he joined our faculty, and he was at SVSU. As many of you know, before he, for he, he headed off to Central Michigan in recent years. And he brought with us an emphasis on an audio from his prior educational and professional experiences, and began to infuse some of that stuff into courses. And I was already dabbling in video well, more than dabbling in video, I was already doing some courses that were really, really built around video production. But I hadn't done much with audio alone, before Scott arrived. And so but for about the last decade, we've gone from a space in our program, and in our individual courses where audio began as a reach, where we it was a new exploration of something that was well, and a journey of discovery for a lot of students just as it was a discovery for most of us faculty, Scott being the exception there. And it has come to a point where audio is such a central part of what we do that I'm actually teaching a course this semester where we're using audio as part of the drafting process, rather than seeing it as an end production. It's actually part of the ideation and reflection portion of the course in ways that it's never been even for me before when I've been exploring these kinds of things for a while. So, to talk a little bit about that journey, though. So Scott, coming along, and opening up this possibility that we might begin thinking about and exploring audio prompted us to seek the seek funding, so we could build our first podcasting studio. It was it was humble, and that's okay. It was a good beginning. And when we saw the impact that it had, we sought additional funds and extended and expanded and upgraded the the quality of the materials that we've made available to our students, and the quality of the experience that we were able to do for them. But at the same time our program was going through this evolution sparked by people like, while the collection from Johndan Johnson-Eilola and Stuart Selber from about a decade ago that was technical communication is problem solving. And there's an incredible array of authors that are represented in there that are that are opening up that as a conversation within technical communication. And as part of that, we began seeing technical communication as problem solving much more, and we were always on that wavelength. But we begin consciously embracing that throughout our curriculum, level by level layer by layer. And in parallel to that, so sound and problem solving coming together, we begin to see as we explore things like recording research sessions, that when we begin introducing usability studies more, or integrating usability studies more into the curriculum. The phrase user experience design has become incredibly powerful in our program. And that the experience part of it complemented by problem solving, and expressed through audio, has created this incredibly well. It's a unifying moment. But it's also it changes the dynamic of what our students do, it changes the dynamic of how our students think, programmatically about what it means to do the work of technical communication. And so, again, all of those things coming together, I begin shifting the way that I talk about technical communication, as problem solving, from creating documents from creating content, from creating things that we put out into the world, and instead begin changing the conversation to creating experiences. So that's a challenge in and of itself, and it's a reach. And for students, especially early in the program, it's a leap in they have, they have a big problem, while they have a struggle, I should say, trying to get there. And when we begin looking at documents that they recognize, they can't see how that's an experience text on the page images on the page. They don't know how to experience that. But as soon as we get to the portion of the of the semester where we begin exploring podcasting, now all of a sudden, experience makes sense to them. And when we start talking about how their their understanding of communication can extend into shaping other people's experiences, through sound, and through words expressed audibly, suddenly, there's an opening that happens, and they begin to see a way of communicating that to them feels more personal, more authentic, more connected to their own identity, more meaningful, and richer in so many different ways. And it's a it's a turning point for them. And because they emphasize it so early in their experience, because after due to my 200 level classes, it becomes a transformation and it changes the way that they evolve as technical communicators compared to what I've seen in years past. Steve, you're looking to jump in on something there?
Steve Benninghoff 13:20
Well, I just, I just wanted to point out that what you're explaining is, connects to that word hybrid. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That they, in coming to this idea of authenticity, or coming to these, like they, they're recognizing that they have multiple identities, they have multiple roles that they play. But this, it's It's oddly contradictory that that idea of multiple roles and multiple shifts and what they do with their voice, and the roles is hybrid. So we say it's more authentic, even though they're realizing well, I have many authenticity, I guess,
Bill Williamson 14:00
Right? And they feel like suddenly, once they've turned that corner, once they've opened up that set of possibilities that they can understand what it means to help other people experience information in new ways. So prior to the introduction of podcasting, the one assignment that would get them looking at information as an experience was actually participating in the construction of an online museum, where that was the mode or that was the shift that I had to make for them where they would start to see, okay, museums or things we walk through museums are things that we that we it's a process of discovery or rediscovery, and they could see that as experience, but we often didn't get to that point until later in the program. So now introducing them to audio early on. Now when they get to the point where they're doing things like thinking about online museums or thinking about games, for example, which I implement into your information architecture class, because of the patterns that are inherent in understanding how to play a game and then experiencing a game. So when they get to that point, now they've got a different perspective on all of these things in terms of the experience, and they're much more ready to think of how to practice empathy, how to understand needs and expectations, how to think about impact, and how to monitor or meter those things themselves. And to be more conscious and more. I'm not even sure what word I'm looking for here, but more more, more critically aware and more, more purposeful in the way that they engage with others. And they see this as my responsibility is to construct and to and to share. But that my responsibility is really to try to figure out how to connect. And that's more than words on a page more than words on a screen even more than video or audio alone. It's there's an intent as a creator, that is so different than just what they were, what they were thinking of themselves as doing prior to that. So thinking about those kinds of things, either of you guys, I mean, so you're both doing a lot of things in your classes that are engaging with podcasting, and that are trying to push students into a place where they are thinking of their responsibilities to others in more complex ways than we may have traditionally done, what kinds of things are coming out of your classes, or out of the research that you're doing that echoes some of those things that I'm talking about?
Scott Kowalewski 16:44
Well, I wanted to Yeah, I kind of wanted to piggyback off that, because, again, this is maybe a little bit more anecdotal. But when I when I first started teaching way back, when, as a grad student, multimodel, he made a lot of sense to me, and I really embraced it. And then that comes partly because of my background and in electronic media production. And so I was always having students do some kind of multimodal project and my composition and my tech comm classes. But I think it wasn't until like, like podcasting in particular, that became a core focus, or what I was doing the took what students I think otherwise saw sort of like a novel like, Oh, this is kind of interesting, we're doing some of the stuff in the writing class, to like, now them seeing how audio production was central to the kind of information to the sign that they might be expected to do, as professionals. And, you know, to your point, Bella about, like, having that first podcast studio, which was kind of humble, but there was something about that, that physical space that then legitimized how that work was part of our core to the program. And students saw that then that's a space that they could, that they could, that they can use, as a way to create things that were more, more robust, more professional sounding, and more important to the work that they were doing.
Bill Williamson 18:15
And there's definitely a sense of them equating being on a microphone, with having a different level of professionalism. And because they've all experienced radio, they've all experienced, you know, music and audiobooks and podcasts and stuff as they were growing up, so to speak, or maturing as as people and professionals, but then for them to be the ones on the microphones. Of course, when they get past that initial moment of intimidation, they often find a voice that they never knew that they had or maybe they knew that they had, but they never had a way of expressing before. And in fact, in my classes over the last three years, we've struggled with going into and trying to emerge from the pandemic, the assignments where the students have consistently performed with the greatest authority, effectiveness and confidence are the audio assignments. So they did not expect that at all. They have struggled far more with their writing, the blank page has been more intimidating to them to address with a keyboard than it is with a microphone. And I find that incredibly powerful. So much so that like I said, I've come to the point where there's moving beyond the trio that you talked about at the beginning writing with words writing with sound writing with dynamic content, meaning video, and so on. Now I'm using, like I said before, the audio is part of the ideation process where they are drafting papers or sections of projects, through the microphone and then getting the transcripts through a service like otter and then manipulating those words that are generated that way and they're there. They're moving past the barriers that they used to feel including you Well, including writer's block, they're far less prone to writer's block when they create first with audio, which I think is astounding. It's a small group of people so far that's reported that. But wow, what a powerful sense of possibility that comes from that as a teacher. When I think about what the possibility is down the road for exploring how to make more of that,
Scott Kowalewski 20:26
well, as I say, that's, that's a cool space then for for a future project. And I wonder if it has something to do, kind of as an aside here that you'll often when when I introduce these projects, or, you know, to students, there's there's a couple of concerns, but I think one of the biggest ones is I don't like listening to myself. Right. Right. But I think you're right, what, what happens is, most students get over that pretty quickly, and discover that I got a voice. Right. Like, like, there's like, like, I have something to say, and I think part of that is empowering them to be able to tackle topics and situations and, and context that they were there some exploration where they feel comfortable, or they have curiosities. Right, where, where they feel like they can make a contribution.
Steve Benninghoff 21:22
I think that's a moment that we can linger on to. Because when they come in, in my experience, like they are very, like nervous as, like you said, they don't necessarily like the sound of their own voice, but they've never heard it recorded on good equipment before. And there's lots of aspects to that. But then they're also extremely aware that speaking it out loud in a way that's being recorded, is a, an ownership, it is a movement towards. So we, we use authenticity, we use that word in a lot of different ways. But it has a layered set of meanings. And so they realize they're owning something in a way that they're nervous to, at first. And the idea that I'm an expert, and it's like, look who else is expert in your own life. And getting them to like, say, Look, you you have a right to your experience, and its value as much as anybody else. And so I feel like there's a way that that is, in giving them some agency and a sense of people, you have to kind of really support them in developing that idea that they have agency and that they can make a difference.
Bill Williamson 22:35
I want to jump in with one last thought on the thread on experience before we transition into some of these other threads. And it's that jumping off of what the two of you are saying right here, I get to experience my students in a way that I've never had the opportunity before, I get to see them, hear them, and to understand what they find meaningful. And I can I can hear if they're excited, I can hear when they're not, I can, you know, there's so much dimension that comes through on these recorded assignments, that it transforms my sense of their their connection with the work, but it also transforms my sense of the content that they are constructing. And that again, is one of those things where once upon a time it was having students reflect on a project and reading that reflection in concert with doing the final evaluation of it, I would see their struggles, it would hear them talking about things. And sometimes it sounded kind of fake it sometimes it sounded really authentic, but that does not even begin to compare to hearing them talk about it, and to hearing them express their delight their frustration, their whatever it is that they have to express. And again, it helps me experience them in ways that returns to them a sense of humanity, that it's easy to leave behind when you're grading a page or a screen. And it's a constant reminder that there is there's a human being on the other side of this coming at me and I've always tried to strive to maintain that sense. But you can't ignore it with one of these audio driven assignments. It's impossible to shut down the awareness of their humanity on the other side of it.
Scott Kowalewski 24:34
I think that's a good point. And maybe this is a moment where we can we can back up and and maybe create some distinction between what we mean by podcast and audio production. So So podcast by definition, right. It's kind of a serial episodic show that that is is usually some kind of theme based, right, and that podcast exists on platforms that there are then distributed and reach an audience. But then we're also talking, so we're talking about that. But then we're also talking about audio production work that, that may not be episodic, that may not be distributed to a wide audience. But that is often done in conjunction with a project that, you know, builds already talked about using it as part of an ideation or invention strategy. He's talked about this as being part of reflective activity, we've we've used this kind of audio production working like research when students bring in interviews with focus groups, or individuals. And then it's almost always done in conjunction with other kinds of information designer writing work, right. So even in like the, the podcasting projects that I have, writing as a huge component, and done, you know, parallel to but often in the background, right, so where the podcasts may be the shiny piece that goes out, right, there's all sorts of, of of written deliverables or written aspects that happen in the background to create that podcast as well. So right, we see that these productions are done in conjunction with other kinds of modalities like like petrol production, or hybrid, right. Steve's holding up signs in front of the camera right now.
Bill Williamson 26:34
So riff on that, Steve.
Steve Benninghoff 26:36
Um, well, I just was like, it's just great how Scott was pointing out that these things are never assigned. They never exist in any kind of isolation, and so much that we're always sort of using different media's to help plan discover. And then you use all these different sorts of materials to work through the project, but then you end up recording it, you have to go back and forth. So there's, there's always a lot of going back and forth between media and transformation of what you're doing and rethinking its purpose. So it's a potent revision and development tool, so it can work in this ideation. But boy, having to listen to it over and thinking about the different sorts of ways the audio has an effect for people makes you rethink your planning and rethink what effect you're going for. So, of course, has a potent sort of rhetorical sensibility to it.
Bill Williamson 27:36
Well, and on that note, like, I have assignments now built into my classes, where it just indicated, we begin with nothing. And we start at Louisa, we begin with the audio, and we get to text from there. But I also have them try their hand at writing a script and then recording that script. And when we go back and forth between those two different ways of beginning the process, do I record from an outline? Do I record it from a script? Am I generating ideas on the fly as I go with, with maybe again, you know, a direction or a set of mileposts that I'm going to be exploring, but they begin to see that there's a very different sense of voice and quality, and sometimes authenticity. But there's, there's a lot of differences that emerge, depending on how you begin the process. And in what the outcome is, when you're when you're going back and forth between text and audio. And I like when I get to the point where I can see them, comparing and contrasting those things, and beginning to recognize that each of those is a tool that they can use very deliberately, in specific situations, depending on what it is that they're trying to accomplish. And so it goes beyond a sound or a podcast as a documentary as a genre, and it has become part of their toolkit, where now they begin to recognize, hey, this works differently based on how I conceive of it and how I execute it. And that's a much better place for them to be at when they're going to leave us and to go become professionals outside of the academy. Because now it's just something that's part of the process. For them, it's it becomes more, more embedded in their sense of possibility as professionals and that's something that I think is a really incredible level for them to get to or an incredible milestone for them to reach.
Scott Kowalewski 29:29
Well helps build what Well, we've talked a lot about in other contexts. Now this idea of the brick glue, right and providing them with a, a knowledge base, a skill set, if you will, of a variety of ways of tackling problems, and not just in the sort of final deliverable, but just also in the process. And yeah, I mean, I guess in that way, right, we think about the hybridity of of those of those methods, and and what each offer and how students might think through them in ways to tackle projects in the workplace. Certainly, if they can apply some of that stuff beyond the context of the assignments that we give. And I think that way, like that's, that's often where, where I want students to get is to think about audio not as not as separate, or something else, or even to run a completely parallel with with like a writing process, but to think about it as a different tool in their problem solving kit.
Steve Benninghoff 30:39
Absolutely. For sure, one of our earliest grads from the program way back when middle middle arts, and when she went to go work for it started making video tutorials for a company like, and actually before that, when she was working for the health organization, like the key lesson that she brought to give presentations was, how important audio is how much time she spent working on audio, and the ways that that came across.
Bill Williamson 31:11
So Steve, you have, especially in the last few months in the wall in the last semester or two, you've really invested more in this notion of the audio exploration for your students in you've begun recording interviews were quite frankly, I've just been absolutely astounded at some of the stuff that comes out of it, the the the student voice in those moments has been rich and powerful, and so invested in a moment of reflection that shows an understanding of communication that I'm not used to hearing from undergrads especially. And I mean, you know, you've got a mix of undergrad and graduate students to talk a little bit if you would, about how you've constructed that experience. And you know, the steps that have led them into that and the kinds of things that you're seeing from them that excite you.
Steve Benninghoff 32:09
So I think there's a number of ways, I've mainly used the podcasting so far as sort of reflections and expressions of lessons that the students either have already had, or things that we've worked on in other ways. And if you compare that to sort of reflections that they do in writing, just like we have, has, Scott and Bill have already said, there's a sort of a different sense of authenticity and a different sense of of ownership that the students bring to it. Now. Last fall, when I did this with sort of an introduction to professional writing class, the project that we sort of used as a springboard into the kind of podcast was designed in many ways to sort of help students think more hybrid Lee, about their own awareness, try to move there. So we did a literacy narrative that was really a, you know, a regular literacy narrative, like, how did you what to pick out a moment when you really had an aha moment about reading and writing. But then we did a second literacy narrative that's about another domain of their experience or expertise and pick out an aha moment. And the key to that was getting them to think of it not as mechanical, but to think about it is contextual. So those aha moments that you have aren't when you learn just what exactly do I am I supposed to do? But what is everybody else doing? What's the goal of the organization? What's the goal of the group. And so then the idea was in and having them draw sort of comparisons between these pieces. Of course, professional writing, the move is from writing as an individual to writing as a part of a community try to create a community support a community, develop relationships with co workers, customers, and just a very different sort of, from the idea of rhetoric of winning everybody over all in my interest to what's a communal interest look like and how do you sort of negotiate that? But then what we did for the podcast was, I paired them up and asked them to talk about their moment of realization of in their other areas of experience. And they had to tell that story and then draw comparisons across those. And that was fantastic because getting them into their own areas of experience is that's the closest they get to sort of feeling like a professional already, that they're sort of owning something. And then in trying to draw comparisons across those, you know, One of my favorite articles for forever has been this Susan Hart Harkness regularly piece, where she talks about the core expertise of a technical communicator, his invention. But the idea that we usually use of invention of discovery of available means is a lame sort of definition. And, as she's, she calls it elaborate communication, I like to call it system comparison. And that's what these students do. And they did it well. And they do it in a way. As we've said, when they use their own voice, and they get excited, talking about a coach, or a teacher, or a co worker, who meaningfully engaged with them, and help them learn the ropes. Like you can't, like at one level, you're sort of not able to fake those moments. And that really comes across. And so it does add many layers to this idea of how, like the students are, like, there's many ways to try to talk about liminal or hybridizing experiences, their knowledge in these areas, they see it has tasks that are just occupational stuff they don't even know they know, or they think it doesn't transfer. And what has happened in these moments is they realize, oh, wow, this can transfer and it is comparable. And then the fact that you're capturing them in a conversation, actually doing that there's a there's a gap, it's it becomes a moment itself a realization of the ways that their knowledge and what was it that oh, shoot, like the most, the best thing, the most portable thing is a good theory. And so in a way, what we're doing with that knowledge is helping them theorize their own experience, and professionalize it and recognize the ways that it can transfer and compare. And that's one of the sort of key lessons, you know, for all of our sort of professional writing programs, not just that sort of introductory one. Right.
Bill Williamson 37:10
One tied to that one of the parallels that I've done is I've had students in professional development classes that are focused on identity. So like, you know, getting ready to graduate, who am I? What do I want to do with my life? What kind of problems do I want to solve? When I get them on mic? In those kinds of courses, it parallels the kinds of things that you are talking about coming out of the class that you're sharing with us, and to hear the confidence to express a sense of authority to claim expertise. And then one of the other things that I've done in that class, when I've taught it, is it I can only do this because their majors because there are a lot of classes together so that by the time they get to that class, and it's toward the end of their academic career, they're able to do this authentically and effectively, I have them record a contribution to like an evaluation or review of one of their colleagues in the class. Imagining the scenario is Okay, so you've just finished your first year work together in your in your entry level position. What did that colleague accomplish in the last year that you want to celebrate? That's kind of the way that I set it up, and the things that they say about one another, and the things that they recognize in terms of ability and in authority and expertise in one another is off the charts. So like, I get shivers sometimes listening to them talk about one another because I realize how much depth there is to their experience of one another in their is like in the context of the program, and that they learn to trust one another in ways that I wasn't sure was really happening. But then use here to express anything, oh, my goodness, how have I not been doing this for my entire career? Because this is this is such golden stuff to listen to
Steve Benninghoff 39:00
this past, actually summer semester, Gao so our opening assignment was a sort of an introduction to each other and their own student expertise and to sort of connect so what why should you know this about me? So it takes introduction and takes it from that sort of performative act and makes it to an active connection? Right. But the similar kind of thing where I asked them, What do you owe each other as students? And for them to sort of come around to the idea that like, oh, yeah, we kind of and it's funny, because there there have been a bunch of hilarious phrases that have come out of the summer class, but one of their key ones is friendship is magic. And that's become one of the one of their sort of buzzwords as they've gone through this short summer term.
Bill Williamson 39:53
It's very Harry Potter.
Scott Kowalewski 39:58
So be Because friendships are magic. I wanted to, I wanted to talk about how right we can move or how we have moved from incorporating projects and assignments, like you've just talked about Steve, and building that into an entire podcasting course. And so for Bill and I write this, as we kind of alluded to earlier in the conversation, you know, these these kinds of audio projects, podcasting projects, you know, started, you're very much in this sort of, hey, let's try this thing out, or, you know, thinking about doing this, and let's incorporate this into, you know, a particular course, the benefit we have have at SVSU, I think and one Steve has us too, is that right? There's, there's a program that exists around professional technical communication, that allows us to think about different places in that curriculum, where an audio project might fit in really well, Bill talked about it in his professional development course, he's talked about it in, in the, in the in the capstone course, which is an advanced problem solving course. But as a lot of this stuff started to gain momentum in that curriculum, we recognized that there is a space where we could pull in an entire podcasting course. In fact, we saw it as such core to what we had been doing that it almost seemed necessary to, to expose students to a podcasting and audio production experience, really early on, in in the program. And so we developed a, a 200 level podcasting course, that you piloted in a couple of different instances. So I first taught a pod, a course with a podcasting as a significant component in a multimedia writing special topics course I developed. And then I pulled in podcasting as the primary component, and an Emerging Media course. And then both of those instances, right, I was able to kind of tweak and refine, and that ultimately led to sort of what we developed for the podcasting course, that we were eventually able to work through the curriculum approval process at SVSU. And was officially on the books for last fall, of course, the the the first year that I was not on faculty there. So Bill's had the opportunity of teaching that class. We taught once or twice, not
Bill Williamson 42:36
only teaching you for the second time in this coming fall. And I'll add in that the last winter semester prior to becoming official, our colleague, Brad Herzog taught special topics as podcasting. So we have we've got four courses that have been offered either with a complete focus or a really like most of the focus was on podcasting. And in the fifth one will be this fall.
Scott Kowalewski 43:02
Right and to our knowledge, and you know, we did we did a fair amount of exploration and developing that there were no other programs, professional title, writing programs in the country that we saw had a dedicated podcasting course, if we're inaccurate, and you do have one audience listeners, please reach out because we'd love to hear about it or take a look at it, we'd be very interested in learning more and kind of comparing notes, if you will. But you know, it seems to be if not one of a kind than few of a kind. And, again, it seemed to be core to the values that we had developed over about a decade of incorporating these in. And from that, then, right, it became part of a a minor program that we also developed in community journalism and digital publishing. So that became a core course in that minor, as well as a featured course in the professional technical writing major. And there were definitely some, some challenges and assumptions along the way. But I think the way that we configured the course, was to give students that exposure early on in their, in their education in the program. And in having them see how audio work will build throughout their their time in the program.
Bill Williamson 44:27
When they get introduced to it really early in the program, they begin to recognize that between their entry into the program and their graduation from the program, they see it as an integral part of okay, I need to know how to do this, this this stuff. And of course then we also hear back from our alumni, we've got a number of alumni that are participating in podcast production in professional contexts who are doing a lot of video work, whether that's instructional video or customer support kinds of video and where audios, of course a significant component of that. And they are recognizing that that kind of knowledge won, at least in some markets that distinguishes them from their competition when they are trying to secure employment. But to it becomes something where they feel like it's a way that they can contribute in a workspace setting that they maybe wouldn't have thought of as a possibility before. So where before were the the automatic assumption would be print document website, PDF, now they're looking at, hey, maybe we need a podcast, maybe we need a screencast video, maybe we need some sort of live demo or recorded demo of something you'll wear now, it just becomes another part of the toolkit. Like, again, coming back to that sense of PicCollage. What do we have available to us? What's going to have impact? What are the needs and expectations of the people? And again, how do we shape an experience of content instead of a document? And in that, that podcasting course, sets the stage, so to speak, for them to be able to explore those things with more confidence, with more authority. And I mean, just as designers with more effect, because they are coming to it with prior knowledge.
Steve Benninghoff 46:22
It's a potent gateway drug,
Bill Williamson 46:24
it is it really is.
Steve Benninghoff 46:27
Right? I mean, they, they see, and see in here, these effects that the audio can have. And then it's hard not to, like shake the idea that now I have choices. So I want to design for particular experiences. And actually, they will be thinking about the sort of dimensions of experience where before that that really didn't occur to them?
Scott Kowalewski 46:56
Well, yeah, I mean, I think for us, like, in some ways, we wanted to put our money where our mouth was right that we, if we, if we valued what students were doing, I see what you did there, like that. But I mean, in contemporary careers, right, like, audio as a skill set is important. But we also see that a lot of a lot of students are interested in ways that they can connect with audiences outside of, of school, whether this is through some sort of social media presence, or, or their ability to, you know, have and cultivate, you know, a podcast and create a show, or, you know, that that's episodic, that, that draws people in that, that helps them engage with their, with their interest. And early on, when I started bringing this stuff in to, to my courses. I did a lot of podcast listening, myself and I in particular, I listen to podcasts about podcasting. And one of the themes that kind of kept on coming up in those, as they encouraged as the host encouraged people to, to start their own podcast, just kind of sit down and get going, was this notion that that, that everybody has a voice, and everybody has things that they're interested and that right, sharing those things, that you can help cultivate some kind of audience, however big or small, you know, and that the the sort of passion behind it was was kind of the lure of the draw. And for me, you know, nowadays, I mean, the joke kind of seems to be like, while everybody has a podcast, right, who doesn't have a podcast, but that still kind of, of the of the beauty of it, right? And, Steve, we talked about me, in some ways, you know, this, this is the equity of being able to share your voice to to have the opportunity to, to create something that that shares, your interests, your passions, your knowledge with an audience is really powerful. I think it speaks to where a lot of students are and want to go, as they work through education, that complements the other things that they're doing in their coursework.
Steve Benninghoff 49:11
I think in one way that it's kind of the wrong questions to say that everybody has a podcast. No, it's the idea is more, if you cultivate an audience or you cultivate a community, and like the idea of the way in, in trying to put that out there, you can't just you do have to sort of figure out how do I speak? Right for these people? Who are right my brethren by the people who share my interest and my and that and like you said, the passion that comes through when people are doing that. There does have to be kind of an interesting shift that we've been talking about this idea of rhetoric of the community versus the rhetoric of the individual and the ways that that sort of plays out A lot of podcasts, point that out in different ways that many podcasts a great, great, great number of podcasts will have multiple speakers. And so all those things sort of suggest, right the it's being the author or authenticity in a bunch of ways as much being a member of a particular community as it is like sort of look at me as an individual kind of thing.
Bill Williamson 50:26
Well, and if you think back 10 years ago, 20 years ago, ways that students, especially writing students in whatever kind of writing program they might be in, one of the ways that they might connect outside of the university while they were still university students was through blogging. And it was a way for them to find self expression, but also to find, for some of them, at least, to explore what it means, like you just said, Steve, to connect with an audience to create a sense of community. And they're practicing things that we can only hope that they'll find a way to explore in the context of an assignment delivered in a class, they're doing it on their own, on podcasting, has replaced blogging, for most of them as the idea oh, if I want to express myself, this is the way to do it. I don't want to blog, I want to podcast. And I think that's a really cool thing for them to see how this thing that they already have a connection with outside of the university, most of them anyway, when they make that connection with it inside the university, suddenly, they can bridge those worlds. And they can do it in ways that they haven't really necessarily thought of doing before. And now they've learned how to do production, at least in the courses that we're teaching. So we give them the means to sound more authoritative, authentic and professional when they're doing that work and trying to connect with and create for audiences.
Scott Kowalewski 51:49
Whilst we've learned myself, because I don't want to I want to be clear that like, there, there still, in many cases, access issues that exist, and, you know, barriers that exist for, you know, for everyone, right? So very universal, everyone that said, you know, what, what, what I tried to do, knowing that, you know, some ways, like, you know, equipment is a barrier for a lot of students. So when I teach a podcast course, for example, I don't have a textbook instead, what I what I have students do is purchase some professional audio equipment. And I have a list of like, different layers, different tiers. Sort of like, here's a bass on an often, right, students can get started with some pretty decent equipment, right, that blows the socks off of their, you know, internal computer microphone, for under $100. Right. So for about the price of a textbook. Right, they can have some some good quality equipment. And then of course, right, it kind of goes up from there, depending on their level of engagement and their and their budget. Right, I think, certainly more so now than Yeah, 10 years ago, if you can find the equipment that that won't break the bank for most college students,
53:10
and the gamers, headsets and different things that students have. I mean, they're not as good as the really nice mics. But they're not bad.
Scott Kowalewski 53:18
Right? Yeah, I mean, in a pinch, I would definitely say that they tend to come across, in most cases as being a little bit more flat and stale in their dynamic range. But, right, I mean, if that's what the student has available to them, you know, certainly, it's better than your internal microphone.
Bill Williamson 53:35
humble beginnings are just fine. Yeah,
Scott Kowalewski 53:38
I mean, we started using right $20 dynamic mics, when we started recording some of the podcasts we did 10 years ago, Bill. And right, and like, like an $80 mixing board. Right. So, you know, there was nothing super fancy about about what we had that. And and yeah, it was those humble beginnings. But, you know, I definitely think that there's more access, affordable access now than than there than there has been in the past.
Bill Williamson 54:10
Well, gentlemen, do you think we are ready to bring this home? What do we want to leave with the people with as their final thoughts on this?
Scott Kowalewski 54:17
Well, for me, I'm always interested, we talked about cultivating a community. So I'm always interested in in a hearing what other people might be doing, and how they might be incorporating some of these audio projects into their, to their courses into their curriculum. And then certainly, I'm willing to answer any questions and share materials that people might want or need or
Bill Williamson 54:40
and then I've run across so many people in the last, well, probably five, six years, especially that didn't know how to begin or didn't think that they could begin and in or would have never thought I could do that. You know what if that's where you're at this sounds intriguing to you in the pedagogical impact. Asians are incredible and diverse. Reach out to us talk to us because you know, collectively individually, we're absolutely happy to help support the the explorations of colleagues into this venue, because there's so much possibility that comes from it.
Steve Benninghoff 55:18
And everything that I would say about this is that like, figure out ways to do it with low stakes. And you will be surprised what high rewards you get from low stakes. So instead of doing your reflections on different learning, or different activities, in written form, like having them do, or at least part of it as something where they actually speak it and have them have conversations with that among classmates, so that they do their own shop, talk about the things that they're learning, and to get them to say that they are owning what they're learning in the class.
Bill Williamson 55:54
The number of times that I've heard a student record, or like a student group, is they break down into giggles or something like that, and say, I wonder what Dr. Bill will think of this.
Steve Benninghoff 56:05
Oh, love it. And those are, in many ways, the best sort of moments, right? Oh, yeah. When you when you hear that, like, yeah, Friendship is Magic, like we are your community doesn't happen in no space, there has to be that sort of shared space that they sort of create and develop through those interactions. And that's where the magic happens.
Scott Kowalewski 56:29
Is it too late to go back and change the title of our presentation?
Steve Benninghoff 56:36
I think what you just said should stay in the talk.
Scott Kowalewski 56:44
Well, hey, we want to thank everybody for listening. Please feel free to reach out to any or all of us. We hope you enjoyed computers in writing 2023 And we look forward to seeing you all down the road.
Bill Williamson 56:54
Yeah, take it easier, buddy. Don't be a stranger
Steve Benninghoff 56:58
Indeed