097 | Racheal Vaughan Jones | Mastery & Imagination: How Compass Box is Redefining Whisky Marketing

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode, Chris Maffeo speaks to Racheal Vaughan Jones and discusses how Compass Box has positioned itself as "whisky makers" in the Scotch whisky industry. Founded in 2000 with a mission to make the Scotch world more interesting, Compass Box balances mastery and imagination in its brand essence.

Recently, the company streamlined its core range into a more intuitive collection of four distinct flavor territories while maintaining its artistic limited editions.

Racheal shares insights into its recent brand positioning, "Long Live Interesting," and how it has successfully translated it through packaging, communication, and targeted campaign activations across key cities.

The brand's recent award-winning "Hedonism" limited edition showcases its collaboration with female artists and embodies its philosophy of starting with an organically evolving idea.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:30 Special Guest Introduction

01:53 The Story of Compass Box

04:23 Brand Positioning and Marketing

10:29 Core Range and Consumer Experience

14:29 Limited Editions and Awards

20:05 Limited edition approach with Hedonism

26:06 Communication and Marketing Strategies

30:30 Localized activation and content strategy

33:45 Creating demand and brand-building philosophy

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Racheal Vaughan Jones

CMO | Compass Box Whisky

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20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

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Welcome to the Mafia drinks
podcast where brands are built

bottom up.
I'm Chris Mafia and in each

episode me and a new guest crack
how drinks go from 1 bottle to 1

case to 1 pallet hit follow and
leave a review to help new

drinks builders find it.
Now let's break it down

together.
Rachel.

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

Finally, I am here very excited.
I will also introduce our

potential special guest, my dog
Marty, who is currently being

quiet more behaved.
If he pops his head up, everyone

knows that's our special guest.
Most forgot he was.

There.
I hope it stays that way.

I hope he fall asleep with my
voice.

Maybe it helps.
That's fantastic to have you.

I wanted to have you for a long
time.

Finally we managed to meet even
in person at BCB last year.

That was a fantastic moment.
We have a photo that I've saved

for this occasion.
Yeah, amazing.

I mean, we first spoke in 2020,
back in the days of Clubhouse

RIP.
We've been in touch ever since.

But it was so nice to see you
finally in the flesh.

It's another of those nice
clubhouse connections that

lasted a long time and.
I will tell my favorite story

about you from BCB, which was
kind of a genius move, but when

you had forgotten your room key
and they asked for

identification, you didn't have
your wallet.

You showed them your mafia
drinks podcast, Instagram as

proof of who you were and it
worked.

I forgot about that.
Yes I did.

I did it that way.
It's a live hack.

I've been following your path
for a long time.

I've realized we have hundreds
of friends in common, in the

industry and outside what I
really love and want to focus

on.
In this latest episodes, I'm

trying to focus on one rather
than going the full circle of

building brands.
What I particularly love about

the worked you and the team at
Compost Box have been doing is

the translation of the brand
positioning and what Compost Box

stands for into all the steps
and touch points.

How does that translate into the
range others that translate into

packaging, expressions,
communication because I saw your

first billboard campaign and
outdoor campaign.

So analyse all these nice
elements.

So let's start first.
Like Compass Box.

I love what how you describe
yourself.

You're not blenders, you're not
distillers, but you are.

Whiskey makers, Yeah.
So whiskey maker, it's a word

that Compass Box actually
invented it.

So Compass Box has been around
since the year 2000 and back

then when the brown was found,
when the brown was founded, we

wanted a word to describe
ourselves.

It's kind of different to a
distiller because we're taking

liquids that have already been
distilled and blending them

together.
But we felt it was more than

blending because it's about the
totality of the whiskey, not

just the liquid in the bottle
that's blended together, but the

packaging, the storytelling, the
atmosphere you create around it.

For us, whiskey maker Felt
Apartment, John Glaze, the

founder of Compass Books,
studied viticulture and was

interested in winemaking.
He took inspiration from that

territory and thought, hey,
whiskey maker makes sense.

It's been amazing to see over
the years, so many brands have

adopted that word now, and I
think it really speaks to how

people are taking a more broad
approach to what they're doing.

It's not just about the liquid
that's blended together, it's

about the whole package.
I love it, love it.

And when I read it and heard it,
I immediately thought about the

word.
I sort of invented drinks

builders.
There's people in marketing,

sales, customer service,
bartenders, import distributors.

We are all ultimately drinks
builders, not only brand

builders that it's only a like a
marketing connotation, but it's

something you are really making
and building.

I love how you bring it to life
and especially the position of

how would you explain the
positioning of Compass Box and

what you are doing?
Yeah.

So Compass Books, we were
founded with the mission of

making the world of Scotch a
more interesting than I think 25

years later we can say that you
know, that category is

definitely far more interesting.
There are lots of amazing

brands, blends as well that are
doing incredible things and

that's really positive to see.
At our core, we have two things

that we talk about as our brand
essence and they are mastery and

imagination.
When you have a brand like

Compass Box that is so
distinctive, the range, they're

all very unique.
They all have their own kind of

personality.
They all have their own style.

And previously it may be we're
seeing more of the kind of House

of brands rather than a branded
house.

We've worked hard over the last
couple of years to bring that

together to be, you know, the
brand of Compass Box.

But what runs through every
single thing that we do is

mastery and imagination.
That is how we try to keep

consistency across all the
different touch points.

We did a lot of work to
understand how do we translate

that brand positioning into
something that consumers can

relate to in an emotional way,
connect in an emotional way.

We worked with an amazing agency
called John Doe.

We've looked at the world around
us and the world that consumers

are existing in.
The mundane daily activities,

the commute, the news being
absolutely awful to look at.

Every single day there's
something terrible happening

somewhere in the world and also
the being this desire for

lightness in the world.
So we came up with this brand

platform that was death.
The board and boringness is our

enemy as a brand and what we
bring is interesting.

We came up with the consumer
line Long live Interesting,

which is our rallying call to
arms for all those who are bored

and want to wake up from this
vanilla nightmare.

Join us on this mission to bring
interesting into people's lives.

I don't want to run into the
packaging because I want to ask

you questions later, but I
really love the brand.

I think it's one of the coolest
brands out there at the moment.

What I love is the initial
mission that I as I understood

it to bring blended whiskey back
to its due glory in a world

where only single males were
considered first class kind of

Scotch and blended was like a
commodity bulk ship it

everywhere and and sell it
everywhere but really understand

you can't going back to the
liquid.

One of the things that I was
discussing originally back in

the days when I also had more is
and as a guest, it was does it

start from the brand or from the
liquid?

I want to ask you that question
now.

What's your take?
Does it start from the brand of

the liquid?
It's a really good question

actually be surprised how often
I do get asked what is the

driver for, you know, we launch
really interesting limited

editions every year and where
does that start is very much

collaborative process between
whiskey making and kind of

marketing.
So marketing bring that kind of

consumer angle whilst whiskey
making are really trying to

deliver something that is
unexpected that you know,

incites people to ask questions,
to do things that haven't been

done before.
I think Compass Box founded in

2000, launched with a blended
grain exactly as you said in

2000.
Blends were definitely seen as

less than and grain was seen as
less than, right?

Everyone was obsessed with
single moles and we launched

with a blended grain.
It was the first blended grain

ever launched.
We believe that treated in the

right way, left in the right
casks, blended together in the

most perfect way, and then
presented in a way that was

different to what else was out
there that was worth showing

people how delicious grain could
be.

Thankfully, perceptions have
changed and people love grain

whiskey now.
That ethos runs across

everything we do and we don't
really care about the rules.

We're we're willing to push the
boundaries, experiment in ways

that potentially occasionally
has been known to upset the SWA,

but it's all in this pursuit of
doing things that are going to

encourage people to change the
way they think about whiskey and

blends particularly.
It's interesting to hear that if

you look at it, I'm always
talking against this thing.

People look at IWSR and reports
loud.

This category is growing.
Let's focus on this one.

Let's launch there.
Anybody looking at the situation

of blended whiskey back then
would have never had the

business idea of taking that
category and trying to grow it.

So interesting how you can find
these categories, when to focus

and build them bottom up.
It really doesn't matter how big

the category is at that time
because the category is a

certain size because of certain
players are acting a certain

way, but not necessarily because
what you can do and how you can

move the needle.
Yeah, being clear about what you

stand for and who you want to
drink your product is really

important.
We have always said we're not

trying to recruit people into
the whiskey category.

There are amazing, delicious
brands out there with humongous

budgets who can do the heavy
lifting of getting people who

maybe previously haven't thought
about being a whiskey drinker.

They can bring them into the
category.

For us, we're only interested
when they're already on that

journey.
And the second thing is we will

not defend the blend.
I used to work many years ago on

Valentine's Prestige, mainly on
Asian markets.

Every conversation had to start
with, well, blends are just as

good as single malts.
And let me tell you the reasons

why.
It's maybe about the occasion

and yada yada, yada.
You'd always have to start by

defending something before
introducing a brand.

But Compass Box, we're like, if
someone is, you know, staunchly

wedded to only drinking single
malts, we're not really

interested.
We are interested in people who

are open minded, who want to try
different things and explore the

category.
Being really clear on that means

we cut out a bunch of crap from
our messaging because that would

takes away from us delivering
who Compass Box is.

Let me ask you, you know my deep
hate for target consumers and my

love for target occasions when I
see the packaging and I taste it

at your standard.
That BCB it was, was very

interesting to me was
understanding the range.

There was a very little overlap
or cannibalization between the

different ranges back then.
I remember that, you know,

there's also be an evolution
because the range used to be

much bigger.
Now it's more streamlined.

I don't know if you call them
taste profiles or flavor profile

or target occasions.
Do you know what to expect when

you look at the bottle and see
what's written there and the

visuals it gives you?
Yeah, I think that's really

important.
We had a core range of seven,

immediate red flag.
And there was exactly as you

say, there was crossover between
some W2 of my favorite whiskeys,

which are now retired.
Spice Tree and Story of the

Spaniard were both in our core
range and yes, whilst they were

different, there was overlap.
Consumers didn't understand,

like if I like a bit of Sherry,
bit of spice, which one do I

choose?
It was very confusing.

So what we wanted to be laser
focused on creating almost a

capsule core collection that
with each of those 4 whiskeys,

you could explore each of the
key flavor territories within

whiskey.
And I think that's something all

brands can consider when
developing a range.

It's not exclusive to us.
I share your views on being

specific about consumer targets
because there's in sectionality

across everything.
People who drink Compass Box

only interested in whiskey.
They are also interested in a

lot of different kind of areas
of people's lives.

But back to the core range.
At the most basic level, we have

Orchard House, which is fruity.
We have Nectarosity, which is

oak influence.
If you love bourbon, you're

going to love nectarosity.
If you like Pete, Pete Monsters

for you.
And if you like Sherry, Crimson

Casks is the one for you.
People can now go to Compass Box

if they've never discovered us
before and like a Sherry

whiskey, they can say I'm going
to like Crimson casks.

In an ideal world, they would
explore all the different

whiskeys in the range at its
base level, easier to understand

and navigate.
I really like the clarity that

it's now conveyed, but at the
same time I was seeing the

evolution because if I remember
correctly before it was more

expression focused.
I spoke to a lot of people when

mentioning Compass Box in the
past, they didn't know the

brand, for example.
And then I would say, do you

know the Pete Monster?
Yeah, yeah, I know the Pete

Monsters.
Yeah.

That's Compost Box.
I've seen that now.

It's interesting for listeners
thinking of how to improve their

packaging and range.
There's been an evolution.

Can you walk us through?
You hit the nail on the head.

We did some consumer research a
couple of years ago.

Consumers could recall the Pete
Monster Orchard House, but

nobody could recall Compass Box.
And you know, in this moving

away from being being a House of
brands to a branded house, we

knew that we needed to improve
the hierarchy of messaging, make

sure that Compass Box was the
lead thing.

This works with our new comms
platform where we're trying to

communicate as a brand rather
than through each expression.

We re looked at the packaging in
its base form.

It sounds really simple, but
made the logo a hell of a lot

bigger and moved the product
names down into a lower band so

that when you look at it, the
first thing you see, a compass

box.
You can navigate through the

product specifics from a panel
at the bottom that's consistent

across all four.
I think we still have work to

do.
This change launched in the UK

in July when rolled out in the
US in September.

It's still early days.
The great thing about being a

challenger brand in a more agile
company is that we can listen.

We can learn quickly, improve
and iterate within that listen

and learn phase.
And what about how you play in

terms of hierarchy?
I've seen that you've got,

you've also got some limited
releases as well as the core

range, right?
Yeah.

We do.
I have no issue speaking

transparently to say that over
the years we probably did too

many limited editions.
I've never tasted a Compass Box

whiskey that wasn't absolutely
delicious.

Didn't surprise and delight me.
But when you're trying to build

a brand, you know to grow and
build a brand, you need to build

from your core range.
You need people picking up a

bottle of your core collection,
drinking, enjoying it, buying it

again and sharing it with
friends.

You can't really build brand
equity through limited editions,

in my opinion.
They can provide a good moment

to tell a story, push a story to
extremes, create a new news, but

you need to be focused on your
core collection.

All limited editions in the past
have always been very different.

Each time we launch one, it's
like launching.

And what we're doing now is
we're being very targeted in our

approach linking our future
limited editions to a core

collection bottle.
So not in terms of packaging,

but in terms of following the
thread of flavor.

So back to fruity bourbon,
pizza, cherry, how do we take

one of those territories, give
it a new spin and push it to the

extreme?
Hopefully that will help

consumers navigate and much more
easily.

My news are usually LinkedIn.
So you won, you just recently

won an award from what was the
experience business or?

We won best marketing campaign
of 2024 which was very exciting.

This is an industry award and to
be to be considered nominated

and win awards alongside so many
brands that we admire.

You know, the guys at 2 Drifters
won.

I think they might have won two
awards actually.

Like, you know, it's really
amazing to feel that when you're

up against such incredible
brands.

At the end of the day, take the
win, move on, do more, do

better, keep pushing forward.
Because at the end of the day,

it's the consumers who matter.
Our job is to reach millions

more of them.
And I mean, you also probably

know I'm not a big fan of
awards, but what I liked about

this one was it was really
something I had been seen.

I've seen the video of hedonism.
I love this.

From grain to gold, what I loved
about it is the fact that you

see something in action and then
you see an award.

While what I usually don't like
it when I see awards is when I

see that somebody won an award
for something I have never seen

before.
And then it's like, what's this

all about?
Can you walk us through?

Because it's connected to this
limited edition that you were

mentioning before.
Let me understand if I got it

right.
From what I've read, the

hedonism used to be the first
expression created by Compass

Box and it used to be a regular
range bottle and now you moved

it into a limited edition layer.
Exactly that.

So Hedonism was the first
whiskey we ever launched.

A couple of years ago, we
realized that thanks to the fact

that grain whiskey had grown so
much in popularity, we were

struggling to get hold of the
older and rarer grain whiskies

that we needed to make the
volumes for Hedonism to remain

as a core whiskey.
Compass Box was never going to

make Hedonism a whiskey that was
less than, you know, by using

younger or not as good grain
whiskies to maintain the volume.

We were never going to do that.
So we decided that we'd make it

a limited annual release and
release as many bottles as we

could based on inventory for
that particular year.

So it comes out every year in
February.

And another first for Hedonism
was the fact that Hedonism was

the first whiskey label, we
believe that ever featured a

female form on the label.
Each year we collaborate with a

different female artists to
reimagine that original hedonism

woman to create the label
artwork.

The first one we won the award
for was in collaboration with

Stephanie Rue.
We picked her based on her

artwork and it turned out she
was Scottish.

And I was like, Oh my God, you
couldn't write the stuff it was

meant to be.
So that turned out perfectly.

Again, going back to what I said
at the start, the mastery and

imagination of capturing
Stephanie's process, the

attention to detail and the crap
she puts into it and the amount

of time she spent learning her
really is reflected in what we

do as compass books.
So whilst we're not in that

documentary saying, hey, look at
the mastery, look at the

imagination, it comes through
show not tell.

We've just launched the 2025
edition, which was in

collaboration with an
Argentinian artist called Sofia

Bernardi.
She had a tough act to follow,

but my God, she she absolutely
kind of nailed it.

Her artwork is incredible.
What I like is they are, you

know, different, but they speak
to each other probably by

growing through the years and
you will start to see more women

on the label and hopefully even
as drinkers of the bread.

But what I love is standing out
from the shelf.

Ryan in the video that I saw was
saying, how does it stand the

light?
I mean, the first one was with

the gold foil.
So it's really cool.

I mean, I'll put a link to
anybody that wants to see it,

but also is this woman looking
at you from the shelf?

What I liked is brought me back
to a Vienna secession kind of

style of Clint or Alphonse Muka
here in Prague, beginning of the

century.
It was very connected to the

opulence.
It's.

Hedonistic, right?
Yeah, no, yeah.

Everything you're saying I
completely agree with.

You'll have to visit us next
time you're in London.

We have the artwork displayed in
the office and the original is

breathtaking.
Hannah, our senior brand manager

who works on NPD and packaging,
he was able to take that

breathtaking original artwork
and translate it so beautifully

onto the label is like mind
blowing.

She did a great job.
When you see it on a back bar or

it invites you in, she's
powerful, but she's kind of

looking at you.
But you almost want to have a

conversation with her.
And we hope that the

conversation people have with
her will be a conversation with

the whiskey and the glass.
That's beautiful.

Let's go back to the core range
we were discussing before.

I'm a big fan of starting from.
I used to say it starts from the

liquid.
Now, I actually evolved my

thinking during this
conversation on the podcast.

I like to say it starts with an
idea.

We have a quote at Compass Box,
which I think is a Picasso

quote.
It starts with an idea and then

it comes something else.
We live by that, in that there's

this constant state of evolution
and things can start one way,

but you have to be willing to go
with the flow and see where it

takes you to.
I love it.

It reminds me of the quote by
Mike Tyson.

Everybody has a plan until they
get punched in the face.

Going to start using that one
with the team.

There was Aceo Paulo Lanzarote
in Asahi once he asked the

question to the board and he
said like, do you know which day

last year's plan, you realize it
was bullshit.

January the second it stuck with
me because I was real.

Like, OK, if he says that, then
again, I'm allowed to actually

say what I want to ask you is
how you bring this all this

flavor profile, taste profile to
life.

You were talking about this
territories.

I I remember discussing this
with Georgie Bell from the hard

cut in one of the previous
episodes about being able to

actually speak normal language
for consumers, the average

consumer, because we always fall
into the trap of the echo

chamber.
And you know, I'm lucky that my

wife is not from the industry
and many of my friends are not

from the industry whenever I
mention something and then I

look at their faces.
They look at.

Me like, what the hell are you
talking about?

And maybe they're not even
English native speakers.

For example, I love that name.
Even though you don't understand

anything about whiskey or
whatever, it's in that bottle.

You understand something.
So how do you decide?

Or how do you explain the
different expressions in a

language that is easy to
understand?

We're definitely not perfect at
this and a big focus for us

right now is how do we really
simplify to the most basic level

at key touch points.
And the key touch points for me

at the moment where we need to
win is kind of in the last three

feet like in retailers.
So we're working on that now.

I think one thing that we do
well is when you, you know, as

Ellen Gladstone said on, I had
him on the podcast I used to do

called Building Liquid, he said
like 85% of spirits marketing is

the packaging.
Because when someone goes to a

fixture and there's like 100
bottles, the only thing you

have, unless you've invested in
shelf talkers and all this kind

of stuff, the only thing you
have is your packaging.

One thing we do well is that
people often say it's like

drinking the label.
Look at Orchard House, lovely

orchard fruits.
It's green, it's light, it's

fresh, it's fruity, and it
reflects exactly what you're

going to taste in the bottle.
Same with Crimson casks, Crimson

Sherry.
The label has expected color

codes and queues.
Consumers associate with Sherry

nectarosity, again, kind of
those more kind of bourbon cues.

And nectar is a word that sounds
as if it's going to taste

delicious.
So we try and do that with the

labels.
Communications wise, it's just

thinking exactly as you say, at
the most basic level, what a

consumer is going to connect
with the most.

And that is the liquid, the
flavor, and how do we break that

down for us, That is kind of
like fruity.

If you love bourbon, you'll love
this Pete and Sherry Basic.

Hook them and then you can start
to tell them your stories.

The Compass Box.
It's a blessing and a curse in

that we have so many incredible
stories.

The compass box rabbit hole goes
very deep.

That's why loyalty to Compass
Box is strong.

We have a recipe wheel for every
single whiskey we've made

available to download on our
website, and we're not allowed

to tell people the exact age of
all the whiskey's in a blend,

but we believe in transparency.
If you count the rings on the

recipe wheel, it will tell you
the age of every single

component part because we don't
have anything to hide.

And it's that level of detail
that keeps people with compass

box.
It has to be massively

oversimplified at that top of
funnel in order to get people

in, and then hopefully we can
move them along and get them to

be lifelong friends of the
brand.

Of that I used not to be a
whiskey drinker, so I entered

and from side door.
In your core range, for example,

would you say that there is a
way that consumer usually

navigate if they are starting
drinking or it doesn't matter

because anybody has their own
paste buds and palate?

Yeah, I mean you are a whiskey
drinker and know the type of

whiskey flavour profile that
might interest you.

If you're fresh to Compass Box.
The way we talk about it is kind

of Orchard House is the entry
point into Compass Box.

It is the truest expression of
the brand because over 86% of

the whiskeys in that bottle are
whiskeys that we have had from

you make spirit and put into our
own custom casks.

As time goes on, as our stock
matures, that will get to almost

100%.
Then we would explore the

influence oak has on whiskey.
If you take Orchard House and

you know in part it was much
more of that cast character,

you'd get to Nectarosity.
If you want to explore Pete, you

would explore Pete Monster.
In terms of this isn't consumer

language, but trading up or
completing a Scotch journey.

You can't really complete a
Scotch journey without

experiencing Sherry.
And that's where it would take

you to kind of Crimson casks,
which is the pinnacle of the

core collection.
Very interesting.

When we map it out visually, it
very cleverly is shaped like a

compass.
Really.

Really.
Let's talk about the last bit,

communication.
I think that's the marketing

heaven of that journey.
There is always this thing that

small brands or challenger
brands or however we want to

call them, like brands that used
to be small.

At some point in a way, like the
billboards and ad campaigns, it

becomes a bit like, OK, you're
making, you know, friends with

the devil.
You know that it's something I

will never be on the Billboard.
You'll never see my brand on a

billboard and I will never do
ATL and this kind of things.

You know that I heard throughout
my journey in drinks what I

loved about your campaign, the
Billboard campaign was really

this, you know it, it looks so
natural to me.

It didn't feel like what the
hell is Rachel and the team

doing with a billboard campaign
on a brand that doesn't speak

billboard?
No, this is my pragmatic

approach to brand building.
Can you navigate us through that

journey to and how you brought
it to life?

Yeah, firstly we did wild
posting as much more affordable

way of doing out of home
activity.

And my biggest advice, don't
just do a billboard or while

posting and expect it to move
the needle in isolation.

So we did, while posting in a
bunch of cities across Europe, a

few U.S. cities and London.
The key thing was it was always

attached to other activities,
whether there was a whiskey

festival on, and we knew that
there was going to be a massive

influx of whiskey lovers in
town, menu takeovers in multiple

bars.
When we did it in London, we had

an takeover.
We had a bunch of bars in London

who had special cocktails on the
menu.

We also had sampling happening.
We had all activations happening

at the same time.
So there was all this 360

activities supported by out of
home activity.

We got the initial results from
that period.

We grew brand awareness in the
UK by about 6% in that period

when the category awareness only
went up 1%.

I would never say that is down
to our posting.

I would say it was down to us
having this cohesive plan that

took into account all of the
different touch points where

consumers might be.
We were pretty targeted posting

in Australia in February.
It was linked to heaps of

activity.
We were able to target billboard

space within 25 meters of
accounts where we had activity.

It's linking these things
together.

It's never going to as a brand
of our size who is not that well

known, you're never going to win
just by clustering billboards

everywhere.
But if you link it into a lot of

other key activity that's having
at the time, then the whole

thing move the needle a little
bit.

I really like the fact that, you
know, I'm a big geography fan,

as everybody probably known by
now, but approaching cities and

conquering different
neighborhoods.

Did you call it wild posting?
Yes, yes, I I like that I've

never heard it before.
This wild posting is

interesting, especially when you
manage to have a bigger presence

into a certain neighborhood now
where you get some listing and

then make yourself relevant for
that neighborhood.

Those type of people that go to
those type of bars, we look for

the brand.
And again, it's one of these

things, I mean, I heard it on
some podcasts.

I don't remember what it was
back in the days, ATL.

As such, you're getting the
outcome 10 years down the line.

It's how you judge the KPIs of
activities you do.

Now, the outcome could be PR
coverage and exposure.

So it's got nothing to do with
the brand tracker.

It's more to do with being
relevant.

And then maybe you are in some
trade magazines and with those

trade magazine you bring them to
an outlet and then that helps

you secure a new listing.
Or I'm always skeptical on

attribution.
You don't like this kind of like

crazy attribution.
Chris Walker that I'm going to

have soon on on the podcast.
This calls it the attribution

mirage.
We tend to think certain things

must be KPI Ed a certain way,
but ultimately it's OK, but why

are we doing certain thing and
it could be a totally different

way.
So for me, that was interesting,

funny enough.
Brand building takes time to win

in the short term and those
things are always going to be

more tactical.
But if you want to build a

brand, I love you always say,
and I wholeheartedly agree that

like there is no overnight
success in drinks.

Like suddenly if it seems like,
Oh my God, wow, this brand is

suddenly everywhere and they
just got bought for like, you

know, half a billion dollars.
It's like actually, if you look

back, there's like 10/15/20
years of that like hard graph

building from the bottom up to
get that overnight success and

that these brand building things
take time to take effect, but

you've just got to kind of stick
at it Internally within my team,

we talk about challenge a brand
energy.

We always want to have this
energy to do things quickly.

Differently in difference is our
number one fear.

So we always say like, I would
rather we try something and

people are like Marmite, we hate
it, we love it and have an

extreme reaction versus doing
something and people being like

whatever.
And we always say like, could

another brand do this in this
way?

And if the answer is yes, we
don't do it.

Internally it's about challenger
brand energy, but externally

it's about big brand energy
taking over a city and doing

multiple activities across loads
of different touch points for

those people.
Suddenly it's like, oh, this

brand, I've seen this brand
everywhere the past few weeks

and it makes you seem like a
much bigger brand.

That is a shortcut being front
of mind.

And just wanted to add one other
thing that we did in case

anyone's considering doing
something similar is that when

we had these activities
happening in different cities,

we captured content of
everything that really showed

the place.
So you know, if it was Berlin,

we created content around the
while posting in Berlin that

showed landmarks, showed you
know, the stitch shops, the bar

takeovers, etcetera.
And then we used that content to

Geo target people in that
market.

And we found that the content
that we put paid spend behind

that is localized and shows
people.

So people in Germany are seeing
their own city reflected back at

them with our brand that
performs way better than the

kind of general global brand
content that they see.

And it's because they see, oh,
this brand is a brand for me.

It's in my market.
That's so beautiful.

Thanks for sharing.
It's fantastic.

I mean, it's a, it's an, it's
one of those things that when

you, when you hear it is like,
of course, but then if you don't

do it, you don't realize it.
The power of these things by

doing small experiments in
different cities gives this

localized global reach making a
lot of sense.

But I wanted to ask you about
that because I remember the post

that you wrote.
If any other whiskey brand can

do this, we move on.
I really love because we tend to

think and talk about this, is it
ownable by a brand?

And many brands are
unfortunately copycatting each

other.
If you are a certain type of

brand more into luxurious
liquids, you know, like it

doesn't make sense to the wild
Post thing in, you know, in

Kreutzberg, in, in Berlin, it
wouldn't make any sense.

It's always how to make it
ownable.

So it makes sense for the
industry down to you know, the

average consumer or the shopper
that will buy 1 bottle one day,

one year and so on.
And there's a lot of discussions

recently and finally people are
talking about creating demands.

You are actually out there for
the 95% not in buying mode when

you do these campaigns, you're
not talking about the 5%.

If the 5% is actively looking,
you can speak to them, that's

fine.
In the end is this kind of

solutions where I'm talking to
people and I know that they will

never buy those kind of brands,
but then maybe they heard this

from me two years ago at my
birthday party or whatever.

And then when they are in this
model, oh, I want to buy a

bottle of whiskey for whoever,
whether it's a celebration or a

party or or anything.
That's when it pops in their

head and they may not even
realize it and goes back to this

crazy craving for attribution
that we measure what we can

rather than what we should
measure.

And it becomes a retrofitting
exercise rather than OK, I've

got this and it doesn't matter
if I cannot track it.

I feel, and the gut feel tells
me this is going to work.

Even if you can't prove it to
management, at some point you

know you're going the right way
and maybe a metric would prove

it the PDF as you were saving.
We're saving PDFs start lives.

I love that.
Let's wrap it up here.

I think it's a nice way to close
this episode.

We could go on forever and
hopefully sooner rather than

later I can come to visit you
because I definitely want to let

our listeners know how to find
you if they want to get in touch

with you.
Yeah, you can find on LinkedIn

Rachel Von Jones and Instagram
at RVJ Drinks.

And of course, check out Compass
Books as well.

Fantastic.
So thanks so much, Rachel.

It was a great pleasure.
Speak soon.

Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening to the

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