Debt to Financial Freedom Podcast Episode 11 with Bob Andersen

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Ep 11 . Debt to Financial Freedom Podcast with Bob Andersen

Introducing Bob Andersen: The Property Mastermind 💼🏢

🔑 Meet Bob Andersen, the director of Property Mastermind, with over 39 years of experience in property development, property investment, and marketing sectors. 

💰 Bob's involvement in projects worth over 1.3 billion dollars showcases his expertise across diverse property types including commercial buildings, apartments, 

high rises, retirement complexes, subdivisions, townhouses, student accommodation, and NDIS projects. 

🏗️ At any given time, Bob has an impressive project pipeline ranging from 50 million to 80 million dollars. 

📚 As an author, Bob shares his wisdom in "Residential Real Estate Development: A Practical Guide for Beginners to Experts," along with contributions to acclaimed books 

like "The Secret of Secrets of Property Millionaires Exposed" and "The New Way to Make Money and Property Fast." #AuthorExtraordinaire

📰 Bob's insights have been featured in renowned publications including Your Property Investment Magazine, The Australian Property Investor Magazine, Money Magazine,

 and Success Magazine. 

🎥 Bob's expertise has been showcased through media appearances on Sky News, Fox News, BBC Radio, and ABC Radio, where he discusses his experiences as a successful

 property developer. 

💡 Through his renowned property development courses, Bob has transformed countless lives, empowering individuals to build substantial cash flow and long-term wealth 

through property development. 

✨ Join us as we dive into the world of Bob Andersen and unlock the secrets to success in property development! 

#PropertyMastermind #ProjectPipeline #MediaPresence #LifeChangingEducation #InfluentialContributor #ProjectDiversity #IndustryInsider #PropertyExpert 

What is Debt to Financial Freedom?

Welcome to the Debt Financial Freedom Podcast. Everyone loves the benefits of money, but so many of us avoid the hard truths about saving and investing. We wrongly assume we don’t have enough time, capital or knowledge to be able to get to the point of having passive income streams, savings, or investments.The things we really need to know about money aren’t taught in schools. Spending less than you earn, maximising your income, budgeting, taxes, mortgages, investments and passive income - if you didn’t learn these things from your family, then you’re probably like most people who rely on credit cards, buy now, pay later and overdrafts. And then when you want to invest or buy property you will be wondering why you can’t get approval.But there is no judgment from me here - I was in exactly the same situation! Huge debt, poor financial habits and no assets to my name. Step by step I turned my situation around and now, as a certified mortgage broker for 16 years with several investment properties in my name, I’m here to help you go from debt to financial freedom. Because if I can do it, you can too.In this podcast, I will share tips, insights and strategies from my own journey and experience, as well as my clients and guest experts, who share my values and mission to help others create financial freedom. My goal in this podcast is to share raw, honest, transparent, and helpful stories that you can relate to, and that will inspire you to take control of your finances. The only ‘good’ debt is debt that brings you closer to financial freedom and I will show you exactly how to achieve this. Everything shared by me and my guests in this podcast is general in nature, and for education purposes only. None of your personal objectives, financial situation, or needs have been taken into consideration. I highly recommend you seek personal, financial, legal, taxation, and credit advice before you take action on what you heard on this podcast.

Bob Andersen: So we can acquire
property, way cheaper than than

the normal person who simply
goes and buys finished product.

And that's how we build long
term wealth because that enabled

us to as developers to build a
substantial property portfolio.

But quicker than we can in the
normal retail market where we're

paying retail price.

Victor Lagos: Welcome to the
debt to financial freedom

I am great. Great to be here.

Listen, look, I
podcast. I'm your host, Victor

Lagos, and the founder of Lagos
Financial. I've been in the

finance and lending industry for
16 years, and I've personally

made financial mistakes and
learn from them. I started this

podcast to share stories and
lessons on my own journey, and

to share insights that may help
others on their journey. And I

interviewed people that I've
want to give a bit of an intro

to Bob for those who don't know
connected with that share the

same values and mission to help
others create financial freedom.

My goal this podcast is to share
raw, honest, transparent and

helpful stories that you can
relate to and inspires you to

take control of your finances
and only have debt that brings

you closer to financial freedom.

Welcome to the debt to financial
freedom podcast. I'm your host,

Victor Lagos. Today is episode
11. And I have Mr. Bob Andersen

on the show today. Hey, Bob, how
are you man?

who he is. Bob Andersen is the
director of property mastermind.

Bob Andersen has over 39 years
experience in development,

investment, and marketing
sectors of the property

industry. During this time, Bob
has had senior management roles

in some of Australia's largest
property development companies.

Bob has been involved in more
than 1.3 billion worth of

property development projects
that include commercial

buildings, apartments, high rise
buildings, retirement complexes,

land subdivisions, townhouses,
student accommodation, and NDIS

projects. At any time, Bob
typically has between 50 million

to 80 million worth of projects
in the pipeline. Bob is the

author of the book residential
real estate development, a

practical guide for beginners to
experts, and appears in other

books, The Secret of Secrets of
property millionaires exposed

and the new way to make money
and property fast. He has also

been a regular contributor to
different publications such as

your property investment
magazine, the Australian

property, Investor magazine,
Money Magazine, and Success

Magazine. He's appeared on media
interviews to talk about his

experience as a property
developer on Sky News, Fox News

for BBC Radio, and ABC Radio.

Bob has changed the lives of so
many people through his renowned

property development courses by
training them to use property

development as a vehicle to
build substantial cash flow, and

long term wealth. Wow. That's
very impressive.

Bob Andersen: But how is that a
mouthful? Oh, well, I've been

around for a while. So I guess
some, you know, slightly longer

story. Probably near 40. Yeah.

Yeah. Been a while in property
development. Yeah. Well, I

always say, if I if I often say
if I'd found something better to

do, I'd be doing it. But the
fact that I'm still doing it

after all these years is
probably testimony to property

development.

Victor Lagos: Yeah. Well, you're
obviously passionate about it.

And as you've said, well, as
your intro said, you've helped

many people along the way. But I
want to hear a little bit about

your personal and your and your
professional story. And what led

you to be a property developer
and to start property

mastermind.

Bob Andersen: Yeah, well, I
don't know. It all started with

a pretty serious car accident I
had when I was a young man, I

was on my way home from a march
21. Quite sober, in fact. But I

went to sleep about 4am in the
morning, and ran into a bridge

and that put me out of action
for I was on crutches for about

a year, and took about 18 months
to recuperate. So that gave me

lots of time to lie on my back
and contemplate my life. And

came to the realization I was
having a what I thought was a

pretty good life. I had a couple
of cash businesses, sort of

young entrepreneur, just living
for the moment really not

thinking too much about the
future. But it's funny what

happens when you have a near
death experience like that car

accident. In fact, when the
police arrived, they thought it

was dead. Pleased to say I
filled them. But yeah, it gave

me a lot of time to think about
things on my back and

recuperating and realize that
there's more to life than just

living a sort of life I was
living and I decided well, when

I when I get well, what am I
going to do and I thought a lot

about it up Property. I'd had a
little bit of a knowledge about

property but but really not much
at all. Shares sort of scared

me. I knew zero about shares.

But I knew a little bit about
property, because I lived in

one. But yeah, got back on my
feet. I thought, well, if I'm

gonna do property, where's the
money made? And I started to

have a look around and look at
real estate agents, I'd look at

valuers and all sorts of people.

And I came to the conclusion,
pretty sensibly that property

developers seem to make the most
money. So not even knowing how

to do and I thought, well,
property development, that'll

get me back on my legs because
we ended up having to move home

with my mum and dad while I was
recuperating. I think I had $5

in the bank, by the time I was
back on my legs again. And so I

thought, yep, I need money. And
so property development was

where it was going to be. I
spoke to a few people I knew I

did know through. A friend of my
dad's someone to do did some

small developments. I knew a
builder talk to them builders,

not developers, but I thought it
was somewhere near. And I also

thought, well, I lived in
Brisbane at the time. So I

thought I'll head to the Gold
Coast because I thought

everybody went to the Gold Coast
to make money. And not realizing

back in those days, probably
plenty of people went to the

Gold Coast and lost money. But
anyway, that you are young man

10 foot tall, bulletproof,
dangerous student, not even

knowing what I didn't know,
headed off to the Gold Coast and

unable to go straight into
property development, I went

into agency and I joined a real
estate agency at the back of the

Gold Coast at a place called
Marjory bar, which was selling

land estates. And that was my
first foray into real property

as such, and that was as a
salesman. But I was selling land

to builders and builders build
houses, and I was selling

builders houses and talking to
developers of the different

estates. And we're getting all
excited about the fact that I

could be one. And so that's,
that was my foray, I was lucky

enough to, to meet somebody
there at the time, who had some

land, they got an approval to
cut it into four lots. And then

they decided to sell it for that
subdivision. And I was, I was

looking at it to sell it. And
then I thought, gee, I'd love to

do this, this could be my first
chance, I went to the owner, and

I said, Look, I'd love to buy
it, I just don't have enough

money. And that person, Tony was
his name, gave me my first big

break. And he said, you don't
need money to do property

development, you just have to
know different strategies. And

and I ended up doing what we
later later came to know as a

vendor finance deal with Tony
where he sold me the land, took

me to his bank, in fact, helped
me finance it sold me the land I

I settled on the on the site, I
took possession of it. And using

the land as security, and Tony,
I gave him half the money. I

owed him the other half, which I
paid him back with interest when

I sold the land. And so typical,
what we call a vendor finance

deal, that got me going on my
legs, all of a sudden I made

money, didn't put any money in,
made some money, and I was away.

Can't say it was a smooth ride
from them, but says it's bumps

in his detours still does. But
that's, you know, property

development is you can make a
lot of money out of it. But you

got to do it. Right. And as
always, there's always things to

overcome, like any any business
really.

Victor Lagos: Yeah. Well, and
what led you to start property

mastermind?

Bob Andersen: Yeah, so property
mastermind is really the the

education, business. So we have
two businesses, I guess you

could say property mastermind is
an education where we teach

people how to be developers. And
we also are developers in our

own right. So it came about back
in the early 2000s. In fact,

when my son joined me after he
finished uni, and I thought, Oh,

that's great. I'll just buy him
a couple of books on property

development, it can bring him up
to pace and I couldn't find any

that were any good. And then I
thought, well, what courses are

they because remember, I was
just full time developing at

this point, I wasn't really
thinking of the education side

of it. Couldn't find any good
courses, there was sort of one

out there, which wasn't, wasn't
really much job. And then I

thought, well, there's a bit of
a hole there. And you know, over

a period of the next couple of
years, as you do when you're

out, you know, in the
marketplace, I did see a few

people who had gotten into
trouble doing things and I could

see that it was just a pure lack
of knowledge. They just didn't

have any experience, what they
were doing and I thought, well,

I should do something so
actually wrote a book in

released in 2006. It's out of
print. Now, it's been out of

print for a while, but it was it
was on property development, how

to do it. And then a couple of
years later, I thought well, I

might take that the next step
bet 2009 actually build a proper

course. Very early days on
online marketing have done

lineup was a solid course that
I'd sent out in the mail. It was

all, you know, CDs, it sounds
ancient now, you know, it's

probably only 14 years ago with,
you know, CDs and manuals. And

that was my, my first course,
got accepted pretty well. And,

and so I then started some
weekend workshops and, and then

I, I started a mentoring program
just for a limited amount of

people where I work personally
with people on the, you know,

helping them with with their
developments and sort of what

grew from there probably about
14 years ago, until we are what

we are now. So yeah, I guess the
point of it was like, I could

see that people really needed
education that wasn't there.

There's a lot more out there.

Now, of course, most people that
have property development

courses are actually our
students and but back in the

day, there wasn't anything
there. And I thought, well, if I

can get something decent out
there, people will be able to

always face make less mistakes,
get not get into trouble, but

ideally, on the positive side,
learn the ropes properly, and

make money and build wealth out
of property development.

Victor Lagos: And I've seen you
mentioned financial freedom as

well. And obviously the podcast
is called debt to financial

freedom. So my question is, what
does financial freedom mean to

you? And I guess, how do you
help your students and your

community to achieve that?

Bob Andersen: Yeah, I guess
means different things to

different people. But I mean,
financial freedom means that,

well, you you're in control, I
think you're in control of your

finances, you're in control of
your, of your situation. So

you're not at the whim,
necessarily, of markets, you're

not at the whim of, of society,
or, or what what society's

expectations are or view. So you
need to rise above that. But on

a personal point of view, I
mean, it means to be able to do

the sorts of things that you
want to do, when you want to do

them, where you want to do them
with whom you want to do them, I

guess, and to me that that comes
back to, to being in control. It

means having to work less. And
initially, if people are

transitioning from full time
into ultimately, you know,

living purely off their
investments, it doesn't happen

in five minutes to transitional
process, but ultimately, living

off passive income, and living
off the sort of life that you

want lifestyle. into, I think
everybody seeks a good

lifestyle. It's not the same for
everybody. But whatever people's

definition of his lifestyle, I
think it requires time, because

you need spare time sound good.

If you're working 80 hours a
week in a job, you're not gonna

have any spare time to enjoy
life. So it requires time and

requires money. Not that
everything enjoyable, is related

to money, some of the most
enjoyable things in life don't

actually cost money. But it's
great if you've got it. And so

if you've got time on your side,
and you've got money, then then

you can create a lifestyle. And
that lifestyle isn't isn't

partly building future wealth.

Of course, that's really
important. But it's also

enjoying life along the way, and
not slugging it out for 40 years

until your mid or late 60s
Before you can take a deep

breath and start to enjoy life.

I think.

Victor Lagos: Definitely
speaking my language there. But

so, you know,

Bob Andersen: I know. I followed
you and I know exactly how you

think. And we're like minded in
that respect for sure. Yeah.

Victor Lagos: Really appreciate
you sharing some of your

insights today. And I want to
ask you, I guess, how does

property development fit into,
you know, creating passive

income streams? Because
obviously, it's more about

profit, right? When you when you
subdivide land, when you when

you when you build and then you
sell? You're sort of cashing in

on that. So it's profit related?

How does that tie into creating
passive income streams?

Bob Andersen: But you are
correct, and that its profit

related? Because we don't do
property development if we don't

intend to make a profit. But I
suppose you could take one step

back, we're talking property
development. And property is a

great asset class. I love it.

Yeah, it's the one I got
involved in early in the piece.

That's the one I've stuck with.

And we know that property is a
good long term tax effective,

proven way of building wealth.

It's not the only one. I mean,
I'm not, you know, 100% property

and 0%. All other strategies,
you know, outside of property,

not at all. But it's the one I
chose, and it's the one that I

put most of my effort into. And
so we could say, well, I could

have chosen property, in my case
to build wealth, but property

development. Yes, we do intend
to make a profit and we do to

make a profit, certainly
intention. But when you sell

your product at the other end,
let's let's keep it really

simple. As an example. Let's say
we were to build a duplex. So

two units, we build a duplex.

We've got a have a number of
options at the end of that, we

could sell them both. We could
keep them both as investments,

or we could even do a mix, we
could sell one and keep one. And

that's one of the great things
to love about property

development is the flexibility
of being able to sell or, or to

keep what we create. So, if we
sell, we make a cash profit, and

we pay tax on that profit. And
we're left with that. And that's

the same as any business
operation where you have gross

income, less your expenses
equals your net, and you pay tax

on it, it's no different in
property development, except

that the numbers can be quite
substantial in terms of how much

it can make, I never worry about
paying tax, I'd love to pay more

tax next year than I did this
year, for instance, which means

I'm making more money. So don't
ever worry about tax, what

you're doing at cost is to be
structured the best way you can

to minimize your tax, but I
never worry about paying it. So

so what we sell, that's income,
and that's cash. And we need

cash, don't we we need, you
know, we have to go to Kohl's,

every week, whatever it is, and
buy our groceries, you got to

pay your utility bills, we the
lifestyle I just spoke about it

requires cash, you know when to
travel or when to help other

people, whatever, whatever we're
doing, we need cash, and we get

our cash from what we sell. But
what we want to do as

developers, if not immediately,
then along the way, you start to

keep some of the property that
we create. And this is how we

build long term wealth. Just as
you know, somebody out in the

normal market might buy property
investments for long term

wealth, they're looking at cash
flow, they're looking at capital

growth. Well, that's, that's
great. But a big advantage,

we're developers, we create
property at absolute real cost.

So we don't pay retail, we don't
even pay wholesale, we pay real

costs, we create it out of out
of well, when they're gonna say

out of nothing, but we created
more craftsmen. And that means

we're getting Yeah, exactly. So
we can acquire property, way

cheaper than than the normal
person who simply goes and buys

finished product. And that's how
we build long term wealth,

because that enabled us to as
developers to build a

substantial property portfolio,
but quicker than we can in the

normal retail market where we
paying retail price. So and so

as developers, when we finish
developing a product, we can use

our profit. At the other end,
when we finance and hold up, we

use that profit as our deposit.

So unlike the normal market,
where we pay retail price, we

have to pay deposit, we normally
do that by harvesting equity or

other properties that have grown
in value. And that's, that's

great. But we can do it a lot
quicker as property developers.

And so that's the long term
wealth thing. And we've got that

flexibility. We need cash, we
sell stuff, we build long term

wealth, we hold our product.

Yeah, it

Victor Lagos: makes sense. It
actually sounds like flexibility

and no brainer for anyone to do
property development. But and I

think it's one of those things
that if it was easy, everyone

would be doing it. And there are
inherent risks when you do

property development, of course.

And I want to ask you, from your
experience, because you've

obviously been doing it for a
long time. What are the biggest

risks for first time developers,
as well as experienced

developers?

Bob Andersen: Yeah, definitely,
for first time. First time

developers, it's going in there
with little or no knowledge. To

think that you can learn
everything about property

development, free online, you
can certainly find some good

articles and blogs, all sorts of
things there. But the detail

that you need to know to to
effectively do a property

development is not, it's not
just there. And so you need to

educate yourself and do a
property development course. For

sure, before you launch into
doing a development. And it's,

that's really important. And
that's where I see people going

going wrong, sometimes,
obviously, I'm out in the

marketplace quite a lot. We even
get calls from people or maybe a

little bit of trouble. And it's
often because they simply never

never educated themselves or
just launched into it. They

thought it's a good idea. I'll
sort of have a look around. I'll

try and reverse engineer what
I've seen other people do on the

sideline and, and that's how you
get into trouble. So that to me,

that's the most important thing.

That's the biggest risk. The
biggest mistake people make when

they when they're new. In terms
of experienced developers,

obviously, they've got past the
education stage, they've got

knowledge. Sometimes, I think
they extend themselves. When

I've seen developers, larger
developers get into into

trouble. It's often because
they've taken on too much or too

many projects. It's hard to say
no. Sometimes when you find

another good project and you
just jump in there quite often

that they really highly did.

They may be you know on I'm not
against, for instance, using

different layers of finance,
including mezzanine finance, but

but I've seen developers to get
the most out of their their

equity take on too many
projects, very highly geared,

you know, using senior debt and
mezzanine debt and at high

interest, and you know, you only
need a bit of a couple of

hiccups. And, you know, one gets
in trouble in there can be a

domino effect. So, I think there
needs to be a certain element of

conservatism. When respect when
you're doing property

development, and work within
your, your comfort zone, I'm

sure yourself, when you've
helped finance people into

development projects here,
you'll feel a lot more

comfortable when you know that
they're doing it safely. And

they're extending themselves to
the last cent. It's not a good

position to be in.

Victor Lagos: Yeah, definitely.

You've definitely touched on the
gearing and skills too much.

And, you know, banks, everyone
would like to get a bank loan,

because usually the cheapest
interest rates, you know,

they'll extend it over a longer
term. But the moment you start

building or developing property
for profit, when you start

going, say, three, four titles,
and more, it's considered

commercial lending, rather than
residential. And even if you're

building residential property,
from your experience, why would

you say that is?

Bob Andersen: Well, I think that
the banks and I'm talking about

the retail arm of a bank, which
is what you're referring to the,

you know, the lower interest,
the sort of banking that most

people are used to when they're
buying their house for an

investment property. So,
retailer, they make their money

by lower lower interest rates,
then over a long period of time.

So I'd love a 20 year 30 year
loan, if you still get 30 year

loans, I'm too old for that. But
low interest rate long term,

that's how they make their
money. And so if somebody was to

use that sort of Finance to do a
development, the bank wouldn't

make much out of it. It's such a
low interest rate. But for such

a short amount of time, I mean,
the loan might be 12 months, 18

months, whatever it is two years
at a low interest rate. And by

the time they wrote in their
upfront costs, and hearing that

probably, it's probably not
worth the bother. And that's why

I think that they're not all
that in favor, they're more

likely to send you off to their
commercial arm for a start,

where they make their money by
charging highest higher interest

rate for a short period of time.

But then, you and I know that
the banks have been pretty tough

the last few years, and you
can't always be guaranteed a

bank alone, even at the
commercial arm of a bank. And

fortunately, there is other
other resources outside of the

banking system for developers.

So I think that's the reason I
wanted

Victor Lagos: to touch on that a
little bit. Because a lot of

people have experienced dealing
with banks, first tier, second

tier, the retail, some of my
lessons, I've got experience

dealing with commercial finance
buying commercial properties

still buy and hold. But there
are non banks, and there's

private lenders that really hone
in on this space of development.

Why do you think it's their main
focus compared to the banks? Why

can they do stuff that the banks
can't?

Bob Andersen: Well, it's
probably one of the main reasons

is that the banks are very
conservative by nature. I mean,

they don't have to extend
themselves to make money, they

make so much money out of fees
for a start, you know, before

they even lend money at a
margin. So they do very well out

of fees. And then they make the
rest of the money or a lot of it

anyway, by by lending in a
margin above what, what the,

what they pay for the money, but
so they're not, they're not

really pushed for business so
much. And they can afford to

choose the sort of loans that
they want to lend on. So and

they've sitting in a pretty good
position to do that, though. The

price that they can acquire
capital app is quite cheap,

really, banks, both onshore and
offshore. So they get cheap

money, they can lend it out
cheaper. But and, you know,

there's there's a lot of housing
loans, of course, in the retail

area where they're just lending
on completed products. So the

difference between a property
developers are asking for

financial endless money on
something that doesn't yet exist

them in the land exists. But
we're saying well give us some

more money to build. And so at
the end of it, we have finished

product, but we're not starting
with finished product. So

there's a higher element of risk
for a lender in there. But with

So, banks, and banks, of course,
operate under under APRA. So

there's quite strict rules on
how banks can operate. But, you

know, when you move outside of
the banking sectors, as you will

know, I'm sure you you know, you
operate a lot in that, that non

bank sector, they're not under
the same rules. They're not

under APRA. They operate under
ASIC. So it's a different set of

rules. They pay more for their
money, and therefore they have

to lend it out at a higher rate.

They have to make a commercial
margin on, they don't have all

those fees on accounts that
normal banks have. So they have

to be very commercially minded.

And they are. And they'll
they've positioned themselves to

lend on deals that the banks
won't necessarily lend on

doesn't mean that they're a bad
deal, you can have a good a good

deal, put up to a bank, but
because of their rigidity, or

even because of a postcode,
they're just not going to lend

to you, but still a good deal.

And so the non bank stepped into
that space. And they take a big

part of the market, what I did
hear not long ago that in the

development finance sector, that
the non bank sector, everything

that's not a bank is supplies
about 80% of finance these days,

whereas many years ago, probably
the banks that supplied 80% of

development, finance, thank
goodness for the non banks, I

say,

Victor Lagos: Yes, and what many
people don't know, when you go

below the, the non banks who
were obviously non banks, you

know, still can be quite large
financial institutions that, you

know, fund managers backing
them. But then you've got

private lenders who don't even
report the acid, and they raise

capital from private investors,
high net worth individuals,

family offices, and they
basically pay them for their,

for their capital, or return on
their investment, with limited

risk, because they obviously are
providing credit contract to

fund a particular project,
potentially, but it's, it's

short term, it's, they're doing
their due diligence on the

borrower on the builder and the
developer, etc. And, and they're

putting a margin. So
essentially, they're not even

lending out their own money to
lending the middlemen. So, but

there's a lot of players in this
space. And, and I have heard

through the grapevine that many
of them are cowboys in that they

will look at a deal
commercially, and they'll know

the risks, and they'll know that
there's an opportunity for them

to take possession of the
property at the end, because

they know there's a chance a
very high chance they're not

going to be able to complete the
project. So then they'll want to

repossess it and take the
profit. So that's why I

typically steer away from a lot
of them, because I know, I don't

know them, they're not
reputable. So it does come down

to who you know, who's got a
proven track record and who's

endorsed by, you know, the
mortgage and finance industry

bodies and, and whatnot. So
what's your experience with, I

guess, sifting through this
array of private lenders out?

Bob Andersen: Yeah. Well, I
loosely break them up into

banks, which we've talked about,
then what do I call a non bank

is is often institutional to a
degree. And I'm certainly

looking for longevity. They're
not necessarily a play that's

come in recently, but it has
drawn in with because the banks

have been tight for some time
and has drawn in a lot of

players in the non bank sector.

I'm looking for people that have
been around that like, just like

you said, they've, they've got a
good track record, they've been

lending for quite a while. Value
valuation firms are happy to

work with them. Yeah, they're
just endorsed by the industry,

and they're fine. Moving into
private equity, like you

discussed that they're not under
APRA. They're not under assets.

So they pretty much write their
own rules. You have to be, they

have to be selected. And you're
right, there are there are some

lenders in that space, who are
looking for a reason for

default, you know, and so it's,
there are a few landmines there,

I think, what, what you need to
do. And my recommendation is

anybody starting out in property
development is to get their

finance through a broker. Every
day of the week, somebody who

understands development finance
for a start, and it's quite

different from retail finance.

And who knows the different
lenders and they can, if they

don't think that you're
appropriate for banks, and they

know a number of non banks,
reputable ones, who have a good

track record. And that's what I
always say, get your finance

through a broker, particularly
when in the in your early years,

and maybe even in the late
years, for that matter. But, and

they will know the places to go
to but also some of the ones

that have a reputation, not to
go to. I think that's that's

that's all part of having a good
team.

Victor Lagos: Which actually
leads me to my next question. I

always talk about having a
trusted network professionals as

part of your team to help you
achieve your goals. In property

development. This is even more
important because you've got a

much more I guess larger network
that required to execute a deal

from, you know, from concept to
completion and onto sale. So

what I want to ask you is, you
know, what are some of the key

professionals you will need in
your, in your team, when doing a

property development. I know
everyone will need a good

accountant that understands
property development, they'll

need a good lawyer that
understands, you know, the

structure. And if you're doing a
syndicate and involving other

people, there needs to be
certain agreements, and who's

going to manage what, you know,
who's going to distribute the

profit? How is it distributed?

What happens if someone dies,
etc, there's, there's quite a

lot involved in that side. But
then once you start looking at

the property itself, or the land
acquisition, there's a whole

bunch of other professionals
that even like most people would

never even need to deal with on
another, you know, in their

lifetime. So can you give some
listener?

Bob Andersen: Yeah, so spot on
there, you took the words out of

my mouth, there's, there's three
professionals that I would take

with me all the time. And that's
a good accountant, as you say,

understands tax structures, a
good lawyer, property lawyer,

and a good finance broker to me,
they just would travel around if

you'd like to, to different
projects, but but then you have

the project specific
professionals. And that's,

that's going to depend a lot on
the type of project. So the

simpler the project, the less
professionals that you need. And

to me, the, the smallest
property development that you

could do would be, let's say, a
two lot subdivision, we one mod

into a two into two lots and
pretty simple little team there.

I mean, in terms of the actual
rolling out of the development,

a town planner, a civil
engineer, and a surveyor will

handle all of that, they'll help
you get your approvals, they'll

help you also get the thing
built and finished. People both

into that would be perhaps
people like real estate agents

or buyer's agents that can help
you find the deal in the first

place. And also the marketing at
the other end, probably, once

again, it could be a real estate
agent to help yourself so that,

you know, both ends of it. But
in the middle, when you're

actually doing a development, it
could be as simple as two or

three people. But as soon as you
introduce construction to the

equation, it gets more complex.

And so to me, the simplest one
would be, perhaps when you do a

two lot subdivision and you
build a house on one or two of

the lots, that's, that's fairly
straightforward. Once now you're

introducing design. So you're
introducing, it could be a

project builder, who can handle
a lot of that the whole design

thing in house, or maybe not on
or duplex, let's say, that's

another simple one, two units
join it, I say a duplex is a is

a big house with a wall at the
middle of it. But once you

introduce construction, so there
might be an architect or

building designer to do the
design will have a town planner

near as well, we have a surveyor
and a landscape architect, and

they might be four, even five
professionals, we used to get

our approval, and then we'll
move on to our building permit

or our construction certificate.

Once again, the architects back
with a few more engineers in

there to help and a couple of
other consultants. So, you know,

we might end up on something
like a duplex for our full

approvals. We have five or six
different professional people

along the way. And then we move
into construction. Well, that's,

that's a builder, mostly during
that point, and perhaps a

quantity surveyor on the way
through and then at the other

end, well, we're back to, you
know, lawyers and marketers and

selling stuff. So a good team.

Yeah, I'd say a good teams is
the key to success. We've got

our core team of three that I
mentioned, including yourself,

and, and all these other ones
that don't, we may, we may

transport these other
professionals from project to

project but but sometimes if
we're doing a project in a

different location, we might use
a different term planner, a

different architect, or, you
know, a different type of

product. Maybe some somebody a
bit different if we're doing

some specialized development.

Like something like the NDR endo
is where we need a specialized

building designer who's very
familiar with very strict

requirements that are required.

So we might not always use the
same professionals in every

project. Other than our core of
three.

Victor Lagos: Sounds like
there's a lot of moving pieces

in a development the more when
there's construction involved.

It's there's obviously much more
required. If you're getting

private certifiers or if you're
having to go through through

counsel. There's there's
obviously development approvals

and they need to get me to go
through environmental code

sometimes there's quite a quite
a bit that you need to manage.

So if you're the developer, you
need to basically project manage

the whole thing or do would you
then hire a A PM, or DM

developed manager or project
manager to kind of do a lot of

that legwork that can navigate a
lot of moving parts at the same

time, and you just pay him a
fee, what would you say is a

better way of doing? Well?

Bob Andersen: Well, I personally
don't necessarily recommend

getting a project manager in to
run everything, mainly. I mean,

I'm not a control freak. But if
I'm getting somebody to manage

something for me, I want to know
actually how it works in the

first place. Otherwise, I'm not
going to know what they're

doing. And you're not going to
learn by engaging a project

manager because they're not in
the business of having people

hanging around and teach them
they just want to get in and get

paid, get the job done. So that
you can, I'm saying you can't,

you won't learn much doing that.

I've always liked the idea of
learning what to do. And then

you know, if you're outsourcing,
then to at least know what

you're doing. So at least do one
or two developments before you'd

look at outsourcing somebody
need to do everything,

otherwise, you're not really
going to know what they're

doing. Or if you if they
suddenly go fall under concrete

truck or something, they'll be
able to pick it up. But you can,

you can subcontract in a way.

And for instance, during your
approval process safer duplex

Sorry, I just have to cut dry
throat might be a.

bit dry, sorry,
happened to me to put my water

and have a drink
just go back to that. During the

approval process, you can
actually subcontract a bit. So

what I mean by that is the the
lead consultant with sign or

duplex it to me is the
architect. Some people might say

that's a template, but I'll go
with the architect and an

architect can coordinate that
process, they can work with the

town planner, with the surveyor
and with the landscape architect

to help get that approval. And
at the next stage, the building

permit or the construction
certificate, once again, they

can work with the different
consultants there. So they're

like a lead consultant. And so
in a way you can work directly

with the architect who can then
move to like, coordinate the

other consultants. So that's one
way of cutting back on your

workload, I'd still like to know
what everybody's doing. And if

you aren't leaving it up to one
person, then you need to be

right on top of the architect,
make sure they don't go to sleep

on the job either. So there is
that ability to cut your

workload back. But to me, the
best way is to learn property

development properly, do a
course get educated, do it

yourself, do a couple of
projects. And then if you want

to start subcontracting, or
particularly if you get a few

projects going and you got a
little bit of experience behind

you, then you can bring in a
project manager because you know

exactly what's going on, you
know what they're doing and be

over top of everything. And
you'll be able to, to actually

not be subservient to them. But
you are the developers, so they

need to work under you. They
need to do the job. They're

professionals, they know what to
do. But you really need to know

what's going on. That's, that's
the way I've always done it and,

and taught it.

Victor Lagos: Yeah. That's why
education is so important,

right? It's to equip you with
the knowledge and information

you need. So that, of course you
want to make informed decisions.

But it's so you know, to ask the
right questions to the

professionals that you seek out.

So you can guide them. And they
don't like you said they don't

lead you without you realizing
what they're doing, or they take

you for a ride. But I haven't
seen your course, I don't know

too much about it. Are you able
to sort of share what's

included? Or is it multiple
courses that you offer and

mentoring programs.

Bob Andersen: I try keep it
fairly simple. We do have a new

website coming out. Probably not
long after the this podcast goes

to in fact, probably within a
fortnight so but the current

ones got good information on it.

That's property
mastermind.com.au. The the

course that that most people do
is is a bundle of two courses.

It's an online course where you
can learn at your own pace as

fast or as slow as you like. And
it's a full aided set of

property development. So it's
got 40 years of experience built

into that course. It's good. And
also part of that course is a

three day workshop, which we
have one around mid year, which

we which we do on Zoom, and we
have one at the end of the year,

which is a live in person and at
second. It's a great three days.

So it's a combination of online
and the workshop. And that's

launched, watch plenty of
developers. And that information

about that is is on the website,
property mastermind.com.au But

yeah Yeah, you just, I can't
emphasize as much, you know,

hard enough that you really do
need to get educated, obviously,

I'm gonna push my own education
course, but get educated no

matter no matter who you go to,
don't just launch into property

development, because there's so
many little twists and turns. Or

alternatively, we do have a
mentoring program. And it's, it

is limited by numbers. That's
for people who really want their

handheld all the way. So they
work individually with, with

myself and, and to, to my team
members, Hillary as well. And so

we were on a daily basis, one on
one with people, that's people

who really want the confidence
of working closely with an

experienced developer, all the
way through to big safety net,

of course, for people and also,
they're going to learn really

fast how to be a full blooded
property developer. And that's

really the two main things that
we that we offer to get people

through safely and get them
making money. brilliant thing

about knowledge, once you've got
it, you don't have to keep

reinvesting in it. So generally,
it's something you acquire once

and and then you know, you're
away.

Victor Lagos: Yeah. And it
becomes applied knowledge rather

than just, you know, absorbing
information you buy mentoring

them, you're actually helping
them along the way giving them

feedback, and stopping them from
sort of jumping in because it's

so easy to, to like, make a
quick decision, thinking it's

the right thing to do commit to
something and then all of a

sudden, it's very hard to
unwind, and you're sort of

stuck, and you're losing money,
and you have to kill the deal,

potentially. So I think it's a
great thing that Yeah,

Bob Andersen: exactly. Yeah. One
of our mentoring students,

Jamie, Jamie was saying not not
long ago, he's, he's finished

the mentoring program now. But
he joined just as he was about

to go to contract on a site. And
he said that it wasn't a good

one, I had a look at it
straightaway. And he said that

that paid for mentoring program
in the first couple of days, and

I told him to kill the deal. Do
not sign that contract. So as

you just rightly said, it's not
just what you do, it's what you

don't do that matters as well.

Victor Lagos: Yeah, exactly. And
a lot of people will think you

need to have access to some
cash, right to start property

development, you need to have
equity in your properties. You

need to even have property. But
you mentioned that you did it

doing vendor finance, and where
you didn't put any money down.

And there's other ways of doing
it. I mentioned that earlier,

which is property syndicates, or
joint ventures, are you able to

sort of give an overview of how
that works? Exactly. And how you

guys can actually help
facilitate that? Because a lot

of people don't know the right
people or know what questions to

ask to get them involved in
putting money together to for a

site and for a development.

Bob Andersen: Yeah, quite true.

So I call those creative
strategies or creative finance,

I guess. And my first two
projects are exactly that.

Different models. But were those
and I've got to admit, I did

stumble through there. But I
managed, I survived my first

couple of projects. Got me off
to a good start. But yeah, so if

if we look at financing a
development, it's quite simple

that you have to put in a
certain amount of equity

upfront, then the financier will
put in the rest as a loan. And

that gives you enough money to
do a development. So that so

called creative strategies are
often around, well, where does

that equity come from that first
chunk of money that we have to

put down before the financier
tips in their money? And the

obvious answer is, well, if we
don't have it, it's got to come

from somewhere. So we're is
somewhere somewhere, it could be

another person, it could be an
investor, it could be somebody

who has that money, that amount
of money, that equity, but they

don't know how to do a property
development. In fact, they

probably don't even want to know
how to do a property development

necessarily. But they do like
the idea of making good money

out of a property development.

So it's, it's an investor so
that that model, in simplicity

is what I call a joint venture,
because it is a venture to make

money, it's jointly in this
case, it's between two people.

And so the developer partner, if
you like to develop a person,

well, they would have the
knowledge to do the development.

And they would basically do it,
they'd manage it, like find the

site, get the approvals, get it
built, get it sold. The other

person, the investor, well, they
would supply that, that cash

equity upfront, to make sure
that we could get the loan to do

it. And in its simplest form,
that's what it is. And that's

our way of doing it. Now. At the
end, of course, the project

makes a profit. And that profit
could be shared then between

those two people. So the
developer, well, they get a

chunk of the profit let's let's
say it was 50%, which can often

be they get 50% of the profit,
but they never put any money

into it. But they did put in No,
it was time and expertise, time

and knowledge if you like that,
and they got a great reward for

that without putting money in
the investors point of view,

well, they put up the money,
they get that money back at the

end plus, let's say 50% of the
profits. But they didn't have to

do the work. And they didn't
have to have the knowledge,

which in many cases don't. I
mean, that investor could be

your dentist, who knows, it
could be a doctor, it could be a

neighbor, it could be a
relative, it could be anybody.

And that gives them the
opportunity to making really

good money getting really good
return on their capital, without

doing the work. And vice versa.

It's very mutually beneficial
joint venture. That's, that's a

typical type of creative
strategy. It's not the only one,

but it's a popular one.

Victor Lagos: So my question is,
when you start to do larger

developments, and you need more
capital and more investors, and

so it gets a little bit more
complex in the structure, maybe

a unit trust, you know, you're
not necessarily giving away

profit, but you're paying
interest on loans, because most

of the deals being done, and
it's just needing sort of more

capital injections. Do you have?

Do you have ways to help your
students that go through your

either your mentoring or your
course, to present a information

memorandum, or some sort of
pitch deck to help them raise

the capital? Because you can
imagine a lot of questions for

an investor, especially if it is
your dentist and say, Oh, can

you give me 300 grand for
development? They're gonna want

to understand a lot about the
deal. And what are the risks

involved? What are the potential
uplift and the timeframes return

of their capital, etc? Like, is
that something you guys help

with as well?

Bob Andersen: Yeah, so So in the
course, that I mentioned

previously, I've got a, I've got
a course within a course you

could say on a range of these
creative strategies, I've chosen

five, five, quite common sort of
ones to do. And that's in the

course as to how they roll out.

Within our mentoring program, we
also go into that in an even

deeper level, and we help people
we help, we often help people

find investors in that case, in
our mentoring program. And

investors often like the idea,
if they do invest in a project,

particularly somebody like
myself, who's overviewing it,

who has done 1.3 billion, I've
actually worked out that I've

done over $300 million worth of
projects off a creative manner

where we put the money in a
drawer and various ones, some

with just little mums and dads
investors and a couple of with

ASX listed companies as well,
and even a couple of government

departments. So So you know, you
can graduate up into that. But

yeah, we, I certainly teach
that. I was doing syndicates

back in the late 80s. And, in
fact, even prior to that, as I

mentioned, my first two
projects, the first one was what

we call a vendor finance type
strategy. And the second one I

did was the one I just talked
about a moment ago, it was a

joint venture with an equity
partner where the person that

put the money in was my sister's
boyfriend at the time. And she

had a she had a boyfriend called
Keith, who was an earthmover, he

had a few dollars, and he saw me
make quite a chunk of money out

of my first project when the
vendor finance one. And he said,

My goodness, how'd you do that?

And I said, pretty clever case.

I said, which wasn't really
because I did stumble through

it. But and, and got a bit of
help from the from the seller as

well. And I said, Look, I'm
happy to do a deal with you, if

you've got some money and true
to form, Keith put up the money,

the equity. On the second
project, we borrowed the rest of

the money from the financing.

And I did a second one. So I've
done my first two projects, two

different strategies without
putting five cents in the deal.

That gave me a love of, of that
type of years of structured and

fine tune many different ways of
making money out of out of out

of zero, I suppose zero equity,
you know, and syndicates and

joint ventures with landowners
and using call options, all

sorts of things. All we do. Of
course,

Victor Lagos: yeah, we don't
even touch on that right call

options and options trading. So
when you when you basically have

the rights to a property without
owning it. Yeah, look, we can

always do the more detailed
conversation. We can probably

talk for hours about this. But a
couple of more questions before

we wrap it up. With a question
is with the current interest

rate environment that we're in,
there's obviously a higher cost

of living, high cost of
materials for for construction,

global inflation that were going
on. Would you say it's a

challenging time for developers
right now? Or would you say it's

a good time to find
opportunities?

Bob Andersen: Well, we have gone
through quite a challenging

time. Now Coming out of the out
of the pandemic, talk a little

while ago now almost forgotten
about that's funny here, here we

get on with their life, isn't it
now sort of don't think about

that too much. But that created
some some issues. Of course, it

was it was more of a
reconstruction after that, that

created a lot of a lot of growth
in the market, it created a lot

of increased costs of
construction. And so we've been

through the worst of that we've
had some very rapid rises, then,

you know, 2122, and even a bit
into 23. of large increases in

construction prices, shortages
of labor, shortages of

materials. A lot of that, it's
not back to what it was, but it

has improved quite a bit, I deal
with a lot of builders, of

course, a lot of quantity
surveyors, certainly, material

suppliers improved a lot. Labor
has improved quite a bit, we did

have those large price
increases. And while values went

up a lot, it was mainly housing
that went up a lot in value

townhouses did to a degree
apartments did to a degree, but

not as much. That's because all
the stimulus from the government

was directed at short term
remedies, which really meant

more quick, quick builds and
housing and that sort of stuff

rather than longer term builds
with townhouse developments and

the like so but that, like
everything, if, if you leave it

alone, it'll find its own level.

And so it's going back to that
now. So built, build costs have

stabilized to a fair degree,
they're still going up a little

bit. But if you look at some of
the big quantity surveyor firms,

they're only predicting three
and 4% increases during the next

12 months. So, you know, the
worst is certainly past in terms

of construction pricing. And I
have noticed, even talking to

some of our builders, that some
of the trades have actually come

back a little bit in their
rates. But look, it is what it

is. Interest rates were we've
seen them rise, but you know,

they were never going to stay
where they weren't my goodness,

that's I couldn't believe how
low they got. Never seen

anything like that in 40 years.

I should point out my one a
couple of my very early

projects, I paid over 20%
interest back in the early 80s.

For money. There was a credit
squeeze on so you know, that

doesn't six or 7% Doesn't
8% 9% 10% on on non banks. Yeah,

that doesn't frighten me at all.

I've made good money in higher
interest rate regimes. So it's

just getting back, you know, it
hasn't reached the 30 year

average interest rates, standard
variable rate, it is what it is.

We'll get used to it again,
inflation slowly getting under

under control. We've seen it
drop a bit, it'll get back to

that sort of 3% and probably 18
months, in my opinion, interest

rates, I don't think they've got
much more to go. And I think I

think they're leaving a little
bit of a headroom for a pullback

in rates maybe sometime next
year. But we'll see. But I'm

happy enough with with interest
rates, they are what they are.

There's a lot of other things
you do in property development

that you can control and make
the price of money is just just

price of doing business. Really.

It's all about getting out there
and understanding property

development, looking in the
right places for the right

deals, doing your job Geralyn is
giving correct due diligence.

And look, there's still deals to
be found out there. Yeah, we got

we get students we are searching
for sure. And when we're looking

for a good project to do we
throw a lot in the rubbish bin,

you got to be prepared to do
that. And to find the ones that

really work. And when they work,
well, you jump on them. And

that's there are deals out
there. But it's improving.

Obviously, it's migration and
went back to zero. And that's

always been a big driver of of
our markets. I've got a housing

market and capital growth. And
so that's, that's on the

increase and look looking for
future the next couple of years

for overseas migration is quite
enormous. And the big winners of

that often Sydney and Melbourne,
but but the other capital cities

as well get get some get a feed
out of that. And so I think it's

much better times ahead as
things settle down. And

nationally, we've still suffered
a housing shortage we have since

1944. And with a lot more
overseas migration coming in,

and they're wealthier people are
overseas migrants, they don't

move into the housing market.

They'll move into the rental
market, which is really tight,

but they'll also buy. And so
yeah, I think it's I think it's

good time to hit. But sensibly,
always sensibly.

Victor Lagos: One of the my past
guests is a friend of mine, and

I think she might have done the
course with you, Dr. V on PE.

And oh, do

Bob Andersen: you want Yes. One
of my mentoring students from

the past.

Victor Lagos: Yeah, she's great.

And she's just doing some really
good stuff in the affordable

housing space. And I think it's
important when you're looking at

property development and you
know, you're gonna make a lot of

money but it's it's not just
about the money you're you're

making. It's who you're
impacting. From that

development, are you providing
housing to people that really

need it, especially with the
cost of rent going up

everywhere, and more and more
homelessness going on at the

moment. So there are different
things, properties, style of

properties that you can develop,
whether it is, you know,

specialized, like NDIS, to help,
you know, disability support, or

it can be co living
arrangements. So, you know,

multiple, self contained units
within one house, so you're

helping the community and
keeping the cost of rent down,

as well. So, I think I'd
encourage anyone out there to

really start, you know, looking
and learning more and more about

this space, if you're
interested. And I really wanted

to just sort of wrap it up and
just mention that to our

listeners, we want to offer, you
know, a 10% discount on, you

know, on your, on your course,
or your online course. And

you're going to put together a
discount code, which is Victor

10. So 10% Victor 10, when
you're basically on on the new

website, property, what is
what's your website called,

again?

Bob Andersen: property, property
mastermind.com.au.

Victor Lagos: Property
mastermind.com.au. And when you

select a course, just make sure
you put in that discount code,

I'll put it into the show notes.

And and I just wanted to ask one
more question about your

mentoring because Hillary she
she's comes more from a coaching

background and a lot to do with
mindset. She's your business

partner that she helped more on
the on the mentoring side.

Bob Andersen: Yeah, she does as
well, should my business partner

in my life partner, actually, as
it turns out, so I scored, I

scored big T times there. But
yeah, Hillary has a, he has a

long history in in coaching, but
also property, she's involved in

three developments at the moment
still sit down a lot of rent

owes, I think he's done about 23
renovations in a time. So she,

she bought her first property at
80. So she's, she's all into

property, but but coaching and
performance coaching, mindset

coaching as well, she's been
doing that for many, many years.

And so that's the other
component, I'm sure you'd agree

that you have to be successful
in any field. It's not just

filling your head with
knowledge, you have to apply it

and reply rigorously, but also
everything else that goes with

it planning, you have to have a
plan, you have to be true to

your plan. And you have to be
accountable to your plan for

that matter. And, and also, you
know, be in the right space,

head wise. And so property
development is not just about

absorbing all the knowledge of
property development. And we

realize that and therefore we
our mentoring program, Hilary

works with with people as well
to help them get organized to

and every everybody's different.

Everybody is going at a
different pace. And we're all

going in the same direction in
terms of property development,

but not everybody is the same
different social situations,

financial situations, age work,
everything. And so we sort of

customize a program to suit the
individual and heal is at the

forefront with all of that. And
it's very interesting person in

terms of, you know, supplying
that that missing ingredient,

that six inches of real estate
between your ears, which is

critical to success, you know,
not just the head knowledge of

property development. That's a
good combo. I think

Victor Lagos: you guys have
figured it out. And it's such an

important piece because my last
guest, his name is Scott

Robinson, he's called the brain
guy, the episode will air

shortly and he really talks
about, you know, your beliefs

and your mindset. And it's so
important because if someone's

come hasn't been born into
wealth, and they're seeking

financial freedom, they've got
some unconscious beliefs and

patterns and paradigms that sort
of keep them where they're at

and keep the ceiling of, of what
they achieved financially at

that same level. So they do
actually need some help to break

through those internal barriers
and reprogram themselves for

success reprogram themselves for
for worthiness, right, because

imagine you had no money your
whole life. And now all of a

sudden you find Bob and Hillary
and they're offering you a

pathway to earn millions
potentially, and you've come

from zero and the minus. It's
such a big shock to kind of

comprehend and, and believe that
you're worthy of earning that

because no one in your family
ever has. You've never had that

you've never had any
opportunities for that. But you

want that right, deep down, you
want financial freedom, you know

that you're capable of doing it.

But you want to feel like you,
you believe it, and you deserve

it. So that's why it's so
important to get that mindset,

right. And, you know, I want to
acknowledge you for the work

that you do, the amount of years
you've put into this amount of

people that you've helped. You
and Hillary are doing a great

thing and I'm really glad to
have you on the show today and

to get to know you more and to
be able to offer our listeners

that discount because I think if
if you're listening and this is

something that you deep down
believe you're you're capable of

doing, you know, jump on. And if
you want to connect to Bob and

the team, where else can What
else can they find you?

Bob Andersen: Well, well
certainly, we're on all the

platforms. Yeah, Facebook,
LinkedIn, Instagram, you name

it, we're there. It is a good
place to start it at the website

can have a look at our products,
but also, contact us send us an

email phone, we got our 1300
number there, we'll, we'll have

a chat about your aspirations
and you know how we might be

able to help with those.

Victor Lagos: I'll probably sign
up for that mentoring course, in

the coming months, I'd say.

Awesome. Thanks so much. Well,
thanks, everyone for tuning in.

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