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For America's 250th birthday, Heidi and Joel skip the fireworks and head for the ballpark, and they bring their guest, Bob Kendrick, along. He is the President of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri. The museum is just a few blocks away from where the team owners established a league of their own in 1920. Bob has spent three decades making sure that the players and the stories of the Negro League are not forgotten.
Bob walks Heidi and Joel through why some of the best baseball in the country got played on fields most fans never read about, how a club from Jamestown, North Dakota beat a lineup of big-league stars, and what happened to the Negro Leagues the day Jackie Robinson finally got his shot. Bob has answers and a lot of good stories to go with them.
In this episode:
- How Jim Crow forced Black players into their own leagues, and how they answered on the field
- Satchel Paige, Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, and careers the majors delayed or erased
- Why Negro Leagues games often outdrew the majors, and the talent gap that never existed
- Larry Doby and the different fight the American League's first Black player faced
- How World War II shifted the country's willingness to integrate its pastime
Resources & Links
Connect with Bob Kendrick on:
Two hundred fifty years in, America’s pastime still has a few chapters that are not told enough. Tune in.
The Hot Dish is brought to you by the One Country Project. To learn more, visit OneCountryProject.org, or find us on Substack (Onecountryproject.substack.com), and on YouTube, Bluesky, and Facebook (@onecountryproject).
- (00:00) - - Americana, baseball, and the show's focus
- (00:43) - - Kansas City, birthplace of the Negro Leagues
- (01:36) - - Bob Kendrick on the leagues' history
- (02:12) - - North Dakota's early integration
- (03:07) - - Bismarck and Jamestown's integrated teams
- (05:27) - - The Bismarck-Jamestown rivalry
- (07:03) - - Teaching the discrimination players faced
- (11:20) - - How long the leagues lasted after integration
- (12:30) - - Team geography and migration patterns
- (14:13) - - The East-West All-Star Game
- (17:10) - - Segregation's overt and covert forms
- (18:10) - - Satchel Paige's legend and skill
- (20:22) - - WWII, Willie Mays, and Henry Aaron
- (21:20) - - Jackie Robinson's courage and burden
- (24:13) - - Hank Aaron's rise to stardom
- (25:50) - - Baseball as a unifying force
- (32:00) - - The museum's future and mission
- (33:50) - - Positional barriers in early integration
- (38:01) - - Roy Campanella and other Hall of Famers who started in the leagues
- (43:27) - - Visit the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum
Creators and Guests
Host
Heidi Heitkamp
U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp served as the first female senator elected from North Dakota from 2013 – 2019. he is the founder and Chair of the One Country Project, an organization focused on addressing the needs and concerns of rural America. Heidi was recently named the Director of the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago, a university she has long been committed to and a place where she enjoys engaging with students over civic discussions while encouraging them to seek opportunities in public service to our country. Heidi also serves as a contributor to both CNBC and ABC News.
Host
LA
Producer
Laura Anderson
What is The Hot Dish?
Former U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp and her brother, KFGO radio talk show host Joel Heitkamp, engage in animated discussions with newsmakers, elected leaders, and policymakers who are creating new opportunities for rural Americans and finding practical solutions to their challenges. Punctuated with entertaining conversations and a healthy dose of sibling rivalry, The Hot Dish, from the One Country Project, is informative, enlightening, and downright fun.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:00)
Веком I'm Heidi Heitkamp
Joel Heitkamp (00:04)
And I'm Joel Heitkamp and it's like Christmas for me.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:09)
This will be Christmas. He keeps telling me I can't even get a question in, Bob. So ⁓ well, Joel, I'm so happy your technology decided to cooperate a little bit today. ⁓ but baseball is America's pastime. In fact, we grew up sitting on the bleachers watching amateur baseball. My mom had seven kids in nine years.
And she would dress all of the kids, not the boys, because of course they bookend us, but all the girls in exactly the same outfits so that she could count to make sure that we hadn't all run away out of the ballpark. So, you know, it was it's it's part of what ⁓ was small town America when I was growing up ⁓ in a in a town of 90 people with very competitive baseball. And so why are we talking about baseball? This country turns 250 years old.
from the Declaration of Independence. And I keep thinking about how much of that history can be read right off of a baseball diamond. ⁓ who got to play, who got turned away at the gate, what people built, and when the front door stayed open, when it stayed locked, and when it opened. ⁓ so today's guest has spent more than three decades on that story. And so I'm so happy. I'm just thrilled, not as thrilled as Joel.
to welcome Bob Kendrick, the president of the Negro Leeds Baseball Museum in Kansas City. Bob, welcome to the hot dish.
Bob Kendrick (01:36)
⁓ it is a thrill to be part of the hot dish. Thank you guys for having me on the show.
Joel Heitkamp (01:43)
Well, Bob, I I've got to tell you one of the reasons that I'm so thrilled that Heidi did a pretty good ⁓ job of explaining why our family is so into baseball. We had no choice. Our father did. I mean, Heidi went around selling popcorn with a twine string in a box, you know, holding the the popcorn. So the height camps have been making money off baseball for a long, long time. But, you know, Bob, I, you know, there's a ton of questions here. I get that.
But I'm kind of proud of North Dakota, because where I live, North Dakota broke those barriers in the nineteen thirties. ⁓ and we were integrated. And in fact, if you hear a lot of stories, you know, about baseball in North Dakota, they all involve, you know, black players. And I'm I'm sure you know that, but I just wanted the audience to know that, Bob.
Bob Kendrick (02:36)
Yeah, no, you're you're right. And Heidi and I were talking before we actually started the show about North Dakota's very rich connection to black baseball history, and specifically the Negro Leagues. You know, both Jamestown and and of course Bismarck in particular. The Bismarck Churchills. ⁓ and the Bismarck Churchills was one of the first integrated professional baseball teams. Now they were a semi-pro team, but as I tell folks, so
There was nothing semi about this team because they recruited some great talent from the Negro Leagues, Leroy Satchel Page, Hilton Smith, Ted Double Duty, Radcliffe, guys like that who helped them win the N in the NBC Baseball Congress tournament in Rachel was tremendous. And to see these black and white players playing together at a time when you just couldn't even fa fathom this was just kind of
Eye opening on so many different levels. Jamestown, the same thing. And we were talking about this rivalry that was kind of created because Bismarck had started recruiting these great players from the Negro Leagues. And then Jamestown said, wait a minute, we won't hear on some of this action. They started recruiting some of these brothers from the Negro Leagues. And man had created this wonderful baseball rivalry. And that Jamestown team beat a team that had a bunch of major league all-stars and
Including Jimmy Fox and the the legendary Wilbur Bullet Joe Rogan shut him out. 11 to nothing. This Jamestown team beat a tremendous Major League Baseball All-Star team. And Bully Rogan, folks, if you're hearing that name for the first time, Bully Rogan is in the National Baseball Hall of Fame, was a star pitcher for the Kansas City Monarchs, one of the great two-way stars of the Negro Leagues. Because y'all, when he wasn't pitching,
He played the outfield and hit cleanup for the Kansas City Monarchs. And only in the beautiful vernacular of Leroy Sachal Page, because no one else could have said it like quite like this. He says that Bullard Rogan was the only ball player he ever saw, he ever heard of that pitched and hit in the cleanup position.
Joel Heitkamp (04:58)
Well, I have to tell you, Bob, if you want to, you know, I'm a talk show host, so I get paid to start fights. But if you want to ⁓ if you want to start one, just go to the Jamestown Elks Club and ⁓ mention Satchel Page. Mention which team was better. ⁓ because as Heidi can affirm, they're they get pretty honry when you mention that Bismarck had such a presence and you don't mention Jamestown. I promise you.
Bob Kendrick (05:27)
You
better mention them both. Yeah, no, you see, I was smart enough to understand that.
Joel Heitkamp (05:32)
Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (05:36)
Well, this is a history that is ⁓ hasn't been told enough. And I have to mention that I lived in Chicago for a while on the south side, Hyde Park, and there was a guy who was in residence in my apartment building who owned a uniform from every Negro League ⁓ team.
And and every day he would try he would put on a different uniform. And then if you were just sitting in the lobby, he'd make sure he educated you on what ⁓ on on what the Negro leagues meant for baseball. And you know, it was it was fascinating because there's so many people like you, Bob, who want to carry out this tradition. But yet, okay, so get a little little political here. ⁓ you know, I've been really disturbed by
the idea that we are gonna wipe out ⁓ American history, especially American ⁓ African American history, whether it's Jackie Robinson's picture at the Pentagon, whether it is taking down ⁓ placards at ⁓ at Mount Vernon that ⁓ that talk about slavery and what slaves meant to the economy of the of the colonies. ⁓ it it's it's it is more important now than it's ever been.
For people like you to do what you're doing. I don't know if you agree with that, but it seems to me how important it is to tell the story about the talent, but also the discrimination.
Bob Kendrick (07:05)
Yeah, no, it's in it's vitally important that you have cultural institutions like the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, guys, that essentially bridges the gaps. See, there are gaps in the pages of American history books, and there are so many who have contributed to the greatness of this country, and their stories really have never been told, certainly not told in their proper perspectives. And the story of the Negro Leagues is one of America's greatest stories. Yeah, it is built around the ugliness of American segregation.
A horrible chapter in this country's history. But the story here, guys, that emerges here is what emerged out of segregation. This wonderful story of triumph and conquest. And it's all based on one small simple principle. You won't let me play with you in the major leagues. Okay. I'll create a league of my own. And as I remind my guests, when you stop to think about that, that is the American way. And so while America was trying to prevent them.
From sharing in the joys of his national pastime, it was the American spirit that allowed them to persevere and prevail. What's not to love about that kind of story? And I witness this every single day here at the Naval League Baseball Museum. And I don't care what color you are, when our guests walk into this museum, they are amazed by what they learn. But to be quite frank,
They are somewhat dismayed by the fact that I just now had an opportunity to learn it. You do question why didn't I know this during my own formal education? Well, the answer is simple: American historians did us all a tremendous disservice. They kept this wonderful chapter of baseball and Americana away from us. Thus, countless generations of us went through our formal educations.
Without knowing again, one of the most significant chapters, not in baseball history, but in American history. And that's the rich, compelling, inspirational story of the Negro Leagues. And so for those who come here expecting to be introduced to a sad, somber kind of story, we got the wrong place. Now we treat it for exactly what it is a celebration. Now, granted, it is the celebration of the power.
Of the human spirit to persevere and prevail.
Joel Heitkamp (09:39)
Bob, I I think it's really important for the audience to know why Kansas City, why this is so important and why the museums in Kansas City.
Bob Kendrick (09:51)
And I get asked that question all the time, and the answer is really simple. Kansas City is the birthplace of the Negro Leagues. So a Negro Leagues Museum is rightfully headquartered here in Kansas City. As a matter of fact, y'all, just right around the corner from where the Negro Leagues were established in 1920. At the Paseo YMCA, that building still stands. And as a matter of fact, we've now designated it as the future home.
Of the Buck O'Neill Education and Research Center as part of a tremendous expansion of the Negro League's Baseball Museum. And so, in many ways, we're going full circle right back to the very building that gave birth to the story that we're now charged with preserving. But it was in that historic landmark that a guy named Andrew Roop Foster led a group of eight independent Black baseball team owners.
Into a meeting held at the Passale YMCA. And on February 13, 1920, they walked out having established the Negro National League, the first successful organized black baseball league. And then, of course, guys, the Negro Leagues would go on to operate for 40 years from 1920 until 1960. And as you both can well imagine, that surprises the majority of my guests.
Because they all can relate the fact that Jackie Robinson breaks baseball's color barrier in 1947. And I do think the general consensus is well, if there was a Negro Leagues, surely it must have ended in and around that time. Well, the leagues would operate for another 13 years. Why? Because it took Major League Baseball 12 years before every Major League team had at least one black baseball player, the Boston Red Sox.
Would become the last team to integrate in 1959 when they signed a ball player by the name of Elijah Pumpsy Green. That would complete the integration cycle. By 1960, the Negro Leagues closed its doors because by then the best young black and Hispanic ball players had moved into the major leagues or into their minor league systems, and there simply was no replenishing system, so the leagues would then formally dissolve.
Joel Heitkamp (12:16)
Well one other thing though about the league, Bob, and I want people to understand why the the country or at least the Midwest where we're from enjoyed it so much. And I I think it's important for you to say where this league played. You know, the perception that everything is a a home baseball game. ⁓ walk walk the the audience through that, Bob.
Bob Kendrick (12:44)
Yeah, you know, most of these teams, the original eight teams were primarily Midwestern based. And then eventually it started to spread to that northern seaboard, and then eventually a handful of teams in the South. But see, when you look at the structure of the Negro Leagues, it followed the migration of African Americans after the Civil War. Because we left the South and migrated to the Midwest and along that northern seaboard.
Looking for what I like to say industrialized opportunities, factory jobs. And so you'll see that the Negro League set up shop where you had your largest concentration of that primary black fan base that supported black baseball. But again, for those who don't always understand the complexities of what Jim Crow and a segregated society was, these teams were forced to form because they were shunned.
From Major League Baseball. But here's the ironic thing about it. They were renting many Major League stadiums to play these games. Uh-huh. And they were filling up the ballpark in those major league stadiums. And so, in so many cases, they were out drawing the Major League teams in their own stadiums. But think about this, y'all. That's part of the reason that it took so long to integrate.
Because the major leagues were making money from the Negro Leagues. They're getting a percentage of the gate and likely all of a concessions. Heidi, there in Chicago. The great Chicago American Giants played most of their home games at old Kaminsky Park, there in Chicago, which was also a place that launched one of the greatest sporting events in American sports history, the East West All-Star Game.
Debut the same year as Major League Baseball's All-Star Game, 1933. And yes, it did outdraw Major League Baseball's All-Star Game. Guys, they would put over 50,000 people in Chicago's Kamiski Park. My dear friend, the late great Buck O'Neill, would say that black folks would come from as far west as Los Angeles, as far south as New Orleans, as far east as
New York by train converging on Chicago for this showcase event. Okay.
Heidi Heitkamp (15:14)
And and and you think about it, the enormous talent that you were watching and the ⁓ you know what what what people the a whole generation didn't see the best baseball players in America. It really there's a kind of tragedy to that. That, you know, if you love baseball, you want to see someone perform, you know, regardless of of race or color or any kind of other you you just want to see great baseball. Now I did read your story, Bob.
that was recently published. and ⁓ I thought it was interesting that that places like Bismarck and Jamestown and these rural communities with these ball clubs ⁓ which were semi pro were able to attract that talent. And you make the point that it might have been easier to pitch for ⁓ Bismarck than it was to play in the Negro League because you worked a little less ⁓ during that time period.
Bob Kendrick (16:11)
Absolutely. And you know what, Heidi, you touched on something that I think is really interesting. The true baseball fan didn't care what color you were. No, no, no. When Jackie joins Brooklyn, the people who came to boo him, they weren't baseball fans. They were haters. And they came expressively to do what they did. But the true baseball fan doesn't care. If you can help my team win, that's all that matters.
But, you know, they found a level of civility and respect as they moved into that part of the country where, like you mentioned earlier, they may have faced some racial strife, but not to the degree in which they were in other parts of the country. And I know people believe that, well, this wasn't happening in places like New York. Yes, it was. It was just more covert. Uh-huh. My friend Buck O'Neill again would say.
They would book a hotel, get to the hotel, and see that there's the sign said vacancies. Yet when they walked in to check into the hotel, all of a sudden there were no rooms available. There were no signs that said white only ⁓ or colored could stay here. But all of a sudden, there were no rooms available. Yeah, so in the South, it was certainly more overt.
But as you moved up that northern seaboard, it became more covert. But see, when these players got invited to places like Bismarck and Jamestown, they knew that they were black. The people knew that they were black, and they were coming to see great baseball talent. We've heard y'all could play, and we want to see what you got. And they delivered. And that's why you hear so many people have such fond memories, particularly when it comes to sack.
Because satchel pitched just about everywhere on the face of this planet. Yeah. And everybody has these fond memories of seeing satchel. And and that's part of the joy that I get out of the work that I do, particularly when I get that that baseball friend from that generation that comes in here and says, my grandfather warmed up satchel. Or, you know, my grandfather he he got in the battle's box and and and tried to hit Satchel.
Uh-huh. And and it's just you can see those memories cascading back to them and I just relish in that.
Joel Heitkamp (18:40)
⁓ Bob, do you think ⁓ okay, take like Satchel and some of the guys that that came here and played in the upper Midwest? were they a little out of their league in that these guys were good? These guys are really good. And with all due respect to the guys that were playing maybe in Bismarck and Jamestown, and yeah, now I started a fight again. ⁓ but for Satchel Page, ⁓ for Satchel Page,
Bob Kendrick (19:04)
Yeah.
Joel Heitkamp (19:08)
You know, his strikeout numbers could go up quite a bit playing at that level. And I'm wondering if that was an incentive at all, or if it was just money, or if it was breaking through that color line.
Bob Kendrick (19:21)
And it was a good payday. Yeah, they went where there was a payday. And and Saturn always went where there was a payday because he was gonna it was gonna he was going to be a draw. See, the talent in the Negro leagues wouldn't take a back seat to any league. So these guys knew that they could play. And really the major leaguers knew that they could play because they played countless exhibition games against one another.
Joel Heitkamp (19:29)
Ha ha ha ha.
Bob Kendrick (19:49)
And the record books bear out that the Negro League teams or the black all-star teams won the majority of those head-to-head matchups. And of course, guys, when they went to Spanish-speaking countries, there was no separation. When they went down to play winter ball, they all played together. So the major leaguers knew that they could play. I've always contended that the superstar Major League was never concerned.
About integration. Ted Williams, y'all, wasn't concerned about integration because Ted Williams could play. It was the average major leaguer that was concerned about integration, because if you allow this influx of both black and brown talent in, I might lose my job. Yeah. Uh-huh. And so fear had as much to do with this as the social conditions of our time.
And that is human nature. See, there was only a handful of these jobs available. So you wanted to protect those jobs as best as you could. But this is what we note. Great athletes appreciate great athletes. And the only way you can measure how good you are is by competing with and against the best. And I've always believed, if you remember this, it was Ted Williams upon his induction.
Into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1966, who used his platform to advocate on behalf of Negro League players' inclusion into the National Baseball Hall of Fame. He stood there and said, I hope someday the likes of Satchel Page and Josh Gibson will be inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame as symbols of those great black stars who are not there because they've never been given an opportunity.
Five years later, Satchel Page becomes the first player to go into the National Baseball Hall of Fame for his Negro Leagues career. Now Jackie was already in, but Jackie went in for his major league career, not that brief period of time that he spent in the Negro Leagues.
Joel Heitkamp (22:05)
Bob, what what role did the the war play in this? ⁓ you know, there's a lot of guys that are in your museum that that lost a lot of prime time playing because of the war. I mean, and so did so did many of the white players. I mean, you mentioned Ted Williams a couple of times. Ted was in many ways a war hero, but some of his best years were in a uniform for this country, some of his best playing years. It had to be the same way.
For the guys that you're honoring in that museum. And yet I would think that wearing the same uniform for this country could have broken down some of that barrier.
Bob Kendrick (22:43)
Well, in some ways, Joel, it did. Because if you were going to point to one single episode that led to the integration of Major League Baseball, I believe that it would be World War II. Because you had the sentiment, or in some cases, the irony in this case, of young black soldiers dying, fighting the ex same exact range.
racism in another country that they were being asked to accept here at home. And that really started the sentiment, well, if they can die fighting for their country, why can't they play baseball in this country? And I think that is part of the reason of what gave branch Ricky pun intended the ammunition to go get Jackie Robinson to be the guy to break the color barrier.
Yeah, World War II played a pivotal role in this. And there were a number of Negro League stars who went over for World War II. Now, every conflict that has seemingly take place that has involved US in it, there were black baseball players involved in it. You know, Willie Mace lost several years of his prime career, or he would have likely broken Babe Roof's record before my all-time favorite ball player Henry Aaron got it.
Joel Heitkamp (24:11)
Okay.
Bob Kendrick (24:13)
And of course, Willie May started his career as a 17-year-old center fielder for the Birmingham Black Barons in the Negro Leagues. And guys, if I'd have told you then that this 17-year-old kid would become arguably the greatest major leaguer of all time, people would have looked at me and said, Bob, you crazy. But that's exactly what happened. Or Henry Aaron.
Was an 18-year-old skinny cross-handed hitting shortstop for the Indianapolis Clowns. And again, for those who might be hearing that term cross-handed, in the case of Mr. Aaron, he was a right-handed hitter who was hitting with his left hand on top. That is unorthodox. The fears that you break the wrist hitting in that manner. Henry Aaron was knocking the cover off the baseball.
In a highly unorthodox fashion, when he gets to the clowns, they put the right hand on top, and the rest, as they say, is history. He was shortly after discovered by the Boston Braves, who will become the Milwaukee Braves, who of course would become the Atlanta Braves. Henry Aaron will go down in this sport as one of the game's all-time greatest players, but it all began in the Negro Leagues in 1952 with the Indianapolis Clowns.
Heidi Heitkamp (25:37)
Yeah. I wanna tell a story about ⁓ how baseball unites people even in the strangest of times. ⁓ you know, when I was in the Senate, ⁓ and Mitch McConnell and ⁓ my friend from Nevada, ⁓ Harry Reid. I I knew I'd get there. Harry Reid ⁓ were in pitch fights absolutely at each other's throat.
day after day. And then all of a sudden they announced a joint joint ⁓ luncheon. Democrats and Republicans all invited. Guess what united them? They both loved baseball. They both, they, you know, in in in Mitch's case, love baseball and and Harry's gone now. But ⁓ and they brought in ⁓ Hank Aaron and Frank Robinson who was my one of my dad's heroes and I I mean I just remember
being wide-eyed and just so excited. It's one of my fondest memories, but but I remember how baseball can unite a country and really be the best you know, we're celebrating the 250th anniversary and we've got to remember our past. But for baseball fans, it's about the talent. It's about watching a great pitcher or watching a great outfielder. It's it's about kind of measuring up in the debate. And you know, it even united ⁓ two
⁓ leaders in the United States Senate that were at each other's throats.
Bob Kendrick (27:11)
That's the beauty of baseball. There's no sport quite like it. And guys, I'm a fan of all of the sports. And I played a little bit of college basketball, small college basketball, but there's nothing quite like baseball. It is the by far the most romanticized sport of them all. We measure periods in our lives by baseball. And no history holds to, no sport, I should say, holds to his history.
way baseball does. So typically, whoever your favorite ball player was when you were a kid, they're gonna be your favorite ball player the rest of your life. And as I mentioned, Henry Aaron was my guy. Yeah, Henry Aaron was my all-time favorite baseball player, my childhood idol as a kid growing up in Crawfordville, Georgia. Crawfordville, Georgia is east of Atlanta, west of Augusta, all of 500 people and guys every day on the playground.
I had to be Henry Aaron. And now I know some other kids wanted to be Henry Aaron sometime, but I had to be Henry Aaron. And in 1999, I get the opportunity to walk my childhood idol through this museum. It is the first and only time I've ever been starstruck. And every time I was around him, I was reduced to that almost 12-year-old kid.
Who when he hit home run 715 there in Atlanta's Fulton County Stadium in 1974? I'm at home in my mother's living room in Crawfordville, Georgia. And guys, as he was circling the bases in Atlanta's Fulton County Stadium, I'm circling the bases right alongside him in my mother's living room. She had an old couch that was first base, the old TV was second base, the other old couch was third base, and her recliner was home plate.
And as he was touching them all, I'm touching them all. And there we were face to face. And to be honest, every time I was around him, I was reduced to that almost 12-year-old kid. And I I miss him tremendously. I miss him dearly. And what a blessing it was. Because most of us have sports heroes. And then the off chance that we get to meet them, they don't always live up to our lofty expectations.
But Henry Aaron far and away exceeded any expectation that this kid from Crawfordville, Georgia could have ever imagined. You know, it was always very special.
Heidi Heitkamp (29:49)
Yeah. And and you know, when you look at when you look at Hank Aaron and you look at the kind of vitriol when he was close to breaking ⁓ Bruce record, ⁓ and to still have so much love for your country and love for the sport, ⁓ you know, he could put all that aside. And so yeah, it it's a story that ⁓ needs to be told about resilience as well.
Bob Kendrick (30:12)
That whole level of resilience and perseverance and dedication and commitment and grace, those are all the hallmarks of this story. I used to ask Buck. I remember asking Buck this because Buck served in this in the Navy during World War II, Supic Bay, Philippines, in the Navy. And I asked him, I said, Well, Buck, what made you want to fight? And you know what his answer was? Very succinct, but very poignant.
Heidi Heitkamp (30:18)
And glass.
Bob Kendrick (30:42)
Because we were American. And there was this constant quest to prove how American are you, and what better way than service to your country? And to be honest, y'all, they were fighting for a country who at that time wasn't fighting for them. And yet they wanted to fight. Uh-huh. And and so that is the spirit that drives these kinds of stories.
Yeah, the grace in the face of adversity, what Jackie endured initially early on in that process. As I like to say, he was called everything, but as my mother would say, a child of God when he walked out on that field. And that was much to say for a lot of those guys, but somehow they were able to persevere and press on. And we need those kinds of stories. We need our children exposed to those kinds of stories of pride and passion and
Commitment, dedication, ⁓ because I think it prepares them to deal with whatever they may have to deal with, you know, as they grow into the future. And that is why this institution is so vitally important. And that is why we're planning to build a brand new Negro League Spaceball Museum. I tell people, Heidi, I am as excited as you could possibly be.
about having to raise fifty million dollars to build a new Negro league space.
Joel Heitkamp (32:10)
Well you've got a you've got a history, Bob, of being pretty doggone good at it. So I mean that you know, reading your bio, it it you I I I'm sitting on my wallet and I'm not gonna open it because I you know I know you're so so here here's another question, Bob. I know we're we're getting past the time that we asked you for, but you know the the Okay, good.
The the personalities of the players themselves. You mentioned a couple of them there. You know, Jackie Robinson wasn't a gladhander. I mean, he wasn't gonna rush over and shake hands and and be that person. Willie Mays, ⁓ I don't think he ever didn't have a smile on his face. Hank Aaron, ⁓ you look at what Hank Aaron did to promote the game, to make sure people understood what kind of person he was, but wasn't more wasn't there more of a
pressure on black players that that made that jump ⁓ to be ⁓ more showmen, for lack of a better way of putting it.
Bob Kendrick (33:17)
There was an immense amount of pressure on all of those black players, not just Jackie. But as I remind folks, Jackie Robinson literally and figuratively was carrying 21 million black folks on his back when he walked across those lines to play for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Because guys, you to understand that if he fails, an entire race of people would have failed. And that's an enormous amount of pressure for.
Anyone person to have to bear. But see, understand this aspect of it all as well. It wasn't just the racial hatred that he was confronted with. He was also carrying the hopes and aspirations of all black people in America. We were counting on Jackie to succeed. And as you guys know, baseball at its crux is a game of failure.
And he cannot fail. And again, how he handled himself with such grace, class, and dignity under extreme social pressure, and then carrying the weight of an entire race of people is really unfathomable. It's hard to re I asked his daughter Sharon once, I said, Do you think your dad really understood what he was signing up for? Because I don't know how someone would willingly
Take on that level of responsibility. But you know, it didn't get any easier for Larry Doby. Larry Doby would integrate the American League just weeks after Jackie breaks colorberry in the National League. Guys, he's a forgotten guy. He's the forgotten man. He would integrate the Cleveland Indians on July 5th of 1947. Uh-huh. And Larry Dobie would go through just as much. Some might argue even more than Jackie. So each of those.
Integration pioneers who would break their respective Major League color barriers, they all had to deal with a level of angst, you know, as they were transitioning into Major League Baseball. And somehow or another, they found the fortitude to be able to put the social pressure behind them, focus on the task at hand, and play great baseball. One of the most interesting factories that kinds of help people.
I d I believe helped people understand how impactful the Negro leagues were after the color barrier was broken. From nineteen forty-nine through nineteen fifty-nine, nine of eleven National League MVPs were former Negro League star.
Joel Heitkamp (36:02)
Think about that. Bob, when you look at some of what went along with all of this, Jackie Rollinson didn't belong at first base. I mean, he didn't. He didn't belong at first base. He how much, how often did they ⁓ end up, these these men who broke that barrier playing where they didn't belong playing because it would have made them so incredibly unpopular with a fan favorite?
Bob Kendrick (36:30)
Yeah, I think you saw a lot of that. You saw guys converted into outfielders and other positions like that. The shortstop position, the catcher's position were seen as cerebral positions. And there was this underlying belief that the black athlete wasn't smart enough to play those roles. because the catcher's position, as you both know, at that time, it's changed a little bit now. That was the position that was closest to the manager. And that's why you see you've seen so many catchers become managers.
Because they communicated on that level. And there were you didn't see a lot of catches from the Negro leagues that make it make it into Major League Baseball because there was this false narrative that they weren't smart enough to play that role. The catching position in the Negro Leagues was certainly was certainly just as good, some might argue, even better than that in the major leagues. You had great catches. Now Roy Campanella would get an opportunity to come over.
Well, Roy Campanella, guys, by the time he gets to the major leagues, he had been catching for almost 10 years. Roy Campanella joined a team in the Negro Leagues called the Baltimore E-Lite Giants. Now, it's spelled elite, but it's pronounced E-Lite. You make those Negro Leaguers mad if you call them the Elite Giants. They were the E Lite Giants. And Roy Campanella joins the E Lites, y'all, believe it or not, when he was 15 years old.
Can you imagine a 15-year-old kid catching professionally? Now, Campi was not your typical 15-year-old. He was a 15-year-old man child, but he was 15, nevertheless. And a great catcher in the Negro Leagues by the name of Raleigh Biz Mackey, he's in the National Baseball Hall of Fame, would take a young Roy Campanella under his wings and taught him the art of catching. And of course, as many of you may know.
Roy Campanella would become a three-time MVP for the Brooklyn Dodgers before a tragic car accident left him paralyzed and cut short what was still a Hall of Fame career. But if Campy was alive today, he would tell you that the greatest defensive catcher this sport has ever seen was likely James Raleigh Biz Mackey. Not a household name. Should be.
Not a household name. And I had to smile, Heidi, when you mentioned the South Side of Chicago, because a guy that was a fixture on the South Side at White Sox games all the time was the late great Ted Double Duty Radcliffe. ⁓ And Double Duty guys earned his nickname from the great sports writer Damon Runyon, who saw Duty catch a satchel page shutout in the first game of the doubleheader.
Pulled off the catcher's gear and took the mound and threw a shutout in the second game of the double header and said he was worth the price of two admissions. He was nicknamed Double Hader from that day on. He lived to be 103 before he passed away in 2005, there in Chicago. So there were great catches in that. But you know, again, the belief that we weren't smart enough to play that role.
Heidi Heitkamp (39:55)
To know, Bob, if ⁓ if I come to the museum, if I can walk around with you because you are a great storyteller. And you know, I think I think what we hope is that if people are passing through Kansas City or if they go out on the website and if they have a few pennies in their pocket and want to really appreciate ⁓ a part of baseball history, if you're a baseball fan, you can't
be a baseball fan without understanding the significance of the Negro leagues and what they contributed to the game and ⁓ the kind of ⁓ talent, but also strategy. I mean that's that's the your point that, you know, a catcher and Joel would say this 'cause he was a catcher and he thought he ran the baseball team, but you know
Joel Heitkamp (40:40)
You did. In those days, Bob is right. You yeah, dude the manager and you were the ones that ran and if you didn't like the manager, you just didn't look at him. So
Heidi Heitkamp (40:49)
Well, when I play when I played softball, I played catcher because it was the place for the worst player.
Joel Heitkamp (40:56)
Slop it's little bit if you weren't.
Heidi Heitkamp (40:59)
Yeah,
but if you weren't really good like my sisters, you you you caught. And and so that's okay. That I say that's why I have bad knees to this day. Anyway, Bob, it is just an absolute delight. And ⁓ 250 years. let's celebrate all of our history, not just the history that some people want us to understand and to know. Let's let's celebrate how far we've come ⁓ in American sport ⁓ to recognize talent.
Bob Kendrick (41:27)
You're so right. And and as I remind people, what stood at risk was that this story was going to die when that last Negro League left the face of this earth. We cannot allow that to happen. I tell my guests, and I mean it sincerely, the Negro League's Baseball Museum doesn't need to survive. It has to survive so that we don't lose this precious piece of baseball and Americana.
So that our children have a place where they can come and learn something that none of us were privy to during our own formal education. But again, y'all, not only learn it for its tremendously rich educational value, but I believe just as important its inspirational value. Because for me, if our children walk away from this story and they learn nothing other than this, what the Negro Leagues teaches us is very simple.
In this country, which is indeed the land of opportunity. If you dare to dream, and you believe in yourself, you can do or be anything you want to be. You see, guys, they dared to dream of playing baseball. They had no idea that they were making history. They didn't care about making history. They just wanted to play ball. But again, the pride, the passion, the
Perseverance, the determination, the courage that they demonstrated in the face of adversity. I remind my guests all the time: our story is not about the adversity, but rather what they did to overcome that adversity. And that's the real story. And it is indeed a transcending kind of story. It transcends race, it transcends age, and it transcends gender. So I do hope that.
Those listening will make their way to Kansas City to see me here at the Nebro Leagues Baseball Museum. You know you both got a standing invitation for a tour of this museum. It would be my esteemed honor. And again, for those who are listening, if you're so inclined, please visit us at www.nlbm.com to learn more about the legacy plays on campaign.
To build a brand new Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in memory of my friend Buck O'Neal. When I say this, every buck counts as we try to get to this fifty million dollar platform. So thank you guys so much for having me on the show.
Joel Heitkamp (44:09)
Bob, Bob, you both Heidi and I have done things that we may not be proud of, but our dad would be really proud of this and really jealous of this conversation. Thanks for joining us, Bob. And and I tell you what, I'm stopping by. And you know that you're welcome at the high camp campfire anytime, Bob.
Bob Kendrick (44:20)
Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (44:29)
Yeah.
Bob Kendrick (44:30)
Guys, I appreciate you both again. Thanks so much for having me.
Heidi Heitkamp (44:33)
My goodness, that was fun, Joel, to listen to Bob talk about this piece of Americana and to kind of relive even our childhood ⁓ as we spent a lot of time watching amateur baseball, spent a lot of time playing softball. This was part of, you know, growing up in a small town and so ⁓ fun, fun to listen.
Joel Heitkamp (44:56)
You know, and we've had a lot of great guests. And so I don't I hope they don't take this the wrong way, but that that has to be one of the most fun shows that I'm ever gonna get a chance to do. And and of course we we both know that there's a reason that we need to get get ourselves to Kansas City. And now there's two reasons that we need to get to Kansas City.
Heidi Heitkamp (45:17)
So, anyway, listeners, thank you so much for joining us on the hot dish brought to you by One Country Project.
Joel Heitkamp (45:24)
You can learn ⁓ more about us at one country project dot org. That's a dot org. ⁓ and be sure to follow us on Substack, YouTube, Facebook, and Blue Sky.
Heidi Heitkamp (45:35)
And we're gonna be back next week with more hot dish comfort food for middle America. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Bob Kendrick (45:43)
Topica.