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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
[pj_wehry]: ye you
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: yeah hello and welcome to chasing leviathan
i'm your host p j weary and i'm
[pj_wehry]: here with dr martin glazier
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: scientific
[martin]: m m
[pj_wehry]: collaborator in the department of philosophy at
[martin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: the university of geneva dr glazier
[martin]: m m
[pj_wehry]: wonderful to have you today
[martin]: thanks thanks for having me of p
j
[pj_wehry]: uh so today were talking about your
book essence which is in the elements in
[pj_wehry]: metaphysics from cambridge university press talk to
us little bit about how you came to
[pj_wehry]: write this book i mean in some
ways feels like one of those really classical
[pj_wehry]: philosophical questions it what is the essence
of something so what drew you to write
[pj_wehry]: like this book and this sub matter
m
[martin]: well
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: i actually got into it sort of
through the through a different kind of topic
[martin]: the topic of explanation um so like
you know from one of the one of
[martin]: the first sort of things i got
interested in philosophy was this was sort of
[martin]: thinking about big ideas about explanations i
remember like you know in high school i
[martin]: remember i was learning physics and kind
of felt like i sort of had unlocked
[martin]: the key to the universe in some
way like i remember walking around in my
[martin]: neighborhood in october
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: something like that and looking at the
leaves falling down from the trees and thinking
[martin]: like oh this is all just it's
all classical mechanics it's like that's all that's
[martin]: going on here you know i don't
really i don't i'm not so confident in
[martin]: that idea any more but
[pj_wehry]: uh
[martin]: i still later became
[pj_wehry]: h ah
[martin]: was just really interest in like what
does that even amount to like what is
[martin]: what is the idea there it's it's
not supposed to be like there really aren't
[martin]: any any leaves falling or anything like
that and all there is is little particles
[martin]: that that seems crazy of course there
are these leaves and trees and everything else
[martin]: that i'm seeing it seems i sort
o think well the the best idea best
[martin]: version of the idea is that like
you know everything everything about the leaves and
[martin]: the trees and so on can be
explained in terms of what's going and at
[martin]: the fundamental physical level so but then
you know what sort of explanation is that
[martin]: that that we're talking about it's not
is not exactly the same kind of explanation
[martin]: that you might give of like you
know why did this window shatter because you
[martin]: know a rock hit it or something
that well that's that's a kind of causal
[martin]: explanation that doesn't seem to be like
what's going on here if you explain why
[martin]: is the leaf moving this way in
terms of the way the particles are moving
[martin]: it's a kind of tighter tighter connection
there or at least at any rate a
[martin]: different kind of connection um and you
know i think it's this kind of connection
[martin]: or form of explanation that a lot
of people have been getting interested in philos
[martin]: in philosophy lately um and something that
i then sort of spend a lot of
[martin]: time doing research on in graduate school
and afterwards sometimes people call it grounding explanation
[martin]: the idea is that it's supposed to
be a kind of the same kind of
[martin]: explanation that you might give of why
war progressed in a certain way by talking
[martin]: about the actions of the individuals that
made up the war why you know why
[martin]: cup of coffee is hot by talking
about the motions of the molecules make up
[martin]: the coffee and somehow it's that that's
the kind of explanation that's involved in this
[martin]: picture so i got i was really
interested in that and doing a lot of
[martin]: thinking about that but i started to
think that maybe maybe philosophers are getting a
[martin]: bit too going a bit too overboard
with this kind of
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: explanation and thinking that it was sort
of the only kind
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: of explanation there was or or maybe
the only the only kind of explanation other
[martin]: than causal explanation um i started to
think that you know there are other kinds
[martin]: of explanation even within metaphysic which was
the area of philosophy that i was mostly
[martin]: working in there's something else going on
besides just
[pj_wehry]: yep
[martin]: this grounding type of explanation
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: so one one example of another kind
of explanation i started to think was like
[martin]: a kind of explanation that can be
given by the essences of things so we
[martin]: could explain you know why why is
there why does it always turn out that
[martin]: whenever i have water there's some hydrogen
atoms in there why is that seems like
[martin]: the answer is like well water is
by its very nature h two o and
[martin]: that's why no sample of water can
be entirely free
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: of hydrogen atoms you know why why
is it that you can never make a
[martin]: robot cat i mean you can make
a robot that looks like behaves like
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: a cat and maybe looks like a
cat but it's not going to be a
[martin]: cat
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: and why is that it seems like
the answer is that you know what a
[martin]: cat is essentially or its very nature
is a certain kind of animal and so
[martin]: that's why you can't make a robot
cat
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: so so i started
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: thinking okay this is this is other
important kind of explanation but it's a kind
[martin]: of explanation that seems to be given
by essences and so you know what are
[martin]: essences what are
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: we talking about here when say that
water is by its nature two or cats
[martin]: are by their nature animals and so
that's how i got interested in the topic
[martin]: of the book i wanted to try
to understand what was going on there
[pj_wehry]: who are some philosophers that you are
pulling from for these kind of discussions
[martin]: well you know that the topics been
discussed for a really long time in philosophy
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: is one of the oldest discuss
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: topics that have been discussed in metaphysics
so you know even plato and even more
[martin]: so aristotle said a lot of things
about essence in this book i'm mostly focusing
[martin]: on more recent work it's a matter
of competence that's the stuff i'm more familiar
[martin]: with it's also just kind of to
understand where the discussion is at right now
[martin]: and so these days you know it's
there's a lot of people writing on the
[martin]: topic but h part of the reason
that i was that i another part of
[martin]: the reason why i got into it
i think is that my advisor in graduate
[martin]: school philosopher named kit fine was one
of the biggest contributors to people that have
[martin]: developed these topics he plays a large
role in this in this book but there's
[martin]: some there's other figures like a low
bob hale katherine kaslicki and many other philosophers
[martin]: who have had interesting things to say
about this topic
[pj_wehry]: got you and so for you a
large part of this book i mean these
[pj_wehry]: are very short which for some people
they look at the price and they're lie
[pj_wehry]: well it's a short book and like
yeah but you get a short book and
[pj_wehry]: you can actually read it so um
the main one of the main parts of
[pj_wehry]: your argument is the distinction between active
and latent facts can you share a little
[pj_wehry]: bit about not a little bit i
understand that's probably like the key right if
[pj_wehry]: you don't understand that i don't think
anyone can understand really your argument right can
[pj_wehry]: you discuss that distinction yeah
[martin]: yeah so it was you
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: know i wanted to try to the
aim of the book was sort of partly
[martin]: the aim of the book was just
to introduce the topic and get people up
[martin]: to speed with what is going on
now in the debate around essence but i
[martin]: wanted to kind of do it in
in a coherent way and not just say
[martin]: like here's this thing about essence and
here's this other thing so i started to
[martin]: think what is what is a really
interesting question about this that it seems to
[martin]: me to have been kind of under
under explored
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: and there's this idea that i think
you can sort of question that you can
[martin]: extract even from some of the oldest
work on the topic even going back to
[martin]: the ancient philosophers and the question is
something like you know are facts about essence
[martin]: or our essences inside our everyday world
or do they somehow lie outside the world
[martin]: now that's like just put like that
it's very hard to know how to sense
[martin]: of this but i thought that maybe
one way to try to clarify this idea
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: would be in terms of this this
distinction between active and latent facts so
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: active facts i'm thinking these are just
kind of like fact it's how things are
[martin]: like i'm talking to you on a
podcast it's cloudy outside you know whatever
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: hamburgh is three hundred kilometers from berlin
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: tokio capital japan and so
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: on just all these kinds of facts
about how things are those those i'm going
[martin]: to call active and then we could
sort of m contrast those to facts about
[martin]: how things were or how they will
be or how they could have been or
[martin]: how they must be so you know
facts about what happened in the past facts
[martin]: about what will happen in the future
or facts like about how things could have
[martin]: gone like maybe ovid didn't have to
become
[pj_wehry]: a
[martin]: a global pandemic certain different things
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: that happened twenty nineteen that's
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: a sort of fact about what could
have happened but didn't then facts about what
[martin]: must be the case like you know
what goes up must come down or things
[martin]: like that energy is conserved these i'm
thinking are they seem to be different in
[martin]: character from the active facts that i
talked about before they're not telling you about
[martin]: how things are but sort of about
how they were or they will be or
[martin]: they might be they must be and
that's kind of so we could we could
[martin]: then try to to think more about
how to how to exactly make that distinction
[martin]: precise but i was thinking there is
some kind of just intuitive distinction that you
[martin]: can grasp there and then we can
ask okay which side of the distinction do
[martin]: essence facts go on um are they
kind of like these facts about the past
[martin]: or the future or different possibilities are
they facts about how things are right now
[pj_wehry]: so
[martin]: so that's
[pj_wehry]: good
[martin]: yeah so that was kind of the
question that i tried to frame much of
[martin]: the book around and just see how
how much of what other other philosopher work
[martin]: that other philosophers have done on essence
might shed light on this issue
[pj_wehry]: and the exact example escapes me you
were talking about latent facts and you were
[pj_wehry]: talking about possible facts you know versus
what's seemed what goes up what must come
[pj_wehry]: down that's the one that you used
that's that would not be considered an act
[pj_wehry]: effect that would be a latent
[martin]: yes
[pj_wehry]: fact
[martin]: yeah i was thinking that these facts
in the second category i'm going to call
[martin]: them latent facts
[pj_wehry]: yes
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: to me though that and you know
i'm just looking at it so i'm trying
[pj_wehry]: to understand why those aren't inactive facts
why like obviously i can understand different scene
[pj_wehry]: like like if statements right like you
know like
[martin]: no
[pj_wehry]: but when you're talking about these almost
like principles like you know
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: what goes up must go down why
why is that and why are those enlighten
[pj_wehry]: facts
[martin]: yeah i'm thinking that well one idea
i kind of like is this this idea
[martin]: that the latent facts are somehow pointing
beyond the way things are so they're saying
[martin]: it's saying what goes up must come
and it's not just talking about how things
[martin]: in fact are but like no matter
what happens this is a law of nature
[martin]: or something like that you know things
have to obey this law
[pj_wehry]: okay
[martin]: so we're
[pj_wehry]: and
[martin]: kind
[pj_wehry]: so
[martin]: of
[pj_wehry]: the like if something is falling that
would be an active fact the fact that
[pj_wehry]: if something goes up and then it
falls and as a rule is okay sorry
[martin]: the
[pj_wehry]: i
[martin]: fact
[pj_wehry]: was just
[martin]: that
[pj_wehry]: trying
[martin]: if it goes it must fall that's
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: that's what im thinking would be
[pj_wehry]: okay
[martin]: the latent fact yeah
[pj_wehry]: got you all right sorry i was
i was struggling with that one because i
[pj_wehry]: was like i mean that's the way
things are like if i dropped things okay
[pj_wehry]: i'm tracking got it
[martin]: it is it is confusing because and
that's why uh yeah i mean that was
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: something i struggled with even in coming
up with the terminology because there i think
[martin]: i was originally calling them lie dormant
facts i know that that seems bad because
[martin]: because they have
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: these real effects and like they
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: tell you something about the way things
are so that i switch this other word
[martin]: which is perhaps just more obscure hopefully
[pj_wehry]: oh they had
[martin]: no
[pj_wehry]: terminology
[martin]: longer as a commutation
[pj_wehry]: at least you used words that don't
have like i mean when you say essence
[pj_wehry]: i mean you want to talk about
a very debated and like like word that's
[pj_wehry]: all over the place throughout philosophy right
like in terms of definite and um at
[pj_wehry]: least like active and latent i haven't
seen that lot you know what i mean
[pj_wehry]: so i appreciate that like okay if
i understand your definition i can use this
[pj_wehry]: and most of the time people know
what i'm talking about
[martin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: so also just one dimension not as
a criticism of the book but i was
[pj_wehry]: disappointed that you are not in fact
going to give us the essence of golf
[pj_wehry]: as i was going through but that
was a great first example can you talk
[pj_wehry]: us through that case and um maybe
as even a case study in common misconceptions
[pj_wehry]: that people have about essence or common
missteps people make yeah
[martin]: yeah yeah
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i mean this is a funny example
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: of how like this kind of seemingly
abstract philosophical concept comes up in something that's
[martin]: you know has at least
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: some relevant to people's people's lives was
actually a supreme court case from from around
[martin]: the turn of the century and and
basically what happened was there was a sky
[martin]: he was he was a golf coach
but he had a certain disability which meant
[martin]: that you know was he wasn't really
able to walk
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: walk the golf course he had is
a golf card okay so there was a
[martin]: organizer of golf tournaments in the u
s p g a tour which prohibited people
[martin]: from using golf cards he said if
you want to compete in this tournament you
[martin]: have to
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: walk the course that's their rule so
he them and said look i have a
[martin]: disability you you're legally required to accommodate
this i can't i can't walk the course
[martin]: and this eventually got all the way
to the supreme court so you had these
[martin]: justices weighing in on this and the
opinion of the court was written by john
[martin]: paul stevenson he basically said look i
mean he had a number of arguments that
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: he gave to to support the ruling
but one of them was that this not
[martin]: inconsistent with the essence of golf to
allow someone like this person to to use
[martin]: a golf card he said no look
you know the essence of golf like you
[martin]: know what if we had to say
what go really is he said well it's
[martin]: using it's something like using clubs to
cause
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: a ball to progress to a hole
or
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: something like this and you know it
doesn't it doesn't involve walking that's not you
[martin]: know that may be something that i'll
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: do a lot of the time when
they're playing golf maybe it's even something that
[martin]: would be nice to do but it's
not part of what golf is
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: okay so then you know the descent
was written by anton and scolia and you
[martin]: know he basically said i mean as
far as i can make out his response
[martin]: was that this stuff about the essence
of golf is nonsense because i really we
[martin]: can't make any sense of this idea
that there is an essence of golf and
[martin]: you know his argument is not very
good i think one of one of the
[martin]: things he says is that you know
games a game like golf or anything else
[martin]: none of the rules to that game
can be essential because there's there's no sort
[martin]: of no purpose that the game is
serving the purpose of the game is only
[martin]: to have fun and so since purpose
of the game is just to have fun
[martin]: nothing can be essential to it it
seems like he was thinking of the idea
[martin]: that like you know you say that
something is essential in the sense that you
[martin]: need it to do something a passport
is essential if you want to cross a
[martin]: border you got to have a passport
you need it for that purpose but i
[martin]: don't think that's what that's the idea
that stephens had in mind when he was
[martin]: saying that you know walking isn't essential
to golf and you know using clubs is
[martin]: or whatever he thinks it's not that
it's not the idea is not that you
[martin]: need you need this for some purpose
but rather this is that what golf is
[martin]: um you know centrally involves using a
club and essentially involved walking so i think
[martin]: that what was going on here was
that there was a kind of confusion between
[martin]: different senses of essence so there absolutely
is this sense of essence meaning like what
[martin]: you need for some purpose but there
is also this more philosophical sense about what
[martin]: something is what what is the nature
of this activity or of this or of
[martin]: this thing or of this property or
whatever and that's the sense of essence that's
[martin]: the kind of essence that i wanted
to talk about in this book
[pj_wehry]: absolutely and uh you then move on
from these active and latent facts and then
[pj_wehry]: you talk about essence in regard as
it i just talked to someone who talked
[pj_wehry]: about concepts tangling together so that's the
way it keeps coming to mind it gets
[pj_wehry]: entangled with other philosophical concepts what are
some of those other philo philosophical concepts and
[pj_wehry]: how do they both illuminate sometimes confuse
the issue
[martin]: yeah i mean so i think it's
actually one of the most one of the
[martin]: best ways to understand the notion of
sence better is to just understand how it
[martin]: connects to these other ideas and philosophy
so some of them have kind of already
[martin]: come up in this conversation like the
the definition of something like maybe like golf
[martin]: like what golf is so stephens had
his definition about using
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: clubs to cause a ball to progress
to a hole and you could say that's
[martin]: an attempt maybe it's wrong an attempt
[pj_wehry]: yah
[martin]: to give the essence of golf
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: um and you know we might say
that maybe maybe that's
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: also what's going on in the case
of something like the example of water which
[martin]: bought before you know say like water
is
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: it's very nature certain chemical compound h
two o that's the essence of water here's
[martin]: a way in which you can see
that as a kind of definition of water
[martin]: telling you what water is so that's
a concept that seems to be very closely
[martin]: connected to sis and very very related
to that is the idea of something's identity
[martin]: like the identity of water is this
chemical compound to
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: and you know yeah the identity of
maybe we can even talk about the identity
[martin]: of a person some philosophers have thought
that who your parents are is essential to
[martin]: you or at least sort of your
material origins so if we want to say
[martin]: like what somebody is like what what
is the identity of george w bush we're
[martin]: gonna have to talk about
[pj_wehry]: uh
[martin]: his father george h w
[pj_wehry]: h
[martin]: bush
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: so those are those are some concepts
or closely connected to us and it also
[martin]: seems it also seems to be linked
to one concept that's sort of loomed very
[martin]: large and much of the recent discussion
of essences it's called modality so this is
[martin]: a way of referring to necessity and
possibility what's what has to be the case
[martin]: and what could have been the case
again we've already kind of this has already
[martin]: come up a little bit seems like
something is essentially a certain way seems like
[martin]: it has to be that way say
i'm essentially human that's a part of part
[martin]: of what it is to be me
is to be a human being well that
[martin]: seems to show that i couldn't have
been non human i couldn't have been a
[martin]: cat or a fried egg or something
like that that's because part
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: of my essence to be human so
there seems to be that kind of connection
[martin]: that if you're essentially some way then
you have to be that way and some
[martin]: philosophers have thought that actually we could
use this kind of link or that this
[martin]: link is so strong that it could
allow us to actually give give a theory
[martin]: of the very notion of necessity you
know this is something that philosophers have been
[martin]: puzzled about for a long time you
know we say these things like you know
[martin]: what goes up must come down or
like i have to be human i couldn't
[martin]: be a cat but like what what
does that really mean and how how is
[martin]: how is that uh yeah what does
that what does that amount to and what
[martin]: makes those things true
[pj_wehry]: what does it
[martin]: one
[pj_wehry]: mean
[martin]: idea
[pj_wehry]: for something to be necessary
[martin]: yeah what does it mean for something
to be necessary i mean it sort of
[martin]: like it seems like we have to
go beyond the way things
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: in fact
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: are because we're talking about how they
have to be even if things were in
[martin]: fact different these other necessary truths would
still hold so one
[pj_wehry]: and
[martin]: idea the people have had is that
this could be explained by talking about the
[martin]: essences of things that lie in fact
all everything that's necessary whenever you find a
[martin]: necessary truth like let's set aside the
physical sort of laws of nature type
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: of things like what what goes up
one what goes up must come down but
[martin]: say something like martin is human whenever
you find a necessary truth like that there's
[martin]: always things essence that kind of gives
rise to that necessary true so in this
[martin]: case would be my essence my essence
is to be human and that's why i
[martin]: couldn't have failed to be human and
same thing with you know water water has
[martin]: to be h two o and that's
because it is essentially h two and so
[martin]: people thought maybe you could give a
whole theory of all modality this way um
[martin]: m yeah some
[pj_wehry]: i mean
[martin]: other had
[pj_wehry]: i was just going to ask i
mean and this i think a lot of
[pj_wehry]: this is where we start getting into
because the phrase doesn't make sense like that
[pj_wehry]: something within or without the world like
immediate y're like what's the world then if
[pj_wehry]: it's without the world when you know
all these weird questions but when you start
[pj_wehry]: talking about necessity in the fact that
this goes beyond even those things that are
[pj_wehry]: and this is where you're getting off
an do very very long tangents in philosophical
[pj_wehry]: history right and so i just want
to you know wat i mean i mean
[pj_wehry]: this
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: where you have the forms is where
you have all that stuff come
[martin]: for
[pj_wehry]: up
[martin]: sure
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: people have been kind of getting confused
and wondering about this for a long time
[martin]: but you know
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: yeah maybe this is a good point
to try to connect this back to the
[martin]: active
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: latent thing or are they
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: our essences inside or outside of the
world now maybe with this connection to necessity
[martin]: you
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: can start to see why this is
such a hard question
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: to answer because it seems like now
if you like the idea that you know
[martin]: the reason it's necessary that i'm human
is because of something about my essence that
[martin]: i'm essentially human and that's starting to
make it seem like these you know just
[martin]: like when i say that it's necessary
that i'm human i have to kind of
[martin]: go beyond the way things in fact
are have to talk about sort of what's
[martin]: outside of this world well anything that
explains that is also going to maybe have
[martin]: to be outside of the world
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: might start to think in that direction
[pj_wehry]: ah ye
[martin]: okay but not that that's you know
obviously true or something but you
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: might you might start to wonder if
that's how things have to go but then
[martin]: on the other hand you know if
i've got a glass of water here on
[martin]: the table in front
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: of me and then i can just
so you're like okay there's some water here
[martin]: in front of me on the table
i'm just telling you how things in fact
[martin]: are and then what's water well what's
this stuff it's h to o am
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: i just aren't i just kind of
continuing to say
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: how things are so that starts
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: to make it seem like no this
isn't about what's outside the world at all
[martin]: whatever that's supposed to be and this
is just a mondaine fact about how things
[martin]: really are um so yeah you know
these is one example of how i think
[martin]: thinking about these kinds of connections essence
on these other concepts can help bring clarity
[martin]: to this sort of question
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: that may have initially seemed really obscure
[pj_wehry]: and it also brings us back full
circle to you talking about explanation right because
[pj_wehry]: like at the end of the day
when we talk about necessity which very is
[pj_wehry]: very closely tied this idea of identity
it's like look
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: the only reason i want to know
if this is water or not is because
[pj_wehry]: i want to know if i can
drink it right like that's
[martin]: yes
[pj_wehry]: like when i talk about explanations they're
grounded you know even as we're talking about
[pj_wehry]: ah now something like the golf thing
which actually you know that makes a difference
[pj_wehry]: in that person's life m
[martin]: a
[pj_wehry]: yeah and we we start to face
a lot of this with upcoming bio ethical
[pj_wehry]: questions actually like for people this might
seem super abstract but here's a lot of
[pj_wehry]: work going on with the mind uploading
project my editor is actually doing his masters
[pj_wehry]: and philosophy and he's writing a paper
on the mind uploading project and and it's
[pj_wehry]: like things like okay if we copy
over someone's brain states into a computer now
[pj_wehry]: you have a person and you have
you have a computer with all the same
[pj_wehry]: memories like is that is that is
that memory state if it's functioning in a
[pj_wehry]: in a computer brain if i can
put it that way is that a person
[pj_wehry]: right and i know you're familiar with
these but it's like it doesn't seem like
[pj_wehry]: a big deal until you can start
running into some of this stuff you're like
[pj_wehry]: no no no that there's two of
them and there can't be two of one
[pj_wehry]: thing you know and it gets really
really
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: strange
[martin]: there's that
[pj_wehry]: to me
[martin]: kind of problem and there is
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: also questions essence that arise there too
because you know you might have might have
[martin]: thought like what am i like what
is my nature well you know maybe one
[martin]: thing it's like um you know i'm
a kind
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: of biological organism that's as part of
what i am um well if that's right
[martin]: then whatever
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: gets uploaded into a computer that can't
be me that's not a
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: biological organs um it's something else
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: so then you have to think well
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: maybe i was wrong about the idea
that i am essentially a biological organism maybe
[martin]: that was wrong or maybe it's wrong
that i could survive by uploading my brain
[martin]: to a computer
[pj_wehry]: yeah anyways i was just thinking of
ways that you know as we talk about
[pj_wehry]: this like
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: it's one of those abstract questions that
just has its tendrils in so many different
[pj_wehry]: things so sorry i'm just like a
lot
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: of
[martin]: i think that's
[pj_wehry]: neurons
[martin]: right
[pj_wehry]: firing
[martin]: because
[pj_wehry]: for me
[martin]: i think you're right about that i
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: think it's kind of like it
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: shares that feature with a lot of
many other kind of debates and especially in
[martin]: metaphysics because they tend to be about
a lot of times they can be about
[martin]: these kind of basic concepts that are
sort of very deeply woven into our thought
[martin]: and action all the time and we
were just you know even if you've never
[martin]: heard the word essence you know you
have the idea
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: of like what something is
[pj_wehry]: right
[martin]: man may use that to think about
you know how you could change it or
[martin]: what kinds of changes you couldn't perform
to it things like that so because of
[martin]: that i think that these questions about
essence really do kind of in a way
[martin]: shed light on everything because it's so
deeply involved in all of our ordinary
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: thinking
[pj_wehry]: i mean and that that it's so
closely tied to definition and if words you
[pj_wehry]: know like words start to have meaning
right like it it just gets very slippery
[pj_wehry]: and i feel that even as we
right like it's like um all sudden words
[pj_wehry]: like that we we think we know
start slipping out from between our fingers i
[pj_wehry]: was gonna
[martin]: yeah well that can be a problem
in philosophy
[pj_wehry]: uh and i had said oh i
was going to ask you you mentioned briefly
[pj_wehry]: and and that i mean to put
you on the spot so
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: feel free to
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: it moves on in a different direction
but you talked a little bit about how
[pj_wehry]: time affects this do you mind expounding
on that a little bit because that i
[pj_wehry]: understand you had you know you have
a certain amount of pages you have to
[pj_wehry]: work inside of but that part really
interested me as you were you were talking
[pj_wehry]: about like time a theory time and
b theory time from
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: saying it correctly yeah yeah
[martin]: yeah yeah so i was thinking that
well let me just let me talk first
[martin]: about what but just that idea on
its own terms and then and then i
[martin]: connect it to what i was saying
so
[pj_wehry]: sure
[martin]: yeah there's this really interesting question in
philosophy of time about you know does the
[martin]: world so okay um we
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: all the time distinguish between like you
know things that happen in the past things
[martin]: are hppning now things happen in the
future this is ubiquitous but you know what
[martin]: of the status of that distinction that
we're making is that just sort of something
[martin]: about something about me like or about
us like we happen to be located at
[martin]: a certain time say and so we
just use we say that it's past that
[martin]: just means it came before us say
that something future it just means that it
[martin]: comes after us but there's nothing objective
there it's kind of like saying that certain
[martin]: things are here like there's a lap
top here that i'm speaking into um you
[martin]: know and some other things are not
here
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: but that's not any kind of objective
difference it's just like about how things are
[martin]: relative to me when i say that
it's here that's just something like you know
[martin]: it's near me so is past present
in future like that where it's just about
[martin]: kind of how things relate to us
or is it sort of more objective like
[martin]: there's really a basic fact of basic
distinction between things that are happening now and
[martin]: things that already happen to things that
will happen like maybe the things that are
[martin]: happening now are more real than things
that already happened things like that you know
[martin]: things events in the past like caesar
crossing the rubicon you know they once had
[martin]: this kind of reality and vivid quality
but now they don't anymore
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: so so which of these ideas is
correct um m this is a debate that
[martin]: has been carried on in philosophy
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: with really unhelpful names
[pj_wehry]: uh
[martin]: like
[pj_wehry]: uh ah
[martin]: the a theory gets used for the
view that there is a basic a
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: fundamental distinction objective distinction between past present
and future and then the view on which
[martin]: there's no just no basic distinction and
it's just kind of all about how things
[martin]: relate are related to us like it's
called the bee theory um m so i
[martin]: started bringing i brought
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: this up because it's kind of relevant
to this act iv versus latent distinction because
[martin]: i
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: was using when when i gave you
the examples of
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: the different facts you know i said
well here's an example of a latent fact
[martin]: like facts about the past like you
know i was asleep ten hours ago or
[martin]: whatever that's a latent fact you know
that's being a little sloppy
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: because it's only it's only a latent
fact if you have this kind of a
[martin]: theory view where you think there's a
real important objective distinction between
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: the past and the present if you
think that then it does seem right to
[martin]: say that well the fact that i
was
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: asleep ten hours ago that's that's not
really about how things are that's about kind
[martin]: of this sort of ghostly realm of
how things used to be i no longer
[martin]: that way or whatever okay but
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: so that seems like an okay example
[pj_wehry]: yah
[martin]: of a latent fact if you
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: have that view but what if you're
in stead one of these people that think
[martin]: no there's no objective distinction between the
past the present in the future it's only
[martin]: it's like here versus elsewhere then it
seems like the fact that i was asleep
[martin]: ten hours ago not it's no less
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: real no less about how things are
than the fact that i'm talking to you
[martin]: these are both kind of equivalent or
on a par on a level playing field
[martin]: so that's an additional like layer of
complexity that you have to deal with when
[martin]: you're thinking about
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: active versus latent because you have to
think okay well how would i how would
[martin]: i think about this if i thought
that the present was special in this way
[martin]: and how would i think about it
if i thought the present wasn't special
[pj_wehry]: ah yes yeah it's a lot of
stuff
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: to take in in the first few
pages i'm not gonna as i
[martin]: ye
[pj_wehry]: was walking through this and i'm tracking
through think about it how does that play
[pj_wehry]: into things like modality and necessity and
explanation the like
[martin]: think
[pj_wehry]: does
[martin]: about
[pj_wehry]: that does
[martin]: the thing a the time
[pj_wehry]: yes when you does does time affect
uh kind of boat that intersection of some
[pj_wehry]: of those concepts and time end essence
it feels like it feels like that would
[pj_wehry]: make a difference but i could be
wrong
[martin]: um m
[martin]: i'm sure there i'm sure it does
make
[pj_wehry]: instead
[martin]: it
[pj_wehry]: of saying sorry that was that was
a very vague let's take like necessity like
[pj_wehry]: i'm thinking about like
[pj_wehry]: it like like so if we took
at the there of time the b theory
[pj_wehry]: of time it seems like past facts
wouldn't have to be necessary but they would
[pj_wehry]: be nein a time but they would
be in b time
[martin]: well
[martin]: so so they're okay so
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: part of what's of what's difficult in
talking about this is that at the very
[martin]: word necessity has so many meanings so
[pj_wehry]: right
[martin]: um m you know we've been talking
about one kind of necessity that seems sort
[martin]: of really objective like
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: water must be h two o somehow
[pj_wehry]: hm
[martin]: like at least it feels like that's
that's nothing about how i'm thinking about that's
[martin]: like about reality or something like that
there are other kinds of necessity that don't
[martin]: have that character like if i say
um well it must be that the climate
[martin]: is getting warmer and maybe i'm saying
that after i've read a bunch of scientific
[martin]: papers or something and what i mean
is something like you know given the evidence
[martin]: that i've seen you know this
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: this this must be true given everything
that i know now that's something more about
[martin]: my knowledge not like necessary in that
completely objective sense like of course i can't
[martin]: imagine a possible world where the climate
is not getting warmer but it's necessary given
[martin]: what given the facts that i know
so that's one example of how there can
[martin]: be these different senses of necessity and
there is also this
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: and there is just another sense
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: of necessity that seems to be really
closely
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: connected
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: to to history so this is a
sense in which you can't change the past
[martin]: so whatever you know what's done is
done and you can't change that now in
[martin]: that in some sense it's necessary i
can't do anything about it i can't go
[martin]: back and
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: make if i did something i regret
i can't change it now it's necessary um
[martin]: so that there's that kind of sense
of necessity and one question is you know
[martin]: how does that relate to this
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: really object this other this objective kind
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: of i said he were talking about
before the sense in which water must be
[martin]: h two o is it it the
same yeah i don't think it's exactly the
[martin]: same because you know maybe you know
like i went to went to grad school
[martin]: in philosophy that's in the past and
that can't that's that's necessary
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: in the historical sense nothing i can
do now can change that but it's not
[martin]: necessary in this other sense because of
course i can imagine a different world where
[martin]: i did something completely different and never
went to grand school so doesn't seem like
[martin]: it's that kind of necessity on the
other
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: hand it seems more objective or more
about the world than this thing about what
[martin]: i know you know the sense in
which it given what i given the facts
[martin]: i know it must be that the
climate is getting warmer you know that's about
[martin]: me and
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: what i know this thing
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: about the past can't be changed that
that seems
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: more objective that's that's not about what
i know that's more real more more more
[martin]: worldly somehow so
[pj_wehry]: and i think
[martin]: so you know it's very interesting to
think
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: about how how these things connect
[pj_wehry]: m and thank you i appreciate your
patients as i worked through this and i
[pj_wehry]: realized part of the reason i kind
of lost the example that i was thinking
[pj_wehry]: of when when i asked that question
i'm thinking about memories and identity
[martin]: h
[pj_wehry]: so when we're talking about the
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: past and we're talking about what is
necessary and a lot of times with people
[pj_wehry]: when they say this is who i
am they may talk
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: about being a biological organism that i
know right now i'm sure the people listening
[pj_wehry]: like where did that question come from
but i like that idea of historic like
[pj_wehry]: i see
[martin]: yes
[pj_wehry]: some merging between between identity and essence
and things that we consider essences that are
[pj_wehry]: both necessary in the strongest sense like
if we can distinguish tween the that water
[pj_wehry]: is h two o
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: and that
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: and that historical sense
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: right i mean even if we talk
about social construction and what are like oh
[pj_wehry]: that's the essence of something and it
is like if that makes sense like like
[pj_wehry]: i mean we
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: talk about what a dollar bill is
or something like that something that is only
[pj_wehry]: given its value by by society that
makes sense
[martin]: it does definitely i mean there's so
many interesting
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: things that what you just said raise
us i
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: mean one thing that's really interesting
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: is this thing about who i am
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: and there's something
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: that sounds so bizarre
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: that you said when you say like
well who i am is a biological organism
[martin]: that sort
[pj_wehry]: i
[martin]: of like if someone said that to
you i think they were
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: insane and i
[pj_wehry]: right
[martin]: think i think the there was a
reason for that which is that you the
[martin]: phrase this is who i am we
don't usually use that to talk about essence
[martin]: in the sense of this book um
i think
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: it's more like
[pj_wehry]: got
[martin]: you
[pj_wehry]: it
[martin]: know us that's like that's like who
i am as a person or what makes
[martin]: me the person that i am and
that might involve things like my experiences
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: in the past are like my or
maybe my values my aspirations for the future
[martin]: my personality things like that and that
that does seem to be something that's like
[martin]: very
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: important to me and yet i think
it's probably not essential in the in the
[martin]: sense that i'm talking about because it
seems like at least for many of those
[martin]: things
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: certainly for like things i've done in
my life or maybe even my my values
[martin]: i can i can imagine a possible
scenario in which i didn't do any of
[martin]: those things and maybe a completely different
values you know i had very different experiences
[martin]: in life m so even these things
that are very important to me don't perhaps
[martin]: are not part of my essence now
the thing about social
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: social essences or social construction is also
extremely
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: interesting because that's something that i wish
i had had the space to talk about
[martin]: in the book that that's case where
you might start to really be pushed towards
[martin]: the inside the world view the view
on which essence facts
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: are active because it seems like something
i do or something we do in society
[martin]: like are we create dollar bills
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: and we create institutions um things like
that um something we do somehow gives these
[martin]: things the essences they have maybe if
that's
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: if that's right then it seems like
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: you know it depends
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: on
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: it's depending on things that happen that
we do and so you might think that
[martin]: means that it it can't be it
can't be outside the world in the sense
[martin]: of being latent or anything like that
it's
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: up to us
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: so yeah very
[pj_wehry]: definitely
[martin]: interesting
[pj_wehry]: sorry go ahead the i definitely feel
full of kind of going back to you
[pj_wehry]: know you started in different types of
explanation right and so that's i think the
[pj_wehry]: core of that who i am thing
in the same way that we would look
[pj_wehry]: at someone
[martin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: and i'm sure like for the very
a lot o the people listen to probably
[pj_wehry]: grew up were the norty studied types
right this is that kind of podcast right
[pj_wehry]: it's like the kind of kind of
kid like you start talking about leaves falling
[pj_wehry]: off the tree and they start going
well actually when you look at newtonian mechanistic
[pj_wehry]: you know physics and people are like
[martin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: crazy like that's not that's not an
explanation that's weird right and so when we
[pj_wehry]: say things like and i think that's
the distinction in which the essence of this
[pj_wehry]: book and what we often um gets
uncomfortable for people talking about like well this
[pj_wehry]: is who i really am and they
are like when they think essence like this
[pj_wehry]: is who i really am and it's
things like family and those kind of things
[pj_wehry]: which actually might be
[martin]: i
[pj_wehry]: a
[martin]: think
[pj_wehry]: bad
[martin]: so
[pj_wehry]: go
[martin]: that's
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i mean as i say
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: these things are very important very important
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: to me and to everybody so i
don't want to
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: dentegrate them at all it's just that's
i don't think it's part part of this
[martin]: concept of essence but it
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: seems like an extremely important concept to
understand i mean it's not it's not so
[martin]: clear like how exactly to understand this
idea of who i am you know eh
[martin]: what what makes you the person that
you are
[pj_wehry]: yes
[martin]: that that's something worth thinking about a
lot more
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: but i don't know whether the answer
will come from thinking about essence in the
[martin]: sense of this book
[pj_wehry]: that makes sense the and maybe this
one would kind of bring together some of
[pj_wehry]: a lot of the question we been
talking about you had mentioned that some people
[pj_wehry]: want to define people in terms of
the parents that they had
[martin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: and now that does seem historical but
that also seems that does seem necessary or
[pj_wehry]: there are tempting to be near the
strongest sense what do you think of that
[pj_wehry]: definition of a human being do you
find that uh valuable and do you do
[pj_wehry]: you think that that explanation works
[martin]: yeah i mean i guess i have
some sympathy for that idea i mean maybe
[martin]: it's not a i mean a definition
maybe should tell you not
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: just some of the essence of something
but all of it till you like everything
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: that's essential and i don't know i
don't think it's that's saying everything that's essential
[martin]: but yeah i do i am kind
of attracted to the idea that in general
[martin]: the origins of things are essential to
them so it's not just people it could
[martin]: be like material objects to like a
table that was made from a certain chunk
[martin]: of wood or block of wood now
if you consider another table that looks exactly
[martin]: like it but
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: was made from some other chunk of
wood you might say well that's that's not
[martin]: that table it's a different table that
table can only be made from that chunk
[martin]: of wood and you know yeah so
i think that so i think you find
[martin]: this pattern not just for people but
also for material objects um and that is
[martin]: kind of what get into in the
last part of the book to think that
[martin]: maybe maybe this could
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: sort of this idea could hold the
key to a kind of kind of explanation
[martin]: essences and sort of why where the
essences of things come from why they have
[martin]: the essences they do it has to
do with their origins and perhaps that pushes
[martin]: us in the direction of thinking that
the essences are re inside the world that
[martin]: they're active because they're the result of
the original the origins of things which is
[martin]: a historical process that goes on in
this world
[pj_wehry]: yeah um and that's one that was
i was going to ask next was kind
[pj_wehry]: of you have that summation of essential
facts are explained by the origins of things
[pj_wehry]: and that which and you talk about
facts are active how does necessity play into
[pj_wehry]: the fact that active facts are key
to i don't say necessary but our key
[pj_wehry]: to explaining essences
[martin]: ye oh
[martin]: can you can you say that again
[pj_wehry]: well i think one thing so what's
the relationship between active and necessary
[martin]: yeah so i was thinking that facts
about what's necessary are not active
[pj_wehry]: yes
[martin]: they have
[pj_wehry]: okay
[martin]: this kind of character of h of
reaching beyond the way things are sort of
[martin]: other other possible worlds they're not active
[pj_wehry]: and so as we look at an
i'm taking from what you
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: said a little bit essentialist facts are
explained by the origins of things let me
[pj_wehry]: see i can find the exact quote
because i don't not because i'm trying to
[pj_wehry]: pin you down here because i want
to make sure i'm not saying it wrong
[martin]: sure
[pj_wehry]: essential as facts are explained by the
origins of things to the conclusion that such
[pj_wehry]: facts are active
[martin]: yeah
[pj_wehry]: um m you explain that statement to
me
[martin]: so this is what i was this
is what i was saying so
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i mean origins that's something that happens
in this world and you know we can
[martin]: we can originate things we can create
[pj_wehry]: yes
[martin]: things and we have origins and all
that's that's nothing sort of other worldly about
[martin]: this
[pj_wehry]: right right
[martin]: so if that if these suppose it's
right that these facts explain why things have
[martin]: the essences they do then that seems
like that might be a good reason to
[martin]: think that sentialists facts are active because
they're explained by these facts about how things
[martin]: originate which are active they're just about
how things go in this world
[pj_wehry]: give me and for some reason i
think this is just a mental block for
[pj_wehry]: me can you give me an example
[martin]: yeah so take the table
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: example so i was saying you know
maybe you think that this table essentially comes
[martin]: from a certain block of wood so
why does it essentially come from this block
[martin]: of wood why is that kind of
part of what table is maybe the answer
[martin]: is because that's how the table was
made the table was made from this block
[martin]: of wood and that's why this is
part of what it is part of what's
[martin]: essential to it is that it came
from this block of wood so
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: that's a reason well you might think
that facts about the essence of the table
[martin]: are explained
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: by its origin look the facts about
the origin of the table they seem to
[martin]: be kind of active just like the
just like the facts about you know i'm
[martin]: talking to you it's cloudy you know
these cities are so many miles apart from
[martin]: one other whatever this table originated from
this block of wood it's a fact at
[martin]: the same category an active fact
[pj_wehry]: so
[martin]: then i'm
[pj_wehry]: it
[martin]: saying go ahead sorry
[pj_wehry]: so no so when you say and
this is where as we're talking about active
[pj_wehry]: facts when you say originated that changes
it from a fact that's in the past
[pj_wehry]: right because you're when you're saying originated
it is an active fact
[martin]: well okay you're getting a sort of
a subtlety to this argument so
[pj_wehry]: okay yeah
[martin]: yeah it kind of so it depends
on this question about time that we were
[martin]: talking about earlier
[pj_wehry]: okay that's that's what i was hoping
you'd say so i am tracking with you
[pj_wehry]: okay that's good
[martin]: yeah yeah so you know that's why
i like this this argument sort of
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: i feel like it has has some
initial appeal but then when you really try
[martin]: to develop it it turns out that
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: you know there's like a lot of
complications that arise and one of them is
[martin]: this thing about about these different views
of time
[pj_wehry]: got it
[martin]: because if you thought that if you're
one of these guys that thinks the
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: present is special then the facts about
how things originate are not active there's
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: other these latent facts and so so
i can't say that anymore
[pj_wehry]: well
[martin]: you're
[pj_wehry]: wouldn't
[martin]: right
[pj_wehry]: the fact that it did originate when
wouldn't you be able if you stated it
[pj_wehry]: that way different from the fact that
of the past itself does that make sense
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: so what is the second fact
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: the fact the
[pj_wehry]: you
[martin]: fact
[pj_wehry]: have
[martin]: that
[pj_wehry]: you have
[martin]: it originated
[pj_wehry]: you have like when you talk about
[martin]: what's
[pj_wehry]: so
[martin]: the other
[pj_wehry]: we're talking
[martin]: one
[pj_wehry]: about the wood in the table
[martin]: yeah ah
[pj_wehry]: right it's so slippery you have you
have the wood
[martin]: set
[pj_wehry]: in the
[martin]: examples
[pj_wehry]: table and its like you're talking
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: about the wood in the past and
that's not an active fact but when you're
[martin]: oh
[pj_wehry]: like the wood on this table originated
from somewhere in the past like if you're
[pj_wehry]: taking about what kind of wood it
is would that be active i think this
[martin]: i was
[pj_wehry]: is where
[martin]: thinking
[pj_wehry]: i
[martin]: the answer
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i'm thinking the answer depends on your
view about this question about time that we
[martin]: talked about before this a versus b
theory thing if you because to say that
[martin]: the table
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: originated from this block
[pj_wehry]: got
[martin]: of
[pj_wehry]: it
[martin]: wood if you if you think that
the if you think that the present is
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: sort of more real than the past
the present is special then you won't think
[martin]: that's an active fact because it's not
it's not like these facts about how things
[martin]: are these other facts those are all
facts about the present instead have you had
[martin]: this other view on which
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: the past and the present are on
an evil even playing field then the fact
[martin]: that the table originated from this piece
of wood well that's just as real as
[martin]: the fact
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: that i'm talking to you now
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: m
[pj_wehry]: okay so i think i understand that
and maybe what i'm maybe it's just just
[pj_wehry]: a dead end but it feels like
the explanation does exist in the present and
[pj_wehry]: so the explanation could be active whereas
the actual history maybe that's maybe that's just
[pj_wehry]: to maybe i'm like in a dead
end there and maybe what i'm wondering is
[pj_wehry]: if there's a way to state the
origin the table in a way that satisfies
[pj_wehry]: the i believe the theory of time
[martin]: it's let's see so
[pj_wehry]: and that might just be like really
for some reason and this might just be
[pj_wehry]: because i'm just thinking about this for
the first time in many ways ah that
[pj_wehry]: might just be a complete dead end
but for some reason i feel like there
[pj_wehry]: there's a way of doing that but
that might be the classic vichgenstein fly stuck
[pj_wehry]: in the glass bottle i think i
see a solution running into the glass like
[martin]: there's
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i think there's always a way and
so i think that there there
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i think that there
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i think that there is
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: what's coming to mind is something that
would
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: it would be very weird in some
other ways but it's it's his view that
[martin]: has been been discussed past couple of
decades called fragmentalism and
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: the idea is at we
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: see so
[pj_wehry]: oh ah
[martin]: we
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: we say that there really is this
fact um m okay so the theorist
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: the here's the heres the ay to
think about it the theorist
[pj_wehry]: yah
[martin]: wants to take to be special facts
in the present tense if you want to
[martin]: put
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: up that with so they like the
facts like
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: i am talking
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: to you you know that that's those
are really active those are those are real
[martin]: and then they don't like facts in
the past and yo know they think they're
[martin]: less less real or something like that
well according to this view called fragmentalism
[pj_wehry]: ye
[martin]: we say that well actually that's all
fine but there are some other facts that
[martin]: we haven't been recognizing it's not just
the fact that the table originated in the
[martin]: past
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: from this block of wood is also
somehow the fact that the table is originating
[martin]: from this block of wood say wait
a second how could that be there isn't
[martin]: it is not originally it's
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: not originating l it's here it was
already made so how can there be this
[martin]: present tense fact
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: that it is originating and they say
well you know there is it's just kind
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: of not part of
[pj_wehry]: ah
[martin]: this this domain
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: of facts that you're looking at here
but but there is that fact out there
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: in another fragment of reality so to
speak okay who knows whether you can make
[martin]: sense of this idea but if you
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: can then
[pj_wehry]: that
[martin]: this
[pj_wehry]: would
[martin]: would be a way to argue that
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: this fact about origination is active
[pj_wehry]: no
[martin]: it's active
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: it's just
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: as real as the fact
[pj_wehry]: oh
[martin]: at the fact that i'm talking to
you now but it's in this other fragment
[martin]: whatever that means um um so yeah
i mean i think this view
[pj_wehry]: m oh
[martin]: is very interesting but there's a real
question
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: still whether
[pj_wehry]: right
[martin]: it makes sense
[pj_wehry]: yeah thank you i appreciate you've been
very patient this is obviously not my area
[pj_wehry]: and so i i really appreciate you
talking through this with me today
[martin]: well that's
[pj_wehry]: kind
[martin]: really fun
[pj_wehry]: yeah kind of as we wrap up
here what is what one thing you would
[pj_wehry]: leave as a take away for our
audience
[martin]: i think
[pj_wehry]: yeah
[martin]: m this the issue about um m
it's something that's already come up in this
[martin]: conversation these facts about who one is
as a person
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: i think this is really worth thinking
about more i think that there hasn't been
[martin]: much work done in philosophy actually and
it does seem to be something that's um
[martin]: i mean it's it's very connected to
the idea of essence even though i think
[martin]: maybe it's not quite the same but
it's sort of like you can it's not
[martin]: hard to get the feeling you know
if you spend a lot of time working
[martin]: on essence and you know you start
to think about the essence of of persons
[martin]: you feel like you're sort of leaving
out some of the things that we wanted
[martin]: to know the most so the things
that are the most important like yeah maybe
[martin]: like the particular or my my origins
are essential to me and like that i'm
[martin]: a human being or something like that
but but aren't there sort of all these
[martin]: other things that are in some sense
core to me that don't go into that
[martin]: don't count as part of my essence
in this sense seems
[pj_wehry]: m
[martin]: like we ought t be able to
have a theory of those things too and
[martin]: how would that the question of like
spelling that out and what the connections between
[martin]: that concept and the concept this other
concept of essence would be i think is
[martin]: something worth thinking about
[pj_wehry]: absolutely dr glacier it's been it's been
a real pleasure thank you for coming on
[martin]: thank you so much i've really enjoyed
it