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You've heard the book publishing podcasts that give you tips for selling a lot of books and the ones that only interview world-famous authors. Now it's time for a book publishing show that reveals what actually goes on behind the cover.
Hosted by New York Times bestselling author Anna David, Behind the Book Cover features interviews with traditionally published authors, independently published entrepreneurs who have used their books too seven figures to their bottom line to build their businesses and more.
Anna David has had books published by HarperCollins and Simon & Schuster and is the founder of Legacy Launch Pad, a boutique book publishing company trusted by high-income entrepreneurs to build seven-figure authority. In other words, she knows both sides—and is willing to share it all.
Come find out what traditional publishers don't want you to know.
ebner
Sun, Oct 26, 2025 1:05PM • 44:38
SPEAKERS
Speaker 1, Speaker 2, Speaker 3
Speaker 1 00:00
I that's far so I could go really, because it's out there, but
Speaker 2 00:06
because we wanted, we were like, We want to know we got a kid. Want to send them to the best it is out there, because of one of the schools. They told me that. Yeah, no, not the school gossip around it. Um, yeah. What kind of a pi would you be if you told me? I know. So we're but what we're delving into is the chaos that is the book publishing business. And since you're right
Speaker 3 00:32
in the thick of it on the last chapter,
Speaker 2 00:35
you're such a truth teller, but I want you to talk. And you know, especially you know this well, well, let's actually, Arman, let's start recording, amazing. Don't worry. All right. Abner, thank you for being
Speaker 3 00:53
here. Well, I wouldn't be here anywhere else on a Sunday morning. I
Speaker 2 00:58
mean, I would hope not. I mean, you were a big coup, wasn't he?
Speaker 3 01:01
Halloween? For God's sakes I'm trying to conjure up, you know, sense memory of how much I used to love this holiday in this time of year.
Speaker 2 01:10
Well, I gotta tell you, having a kid, I suddenly love it.
Speaker 3 01:13
Oh yeah, is are you taking the toddler out? We
Speaker 2 01:17
he, well, he's two, so we're already like, I think we should stay home and let him hand out candy, rather than, like, start running through the streets, because that might be what happens.
Speaker 3 01:26
But for God's sakes, when I was two years old, my dad was telling me to go play in traffic. Come on, kids, you know,
Speaker 2 01:33
different time, different time. Yeah, so one of the things that I love about you is that you are such a truth teller. There is no BS when you're talking to Mark eppner and so. So what I was going to say to you, before we started recording, was one of the misconceptions out there is if you were a New York Times best selling author, you are rich and famous for the rest of your life.
Speaker 3 01:59
You know, I the best thing I can say about being a New York Times best selling author is that I'm glad my father was alive when I hit the list, because that's all it paid. The dividend was making my father proud. There was no in fact, the one New York Times bestseller of all the books that I've been part of creating, it hasn't paid out of royalty yet. My shoes. What is going on? I'm serious. Is there a crooked agent who's keeping $30 checks? Because I know it's 100% this is just, you know, that's just sad,
Speaker 2 02:41
well, and also I wonder, because at the time, your co author was well known, but then he became incredibly famous,
Speaker 3 02:51
yes, and tragically passed, and then, yeah, he passed. And you know that? I just want to say one thing about that, because I've kind of been waxing nostalgic about him a little bit. I do miss that man, Andrew Breitbart, who was my co author on that book. And you know, every time I think of him, it reminds me of a time where, you know, a progressive, radical leftist like myself and a far right wing pundit guy could actually meet on the same page and get something done, yeah, and we did it. And, you know, that's, you know, that makes up for all the missing royalties, if there are, you know, if they're out there or something like that, the, you know, the publishing industry, it's, it's, it's, it's really been for cocktail, you know, I mean, I during the pandemic when I was like, just about out of hope, Harper Collins threw more money, that, you know, more money than I've ever seen at a book. It was called off the deep end. Harper Collins, it was a William Morrow imprint, and they wanted that book, and they paid large, large, that was your biggest advance, yeah, mid six figures. It was nice, yeah. And what I can say about that is, is that it ultimately was all for naught. There's a story behind what happened with the release and all that, but you can only imagine,
Speaker 2 04:26
so they lost money. They Oh, that book will never
Speaker 3 04:29
pay through. And I can tell you, it was like top down incompetence. I mean, I don't even mind saying I'm not working for Harper Collins again. So what the fuck literally the distribution, this is just one, you know, train wreck scenario. They took that book off the deep end about the fall of Jerry Falwell and the cookery around Liberty University, and as told through the. Eyes of the young, quote, unquote, pool boy. And, you know, it was a huge scandal. They wanted the book, and then through a series of misadventures with the pool boy, I have to say, not being available to do press when it came out, somehow, like a domino, everything fell on that book, Barnes and Noble. They placed it in every Barnes and Noble throughout the country, in the religion section, the worst section in a, you know, to put this book, yeah, you know. I mean, first of all, any religious person, person is going to be making a sign of a cross. If they see about a book about cookery in the in the right wing, you know they're going to, they're going to, it's going to be radioactive. And literally, I found myself I called one Barnes and Noble, then another, then I started calling him in New York, and it was all placed in the wrong section so it didn't have a chance.
Speaker 2 06:03
You know what's crazy? The last time I was in the studio, somebody sat in your exact seat telling me the same thing. He did a book about the diamond trade, and they Barnes and Noble put it in costume jewelry. Oh for God. Paul Barnes and Noble. Barnes and Noble called his publisher, and his publisher called him irate and said, Never call a bookstore again. Oh,
Speaker 3 06:23
yeah, no, I got the same thing. He goes. My editor was like, Abner, shut up. They're our partner. And I'm like, I don't really care. I'm calling every one of them out, you know, on this Yeah. And they didn't care, yeah, yeah. So that's just one of the things. So on a brighter note, I'm finishing a book now for, you know, a vanity publisher, Ben Bella books, yeah, I did one other book with him before it was poison candy, about the dahlia dippolito Craziness down in in Florida. That was a that was good, that actually pays steady royalties. You know, there's some to be said for, you know, working on the if come because, you know, when you take, as opposed to the glorious mid six figure advance, when you take, like, 20k or less, you know, to spend the next year on a book, you kind of hope it'll be, it'll work as an annuity for yourself. Unfortunately, see, here we go again. Okay, I'm finishing this book called deprogrammer. It's about, I did it with Rick Allen Ross, who is the OG, the world's foremost cult deprogrammer. I mean, this guy did Nexium, the sex cult, Scientology, of course, and every other Waco, every other cult you can think of, 40 years of doing this at his own peril. So that's an important story. I'm about a week shy of finishing that. And, you know, hopefully Ben Bella with distribution via Simon and Schuster, hopefully they can find a pipeline to turn that into a best seller. You know, they've done it before. Ben Bella has a knack for doing books like that. You know that will take off. But then, on the other hand, I mean, I really hope it pays through, because I'm pretty much done. This is an even 10 nonfiction books that I've either done myself or collaborated on, and frankly, I'm done with nonfiction, and I'll tell you why. Ai, yeah, they fucking stole my work. You know. I mean, are you in the anthropic lawsuit? I
08:47
am good 3k, a book,
Speaker 3 08:49
Good, yeah. But who knows you don't want, no, no, we'll get that. The problem is, you know, I don't know about you, but my work is worth millions, motherfucker, you know what I mean? It's
Speaker 2 09:02
you and I have very opposite opinions about AI, and we kind of got into it on Facebook. I don't know if you remember this. Yeah, right. When chat GPT came out, you jumped on it and you started this business. What's happened
Speaker 3 09:16
with that? It was called union, and it was, I got invited to Austin, Texas, couple of tech Bros and an old friend of mine from Quaker school. We're starting a company, essentially, that was anti AI. Did it happen? This is another, another fiasco. So I went down there. I said, Look, I don't know tech, but you have the tech, the tech works good. Let's, let's go for, you know, this is, this would be key in that you have the software that detects AI in photos and scripts and books and everything. I think every agent in Hollywood would want to have this as scripts are coming across their desks. I you know, lawyer, any, uh. An IP Creator would love to have this turned out, not so much. I couldn't raise a dime, and I was supposed to be their hype man for my 5% of the company. So I don't know what happened if they sold it, you know, then they owe me 5% as far as I'm concerned. But I ain't going back to Texas to chase nickels and dimes. I
Speaker 2 10:21
feel like it that the tide switched and movie studios, you think they care if it's AI, you think they care? Well, it's cheaper for them. I mean, here's here's where I am about it. Like I said, opposing POVs here the very first when the Atlantic story came out, and you could search to see if your books were on there. My hope was, Dear God, I'm gonna feel left out if they didn't take my books. And I'm terribly flattered. I do not feel like my books are worth millions. I feel like books are so devalued in our Hold on I'm listening. Okay, so the actual book is devalued. That's why I do what I do, because the value of the book is huge. If you use it to build authority, you've done it in a different way, with getting on TV, being the authority, talking about all of these things for decades, right?
Speaker 3 11:20
Yet, you're catching me at a time where I'm moving to the further, furthest reaches of LA County, nothing but views. And for all I know, I'm going to be a hermit for the rest of my life. You know, I'm just, you know, all I want to do is, you know, fortunately, I was able to do, for lack of a less cliche word, I was able to pivot, you know, when I realized that the you know what, people are like Abner, you have something to say. What can you say? How can you fix this? How can you now? I'm like, yo. Get rid of get ready for the Dark Ages. Get ready for 100 years of oligarchy. There's nothing I can say. There's no outlet that I can, you know, practice journalism to any effect. Now, that sounds really defeatist, but it's actually true. We are. I'm a powerless as a journalist this day, these days I don't have the outlets anyway, and with books, you know, it'll be too little too late. You can, you know, you can tear you can cut down 1000 trees to make a book, but for that book to make a difference, you know, what a crap shoot, you know. So what I did was I just took my investigative skills and now I do private investigations. And, you know, I own 30% of the company, and we have offices here and in Florida. I'm not trying to pitch the services, because word of mouth is good to me. I've used it. Thank you. Yeah, get your endorsement. I love it, but at the same time, it's the same job, yeah, it's a different hat, and there's zero pros. I don't have to like be embarrassed by the purple shit that I sling across a page anymore. I can just do what I do, do it well, and hopefully build some equity up in this country now, in this company. Excuse me, but now I took a hard right there. So bring it back to publishing, and let's put a pin in. Ai, maybe we can. It's, I find it's very suspect to me. AI, the cheats that people use. Yeah, it's okay, but you can Google the same thing and you'll probably get better results or more accurate results. I feel that way. Well, okay, I'll give you examples where it hasn't worked. In the book trade, I have a long relationship. I have a team I work with. I'm like, you know the Robert Greene of crime, true crime
14:05
is he still is big, still your agent? No, no,
Speaker 3 14:08
I long since I just work with my literary manager, Joel gottler, you introduced me to him, yeah. I know. Sorry, yeah, and I love you, Joel, he just, he's recovering from pretty I know, and I got a book agent in New York, catalyst, lit, Murray Weiss, if you when you do your next book and you want an agent, call Murray, because all of us should have an agent named Murray, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2 14:38
But nobody, as far as I'm concerned, should have an agent, because you shouldn't be working in the traditional publishing world. Go
Speaker 3 14:43
on, ah, you know, um, you a guy like Maury? I know I Well, what I'm saying is, I'm, you know, I'm talking, you know, I'm sure you have another book or 10 in you, yeah? But you know, I'm at the end of the road, the rubber has met it, and. And so I'm just sort of like, let's see if this book the D programmer, you know, if it makes a difference, you know, because it was a hard job to take. You know, after you get not life changing money, but you get a nice sum. For the last book, it's like, do I really want to work for nothing over the next year, and my friend the writer, Judith Newman, really kind of talked me into it. She Vanity Fair New York Times. She just said, Mark is the story, the one you want. Do you really want to tell it? And I thought about it, and I was like, Yeah, I do want to tell this story. And it's fitting that in terms of the arc of my life, from cults with spy magazine investigating Scientology back in the 90s, to finally putting it a pen in it, that's what I love. So I have done that, the AI thing, the one anecdote I wanted to give you about that is so I have my team. We do books. I was jokingly, I'm not comparing myself to Robert Greene, but he's been on this podcast. I do. He's awesome, but I do. I work with the team myself. In other words, I have a long suffering transcriber. Now, that may not seem a lot. But you know, when you're doing nonfiction, okay, the transcribe you you want that to be perfect for legal reasons and otherwise. Let me finish. Her name Sylvia juncosa. She's an ex punk rock star, LA, born and bred. She's awesome. She does. She has done the last, I would say six or seven books, all the interview transcribing. Is she letter perfect? No, no. Human is okay. This time around, I was like Sylvia, you know, I'm paying you she I have a rate that she gets, and I love having her on my team. And now I'm going to go out of pocket for a whole, a percentage of, a big percentage of what I'm getting with the advance from Ben Pell. Ben Bella, I called her up. I said, It's you versus AI Sylvia, and I put them to the test. You know, literally put them to the test with the same otter, with this otter, what I tried them all. Yeah, guess who won Don't tell me. Sylvia Jim kosa beat AI. And I was like, You're fucking hired, I'm sure. And I will, yeah. So there's another argument, accuracy, but hugely
Speaker 2 17:32
important. I don't think anybody thinks AI at this point is going
Speaker 3 17:38
to know. Everybody's using it all journalists.
Speaker 2 17:41
I use it all day long. However, if it's important that every word is correct, I'll go in and listen and make sure it's correct. A lot of the stuff I'm transcribing zoom calls with somebody that aren't interviewed
Speaker 3 17:54
right. But guess what? If you have to go in and listen, then what's the point of using AI in the first place? If it can't get it right.
Speaker 2 18:01
I would just all I'm saying is that there are plenty of things that I record that it doesn't have to be 100% accurate, because we're not talking about this.
Speaker 3 18:10
No, I get it. Same thing, I get it. But when you're doing nonfiction, when you're doing journal, one word, could get you a fucking lawsuit. I swear to God,
18:19
you've been sued. How many times
Speaker 3 18:23
been named in a bunch of lawsuits as a journalist, you know, I got the Marty singer letters, you know, hanging on my wall. Interestingly enough, I've never been sued successfully. I've either gotten my with Gawker. For instance, there was a sex tape in broglio. You involved? Well, you remember Eric Dane, poor guy. He's got some, like, auto that's really, oh, I remember that sex tape. Yeah, you know the tape? It wasn't, it was like, I called it a and for context for your listeners, before Peter Thiel Sue gawk sued Gawker Media out of existence over his petty grievance of them outing him as gay. Like everyone didn't know that. I that was a good part of my income was selling stuff, you know, selling stuff to Gawker and this Eric Dane, Rebecca, gay heart in a bathtub, doing blow, smoking weed, walking around nude. You know it was I called it. What do you call it when it's been a while, when you're getting warmed up in sex? It's called pre something.
19:41
You mean what they do in porn? No, just,
Speaker 3 19:44
you know, not fluffing. But the point was, was that it wasn't quite sex. There was nothing hardcore about it, yeah. And the thing was, was that I looked at it and I'm like, I'm not a sex tape broker. Never have been. You want a sex tape broker? Call my boy, Kevin Blatt, do you know Kevin? I do not. You got to have him on the show. He's just,
Speaker 2 20:05
I mean, this is about book publishing and the death of book publishing. Well,
Speaker 3 20:09
you know, I don't know but, but I will say this about him. He definitely has a book in him. Anyway. He's the broker. I'm not. But if I see something like this and I can wrap a story around it, then, you know what? It's just there it is, you know. And the story was Carrie, Anna panish, what is the former Miss Teen, USA, you know, from a great barrier Bay Area family. I think her mom invented Lumineers, or, you know, for your teeth, or so, yeah, she was from a great family. She, you know, was, you know, here taken working as a as a madam in Hollywood, and at the same time, it seemed like she was taking one little party on the chin and joined in. And I was like, There's a story I can wrap around this. And believe me, Gawker would pay me well for for that and and what was the point? Gets thrown out of sued, out of existence. Why am I talking about? God? I don't
Speaker 2 21:14
know, but I will say again something I sort of just do disagree with. You know, the the impact that has on someone's life. I don't want to get into that right now. Oh, I see what you mean. It doesn't matter. But, I mean, I'm not 100%
Speaker 3 21:26
No, I walked on the set after that came out. I was a buddy of mine was producing that. I think this movie was called striptease. It had Cher and Eric Dane. Maybe I'm wrong with the name of it. It was, like, it was this huge, maybe no. Demi Moore, no, it was Eric Dane Cher, okay. It was just crazy flamboyant burlesque, something like, I don't know what it was, but I saw him on the set. I got a set visit, and I saw me, didn't look too happy. And I was like, fuck, did I do that? And now the man is like, dying. I'm like, Jesus, you know. And part, you know, it's, it's easy to to, you know, in other words, to think that I had any, any part in, you know, you know, someone else's downfall, like that would be like reverse grandiosity, you know, he doesn't even know who I fucking AM. Probably, you know, although I was named in that lawsuit, that's what we were talking how many times you've been sued. So I'm named in that I call up Gawker. Take my name off that lawsuit. I want it off. Done. Okay? And then Gawker settled. They paid an interesting case. By the way, Eric Dane and and Rebecca declared that videotape is intellectual property, and said, We're make we made a film, and that's how they succeeded in the lawsuit. And Gawker had to pay him 100 grand, so I stayed out of that. Scientology has put me on notice. I don't know how many times, you know, I've had ridiculous threats. I've gone on CNN, I was talking about Bill Cosby, you know, I was way ahead of the game on that by over a decade. Well, you know, I called out a wire service on CNN live satellite. I'm in LA who's the CNN guy? Larry King, no, come on. The gray hair guy, young, beautiful, gay. Anderson Cooper, AC, I'm on his show, AC, something or other. And, you know, so I was saying, Look, Anderson, we're journalists, right, you know, because I was pretty angry, and I said, you know, even, and I mentioned a wire service, I won't mention it here, but I will say this, the editor when I submitted my expose on for that wire service to deal with, wrote me back saying, we don't want to defame Mr. Cosby. So I gave him that anecdote. I said, this is what it's like going, you know, with the press who don't want to tear down an icon, you know, when he's already torn down himself by drugging and raping women in a serial fashion, right? So here's where I got pissed. I get a call. I'm having lunch. I was married at the time. I'm having lunch with my ex wife, Michelle at the Abbey, you know? And we're sitting there, and all of a sudden my phone blows up like red flashing. I'm like, What the fuck is going on? It's, it's the, whoops, almost. It's the wire service, and it's their lawyer, and he's like, Abner, that didn't happen. And I was like, what? And he goes, what you said? And I said. And they go, who's your source? Which editor? And I. Like, and I was like, Are you kidding me? Yeah, are you're calling me to, you know, to give up a source. Yeah, the fuck off. Hung up, right anyway, back and forth, back and forth. The next day, the wire service had Anderson Cooper give a retraction for what I said on the air. Funny thing though, they never called me, you know, they never called me to produce the email or to be able to, you know, counter that. It's sort of like, you know, they're burying us. You know, not only is journalism dead now they're killing us. You know, they're just making impossible, impossible to make a living. And you see that in the Pentagon,
Speaker 2 25:44
yes, are hard to keep on track. Yeah, the brain, the Ebner brain, goes in so many directions.
Speaker 3 25:52
I'm just an old Stoner, Anna, I'm sorry, but you keep me on track and we'll
Speaker 2 25:58
I knew you when you were not a stoner. Different topic. So, so the this book publishing thing, so your first book is that book with Breitbart
Speaker 3 26:08
that wasn't my first, but no, I did a collaboration with Harry Knowles from Maine, cool news, Paul column. We as a triumvirate, we got together and did a book called ain it cool. Hollywood's red headed stepchild speaks out. And that was for Warner books. And yes, that was the first
Speaker 2 26:32
and so, and then you did Hollywood interrupted. And then six degrees of Paris,
Speaker 3 26:36
Hilton. Six Degrees of Paris. Hilton, I always you know because you know, because I want people to write that you know, you feel good when that's that's your book, that's the one you know, that you know I wasn't in collaboration telling somebody else's story, which is another reason why I'm at a crossroads that in my life, which we can get To. But with that book, it was my story, because I was reporting crimes as they happen in real time for a book with a deadline. And you know, no matter what people say about it, it is, you know, that's, that's my defining nonfiction work. You know
Speaker 2 27:19
for sure, you interviewed me for it, I can't remember what I probably had. It must have had to do with sex. No, it had to do with celebrity. It had to do and sex. I don't remember, but I do remember that, that I was quite honored to be interviewed by the great Mark Abner and sex. Yeah, first line of that, what was that first line in your Scientology story? I am
Speaker 3 27:40
an ex drug addict. I've cavorted with prostitutes in my day. I owe the IRS $6,000 I've masturbated and inhaled at the same time. Remember Clinton era for that? That's how far that goes
Speaker 2 27:54
back those lot that was considered such a classic, yeah, and
Speaker 3 27:58
it didn't. It inured me from cancelation from my entire career, it's like, well, what the fuck are you gonna do a I'm a freelancer, and it still holds true. My entire life, I've been immune from cancelation by canceling myself at the very beginning of my career.
Speaker 2 28:14
Very true. Thank you. So so if the book publishing business is as screwed up as it is, why did you do so many books?
Speaker 3 28:24
Why do you I would say only because at around, I think it was 2000 I was doing a radio show, and small, little awful weekend syndicated, hot button topic talk radio show, and I knew I was at a crossroads then, because the internet was definitely, you know, starting to happen. And I was like, this is really I knew I'm that it was going to start eating it was going to eat up my career. And it started to do that. IE, all of a sudden, all the Laddie magazines you and I both wrote for, you know, details, Rolling Stone, all of them there, the print is gone. So I'm not making $10,000 a feature with, you know, business class travel around the world twice, in both different directions. I love that. Don't get me wrong, when I got International, I was like, I had my go bag. I was flying high, making great money and enjoying my life in the 90s. And then everything changed, and I knew it. So you move to a longer form, you do books, it's the same shit. You sit, you listen, you interview, you hire your punk rock transcriber to do the transcripts, and you have a book, it just spills out if you if you know how to ask the right questions and you know how to listen, that's on the collaboration. On my own, that's a whole other train wreck.
Speaker 2 29:57
So it started off. Pretty good, right? Sure. I mean, and then it was gone. So second book hits the New York Times list. Dad's proud, right? Yeah, then you have the seminal book that you write. By three
Speaker 3 30:10
months later, I'm broken, living in my 1969 VW bus with my pit bulls Roxy and poor boy with the New York Times just fresh off the list. That's what happened. I got broke and you know, and you want to understand the everything that went around that when I was in New York with Andrew Breitbart touring Hollywood interrupted. I get a we get a call in our rooms. Mark, and row. It's Joanie Evans, the number one book agent at William Morris Endeavor. I'm buying you breakfast. Come on down. We come on down. She poached us from our boutique agent. I won't mention them, I probably should, because I feel bad, yeah? Because now you know, we, we let her poach us. Yeah, signed with William Morris Endeavor, and nothing's going on. And then, when I was so fed up without for not being able to get the Bill Cosby story out there, I wrote a proposal called jell O man. Send it her way. A week goes by. I call her up. I'm like, Joanie. She's like, Mark. Do you realize how long Mr. Cosby has been a client of William Morris? And I'm like, Joanie, is that a deal breaker? I'm afraid it is Mark. I'm afraid you're fucking fired. And that's when I signed with a literary manager and dispensed with the idea that life is my professional life is going to be any better with one of these big agencies, because I was, I've been with ICM, I've been with all those big agencies, and you know, way worse you have your chops, You're going to get published. I don't want to paint this dire picture, you know, for writer, you know, writers that may or may not be listening, you know, it's you know, don't be fooled by the old saws about like you need this or you need that. Hell. Everybody's independently publishing anyway. So, you know, yeah, I had a it's the Hunger Games for authors. I'm at it. I am so gone. I wish I could tell you where I'm moving, but I am moving to a place where there is nothing but views. You already told me off the record, okay, and we'll keep it that way. Nobody needs to know where I live. I got a lot of enemies, I gotta tell you. And you know, in this age of paranoia, it's kind of funny, I'll spin back to being a PI. Business is booming because of that. I mean, I spend more time counseling people than I do actual work sometimes, because they're like, they're in my computer, they're in the walls, you know, they're following me. And I'm like, yes, they are. Now, just relax. You know, we're all being followed. Okay, no, nobody's in your computer. Now you can pay me $1,500 and I'll come down and scan everything. Well, Mark Zuckerberg is in their computer. Yes, exactly. So I'm trying to say, Yes, you are. Get used to it instead of letting this,
Speaker 2 33:25
aren't you? Are your people meth addicts? Why do they? Why do they think? No,
Speaker 3 33:29
they're, they're legitimately, you know, paranoid. Yeah, they hear things and see things and it's, and this is not such a huge portion, like I intoned like, three seconds ago. But ultimately, you know, at the end of it, if I go and do, you know, sweep their entire living space and their phones and their computers, when it turns up that there's nothing right, you know it's okay. You sold them peace of mind. And quite often, the client might say, so I'm the crazy one, and I'm like, No, you're not. This is,
34:06
this is like 22 it's
Speaker 3 34:08
really is. And you know, if you're walking away with peace of mind, then the job was good, you know.
Speaker 2 34:15
So as a PI Do you have a much steadier income than you did as a New York Times best selling author,
Speaker 3 34:23
that that's a really good question. If I'm on a big job, if some you know, billionaire and nosebleed Beverly Hills hire hires me, I know that that's going to be six weeks to three months easy job. And that's a that's a living, right there, you know, I don't need to get into what my rates might be, but they're, you know, you have a sense of it. Your friends and family hired by a lawyer, they're paying 3x what I would charge you, you know. So, so the money is good, and it comes in in spurts. And. And I'm like sitting there and like trying to, you know, you know, then a week will go by and I'll have a process serving, you know, there's a child custody. I got to serve something, and you'll get an anecdote. The other day, I had to serve this guy in Beverly Hills, and he was, he was ducking service. The client had hired one of those, like ABC, off the internet, 4995 you know. And they don't do shit, you know. You want to get somebody, you got to know how to get somebody. And I got to get but the funny part about it was, I was like, Fletch, remember that movie? Yeah, I'm like a pi I brought a bait dog, a little havanas, a little Frou, Frou dog with me so I could walk my the dog in front of his house until he came out. I had my I had the papers, court papers, you know, tucked into the back of my belt. And I'm just walking the dog back and forth in Beverly Hills. Friends always have, you know, resources, and this little dog. I saw him. He came out to get in his car. I grabbed the little dog, and I go, Miss you're served. And so, you know, that's a morning's work right there, but that may be the end of the day. You never know when the calls are coming in. Another problem with it is, it's a 24/7 job, yeah, you know, so that you have to be, you know. And you know, I have enough problems finding my way to your podcast studio, let alone but when I get into I will say this in my defenses, is that I know my limitations. I'm not a tech guy, so I have a database guy, you know. You know, I'm not a big guy. I have a guy who's begging. Can carry a gun, you know? But what I do have that you can't take away aren't in, you know, inherent investigative skills that work quite well in this job. So word of mouth doing just fine,
Speaker 2 37:02
yeah? And like you said, it's the same skill set that you used in your Yeah,
Speaker 3 37:07
maybe there's a book in it down the line, you know, but I will say this, you know, I think I'm done telling other people's stories, you know. And no offense to those people. There's a reason and a method behind why. And you know this too, you want to collaborate with people, not necessarily that they have stories that are far better than your own, you know, but in that they their stories have to be told. And if you you're the one that can do it, then you know so much the better you know, perhaps there's a memoir there. I got a title for it. That's about it. I'm not gonna like it's called dirt bag. Watch for it in 20 years, you know. But I'm toying with that in my mind. But, you know, I don't know. It's kind of bittersweet. Anna, this may be our last publishing interview, because I might not have anything to say in another year,
Speaker 2 38:02
you and everybody that I knew from that era in my life, when we were all kind of flying high, late 90s, early 2000s God, glamorous, fun being in Book, book publishing, having the whole thing, And then it just died.
Speaker 3 38:20
Just died. It was like, you know, I mean, I got with Daily Beast, you know, had a very sympathetic editor there, you know, I was doing regular stuff for them, breaking pretty big stories. And yet, at the same time, every time it came to getting paid, it was like nickels on the dollar. You know, it was just that. It was so I was like, how, you know, journalism is a rich kids game. Now, you got to have something you got, you know, and, and then what happens is, when you look at the internet, if you're up at night, Doom scrolling like I'm prone to do, you get to see what passes, what passes for journalism. And it is a scary world out there, because that ain't journalism. That's content. You know, that is, you know, whatever you're doing. It's got me looking at it, but it's, there's no, there's no story being told. There's no sourcing here. There's nothing typos, yeah, and what's happening so?
Speaker 2 39:25
So what do you say to people? Do people say to you, hey, I want to publish a book. How do I get an agent? How do I get on the New York Times?
Speaker 3 39:34
It's really, I get that a lot, and if I like the person and they're talented, I turn I say call Murray. Oh, really, yeah, and Murray, you know, if you know, if you're good, it'd give you a shot. And you know, consequently, the last guy I referred to, to him, got a three book deal, not a big deal, was with Kensington. So, you know, the money's not great, but for three books. Books of a genre, and, and I remember he thanked me in the book, and he said, I want to thank Mark Ebner for, you know, introducing me to his agent. Nice. And then he wrote, who does that I do? Wouldn't. Why wouldn't we? You know, that's, that's just the flow. That's the whole way it's ever worked for me, is to just be giving it away, you know, the principle I'm talking about. But you know, that's, that's how we continue working. And what is it? You know, I like this guy. He's talented, you know, I'm so happy he got a deal, you know, that's with anybody, um, so I saw if they're good, you know, um. And you know that this, that may be rather grandiose of me to say, because who am I to judge if anyone's good? You know, everybody's got their taste. I guess, if they're sincere and they're they really want to write a book. You know, it's like, you know, young journalists, are you ready? Do you want to do this? But you know, this is how you what you have to do.
Speaker 2 41:07
Say even, I think this was 15 years ago, our mutual friend Richard rushfield said to me that we were talking about that charity, eight to six LA, that helps kids develop their writing skills. And he's like, What a horrible thing to tell somebody to go into book writing, what a horrible thing. Oh, that's
Speaker 3 41:25
so funny, but so that must have hurt you were, what did you have party girl coming out? Or no,
Speaker 2 41:33
I'm with him. I had just done my sixth book, and I was like, I gotta find something else. And that's why those of us who were, you know, smart enough to get out? Jumped
Speaker 3 41:43
out. Yeah. Are you gonna get Richard in the hot seat? I plan to, you know, he's a busy dude. He's a busy dude with ankler. And I, my anecdote with him is, is that, you know, I've known him as long as I've known you and and about, feels like 10 years ago. He goes, Hey, Ebner, oh yeah. He goes, You got to get into the newsletter business. And I was, what's that? You know what? I mean, I didn't substantive sub stack wasn't around. I didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. And boy, was he right. He made a killing. Forget it.
Speaker 2 42:18
I know. He took me to lunch. And he said, I've got this great idea, and I really want to really respect your opinion. I want to start a newsletter that's paid. And I said, I can't even people get people to open my free newsletter. Terrible. I did do anything else cut to that's a multi million dollar business. It is. He did it right, but, but nobody deserved it more. Oh, I agree, for
Speaker 3 42:41
sure. I agree, you know, and and he deserves it. Because, honestly, God, that goes back to what I was saying about giving it up, giving it away, helping people out. He was always like that, one of the more more generous people out there. So he deserves every bit of success. We got to wrap up. What do you want to how do you want to blow this up?
Speaker 2 43:06
How can people find you if they are crazy, find you
43:09
want to hear crazy? 310-738-0572, Call me when you're out of options,
Speaker 2 43:16
but don't come. Find him where he lives, finding
43:21
me where I lives, although you're invited up to the house warming,
Speaker 2 43:24
that is really sweet. And I gotta say, when I used you, I needed you once. No, I needed you twice. Within one hour, you had located somebody that had moved in six hours before. Do you remember it was not long ago? I
Speaker 3 43:40
do, and honestly, it's it, you know, it, it takes a good team to be able to do that. I wish I could take credit for the database work that you know. My partners in investigations. They're really good at that stuff. And
Speaker 2 43:59
so if you need, you got to call lebner. There's no one else to call.
Speaker 3 44:03
Yeah, you know what? I honestly there's that, and I just throw my number out there because I'm still at the very place where you and I started. I don't know, I don't want to date us, but it's, we're like, two decades now, isn't it? Right? If not more, yeah. So what I'm saying is, it's sort of like, yeah, full circle, hey, you know what? Call me. I'm freelance. Maybe I can figure something out for you.
Speaker 2 44:29
Thanks, Anna, of course, always a pleasure. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
44:33
You bet. Thank you. We had fun. God, I knew.