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This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers and beyond) who want more flexibility while still doing work they love. As a freelance fashion designer, you can build your fashion career on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk). Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want. Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)
Heidi [00:00:01]:
I recorded this episode in March 2024, and as of this year, it has become my personal opinion that 3 d fashion design software is required knowledge in the industry. Whether you're a designer, a TD, a PD, a pattern maker, or whatever your role, this is really, really essential knowledge to have. Now, yes, you can get away without it, but these skills give you a huge leg up in our industry. But since I'm not a 3 d expert, I brought on Sylvia Smusmick. I'm apologies for probably very much butchering your Italian last name, which even though you said it in the interview, I'm struggling to pronounce it correctly. Silvia is a 3 d fashion technology expert who's worked with fashion powerhouses like Armani, Max Mara Fashion Group, VF Corporation, and more. And she comes on today to share her thoughts about 3 d in the fashion industry. In our conversation, Sylvia and I talk about how fashion designers and TD's and PD's and power makers and more, whether you're freelance or in house, what the best ways are to learn 3 d software, some of the tricky nuances to look out for that fashion schools are not teaching, and which softwares are the best out there as well as what is in the most demand.
Heidi [00:01:04]:
No matter your role, 3 d is a huge asset to the design development process. And if you're not keeping up with it, you may slowly be falling behind. Let's get to it. We're gonna nerd out on so much 3 d. Talk like where where would you even start this conversation? I guess, let's, you had a really interesting journey to learning 3 d. Why don't you give everybody a little backstory about your pretty immersive dive into all of this in the fashion industry?
Sywia [00:01:38]:
So I started my journey in fashion industry as a seamstress. Then I learned pattern making, which was already a great journey into into technical skills. But then one day, I discovered 3 d and it was it was by by case because I was just buying, 2 d cut software. So to be able to, to serve my clients better because I was freelancer for a long time. And the same company was selling 3 d software too. So just they just gave me a demo of of the 3 d one and it I was like, wow. It's a game changer. It's it's it's something amazing.
Sywia [00:02:23]:
And, then I started to to check on this because at that time, this software was really expensive. We were talking about, like, 10 k for a license
Heidi [00:02:33]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:02:34]:
Which was a lot for freelancer, especially considering that fashion industry wasn't really prepared for that at that time. So you probably won't be able to to take your money back from this. Yeah.
Heidi [00:02:45]:
It
Sywia [00:02:45]:
was, it was much more for playing than for, for the actual use.
Heidi [00:02:51]:
What time? Like, when was this about? What year?
Sywia [00:02:55]:
Oh, I think it was around 2,014. Okay. Gotcha. If I get that wrong, 2014, 2015. So so, yeah, almost 10 years ago. And it was just the beginning, for the fashion companies started a little bit to check on this, but it was mostly used for, gaming companies because they have to create garments for, for games. And, they use this kind of software because, because of fabric simulation. Something each which is really difficult to achieve in, in any different way.
Sywia [00:03:36]:
So the garments in games are often like, you know, they are they call it rigging. So basically, they take skeleton of the of the avatar, and they are moving together with skeleton. But if you have skirt, it's it's pretty difficult. It doesn't look real. So what that's, that's why those software started to exist and were developed at first and the first one was Marvelous Designer that probably some some of people know because it it still exists And from Marvel's designer was born claw three d, which is now widely used in industry. And it's the same company that, that created both. And, I I had always, 3 d somewhere on the back of my hat. I I was trying to find a way to use it because for example, Clow was, was accessible, for freelancers because it it has cost like $50 a month, something like this.
Sywia [00:04:37]:
So so the license can be used for by small freelancers. And then I had a client from Australia. I am based in Italy and they wanted to develop collection of of made in Italy garments but we had only 5 months before they will came to Italy and want to see the samples and want to photo shoot those samples in some Italian cities. So I was like, okay, 5 months to deliver up collection is already very tight. Mhmm. Then the sketches they provided weren't really technical sketches. So it was like back and forth to understand what they really meant.
Heidi [00:05:20]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:05:21]:
By, by those sketches. And then, you know, stitching the garments, you can show them in video call, but it's not the same thing. You should to send them to Australia and then get feedback and have them back to adjust the garments and then, you know, have another loop of feedback in 5 months. It was it was impossible. Mhmm. So I said, okay, let's give a try to free. Why not? And I started with patterns and the first iterations were entirely using 3 d. So they were able to see the garment and tell me, no.
Sywia [00:05:56]:
This is completely not what we were thinking about. And we had this feedback in real time because in 3 d, you can change the pattern in real time during the call and show them how the garment will look like if it's longer, wider with, with another type of color or with another type of sleeve. Mhmm. And it really worked because when they arrived to Italy to see the actual physical samples, they were exactly like they wanted. And it was it was a huge win. And it shows how freelancers can use this, this kind of software because in big fashion companies, so now I am working for Timberland. It is a little bit different because, of course, we have our pipeline. We have a lot of people that are working using this software because designers use it in different way, technical developers in different way, product developers in different ways.
Sywia [00:06:53]:
So it's it's a long workflow. While in kind of, in case of freelancers, they do all of that often by themselves. Mhmm. So, yeah, I I would say that, it's a game changer for freelancer, especially the ones that work with clients which are abroad. Because if you have your client close by, you can go to them with this physical sample and, you know, check everything together. But if you work if you are based in US and you have clients from Europe, it's it's hardly possible. Yeah.
Heidi [00:07:32]:
So do you I mean, I know you took if I'm not mistaken, you took an entire year off of your career and, like, dove really deep into learning 3 d, and you actually went to, like, a gaming school, no, or or gaming programs. Talk to us a little I mean, where I wanna go with this whole question is, like, a lot of people come to me right now and they're like, well, where do I learn? And I'm like, well, you know, each software has their own tutorial videos on YouTube and stuff, and I know there's some things on Udemy or some of these other platforms. And I know some of the learning curve on some of the software is really, really steep. They're they're hard to learn. So talk to us a little bit about your journey learning and then, like, what advice would you give to someone out there who's, like, maybe dabbling with it a little bit and they wanna get in a little bit deeper and they wanna learn a little bit more. Like, what would you advise on that level?
Sywia [00:08:32]:
CGI school was a kind of a game changer for me, for my skills because I had knowledge from fashion industry, quite a deep one. And, to learn claw or similar tools, it is enough. Like, it it's not an easy software but if you have knowledge from fashion industry, you already work in fashion industry, it's something that is is really easy to learn because you are probably familiar with, CAD software so you know how patterns are made, You know what the excel files are. You know how to stitch the garment. So it is basically stitching in digital. I am often saying that I am digital seamstress. But if you want to learn how to move this assets outside from claw because I don't know. You want to create virtual cut works.
Sywia [00:09:27]:
You want to put your meshes into virtual reality. You want to create animations, videos, whatever, then it's another patch and it doesn't have anything to do with session. I was trying to, like, for example, if you want to create your own 3 d dreams because you have some particular buttons or you have some, some particle dreams you want to create, it is not connected to fashion industry at that point. It's 3 d modeling which is completely different skills. And you want you want to be able to start, like, you can learn, for example, Blender. And there's a lot of, tutorials about Blender in both Udemy and YouTube, and they are free or they have cost, like, $20, $50. But for me, personally, what I appreciated during, CGI school was that, the teachers were people coming from gaming industry. They had huge experience and for me having an assignment like, weekly weekly assignment and then check it on live session with your mentor was a huge added value because when you learn just from, from online resources, so you watch the videos, sometimes you find yourself like, okay, I did everything I was supposed to do, but it still doesn't work.
Sywia [00:11:00]:
There is some kind of back there.
Heidi [00:11:02]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:11:03]:
And till you don't have enough deep knowledge about 3 d, you are not able to understand what you are doing wrong. If you have this weekly session with your teacher, so you show them the mesh and they say, oh, it's so simple to solve. You just forgot about, I don't know, clicking this or doing this. Box. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And you won't ever be able to do it by yourself because software like Blender or in my case Maya because I am using Maya which is which is another 3 d 3 d tool for, modeling.
Sywia [00:11:36]:
They are so big and so complicated that when you open them for the first time, it's like no way. I am not able to use it at any way. Then once you once you do the course I I made was 1 year. It started from fundamentals which were 3 months and then another another, 2 intermediate and advanced, another 3 months, patches. But the fundamentals one was something that, you know, you open your mind because you start to understand what 3 d is. And it is not simulated garment in claw because today, when I know how the well done 3 d mesh should look like, When I look at the meshes that are coming from claw for me is like, why why they are doing them in this way? Like, they are super huge. Sometimes, in Timberland, we have, files that are, like, 500 megabytes. Oh, my gosh.
Sywia [00:12:40]:
Something that, you know. Yeah. We do because if you have outerwear if that have several layers and a lot of dreams and you know a lot of simulation on top of that, They can be very very big and this is something that make your computer work very slow unless you don't have something like, you know, Pixar Pixar computer. Yeah. And then and then you are not able to work on that because it take ages every time when you have to move something. While if you start your 3 d garment creation in the correct way, having in mind that for example, mesh shouldn't have more than 500,000 polygons or whatever. You know, from the beginning how you have to optimize this mesh. And this is the best learning I took from CGI school.
Sywia [00:13:35]:
And I see that a lot of, 3 d fashion designers really don't care about optimization. And then they found themselves with files that take 1 week to be able to finish it. Especially if they really work on the whole outfits or outerwear or any kind of garments that are really complicated. In Timberland sometimes we have jackets that have 50 pieces.
Heidi [00:14:02]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:14:04]:
So it's a lot of, a lot of stitching and a lot of working on. And with optimization, we are able to create the jacket in one day. And it simulates and it works well. Before I learned how to do that, sometimes the outfit took 1 week. And it's too much and that makes 3 d too expensive for fashion companies. Because if you work one week
Heidi [00:14:29]:
Yeah. You don't waste on a time.
Sywia [00:14:31]:
For the week of work. Exactly. So you want money for that week of work. And it's taking And then you become too expensive for.
Heidi [00:14:40]:
And then they're, like, 3 d is too expensive. We'll just go back to the way we we're we're comfortable the way we used to do it with physical samples. So it it takes a week. Is that really just because of the time to, like, render or I don't even know if that's the right term, but, like, every edit you're sitting there waiting for that spinning wheel to process. You're just there's so much time waiting?
Sywia [00:15:00]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Unless unless you really don't have very fast computer with great graphic card, it really can take a lot. I know that some of, of the girls that are taking part of, of your courses are working in, with intimates. Uh-huh. And it already takes a lot of time because they have a lot of small pieces that have to be done in certain way. But then if you have the garment which is even more complicated, it really can take ages.
Heidi [00:15:34]:
Yeah. Like intimates versus outerwear is obviously a lot fewer components. But then, for example, with, with intimates, you have textures that have to be
Sywia [00:15:44]:
prepared in certain way because you have laces and laces are quite tricky to to do. And it's it's another skill that, you have to learn, to be able to create garments that, look like the real ones.
Heidi [00:15:58]:
Yeah. Okay. So you
Sywia [00:16:00]:
And so it's it's a lot of things to learn there, but it's amazing. I mean, it's it's super fun.
Heidi [00:16:07]:
Yeah. So if I'm a fashion designer and I wanna start implementing, I'm a freelancer and I wanna start implementing CLO and or not CLO, 3 d. Excuse me. And I am I'm doing this on my own. I don't have an employer that's paying for me to learn. I don't I can't afford a Pixar computer. I mean, I imagine a lot of employers can't even afford Pixar Computers. What like, where would you suggest I start and what are the things that I wanna look out for? Because I wouldn't have even considered that I would need to focus so much on learning how to really optimize.
Heidi [00:16:48]:
Otherwise, my files are gonna take 5, 10 times as long to build and are ultimately gonna be cost prohibitive, and I'm just gonna wind up back where I used to be. So, like, what are what are besides optimization, What are some of the things I might wanna think about? And and how would you go about learning that? Maybe it is taking an online gaming CGI course or something. I don't know. What what do you suggest?
Sywia [00:17:11]:
So I would suggest to have the basics from 3 d. Like, the the real real basics. What is 3 d mesh? What is, what are polygons? How to optimize the the simple mesh. So the the optimization basically starts from having less polygons possible.
Heidi [00:17:31]:
Okay.
Sywia [00:17:32]:
But unless you don't understand what polygons are and what they are doing, it's difficult to, you know, to implement it into your workflow. But anyway, you have the biggest you need to have the biggest grid possible if we want to talk about claw. So you want to have it 20 for most of pieces instead of having it 5 or 3. You need 5 or 3 just for for something which is, which is really, really small. Then if we talk about the textures, we really don't need 8 k textures. So they're really huge ones. For most of pieces, it's enough to have them 2 k. If you have a button, it can be even 500 or 1 k, not more than this.
Sywia [00:18:21]:
Optimization starts from that because if you have a lot of textures in your garment and you probably have, so you have to understand that all that textures have to be, have have to show on the on your screen. So it takes, it takes resources from your computer. Mhmm. Then, there is a kind of, maps which are called displacement maps that are giving a actual texture like 3 d texture to the garment. No? Like, to to the to the fabric. And there are 2 types of textures that I do doing the this. They are called normal maps and displacement maps. Use the normal ones which requires much mark much less computing than the displacement ones.
Sywia [00:19:12]:
There is there is a lot of small things but you learn them only if you have at least basics about 3 d. So about CGI. And then you, of course, need all your skills from fashion industry. So how garment is created, how patterns look like to be able to stitch correctly the garment itself. If you are a technical developer, you learn sooner or later how to adjust the pattern in real life using 3 d. And the best way to do that is to start with the same pattern stitched in real life with 1 needle machine and on your mannequin and have it digitally on the same kind of mannequin. If you if you use Algon on ones, it's super easy because they have physical and digital the same. But if you have the normal mannequin, you just take your measurements and create the avatar in in your 3 d software that has the same measurements.
Sywia [00:20:14]:
And you are already able to look at both of them. And if you're habituated with physical, you see looking at your mannequin. Okay. I have to make it shorter or longer in order to adjust the feet. And you see how it look like in 3 d. And you you do the same adjustment in 3 d. In this way, after few tries, you will be able to understand immediately looking at 3 d. How I have to adjust my pattern in the way that then physical garment will will look like in the correct way.
Sywia [00:20:52]:
And this pattern that you have in your 3 d software, you can print it and cut it and stitch the garment. I mean, it's it's the DXF pattern that every every single 2 d cat is able to recognize. Mhmm. In case of product developers, there is a lot of tools and, most of 3 d fashion cats provide also this, this kind of collaboration tools. So you can give the link to your clients and they can see the 3 d garment that they can route, they can leave the comments. And it's the fastest way instead of, you know, writing them down. You have your communication with the client somehow offline. So you don't have to find the right moment that both of you have time and can check on this.
Sywia [00:21:42]:
You send them the link, they look at the garment, they can see the pattern, they can see the sketches. They can see everything which is related to the garment itself. Mhmm. And they leave you the comment. I want it in different way. I want to try it in different color ways. I I want to change the fabric to see how this fabric will look like with this garment. And then you turn on your computer, watch at the comments, and adjust the garment.
Heidi [00:22:06]:
Yeah.
Sywia [00:22:07]:
It's it's just my much faster.
Heidi [00:22:09]:
Yeah. Okay. So those are a lot of really great tips to think out. Think about, like, what's the resolution of the trims? Like, we don't need these really high resolutions because each of those little components and the textures, right, they all add up in the the mesh and the polygons and all that. Like, where would you is it is it just kind of like a wild west in learning this? Like, I'm just gonna go out and I'm just gonna start, like, watching YouTube videos and playing around and, like you said, having the garment on the real life mannequin next to the garment on the 3 d mannequin and and learning and, like, just kind of digging in on your own or are there, and I think you and I have had some chats on LinkedIn about this a little bit, but, like, are there great programs out there to really learn some of these nuances in 3 d specific to fashion or are you finding it still like just DIY, you know, and and maybe become part of connect with some people and you know becomes part of some type of community. Maybe that's a structured community. Maybe it's not just like finding friends on LinkedIn and chatting and learning and finding tips from other people that are doing 3 d, like, what it what is it looking like out there from an educational realm?
Sywia [00:23:29]:
So I don't know every every single fashion courses that are unlabeled in, in the world, of course. But honestly, I still haven't haven't find anything that I would say, okay, if it was available 5 years ago, I would go for this. I still didn't find anything like this because a lot of fashion schools are trying to prepare, young people to working with luxury because this is probably the the dream of everyone who is studying fashion design. Everyone want to work for Louis Vuitton, for Chanel, for Dior, for whatever. Then unfortunately, almost no one is getting there but, it's another it's another discussion. And they are thinking about web free and about metaverses which really makes sense for this fashion brands because they are creating awareness around their products to people that can be their clients in next 15 years. Mhmm. But for normal fashion brands like the one I am working for, today, it really does not make much sense or better.
Sywia [00:24:47]:
It would but it's enough high investment and very long term one that the standard fashion brand can't afford it or don't want to afford it. Mhmm. So what today fashion schools are providing is to putting this measures in metaverses and things like this. But this is not what really fashion companies needs.
Heidi [00:25:11]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:25:12]:
We just need garments that then can be produced and we need people that are able to use free pigments in order to understand if the physical garment will fit. If we want to use this colorway or another one. We want people that are able to create the meshes that we can use in our ecommerce that are able to create renders that look like the real garment. This is what we really need. Mhmm. And there are now fashion schools that are that are teaching that because or they are teaching something very extreme, which is something that we still don't need or they teach the basics, but the basics that don't have anything in common with 3 d. So to answering your question, short, I can't find anything that can can lead really teach you. I make CGI school and if someone can afford it because they are quite expensive ones, It's it's probably the best way to do, but you have to somehow translate the skills into what you really need.
Heidi [00:26:23]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:26:23]:
And this is probably why there is yeah. It's a challenge, and that's that's probably the reason why you can't find that much people that have, have the skills because it takes time. Mhmm. It takes a lot of money. And, you you have to be really passionate about that.
Heidi [00:26:45]:
Yeah. Okay. So the learning hurdle is challenging, and there's not a ton of great options out there. Outside of that, what are your thoughts on software? Because there's a lot of software options and, it can very quickly become a little bit over overwhelming of, like, which software should I learn? How like, sometimes I need to learn CLO and this other like, I don't even know. I'm I don't do 3 d. I don't know 3 d. But, like, what software should I learn? Which software you know, the the big question, which one's the best? Which one's the most in demand? Which ones do brands want the most? And I I think those are always really hard questions to answer. But, like, you're a quite knowledgeable expert in this space.
Heidi [00:27:35]:
And so if I come to you and I'm like, Sylvia, what do you recommend that I do? Like, I wanna get started. I'm gonna kinda have to learn on my own, like, which 1, 2, or maybe 3 software should I start learning and investing in to add to my skill set, whether that's for freelance or for full time jobs?
Sywia [00:28:02]:
So if you want to keep it, so if we talk about 3 d software, I would recommend honestly 2 of them for 2 different reasons. K. Most of fashion brands are looking for cloth three d skills because probably cloth three d is widely used, software in, in fashion. But then if you learn this teacher, there are companies like, for example, mine, which is using this teacher and it's very high end hard to find people that are using this software. That means that it's much easier to take job because if you already have this skill you are much ahead of thousands of people that are just using cloth. And it happened it happened to us that, we were not able to find really people that are using this teacher in a enough high level that we needed it. Even if we were looking for contractors, for example. Okay.
Sywia [00:29:06]:
It's really hard hard to find ones that are able to use it. But then, of course, if you are able to use just this feature, your market is much smaller because there are just big fashion companies that are using this software. As the second software, I would say substance package, Adobe Substance package. Okay. Which is the most widely used one for the texturing. It's a great one because if you already use Photoshop it's it's pretty similar just in 3 d but but, you know, the basics are quite similar. So if you know how to use Photoshop, it should be quite easy to you to understand how to use Substance Painter. And the third one is Blender because it's free.
Sywia [00:30:00]:
And having at least, you know, basics in Blender, basics in 3 d modeling to be able to create your own 3 d trim or to be able to export this measures from claw and optimize them, a little bit like mesh wise. Okay. So I would say this, these three things. The first one claw or vestiges or even better. Both of them k. Then substance for texturing. Then the easiest one is, is substance alchemist that I think today it has different way. I'm sorry, but I am, let me let me check.
Sywia [00:30:40]:
I will tell you which is the name. This is the easiest one because it is creating using artificial intelligence. You can send the photo of, of the texture of the fabric and it it's able to create you the texture, that you can use in, in your 3 d software in quite seamless way.
Heidi [00:31:01]:
Okay.
Sywia [00:31:01]:
Of course, there is a lot of limitations around that, but it's really easy to use. Very, there is no learning curve then. They're like
Heidi [00:31:11]:
So I go. Sorry. Go ahead.
Sywia [00:31:15]:
Then, the second a little bit more difficult to use from substance package is, substance painter which is great if you already have your 3 d garment and, you know, the fabric has a lot of color variations and in textures that you have on 3 d, often you don't have them, because they have to be repetitive textures so they they look a little bit flat. In painter, you can add this variations so your garment looks much more real. And the third one is substance designer which is really complicated one. It's amazing if you want to create like beautiful textures made from scratch. So not using the scan of the fabric but you can create beautiful embroideries or things like this or knitwear. But it's very complicated. This one, this one is let's say, advanced advanced thing. And, if you have time, if you want to learn it, it's amazing.
Sywia [00:32:23]:
It it there is endless possibilities using this one, but, of course, this is not for for someone that starts. Okay. And as for Blender basics, what is 3 d mesh, how to optimize it, how to make renders externally, how to, you know, move something, how to sculpt a little bit because sometimes in simulations it takes ages to adjust this garment for this a little bit. You just move it to the blender and you can sculpt it in few minutes and you solved your issue.
Heidi [00:32:56]:
Okay.
Sywia [00:32:57]:
So this this package of free, software, I believe it's, it's the best way to start. Then you have millions of others, but you will use them if you have some some particular need. For sure not, not for the beginning.
Heidi [00:33:15]:
Okay. So let me recap here to make sure I understood. So Adobe Substance within that, we've got Alchemist, which I think you pretty sure is the one that's AI. You can just yeah. You can check that scan Exactly. And then AI will generate a 3 d texture for you there. I I'm assuming at that point I can export it in some format and bring that into CLO or v stitcher to apply it to my garment.
Sywia [00:33:41]:
Yes.
Heidi [00:33:42]:
And then there's painter and then what? Sorry. What was the third one In substance? The designer. The designer, which gets a little bit more complicated. But maybe if I even just know the alchemist, I can get those textures, and that one's pretty easy. No learning curve. Then I've got Blender where I am modeling maybe these 3 d components and trims like buttons or zipper pulls or buckles, that type of thing. And then I can again export that and bring that into Clow or Vistitcher. And clo and vstitcher are my two options.
Heidi [00:34:17]:
I can choose to learn 1 or the other or both for doing the patterns putting together the 3 d models and renders on the mannequins on the avatar and ultimately potentially creating these catwalk simulations or I'm I'm I'm probably using some words wrong here. But No worries. Is that kind of how everything ties together?
Sywia [00:34:43]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. The the the latest name of, substance alchemist is substance sampler. So it was called alchemist when I start exactly. When I started to use it, it was called alchemist then they rebranded it. So you have substance sampler which is the easiest one, where you can, with AI, create your textures just from photo of the fabric you have. Then you have substance painter where you have import your 3 d garment from cloth 3 d, for example, and add variations on the texture making your garment look much more real.
Heidi [00:35:24]:
Okay.
Sywia [00:35:24]:
Then you have substance designer where you can create amazing embroideries, knitwear or another repetitive textures from scratch. But this one is really complicated. Okay. And those 3 are all taking a part of Adobe Substance package that cost I think around $30 a month. And for me, for texturing, it's it's the best choice ever. You won't you won't find anything better than this.
Heidi [00:35:59]:
Okay. Okay. And as far as Clove versus V Stitcher, I understand that Clove is much more widely adopted in the industry, but there's also more designers that know it versus v stitcher You could be a bigger fish, but in a smaller pond In general, though, do do those 2 softwares essentially solve the same problems ish and and do the same things?
Sywia [00:36:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. More or less. Yes. There is, there are some differences between them, but, basically, yes. They are they are doing the same things.
Heidi [00:36:36]:
Okay. And what am I I mean and this is a really loaded question because every person has a different learning curve in terms of how much time they have to dedicate, you know, how maybe adept they are at just catching on to technical things and new software. I I mean, I taught illustrator for many years, and I've seen people literally power through and, like, go from 0 to a 100 in, like, a week. Like, just dive in super deep and then I see people really kind of still struggle after 6 months of continually working in it. It's just sometimes the way our brains are wired. But I I went through closed training. I've watched their their maybe 6 or 7 hours worth of videos. They've got a course and stuff, and I've I've gone through it.
Heidi [00:37:24]:
And it is definitely there's a learning curve for sure. I think I'm pretty savvy technically speaking. What do you say and I've heard some estimates from other people, like, in general, what do you say is is gonna be a fair expectation for someone to, like, get over the initial hump of learning some of these softwares? Like, am I gonna sit down and learn it in a week and feel pretty decent?
Sywia [00:37:51]:
I think if someone if someone has enough time to dedicate for that, like, if you want to, open it once a week for 1 hour, it will probably take ages to learn. Mhmm. Because this kind of software you learn by doing. Mhmm. So if you will have 1 week where you really can spend 5, 6 hours a day to work on this, I would say that after 1 week you should be able to create some simple garments and then, you know, once you try again and and, maybe after 2 weeks you will be able to change the patterns better to create something more complicated Mhmm. Because you are discovering learning also. I would say that in fashion in general, there is no one way, the right way to do the things. Everyone has his own or her own methods to do the things, to change patterns.
Sywia [00:38:49]:
Like, the pattern have to fit well, but have you move these points on the on CAD really doesn't matter that much. I mean, there there are some rules, but unless you are inside the rules, if you move it to the right or move it to the rest, it's it's the same thing. Yeah. If the outcome is, is the same. So it's the it's the same thing here.
Heidi [00:39:13]:
Okay.
Sywia [00:39:13]:
There are there are some ways I am using the software and then I am talking with my colleagues and they do it in completely different way. Totally. But the outcome the outcome is
Heidi [00:39:23]:
the same. Yeah. Totally. Okay. So what are your thoughts on, like, if if I were just to say, is 3 d software required as a skill set from a fashion designer or product developer or technical designer these days? We are chatting in his March 19, 2024. What would you say today to that question?
Sywia [00:39:49]:
So I would say that for fashion designers, there is a limited need because what fashion designers are doing in 3 d are, basically selling in fashion companies. What means that they often use, blocks created by 3 d teams. So they have a block which is already stitched t shirt, hoodie, pant, whatever, and they change textures, they change colors, they add some, some details. So, yes, they have to be familiar with, 3 d software, but they don't have to be experts. Then we have technical designers that should be able to change the pattern and have a little bit deeper knowledge on 3 d software. And then we have product developers that again don't use 3 d software by itself. They use tools that are connected work together with 3 d apparel specialist in to to create better garment or with because for a lot of companies, there are manufacturers that are providing 3 d assets. Mhmm.
Sywia [00:41:10]:
So, yes, they need the knowledge about 3 d, but the one that should really go deeper in this is technical developer. Because they have to be able to change the patterns inside. Then we have 3 d apparel specialist that are people like me which are fully dedicated on 3 d. So we then send these assets to marketing. We send them to ecommerce. We are working together with designers, product developers, and technical developers to create much more complicated garments to provide them textures. Like, there is, you know, it's it's a new role in fashion industry.
Heidi [00:41:50]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:41:51]:
It is connected to the historical and, you know, the standard roles that freebie apparel specialist is is a new person. Mhmm. It's a it's a new part of the team that didn't exist before.
Heidi [00:42:07]:
Yeah. So you obviously work for a very big company, Timberland, and they as you get into bigger companies, you start to have more segmented roles, like people who just do this one really specific thing. Whereas in a smaller team, let's say, of 20 or or even 50 or, you know, a freelancer coming in to a smaller team like that, what you tend to see is these roles needing to be a little bit broader and have a wider range of skill. And so in in in a in a larger company, yeah, the fashion designer, the the TD, the PD, like, need some high level knowledge of how to use 3 d in relation to their specific role. But people who are filling roles that are a little bit more broad inside of a smaller company, Are you seeing that that that is becoming a much more required skill set and and bit of knowledge?
Sywia [00:43:15]:
In case of companies that are using 3 d, definitely, yes. If we take, if we take a freelancer, we need them to understand software we are using.
Heidi [00:43:25]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:43:26]:
Because I I don't send them, any more PDF with, with Techpack. I may send them 3 d 3 garment. Mhmm. Or I require from them 3 d garments stitched to to be able to work on that further. Yeah. So so, yes, definitely. We need people that have this kind of skills and, there is a lot of fashion companies that are using freely already. Yeah.
Sywia [00:43:55]:
There are.
Heidi [00:43:56]:
What are some of the, like, the brands that are not adopting it quite yet? What are some of the hurdles that they're that you're seeing? I know earlier we mentioned, okay, well, if it takes a week to create the garment because of these foundational problems, meaning your file size is too big because of the mesh and the the polygons and the textures and stuff. That obviously feels like a really big hurdle. You're like, oh, you get scarred from one bad experience. Like, we're not adopting this. I can't pay for someone to do the week a week for this. But, like, are are you seeing a lot of brands still kinda kicking back? Yes.
Sywia [00:44:33]:
But, it is, so the problem the problem, is the way, how it was implemented in big fashion companies. And it started all with COVID because before COVID, a lot of big fashion brands started, and they started Snowly. They started to onboard, you know, designers, then, predict developers, and they they were going to walking dispatch slowly and, you know, trying, getting people on board. Then COVID happened and it was, like, from tomorrow, we do everything in 3 d because we can have physical samples. And people were like, wow. I am not prepared for that. They got scared, and I believe it's normal. And there is no fault of, you know, neither of strategic teams or people that were on top of, of the company that they said, okay.
Sywia [00:45:30]:
From From tomorrow, you are going to using this because they hadn't any other choice.
Heidi [00:45:34]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:45:35]:
And this is the reason why when COVID finished, and we can have again physical samples, a lot of teams said, okay. I want physical samples. I don't want to watch at 3 d anymore. I don't want to use it because because of the bad experience.
Heidi [00:45:53]:
Oh, wow.
Sywia [00:45:54]:
We are we are now in the moment that we have to get people on board again. Like, we have to somehow started from scratch. We, of course, have the knowledge, we have the learning, we know what we need to do with 3 d, but we have a huge problems with getting people on board because they just have bad but really bad experience. And it's that
Heidi [00:46:18]:
easy. Yeah. In those, like, one and a half to 2 years of COVID forcing them into that, they still never got to the point where it felt like a good experience.
Sywia [00:46:30]:
Exactly. They they are just afraid. They are like, no. It doesn't look like real. It takes a lot of time. I can't do it because I have another tasks to finish so I can't fit it like this learning. I am not able to fit it inside my task because I have deadline tomorrow, and I am not able to use the software so I just sketch it. Yeah.
Sywia [00:46:51]:
And it will be faster because this this is what I have used to to do. And, you know, I I believe we forgot in big fashion companies about people during the implementation. We couldn't think about people for a while because it was really a massive problem for fashion companies when everything was closed.
Heidi [00:47:14]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:47:14]:
And we had to solve it immediately. There was no possibility to wait another 3 months or 6 months because otherwise, we weren't able to produce anything in the meantime. But now we are stepping back, checking again because, you know, a lot of tools that we have and I don't want to talk about claw or beseechure because this one really solve the problems. But there is a lot of another tools. And we see today even with AI, that really doesn't solve any problem. They often create even more complexity. Mhmm. So when you go to your people and tell them, okay.
Sywia [00:47:56]:
We we took this tool. We want to use it for making this or that, and they are saying, okay. But I really don't need this tool. I am solving my problems today in completely different way, and it's it's faster to solve them in this way or it's better or it's more comfortable for me.
Heidi [00:48:14]:
Mhmm.
Sywia [00:48:15]:
So you have to back to your people, understand which are the real problems they have, how they solve them today, and start from this when you are looking for, you know, technology, new software, new tool, automation of the processes because you can try to automate something which is extremely complicated. It will cost you millions in in big fashion companies. So you have to first make it simple. Yeah. Make it by hand manually. It will take much more time, but you will understand which are struggles with this new process. And just after that, you can put on top of this technology and automate the process Because at least, you know, that this is the process that works.
Heidi [00:49:01]:
Yeah. For sure. For sure. So many nuances to think about. I love, like, how deep you have gone into this world. It's really, really cool and really inspiring. For everyone listening, you know, Sylvia is definitely a 3 d apparel specialist, and I don't think everyone has to get to the depth that you are in order to use these tools effectively in their workflow as we've talked about. I'd love to end with the question I ask everybody at the end of the interview, and I'll adjust a little bit for you since you're not a freelancer.
Heidi [00:49:35]:
But what is one thing people never ask you about working in fashion that you wish they would?
Sywia [00:49:43]:
Very difficult one. No. I don't I don't know. I would I would say a lot of things about the fashion, but I think, Yeah. I I think people, and I already said that, forget that in fashion, there are people that are making things for people. Mhmm. And we too often forgot about that. Like, we are thinking about amazing design, about, you know, technical skills, about the tools, about technology.
Sywia [00:50:20]:
But we forgot about the people that have to use this technology, have to gain these skills, and have to create this design and forgot about the people that have to beg buy the garment at the end. And if we step back from this and companies are trying today to get back to your their customers because they understood that, you know, sales dropped and it is something that happened for like most of fashion companies. We have a lot of layoffs in fashion industry. And the reason is that we forgot about our customers. And it's not like, you know, years ago where there were luxury fashion brands that were saying people what they have to buy or what they have to like. Today, fashion industry is, is much more inclusive and it's much more democratic. So there are customers that are saying, I want to buy this. And if you don't understand what they want to buy, you are not able to create the product that will sell.
Heidi [00:51:23]:
Yeah.
Sywia [00:51:24]:
So I would I would say that when I talk with people about my work, they always talking about design and about sales and about numbers but quite few times happened that we they were talking about people that can be internal or or external from fashion companies. So I would say that in my work, in, in technology implementation, people are are at the first place, and technology is just after that.
Heidi [00:51:58]:
Yeah. Technology is just the tool.
Sywia [00:52:00]:
Exactly.
Heidi [00:52:01]:
Yeah. That's a great answer. Thank you for that. Where can people connect with you online and and learn more about you and and chat with you?
Sywia [00:52:10]:
I will be happy to to gain new new people to my network because I love to to network with people.
Heidi [00:52:17]:
Yeah. Where where should they find you?
Sywia [00:52:20]:
So they can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Sylvia Shunczyk, and, this is my my profile name. I don't know if we will be able to to add the link to the profile. We will add
Heidi [00:52:31]:
a link to the show notes.
Sywia [00:52:33]:
Yep. Yeah. Exactly. So LinkedIn is, is the best place to find me.
Heidi [00:52:37]:
Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on to chat, Sylvia. You and I become friends on LinkedIn over the past few months, and it's been really, really great to get to know you a little bit better.
Sywia [00:52:47]:
It was it was great to meet you in, in person somehow. We're slowly but in person finally. And I hope one day we will be able to meet in person, actually. I really appreciate what you are doing because I was freelancer for a long, long time, and I had a lot of struggles you are talking about. And probably if if one day I would get, back to freelancing, I will take your course.
Heidi [00:53:12]:
Oh, we would love to have you. Yeah. If the time ever comes, we'd love to have you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that.
Sywia [00:53:19]:
Thank you, Heidi. Have a have a great afternoon. You too.