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Welcome to "Visionary Voices" the podcast where we dive into the minds of business owners, founders, executives, and everyone in between.
Each episode brings you face-to-face with the leading lights of industry and innovation.
Join us as we uncover the stories behind the success and the lessons learned along the way.
Whether you're climbing the corporate ladder or just starting your business journey, these are the conversations you need to hear - packed with visionary voices and insights.
Let's begin.
Aqil (00:01.614)
So Larry, welcome to this episode of visionary voices. Thank you so much for taking the time today. Could you give us a top level view about what it is that you're working on right now and your journey so far?
Larry Chism (00:12.698)
Sure. Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me. And yes, my name is Larry Chisholm, and I'm an executive recruiter. I've been in the business for a while, 25 years. I'm a solopreneur, so I have my own practice. But basically, what I specialize in is essentially executive search and contract staffing. The areas that I work primarily in typically would involve health care, technology.
Aqil (00:23.842)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (00:42.07)
I've been doing a lot of work as of late in the engineering construction civil engineering sector That's just kind of throw out a few but as a professional in the field quite frankly I have worked a wide range of different areas within the recruiting spectrum So kind of a general view that's kind of what I do and what I'm doing right now
Aqil (01:03.406)
Definitely. mean, I'd love to go back to the start, right? So 25 years, course, running your own show is really amazing. like right at the start of that career, that journey, why do you, I guess, get into the world of entrepreneurship and why did you decide like this is the way you wanted to go? And of course you've been very successful because you've lasted 25 years and most people don't last a few years. So it would be good to understand what the motivations were.
Larry Chism (01:09.274)
Sure.
Larry Chism (01:23.35)
Yeah, yeah, it seems like a long time from my perspective. It's both long and short. to get to your question, yeah, well, first of all, I started my career in retail, retail clothing to be exact. so
Basically my job was kind of, know, actually I sold men's suits and so professional retailer and so forth. And ironically, one of my customers recruited me to work for them. And that's kind of how I got into the recruiting area. They had a small practice. They themselves were formerly in retail clothing, but branched out and started their own practice and saw me thought they saw something in me at that time and, started up a conversation. And then I went to go work for them. And so
That's kind of how I got into the recruiting business. And I can say just to add on top of that, guess it's fair to say that whatever career you pick, it's important how you start or how you begin. And these gentlemen here that recruited me, were really...
on training. They wanted to make sure that I had the best training, the best experience, the best entry into that into that business. And I got to tell you that literally was kind of the solid foundation of which everything that I either have learned in the business since then or have experienced it all kind of started out with that. And so having that perspective coming in, being new to the business really shaped my mindset, my attitude about choosing this as a career and everything that came after that.
Aqil (02:54.542)
Yeah, yeah. Amazing. And I think you're so right. You know, those early companies you work with really do shape your career and your pathway. And so it's really crucial, you're right, is those initial roles that you have, is that you take some lessons from it. And whether those good lessons or bad lessons as well, that's something that I found is the very first role that I had after school was an accountancy, if you can believe it, going from accountancy to marketing is quite a jump, but it was an accountancy at a huge company here in the UK. And although the company itself was a great company,
Larry Chism (03:02.766)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (03:15.948)
Okay. Sure.
Aqil (03:24.866)
the role itself for me, like it just wasn't a fit for me, right? And so although the lessons I was taking from it wasn't necessarily, you know, great lessons overall, the lesson I did learn was what wasn't for me. And then also, you know, maybe what other careers are open to me as well, right? And so I think there's always learnings can take from those initial years, but to your point, you know, it's very important that those initial companies is, I think you need to pick them very wisely because...
There's some people that I know where they got into a role and they stuck in it. They knew it wasn't for them. And now it's 10 years later and they're still in that role and they're not making the progress. yeah, I think, I to your point, it's definitely very important to pick those initial companies very, very importantly and very wisely.
Larry Chism (03:52.388)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (03:56.344)
Yeah. Yeah.
Aqil (04:08.814)
Definitely. with that company as well then, with that company as well. Sorry, I think there's a bit of a lag. One second.
Larry Chism (04:09.54)
That's great, yes.
I'm sorry now.
yeah, no, no. Yes, yes. So I'm sorry. So what was your next question here?
Aqil (04:23.616)
Yeah, so was going to say with that company that you worked at then, why did you then decide after that to maybe start up on your own? What was the initial turning point for you to want to go into starting your own firm?
Larry Chism (04:35.098)
Yes, no, no, that's a great question. So basically it was a combination of both professional and personal. So as I indicated, they took me in, they really made sure that I got the proper training, the right perspective and insight of the business. And then I'd say about maybe about a year and a half into that, my girlfriend at the time, now wife,
we had made a personal decision to move closer to some family members out in the Chicago area. And so in that aspect, I had kind of a choice because I was new into the business and quite frankly, I had experienced a great deal of success, which is not uncommon.
with anyone that's new to the business, because you don't have any prior perspective, so everything is new to you. And you're not against trying anything. so I just really, between the training they provided me and the successes that I had with the places that I made, I had a lot of confidence in what I was doing and that I made the right choice as a career transition. So when we made that move to Chicago, I could have either worked for another staffing firm or recruiting firm or...
For whatever reason, I decided to go in business for myself and ironically, and I guess it's kind of corny, but I saw a movie, ironically with Sean Connery, back in the day. One of his movies, he played King Arthur or something. And not to get into too much of the movie, but for some reason I'm in the movie and it just kind of hit me, what would it be like to kind of start something on your own? And that was, I guess, maybe the...
I don't know, the spark that caused that so when the decision to move out to Illinois happened, that kind of stuck with me. I said, well, let me take it off for a spin. mean, if I'm not successful, then I can always work for somebody else.
Larry Chism (06:24.6)
Basically, I did it. mean, obviously, I had a computer and so forth, worked from home at that time. And really, I stuck with retail because that was what I had started in, which is not uncommon because many people who have chosen recruiting as a career, they come from different sectors. Some people could be out of the technology space. Some people could come out of...
you know, out of the healthcare space, whatever your specialty is. Mine was retail clothing. So I stuck with that. But then I said, you know, when you're young, you you're not, I guess, trying anything. So I said, well, yeah, let me take this for a spin. So I dabbled into some of what I would call small business, low tech companies, called them, took them on as a client, had some successes in making placements. And from that point on,
I kind of diversified. So I did retail, but I also got into a little tech and I had my own little client portfolio. So here I am, oh my God, I'm up and running. I'm making money. Everything's great. Let me buy everybody a beer. That kind of thing. And so again, so the positive experience continued even though I had made a personal decision with my girlfriend at the time to relocate to another part of the country, but it just worked.
Aqil (07:21.429)
Yeah
Aqil (07:25.781)
Yeah.
Aqil (07:38.764)
Yeah, amazing. And it's one of those in entrepreneurship, right? Where you've to use what you got, right? When you start out and if you have the knowledge in that space, you have those contacts, those connections, you've to leverage that and really use that, which is obviously what you did, right? And you saw that success, is amazing. I guess in those early days, what are some of the challenges that you had, right? Because I think with entrepreneurship, the thing is, that there's so much, I guess, stress that can come with it where you don't...
Larry Chism (07:50.084)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (07:55.672)
Yes.
Larry Chism (08:00.131)
Yeah.
Aqil (08:06.286)
no way, maybe the next paycheck is and all these things kind of add up and if the Castro is lumpy, then what do do? And so what's some of the challenges that you face, especially in those early years?
Larry Chism (08:10.34)
Yeah. Yeah.
You know that's an excellent question and so early on, know, and again, like I said, I got off to a great start, but yeah, there were some bumps in the road, naturally, for sure. And one of the challenges that I encountered was something that I didn't really expect and I don't think anyone could expect until you're actually in it. And that was the solitariness of it. Because when you work for a company, you know, there are certain things that you take for granted. There people that you talk with, you may pass them in the hallways, whatever, but you don't think anything of, yeah,
I'll meet you this afternoon after work. I mean, you know that kind of stuff but when you're working for yourself initially and let's say your place of business is your home, which it was for me at that time You don't have that inter-office interaction. You don't have that background noise You don't have that hearing the person on the other side, you making a phone call or something And so all this background noise was was absent and so you you know that that that solitude really was a challenge for me and I didn't realize how much of a social
person I was until I realized I was in a non-social setting. And so the only interactions I had were with people who were on the phone either talking to candidates that were looking for a job or clients that were looking to hire me or that I was working with to fill open jobs. And that was it. So that was a big challenge for me. Other challenges that I encountered were probably what were less
I guess less difficult, they were probably more related to just learning curves in the field that I had chosen, techniques, how you talk to people on the phone, how you talk to candidates is a different conversation than how you would talk to either a client or a prospective client. And so how you present yourself, you had to be conscious of that. And again, as in anything, to each his own, we're all built differently, so you kind of have to draw to what your strengths are.
Larry Chism (10:12.124)
And for me, I was lucky enough to have a foundation of certain professional etiquettes that I learned in retail because one, it's a customer service environment. So you're always dealing with people, know, the customer's always right is kind of a theme that you learn even if they're wrong. The customer's always right. And so you have to obviously be professional at all times. So that was something that I drew upon, especially when, days where, you know, sometimes you wake up on the wrong side of the bed and, know, it's,
Aqil (10:30.859)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (10:42.044)
It's a little cloudier today, so it's not as sunny today. But you can't let that impact how you do your job. As far as the other person on the other side of the conversation, everything's great. Everything's promising potential, whatever it is that might be, but it has to be positive. those are the things, some of the nuanced things that I had to either adjust to or just make sure that I was on top of.
Aqil (11:05.996)
Yeah, I really resonate with the solitude section that you said there because when I, again, when I first started, you know, I was living in a, in a one bedroom by myself basically, and I was there waking up one meter to the desk, one meter back to bed and that was pretty much my day done. And you're so right, you don't speak to anyone. You don't have those kinds of micro social interactions and something that you do have to manage because for me actually got to a point where
Larry Chism (11:10.073)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (11:17.188)
Sure.
Larry Chism (11:23.268)
Mm-hmm.
Aqil (11:30.764)
I was kind of losing my mind a little bit. It's just like you go days without seeing someone or speaking to someone face to face, you know, cause my things were all aligned. And so I think it is definitely something that needs to be managed, right? Because I don't think it really ends either, especially if you are a solopreneur and you are kind of working from home or from your home office, but you need to, you need to manage that, right? To essentially work on and make sure you protect your wellness and your health and mindset and all these different things that come into it.
Larry Chism (11:32.954)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Larry Chism (11:42.201)
Yes.
Larry Chism (11:58.404)
Yes.
Aqil (11:58.74)
But I do agree with also the second point about your foundations, right? So you you lent on those, those early years in retail, where you built those foundations of, you know, customer service, customer interaction. And again, going back to what we said before, where you're using what you have, right, using those skills that you already have in a completely different setting, right, different vehicle, different environment. And I think that's also a really big learning for myself and also from people I've had on the show where, you know, they take a lesson from a completely different industry and then apply it to their current
Larry Chism (12:08.184)
Yes.
Larry Chism (12:16.814)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aqil (12:27.916)
work or the current life or the current industry. And so it's interesting how all these are really transferable skills along if you can obviously make that connection.
Larry Chism (12:37.37)
And one other thing that I just wanted to top off that particular subject is that also too at that time, you we're looking at the emergence of the internet as we know it. And so when you talk about, you know, what are other external factors that may impact, and this is any business, but obviously I'm talking about recruiting and the value proposition that you present to prospective clients. Because now with the emergence of the internet as we knew it then and as it is now,
Aqil (12:47.182)
Hmm.
Larry Chism (13:06.624)
It really made the world a bit smaller in terms of access to information, resources, those kinds of things where prior to that, prior to its popularity, I should say, we were hired because obviously we uniquely traveled in a different space that maybe some companies either just didn't operate in or just wasn't part of their business mantra. And so that kind of made our...
uniqueness and the need for us even more so. But now that technology in terms of the form of the internet had become more prevalent, it kind of leveled the playing field. So now we had to come up with a new value proposition. Well, why do you continue to need us? And so now, you know, we had to kind of come up with different reasons, whatever your speciality was, to say, well, there's a reason why you still need to use us, even though certain things have changed in the landscape.
Aqil (13:47.246)
Mmm.
Aqil (14:02.252)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a very good lesson about being able to pivot in entrepreneurship. I think that's a very important one is sometimes the market changes, the market shifts, things need to change and you need to make those decisions to pivot. And I think as well, that's one of the most difficult things to do as an entrepreneur, right? Do you continue to push with your current value proposition, your current way of doing things, or do you make that pivot? And sometimes you don't really know if the timing is now or if it's later, or what do you need to do?
and I think it's one of those unknown unknowns where you will never really know if it was the right time to make that change or make that pivot that you had to do. But I think the main lesson, I think from this is you do need to make sure you look at the market, right? At the time you said IT was coming up, internet was coming up. and so once those things came out, you had to then make that decision and make that pivot. And it's interesting now as we see, obviously AI is like this next kind of tech or internet boom that we're seeing, you know, how is this then going to impact, the decisions we make now and how, how do.
we pivot with this new technology now. So I guess I'd love to learn from your side, like what you seeing with AI technology now, like how is that impacting your business and your industry and what do you think's on the horizon?
Larry Chism (15:15.13)
Sure, and again, that's another great question. And so my perspective about AI, simply speaking, and then just kind of expanding on that, is that we're still kind of going through the Wild West, if you will. It's not entirely perfected across the board. mean, yes, there are some programs out there that are superior and very good, and there are others that are not so. And so, and then everything else is kind of in the middle.
how it's affected my line of work is in a number of ways. And this is no particular order, whether good or bad, but just kind of these are the impacts that I have seen both through my own experience and observations and even conversations with colleagues. Well, on one hand, it's made my job a little easier.
when I think of AI and I'll give you a specific example. So in the business of recruiting, one of the value propositions that you are presenting to a client is obviously your ability to identify quality candidates that you can present for their consideration. And so how do you...
Determine what quality is well, that's during some type of screening process and so obviously I mean the methodology isn't necessarily different but how you get to that is because of the use of the technologies and resources that are available so when it comes to Q &A situations and such and screening your candidates
AI has helped me identify and come up with screening questions and or resources that has allowed me to be quicker, both in setting them up as well as follow through and identifying candidates and getting them through the process a little quicker. So that is definitely a good thing that I applied AI. The other area where maybe it's not so great is essentially
Larry Chism (17:12.228)
How can I say this? And I'm speaking probably to some extent generationally because I've kind of been in the before it was here and now while it's here. And so I've had an understanding of what things were like before it came. And so listen, I was in my 20s as well at some point and you only know what you know.
and you do the best that you can and life is learning. So I respect that and I understand that. So right now you have a generation of recruiters that are working with the resources that they were brought into the industry to do and many of them are very good at it. The challenge though is for candidates who are looking for opportunities, what they're finding is that it's been more difficult than it should.
to be both considered and or land opportunities and not necessarily because of qualifications but simply because now there are other factors that go into the consideration. So if your resume does not fall within a certain keyword search algorithm, you may not even be considered. You you could be qualified for the job but...
Aqil (18:13.473)
Hmm.
Larry Chism (18:18.042)
you may not be considered or even looked at. Another factor is if you don't fall within maybe the 20 or 30 first batch of resumes that are tapped, again, you may be out of the running. Even though you're qualified, you're not even looked at. So there are other factors, and I understand that...
from a recruiter standpoint, especially if you're a corporate recruiter working for a company as opposed to an agency, there are other priorities that are pulling you in different directions and you really have to find ways to manage your time. so obviously an AI system or thereabouts is a useful tool in that capacity, but unfortunately some of the shortcomings may be at the expense of both the organization unknowingly, but as well as the candidates who may not have been, had an opportunity to be looked at, even if it's a five minute conversation,
or something. Those are some of just general examples that would share that where there's a mixed bag of where AI is right now.
Aqil (19:10.271)
Mm, yeah.
Aqil (19:17.42)
Yeah. And I completely agree with this, right? Because I think with recruitment, especially because it's so people driven, it's a people business is AI has again, the great ability to increase efficiencies, do all these amazing things, but at same time, it's very easy to lose the human element within the process. Right. Again, we're seeing with certain tools coming out where it's like AI interviewing and all these, all these things coming out, which, you know, completely removes the human element, the human interaction itself. So.
Larry Chism (19:36.462)
Yes.
Aqil (19:46.502)
I think you're completely right in your assumption is in terms of, you know, there's a lot of good that can be done with AI right now in the industry, but at the same time, you've got to be so careful because in a people driven industry, if you're removing the human element of it, what's going to be the outcome of that and what's going to be the ramifications of it? Because of course, you know, being a candidate going through the process, you need to make sure you deliver a really smooth process. And I know the companies where, you know, I've interviewed before, you know, a few years ago and everything like that, where the process wasn't
Larry Chism (20:09.23)
Mm-hmm.
Aqil (20:15.692)
Wasn't great. You you remember those, you remember those companies, right? You remember those processes, right? And so you need to be very careful if you are a company and you are looking to add these tools in that you do weigh up what makes sense to be outsourced to AI. And we made this mistake early on, you know, a couple of years back when AI started coming out and we started building these automations within the business is we went, went really far with it and said, Hey, we're going to completely automate this section of the business. And what we found is it was actually pretty detrimental because those human elements, those human touch points were completely lost.
Larry Chism (20:28.346)
Mm.
Aqil (20:45.654)
And because of that, we ran into a load of different issues. So for us now we have this workflow of what we do, but every section or every key milestone, we have like the human element interaction with it to make sure things are accurate, things are being done properly. And I think that is where AI is right now, where it's not completely autonomous, where you can just let it go and do its thing. You still need to have the reins on it and have those human touch points or checkpoints throughout the process. That's my take on it right now with what I'm seeing.
Larry Chism (20:49.176)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (21:04.26)
Mm-hmm.
Aqil (21:14.956)
Amazing. So I guess when you have been, you know, grown this business over last 25 years, how have you, and this be put my marketing and sales hat on, how have you obviously grown and scale the company, right? How were you getting clients? What would, what did that look like? And also how's that changed over time as technology has evolved as well. And how has that shifted, you know, your way of working to, to, get those clients in the front door.
Larry Chism (21:25.306)
Thank
Larry Chism (21:40.618)
Sure, so basically, in terms of obviously your client acquisition and such, I kind of use the D, all the above approach. So it could be referrals. It could be clients that refer you to other prospective clients. It could be colleagues, obviously with social media.
obviously reaching out to companies, introducing yourself. LinkedIn is a resource that helps you identify decision makers. For me, I think in addition to a lot of the current technologies that are available to both collect information about companies and so forth, combined with the...
how can I say, the hands-on interactive aspect. And what I mean by that is when I first came into the business, it was just a natural part of the norm to interact with people directly. So the picking up the phone, calling a stranger, introducing yourself.
generating that conversation as opposed to nowadays you see a lot of emails and so forth or anything but an initial direct contact. mean obviously virtual calls are definitely useful but in terms of know client you know first contact situations you get a barrage of emails and that may check the quantity box but definitely not the quality box. And so for me I think in some respects I have a I don't say an unfair advantage it's a general
generational advantage that we had to conduct business without all these resources. to me, some of it is kind of what's old is new.
Aqil (23:22.478)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (23:26.394)
That being said, I have the benefit of the technology and resources to access information about companies, identify decision makers, and then reach out to them, whether it be to either to identify what their direct email address is, their phone number, some type of direct contact that I can reach out to them. LinkedIn, again, is another resource. Reach out to them, connect with them. They accept your connection, which in most cases, if you're a recruiter, you don't get a lot of rejections. So at least there's an end there.
Aqil (23:26.434)
Yeah.
Aqil (23:53.646)
You
Larry Chism (23:56.396)
and then you get in, kind of make an introduction and whatever it is that you have to offer. And in many cases, you'll get a response back and so forth. But the point being is that that's kind of how I do my business development. And once you kind of make the initial contact, then there's a follow through. So how do you keep them on the phone? How do you keep them talking with you? you need to, this is where product knowledge is essential. Obviously, know your business, know what you offer.
know the value that you offer. But keep in mind and be sensitive that the people that are on the other side may not have the time that you would love them to have. So how can I get their attention in such a short span of time that will allow them to decide, OK, you know, I will give this person a little more time.
here maybe another minute, another two minutes and so on. And I bring that out because sometimes I'll get emails and I'll get these long-winded novels and I'm like, okay, well thank you for sending me all this information. One, I don't have time to read it, but two, what were you thinking and understanding that you want to be thorough, but you need to understand that maybe that's a later email, if at all, down the road. You need to kind of get their attention with some type of a hook.
Aqil (25:15.213)
Hmm.
Larry Chism (25:15.836)
Hopefully will catch your attention that might be an immediate need or okay. Yeah, I can I can waste you know a minute with this person and and even you're frank even as of late because you're always it's it's a Methodology that you're always continually improving. There's no set way Naturally their experience that you draw in in terms of you interact with people But you know even as of late there's a script that I use where I get someone on the phone And this is a prospective client and I'll basically say well
I'll open up with an opening line that's literally no more than 10 seconds. And in that 10 seconds, I'm asking for 45 more seconds. And in that 45 seconds, I'm outlining exactly what it is, why I'm calling them, and what is it I'm offering. And then hopefully within that 45 seconds, they will give me more time.
Aqil (25:55.99)
Mmm.
Larry Chism (26:06.574)
But already I'm setting the premise of, OK, I'm going to presume that I caught you at a bad time. I know you don't have a lot of time. But if you're willing to give me at least 45 seconds of your time, I'm not interrupting your day so much that you still can't hang up the phone on me. But at the same time, you give yourself a shot. So kind of land my plane, so to speak.
Aqil (26:24.247)
You
Larry Chism (26:30.35)
There are a lot of different factors that you really need to take into consideration before you make that initial contact. Obviously, who you're reaching out to, you want to reach out to a decision maker, someone that controls money, someone that can make money decisions with little or no higher up authorization because...
The goal is if they do like what you have to offer, then you want to make sure that that person is a person that can authorize paying you for that service if it goes that way. So there's a lot of different things that you want to keep in track. So I threw a lot of information at you, but hopefully somewhere in there you got some key bullet points of what I was trying to focus on.
Aqil (27:02.902)
Yeah, absolutely. And the one big thing that I really love about what you mentioned there is that framework of essentially everything you're saying and doing, right? You're doing to buy the next lot of time, right? To carry on that conversation. I think that's really important. And it's something that I see, you know, a lot of companies fail at overall, right? Working in the go-to-market space and the kind of outbound side of things is, yeah, people send this super long email or, you know, very much irrelevant email, let's say as well. And it's not doing what you said, right? It's not.
Every line isn't buying them the next bit of time for them to read the rest of that email or, or continue with the action or whatever that could be. And in the cold call setting, right, is that first 10 seconds is buying the next 40 seconds, right? It's buying the next 60 seconds or whatever that could look like. And that's the way you got to look through it. And the lens you've got to look through it is not how can I throw all this stuff up with someone right where they need to then spend actual time and mental energy to break down and figure out what it that you're saying. It needs to be super easy for them to understand in just a couple of seconds.
Larry Chism (27:58.585)
Yes.
Aqil (28:01.602)
to then carry on reading and continue with that message or whatever that could look like. So I think that's a very, very valuable and insightful tip because a lot of people struggle with outbound. They really struggle to get it working. And I think as well is the followups, right? What you touched on at the start is you need to, yes, you're gonna send one message, you're gonna make one phone call, but that is not where the money is made. The money is made through consistent repetition of going through and trying to close that deal.
Larry Chism (28:23.951)
Mm-hmm.
Aqil (28:31.074)
I did a podcast last week and the company that I spoke with, they've closed deals at really big enterprises, Like Uber and Airbus and BAE Systems, all these different ones. And he said the longest deal that they had was seven years, right? Seven years of follow-up, moving it along, seeing what they can do. And of course, in the end, they closed. Now they're one of the biggest clients. And it was just such a wake-up call of, takes time, right? This stuff takes time and you just need to be consistent with it.
Larry Chism (28:35.706)
and
Larry Chism (28:48.238)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Aqil (29:00.68)
and I think a lot of people, especially now it's that instant, you know, wanting to close clients straight away, very transactional. And I think going back to what you mentioned where, you know, you can just have that conversation is it's down to the relationship, right? You need to build those relationships with people and not look at everyone or every, every email as a transaction and actually see it as a relationship and build it in that way and in that form. Absolutely. So.
Larry Chism (29:00.9)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (29:14.829)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (29:20.654)
Yes.
Larry Chism (29:27.002)
And you know, and just to dovetail on a couple of points that you made in the example that you provided with the other company, there's also, and this goes in again, not only in just a business development aspect, but just, you know, the animal recruiting overall, because when I think of certain traits that can serve a person well, and this is again, in no particular order, persistence is definitely one of them.
You need to be resilient and persistent at both your message, what you're trying to accomplish, and you're going to come across some slam doors. mean, that's just the reality. Understanding that not every day is going to be a great day, and some day is going to be half great days, and some are going to be half bad days, or however you look at it terms of glass half empty, glass half full. But if you look at it from that perspective, almost kind of like a marathon.
rather than the spread. Think of the long term. You want to budget your energy. You want to budget your efforts. You want to budget your expectations. Not that you don't want to lower your expectations. you want to be, I think ambition is essential to the drive. It's what makes you get up and do what you want to do. In the same token,
Aqil (30:25.004)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (30:46.232)
You want to temper that too with budgeting for the long haul because you're going to have some successes, you're going to have some failures, you're going to have some successes that actually feel like failures to some extent. But the whole point is really understanding that there's definitely, I'm going to use a...
Aqil (30:58.838)
Hahaha
Larry Chism (31:10.202)
famous retired and say retired football player I can't believe it but Tom Brady of the New England Patriots in my neck of the woods who was playing playing for the New England Patriots and in his career with the Buccaneers but there's a phrase that he would use quite often which I wholeheartedly agree with which is mental discipline and and that's something that you can apply in any facet of your life whether you do recruiting like I do some other profession or just in general
Aqil (31:28.462)
Hmm.
Larry Chism (31:38.008)
because it both engages your resilience, it engages the discipline that you need to take into whatever occupation or career, in this case recruiting, and really understand that you wanna make sure that.
your discipline and what you do that many things that you do may be repetitive or replicated and that's part of the norm but also you want to be open to new things and so it's almost like you know you need to be flexible.
But there's some things too that you need to be very cemented in because that's the foundation that you're to be building on top of. And if you're disciplined with that and you understand that these are the key areas or elements that I need to uphold, then it makes dealing with the rough days not so bad because you know that, although today isn't that great, tomorrow will be a better day. And overall, you may win the war kind of thing as opposed to losing a few battles here and there.
Again, mental discipline and attitude and how you look at it is half the battle.
Aqil (32:49.688)
Yeah, I completely agree. And a really good quote that said to me a few years back is how you do something is how you do everything as well. And so when it comes down to entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship is one big game of personal development, to be honest, right. And so in every other areas of your life, that also bleeds into how you run the business and what goes on there as well. And so think that's been the biggest takeaway for me on top of it is like, not only do you need discipline and yeah, the sales are following up, like all this work we need to do as entrepreneurs, but then also outside of that is
Larry Chism (32:58.98)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (33:06.743)
Yes.
Aqil (33:17.42)
other areas of your life, you also need to carry that discipline as well, because that will also then bleed into the work you do as well. So completely agree. think from a entrepreneurship point of view, personal development is so important and you need to be working on this, not only in the business setting, but also outside of the business, which will in turn help the business. So in terms of the recruitment industry itself, obviously a lot of things are changing in terms of technology and just the world itself seems like it's changing every couple of weeks.
Larry Chism (33:20.952)
Yes.
Aqil (33:46.446)
What do you envision in terms of the future of recruitment over the next decade or so? And what do you think are going to be some of the pivots or changes that you see on the horizon?
Larry Chism (33:56.012)
Right, basically, obviously we're already starting to see the emergence of some of the changes and how it's being impacted. mean, AI is definitely gonna play a major role in how people perform and function in the world of recruiting.
As long as there's a need for people, you're going to need some type of people element in the equation or in the formula. But the question now is in what capacity?
It's, it's...
How can I, I'll explain it probably in this way because in the recruiting world, and I'm speaking generally, it's almost like there's two domains. And I kind of alluded to it lightly, but I'll be more clear now. So in the recruiting world, you have corporate recruiters and you have agency recruiters. I would use them in those labels. And I want to use this analogy because I like to use the example of you have a German shepherd and you have a wolf.
Okay, and they both generally look the same on the outside, but you know on the inside they're very much different. And so, and so when you think of AI and other technical tools that are used to bring recruitment efforts to bear, they're used in different ways on either side of the columns. And so that, you know, is going to play a major role in how the recruiting industry as a whole will evolve. One of the things that I am seeing on my
Larry Chism (35:31.71)
side of the aisle is a strong push for retained search and to kind of get into
doubt a little bit and just kind of not to make any presumptions. So in the world of recruiting to laymen, we all may seem the same. But when you're a recruiter, you realize that there are different animals under that recruiting umbrella. So you have obviously a temp staffing, contract staffing. You have what they call DRISH, you head hunting, which is permanent placement. And then you have retained search, which is kind of looked upon as the, in my view, that the premium on a top level, the more consultative component of the recruiting
world and I throw retained out there because that is going to be a pivotal part in leading the effort in terms of value proposition in terms of the value proposition that recruiting as a whole will play in terms of how to utilize by companies or any or any entity.
because it's all about the value proposition and would retain, you're coming in the door right off the bat as a partner. Someone that is part of, you may not be part of that company, but you're kind of like attaching yourself to that organization and making yourself a part of them. So you're coming in as the hand or as the foot and so forth. So even though you're a separate entity, you are part of that organization. So your goal is to kind of immerse yourself in who they are.
Aqil (36:42.434)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (36:56.876)
and kind of make their identity your identity. Because then that's how you provide the value because as you identify individuals that may be aligned with their values and skill sets and any other factors that need to be considered, that is what you're bringing in. So the value proposition is gonna be a key factor in how this industry evolves and how it changes. So technology is gonna influence that. A lot of what I have learned in terms of how I came into business, I think...
Aqil (37:12.408)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (37:25.434)
will not go away. In some cases, you'll see a reemergence of it. But it has to be, I just say no, it has to be in a way that people can...
identify with that approach. so to be clear, what I mean by that is that I mentioned earlier that you have a generation of recruiters that come into the business utilizing technologies, but they were unaware because it wasn't part of the...
their life experience that there were other ways to do this job. And so someone like myself who kind of has a foot in the past and the present and is kind of moving into the future, we have all these different perspectives. And so some of us may be utilized as part of the, know, okay, well, hey, let's bring in somebody old and make it new. To give you just a very small example, during the turn of century, we had, when you were going from 1999 to 2000, you may have heard a term called Y2K.
in the past, probably more hysterical from your vantage point, but at the time, there was a genuine concern because the concern was that no one thought long-term enough to realize, guys, the clock is gonna change from 19-something to 2,000-something.
Aqil (38:28.907)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Larry Chism (38:41.882)
Did someone figure that out when they built these computers? when they, is the clock gonna stop? Are planes gonna drop from the sky? And so there was just a frantic chaos. So they brought in people that were, how should I say, coming when Bill Gates was a teenager. Okay, bringing in their technology to check all these computers to make sure that the world didn't end the moment the crystal ball came down in 2000. So I mean, it's a
Aqil (38:47.214)
Thank
Aqil (39:00.046)
You
Yeah.
Aqil (39:08.214)
you
Larry Chism (39:11.856)
on it but it's also a serious thing so I'm not saying to that extreme of course but that's kind of a flavor where I see technology versus what we do the interaction of people and how that evolves there's gonna be some of that that's gonna be happening
In 10 years, yes, it's going to be different. think AI is definitely going to be much more perfected. I think it will be a much more friendly tool, or actually more, to be more accurate, a more predictable tool, a more user-friendly tool when it comes to both recruiters and more so applicants, candidates who are looking for opportunities. Because then the landscape will have changed as well in terms of either people catching up or what have you. And so there's going to be a leveling off of that.
So right now, you know, we're going through, I think it's fair to say, some turbulence. Some of it is technology-based. Some of it is economic-based. Some of it is political. There's a whole lot of things that are going on in the world today. So any number of those things have had influence both in present tense and the foreseeable future. So some of that will also play a factor in once we kind of get beyond that and things kind of settle to their foundation, if you will, to use a construction.
analogy, then we'll have a much clearer perspective on basically where we'll have recruiting landed and from that point on what will be the future moving forward.
Aqil (40:42.458)
Absolutely. I completely agree with everything there, right? I think right now we need to see where things settle, right? And what's going to happen, as you said. And then from there, it'll be interesting to see, you know, what way we're moving forward. And, you know, I think that's just general, the general vibe as well across all industries right now is there's so much uncertainty and everything's unsettled, especially in the marketing space, right? We're seeing a big shifts and big changes, but we don't know where it's actually going to land. And so I think that's going to be when this technology stabilizes and the landscape stabilizes a little bit.
Larry Chism (41:07.385)
Thank
Aqil (41:11.906)
Yeah, we're interested to see what the next step is gonna be for all these industries for sure. So one of the final questions we always ask guests on the show is if you can go back to your 18 year old self and only take three lessons with you, whether it's some philosophical knowledge, some business knowledge, general advice, what would those three things be and why would be those three things?
Larry Chism (41:15.93)
Mm-hmm.
Larry Chism (41:20.58)
Sure.
Larry Chism (41:24.441)
Yeah.
Larry Chism (41:31.898)
And I made a point to actually write those down because it's a lot to think about. But in no particular order, of course, one of the things that I would probably tell my 18-year-old self is, and although I'm not sure how well I listen, but I don't think I was unreasonable then, but is to understand the commodity of time.
Aqil (42:00.526)
Mm, yeah.
Larry Chism (42:01.39)
And that at any age, time is a one commodity that is irreplaceable. I mean, you can make money, you can do this, you can do that. But time is a one commodity, regardless of whether your wealth or social status is, that once you use that time up, that's not replaceable. You may be able to extend it and things of that. But time is commodity. So really value and understand the commodity of time.
That connects to two other things. So with time comes obviously planning. Understand the value of planning, whether it's short term, long term, medium term. And don't necessarily overthink it. just have some idea of what you're getting into, even if you've given it 10 minutes thought or thereabouts. Just put the effort into a plan.
As you take the evolutionary approach, things will evolve over time. As you get older, if that's a characteristic in your personality, then you will naturally evolve. And then as you get older and your life becomes more complex, that understanding of planning is more integrated in your everyday life. You do it like you breathe. You don't think anything of it. If you're gonna buy a house, you're gonna come up with a plan. If you're gonna decide a career choice, you're gonna have a plan on how you're gonna get there.
that kind of thing. understand the value of planning. And that kind of ties into, again, the commodity of time. And then the other item is understand the value of budgeting. It doesn't matter how much money you make or how little you make. Just understand the importance of budgeting. And budgeting covers a lot of things. How you save, how you spend, how you don't spend.
Aqil (43:38.638)
Yeah.
Aqil (43:57.934)
Hmm.
Larry Chism (43:58.19)
I think those three things, the commodity of time, planning and budgeting, that kind of triangle if you will, that's what I would say to my younger self. I think everything as I kind of reflect that I've been through from a career standpoint, from a personal life standpoint, any other major factors, I think to some extent root at one of those three, if not all of those at one time or another.
And that if those are things that I have a constant awareness of as time goes on, everything else will kind of fall into place.
Aqil (44:33.71)
Amazing, amazing. I think there's some great lessons there for everyone to take away. And definitely for me, the budgeting one is one I'm working on as much. So I really appreciate your time today. Really enjoyed this conversation. I'm sure everyone else has as well. So thank you so much for taking the time and joining me on the show.
Larry Chism (44:40.962)
Yeah
Larry Chism (44:51.802)
So thank you very much, I appreciate it, I enjoyed myself. Take care now.