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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
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Becky Mollenkamp (01:19.392)
Thank you for being here and for reading this essay with me. We're going to talk about Susan Sontag, double standard of aging. And I know you said, because life is lifeing right now, you had to go through it kind of more quickly than you might have liked. But we were saying right before we started recording, you kind of get the gist from the title and you kind of get the like the it's a lot of repetition of the thought. So if you haven't read it listeners, you can it's the link to it's in the show notes, but also just the title kind of gives it away. Right. This dip, the double standard that we experience between men, folks who identify as women and folks who identify as men and the way that aging is perceived and received differently.
Ana Xavier (02:13.42)
Yeah, it was really interesting to see this because again, I am an immigrant living in the US and so Portugal, which actually was referenced in the story. I thought it was really interesting because I was like, yeah, I remember when I moved to the US to be shocked again, you have the structure of like the media and a lot of the consumption that we have. So it's not that I came out and like, my gosh, like this is new.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:22.569)
It was.
Ana Xavier (02:40.792)
But at the same time, how people perceive their purpose and how women see themselves is very different than in Portugal. So I definitely can attest to the idea that women go a lot sooner like, OK, that's it. My golden years are gone. I have no purpose in life. And to come into the US and see so many women who are so driven, who are still reinventing themselves in so many ways, physically, mentally.
It was really fascinating. in terms of culture, that has been an interesting shift in just internalization. Yeah, like just of how people behave like for you. Even just going through time, guess, like today, looking through what happens today and what happened 50 years ago, 100 years ago.
It's different, is there really? I was reading through it and I was like, that's still checks, that's still tracks, that still happens. It's still so relevant.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:35.636)
Yeah, I mean, it was written. Yeah, it's from 1972, which is before I was born. I feel like we should start this by saying how old we are because the whole beginning of the piece talks about how women lie about their age and this necessity to lie or to feel shame about it. So I think we should boldly and proudly say how old we are. I just turned 50 this year and that was one of those round numbers she mentioned and it did have weight to it, which we can talk about. And how old are you? Cesar, you're on the younger end and I'm like getting into that place, but
Ana Xavier (03:42.926)
Sure. yeah.
Ana Xavier (03:59.362)
I'm 36.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:05.504)
I'm curious then because I will say as a 50 year old reading this, who's going through the early, I'm, I think I'm coming up on menopause. I'm in para menopause. I think I'm getting close now to reaching that like other side of that destination. This definitely had resonance for me of like, this aging process is really something. And then watching my husband age on a similar timeline, but how it feels vastly different, I think for our experiences with aging. Like I really felt this, even though was written before I was born.
There were so many parts that felt relevant. As somebody who's only 36, I say only, I don't know how you feel about your number, but to me, I'm like, 36, that was like the perfect age. I loved like my mid 30s and she talks a little bit about mid 30s, but how did it land with you as you think about aging?
Ana Xavier (04:39.2)
Only.
Ana Xavier (04:51.726)
Well, interestingly enough, I always find myself as like, I consider myself an old soul. So I was always very like mature for my age and I always gravitated toward older folks. So it's interesting because if you're not watching this, may not notice, but I have gray hair. I have more gray hair than my husband who's 52. So it's really interesting for me because I started dyeing my hair because I like
the creative side of it. I really enjoyed dying my hair different colors. And when I started going, it was during the pandemic, it was like, I grayed my hair and then I was like, let's see what happens. And then I started my business and it was like the conflict, like those two things of like surviving a pandemic and launching your own business with it, all of that stress comes through. And it's really interesting because a lot of women see me with my gray hair and they think that you have no idea what age I am, but it's
fascinating, especially when I go back to Portugal, when I present and I'm someone who likes dressing creatively and dressing and kind of like just leveraging my own like, I would say passion. So I present as someone who is different. So when older women show are on the street and see me they go, Oh, interesting because I always thought of like dyeing my hair.
as like something that I have to hide my age. At the same time, I don't want to look sloppy. And when they see that gray hair can be worn in a very confident way and look different than that perception of what it could be, I live for those moments because I see the wheels turning in their heads. And sometimes I have conversations with them and I'm like, you should try it. And sometimes they go, you know what? And I'm like, yes, like I'm making change.
But I do not like people have very kind of like ambiguous ideas about my age, but normally they go, 36 years so young. And I'm like, okay. I like, I always wanted to be older, like for some reason, always like my mind is like ahead. So I'm kind of like, okay, think I guess thank you. But there's that, since I have my gray hair, like it's fascinating to me that idea of like.
Ana Xavier (07:12.75)
interesting at the same time. it doesn't work for me. Just like how we present makeup or not, which is talked about multiple times and just like little things. I do think that as we present, we can really have an impact and active and passive impact and ripple effects on how we behave. So to me, it was like a reminder of that, of how we have a lot of power in a way to change some of the narratives. And I don't know about you, but like I
find that being 36 is kind of like young, especially as a lot of women go through this age of like going for a second career or third career. I'm childless of choice. basically child free, actually, I was like, what's the term that makes most sense yet child free. And that there's a lot of like, things that are talked about like
Do you want to have children? Is that the only purpose? And I'm like, my gosh, so many things that I'm like, yeah, I questioned those a lot.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:12.224)
Well, by mid thirties, those are questions that I remember because I was child free by choice at that age as well and thought I would remain so and then ended up in a different relationship and had a child very late, which is its own interesting experiment or experience in America where, at least where I'm at in the middle of America, that is not the typical culture to have children at 40 and women are having children in their early twenties or mid twenties.
My experience though is similar at that time. And I remember the immense pressure that you get from people. First, it was always, when are you going to get married? And then you think, I'll do that. And then they'll leave me alone. And then, it's when are you going have a kid? And then it turns out they start asking you when are you going to have the next kid? It's like it's a never ending, these expectations that are always, it's interesting how they're generally, those questions are thrown at women. And then I'm talking here very much in heteronormative relationships and in that kind of experience. And I see that, you know,
Ana Xavier (08:49.825)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:07.486)
women getting that question and often the men that they're with are not getting the same question. So it's very interesting. Like it says, if we have a timeline, an expiration date that men don't, and there is some biological truth to that to some degree, right? I'm in the throws out now of like all my eggs are saying we're done. Like I'm having a fire sale on eggs. My body's getting rid of them saying I'm this is it. And so like there is that truth that I'm going to be running out of eggs. also doesn't mean there aren't many other ways to experience
Ana Xavier (09:29.294)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (09:36.768)
parenting and have children and there are people who are doing it at different ages. But I think that there is that piece of, okay, your days are numbered to have children. And so you need to, you know, by these traditional standards, get married so that you can have the kids and the next kids and all of that. But also, it's kind of bullshit because the men that are in those relationships, by not asking them, it's almost like making this assumption that
Ana Xavier (09:56.493)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:01.748)
Well, if it doesn't work out, he can always go and find someone else who will do that for him. So I don't even need to ask him because there's no pressure on him. It's only on her. Whoa.
Ana Xavier (10:05.217)
Yep.
Ana Xavier (10:10.434)
Yeah, and that conversation keeps showing up, The pressure on women to abide by the norms. And it's funny because I had a very different experience because I came from London to Dallas, so the South. And so I came from not having a relationship to then when I moved to the US, I was in a relationship and we got married, to then come from the place where I have no friends with kids because everybody moves out of London when you have kids because it makes no sense.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:21.6)
yeah
Ana Xavier (10:39.054)
to coming to a place in the South where everything is very family friendly. And the amount of times that I got asked within the first three to four months of, are you going to have kids? Because your husband would be a great dad. I'm like, are you going to ask me if I want? And so I was really shocked. was like, the amount of people that asked me that, I was not prepared. And it's also so much of that expectation that, of course, you're going to have kids. And I'm like,
Why would I want to? I just landed here. Let me settle first or what if it's not something. But that statement of, you gonna have kids and your husband would be a great dad? was like, okay, do I need to oblige? Because that's expected. That was one of the first conversations that we had as a couple. I was super clear. was like, do not, never wanted kids.
happy to be the cool aunt. I have actually a twin sister and she has a little one. I'm like, happy to be that, happy to be a godmother, happy to be a supporter for whoever needs it. But like, I don't want them kids of my own. And so respect to, know, if you want to have a family, awesome. But those expectations that if you don't want kids, of course, it's that's the reason why like your, your husband would be a great dad. I'm like, why have you asked him?
that assumption that I'm the gatekeeper, like I am the reason why things are not, you know what I mean? It's something that was so shocking to me. I was not expecting. So on your experience, how was it?
Becky Mollenkamp (12:01.843)
Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:14.866)
Yeah, well, feel very similar. And it was and it got it got frustrating because at the time when I was certain I wasn't going to have children and people couldn't take that as the answer. And it was my answer. Did it change? Yeah, but that doesn't it didn't have to change. And I also know and this is very hard for women, many women, many mothers to hear. I would be as happy or perhaps more happy if I didn't have a child. I love my child more than anything. I do like anyone who like I'm obsessed with that kid.
And I also know because I had such a long and full life without him, I would have been fine. I would have been great, in fact. Right. And so like it was hard for people to accept that when you could when I said that. And I had that knowledge in my 30s that I was going to be fine if I didn't have a kid and I didn't really want them that change. But I also can still say I was right then that I would have also still been fine and happy if I hadn't had a kid. And it's hard for people to see that. And then you were talking to about like this. Your husband will be a great father. What are you guys going to have kids? All of that. It feels like
And I think this goes to the piece where it's women have this timeline because we are seen as like we go from being children to being vessels to create children for men. And so like that is the extent of our timeline. And that's why, you know, and again, she addresses this was in 1972. Then I think the age of expiration, quote unquote, was a little earlier than it is now. And she mentioned that expiration age does keep kind of moving up as life expectancy moves up.
Ana Xavier (13:33.293)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:40.434)
Right. So in the days when women lived to be 40, sure, 20 was like 25 was like old and out to pasture. Now women live to be 90. And so it's more like in our 40s where it starts to be you're no longer viable as a person. But it also, I think, very much corresponds to birthing. Right. And she didn't I didn't really feel like she talked as much about that in this piece. But I think that has a lot to do with that aging piece where that's that double standard. Men can have she mentioned a little bit. Men can have children, they're virile until they die.
And women cannot, through natural circumstances, bear children until old age. There is that sort of cutoff. And it does feel like that is a piece of that root of this, is this idea of women as objects to bear children for men. So then once you can't do that, you're no longer relevant.
Ana Xavier (14:29.324)
Yeah. And that idea that men, there's this whole narrative showing up on TikTok that I think is really interesting about the decentering men from your life decisions. And it's so true because if you look through the piece and you put it into today's standards and you think, okay, how much of my behaviors, how much our behaviors, our mother's behaviors, our grandmothers were centered around the male narrative and to do everything to abide by the male standards that men set. And so
Becky Mollenkamp (14:34.847)
Hmm.
Ana Xavier (14:58.43)
So much of the whole elements included in the piece are surrounding, yeah, purpose. Like purpose, but purpose to whom? Like definitely not purpose to us, right? Like it's not living a purposeful life. It's like always matching the expectation of like, where do you position yourself within the male existence? And that was, yeah, the looking through us and the comparison of
Becky Mollenkamp (15:10.464)
All
Ana Xavier (15:27.042)
the male look versus the female look, right? And the, if you have a scar is the worst thing that can happen, especially if you're beautiful. That narrative around, again, because you're pretty to look at for men, right? It was fascinating because as I was reading, I was thinking about that idea of like the TikTok, like, once I started decentering men of my decisions, my life looked completely different. And so,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:54.974)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (15:56.546)
Taking the moment to really revisit the past and see how much of our behavior is not ours to take, it is just learn imposed behavior and how much we're not really living our best life or living our honest life or truly who we are. Like we're just, it's kind of like layers of who we could be. But once you start going deeper, you're like, like interesting that maybe the person you would be is like,
very, very different when you start questioning those choices and those behaviors.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:29.332)
Yeah. Well, and I think so many of us buy into that belief that we have this timeline, this expiration date that we're up against. And why wouldn't we, right? Because it is so reinforced. And when you look around, like, and this was written in the 70s, women were, it was a very different experience professionally. And I do feel like that's one piece where you can tell some of the difference in time, right? We have made a lot of strides professionally since then. And so,
Ana Xavier (16:51.511)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:56.19)
That's great. There are places where some of the things she mentioned that we wouldn't that women didn't necessarily have as purpose. is that does exist now. And so much of what she talked about, though, remains true. Right. Sure. Some of those things have changed, but not all of them have. And and so, yeah, I just think it's very interesting to think about, like how little has changed even when many other things have started to change. You just said something else that made me think of something. And now I've forgotten it. See, this is the paraminopause brain. that we think we have a timeline.
Ana Xavier (17:24.43)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (17:26.304)
Because we buy into that notion that we have a timeline as well. And then because when you look at popular culture and look around, who are the people we see? don't see, popular culture doesn't give us TV shows about aging women that show that they have a vibrant life. It's starting to a little more, right? There are like, Gracing Frankie and there's a few others. Yeah, Frankie and Grace, there's a few other shows out there. But on the whole, the bulk of pop culture, the bulk of romance novels and
Ana Xavier (17:44.554)
Yes.
Frank.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:55.136)
and TV shows and movies that like everything that we see is women usually not much older than 40, maybe 50 if they do a real good job of tucking and staying small and working out and all of that. But generally it's women in their 20s, 30s, maybe into their 40s living this robust life. But when you don't see people in their 50s, 60s, 70s.
like eighties who are vibrant and doing things and getting out and enjoying a life that isn't just about trying to get a man and trying to have a baby. Of course, you're going to think, what other option do I have? And shit, my days are numbered. I got to get on it. So like, I think we buy into it, too. And that's really it's hard to break out of that.
Ana Xavier (18:37.196)
Yeah. And you were talking about, yeah, Grace and Frankie. And I just love that series. And this is kind of like a little bit of a side note, but I am a podcast producer. one of the content that I kind of curate and strategize for is a podcast talking about aging in style. And so I do have a consistent exposure.
to content that is about finding your purpose and aging differently. And I, in a way, I think about the Golden Girls. It was such a great show. There's a lot of things that, of course, didn't age well, but I thought that it was such a great show for ahead of its time. And like...
Becky Mollenkamp (19:25.022)
It was very ahead of its time.
Ana Xavier (19:26.856)
How much better would we be as a society if a lot of those shows had spin-offs and like we had more pop culture around those, right? Because again, why is the Golden Girls, not the franchise, but like kind of like the concept popular because it was very unique, right? And it kind of saddens me, but I find that it's our role to unfortunately like really pursue and make sure that
we surround ourselves with people who believe that aging is not a number. Yes. But also the content we consume, the people we follow on social media. I always think about this, how as consumers of social media content that we can curate our experience, right? Yet somehow we still end up with the same, you know, norms of beauty in our feeds. Right. And so I think that like, it makes me think a lot of about like how
Who am I following? What am I consuming? Not just TV, because it's like, yeah, TV is what is mainly like TV and movies and all. Like, I think we have a lot of agency to pull more of those stories into our lives and find people with different backgrounds and journeys. Like my mother-in-law, she's someone who, she's 80. She is someone who actually, she's 80, but she learned.
yoga, she's dancing like that lady walks five kilometers every day. She will do all the things that I'm like, I am so glad that I got to meet her because she inspired me and she's like, okay, like you can be 80 and you can be super mobile. You can have a very full life. She started painting. She like paints so much and I'm like, wow, like what a person. But again, she's like one in, I don't know, a thousand people that I know that like is
showcasing that life that is completely different. But again, all of those norms, I'm like, can fit 50 people per like any word that you'd say, oh, aging looks like this. And I'm like, yep, check. So I always think about that, like, what are we doing to change that experience for ourselves and for others as well? And yeah, no, that's it.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:43.264)
because my friends and I, you I have friends of a similar age who are all kind of hovering around in our 40s and early 50s. And we talk a lot about this idea of like, where do you look to find examples of what it looks like to age naturally? And listen, I understand why people don't. I understand dyeing your hair. I have stopped, but my hair is just not quite as gray as yours. It's starting to come in. I call it my tinsel because I think it looks like Christmas tinsel.
Ana Xavier (22:09.166)
Love.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:12.864)
But you know, I think everyone makes their own choices, plastic surgery, makeup. I wear a lipstick for this podcast. Most places I don't show up in lipstick or makeup. And that's the extent of makeup usually when I wear makeup. But I think everyone has to do what feels right for them. And those of us who maybe do want to age naturally where I don't want to do plastic surgery, I don't want to dye my hair, I want to allow my wrinkles to show my wisdom and, you experience. Where do I find examples of what that looks like in a way that feels empowering?
Ana Xavier (22:26.424)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:42.654)
And there, you know, it's people are starting to talk about it. Paulina Poroskova, I think is who it is. I hope I'm saying the right last name, but she's a model and she is talking all about aging naturally. Now she also happens to be incredibly thin, fits a lot of other societal beauty standards that not everyone can, but she is showing it. Justine Bateman is another person. Although I've found out she's a bit problematic, I think around like vaccines and stuff, but she is aging, you know, naturally and showing her face and talking about wrinkles and things.
Ana Xavier (22:56.973)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:09.844)
But there's not a ton of examples because even, you know, the Jane Fondas of the world and all these people who have done a lot of work. again, that is more power to women to do whatever they want. But it is hard when you're saying, I want to resist these beauty standards that we've talked about and she talks about this piece. But it feels it can feel very lonely and very scary because you feel like I mean, I know that you're still younger than I am and on the younger side of this aging conversation. But like you said, you've you're allowing your
Ana Xavier (23:13.688)
Right?
Ana Xavier (23:28.28)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:39.348)
gray hair to be out there. And I love the way you, you you style it in a way that's really cool and everything. I'm sure though that you've had some of that feeling of like, should I, if I don't dye my hair, like, you know, do you feel, cause I feel it. I feel like even though I feel so empowered and I'm like, fuck it, I'm not going to do any of that stuff. You do when you're around other people, like I'm around other people who are my age, who are doing all the things. And sometimes you think,
Ana Xavier (23:49.6)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:04.97)
How are people receiving me? How am I being judged? How am I judging myself next to all of these women? And you know, those feelings are hard to fight.
Ana Xavier (24:12.842)
my god, yes. And there's no right answer. think it's just like giving yourself grace and kind of like throwing yourself these small reminders. Maybe it's, you know, especially if you're out there with a lot of different people, it's reminding yourself that like, yes, sometimes I'm like, you know, I guess I have to be the one, the odd one, you know, like, okay, I'll be the one who says it. But...
it's hard as well to be consistently the one who's like, yeah, maybe you don't want to do that. Like, why are you asking yourself to do that? Like ask yourself first before you just go in and do whatever, like putting Botox or whatever it is, right? But I think that is really hard. There's no easy way to navigate it. I think that is with action every single time is showing up in a way that you feel the most comfortable in and reminding yourself that sometimes, and this is...
Again, I've moved countries many times, but maybe some people are not right for you anymore, right? Like they were great for a part of your life. And sometimes when they're, I don't want to say toxic, but when they don't align with your values and they make you feel bad about it, maybe it's time to really own it and say, well, maybe those people are not good for me mentally because they make me feel bad about who I am as a person. Like, why is it okay that men, and this was mentioned,
Why is it okay for men to not wear makeup and women feel like if you're not wearing makeup? It's like you're sloppy or you're not put together or like I Was about to say that I live with a British girl that she said I will never leave the house without makeup on I have to put my fix my face on I'm like, I'm sorry. What do mean? Yeah, like what?
Becky Mollenkamp (25:47.072)
Or they used to say, I don't have my face on. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:59.016)
your face is already there. That is how much of our life, like how much we have internalized that mask that we wear.
Ana Xavier (26:07.328)
Yeah, exactly. So I think that is questioning and it's not that like you do this all the time because it can be mentally exhausting, right? But really taking a second to think about is this me or is this society? And is this me that is this the right thing for me or is this a narrative that I grew up with and that maybe my mom, my grandma, my aunt, my whatever that put that in my head and it's just like deconstructing I find.
in small ways and also the identity we have with specific people that we meet, like when I go back home, I have to remind myself that we go into like autopilot mode. And so sometimes stuff comes out of my mouth that I'm like, today me does not agree with that, but because physically I am there, that comes out.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:00.18)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (27:01.718)
because you become someone else when you go back to your hometown or whatever, right? Like your brain does, your body does remember. So like you kind of default to sometimes like some old behaviors. And I sometimes have to catch myself and I'm like, that's all the me that would say that. Interesting. So sometimes it's like really questioning who you are in specific scenarios and specific locations with specific groups. And sometimes being a little bit of a disruptor.
just really asking like, you said that, but what do you mean by that? And sometimes questioning some of these conversations that people have. Like, for instance, you're in a group of friends and someone is ripping on someone else because they look this or they look that. I'm like, okay, how does this contribute to women as a collective? Why are we pushing this narrative of criticizing somebody for their looks, right?
just like really stopping those. It's sometimes hard, but I find that is like putting some boundaries and like, if these are narratives that we do not want to carry forward, we need to stop those behaviors.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:11.808)
Well, and to that, like that is the thing I try really hard to work on because I am somebody, some people are really good about changing internally. And when they make those changes internally, then they're able to bring that same belief system externally. Right. So if I stop judging myself, then I'll stop judging others. I'm wired more the opposite where I work. If I work really hard at doing things externally, then it starts to work internally. So like if I long enough, say, I think your gray hair is gorgeous. Right. And I see other women and I I
Ana Xavier (28:27.662)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:41.108)
really find and truly believe like, that's beautiful. Like I love that. And I love the way they do it. Eventually it becomes back to me going like, then why am I saying I don't like my gray hair? Like, right? Like eventually that cognitive dissonance causes me to create change. So I think either way, I think it is that really important thing of if you can stop judging others, you can stop judging yourself or the other way around, whichever works for you. But like the longer that we continue to judge each other as women on these issues.
Ana Xavier (28:51.202)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:10.618)
more and she does kind of mention the ways that we participate inside of the system of oppression, right? And I hate victim blamey kind of stuff because we didn't create the system. We are definitely victims of the system. And to create change that it does have to as much as it should start from the people who created the system, we know it probably won't. So we as women need to start like making forcing change by saying, I'm not going to judge people who have plastic surgery.
Ana Xavier (29:16.664)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:38.856)
Not for me, good for them. I love that phrase from Amy Poehler, good for her, not for me. Right. Like, yeah, I can I can just say that's great for you and not for me or not for me. But if you want to do it, OK, like, know, just stopping the judgment piece of what you're wearing, what you what you know, if you're doing makeup or not doing makeup, how many wrinkles do you have? I think that's hard to do. But it's so important for us to start forcing some change in the ways that we are in this double standard of aging.
Ana Xavier (29:43.202)
Yes.
Ana Xavier (29:51.982)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (30:06.986)
Yes. And it's funny because you said something that I was like, yeah, like it's sometimes easier to, cause we are, we can be mean to others because we're being mean to ourselves, right? Or we're being hard on others because we are really hard on ourselves. And sometimes I think that it's even thinking on another layer is like, okay, I have an nephew, but if I had a niece, I would not want her to have specific belief systems that I already think they are harmful.
So sometimes thinking even ahead about like, I would not want a niece or whoever to think the things that I think are normalized in society today still about aging. So can I stop that? Can I stop talking about those things? Can I stop reinforcing those behaviors and talking about those things as normalized? And sometimes the younger generation, sometimes it's not just us is like, okay, like I don't want that person to...
be hurt, but like it's taking that one step is like them and me and others is just, I see a lot of people sometimes, a lot of women talking very positively about aging and growing and like you're strong and like, that's something that is mentioned, right? Like your, your body is strong. It's not that you need to be thin. Like being a bigger, having a bigger body means you're stronger. not, you know, a bad thing. So how much of that is.
our conversations with younger ones, but really living and embodying and doing that work consistently. Cause I, lot of people stop. It's like, I'm talking to you. But then when it's me, it's a different standard. When I'm talking to the women next to me, it's a different standard. And it's again, a work of deconstruction, even though we did not build a system as you said it, but I find that.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:41.908)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (32:00.694)
We don't question why we do it. And if we were to start questioning why we do it, we would realize how harmful it is to everyone. And even to ourselves, mean, just the work that we do. Again, it's such a big leap from looking at our hands. like, my gosh, I saw two spots. That means my hands are aging, right? But if a friend tells you that, you go, don't be silly. That's beautiful. That's nothing, blah, But it's...
Becky Mollenkamp (32:08.48)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:28.48)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (32:29.654)
It's such an internal work that we have to do and it's just not easy that you go, okay, slap, slap, I'm gonna be like magic powder, like this is not gonna be an issue anymore. It's just continuing deconstruction of it all because again, you've had 50, know, maybe 40 years or 45 years on this earth that you were told this narrative. So to expect to deconstruct that,
in five years, 10 years, 20 years is like unrealistic. So sometimes like again, going back to the, we're gonna do progress. We're not gonna make perfect progress, but like consistently reminding ourselves like we lived a whole life of these standards. And so, yeah, I.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:13.536)
And I think like most women, those standards were very clearly reinforced by my own mother. And I love you, mom, if you listen. that is just because that's how it was. And continue to be. I mean, my mom is 70 something. I won't say her age because she is a woman of certain age and probably doesn't want me saying, but she's 70 something. And she still like dives her hair. Although I think she started. She may have finally stopped that. And again, no judgment on it. But she she puts so much
emphasis on external appearances still and like trying to fit into this narrative of what beauty is when the truth is that standard never included somebody who's 70 plus. It doesn't even include me at 50 plus, right? And in some ways aging out quote unquote aging out of that beauty narrative that she so clearly illustrates inside of this, there's such power in it because then it frees you from even trying to do it.
I can't perform it anymore. She talks about femininity is this thing that we perform. And I felt I feel that in my bones. Like I'm somebody who, as I began, begun to really think about gender and gender expression, it's more that I realize I don't necessarily feel like a woman in that anytime I've tried to be what I thought a woman was supposed to be, it was me wearing a mask and performing femininity. And that's why I use both she and they pronouns, because both sort of speak to my experience. I am perceived as a woman.
I'm oppressed as a woman. There are things about womanhood that I feel innately and believe are me. But there's so much of what we expect women to do, behave, show up, look like, that to me feels like a performance when I'm doing it that I don't fully feel like that encompasses who I am. So I thought it was interesting that that piece around like performing femininity really fits into modern discussions around gender expression too.
Ana Xavier (35:06.22)
Yeah, and again, how are we by not taking a second to really question our behaviors or how are we like feeding into this narrative? And to me, was a part that, let me try to remember, that I thought it was really interesting about the finding purpose and like the career. Like to me, it's like, yeah, again, like what is a role that a woman plays in society?
that you have an expiration date in your knowledge, right? And men, as they grow older, they grow, it's sage, it's this and that. And women, you're like, yeah, now you're out of here. And again, performing that femininity, like, okay, like if you don't, if you work in an office or whatever, you have all of these qualities that you're supposed to have. Otherwise you're shoved to the side as not like a female leader. And it's just not something that...
Again, it made me think about a lot of those references were very, of course, like not applied to today, but the role of the purpose that like even in having agency in your own choices, having agency in being a person of influence, that there was like one section there that I thought it was really interesting is like women cannot have influence or something like that. And I was like, yeah, it hurt me to my on my bones, but
Yeah, like if you're not a vessel for life, what are you doing? so, especially for you, because it feels like you had a lot of chapters, right? And so much of like what women are expected to have, like you're not supposed to evolve. There's a lot of this idea that you're supposed to be quiet to do your role and all. And as we evolve through many of our...
doubts on age, like are we achieving enough? Am I on path? And the goalpost keeps getting further and further ahead as we progress, right? As we have many different identities, like how do we cope with what feels to be a woman? it's just like, am I checking all the boxes as a 30 year old woman, as a 40 year old woman? like, it just.
Ana Xavier (37:18.914)
kind of realizing that what actually is constant is just thinking that we're not enough and we're not doing it right.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:25.17)
my God, for sure. Yeah, it's funny because I have had chapters, but for the longest time, up until about your age, so until about 35, I was doing the good girl journey of life. I use quotes, good girl. But I think most women can feel that in their bones of what it means to be a good girl. We're supposed to be quiet, we're not supposed to cause problems, we're supposed to do all the things that are expected of us, we should go to a good school, get a good husband, get a good job, have...
Ana Xavier (37:39.47)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:54.028)
great kids, become a wonderful grandma and die. Right? Like this is that journey we're supposed to follow. So, and now our journey, maybe compared to this 1972 story, does include more around that professional experience, but it doesn't free us from those parts around you better have good kids, you better be a good grandma, right? Because if you're not, you're not doing your quote unquote right. You're not being the good girl. Like you're not being a good girl by saying, I'm going to be child free by choice. You're bucking the system, right? But for a long time, I was playing that I was in the system.
And it was around my mid thirties where I was like, I've done all the things I was supposed to do as a good girl and I'm not happy. And that's really hard to like confront. Like, why am I not happy? I did everything that they said I should do. And it's because our happiness was never part of that equation. I didn't get that until it happened to me. And I realized, me doing all these things I was supposed to do wasn't about my own happiness. It was about being in service of this system of maintaining male dominance of
Ana Xavier (38:41.198)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:52.328)
you know, preserving capitalism and all of the things. And then when I finally confronted that was like, this doesn't work for me. That's where I blew up my life and have had chapter sense of trying to figure out then what does it look like to be happy at whatever age I am. And that's it was it's been a journey. But I also know that part of like playing the part and doing the things. And I think we do it because we sort of get this message that if we do all that, at some point we'll be paid off with such joy.
Ana Xavier (39:20.352)
Yeah, the joy will come later, right? And there was one thing that I don't remember reading about, but it was like ambition. I don't remember, maybe I skip it, but I don't remember like reading anything about ambition, because like, are you supposed to? Not for women, babes. Yep. It's interesting that there's no reference to that. And like, what does ambition look like, right? Like I find that
Becky Mollenkamp (39:35.658)
for women.
Ana Xavier (39:47.426)
there's all of these studies surrounding design and how everything in society, everything in this capitalistic society, nothing is made for the female body. All the science studies are done through the male experience exactly. And why? Because it adds variables, it adds complexity.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:05.77)
White male.
Ana Xavier (40:15.326)
And so many of the things that, yeah, maybe it's hard to look for what happiness looks like, what happiness, but also like personal fulfillment looks like, because as women, we're so nuanced. There's so, so many different layers that it gets too complicated, right, to think about. So let's not even go there.
how much of our own dreams we hold back from, right? Because we're like, it feels overwhelming to think about what the possibilities could be for me. But when I look at what's the path expected from, you know, these 1970s story article, it's kind of like, OK, this is such a clear view. There's one path. You grow up from a child, you
then become a woman that can bear a child and then you care for other children and then that's it. And so much of this, I find that a lot of women struggle with finding identity or finding purpose or finding fulfillment is because we're still lags so much from showing these narratives, these options, because there's so much potential because we're such complex and amazing, beautiful beings that
How many women are not even going there because it just feels like I don't know what it looks like. So I can't, that can happen, right? Like I can't imagine it to be possible.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:47.752)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:53.568)
For sure. myself in that journey totally was when it came to that place of this, I couldn't not face anymore that I wasn't happy. And why wasn't I? Because I had everything I was supposed to want. And that was a really dark and scary time for me because yeah, I had no imagination. I didn't know what it could be. I just knew it wasn't this and that's really hard. And I see it with my clients all the time too. With women, when you invite them to explore, what do you want?
So often they don't know. And especially when they start making these, they'll often say like, well, I want more time with my family. But if we really dig, they're just saying the things they've been told they should want and not what they actually really want. Because we're so afraid of how we'll be perceived. None of us wants to be perceived as a bad girl, a bad woman. But really, it's us still in that young age of like, be a good girl. How often we're told that. And boys, meanwhile, ambition. They're taught to be ambitious, to go for it, to do.
Ana Xavier (42:28.782)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:49.16)
You know, wild things. Boys are just being boys when they break their leg because they jumped off the thing. But a girl be a good girl. Don't do that. Right. And that carries into it. Right. You're precious. Right. And know the employees is a very different experience. so ambition with women, it actually becomes a bad word. she's so ambitious. Right. Like, I think we saw that with Kamala. People are saying that about Kamala Harris, that she was too ambitious. Well, yeah, she's running for president. Hell, yeah, she's ambitious. And I love an ambitious woman. But we have
Ana Xavier (42:55.106)
Yeah, don't hurt yourself, don't you damage yourself, you're good.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:17.792)
made it so that we that that is another bad word. It's just so interesting. know, she in here, too, she talked about beauty as a moral judgment, the way that we make like if you have wrinkles, somehow that says something bad about you. Right. If you're not dying your hair, it's like you've you've given up. You're lazy. don't like all of these things that we ascribe as like moral judgments of a person based on how they look. I mean, we also do that with fatness. Right. Like fat is a moral judgment.
Ana Xavier (43:26.83)
Yes.
Ana Xavier (43:46.488)
Yeah, fat phobia is a big thing for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:48.284)
Exactly. And it's interesting. I thought that part was really good because just this morning I was leaving school, my son's school, dropping him off. There's a bunch of kids there. I remember walking out and this is me being vulnerable thinking, I wonder at what point the kids are going to say, your mom's fat, because this is what kids do. And I was like, would my son be able to do what I would want him to do? I don't know yet. But the answer would be, uh-huh. And she has brown hair. Or, yep, and she wears glasses. Like as in, yeah. And so that is just
a piece of what she is and who she is. But all of that is just the body that she's in. It's not who she is, right? I don't know if you could do that, but I remember thinking that this morning. And then when I was reading this, it's the same thing around the ways that we like, I hope if his friends say your mom's so old that he would say, yeah, yeah. And she wears glasses and she's, know, like, right. Like, and? But we make it as if that is now somehow a put down of me.
Ana Xavier (44:37.24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:44.17)
But why is my age or my body size or the wrinkles I on my face, any of that, has nothing to do with who I am or a moral judgment on my character.
Ana Xavier (44:54.414)
Right? There were so many. Well, one, you know, thank you for sharing. That's such one of the things that it's very intimate. It's one of those moments, especially in school, a lot of kids do not have filters. Everybody comes with their preconceived notions, right? Like you never know what the conversations at home are. And it's definitely a different because it's one thing when you hear a stranger, but when it's like
your kid or your friend, your kid's friend is just like a different take. And again, it's the expectations of society, but what does that mean? And we would always hope that we're raising the best possible generation of children, right? But the reality is that there's so much that still bleeds through so much. I, yeah, I think about that a lot as well.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:38.976)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (45:51.884)
the ideas of why. If we go back to medieval times, having more body mass was awesome. It meant that you were wealthy and you could afford food. Yeah, and it's just like how many paintings of beautiful women laying on, half naked on a chair in the gardens. And I'm like...
Becky Mollenkamp (46:06.154)
Right, well fed and wealthy, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:11.978)
There's last date women. Right.
Ana Xavier (46:18.702)
How down the path of life did we decide or that's too much or like, being revealing is showing your ankles, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:28.34)
Well, I highly recommend the book Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings because it draws these very clear parallels when you ask how it's rooted in racism as is so much, right? Because of different body types that were allowed quote unquote inside of different cultures. And as people began to enslave other humans and African cultures where those body shapes were considered beautiful and normal, right? Then it became this thing of how do we make
this person, and she talks about this too, about how can we turn humans into objects and the way we objectify women that allows our own version of enslavement, right? By forced labor through having children and raising children, caretaking and all of that. How do we do that to humans that we want to enslave? Well, we make them, we demonize them, we make them, we turn them into something that we revile. And so that body shape then became part of that narrative of this is how we start to make these people, this group of people.
something that we discuss that are disgusting to us, right? That we think is something that we look down on so that we can in order to do this, like slave people. So books really good at drawing those lines and helping to understand that. and speaking of like, this is sort of similar time about indigenous cultures and things like that going back a long way. I thought for 1972, I was pretty impressed that she made those back talk about like how an indigenous culture's time wasn't even a thing.
Right? Aging wasn't a thing. People didn't think in terms of this linear time and long time and no one asked her age. People didn't even know their age. And she talked about age as a social construct. And I was like, yeah, I know beauty is a social construct. I know gender is a social, like all these things are social constructs. I hadn't really thought about aging, even though I know time is a social construct. was like, well, aging is also just a social construct construct. the
judgments and assessments we place on it are because of this agreed social contract that we've all created around aging. I thought that was really interesting that she included that.
Ana Xavier (48:29.698)
Yeah, and I never thought about it like that. something that I was going to mention earlier that I was like, you know what is even weirder is that as women tend to live more, like longer lives than men, how much illogical, how illogical is this process about like, when you're supposed to be doing things? Yes, yes, yes, biological clock, blah, blah. But at the same time, it's like,
Becky Mollenkamp (48:41.054)
Ana Xavier (48:55.64)
This makes no sense. Like as women, experience so much of our lives and so many studies have come out recently saying that women at their 60s are their happiest. And as like, I think it's like moving from 60 onward, you continue to say that those are your happiest times because again, I'm gonna be so mean right now. was gonna, go ahead, go ahead, cause mine is dumb.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:14.432)
Do have a theory for why? Because I have a theory for why.
My theory is because you stop giving a shit what men think and you stop centering men and you stop prioritizing men. And often your husbands die and you're finally allowed to live a life that is about you and women. I mean, we just don't get that or on the whole, obviously, but like culturally, we are not intended to live lives that are about us. We see it just in the different appearance and expectations around parenting roles. Men are expected to live a life that is theirs. And the family is sort of this
part that adds to it, but it isn't the life. Whereas women, that is expected to be your life, is caring for everyone else. You're not expected to live a life for you.
Ana Xavier (49:56.758)
Right. Yes. And yeah, that's what I was going to say. Men are out of the equation, therefore they're like, I can be who I want to be.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:05.906)
Men think we live for them and in fact, we live better without them. Like just science, like it's proven women are happier and live longer when they don't have a male partner.
Ana Xavier (50:16.717)
And isn't sad that like we only get to that conclusion when women are there like, not at the end of life, but like on their the last third section of their life when they're like, kind of feels like crazy that we just got to this like conclusion now. And yeah, I mean, when
Becky Mollenkamp (50:26.334)
Yeah, the final act.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:33.152)
I know, why can't we have that wisdom at 20? Like, why couldn't I have known in my 20s that I did, that I, I mean, you just think about what a different life you would have led, but obviously I think you have to get there through lived experience.
Ana Xavier (50:45.174)
Yeah, that and to have more, I definitely think about like really questioning like, what are we consuming? What are we looking through the lens and what judgment are we passing? Right. And there was a point that I was thinking about and that I kind of forgot. it was around, it was around like when you're looking around like the purpose of life and all.
When we're thinking about women, there's so many women they're saying today, because again, there's more examples out there. There's more and more women saying that they want to raise a family by themselves, that they do not want men in the picture at all. And it's such an extreme side of like, yeah, like raising a family with someone else and raising a family by yourself. And it rejects that expectation.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:27.508)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (51:43.146)
in such a radical way that is fascinating that so many women are now saying that they do not want to have children with men. They, yes, okay, give me the good so I can make the deed. But they're envisioning a life that they've been told always through time, you cannot raise a family by yourself. And they're like, I will and I want to. And it's fascinating, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:57.472)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:04.64)
Mm-hmm.
Well, yes, for sure, because women are delaying the decision to have children. More women are choosing not to have children. And then more women are choosing to have children without men. And this is just, again, we're talking about the heteronormative sort of experience of women, although that doesn't just include heteronormative women who are not having children. this piece was speaking to women. But I also love the way it explores gender. just to be clear, even though it's
about women, I think there is some gender expansiveness inside of it, even if it doesn't explicitly say that. We're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you one more thing, especially now knowing your husband is significantly older than you, because she talked a lot about, and I have written about, men being with much younger women. And there is such a clear double standard that remains to this day where men are not only allowed, but like encouraged and cheered on for being with women who are 20, 30, 50. Bill Belichick's
Ana Xavier (52:35.094)
Yes.
Ana Xavier (52:47.086)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (52:55.758)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:58.624)
girlfriend, whatever she is now is like something like 50 years younger than him. Like it is, and this is so common and men are having babies in their seventies with these 25 year old women and stuff. And it's not to necessarily judge it on itself, but the double standard is we see very few examples of that happening with older women and younger men. And when we do there, it is almost always made into a joke, into something that's of ridicule, that's, know, mocked or whatever.
I'm curious how that section about the double standard around age differences in relationships struck you as somebody who's in a relationship with someone who's substantially older.
Ana Xavier (53:35.16)
Well, definitely. One thing that I wanted to add to your point is like, and sometimes in that scenario, women are thinking that, they're being taken advantage. So they are infantilized for that decision. It's like, surely he has a spell on her. What is even that about? Well, I think that I grew up with that same very strong narrative. So was like, OK, checks.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:47.488)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (54:03.062)
I mean, but my grandma actually, her husband and her, he was much older as well. So even though that was never like talked about, that's something that I was like, okay. But I felt, I felt it a little, okay, you know what? I did not read that section. I tried to just like make it up an answer on the spot.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:19.2)
It's okay!
it I'm just curious. It's okay if you didn't read it, that's sort of the gist of it. Does it bring anything up for you of feeling like, I mean, I'm curious with your own experience of just have being in that kind of relationship. If you see that double standard happening, if you feel that in any cute way, or if it's not really something that you notice. Yeah.
Ana Xavier (54:38.03)
Okay. Yeah. So that part can, be.
So actually, funny enough, my husband does not look his age. He looks much younger. And in spirit, he's like the wisest man yet such. Sometimes I joke that he has more energy and he's like more up to the times than I am. And so there are a lot of times when I feel that we're very different, especially because he's a French man, right? So it's like not only the age, but culturally, there's that big difference.
Um, but at the same time, I think that we're very connected because I'm a little bit of an old soul, but at the same time, it's like growing as a person. do, um, people like, because he looks younger. That doesn't, um, that was never like something that I felt like judgment on or something, because when you meet him, you're like, no way you're 52, right? Um, which again.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:35.05)
Yeah. And you, with your gray hair, you may also be perceived sometimes as being older than you are. So then that may collapse some of that age difference in perception.
Ana Xavier (55:41.101)
right?
Ana Xavier (55:45.012)
Yeah, and also we've been married for nine years, so but even before I had like gray hair. So but again, he looked way younger, too. So I think that we were the exception. Physically, we do not look that different. But we had a lot of funny situations where my friends, our friends sometimes forget his age and they would make comments about like older guys. And then they were like, sorry, Diego.
We don't mean you, you're young and hard. So that was always like really interesting because they like backtracking really hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:20.736)
It does bring up the point though of age being a number as people say age is only a number that it's more about how you feel, how you express yourself, right? Like when people say, and I know you said this and it's not to call you out or anything because people say all the time and so do I sometimes, but people will say like, you don't look your age. And I always like, you, and I know women take pride in that when someone will say,
You don't look 50. You don't look your age. A lot of times people are like, thanks. Like, wow, thank you. Right. And I used to be that way. So I get it. And I am more and more trying very hard to say, actually, I look exactly like what 50 looks like because this is 50. I am 50. So this is what 50 looks like. Right. And that's what it looks like on me. And it looks different on someone else because this like idea that the compliment is to say someone looks younger is so icky. Even though we all like I do it. I still sometimes feel that like.
Ana Xavier (56:55.682)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:11.284)
Yeah, I do look younger, but I'm trying really hard. That's part of that reconditioning of my brain to try and say, Nope, this is, I look 50. I'm 50. That's what 50 looks like. I want to be able to own that and be, take pride in that and be okay with that. Instead of always trying to aim for how can I look, be perceived as younger as if youth is again, this like moral, like it's an achievement. It's genetics, it's luck. And sometimes it's a lot of money and time put into care. And none of those are things that I, you know, we,
Ana Xavier (57:15.534)
Yeah.
Ana Xavier (57:37.484)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:40.232)
The first two, have no control over the genetics and the luck and the money is about privilege and the time to put in is also about privilege. So like it's only things you don't have control over or that reflect your privilege are the only ways that you get to like say you're younger than you are. so anyway, just a reminder, like age is what we make it to be. And so if someone says you look young free age, I want to encourage people to say, I look exactly this age.
Ana Xavier (58:05.006)
Yes. And yeah, when I was reading it, I was like, oh yeah, like that is so true. I mean, it changes so much. what control do we have over like zero? It's not that I can go like, yeah, I'm made of bit, bit like we can't, but yeah, I keep seeing that idea of talking about like, oh, you don't look your age, but yeah, like tell me what 50 looks like, what 40 looks like. Cause you have, you know, people say now that Jen, Jen Z and
Becky Mollenkamp (58:28.062)
Mm-hmm.
Ana Xavier (58:33.802)
and younger people look older because of all of these different circumstances. Yeah, stress alone. And so I really want to be more intentional about talking about it like that and about like, yeah, like, this is what I look like 30 because that's what 30 people like, again, you can have two people that had very similar lives. One looks air quotes.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:40.256)
Yeah, stress.
Ana Xavier (59:02.772)
looks like they could be younger and some people could be older and they have the same upbringing and it's like, okay, why does that matter? Like, why is it? Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:10.558)
And why are we only complimenting the one that looks younger as if they did something, right? It's that moral judgment. In the same way we do that with people who are in thinner bodies or people who are in a larger body and get into a thinner body. The compliment is around the thinner body. And what is that telling everybody when generally most people have very little control again, it goes back to some of those same things around luck and genetics. And then the things like if you're using a ZipBuck or something and no judgment on that, but there's privilege inside of a lot of those things as well. Also the privilege to be able to eat a diet that's just full of
produce and things. So like when we sit here and cast moral judgment on something people have very little control over, whether it's our body shape or our age, what is that saying to the people around us? So yeah, I think that's so important. Thank you for this. I know we're up against the end of time and we could probably talk forever. I love talking about aging now that I'm 50. It's like definitely the forefront of my mind. So I appreciate you having the conversation with me.
Ana Xavier (01:00:02.776)
Thank you, thank you for having me. This was amazing, thanks.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:06.037)
and one thing I didn't ask, because I usually do, is do you recommend the piece and to whom?
Ana Xavier (01:00:11.622)
my sister. I will definitely recommend it to my sister because,
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:13.824)
didn't mean specifically, I, but your sister will definitely get it. in general, yeah. What kinds of people do you think should read it or do you recommend it?
Ana Xavier (01:00:19.776)
sure. Like to like people.
Hmm. I definitely recommend it. I think that it's so important to draw parallels to where we are today and remember and remind ourselves that yes, history is cyclical, but why is it cyclical? Right. So we for there again is because we're not doing a good enough job at erasing those behaviors or shifting those behaviors. So I'd say if anyone is thinking is especially if you're questioning yourself, like, why am I unhappy? Why are things not working out?
like read that one because you'll be like, okay, a lot of this makes sense because this is learned behavior and not something that like makes sense at all. It's just societal conditioning. So definitely recommend it.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:06.974)
Yeah. I recommend it to you. was super quotable. And I will say it clearly was written through a white woman's lens. So I think it's important to note that. I think for a white woman and a white woman in the 70s, she did a reasonably good job of bringing up things like class and race. There could have been more. So I just want to be clear about that. But on the whole, I thought it was really good, too. So thank you for doing this with me. It was so exciting to talk about this topic and with somebody who's so young. Wink, wink.
Ana Xavier (01:01:34.99)
Thank you, Becky. It was awesome.