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Tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode of Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast. Join Francine L. Shaw, the savvy CEO of Savvy Food Safety, and Matthew Regusci, compliance connoisseur and founder of Fostering Compliance, as they serve up the latest in food safety with a side of laughter.
Explore the ins and outs of food systems, responsible food practices, and food safety regulations. Stay informed about food safety awareness and the not-so-occasional food recall. Delve deep into the complexities of the food supply chain with our dynamic duo, who blend expert insights with a pinch of food safety humor. Whether you're knee-deep in the food safety industry or just passionate about what's on your plate, this podcast promises a fresh take on staying safe while eating well.
Expect candid conversations, personal anecdotes, and occasional guest appearances that spice up the discussion. Shaw and Regusci bring their combined decades of experience to the table, making each episode as informative as it is entertaining. From industry trends to must-know food safety news and regulations, they've got your back (and your lunch).
In essence, Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast is not just about imparting information; it's about fostering a culture of food safety. By shedding light on the intricacies of the food supply chain and the latest food safety news, it aims to promote awareness and encourage responsible food practices among consumers and industry professionals alike.
When it comes to food safety, knowledge is power, and a good laugh is the best seasoning. At the heart of every episode is one golden rule: Don't Eat Poop!
DEP E168
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[00:00:00] Matt: Okay, let's say that Emmy's grandma went into her refrigerator, pours herself a cup of this beautifully tasting, amazingly made raw chocolate milk, and she has cancer. And she drank that, 'cause she did just like Emmy did. Wasn't looking at the label. She just saw chocolate milk was in the refrigerator. She grabbed it.
She poured herself a glass, and then happened to get listeriosis. Is someone like Bill Marler gonna look at the label and go, "It says they're not liable for unintended uses. There's nothing I could do about this"? We don't think so. I, I could be wrong, and I am wrong occasionally. Francine and I are wrong.
[00:00:47] Francine: Oh, we're both wrong.
[00:00:48] Matt: But I, I don't know if that's gonna be the case. I really don't.
[00:00:58] Intro: [00:01:00] Everybody's gotta eat, and nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points, from the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine Elshawe and Matt Regusci for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to
one golden rule: don't
[00:01:22] Matt: eat poop. Don't eat poop. Hello, hello, Francine.
[00:01:26] Unknown: Hey, Matt.
[00:01:27] Matt: By the way, we love it when people send us stuff because-
[00:01:31] Francine: Oh, we do. We do ...
[00:01:33] Matt: it's not like we have a hard time finding content, but when we get people sending us stuff, the content is epic. It's literally epic.
[00:01:43] Francine: Right. Well, and sometimes I get messages in so many different forms.
Like, we have way too many forms of communication because, you know, it comes on Instagram, it comes on TikTok, it comes through Facebook Messenger, it comes through just [00:02:00] everything. And I was talking to Darin yesterday, Dr. Detwiler, yesterday, give the man the respect he deserves, yesterday, and he was telling me about a couple things that he had sent me.
And I said, "You know, honestly, what happens is the things that come through on my TikTok DMs, sometimes I don't see for a while, and then I have to catch up and I see them, like, all at one time. And so if it's something I need to see right away, you need to text it to me because otherwise, it- I may not see it for a couple weeks because there's just so much of it."
So yeah, I woke up this morning to just an amazing TikTok from him. I love that man.
[00:02:45] Matt: We were literally gonna work on another project today, and then we get this, and then we're like, "No, we're recording a pod- We're recording a podcast right now" We're, we're doing this right now. And it's so [00:03:00] crazy. I had to ask my wife, and so Francine and I were talking to my wife before recording this show just to make sure, like you and I, we're jaded.
We're jaded legacy food safety career people, right? And so sometimes we'll look at things and go, "This makes absolutely no sense." But then we're like, "Okay, does this make no sense because between the two of us we have about, I don't know, 70 years of crazy food safety experience?" But okay, and then when anything is to do with raw milk, is this just from our jaded food safety sense or is this, like, against all common sense, right?
So you have to queue up the TikTok that Darin sent us. Does this
[00:03:45] Francine: really just make no sense, or is it just to us it doesn't make sense? Because not really sure right now. And is this real? Because we've got to do... I mean, I'm sure if you sent it to me, [00:04:00] it is, but now I've got to dig a little bit deeper because I need to know more about this.
Because we know, and this is one of the things that Darin and I discussed, is, you know, people put this outlandish stuff on there just for clicks, and they get it, and they get paid for those clicks and just for the reactions. So is this that, or is this real?
[00:04:27] Matt: And so what we're gonna do is we'll post the actual TikTok link down below in the show notes below.
But I'm gonna play this, and this is just, this is just, like, a normal lady, right?
[00:04:44] Francine: And she appears to be, yes.
[00:04:45] Matt: Yes. We looked her up. She is an actor, model, writer. Looks like she lives in New York, but she must've been in- She's a
[00:04:55] Francine: vlogger of some sort Yeah. Her name is- Looks like maybe beauty industry. I don't know.[00:05:00]
[00:05:00] Matt: Yeah. Her name is Emmy Mikela. And so we, you know, we looked into this 'cause we're like, "Okay, we need to get, we need to get some research just to make sure, like is this real?" And as far as Francine and I could tell, this is totally, totally real. And so we want you to get this reaction to this, and then also go look at this TikTok and go look at the label on this thing.
And then we're gonna talk more about how this makes zero sense for legality, and how they are able to get away with this. And if they are sued because they get somebody sick, is this really gonna keep them from getting- Where's Bill? Yeah. We need to get our Bill on for... Yeah. Yeah, Bill Marler. Okay, so I'm gonna play this, and you can hear it.
[00:05:48] Unknown: My mom and I went to the butcher, and we got this chocolate milk. Mom was like, "Em, do you want chocolate milk?" I was like, "Yeah, of course I do. Haven't had it in a minute." So- We get the chocolate milk, and it's 100% grass-fed, [00:06:00] awesome, raw cow milk. And I was like, "Cool. Whatever. That's fine." I had a delicious glass already earlier.
I am coming to have a second glass of chocolate milk, but on the label it says, "Not pasteurized." Okay, fine, but I've got a good immune system. And then it says, "Not for human consumption. Sold for livestock." I'm not a dumb girl. What the hell does that mean?
[00:06:29] Matt: Yeah, I would agree with her. She is not a dumb girl.
Looking at her website and the amount of work that she does, uh, she's a hard worker. She's-
[00:06:38] Francine: So first of all, the fact that she said, "Okay, whatever. I have a strong immune system," or whatever, something along those lines, means she has a little bit of knowledge.
[00:06:48] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah ... exactly, and she's, and she's young, and she is fit, and she is healthy, so she's not wrong, right?
She's not wrong.
[00:06:59] Francine: She has at least [00:07:00] baseline knowledge about raw milk. You know what I mean? And the risks. At least baseline knowledge about raw milk and the risks associated with it. The problem is now that we have half a gallon of chocolate milk labeled "Not for human consumption." Well, then who the hell's supposed to be drinking it?
[00:07:19] Matt: Chocolate milk, and Francine did some digging, 'cause I don't know why, but my computer would not let me open up the website for alldayfarm.com. And I don't know if they are like, "Okay, whatever the IP is of that Matt Regusci guy who keeps bashing on raw milk, let's just delete his ability to enter our website."
I don't know. I doubt that that's what it is, but some reason I cannot- I don't know. I got in ... Francine was able to get in. So she's looking at this, and Francine, what does it... How much does this, does this chocolate milk cost? It's like 14.99
[00:07:54] Francine: for half a gallon of raw milk.
[00:07:57] Matt: Yeah, 14.99 for half a gallon of [00:08:00] raw milk.
By the way, anybody who has livestock knows that they are not providing their livestock $14.99 half a gallon milk jugs, half a gallon milk products, that also have chocolate in them. Like, what the... What? This is designed for humans to drink. And she drank a glass, and then realized... And she got this at the butcher shop.
She just saw it, "Yeah, raw milk." Like, whatever. She bought the chocolate milk, she drank a glass, then read the label and saw, like, all this stuff on this, and then was like, "Okay, I gotta create a TikTok on this thing and, and let people know." I applaud her. Emmy?
[00:08:50] Francine: Yes. No, a- a- agreed. She's... I'd be calling the farm And saying, "So exactly what does this mean?"
Like, I just [00:09:00] buy this at the butcher shop.
[00:09:03] Matt: Okay, so you did, you did more research, like, on Florida law, right? So they cannot sell raw milk, right?
[00:09:09] Francine: This says that all their f- raw milk is labeled not for human consumption, and is sold as pet food to comply with Florida law. Florida law statutes 502.091, which restricts law unpasteurized milk sales.
The 100% grass-fed raw milk and dairy products are often sold through local markets. So for legal compliance, it needs to be labeled not for human consumption. Okay, fine, and they're selling it at ranchers markets and pet stores, things like that. I wanna know whose pets are drinking chocolate milk.
[00:09:52] Matt: Right.
Like, obviously not a dog. Like, you're not feeding- My dogs
[00:09:55] Francine: aren't drinking chocolate milk. My dogs aren't drinking milk. My [00:10:00] cats don't drink
[00:10:00] Matt: milk. Well, and your dogs could, because the size of your dogs, your dogs literally could drink a half gallon of chocolate milk and, or- Dogs can't
[00:10:07] Francine: have
[00:10:08] Matt: chocolate, but- Can't have chocolate, but a half gallon of raw milk in one sitting.
Is that they're like- One lap ... they're like 100-
[00:10:15] Francine: The one big tongue. 'Cause
[00:10:18] Matt: they're like 120 pounds, 150 pounds. Like 150. Is it- Yeah,
[00:10:22] Francine: 150 pounds. So-
[00:10:25] Matt: Oh my gosh, this is wrong in so many ways ...
[00:10:27] Francine: so then when you go to their website, the first thing that I read on the page that I went to, which I believe is their main page, says, "Real milk.
Milk that is pasture-raised, full fat, and unprocessed is inherently safe food." That is the first full sentence. "That's because raw milk contains numerous bioactive components that," and it goes on. Now, [00:11:00] this, it goes on then to talk about sometimes where dairies where cows live in filth and things, stand in their manure and things like that, but a lot of risk with raw milk that they're really failing to talk about.
[00:11:20] Matt: Except on their label. Except on their label. On their label.
[00:11:24] Francine: Well, only because they happen to be in Florida, which, you know, mandates that they put that on their label, apparently. But I wonder how many people are buying products that say not for human consumption and don't even realize it. Think about that.
[00:11:44] Matt: Yes. And on their label it says, "Not pasteurized. Not for human consumption. Sold for livestock." Not liable for unlabeled use. They're putting- But we're making chocolate
[00:11:55] Francine: milk ...
[00:11:56] Matt: so they're putting on their label- What? ... like they're thinking that this is gonna [00:12:00] keep them from getting sued. But there's different law systems in the world, right?
The American law system is based on the England law spirit, which is there are laws in place, but then based upon how other people have ruled based on other jurisdictions, and you could bring in different lawsuits to create what is ultimately, like, the spirit of the law. Precedence. It's the precedent.
Things that have set precedence. Right. We have a precedence law system. Thank you. Versus, like, other countries where it's like, "Is the law written this way? Did you break it, yes or no?" Right? It's very, very specific to that. Ours with the precedent law system is a little different. I'm not an attorney. Don't play one on TV.
Francine is not an attorney. In fact, we do everything possible not to get sued. Our attorneys, we literally have our attorneys on place just to be like, "We hope we [00:13:00] never have to go to court." Like, that type of stuff. Okay. So when you look at this, and it- we understand why they're doing this, is to comply with Florida law.
100%. Not liable for unlabeled use? I'm not sure that's accurate. When you are literally marketing to consumers chocolate milk at $14.99 a half gallon, I'm not sure they're not liable. I'm pretty sure they still could get sued. They still could go to court, and you could take it all the way to a jury trial, and 12 jurors are gonna look at this and go, "Yeah, you're selling to consumers, though.
You could put whatever label you want on the front of your packaging, but I don't... I think you're still liable." I don't know.
[00:13:48] Francine: If, if, if you're making chocolate milk, I want you to find, I want you to show me an example of someone, anyone, who's buying chocolate [00:14:00] milk for their livestock
[00:14:02] Matt: or their pet. Right. At $14.99 a half gallon.
[00:14:08] Francine: Right. I mean, our dog food's expensive. It's insanely expensive. But, you know, especially after that study Clean Label Project just did, thank you very much. However, however, 150-pound dogs are needing a small amount of dog food. Not as much as you might think, but however, they're not drinking chocolate milk.
[00:14:34] Matt: This is definitely something where I would be really curious. We have to talk to Bill Marler about this. Does he care about this label? Like, okay, so if, if say- A company like All Day Farms, because I'm guessing that it's a whole bunch of different companies in Florida that are doing similar things trying to get around this.
If they say, for instance, "This is not made for human consumption," but it obviously is made for human [00:15:00] consumption, and they put on their label, "Not liable for unlabeled use." Basically, humans are drinking this. And okay, let's say that Emmy's grandma went into her refrigerator, pours herself a cup of this beautifully tasting, amazingly made raw chocolate milk, and she has cancer, and she drank that 'cause she did just like Emmy did, wasn't looking at the label.
She just saw chocolate milk was in the refrigerator. She grabbed it. She poured herself a glass, and then happened to get listeriosis. Is someone like Bill Marler gonna look at the label and go, "It says they're not liable for unintended uses. There's nothing I could do about this"? I don't think so. I, I could be wrong, and I am wrong occasionally.
Francine and I are wrong. Oh,
[00:15:55] Francine: we're both wrong.
[00:15:56] Matt: But I, I don't know if that's gonna be the case. [00:16:00] I
[00:16:00] Francine: really don't. Look, it's like this. You go into a restaurant, and a restaurant has all kinds of disclaimers about cooking temperatures on their, on their menus, depending on what their menu is and what they serve, right?
However, if they kill somebody because they didn't cook something properly, does that menu do them any good? Bill Marler was
[00:16:22] Matt: on our show talking about this. Remember that one- Yes, he was ... yes, um- Yes, he was ... and they were like, "Well, you know, it's at your own risk if we cook the, the hamburger at rare," you know?
And he was like, "I know. You know what the risk is." Like you as the restaurateur know what this, th- what the risk is. And I talk
[00:16:43] Francine: about this. This is something that I talk about when I speak with... Y- yes, you've, you've printed that, and you've given them a warning, and yes, you're legally obligated to put that warning on there.
That doesn't alleviate you from using common sense. [00:17:00] Don't you love my directness? I mean, I don't see this as complicated because not for human consumption, but we're making chocolate milk. What are they gonna do with the chocolate milk?
[00:17:09] Matt: We're making chocolate milk, and we're marketing it for human consumption even though the label says it's not.
I just don't see it. I just don't see it holding up.
[00:17:18] Francine: They're not bottles of water. If it was bottles of water, I can go with that.
[00:17:23] Matt: Yeah, but even bottles of water, like okay, so distilled water. You're not supposed to be drinking distilled water. It says that on the, on the package. Uh, and people don't, but some people probably do.
It just... But then it, like, takes all your minerals and vitamins out of you. It's the exact opposite of what a human wants to do. This is why we had to get my wife, I had to get my wife on. And my wife was like looking at this, and she was appalled. She was like, "No, this is ridiculous. This is totally designed for human consumption.
Doesn't matter what the label says." And we have medically fragile children. If that had gotten in here and my wife had accidentally bought, which she wouldn't, but like, [00:18:00] because my wife lives with me too, for too long. But like, if she had, or someone else in the family, say one of my older kids had bought this and brought it home, and then one of my kids that are medically fragile drank it.
Oh, mm, mama bear would not be happy at all. Like, um, not at all.
[00:18:18] Francine: I'm gonna see 15 gallons for half a gallon of milk, and I'm just gonna start drinking water. Pay you
[00:18:23] Matt: $15 for half a gallon of milk. Yeah, it's... Yeah, talk about food inflation. Milk is no longer
[00:18:27] Francine: part of my diet.
[00:18:29] Matt: Oh, my gosh.
[00:18:30] Francine: And I love milk. I mean, that would've been enough to stop me.
[00:18:34] Matt: Wow. Let's just say, 'cause the way All Day Farms has on their website how they are, you know, their cows are pasture-raised for 23 hours a day, milked- Oh, my God ... once a day. They're Jersey cows, so you can do that. They're not like Holstein that are designed to milk like two to three times a day at specific times.
Like, Jerseys are a little more flexible. That milk is probably absolutely amazing, because Jerseys basically create [00:19:00] cream. Like, they are like cream milk. Let's just say that that's all accurate, and their risk of E. coli or of listeria is lower, 'cause they're not all just penned up and standing in their filth all day long, okay?
Their poop chute is still next to their udder. Anybody who has looked at a cow-
[00:19:23] Francine: Nothing that comes out of there is sterile ...
[00:19:25] Matt: No, it's still, it's, there's still a risk. And, you know, like, let's just say they do everything in their barn to mitigate the risk, and it's, it is still a sanitized risk. A, like, sanitized place.
It, it is unlike any dairy that I have ever seen, and I've been in hundreds of dairies. There's still a risk. So,
[00:19:45] Francine: okay. So do you still have their website pulled up? Do you still have their website?
[00:19:49] Matt: Yeah, I do. I have it on my phone, 'cause I can't open it on my computer.
[00:19:52] Francine: Go to the testimonials page and look at that first picture.
[00:19:58] Matt: Yeah, mine's, on the phone it's [00:20:00] different. This is so dumb that I cannot open another website on my computer. That is hilarious. I have a work computer that's, like, locked down for everything. Why, why is it locked down to a raw milk- I
[00:20:14] Francine: don't know, what were you doing that they locked down your computer?
[00:20:17] Matt: To a raw milk page.
You know what it is?
[00:20:18] Francine: You know what it is? It's that podcast we did a couple weeks ago about the chocolate.
[00:20:26] Matt: Yeah. I, I run the company, so I have a lot of access on my computer to a lot of things, but not raw milk, I guess. They're like, "Why is Matt looking at so much raw milk?"
[00:20:35] Francine: You can't find the testimonials?
[00:20:36] Matt: No, I cannot. So what about the testimonials?
[00:20:39] Francine: So the first picture is this adorable little boy, I'm gonna say he's maybe five years old, drinking a glass of raw milk with his little milk mustache and...
[00:20:49] Matt: I mean, I'm sure that there are people that think my wife and I's house, the children are livestock because we have so many of them.
But most human [00:21:00] beings do not consider their children livestock. And most, I mean, like, a lot of people think that, you know, five-year-old boys are animals, and I wouldn't disagree with them sometimes.
[00:21:11] Francine: All men are animals, but y- that's beside the... Just kidding.
[00:21:15] Matt: I don't disagree with you, actually. Just kidding.
And I don't disagree with you. But I'd fa-
[00:21:19] Francine: You left, you left that open. So raw milk is widely available in continental Europe, and even sold in vending machines. The royal family of England drinks raw milk.
[00:21:30] Matt: Sold in vending machines for animal consumption. So when you're walking your dog, you're gonna see a vending machine of raw milk, and you're gonna pull your little foldable plastic drink container out, you're gonna dump the raw milk in there just for your dog, 'cause it's, it's for animal consumption only.
[00:21:50] Francine: Hundreds share their stories of raw milk healing. What is, what is happening?
[00:21:56] Matt: This goes back to, like, what I said. Is raw milk [00:22:00] in some ways more healthy? Is there a bioavailability of different things that allow humans to digest things and da, da, da, that are unpasteurized? Sure. I'm not gonna disagree with you on that.
But where I have the absolute disagreement on is when people say that raw milk, that unpasteurized milk, there's no risk. There is an absolute risk. You are playing Russian roulette with E. coli and listeria when you drink raw milk.
[00:22:32] Francine: Among other things, but yes. Yeah. So the labeling just has me flabbergasted.
The whole labeling thing just has me flabbergasted.
[00:22:41] Matt: Like- Yeah, but it wasn't for the labeling thing, it probably wouldn't have ended up on the show, 'cause we've done so many raw milk episodes, and we're just pounding our head against the wall, 'cause we're... Because this is like a religion to people. And so we're never gonna change their minds.
But when somebody who drinks raw milk, Emmy, who [00:23:00] just says, "I have a good immune system," fine, looks at the label and goes, "Yeah, this is wrong," she's not wrong.
[00:23:08] Francine: Right. I don't even know that she was really a raw milk drinker. I think it's just something that her mom had bought, and it was like, "Yeah, okay. Well, I'll drink this.
Whatever."
[00:23:17] Matt: Yeah. She's like, "Okay, I had a glass. I have a good immune system. I can fight this off if I actually do get sick You're right. She never said that she's a raw milk drinker.
[00:23:25] Francine: No, I think it was just like, "Yeah, my mom bought this."
[00:23:27] Matt: Then she saw that, got worried. "Mom's crazy.
[00:23:28] Francine: She's spending 15 gallons and a half a gallon of milk.
I'm gonna taste it, see what it tastes like." "Mom, what are you doing? This says... Mom, what are you doing? You lost your mind?" This is going on TikTok,
[00:23:39] Matt: because why not? Everybody puts everything on TikTok. "
[00:23:42] Francine: Now I'm on a podcast, Mom. Thanks."
[00:23:46] Matt: Oh, my land. "
[00:23:48] Francine: Now these food safety people are talking about us. Thanks, Mom."
[00:23:51] Matt: Annie's smart. She said she's not... She's smart. She's not wrong. She is definitely smart.
[00:23:58] Francine: This has nothing to do [00:24:00] with her intellect at all. She's definitely... She's right.
[00:24:04] Matt: And she was right to throw this on TikTok and allow Darin Detwiler to find it and send it to us for content. Well- Which I think it's hilarious.
This goes to show, like, I think the differences between our podcasts, 'cause he sent this to us knowing full well that we were going to jump on and do a podcast on this. He was throwing us a raw bone. He and his wife- Which he does ... could have used this content and done that, but they're like, "Nah,
[00:24:31] Francine: not our
[00:24:31] Matt: show.
[00:24:31] Francine: We'll let this-" Our podcasts are very different. You know what I mean? They're both good podcasts, but they're very different, and he's not gonna dive into this quite like we would.
[00:24:40] Matt: No. No, but he... They would dive into it, but they would dive into it in a very different way.
[00:24:45] Francine: In a very different way than we would, right.
It's probably why he's invited more places than we are.
[00:24:51] Matt: Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we've beat this [00:25:00] one to death. We have to send this podcast to Bill and see what his thoughts are. I would love to know what his thoughts are.
[00:25:07] Francine: Maybe we could send it to Bill and say, "Hey, Bill, wanna give your input?"
Just send him the feed and say, "Hey, Bill, wanna throw your input on here? Let us know what you think." Send him this and send him the link. He could maybe record something in addition to what we've already said.
[00:25:23] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That one line on the front of the gallon, or the half gallon, that says that they're not liable for unlabeled usage, does
[00:25:31] Francine: that- I wanna know, Bill- Does that scare you away?
when somebody gets sick, once you've read this label, are you done? Are you just throwing your hands up and saying, "Gee, I'm sorry, I just, I can't help you. I'm, I'm really sorry that this happened to you, but I just, I can't help you because they put that label on the front of the jug. It's just, it's there.
You didn't read it. It says 'For not human consumption.' I'm, I know that it was chocolate milk, but just sorry, guys, there's nothing I can do." I
[00:25:55] Matt: don't think so.
[00:25:57] Francine: Yeah.
[00:25:58] Matt: Yeah. To me, I think [00:26:00] even if, if that were the case, he would find it as a challenge.
[00:26:03] Francine: Yeah.
[00:26:03] Matt: All right. Well, on that note, don't eat poop.