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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
There is no way in hell that I'm gonna be manipulated by you anymore, and you really do get your power back when
Voiceover Artist:you In a world of hurt and pain, we find our way to break the chain, a caring heart, a guiding light. Lead us through the darkest night. With preservation in our soul, we'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKenney and Padida Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Padida, my friend. How are you doing?
Padideh Jafari:I'm doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney:Wonderful. You're the vacation girl.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. I was on vacation for two weeks in Palm Beach, Florida, so it was kind of nice. I have to be on
Jon McKenney:I'll tell you what I know about Florida. Florida doesn't suck. Love it there.
Padideh Jafari:The weather was great. We had really good lunches and dinners with my husband's clients, and I got to see my sister-in-law, so it was really, really a great time.
Jon McKenney:And there are other people you saw as well while you were Now there we ought to preface this. I mean, you're in Cali, you know, right near LA, so seeing celebrities and the like is not unusual for you, but you saw more in Florida than you did in Cali.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. It was actually amazing. Don't wanna mention any names, but, yes, I got to have have a couple celebrity sightings.
Jon McKenney:Sounds like a good time. Sounds like a good time. Well, I've been holding down the fort here in Georgia. We have absolutely beautiful weather for November. It's been eighties in the middle of the middle of November, which has been amazing.
Jon McKenney:All the trees. I drove up to the mountains a couple of weeks ago, and there's a really nice ride up we call Blood Mountain Run. But I went up to the top of Blood Mountain, and it was absolutely just so beautiful to see all the leaves. It was a I have an old Miata and had a top down and it was just fantastic. I couldn't ask for better.
Padideh Jafari:Wow. That sounds like a great ride, and I'm really excited today about our topic.
Jon McKenney:This one could be called taboo a little bit.
Padideh Jafari:I think so. I think it is taboo.
Jon McKenney:I don't know that I've ever seen somebody do a podcast kind of specifically on this. And the fact I'm a boy and you're a girl, I think is going to lend some good insight to this. And what we want to talk about today is we want to talk about how narcissists approach sex and the impact of the way they approach sex on relationship. Al, you've talked some about your narcissist ex and some of his issues. I've talked a little bit about mine as well, but we really haven't kind of done a deep dive on it.
Jon McKenney:There's a reason well, there's a reason we kind of haven't done it. One, it a little taboo. But more than that, there's a reason to go do it. The reason to go have this conversation is because it really is one of the things that most impacts a relationship with a narcissist. If you're married to one or in a relationship with one, this ends up being one of the most problematic spots.
Jon McKenney:I saw a saw a famous motivational speaker once, and he said this. He said, sex is only 10% of a marriage, but it's the top 10%. And it kind of is true. And when it goes upside down, particularly in relationship with a narcissist, I mean, everything goes upside down with them, but this is a place of real wounding and real damage and real abuse for people who are the victims and married to the narcissist or in relationship with them.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I agree. I mean, they definitely use sex as a way to control, manipulate, and do make you do things that maybe you're not comfortable with. So they definitely use it as a weapon against you.
Jon McKenney:I think, do you know something as we kind of talk through this and we even jot some notes about some things? I think I'm looking at my page here. Those are the first two notes on my page. And and I think that is the overarching premise in absolutely everything we have to say today about how narcissists approach sex, and that sex should be a loving act, but sex for a narcissist is not a loving act and is always controlling and always manipulative and is used as a weapon to muscle you around.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, you're not really you are to a narcissist, you're either a possession or property. You're not really a person that they cherish.
Jon McKenney:And It's like slavery. It really it really is is is an almost a kind of slavery. They think of you as a slave or a pet or something like that to manipulate and push around.
Padideh Jafari:Right. So you can see that if that's the way that they view you, then in the bedroom, that carries through to the bedroom, right? So they're not treating you any differently than they did outside of the bedroom. And so, you know, it's really difficult for victims of narcissistic abuse to sort of understand this and then heal from it. Because now something has happened.
Padideh Jafari:Not only are they being yelled at and manipulated emotionally, they're also being sexually abused.
Jon McKenney:Yes. And ultimately, the way they approach sexual relationship with their victims and with anybody, right, they choose to have sex with, is upside down of of the way most people in a loving relationship approach it. And, you know, I I I do think that in in in a sexual relationship, it's hard to hide. And and narcissists are always hiding, and it's very difficult for them to hide in sexual relationship their lack of love for you and their disdain for you, perhaps even hatred of you or jealousy of you. These kinds of things are very, very hard to hide.
Jon McKenney:And I think ultimately, these kinds of things come out in sexual relationship very, very quickly, particularly after the the love bombing stage is over. I would say that that by and large, initially, most narcissists upfront are reasonably sexual to try and lure you in. I know that was the case in my relationship with my ex. There were places we didn't go for sure because, again, I was raised a Christian, and there were things I was certainly not going to go do. But she was she was very sexual upfront until I put a ring on her finger, and then it it kinda ended.
Jon McKenney:And so so sex can be used during a love bombing phase, particularly to lure you in, to draw you in, and to bring you into a relationship. There's a semblance of intimacy in it because it it's supposed to be an intimate act. It's supposed to be a loving act. But even from the beginning, they're using that to manipulate you.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, nothing is sacred to a narcissist. So this act of lovemaking is not sacred to them. And also narcissists are routinely cheaters. So they will have relationships with you if they're dating you and somebody else that you might not even know about.
Padideh Jafari:And in a marriage, they they tend to cheat. So it's not like a one to one person act. For them, the married narcissist is still single in their mind. And so how can there be any how can it be sacred to them when they're doing it with multiple people?
Jon McKenney:And sacred is a really good word for I mean, how how sexual relationship should go between two people. It's it's meant to be kind of a very loving and a very intimate act, and you come in with these expectations of what sex should be like, and it's not, ultimately. You wind up getting in and it's it's kinda other than than what you expected. Or during the love bombing phase, they're very engaged with you, very sexual. And then once they hook you, that kind of ends.
Jon McKenney:And And we should say this too, because of their lack of sacredness in their approach to it, they don't really care who they experience it with as far as they're concerned. Hope that that intimate act and by the way, when you're marrying, you're kind of saying, I'm only going to have sex with this person. And they're like, they don't care. You know? It's like, I go do laundry with somebody else.
Jon McKenney:I go to restaurant with somebody else. Why can't I have sex with somebody else? So this lack of sacredness in it, this lack of love in it really does become a problem because oftentimes narcissists will cheat as I know that was the case in your particular situation.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, it wasn't just cheating with other women, it was also cheating with men. And so when I knew that and I found that out, that I mean, talk about the pain that I had to experience because I finally said to myself, there's nothing I can do because this person doesn't really want me and they don't really know themselves. And so, it's really demoralizing and that's why it took me another eight years before I met my husband because I didn't really even trust myself to make another decision on remarriage. And so I believe that narcissists are cheaters.
Padideh Jafari:If they're not cheating with the opposite sex, they're cheating you somehow with gambling. They're cheating with alcohol, drugs.
Jon McKenney:Or cheating emotionally. Right? So there's emotional cheating too.
Padideh Jafari:Right. I mean, live this double life. And whether you know it or not, sometimes people don't know it until after the fact, after they leave the narcissist. And then somehow they find out that the narcissist did all these things behind their back. And so, yeah, there was absolutely, this person just didn't cherish our relationship.
Padideh Jafari:I obviously had to be very monogamous, but he could decide not to be, and he wouldn't even let me know. So it wasn't like I knew this and I could consent to it. Everything was behind my back.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. And and and if you confront them on this, they will often pretend it didn't happen, regardless of the kind of cheating. I know I know my ex I think I've shared on several occasions. You know, I had these rare moments of honesty with her, and one of them was where she confessed to me that she had had an obsession with an ex boyfriend and was looking all over for him and stuff like that. Was almost, you know, looking for him in the in the stores and, you know, wanted to run into him and even talked about going to visit his place of employment and perhaps grew a conscience over it and told me about this.
Jon McKenney:I prayed for her and loved on her. Said, This is something we can work through. And then two days later, goes, I don't even know what you're talking about. That conversation never happened. So they approach these kinds of things with a ton of denial if you do confront them.
Jon McKenney:And, you know, you talk about your ex and his interests. I I think that that narcissists bring to the table extremes in sexual behavior almost no matter what.
Padideh Jafari:I agree. I actually put one of the notes that I made was they're hot and cold type of people. And so exactly what you're saying, extremes. They're either hot or cold. And it's like, you don't know day by day by day what what version of them you're getting.
Jon McKenney:Mhmm. And they're taking you on a ride one way or the other. They can be taking you on a ride that's very sexual, but also cheating. You know, I'd spoken to a guy not long ago who was working in the home while his wife was she had a job where she traveled to all kinds of places. And he got a credit card notice on his phone that was to someplace local and it gave the business name and he found out that it was a brothel and that his wife was actually in this brothel while he was home watching the kids.
Jon McKenney:So there are these extremes. They can either be hypersexual and experiencing all this with other people and cheating on you. And then I think the covert narcissist on the other end who's trying to protect their persona more than anything else go the other way and they are the opposite of sexual. They are they're kinda not sexual at all. And that was more the case with my ex than anything else, particularly the last ten years of our marriage.
Jon McKenney:She was like, yeah, I'm done. You know? And there was nothing that could move her from it. She wasn't she never brought interest to it one way or the other. There was never a desire for it.
Jon McKenney:And I think it it for her, it was probably another place where she felt like she had to hide.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. You know, also I wanna mention too that when you break up with the ex, if you ever get the courage to actually do it and break up with the narcissist, what they will do again is they'll use sex as a way of connecting back to you. So that's why, you know, they'll say, oh, you know, I love you. They'll take you to dinners and love bomb you again, and then use sex to connect you again. And for women, that is an emotional connection that you have with the person and then that loop starts over again.
Padideh Jafari:So that's why I we stress so much on this show to go no contact because if you go no contact
Jon McKenney:And no that means no sex. Right? Right. Either. Right?
Jon McKenney:No contact means no sex.
Padideh Jafari:No communication, no sex, not seeing them, not viewing their social media, you know, shutting everything down. If you get triggered by them and if they come back through DMs, you know, direct messages, then shut down your social media. It's okay And to do we give you permission to do that because you almost have to go into this stealth mode and become invisible for them to just move on from you. And mind you, I've been divorced fifteen years and my ex still sends me DMs. Recently when I was in Florida, he sent me one through Facebook.
Padideh Jafari:And I don't even use And my he said something like he was traveling through Palm Springs and it made him think of me. And so I read it and I just And blocked him so what I'm trying to tell you is that John and I have been through this and we know what a taboo subject this is because maybe your narcissist ex has forced you to do something that you're not comfortable with even talking about. But there is healing once you break off the relationship with them and go no contact.
Jon McKenney:And the only thing they really have to offer sexually, I think, is one of two things. You're being used or you're being abused. It's one of those two things. They're bent through this because, again, it's not a loving act. So they can be hypersexual.
Jon McKenney:They can Hoover you back in. What you're talking about is a Hoover where you may have gone no contact, they're like, Oh, I've lost my control over them. Sex is one of the ways I think they manipulate, in fact, probably one of the greatest ways to try and manipulate their victims back into relationship by offering them sex again, like they love bomb them into the relationship from the beginning. And I know in my particular situation, you know, I'd said earlier that even when we were sexual, it was a very demoralizing experience for me. It was was an absence of love.
Jon McKenney:It was an absence of desire. It was an absence of presence from her. She couldn't talk about it and refused to talk about sexual relationship one way or the other, and eventually just gave it up. Just like, I'm just not going go do this. I can remember trying to negotiate with her through some of this stuff get us a healthier sexual relationship.
Jon McKenney:I even encouraged her to go Amazon and look up some books because I didn't feel like she kind of owned her own sexuality either. And I was I was looking for anything that might make our sexual relationship better. And she said, you know what? I really need to go do that, and I'll go do that. And a week later, I said, hey.
Jon McKenney:Did you get on Amazon and look for books? And she goes, what do you mean? And I said, well, we were talking last week about books and sex. And she goes, oh, I don't know what you're talking about. And literally had, like, that conversation vanished from her head.
Jon McKenney:And after maybe a half an hour is more conversation, she goes, oh, oh, yeah. I guess I did say I would go do that. And and went to Amazon and found some things and, you know, ultimately, it it wasn't helpful it wasn't helpful anyways. But even if they're sexual with you, it is an exercising using you and follows the basic premise of their whole life, which is they take, but they don't give. And you will feel, if you're even in a relationship with a narcissist sexually, you will feel emptier after you start or after you finish than when you started.
Jon McKenney:It's an emotionally emptying experience, and you will never feel like you've been met with love and desire from the other person the way it should probably be.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Because intimacy involves you being vulnerable.
Jon McKenney:And present.
Padideh Jafari:And present. And, you know, and they are incapable of that. So exactly what you said I had in my notes. They're either there to use you or abuse you. And it is really, really difficult for the victim to just even hear this and acknowledge it.
Padideh Jafari:But there is healing on the other end because I will tell you that there is healing once you separate from these types of people.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Yeah. I know I know one of the things that I also wrestled through particularly with her because I, again, I felt like I'm a guy, you know, sex is the kind of in the top 10% of things in marriage. So this was something I was constantly trying to work on with her. And there was absolutely zero initiation from her whatsoever in sexual relationship.
Jon McKenney:Zero. None. It was it was it was all on me. She just did not want to participate. And if I did initiate, it was always rejection.
Jon McKenney:So I can remember having a conversation with her and I had this multiple times where I would say, You have to throw me a bone here. You you you don't want to initiate. And if I initiate, then you immediately say no. So so what's our solution here? You you clearly don't want to do this.
Jon McKenney:You won't respond to me and my initiation and you don't wanna initiate. You have no you have seemingly no desire for this, so I don't know how to go fix this. So after what was probably hours of arguing, she would go and again, I don't know whether she'd say this just to shut down the conversation. Well, she probably did, but she was not interested in change. But she go, you know what?
Jon McKenney:You're right. I should really be in a place where I respond to your initiation, and and I'm gonna make a change. And I'd walk away and go, oh, oh, okay. You know? I'd and operate off of that where I'd kind of been so beat down.
Jon McKenney:I wasn't initiating because it was always a no. I thought, alright. Well, then I need to go have the courage to go initiate. So the next day, I would go and initiate and I say, do do you want to or approach her sexually? And she go she'd get angry at me.
Jon McKenney:No. I don't want to do it. I I I should be able to tell you no whenever I feel like it. I'm going, did we not have this conversation just yesterday? And this was a spin in our relationship where I was constantly having this same conversation over and over and over again with her, but there was no negotiating with her.
Jon McKenney:And I think that was ultimately part of the problem too. This is something you can't negotiate with with a narcissist either. There's no conversation that's going to make this better. They're gonna go do what they wanna go do. They're gonna go do the path they're headed down.
Jon McKenney:But ultimately, that path is not gonna lead to a healthy sexual relationship. And a healthy relationship with a narcissist is not available because they do not love. And absent of love, you just don't have healthy sexual relationship. And it winds up being demoralizing. It winds up being abusive.
Jon McKenney:It winds up being using. And you feel emptier when you finish than when you started every time. And you're going, What the heck happened here? Even if you're able to go have sex with this person, it's not a loving act. I will tell you that I think most of the men I know who are married to narcissists are with wives who will not be sexual with them, that they are forced to abstain from sex.
Jon McKenney:The way the narcissist approaches it is our marriage dictates that you can't have anybody else, and I don't want you either. So you're left on this island by yourself to go fend for your own fend for yourself with your sexual desires, and that in and of itself is a difficult prospect for a man too. So so they leave you and abandon you in this sexual relationship to yourself when sexual relationship with somebody requires two.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. 100%. Oh my gosh. Every time I hear about your ex, John, I just she sounds so immature, and she sounds like Oh, yeah. You're constantly with a child.
Padideh Jafari:You're like, go get those books on Amazon. I mean, this is a grown woman, you know
Jon McKenney:She would think.
Padideh Jafari:That's had multiple children with you. So it's like, it just always sounds like you are trying to offer solutions and she's like, I just see her like
Jon McKenney:Avoiding them.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Like hiding behind the curtain. Like, I don't know when if if you ever played this game, but when I was a kid, we would hide behind the curtain to play hide and go seek with like, my dad or my mom or my siblings. And I always I just saw a visual of her hiding behind the curtain from you, her husband, you know? The person that she's supposed to be most vulnerable and safe with.
Padideh Jafari:And so Yeah. I don't, you know, I always wonder if narcissists struggle with their own sexuality. I've heard this before on different podcasts that, you know, they are not sure about their own sexuality, so they don't really even enjoy sex with the opposite sex. And so
Jon McKenney:an interesting it's an interesting thought.
Padideh Jafari:And then that's why, you know, they want to be with the opposite sex to have a child. But short of that, they don't really need or want, the opposite sex. So I really, I think we need to do some research on this because I know mine was overt about that. I mean, once I found that out, he could not hide it because I had so much evidence I'd gathered that he just wasn't into women.
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari:But now he's on his third marriage, married to a woman, by the way. But so long story short is I just, you know, I just wanted to say that I feel like you're I just see this visual of your ex just hiding behind a curtain from you. It's
Jon McKenney:interesting you kinda say that. One, today it today would be would have been our thirty third wedding anniversary, which is kinda crazy. You know? I've been been out for five years now, and as I thought about that today, and I thought today would have been our anniversary, and my mind kinda drew back for just a minute. I want you to know that I don't dwell on this stuff at all.
Jon McKenney:The way I feel about my divorce is, woo hoo. I literally jumped for joy when I heard that I was divorced, and there's no turning back. I'm still to this day very glad I did it. But what would have endured what would have taken place today is you would have had her wanting to go celebrate for our anniversary, sitting across the table from somebody she absolutely has no desire to know and no love. And me sitting there going, why the fuck am I here?
Jon McKenney:Because we don't have a relationship. And it was this pretending. Anniversaries and Valentine's Day were always the hardest hardest for me. One, because I I I always struggled to find a card that didn't lie. So Wow.
Jon McKenney:You you go you know, most of the cards are so sappy and so nice, and it's like, I just love you so much because you're always you're always there for me, and I'm going, yep. That's out. And you love me so well. No. That's out.
Jon McKenney:You're a really great person. No. Can't say that. You know? So finding a card that doesn't lie was always a struggle for me, and then sitting across the table, she always wanted to celebrate, celebrate our love, but there wasn't any.
Jon McKenney:So it I felt like we were sitting across the table and pretending in the last couple years, I just told her flat out, we're not doing anything anymore because I'm not gonna sit and pretend we got a relationship when we don't. There's nothing to celebrate here. And and that's how it went. But, you know, today been would thirty three years, and all I've got to say is this, I'm glad I'm divorced.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, thirty three years, I don't know if we've, in the last five years, if we'd even have you here, to be honest with you, the way that your relationship was going. I'd rather, much rather have you here. And for those listening that are just deep in this and you're thinking, there's no way out. I mean, I literally thought there's no way out.
Jon McKenney:Yes.
Padideh Jafari:There's no way I can escape this person. Know, John is a testament and a testimony to you guys that you can get out. I mean, he was married for twenty seven years.
Jon McKenney:My life is exponentially better. It's not what I'd hoped for. It's not what I it's not what I dreamed of, but I've made something of my life. You know, my my friend says this to me all the time. You know, the the greatest thing you can do is to is to have a great life afterwards.
Jon McKenney:And I've certainly strived to go do that and make the most of my life post divorce. And and my life is peaceful. That's more than anything else. I I gotta tell you. My my life is peaceful.
Jon McKenney:And this sex stuff we're talking about, while I'm not in a relationship with anybody right now, I still have peace. I don't have this nonsense going on, this pretending, this I I wanna say this. Narcissists violate sexual relationship one way or the other. I'm married have of the things I'm married to have sex. That was part of the deal.
Jon McKenney:And to go into a relationship with somebody with this understanding that we are are keeping ourselves for each other, and then you put the ring on their finger and they go, no. I don't want to, is is a violation of the marriage covenant. It is a violation of it very egregiously. And it's it's bait and switch. It's you sign up for one thing and they give you another, and it's very hard for you to go manage because your options are, well, I can go cheat, which is not a good option, and we I wouldn't ever recommend that.
Jon McKenney:Or I can go live kind of without sex completely when I'm married for that to be a part of the relationship. It is a complete and total violation of sexual relationship, even not having sex. And a lot of the men I know out there are in that situation, I'm sorry for you. Your options are not good. That's why we talk often about leaving and being on the other side of it like I am right now.
Jon McKenney:I don't have these nonsensical things to go deal with that I had before. And Padida, likewise, she doesn't have these things either to go deal with. She doesn't have a husband who's pursuing other men and pretending he's got a relationship with his wife and thinking that's just okay. It's not. It's not.
Jon McKenney:The only thing they bring to the table sexually is use and abuse, control, and manipulation. There is nothing else to it.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's why you're saying this, I'm recalling a client years and years and years ago who came to me and he said that he believed that his wife was a narcissist, and he said that he cheated on his wife, And he said this and he said, you know, attorney Jafari, I just want you to know, and this is how he would talk to me. This was the only way I could have her leave me because I was so abused in my marriage. It's like after we had our children, three children, she just treated me like crap was the word that he used.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:And John, I actually saw her in court and the way that she behaved towards me and towards him, just a flagrant disrespect to the point where I had to tell the judge that I was speaking and that she should not be speaking when I am speaking and that she has her own attorney. And why is she speaking when I'm speaking? And the judge had to admonish her to stop talking. And so, you know, that's he you know, he came to me and he was like, listen. I'm not your priest.
Padideh Jafari:I'm not your pastor. But I want you to know that I fully understand what you're saying, and I do not condone cheating for any reason. But I understand that this was self preservation for you, and you had to cheat on her so that she would leave you. Because otherwise he could not leave the relationship because they had three older children at this point. But he said that he waited like you to get a divorce until his kids were older.
Jon McKenney:So imagine and this is not the first time I've heard this. Can you imagine it being so bad that you violate your you're like, I have to violate my own conscience and cheat with somebody else to get rid of them because they won't leave any other way. How desperate a place is that to have to even think that or to begin to pursue that because, again, you just want to get out, and there's seemingly no other way to go do it. Know, I mean, if I hadn't filed for divorce, my ex would have never left. She would never have Same.
Jon McKenney:Left They'd have continued, she'd have continued to abuse me. She'd have continued to disrespect me. She'd continue to not have sex with me. She'd continue to gaslight me. She would have continued to lie, deceive, spat in my face once.
Jon McKenney:All this stuff was commonplace in our relationship. And she the only guarantee I had for relationship in the days ahead was that she would continue to do it and probably more than she did before. That was the only promise.
Padideh Jafari:Absolutely. I mean, same with me. I don't believe that my ex ever would have wanted the divorce. Even to this day, he says he didn't want the divorce Because why would they give up their perfect supply? Right?
Padideh Jafari:They have you hostage in the relationship, and they get to do whatever they want to do. So really, you're the one that is held hostage. And so, you know, again, I want to say this very clearly. I do not condone cheating and I told my client that but I also told them that I understood because of the relationship that I had. And so, know, it's best to just cut your ties and leave this person because we also know, and there was a study done, that narcissists actually get worse with age.
Padideh Jafari:They do not get better. So if you're in this relationship and you're thinking it's going to get better, you know, it's not. They're they get worse as they age. And so mine and John's decision to file for a divorce was the you know, was not taken lightly. And No.
Padideh Jafari:It really was the last opportunity to get off of the Titanic that we were on with this these people. These not the
Jon McKenney:The tendency is to want to try to converse these things out and to bring resolution and clarity. And that's what normal people do. That's what people do who have truth at the center of their being. The only way I know to describe the way narcissist operates, and you'll forgive the illustration here, but in the I love watching Star Trek. In the original series, there was this alternate universe where Kirk and Spock and his crew actually all evil.
Jon McKenney:It was a ship of destruction. They were destroying people who were marginalized and it was the opposite of their exact character. And when Kirk and a couple of others who were on maybe Spock, I get it wasn't Spock, maybe Scottie, got in there, they would give these people truth. They would give them they said, why don't we be peaceful here instead of instead of aggressive? And it sent these people into absolute chaos because they didn't know what to do with the truth.
Jon McKenney:And ultimately, narcissists are just like that. It is opposite world when you're having a conversation with them. They don't want resolution. They want this fixed. And ultimately, they're going go do what they're going to go do and you're going have to go live with it one way or the other.
Jon McKenney:And ultimately, get to a place where you go, I can't live with this anymore. And it couldn't be any more true than sexually. Can't do this anymore. I can't handle being demoralized anymore. I can't handle being used anymore.
Jon McKenney:I can't handle being abused anymore. And this is a big part of it. And truthfully, most sane people would know that if you decide you're going to go outside the marriage and have sex, like narcissists often do, the relationship is over. The marriage is over. And likewise, if you decide you're not going to have sex, guess what?
Jon McKenney:The relationship is over. You can't there's no place to go from here. There's no negotiating it one way or the other. If you approach them because they're hypersexual and they're off with other people, they're gonna pretend it didn't happen. If you approach them because they're not having sex, they're not gonna go do anything with it and they're gonna continue to try and manipulate.
Jon McKenney:You might get a bone thrown at you if they want you to go do something or if they think you're gonna leave. But that's it. And unfortunately, your only option, to the best of our understanding, counseling doesn't work, therapy doesn't work. The only option you have is to leave. And and like we've talked about here, there is peace on the other side, and we we hope we pray that peace for you.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, like you said, you've, you know, five years divorced, and you're not
Jon McKenney:No regrets.
Padideh Jafari:You're not in a relationship now, but you also don't have to prove your worth to someone. You don't have to do the negotiating that never gets any resolution. It's just you, and I can tell you as your one of your best friends Yeah. That you have a lot of peace. You know?
Jon McKenney:I do.
Padideh Jafari:And so and I had a lot of peace for you know? And it's wonderful when you are just on your own because these people bring so much chaos and craziness, the sheer amount of craziness. You're gonna laugh at this, but last night, I discovered something on TikTok. There it's a woman that did a 26 part series.
Jon McKenney:Oh my gosh.
Padideh Jafari:Relationship with a narcissist, a guy that she met in she lives in Dallas, Texas, and he lives in Denmark. And she says her this Danish guy that she met on vacation. And I listened to 16 of the episodes because they're short. You know, they're on TikTok. I ended up 10 to listen to.
Padideh Jafari:But, you know, she says as soon as she met him, not when she was on vacation, but the first time that she went to Denmark, as soon as she saw him, what do you think she did? She slept with him. And so and then, you know, it just a lot of craziness. I think he borrowed like, you know, over $23,000 from her. He borrowed $200,000 from a friend from a friend's husband to get into a business.
Padideh Jafari:And then she finds out like a year and a half into the relationship, now they're married, she finds out that he's got a gambling addiction. Oh So long story short is, again, they want to sleep with you. They they use sleeping with you and sex as a weapon. They don't use it as a way to have intimacy with you. And as I was listening to her to her last night, you know, I really do think you should go go listen to it too.
Padideh Jafari:Although it's it's I
Jon McKenney:to go check it out.
Padideh Jafari:A little bit hard to to to you know, she's good. She's good at storytelling, but it's very triggering her story because you're just like, oh my gosh. You know? But listen. One thing she says is he's very crafty.
Padideh Jafari:He's very charming. You know, these narcissists are so good with their words. They're like servants. Like, they'll tell you everything that you want to hear as a woman, and you feel like you met your knight in shining armor. You know?
Padideh Jafari:Until.
Jon McKenney:Until. Until you know him.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. And so, you know, all this to say that we really wanted to talk about this sort of taboo subject to make it not taboo in the sense that we understand your pain. And there's a lot of pain when it comes to this sexual relationship with a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Yep. There is one suggestion I wanna make if you're in the relationship with a narcissist. One of the play there was a place of power for me, getting power back in my relationship, when I intentionally stopped having sex with her. So there's a point in time and we you know, once a year, maybe if we we were lucky. And I can remember her approaching me.
Jon McKenney:Maybe it was a holiday or something like that, something crazy. And I'm like, nope. I don't wanna do it. And and that was a turning point for me where I got my power back because I realized in that moment, it's like, nah. You're not gonna be able to manipulate me anymore.
Jon McKenney:Sorry. You can't. That's that's the one thing you are not going to do anymore is demoralize. You're not gonna abuse. You're not gonna use me.
Jon McKenney:You're not gonna manipulate me through sex anymore. And for her, it was probably the beginning of the end of knowing that that I was serious about my departure and that our relationship was truly falling apart. Because when you say, I'm not gonna do it with you anymore, you're like, there is no way in hell that I'm gonna be manipulated by you anymore. And you really do get your power back when you decide, I will not have sex with you and set it aside. It's not good anyways.
Jon McKenney:And they're probably with other people, so you don't you don't you don't need that. So stand up for yourself. Put your big boy pants on and go, you know what? I I don't need this, especially with her or especially with him. And set set it aside and and watch the relationship change and watch how you cease to be manipulated by them in the days ahead.
Padideh Jafari:I think that's great advice. Just take your power back is basically
Jon McKenney:Take what it back. You're Absolutely. Well, we've had a fantastic conversation, Padita, and another By the way, congratulations. This is episode 20.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. I can't believe So
Jon McKenney:it's the end of our, of our fourth season, and congratulations on number 20. Was it you who told me that, 80% of people who start podcasts, don't get to episode 20?
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:Is that right?
Padideh Jafari:It was.
Jon McKenney:So we made it and we're still going to be around. We'll be working on season five soon and bringing you some other people to talk to and having real conversations about narcissists and how it's impacted us how it's impacting you and how to heal from it so we hope you have a fantastic rest of the day and that you live narcissist free.
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