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Mainstream mental health is flawed and I’m pulling back the curtain.
I’m Andrea Clark, a former family therapist, who walked away from the system to expose the truth. After my own journey from medication maze to holistic healing, I’m here to challenge the status quo and reveal the mental health truths most people don’t know.
”The Truth About Mental Health” is your radical roadmap to wellness. Raw stories, expert insights, breakthrough solutions – this is where traditional modalities end and real healing begins.
Andrea Clark (00:00)
What is up, sister? I am super pumped that you are on my podcast.
Jen Wernicke (00:01)
Hey!
So exciting.
Andrea Clark (00:07)
Okay, so everybody, just so you know, Jen is one of my best friends and we are, we do business together and she's in Canada, I'm in Vegas. And so this is like really fun for me to, mean, I love all the different people I have on the podcast and I learned so much from them, but to have somebody who I'm so personally close to, it's like very exciting for me. So I'm really excited to have this discussion about
just your experience with trauma and the mental health system in Canada. Like I can't wait to learn about that mental health system and the work you're doing now with holistic practices and healing and nervous system and all of the things. So I'm really excited about it. Can you before we even get into your upbringing, can you just tell people a little bit more about like being a nurse?
going from like a conventional nurse role to this holistic nurse role.
Jen Wernicke (01:06)
Yeah, like what specifically? Because there's a lot.
Andrea Clark (01:11)
Well, I think
I don't, I don't always think people know how intense being a nurse can be, like how, like how, how it can take a toll on you. Like I think it's interesting how healers or, or not that you're a healer, sorry, but like you're working in what's considered this like healing field.
and then you're trashed. It's such a disconnect to me. And I understand because even as a therapist, you're like over, you you're trashing yourself by trying to help all these people. It's completely different. Like you had a way different level of trashing yourself, but it's like, I think it's really interesting how we end up.
Jen Wernicke (01:45)
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (02:04)
harming ourselves to help others.
Jen Wernicke (02:06)
Yeah, well, mean, my experience in nursing, I think really started like the negative experience really started, you know, a lot of people, lot of nurses right now are going to tell you that it like their burnout and you know, their
the way that they looked at their career really changed in 2020 and 2021. But what's interesting about what happened to me and my story is that my decline started before that.
Andrea Clark (02:40)
Yeah, I was gonna say, because I knew you before that, and I'm like, you are already, but it's like, almost like there's this cognitive dissonance where you're trying to convince yourself because you don't wanna betray your profession, and it becomes such an identity. It was the same for me, where I was ready to be done probably, I mean, at least two, if not more, two years before I was done.
Jen Wernicke (02:56)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (03:02)
But I kept being like, but no, you're helping people and you can make your own schedule and all this stuff. And it was just like convincing myself all the time.
Jen Wernicke (03:11)
Yeah. Yeah, so I think that was like the most interesting thing. Like by the time the pandemic hit, I was already done. Like I had already kind of witnessed the holes in the system, I guess.
Andrea Clark (03:26)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (03:27)
And
although I didn't work in an environment that can like was really part of those holes, like I was an OR nurse for my entire career. And if you know anything about the OR, like we are so far removed from everything. But that doesn't mean that the culture and the way that administration is handling certain things or how you feel treated or mistreated doesn't affect you.
Andrea Clark (03:53)
Totally.
Jen Wernicke (03:54)
Right?
So there's like all of these things that happen outside the double doors of the OR that didn't directly impact me. And I will say this, like when the pandemic started, a lot of us, because we weren't operating, right? We were only doing emergent cases. There was no elective cases. Everything like...
it was like a ghost town in the OR. So a lot of my colleagues got floated, right, to help in the ICU and do a lot of things. And I was in like a unique place because I was one of three staff members that did 12 hour shifts. And so I'm very grateful to my manager that she didn't float me because mentally and emotionally, I wouldn't have been able to handle that. And let me backtrack and share with you guys why that is. So...
In 20... 2018, the very end of 2018, but the whole year of 2018, I had a very short stint working. We moved to this rural community working in a very toxic working, like a very toxic environment. And luckily I was able to get out of there. So I was like worked there for about a year and it really took a toll on me.
But then towards the end of that, when I was already feeling battered and bruised through my profession, my son got sick. navigating the medical field with a two-year-old and being told you don't have answers and all we can do is manage his symptoms was really disheartening for me.
Andrea Clark (05:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (05:20)
And
any parent who's dealt with a child who is seeing specialists or in and out of the hospital, a frequent flyer and emerge will understand just how challenging that is to witness your kid in agony and in pain, but being told, we don't know what's causing it.
and all we can do is offer you like anti-inflammatories, pain management, and steroids. And when your kid isn't even two years old and you're thinking he's going to be on steroids for the rest of his life, I was like I got to find out some other way because I didn't want that for him. And so that's really where this whole
Andrea Clark (05:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Jen Wernicke (06:05)
shift in my own values and the way that I, the way that I wanted to help people and just this whole idea of, of holistic being, because I believe it's a, it's a being, right? Really entered my life. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (06:15)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. It was the catalyst.
And then you continued doing your work and it probably felt like a cognitive dissonance at that point then. Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (06:29)
Yeah, it did.
So especially once the pandemic hit, right? Like, I was already like interested in like you and I met like in that time when my when Liam was sick, and I was already, you know, making steps towards building a business that I could do from home, right? And developing those skills, because I didn't I didn't know anything about about it. And so I was investing in myself in that form.
Andrea Clark (06:34)
Bye.
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (06:57)
And then when the pandemic hit, it was like my soul was being pulled in two. It was like, I have to do this because I don't have any other way to pay my bills. like, just, the way that people were treated from questioning and having their own belief systems and the...
the things that I would hear some colleagues say about other colleagues and all of it. Like it wasn't just external, it wasn't just from administration, it was within like the relationship within the department and I know probably a lot of people who maybe worked in healthcare and other
fields and even now I'm talking to people who are experiencing relationships being battered and bruised because of their belief systems and relationships that used to be really strong, right? And it takes, it takes, a really big emotional toll on me because I'm so empathetic and people knew that I wouldn't judge them for their beliefs so I almost like I became that person that they would come to for some support as well.
Andrea Clark (07:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (07:59)
So there's that piece.
Andrea Clark (08:01)
That's a powerful story in itself, right? That what you just shared. And I think that it's so important for people to understand that it's really okay to change your career. It is okay. It's scary, but it's okay. If you are not...
truly aligned, if your soul is aching, if you're experiencing cognitive distance every day, it is affecting your psyche on a deep level. It's affecting your body, your cells. ⁓ And I remember that time, like there was, I was worried about you. You were like depressed sometimes and like for periods of time and it was rough. It was rough. Like I knew it was taking a toll on you. I could see it happening.
Jen Wernicke (08:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (08:45)
And it's not even like I saw you every day, right? I would just talk to you. So thank you for sharing that. So let's go backwards now, because I know that there's things from your upbringing that have really contributed to this amazing program that you're launching. It will already have been launched by the time the podcast airs. So.
What's, tell us like just a snip of the program so that then we can kind of go back and see how that has contributed to this program that you've birthed.
Jen Wernicke (09:14)
Yeah, so the pro the program is a 12 week self led online course. So you get access to your own content hub and you work through the program at your own pace. I've made it very digestible because it's made for the working mom, right? The working mom who's like at the end of her rope, like she almost has she has nothing left in her tank.
Andrea Clark (09:32)
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (09:39)
And so it's, it's a four phase process where, you know, we really start by just reflecting and assessing what's actually going on, right? Like how you're feeling, how you're being affected by your day to day, how you're taking care of yourself, or if you are taking care of yourself, that sort of thing. And then we kind of move into more of the physical aspects and really
Andrea Clark (09:50)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (10:06)
The whole foundation is nervous system health and nervous system regulation. That's really the foundation of the program. But I take a mind, body, spirit, environment approach to taking you from a place where you're snapping at your family and yelling at your kids over spilt milk or zoning out, scrolling on your phone, completely disconnected in your marriage, right?
Andrea Clark (10:14)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (10:32)
And over the course of the 12 weeks, you're gonna start to experience a playfulness and a connectedness and just this whole shift in your being. And, but that we have to look at it holistically, right? Like we can't compartmentalize any of it, all needs to work together. And so first we got to start with that foundation and understanding like kind of where you're at, you know?
Andrea Clark (10:40)
you
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (10:59)
And then we take more of a physical approach. So we look at your nutrition, we discuss the role of gut health and the gut brain access and like neurotransmitters and nutrients and exercise, sleep. And then we move more into like the somatic or the spiritual piece of it, right?
you're religious or not religious, like we all have a spiritual side to how we live our lives. So we look at, you know, different practices, and I teach you different practices to release stored energy, release trapped trauma, right? ⁓ And then the final phase is really integrating everything. And so
Andrea Clark (11:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (11:43)
throughout the 12 weeks, you play around with a lot of different things, right? And I introduce you to a ton of modalities and we meet weekly for like group accountability calls and there's a community piece through a private Facebook group. And by the end, it's really about you creating your own, I call it a self-care plan, right? Where you have these tools, you have an incredible toolkit.
Andrea Clark (11:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (12:09)
that's full of amazing things that you can do to support yourself. But you're not necessarily gonna use all of them all of the time. You get to play around and through different seasons of your life, you grab hold of those different things.
Andrea Clark (12:16)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, I love this. Okay, what's it called?
Jen Wernicke (12:28)
It's called the Calm Mom Comeback.
Andrea Clark (12:30)
Ooh, I like it! Come back! That's got some punch to it. It gave me some emotional like, when you said it. So, let's talk about like the foundation of this program, like what it was birthed out of, right? And your journey leading up to, you heard the nurse part of your journey, the career part of your journey, but like,
Jen Wernicke (12:33)
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (12:57)
Let's talk about you as a person and why are you supporting moms and why are you, you know what I mean? Like, let's talk about that a little bit.
Jen Wernicke (13:05)
Yeah, so growing up I was, I grew up in a very like emotionally negligent maybe you could say home. I'm the oldest of three. I have two younger sisters. My dad was an alcoholic and ended up dying. He died by suicide when I was 12. And my mom
owned her own business. She was a hairdresser and she had to work really hard. Even when my dad was around, he wasn't reliable, right? If any of you grew up with a father with any sort of substance abuse, like he could not be relied on, right? Financially or physically or any of it, right? Yeah, and he was abusive. I physically
Andrea Clark (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
I can relate.
Jen Wernicke (13:48)
mentally abusive towards my mom, not towards me or my sisters. And so I grew up witnessing that and I became a nurse because I was told growing up like,
you need a good career, right? Like something with pension and benefits and I grew up in a very small town, 600 people, right? So the choices were nurse, teacher or banker. That's kind of what got drilled into my head. And so out of high school, I was like a badass. And I also had no self-esteem. I did not think I was smart enough to go to college.
Andrea Clark (14:13)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Jen Wernicke (14:28)
And so I kind of like drifted for a while and then about a year, a little over a year out of high school, I was like, my gosh, like I can't wait for the rest of my life and I'm sure as hell not going to be a receptionist. Right? Those are like... I was! I was a receptionist at a gym for quite a while actually and I even did it through university.
Andrea Clark (14:44)
imagine you as a receptionist?
Jen Wernicke (14:52)
But so I started, have this real in my home, in my the city that I live in, we have this really great organization where young adults can go and like take aptitude tests and like talk to like kind of a, I don't know if they would be considered career counselors. But I visited there and became like really close with the dude that was helping me figure out what the hell I was going to do with my life. ⁓ And eventually I landed on nursing. And
Andrea Clark (15:13)
I love it, this is awesome.
Jen Wernicke (15:20)
I applied nursing and ended up getting denied. So the first time I applied, I was refused. And this truly like fed into the not good enough, not smart enough narrative that I had created, right? And actually, you know what? That was like a little bit before.
Andrea Clark (15:26)
Mm-hmm.
Thanks.
Jen Wernicke (15:40)
So I think that might have, that was sooner. But anyways, so what ended up happening is I went to, I was like, well, maybe I'll be a dental hygienist instead. I didn't really know. I'm like, that seems good. They get paid better than nurses. That's what I thought about. Like they get paid better. Yeah, they do. Except for like, there's no, it's, it's not, you're not in a union. Like Canadian nurses are unionized. we got, yeah, exactly. So.
Andrea Clark (15:55)
Do they get paid better than nurses in Canada?
Right, because it's usually if you work for a dentist or something. ⁓
Jen Wernicke (16:08)
all in all, nursing is a better quote unquote career path because you get pension, you get benefits, you get sick time, stuff like that. I didn't, like 18, 19 year old Jen wasn't thinking about that. I was looking at the dollar amount, right? Like what's the average salary each career makes? That's what I was looking at, right? ⁓ So I just started in general studies. I ended up.
Andrea Clark (16:26)
Yes, that totally.
Jen Wernicke (16:33)
because to be anything dental you need like two chemistries, a biology, like all of these high science. I ended up dropping out of organic chemistry because my mark was so bad and then I failed like chem 101 or whatever. So I was like okay I guess dentistry, dental hygiene is not for me, nursing it is, because nursing didn't require any chems.
Andrea Clark (16:54)
I'm here. I'm here.
Jen Wernicke (16:59)
So by that time I was considered a mature student and because I already had some college courses under my belt I was accepted when I reapplied. And so that was awesome. I was like, okay, I'm gonna make something of my life. I was like the third person on both sides of my family to go to college, right? So that's like also like a really freaking big deal. And then I had a kid.
Andrea Clark (17:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It is.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (17:25)
And I
remember my daughter is gonna be 10 right away. And I remember when she was like a baby, looking into her eyes and just saying like, everything I experienced as a kid, you're not going to. Like I'm gonna build you a warm loving home. And I didn't know how I was gonna do this. Like, right? I was just like, I knew within my being that like,
Andrea Clark (17:37)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (17:49)
I was emotionally neglected as a kid and that wasn't going to happen for my kid. And so I started therapy when she was a few months old. That was kind of like my first step, right? I was into fitness, I was into health, but it never really dawned on me like the intricacies of trauma and mental health. Hell, I didn't even really know what trauma was at that point.
Andrea Clark (17:55)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You probably didn't even label
yourself as having trauma like at that time.
Jen Wernicke (18:15)
No, no.
So that was kind of, you know, that first step in me creating this course was making that promise to her and myself, really, right? As much as it was a promise to her, it was a promise to myself as well. and I think where we get tripped up as moms is that we will often go back on promises we make to ourselves.
Andrea Clark (18:25)
Yeah.
like all the time. Let's be real here.
Jen Wernicke (18:43)
Right?
I know. I, like, for two weeks, I've been like, I'm gonna get up in the morning and go for a walk and I haven't frickin done it. Right? Like, how you can relate to that.
Andrea Clark (18:52)
Well, even last night I said to my husband, I said, I am going back on agreements with myself.
in regards to certain self care, I'm like, and because of X, Y, and Z that needs to be done or like, you know, we're in this little crazy season because I'm traveling with my daughter. And so I'm like, I need to reel it in and like let go of this to-do list that I gave myself. Like, fuck this. If I don't get it done before I leave, I have to not care. Like I can't treat myself this way.
Jen Wernicke (19:27)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (19:28)
And of course he's like support. It's not like, you know, he's supportive, right? But yes, it's like an issue. We have this issue as women. It's horrible.
Jen Wernicke (19:38)
you wonder, this is a thought that came, is like, do some of the the pressures we put on ourselves have to do with like conditioning or societal expectations sometimes, right? So it's like, it's learning too to like give yourself grace, like I'm kind of in this really slow down phase of my life, but I'm also having this internal
Andrea Clark (19:49)
⁓ like majorly, yes.
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (20:03)
like pulling of myself because I'm not honoring my physical body like I normally do through movement.
Andrea Clark (20:09)
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (20:09)
right? And and normally that really like invigorates me and makes me feel good. And so it's almost like this programming or this automation that's in my mind that like exercise is so supportive for me. But then not having the drive to do it is like this internal battle that I'm experiencing. And this is kind of like a bit of a sidebar. But
goes back to this whole idea of like, as moms we go back on promises we make, or women, right? We go back to promises we make for on, we make to ourselves. Yes, yeah.
Andrea Clark (20:45)
Well, it starts before you're mom anyway, right? It's
really about women and how we're conditioned to betray ourselves all the time on so many different levels. And then when you become a mom, it's often now you think that you like, have to put your child, you do put your child first, but like you think that like,
Jen Wernicke (20:50)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Self-sacrifice.
Andrea Clark (21:09)
Yeah, like if you honor yourself, somehow you're betraying your child. And it's like such a weird, it's like such a demented way. If you really take a step back and you think about it, you're like, you know, when I sleep well and when I do certain types of movement and I make sure that I'm fed, I am way better as a wife and a mom.
Jen Wernicke (21:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (21:32)
way better. Like, and that's just like fundamental shit. That's not even like other stuff that I do to film, you know, like fuel myself. And like, I'll give you guys an example. Last night, my daughter, so yesterday was kind of a crazy day and I made sure to get out my walk-in in the evening. I almost didn't do it. And then I came home and she was really struggling because of how crazy of the day was there wasn't a lot of connection. And she's connection is like,
Jen Wernicke (21:33)
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (22:00)
her thing and we're a very connected family. And she looks me in the eyes at bedtime. I haven't had dinner yet because I did a late walk. Everything was like behind and she's like, I'm just, mom, I'm just feeling really sad. And I'm, I just feel like we had no connection today. She's a little older and of course, like I'm a therapist. So she has like this language that she knows how to use. She's like, I'm, I just, I'm feeling weird. And and she was like very distressed. And so.
In that moment, I'm like, I need to eat dinner, right? And I'm just like, but I'm also like, I know she needs connection. Like we have not had connection today. Like I'm definitely running kind of like on this, know, like we gotta get certain things done. So I laid down with her and my body was starting to feel like you need to eat. So old me would have been like totally just.
it doesn't matter if she needs connection, like whatever, right? And I said to her, was like, I really have to make a shake at least, you know, or whatever. And you know, her papa was there, so we were all like laying there cuddling or whatever. So I was like, I'll be back in five minutes. And she's like, okay. And so I went and I got my shake and like, you know, they sang and prayed and I just had my hand on her and like it was there, but.
It's just like a little example of you have to because I would have gotten a migraine. And then today would be like, you see what I'm saying? And it's just like an old me would have potentially just, you know, my daughter needs connection. I don't, I can't step away for five minutes. And this is like the battle that we're constantly having as women and as moms. Like that's a perfect little example right there, right? And I want her to see
Jen Wernicke (23:25)
Mm-hmm. Today, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (23:46)
that you need to take care of yourself. And so there are times when I'll say, I can't do that right now because I need to make my food first and then I can do it or just different things. Or sometimes I'm like, you can get it, like please get it yourself. I'm sitting down to eat right now. And like, I really need to fuel my body, you know? And by me doing that, she then sees that she can be that way when she steps into a world like her world of
being pulled and you need to just do for me and all this stuff, right? Yeah, and it's hard. It's really hard.
Jen Wernicke (24:22)
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that is, it's such a good point. But what happened in making that promise to her that like, I was going to do what I needed to do is that I've been unwavering in it. And yeah, you know, like some seasons have looked different than others in terms of the investment that I've made, right? ⁓
Andrea Clark (24:37)
Yeah, totally.
Hopefully.
Jen Wernicke (24:47)
And I think that's one of the reasons why within this program that I've created, I offer so much variety and so many suggestions is because I know as a mom and as a human being, our seasons look different. So you have more to give sometimes than others. Whether it's time, whether it's financially, know, whether it's emotionally, like there's so many different
Andrea Clark (24:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (25:15)
factors that contribute to it. And it is still something that I'm deeply invested in. And I think that's so important when you're investing in somebody to support you and walk with you through this journey, right, is to make sure that they're walking the walk too.
Andrea Clark (25:25)
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
Jen Wernicke (25:39)
So.
Andrea Clark (25:39)
So tell us a little bit more about, okay, it started with therapy and are there some things you learned along the way that made you decide to become and like study the nervous system so closely? Because I think the nervous system is like this.
buzzword and you know anybody can like chat GPT like a little paragraph about the nervous system it's it's you know and we can do little like different things to support our nervous system but like when it comes to actually getting your nervous system flexible and able to bounce back and you know in a more grounded place like that's a whole different deal you know what i mean like so
Jen Wernicke (26:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (26:22)
What led you to this specifically versus, you know, you could have done, I mean, it's all connected, but you could have been like hormones or fitness or you know what I mean?
Jen Wernicke (26:32)
Yeah, so in that, in that time when my son was sick and then we moved into the pandemic, I started to notice that things that used to like roll off my back weren't rolling off my back anymore. I was really snappy at my kids, like they'd, I'd be cooking dinner and they were little at that point in time, like three and five. ⁓
Andrea Clark (26:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (26:59)
they'd be playing in the living room and I'd scream at them to be quiet. And it's like it and I knew that like their kids they should be having fun they should be able to play but it was like just too much for my system. Like whether it was like after a day of work or even on a day off or whatever right? I
Andrea Clark (27:03)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (27:18)
Looking back, I didn't really see an issue with this, but now I see how this is an overwhelmed nervous system, like to a T, a prime example, is that on my days off, I always sent my kids to day home. I could not tolerate being with them for more than like the weekend, essentially, and the evenings.
Andrea Clark (27:37)
Yeah.
and
Jen Wernicke (27:44)
It's not that I didn't want to, but I just couldn't handle it. And I didn't recognize that until I decided to start like last earlier this year, we decided that we're going to start homeschooling in September and I was yes.
Andrea Clark (27:56)
⁓ my gosh you did Jen?
Wow.
Jen Wernicke (28:00)
And it wasn't until like after a lot of discussion, you know, between my husband and I in deciding that we were going to do it where I actually realized how far I've come. Like from going to like literally not wanting to spend a day off with my kids. And this sounds so horrible probably to some of you listening, but like I was in sheer survival mode.
Andrea Clark (28:23)
Yeah, this is the thing, like, we keep it real around here. And I will be honest that when my nervous system has been really dysregulated, I literally by Sunday evening, I'm like, yes, tomorrow's Monday, my husband goes back to work and my daughter goes back to school. And I'm like, my gosh, it's only been two days. And it's not because you don't love, it's because...
the output and the stimuli and the chaos and the disarray and the, it's just, it's like, you know, and if you are, if you are somebody who has an intense career or it's like, you need rest, well, the stimuli from your family isn't rest. And so that's where actually regulating yourself comes in. You know what I mean?
Jen Wernicke (29:07)
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (29:11)
It's not that you have to quit your job or not. I mean, maybe, but it's more like you have to learn how to like take care of your nervous system to where it can actually still be balanced and grounded and resilient with the environment that you're in. That's really what it's about.
Jen Wernicke (29:25)
Mm hmm.
And you know what the best thing is, you guys is that it's intense when you first get started, right? Like, but I found, and I do not believe that you ever arrive in this work, like, absolutely not ever.
Andrea Clark (29:34)
Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (29:42)
But I do think that you become more self-aware and you get a lot more proficient in knowing what practices work best for you so that when you do get to that state, you can very quickly bring yourself back. And Andrea used the word flexible earlier. And that's exactly what that looks like. There's never going to be a time where you aren't dysregulated.
Andrea Clark (29:57)
Yeah.
Yeah. There's going to be stuff that, that, that like,
Jen Wernicke (30:08)
makes sense. Like you're going to get dysregulated. Exactly. Stuff's
going to come up that causes you to go into a state of panic or into fight or flight.
Andrea Clark (30:18)
Yeah,
agitation. Well, emotions aren't dysregulation, let's be very clear, but like it there's going to be stuff that you experience that you're like, Whoa, I need to like, get grounded. I mean, that's life. Like, that's, that's stimuli. ⁓
Jen Wernicke (30:23)
Yeah.
Yeah,
at the beginning of my journey, I didn't know what that was though. Right? And I didn't know how to stop it. and I guess, when did nervous system come into play for me? I don't know.
Andrea Clark (30:39)
Yeah, totally.
Jen Wernicke (30:49)
I don't even know, I can't even pinpoint a time. maybe it was like, I guess like through learning about the gut brain access is where I really, now that I'm like talking this out, right? Learning about the gut brain access and then beyond how it impacted my son and his inflammatory issues.
relating it and learning how it caused me to like start hiding in in operating rooms, you know, breathing through panic attacks, and that was never anything that I'd ever experienced before, and things like that. I guess that's like kind of where I started to become aware of it. It definitely wasn't therapy that helped me with that though. Therapy helped me process the emotions, right? Yeah.
Andrea Clark (31:19)
Yeah.
No, listen, yes. And
even in therapy, let's be very real. If it's talk therapy, you're not even fully processing the emotions. You are intellectualizing a lot of times. And we all know I don't believe in talk therapy for very long. It's a great awareness tool, but once you're aware, it's time to move into like healing.
Jen Wernicke (31:40)
Exactly.
Yeah, well, what's interesting
Okay, but
talking about that, like the second therapist that I started seeing, she did an EMDR on me and I still am not convinced that it actually worked because I was still in such a state of disarray that I don't think that I was able to disconnect with my logical mind enough. Right? Like when we're doing the eye motion stuff and whatever.
Andrea Clark (32:08)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (32:13)
I think there were things that I processed, but I think that it, I think that when I...
Andrea Clark (32:19)
You were probably a little
dissociated and she didn't recognize that. You know what's interesting? You saying that because my husband just graduated, whatever, just finished a 16 week intensive hypnotherapy program with his practitioner. And before she even did any kind of hypnotherapy on him, she did some things with him to actually see like,
Jen Wernicke (32:23)
Yes, exactly.
Andrea Clark (32:49)
how hypnotizable, like how much would he actually respond to being hypnotized in the first place or else it wasn't going to take, you know, it wasn't going. And I was like, that's really good practice because, and I will say I've done EMDR as well and my practitioner,
Jen Wernicke (32:51)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (33:08)
also went through some like questions and some things to make sure that I was actually going to be able to do like for EMDR to be fully effective for me. And I think that these are important that, mean, I'm just glad you brought this up because if a practitioner is doing some sort of brain work or rewiring or subconscious reprogramming, sometimes you have to make sure, well, not sometimes, you should always make sure that your person is gonna be able to be connected enough.
Jen Wernicke (33:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (33:36)
with
that practice for it to actually work and for them to really be able to integrate it. You know what I mean?
Jen Wernicke (33:41)
Mm-hmm,
yeah. I would definitely say, I don't remember, like this was so long ago, I don't know if she had like a questionnaire for me. I do remember connecting with some of it, but I also feel like a lot of the other things that I did after that were a lot more effective for me, right?
Andrea Clark (33:59)
Yeah,
I think EMDR is great, I don't think it, well, it doesn't do the things that like you and I are into. That's the thing. Like it doesn't clear, EMDR is not going to clear a literal trapped emotion out of your like kidney. You know what I'm saying? And if your kidney is whatever, having issues because you have a cluster of trapped emotions or
Jen Wernicke (34:01)
It's not my thing of choice. Like, personally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (34:25)
trauma or a trap toxin, EMDR isn't going to help with that. think EMDR can be very powerful. But to me, it's almost like a gateway. It's like a gateway modality into some very deep, like way deeper modalities. It clears away some of maybe like those immediate cobwebs of that, you know, to get people a little more grounded. But if you're wanting to like really do some serious subconscious reprogramming,
Jen Wernicke (34:36)
Yeah.
Well, I mean it.
Andrea Clark (34:51)
that EMDR is not the deal.
Jen Wernicke (34:52)
Well, and I mean, it's more mainstream, right? So of course, it's going to be something that if you're seeing a therapist who's trained in EMDR, right? If you're in therapy, and they're trained in EMDR, right? That's going to be kind of like your next step. Because that's kind of like, there's almost like a normal
Andrea Clark (35:09)
Yes.
Jen Wernicke (35:11)
flow of how people kind of get into this work, I would say, right? They think, I'm going to go to therapy and then eventually, like, I hear it from my clients in my nursing practice all the time. I have like a, I see people like one-on-one as a holistic nurse coach in my city. And, you know, the biggest thing they say is like, working with you is so much different because we don't like dwell on the past.
you know, we look forward to the future and all of those things happen, yes, and they have an impact, but like, I don't need to like dig it all up in order to make progress, you know? And so it's really refreshing for people working with me in that environment. hear it from clients over and over and over again, right?
Andrea Clark (35:47)
No.
No.
because you
use hypnosis and rapid resolution therapy techniques to help them rewire their subconscious. Yeah, it's like, need to know just a tiny little bit, but you don't need to have an hour discussion about all the horrific and the pain points and how it made them, they don't need to relive it. You just need to know enough to go and program. Yeah, and that's, yeah.
Jen Wernicke (36:18)
No.
Exactly.
Andrea Clark (36:24)
And I just think that, well, another thing about EMDR is there's a lot of research on it and it's been very championed and there's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of these other things that do much deeper healing and rewiring just don't have as much like mainstream notoriety at this point in time.
and I don't know if it ever will, that's just part of it. That's piece of it. And when insurance doesn't cover something, there's a lot of friction there.
Jen Wernicke (36:53)
Yep. So here's
the other thing, like my therapist, and like I said, I haven't seen her in years, but she got trained in biofeedback, but she wasn't allowed to market it to her clients. She wasn't really even allowed to talk to them about it unless they asked her. And I never did, I never did biofeedback with her or anything. It's some rule within her college, within her licensing body.
Andrea Clark (37:09)
Bye.
There's
so much bureaucracy that happens. Biofeedback has been shown to be very powerful. ⁓
Jen Wernicke (37:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. I know that
now, but like, I back then that was like in right four or five years ago. I didn't really, and because I don't know, I just never thought to really, I wasn't sure if it was something I needed, but yeah, I have been hearing more about it, but I mean, that's like the fucked up piece, right? Like these...
Andrea Clark (37:33)
Great.
It is, there's a lot of bureaucracy
that happens and it's just, it's all it does is hurt people who are coming to get help. It's just like, yeah.
Jen Wernicke (37:59)
And I think
like on the other side of that is that's why so many people are going to unregulated professionals now to get stuff done. Right?
Andrea Clark (38:09)
Yeah,
I mean, I agree.
Jen Wernicke (38:12)
or like
coaches without any certification or any really like true qualifications. And I mean, you can have the argument of like, do you need a degree? if you have like this skill and whatever, right? And to help people, I don't know. Like I've seen tons of people that don't necessarily have any traditional training that do incredible work. I mean, there's...
Andrea Clark (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
really?
Like, like, like what?
Jen Wernicke (38:37)
Well, you know, like people that I've trained in RRT with are just coaches. Like some of them have like maybe a coaching certification, no actual formal education. Yes, they are. They're getting certified. Yes. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (38:46)
like formal education, but they're getting certified, right? So they are getting an education.
Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know your stance on that, but I personally feel that I I'm cool with it. Just because yeah, I mean, get a cert, listen, and this is what I tell people. If you're going to go do EMDR, you do not go do it with somebody who's had some CEUs. You go with somebody who is fucking certified. They are in your head, like,
Jen Wernicke (39:00)
So am I.
Andrea Clark (39:16)
Hello, right? So there's definitely things like hypnotherapy. They need to be certified, right? RRT, need to be certified. Belief code, need to be, like don't just people who have like dabbled, no. Like you want people who passed whatever certification, but do they need to have a master's in psychology? I don't give a shit about that.
Jen Wernicke (39:22)
Yeah.
Yes. ⁓
No.
Yeah.
Andrea Clark (39:38)
Like,
and I also have, there's a lot to be said for experiential knowledge. And of course that's not quantifiable and that's not a double blind study. And that's not, you know, 40,000 in debt of a degree. It usually is debt of life, but I also think that that matters to a certain degree.
Jen Wernicke (39:53)
Yeah ⁓
Well, it creates that relatability. Like if I were to come to you and create like this program that I'm gonna offer and not actually have lived experience, like I just don't think it bears as much weight. Cause I actually, I can't help you in the same way.
Andrea Clark (40:10)
Well, it's, yeah,
well, yeah, it's the embodiment piece. You know, this is really interesting because when I was first a therapist, I did have a co, and I was in family therapy, right? I was practicing marriage and family therapy. I was married, but I didn't have a child. And I was like this early 30 year old. And I'm like telling parents, I'm educating some parenting. And I had a couple of parents,
Jen Wernicke (40:16)
Yes. ⁓
Andrea Clark (40:37)
give me a hard time when I really challenge them on some pretty unhealthy behaviors. And the thing that I stood on more than even my degree was I said, I am a child, I am a former child of parents who parented from their own wounds, their own emotional dysfunction, their own lack of boundaries. I said, so no, I'm not a mom yet. You're right, I'm not a mom yet.
but I had a mom who did similar things and I very clearly remember how that made me feel, how that affected me, the things I've had to work through as an adult. I said, and I have the education. I said, so I hear you and if you need to go see somebody who is a mom to feel like they're credible, fine. I'm like, that's fine. I was like, but I know I'm credible. And when I...
Jen Wernicke (41:22)
Yeah, you have that experience
from a different angle, but it was still an experience that you had.
Andrea Clark (41:25)
Yes.
yes. And so usually when I said that, like, they were like, oh, I didn't even think of that, right? Because, you know, like, I made a promise to myself when I was like 13 that like, I will never forget what these things feel like so that I can help other parents understand how they're making their children feel. And lived experiences.
Jen Wernicke (41:44)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (41:49)
Very important, especially if you're somebody who's taken your lived experience or you are in process of that, right, because we're always in process, you're taking it and you are transmuting it into like now living like a very embodied life of that more healing piece and that other piece, right, that integrated piece.
That's a lot of wisdom in itself. Like that is important. It's not all about credentials and white coats and education. Like I will not, I will not give my money. I don't give a shit if you are a doctor. If you don't have it, like if you're not embodied in some way, this includes female doctors who I'm gonna talk to you about any of my like hormones or anything.
If I can't tell that you are embodied and you have like had some experience, you're not going to talk to me about anything. You know, I have a hormone doctor who went through and it's a male and normally I'm not into male doctors, but he has gone through his own hormone journey and he understands male and female hormones well and he's very passionate about that and he's had his own journey and he actually shares about it, about his
Jen Wernicke (43:05)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (43:06)
his issues with his own hormones and his wife's journey. And so I'm like, okay, I trust you. You get it. It's not just about like, I know the chemistry or the science or the biology. You actually get it. You know how hard it can be when you're having hormone issues. And he speaks to me from that place. He's like one of the most compassionate men I've ever worked with. So it's important to align with people who
Jen Wernicke (43:21)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (43:32)
have lived experience, right? You know what I mean? I feel very passionate about that.
Jen Wernicke (43:37)
Yeah, I agree. well, I think it just also, I mean, depending on what capacity you're working with that person, it creates that connection piece as well.
Andrea Clark (43:46)
Yeah, yeah. And I think that connection, like connection is something that people are valuing more and more and more as they're choosing their mentors or practitioners or healers or programs or whatever it is, you know what I mean? Is that they just really need to feel deeply connected and want and need to trust that that person is really walking the walk.
Jen Wernicke (44:05)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Clark (44:14)
in some way, or form that's similar to what they're about to embark on. Yeah, it's like receipts, you know what saying?
Jen Wernicke (44:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
well, I mean, not to throw shade at anybody, but, know, like the health care workers that are obese or smoke and they're like telling you that you need to do all of these things. And it's like, well, I mean, not necessarily that obesity means that you're not active or things like that. Right. But a lot of people have an issue with that. Right. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Andrea Clark (44:47)
Yeah.
Well, I will tell you that when I got divorced and I was really struggling with the trauma around that, I actually took three months off from practicing because I was like, first of all, I couldn't hang, but second of all, in my own integrity, was like, I can't be working, not because I felt like a failure. It's not like if you ever get divorced, you can't help.
couples stay in their marriage. I've helped a lot of couples stay in their marriage. There's wisdom from my divorce, but at that moment I was not in a place where I should be stewarding other people on their journey. And that would have been so, like lacking in integrity for me at that moment. Like I recognize that and
I would have been going through the motions and it would have been just not, it would have been from a place of needing money, not, and I just wasn't gonna do that. Yeah, and I just, I was like, I have to get myself grounded and through this and to like a healthier place with all of this to where I can support people through the wisdom that I will gain from this, not, you know what I mean? Like, and right now I don't, there's no wisdom. I'm just like, through, you know.
Jen Wernicke (45:41)
service. Yeah.
Yeah, well you were in a trauma
cycle. Like it was...
Andrea Clark (46:02)
Yeah, so I took three
months off from practicing and I know not everybody can do that, right? Like I had other things going on, you know, another business with that, but it's like, this is what I'm talking about where it's just like, you know, having integrity and nobody has to be perfect. But if you're not trying and then you're telling other people to do shit, like what? It's just, I agree with you. I do, agree with you.
You know? Yeah. So I think that that's really important. So I love your journey to figuring out that you have a nervous, well, you knew you had it because you're a nurse, but like that your nervous system actually does what it does.
Jen Wernicke (46:44)
Well, yeah, but like we don't learn about the nervous system in the way that I share about it now or I teach about it now. Like we learn about it as like, okay, this, you know, yeah, exactly. Makes your heartbeat, makes, right? And like different, yeah. And like, obviously in the OR we talk about like, like the movement piece of your nerves too, right? Like.
Andrea Clark (46:47)
Yes, ma'am.
Yeah, it makes you poop. makes it very like, yes, it's like very functional, like the way that we learn about.
Jen Wernicke (47:10)
you know if you're doing a carpal tunnel surgery like you got to watch those nerves so you don't you know so like more of that physical piece too versus like how its role in managing emotions
Andrea Clark (47:18)
Yes.
Yes, like stimuli response. And yeah, I mean, I didn't learn any of that in grad school. And I don't know if like for mental health practices, if the curriculum has changed. I don't know, probably not.
Jen Wernicke (47:27)
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, because
you could argue like back then, right? Like that was 20 years ago already. Like there just wasn't that knowledge that there is now either. So that could be an argument. Who knows?
Andrea Clark (47:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. But
so I interviewed somebody who told me it takes an average of 17 years for a new like way of thinking or modality to actually get to mainstream like Western medicine teaching and teaching and Yeah, and also I can't remember the stat but it was it was like a huge stat
Jen Wernicke (48:12)
17?
Andrea Clark (48:20)
huge percentage of modalities that have validity, have efficacy, don't even make it at all. I'm like, this is offensive. Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (48:26)
Yeah. I believe that. I do believe that. But 17
years? That's like... yes.
Andrea Clark (48:34)
Right, so it's lagging. It's lagging. Obviously
then if it's lagging from the, like it's lagging from any of the, you know, any kind of medical and or mental health education systems then, right? Like the, what it takes to put those things in place, like textbooks and experts, like of course then, I mean, I think about what I learned and it was very powerful, but even what I learned at that point was behind for where we were at those times.
Jen Wernicke (48:44)
Yeah.
huh.
Yeah,
yeah. Well, and I think that's like the, a really valuable piece of like, what we do is that we've truly been ahead of our time for a long time, you know? And I think like, so you guys, I've been, I have had this program on my heart for four years now. And I don't know if it was like,
Andrea Clark (49:14)
Yeah, totally.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (49:28)
you know, God telling me it wasn't the time yet, like people weren't ready for it or like what it was that... I mean there's lots of different theories that we could throw out there about why it took me this long to get it out there. But I think a part of it is, yeah, I just felt like maybe the world wasn't ready for it.
Andrea Clark (49:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Wernicke (49:47)
But now people are starting to wake up and realize how big of a role all of these things play in in parenthood, right? And the interconnectedness of it all. And so yeah, it just feels like the perfect time now.
Andrea Clark (50:01)
Yeah, I also think you're, I mean, I know you personally, so like you're really embodied right now, like on a, like on the, probably on the highest level that I've ever seen you for your, like at your personal journey. Do you know what I mean? And I think that when we hold containers for others, like, yes, like life happens and sometimes, you know, again, it's never perfect. That's the whole point, but.
Jen Wernicke (50:14)
Yeah, totally, I agree with you. Yeah.
Andrea Clark (50:24)
when you're a coach or a mentor, you're outpouring, you're teaching people how to live a certain way, you want to be trying to like embody that as much as possible because that's the space that you're going to mentor and create from and yeah, yeah, I mean, you know me well, there's been times where I've come to you I've been like, I am being a freaking hypocrite or like a fraud. Like I'm
Jen Wernicke (50:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
What's the energy too that you bring to the relationship?
Andrea Clark (50:52)
preaching, you know, boundaries and this and that, and then I'm not even doing it myself. Like I need to recalibrate. I need to reevaluate, right? And so it's always a process. Like life changes. Yeah. It makes you have to recalibrate and reevaluate and all that. But when you're in a place where you are having that awareness and you're able to like say, okay, let me, I need to challenge myself here. I need to, you know,
Jen Wernicke (50:58)
Yeah.
Yeah, it happens to all of us.
Andrea Clark (51:17)
do some either self accountability or some accountability with whoever, my mentor, my friends or whatever, and I need to recalibrate, that's really important, right? Because that means you're not living in autopilot, even if you experience autopilot for like a week and then you go, wait a minute, I was in autopilot. You're not like living from that place, you know? And that's really important when you're stewarding other people's journeys too. Yeah.
Jen Wernicke (51:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Andrea Clark (51:43)
So where can people find you? Where can people go learn about your program? Where can people just come and hang out with you?
Jen Wernicke (51:50)
So you can hang out with me on Instagram or Facebook, at Jen Wernicke Yeah. And then I also have a sweet little guide to help you get started on your journey to stop snapping, right? Like to be able to tolerate your family's shenanigans.
Andrea Clark (51:56)
There will be all the links in the show notes, no matter where you're watching or listening from.
Jen Wernicke (52:13)
right? Manage stress a little bit better. So there's, it's a three simple strategies that are going to support you in that. And then there's also not in the title, but a pretty sweet, savory little bonus in that guide for you as well.
Andrea Clark (52:29)
I love it. Okay, thank you for this conversation. I think it's been really incredible. Yes.
Jen Wernicke (52:28)
social.
Mm-hmm. one more thing. I
do have my Facebook community. It's called Mums Who Snap that you can also come and join. offer a lot of free value in terms of different content and stuff that I share in there as well.
Andrea Clark (52:40)
Okay.
Okay, beautiful. we'll link that in the show notes as well.
Jen Wernicke (52:52)
So lots of places where you can, you can chill. Yeah. Well, I'm not on TikTok and I'm not on LinkedIn. So I'm not everywhere or YouTube yet. So no, I am not everywhere. But...
Andrea Clark (52:54)
You're like everywhere.
Today is your YouTube debut.
Okay, I love it. Well, thank you for spending this time with me and for all your wisdom and sharing your story. And I know that you are going to make a massive impact with this program and I'm really excited about it.
Jen Wernicke (53:21)
Thank you for having me, it was so fun talking to all of you.
Andrea Clark (53:25)
All right, we'll see you guys in the next episode.