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A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!
Matthew Mills (00:00.637)
Hey guys and welcome to the new episode of ClearCom. Today we're joined by two special guests, Light and IamAvenue. Welcome guys, how y'all doing?
Lyte (00:08.43)
Doing good bro, how you doing?
Avenue (00:09.701)
Doing good,
Matthew Mills (00:11.455)
What's up, what's up? Well, yeah, so we're almost done. The book's almost closed on season four, patch 4.5. And then we got, Daredevil, we got a lot of new, the new map, a lot of new changes. How do y'all feel so far? I'm gonna ask you light first. How do you feel about Daredevil? How do you feel about this last end of the season?
Lyte (00:34.84)
You know, I actually feel like really, really good about this season compared to last. Like I thought I was going to be a lot more negative when you initially DM'd me about coming on. But over time, think this is like, I think the game is in like a great state, but it's the best state that it's been in a very long time. Especially like the season three. I think season three was the worst season that we've had as far as like how miserable it was to play against Emma, her peak strength and Torch and all these other characters. But Day of the Wealth in particular, I think is like a really, really refreshing addition to the game.
because we finally have a melee character that beats these hitscans at close range and actually shuts down the flanking Hela, the flanking Jean, the Black Widow. You can actually do something to these hitscans. And Captain Coach, I'm sure that you could chime in as well as a Hulk player, how miserable it is to play Hulk against Bucky, Emma, Hela, Namor, all these ranged characters that your character should be good into but just isn't because of how overtuned they are.
CaptainCoach (01:27.097)
Coach Mills, told me this guy was a season four hater, bro. This is a lot of positivity. This is great. Yeah,
Matthew Mills (01:31.587)
yeah, yeah, no, no, no. Well, yeah, there's lots of negative out. So one of the big things that I learned about life from is there's a big clip that went viral where he was talking about Jean when Jean was like at her massive strength. And it was like a big rant where he was talking about Jean having no weaknesses. This was back when Jean had the melee tech and all that stuff. And so that went really viral. And I was like, yeah, yeah, this is bullshit. mean, Jean was just so overtuned. And I think the change they did to her
Lyte (01:33.486)
No, the negat- we'll get into the negativity, don't worry.
Avenue (01:36.951)
You're not.
Lyte (01:46.721)
yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:52.899)
Hmm.
CaptainCoach (01:58.042)
Well...
Avenue (01:59.365)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (02:00.767)
It worked. mean, it thinks she's fine. She's fine. Still really strong.
CaptainCoach (02:04.721)
It's interesting, right, because I think that Gene was more overpowered than Daredevil is right now. Yeah, Daredevil's win rate's quite a bit higher, I believe, at this point in its life. I do too. Well, I mean, do wanna give your thoughts on why that is,
Lyte (02:12.686)
I agree.
Avenue (02:15.011)
I think Daredevil's broken.
Matthew Mills (02:19.623)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, throw in.
Avenue (02:21.911)
Yeah, mean, I mean, Daredevil is very, he's a very unique character because he could do like literally everything, you know, he isn't just like a dive based melee. He's anti dive. He can brawl a bit. Like he's done. He could do everything and he could do everything well too. If they have a side lock and they're running just mad dive, you can just pick Daredevil. Cancel out the side lock, let your team know where she's at. If you want to dive with Daredevil, you can run a dive cop and do everything. You can literally do everything well in that character.
And that's what makes him so strong in my opinion. you can't, don't like, I'm very glad they released Daredevil, but at a certain point they definitely got a nerf him because you can't do everything and you can't do everything well. You know, you have to have a specific role and a character like Daredevil can, they release more characters like that and they keep them in that state. The game could, I mean, be really good if everybody's broken, the game's balanced, right? But at this current state, if they keep releasing characters like that.
It could, the game could feel pretty bad again, but so far the game feels great.
CaptainCoach (03:21.357)
I have a question for either of you. Do you think part of the reason Daredevil is finding a lot of success right now? Like I totally agree with you. I obviously think he's really overtune, but he also just kind of has more of a generic, just usable kit that can kind of be applied to any game. Like you said, like any situation, is it more that he's good because of the design of his character? Like someone like Spider-Man obviously has like limited uses in a lot of situations because sometimes you're like
Maybe you just need a certain amount of damage. He doesn't give you enough. I feel like Daredevil is very versatile and that's part of the reason he's so good. How much do you think it's like the tuning of him? Like the numbers of his shielding and stuff versus just his overall design?
Avenue (04:02.661)
Honestly, they know how they would nerf daredevil like I really don't maybe just nerf the burst damage on him but like Because his character like the kid the way he plays is very cool I just don't know like they can't get rid of like Because like the reason why he's so good with anti-dive is because he could see through walls and he can brawl like anyone in the game But there is why he's good at diving is because he's really tanky and he has really good burst damage So I don't know and he's very good at getting in and out So I don't know how they'll burst nerf daredevil unlike besides like making him like
His burst damage weaker or just lowering his HP or something.
Matthew Mills (04:33.331)
I'll let you know, I'll ask you in a second, like, cause I know you play a ton of Daredevil and you're probably the biggest expert on the character right now, out the four of us. But I think that he's, he's good, but like the, biggest problem with him is his survivability. And we're seeing that a lot where there's just a, there's not that many windows to punish him, especially we're even seeing that in pro play where when he's being backed by certain types of utility, he can just pretty much always live. can always get out of situations. He's never going to be first dead. And so he can go for these like hyper
Normally risky plays for like a melee character to make where it's high risk high reward But it's just like no risk for him with that level of burst damage Like I think you could probably turn down his survivability just like just a little bit and the character still really good in the right hands It's just like more windows to interact with him with his reflect is super forgiving. It's like a massive hitbox I'm just like I'm remembering it of Genji like Genji was like a lot smaller and there's ways to like stun it and interrupt it but like daredevils is like
all around him and it's like extremely hard to do damage to it.
CaptainCoach (05:33.015)
It lasts way too long. It lasts way too long in my opinion.
Avenue (05:36.399)
But I'm glad the character's broken. Like, I'm actually glad. Like, we have a good character on release, though. Like, I'm very happy with that.
Lyte (05:41.172)
I think Daredevil is actually one of the most important heroes in the game right now to the health of the game. If Daredevil came out weak like Blade did, the game would be so much worse and we would be playing Hela Neymar every single game. And to me, in my opinion, but I think a lot of people share this opinion as well, the worst state of rivals or any hero shooter is when you have sniper mirrors. No one likes getting one shot across the map and at least with dive, there's more interactivity. Or least Daredevil being in the game...
CaptainCoach (06:05.336)
Hmm.
Lyte (06:10.05)
he can check those characters so we can actually have different types of styles of play that are allowed to be in the game. And Daredevil and Angela together are what allows dive to be as strong as it is right now. And I watch every single pro player, I watch every Ignite match on stream. I'm still really good friends with basically like I have a friend on every single team of like everywhere. And like a big conversation that I had after Ignite was like people realized that Daredevil was such a critical component to the success of VP and Na'Vi as well.
And it's why FlyQuest lost because FlyQuest can't play dive. And because they can't play dive, it comes to a situation where you could ban Psylocke, you could ban both dive tanks, but Angela and Daredevil are still threats. And what would happen is Psylocke is best in slot DPS. You pair that with Daredevil. And if Daredevil and Psylocke are together with any dive tank at all, it immediately disables the ability for Hela, Namor, Jean Grey, Bucky, all these other characters who just take over the game. So if he's not there at his strength right now, the game instantly becomes watered down front to back.
Avenue (07:08.132)
Yeah.
Lyte (07:08.972)
And he's already weak into Groot and Emma, so it's like, I could see why people want Daredevil to be nerfed, especially in ranked, because he's such a wind-harder character. He's a very Smurf, Black Panther-esque type of character. But if they nerf him, they have to take down these other characters too. They have to.
Avenue (07:22.649)
Facts, yeah. That's the thing, they have to nerf everybody if they're doing that.
Matthew Mills (07:24.969)
What about the, I think the wall hacks variation of like, the strength of his wall hacks though, that he could do without that and he would still be extremely strong into like the poke compositions. That just makes him really good against a lot of the other dive compositions. And so like, I think that they could probably tweak his strengths to still be really good against the Helen Amores, but maybe open up some more room for some of these other divers. What do think about that?
Lyte (07:48.812)
I think they're just like...
Matthew Mills (07:51.327)
Or do you think you are just like, fuck it, like finally we have a melee DPS that's good and not like, like I get that too.
Lyte (07:55.512)
Yeah, I mean this season is like the first time, yeah this season is like the first time where we've actually had two viable melee DPS. Like every other season melee DPS have been way worse than the range options, but like Iron Fist and Daredevil are actually viable and pickable characters in professional play in every rank. You can actually make them work. Which is really really refreshing because for the longest time, magic is horrible, panther is horrible, spider-man is horrible, Iron Fist is horrible, down the line, know?
I don't really consider lower elos. I understand Black Panther is a major problem and very poorly designed because of how chaotic he is. everything is good in low elo basically. It's always a skill issue in gold, plat, etc. And you could just pick Ultron and win the game. You don't even have to be good at the game. You pick Ultron against Black Panther, throw a drone on your support and forget about it. You don't even have to hit your shots. He just can't kill through it, he can't kill you.
CaptainCoach (08:52.975)
Do you think that like dive has to be kind of OP for that reason, because it's like, you know, as a higher rank you get aim gets better. So naturally, you know, they're going to get punished harder for the types of dives they make. I I think that's why those characters are so good right now is because they have a higher effective health than all the other characters. So they can't just get popped, right? So like, do you think they have to kind of be overtuned for them to work in like a competitive scene?
Lyte (09:01.08)
Mm-hmm.
Lyte (09:16.002)
With how overtuned hitscans are, yeah. Like, absolute, like, look at Bucky and Gene's kits. Like, it's unbelievable what Gene Gray still has, bro.
Avenue (09:17.942)
Yeah.
Avenue (09:22.019)
You have to match the, if you're going to make the hit skin and the, like the poke so strong, mean, like just make the melee so strong as well. So it's an even trade off and anybody can play. Like it just becomes versatile that way.
Lyte (09:30.67)
Yes, Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, it's crazy. Sorry to cut you off, but just like this one point that I really want to hammer home for everyone to understand, I made a video about this a couple weeks ago, but Rivals, for whatever reason, they've decided to give all their ranged poke characters like Hela, Jean, et cetera, they had them stuns and mobility and high range damage. So it's like, if I'm playing Black Panther, I have to go in and close the gap or I lose the game.
Especially if I'm playing against a hella because it's 6v5 she has a gun and I don't but I lose in close range as a melee character So like what am I doing playing a melee character because hella has a stun and a frame one I frame and an escape and an alt that like instantly resets her health and shit like with well I guess it doesn't reset her health but like you guys know what I'm saying. It does for Jean Don't give me sorry. I'm Jean Grey, but it's like the design of these range characters It's just unbelievable what they're allowed to do like if hella didn't have a stun
CaptainCoach (10:08.046)
Yeah
Matthew Mills (10:10.303)
You
Avenue (10:10.735)
Yeah, it's true.
CaptainCoach (10:13.157)
Ha ha.
Avenue (10:20.867)
GD, I'm broken.
CaptainCoach (10:20.891)
dude, dude I gotta-
Lyte (10:28.322)
We could tone down Panther, we could tone down Iron Fist Spider, like all this, like it's fine because those characters wouldn't need, like they would win at close range as they should, but they just don't because Hela has a stun. Like why?
CaptainCoach (10:38.661)
I have a note you wanted to say something about Gene.
Avenue (10:41.711)
well, I don't know, man. Like I said, a lot of these characters are just like, they cater to, I don't know, like I can be a, realistically, could be like a GM player in Rivals, but if I play Bucky, I can literally just brute force my way into Celestial or like, it's just so stupid. Especially when GM was busted in her peak, was just like, that's another example of just an overtune character. And I kind of hate that. I feel like Rivals is like,
Lyte (10:58.124)
Yeah bro. Yeah legit.
Avenue (11:11.193)
has an identity crisis because I feel like if you're going to cater to casual players, then what was the point of having like an e-sports organization for like, you know what mean? Like it's just, it's so stupid. It's yeah, it's so dumb. It's like, can you pick your side? Like pick your poison, bro. Do you want to have a casual game that you can make characters just absolutely broken and help the players and, or do you want a competitive game where everything is like pretty much balanced and like it's, it's more competitive. You know, I feel like Rivalous just has an identity crisis and like, I feel like
Lyte (11:20.436)
Yeah, that they're just dumping millions of dollars into.
Avenue (11:42.325)
like Jean Grey can like passively heal like that's just so stupid like it's just so dumb even like she's not even broken right now but the fact that that character can just passively heal and just like you're just forgiven off of making stupid plays like it's just
Lyte (11:45.122)
Yeah, I liked it.
CaptainCoach (11:46.842)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (11:53.983)
It annoys the fuck out of me that she gets to get back to full health and just sit in her ultimate like for no reason like what Why is she not the same health that she went into an ultimate when she pressed? I think that that's like an easy change to make
Lyte (11:59.618)
Yeah bro, and the alt one shots, the... yeah. Yeah.
Avenue (12:00.441)
It-
CaptainCoach (12:05.429)
as a a as a hulk player i mean you guys keep keep saying you need to like buff everything or nerf it i that's kind how i felt with hulk like i think he needs everybody to be nerfed everyone because everyone always asks me like what would i do to hulk and i just say nerf everybody but i'm at the point now where i'm just like you yeah at this point but yeah about the gene thing so obviously we all know about her melee combo that they removed from the game that made it
Avenue (12:06.885)
I know.
Lyte (12:20.192)
Yeah, hulkers, yeah.
Avenue (12:21.925)
just buff everybody at this point. just, I don't care what they do. Like just do it. Like, I don't know.
Lyte (12:31.768)
God bless. God bless.
CaptainCoach (12:32.64)
rights that you any any melee character gets out-melee'd by her I still lose in 1v1s in melee to Jean by the way as Hulk 750 health by the way still have no chance if I am NOT right right so even more you know I pretty much have to have bubble and full health bar and land right on top of her and by the way she'll still just jump away
Lyte (12:41.676)
Yep. Yep.
I mean it's 950 because you're Basically, yeah.
Avenue (12:58.031)
and fly away.
CaptainCoach (12:59.297)
It's awful, man. It's so hard out here in this tank economy, man.
Lyte (13:02.766)
Yeah, Hulk, it's so unlucky for Hulk players too. I play with Monster a lot as well, he's a really, really big Hulk guy too. So I'm very, very in tune with the character and what it's good into and stuff like that. And he was the only tank, the only tank in Ignite out of every single tank that didn't get played at all for any reason. Even Thor, Thor was played more than once. Hulk is just like...
CaptainCoach (13:10.628)
yeah.
Lyte (13:30.018)
He's not a bad character, I just think he's the most balanced tank and that's the problem.
CaptainCoach (13:34.233)
Okay, I got a question for both you guys because I've been dying to ask like DPS players. This question in particular, do you think the power budget for individual heroes, right? Like how much health you give a hero, how much damage? Do you think mobility is too high of a price within a hero's individual power budget? Cause I feel like it is personally in this game.
Avenue (13:59.269)
What do you mean? Like, can you elaborate more on that?
Lyte (14:00.908)
I think so. think so. I think Hulk and Spider-Man are very similar characters. The devs think that, okay, well they just have so much mobility so we have to keep the rest of their kits tame. But, like, they're too tame.
Avenue (14:08.453)
her, okay.
CaptainCoach (14:10.027)
Right, so like Angela might be an exception to that and she's like really good right now and people are starting to get good with her. And her mobility is insane but it's not like Hulk insane. It's kind of like, I don't know, mean. It's pretty, yeah, yeah, like the good ones are, they're just zigzagging over point and you can just never kill her. So you say yes,
Lyte (14:14.03)
Yes, she is.
Avenue (14:24.729)
I mean, she's pretty, it's pretty insane. I mean, she's just flying.
Lyte (14:33.58)
Yeah, think Hulk and Spider-Man in particular suffer from the same issue. have this mobility, but they can't do anything with it. In Spider-Man's case, he's not lethal enough, or he can't survive long enough. I've spent a lot of time talking with Wreck about this. He's a big Spider-Man guy, and he wants Spider-Man to be more of an assassin, where he wants to buff his damage, which I think is more toxic than just buffing his survivability.
CaptainCoach (14:54.106)
Mm.
Lyte (14:59.522)
Because if we have a hyper lethal Spider-Man like we did in season one when we had the symbiote bond and he's just one tapping people every 30 seconds, that's the type of gameplay that people hate Black Panther for, like unreactable one shots. Where if he's more survivable, he can stay in, do his combos, do his thing, and he has higher uptime and he's more of valuable character. And I think Hulk is kind of similar where he doesn't do enough damage, but he also can't survive long enough. Like his bubble isn't enough. It's not like a cap shield or Venom getting a thousand HP or like...
CaptainCoach (15:09.529)
Yeah.
Avenue (15:10.383)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (15:20.357)
That's why I love them.
Avenue (15:25.722)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (15:25.999)
Yeah.
Avenue (15:28.197)
There's another like passive buff you can do to those characters too, like Hulk and Spidey. if you just nerf like the CC or just nerf like the over-kitty characters like Bucky and stuff like that, then everybody gets buffed. Like Spidey gets buffed, Hulk gets buffed. So if they, they, it just depends on what they want to focus on, but I think they should go the route of nerfing CC and just nerfing like over-kitty characters. That's my personal opinion.
Lyte (15:38.486)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Mills (15:46.943)
Well, that's kind of what I wanted to talk about is I feel like there's a lot about this game that's getting hard power crept. Like the fact that we need a character like Daredevil to be good, like that strong in order to be good is crazy. think like, like we took from Bucky from season zero all the way to now, they just constantly like buff this character. And I feel like we should have gotten a whole bunch of nerfs up until this point.
Lyte (15:56.94)
Yeah, yeah, it's insane.
Avenue (15:58.574)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (16:08.276)
Speaking of which, Avenue, you're like a known like one of the best torches, right? How do you feel about the torch nerfs? And why don't you think they did that with other characters? Was it just cause he was like so prominent? Cause I feel like Gene is still good, but his torch, like I don't really see torch anymore. And they moved, they nerfed his mobility and his damage.
Avenue (16:22.956)
Well, he just he has so much downtime now like you can't like the re the torch is like Torch would be good if if the meta wasn't so strong That's the problem with like these characters because they they nerf these characters that make them balance But then they keep the op characters broken and so like it just makes the characters look even worse But the reason the real reason why torch is just not good right now It's just because he has so much downtime They just nerf them really weird if they just got rid of his mobility like if they got rid of the melee tech where I can like
Matthew Mills (16:23.775)
Yeah
Lyte (16:26.808)
Yeah.
Lyte (16:46.7)
Yeah, bro.
Avenue (16:52.611)
If they just brought back season 1.5 torch really and just nerfed his movement, he would be like perfectly like, he'd be really good. He'd be like in a really good spot because then you have like good uptime. You're not like weaving everywhere. You're like, it's just.
CaptainCoach (16:55.621)
Mm.
Matthew Mills (17:04.83)
I have a question for everybody about Torch. Do y'all think that Torch is a failure of design? Because I feel like they constantly have a problem with keeping that character. He's either broken or terrible. Like he's...
Lyte (17:05.772)
Actually, yeah.
No.
Avenue (17:15.439)
Season 1.5 Torch was like, was perfect. He was so good. Season 1.5 Torch was crazy.
Lyte (17:15.874)
No, I'll do it.
Yeah, all they have to do to torch bro I actually really like the movement tech and I think it carves a niche out for him in the flyer roster like if you look at storm torch iron man and we ask ourselves like what should like what the sinks between these two characters Okay, so like torch for me. He should be the most survivable flyer, but he has moderate damage to compensate Iron man is super super vulnerable, but he actually has movement like he can move more than storm can but not as much as torch can but his damage should be higher than torches
And then Storm is just damage, damage, damage all one way. Has no mobility, super susceptible to dying, but she will give the most damage, Torch is the least damage. It's like two opposite ends of the spectrum and Iron Man's in the middle. And the movement tech also takes skill too, so it's like, I think we're taking away techs that require skill and simplifying a character to streamline the experience, I think it's usually always a bad idea.
Avenue (18:09.327)
Yeah. Like you could keep the movement tag, like lower that, I mean that or just like, make it to where he doesn't have it. Go ahead. Sorry. Sorry.
Lyte (18:12.174)
just lower the damage if the damage is too much.
Matthew Mills (18:13.695)
Right, right, right, right, right, right. The problem that... I was just gonna say, the problem that the devs are probably running into is that characters that require the movement tech to be playable are characters that no one in Lo-Elo can ever use, right? Because they're just too weak. And I understand, like, from our point of view, like, that doesn't fucking matter. Like, if you can't figure it out, then the character sucks, sorry. But they're having, like, you know, no one's gonna play Human Torch underneath, like, the GM rank. If the movement tech is required...
Lyte (18:27.886)
Mm-hmm.
Avenue (18:28.95)
Yeah
Lyte (18:41.624)
Yeah, but it's just always going to be impossible to make every hero good at every rank.
Matthew Mills (18:45.023)
Because the same argument is we shouldn't have gotten rid of the melee tech on Jean. We should have nerfed everything else. Nerf the damage, nerf the sustain, nerf her HP. Keep the melee tech in. That's the same argument.
Lyte (18:56.088)
Well, Jean's a sniper. Jean's a sniper. It's different. Like, she's just fundamentally, like, just poorly designed.
CaptainCoach (18:56.801)
I mean, yeah.
Avenue (18:59.47)
Mel, yeah.
Matthew Mills (19:01.255)
Right, right, but they could have like, you know, heavily reduced to range damage or they could have done it in a lot of ways. But I'm saying like you keep the tech, like the tech is what is part of what makes a character strong as opposed to, but like the more techs you add in, the harder it is for like an average person to understand them.
Lyte (19:05.975)
Yeah.
Lyte (19:15.778)
Yeah, like, Captain Coach, would you... do you care, like, let's say Jean still had the melee tech, but let's just completely gut her ranged damage, like, just neuter it. Like, would she be fine, in your opinion? If she was like a close-range type of Reaper-esque, maybe, maybe like more of like a Cassidy, closer range, like medium to short range type of gun character?
Avenue (19:33.406)
very interesting that's actually kind of interesting to see
CaptainCoach (19:34.937)
That would be interesting. Yeah. Yeah, because...
Matthew Mills (19:35.163)
I like that identity for her be honest, it makes her way different than Hello.
Avenue (19:41.189)
Yeah, because she's kind of just like a mid hella at this point, you know?
CaptainCoach (19:44.173)
I find that, like, I don't really care if I get, I mean, I guess it's not as bad to get blown up far away than close up because it's like, okay, they landed their shots. I don't know, that's an interesting question. I do like to see different characters go routes that are more, like, different and not, you know, to have, different archetypes. Like, what would that be considered, like, almost like a mage, like a melee? Like, I don't know, I mean, I've never seen something like that.
Lyte (20:06.188)
Yeah, exactly.
Matthew Mills (20:11.775)
I think all of pretty much all of her damage should be about igniting her flames in my opinion and there should be almost no damage from the actual hitting of her primary. Like it's all about the marks in my you would change her whole identity.
Avenue (20:12.345)
Like a Reaper is, like a Reaper character, that's-
CaptainCoach (20:14.777)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (20:26.051)
think it would work just because she has such good mobility and escape tools that it probably could work if you gave her little bit of health and just gutted her ranged damage. Probably would be viable and might be something interesting that you could see. No, I love seeing stuff like that. Maybe it could be a different type of counter to dive, for instance, whereas Fantastic can displace and offer shields, whereas if you get too close to Phoenix, you'll just die. Maybe that's something that they could look at.
Lyte (20:52.46)
Yeah, in my mind, in the video that I made when I talked about the poor design of the hitscans in this game, I compared it to Overwatch. Overwatch has done a really good job, minus Freya, think she kind of overlaps with a of characters, but if you look at Cassidy to Ashe to Black Widow, there's a very obvious distinct range advantage between those three. You pick Cass for mid to close, Ashe for long, and Widow for everything. She's an actual sniper. And so in this game,
we could have Jean Grey be the Cassidy. Bucky kind of already fills that role, but she would have more damage and be more mobile than Bucky, so it's another option, kind of like Sojourn, right? Like Sojourn doesn't have a stun like Cassidy does, or like a ground or whatever, but she does have mobility. And so I think what would be cool for Jean is if we just removed her stun entirely, but let her reduce the cooldown of her dash by like 0.2 seconds every time she procs a mark. So she's like blinking all over the place, but...
Avenue (21:48.527)
Yeah, I don't understand.
CaptainCoach (21:50.383)
That would be very cool. That would be very cool.
Lyte (21:51.65)
But you can actually get in range and pressure her. But range is where she wants to be because she has this melee tech. So you just make it to where people have to come into you. You don't have effective long range damage. Like you've got the gun's range damage. But when you come into her, she's going to be constantly proccing this passive, blinking all over the place. And it's engaging to play. And there's clear counter play options. You just pick a gun that out ranges her.
Avenue (21:53.966)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (22:10.043)
Yeah, that'd be super fucking fun. If anyone's ever like gone to the training room with no cooldowns and just blinked around on Gene, it's like, it actually feels so good.
Lyte (22:16.054)
Okay, also they need to add an indicator where she blinks to. Like that needs to be in the game right now. Like that is so cancer that you don't know where she goes.
Matthew Mills (22:20.579)
Yeah, that's actually... They need to add a lot of like things that tell you what's going on in this game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah.
CaptainCoach (22:21.709)
Yo, I heart agree on that.
Avenue (22:24.943)
Ha
Lyte (22:28.13)
Like the Black Panther tracer that they did? Do that with Gene. Do that with Gene. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (22:32.441)
Wait, so what are your thoughts on Emma then? Because Emma kind of fills that role as like a tank, right? Like you get too close to her, you just can't really play the game.
Lyte (22:39.702)
Emma is like, I think Emma is the most game-changing broken character that they've added to the game. She has been nothing but nerfed since her release and she still dominates the tank roster. she... Pro play is different, like these double dive tank meadows are different and dive is like a completely different story when it's played on a macro level with people who've been playing together for months with coordination, like it's a completely different game. But ranked, if you don't ban Emma and you play tank, you were just gonna be miserable.
Avenue (22:46.562)
Yeah.
Lyte (23:08.974)
She counters every tank in the game. She steamrolls the frontline. She steamrolls every melee hero. And it is just absurd to me how this character is just dodge the nerfs that she needs. Like her damage, I got into a lobby. I think it was TTK and a smurf. I don't know who it was, but this Emma. Someone on my team said ban Captain America and they banned Cap instead of Emma. And this kid drops 44,000 damage. Like I could tell it was a pro player, but he has 10K more damage more than everyone in the lobby. This is like a top 500 lobby.
And the game was just insufferable, it was miserable. You can't play. You can't play. We weren't mirroring Emma. And if there's a good Emma on the enemy team, you just lose. Period. She just dominates everything. You just have to ban it. There's nothing you can do. Her range is too good, her damage is too good. Point and click, fucking stun on demand. The crystal, she pulls a crystal out from you, and then diamonds, one shots tanks.
Avenue (23:45.219)
You have to mirror it.
CaptainCoach (23:57.305)
You know my least favorite part about her is? She's too skinny, bro. You can't hit her!
Lyte (23:59.693)
What's up?
She has to hitbox! She has more base Yeah, no, bro, bro. No, legit, her base HP is higher than Thor's. And her hitbox is like half the size too.
Avenue (24:02.967)
Yeah, yeah, dad, yes, she's very skinny, yes.
Matthew Mills (24:03.027)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes.
CaptainCoach (24:06.338)
I hate it.
CaptainCoach (24:12.111)
Get her some McDonald's or something like Jesus like what are we doing bro?
Lyte (24:13.638)
Yeah, like legit. It's just like, I literally think they should cut the damage in half. Cut her damage in half. Like actually. It's just the damage. It's the damage.
Avenue (24:14.285)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (24:17.289)
So what do they do about Emma? What do they do? What do they do? Just... The problem, once again, the problem is the experience of Emma. Because the character is... She's fucking so boring to play, in my opinion. And I think in Lo-E-Lo's, she's just so frustrating to play. Because it's like... I'm not saying she's not strong, because she is. It's just like... She's just really, really do nothing for a lot of the game. You're just constantly shooting on the front line, waiting for someone to make a mistake, not doing anything.
Avenue (24:22.351)
Yeah, she does way too much. Her crystal does a lot of damage too.
CaptainCoach (24:23.533)
No, no, no, no, no, no, no,
CaptainCoach (24:32.067)
The problem?
Lyte (24:44.056)
Mm-hmm.
CaptainCoach (24:44.079)
They...
Avenue (24:45.273)
Yeah, but that grab is so lethal. It could change a fight around. It's the grab tech in my opinion.
Matthew Mills (24:47.519)
That's what I'm saying. I think they need to completely rework that kit because it's not it's not engaging if you just have like a like a fucking 15 second cooldown and then you just primary shooting five feet in front of you. What do you do?
CaptainCoach (24:47.715)
Yeah.
Avenue (24:56.911)
Cause yeah, cause the whole idea of like playing think is to create space. And then you have someone like Emma who just denies that. And so it's like, just makes the game unplayable.
Lyte (25:03.534)
He just- she just kills you, you get grabbed and you just die.
Matthew Mills (25:04.255)
Yeah, I think that entire design is something they should revisit. Like, I don't know exactly what that looks like, but if you just took the damage in half, like, yeah, I would bounce the character, the character would be so boring. Like, what would the character even do? Just stand around?
CaptainCoach (25:14.597)
Well, what does that mean though?
What does it mean to cut the damage in half? Because most of her damage she just farms off of tanks. And the reason she does that is because the little mine crystal she pulls out that she shoots at is like percentage health damage to tanks. It absolutely nukes. So she can one shot squishies when she grabs them and kicks them into a wall. She can basically pull the dead tanks in like a second and a half. she can't, like simply put, you shouldn't let her have both. Like a tank that counters other tanks is like, I never.
You never see that do well in any games. Like League had a big problem where they just all the bruisers countered other bruisers, but they were useless against everything else and it was just miserable to play that role. It's the same right now with Emma. So what I think they need to do is lower the mine crystal percentage damage and maybe somehow make it to where she has to like combo that with her kick. So it's like a full combo. And then, okay, if you want to make her a tank killer, fine, but maybe do it in a way where like the grab isn't so oppressive.
Matthew Mills (25:46.291)
What?
Lyte (25:57.774)
Hard agree. Hard agree.
Lyte (26:12.652)
It needs to be, if she wants to be, like if her identity is to be the frontline winner, it's fine that she has percent health damage under crystal and the diamond, but it should be like iron fist where you don't do any damage to squishies. Like you grab a squishy, your team needs to be there for you to kill them. Like you should not be able to solo kill, instantly kill someone when you grab them as a squishy. Like I shouldn't get grabbed out of my Spider-Man ult and instantly killed with no one else looking at me from the Emma.
CaptainCoach (26:21.455)
and the heel block.
Avenue (26:30.031)
Right.
Lyte (26:37.922)
You just can't have tanks with one shots, it's boring. It's why Roadhog was so oppressive. And why people hate Doomfist right now. Like, anytime you have a tank with seven billion health that can one shot you, the game is miserable.
CaptainCoach (26:48.761)
That being said, I do think Emma can be fun to play. That feeling of just constantly pushing those front lines back, I do think that kind of ebb and flow is kind of fun. She's just too over-tuned. They gotta figure out, because there are some games where I'll be playing Emma and there's just nobody to hit and I'm just like, shit, I'm kind of useless. I better find something to do. So what I'll do is I'll just sit on my healers and just try to push fights that way, because there's just not much else. You just sit and wait.
Lyte (26:56.578)
Mm-hmm.
Lyte (27:15.992)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (27:17.721)
So games like that too also feel pretty bad. It's because she has to hit tanks.
Lyte (27:20.546)
Yeah, it's completely fine to have a character like Emma in the game. Like it's a necessary evil to have a point and click grab. Like you see it all the time in every game. Like, you know, you have Moe and Krill from Deadlock or Warwick from League or whatever. any type of like anti-carry, I'm going to shut you down type of character is necessary and good. That's fine. But it is too much. Like Moe and Krill doesn't just kill you. Like he needs his team to be there. Same thing with Warwick.
CaptainCoach (27:38.945)
I loved Warwick.
Lyte (27:48.982)
Same thing with any other anti-character. The design of the character is that, yes, they're going to shut down the carry, but their team needs to be there. But Emma just kills you, so she doesn't need her team. That's the problem. She is the team.
CaptainCoach (28:03.333)
Mills, should ask Avenue about Blade, by the way, too. I wanted to ask him a couple, because I think Blade is so broken and nobody knows about it. I feel like he's so good.
Matthew Mills (28:06.418)
yeah, you do. You do. You do lock in. Yeah.
Avenue (28:06.661)
I'll be excited to talk about Blade.
Avenue (28:11.799)
the character is insane, there is, he's terrible at the same time and we'll see if can talk about that.
Matthew Mills (28:12.84)
What do you think he needs in order to be like an actual meta pick?
CaptainCoach (28:16.569)
Okay.
Avenue (28:20.357)
the game needs to fix it. Like the devs just need to fix the game. It's like, it's not, it's not blade. Blade is actually really good. Like I have 90 hours on blade and the only time I lose on blade is when the no hit regs in the, in the, in the lobby are like massive. Like the problem with blade is, is the no hit regs. It's not, it's not the character. It's, when I shoot Luna 30 times and three of my shots do damage, you know, that's the problem with blade. It's like, it's either
Matthew Mills (28:23.283)
That's like...
Lyte (28:23.534)
Yeah, he's like the Hulk.
Matthew Mills (28:36.924)
CaptainCoach (28:37.786)
Hmm.
Avenue (28:48.397)
you do you to tap any squishy in the game or you shoot a squishy five times and like two two shots like actually do damage. It's insane.
Matthew Mills (28:54.111)
Yeah, because I saw your TikTok talking about the no reg problem in Rivals.
Avenue (28:57.445)
It's unbelievable, Blade is so good. the community, like Blade is so good, but if I click Blade on my team in a high elo lobby, like I'll be hitting C1 on Blade and then I'll insta-lock Blade and I'm one above all, I'll lobby, my team just throws because they don't think the Blade is the right pick. They just throw the game. And so besides that and the no hit regs, Blade is actually broken. Like the character's actually really good.
Lyte (29:22.392)
I wanna ask you Avenue, when do you like realistically like you look at Blade in a game, like look at their team comp, look at your comp, when is it actually better than like Bucky?
Avenue (29:33.239)
Well, Blade is actually good to pair with Bucky. wouldn't like if they have like Blade is good in a bra comp, but the only problem with Blade is that he's not getting any value because of the game itself. I'm telling you, like when I pop off on Blade, I'm literally like dropping 25 finals like a game. Like I have so many YouTube videos of me just dropping like over 20 finals on Blade because I'm too tapping every squishy. But then there's other games where I'm doing literally zero damage and Blade feels good in those situations when I'm actually
doing damage. mean, I don't know how we... If you ban Bucky, then Blade's like a really good pick, but realistically, any other, any DPS in the game really isn't better than Bucky besides like Psylocke right now.
Lyte (30:15.628)
Yeah, I think for me the problem with Blade, like I definitely see Blades like do stuff sometimes. Emma has to be banned of course, like... But... The thing that I have with Blade is he doesn't really feel like he wins you the game. He just like exists and then alts with a Groot or like something else and then that's it. But like he's not...
Matthew Mills (30:23.528)
Yeah.
Avenue (30:34.969)
The reason why he doesn't exist is because he's the blade on your team is quite literally doing zero damage and he's not saying anything to your teammates like He won't won't swap even though he's shooting the Luna snow 30 times and he's doing literally zero damage because of the no hit rigs That character has the worst no hit rigs in the entire video game It's actually crazy like if you ever play moon night if anybody here has played moon night You would know the no hit rigs on moon nights pretty bad like they're pretty atrocious like you'll throw your moon blade and like you'll do zero damage Now imagine that like like literally every like three shots on blade is a no hit rig. It's actually unbearable
Lyte (30:48.814)
I agree. Yeah, I agree.
Avenue (31:03.967)
That's the reason why the character is so bad. In my opinion. After 100 hours on the character.
Lyte (31:07.48)
Just a...
Matthew Mills (31:07.839)
I think they could probably easily make Blade broken if they wanted to, like at any moment. they just like upped his... They could easily up any of his numbers. His anti-heal numbers, like you just up Silver Bullet numbers anti-heal and you could just make that character just completely busted.
Lyte (31:10.734)
Yeah.
Lyte (31:15.66)
Yeah, his numbers are so low.
Avenue (31:20.101)
Yeah.
Lyte (31:22.872)
Bro, that is like the biggest problem, bro. His-
Avenue (31:23.641)
But man, like he literally like two taps, bro. it's like, I'm telling you guys, like if I'm taking an off angle and I see a rocket raccoon and a Jeff, like, my gun is hitting, like they're both dead within four shots. cause like that's actually like, Blade's actually a really good counter to Jeff and Rocket.
Matthew Mills (31:38.623)
I don't know why, it's because the reason you get no regs is because of the way the gun operates, right? That gun is really strange, because it's like a delayed, it's like a delayed projectile a little bit, yeah.
Avenue (31:44.355)
It's a projectile and most projectile, like a lot of projectiles. Yeah. And then like, it's a spread too. So like you'll get three of your bullets to hit register, but the other like whatever, how many bullets? Like no rag. So like you'll do either half the damage or zero the damage or like the bullet just doesn't do a full bit of damage. It's not like, cause like the reason why blades is so bad is cause like Bucky, Namor, Moon Knight, when you, when you shoot your projectile, it's, it's, it's a one.
By one, know Bucky's a one bullet, Namor's a one bullet. So, you're not filling those no hit regs as much unless like your gun just literally just no hit regs completely. The reason why Blade's no hit regs so much, yeah. But you have like these individual pellets that no hit regs. So like you're upping the chances by like 6X. Now, you know what I mean? like, all your, like half of your pellets will no hit reg and the other half don't. So Blade is literally just doing zero damage even if you're in perfect range.
Matthew Mills (32:21.452)
It happens on Bucky too, you do get some no rig rigs every once in a while.
Lyte (32:27.157)
Yeah.
Lyte (32:38.198)
Yeah, I think for me that the two biggest things that Blade suffers from aside from his his like no regs, let's assume his no regs work or whatever and we take him in the highest tier of environment like the first is that Blade I don't think like actually wins you the game like other characters do like if I pick Daredevil or even Spider-Man or like Hela like I can get in the backline get active I can flank I can like like get picks I can win the game like Bucky has the hook he wins you the game Blade just sits there with his team
and the anti-heal is so weak you can't capitalize on it. I think the anti should be what Blade you pick him for. They triple support, you pick Blade, they can't play it anymore. We would not have the Season 3 or 3.5 support Armageddon if Blade was good. Even now, triple support wouldn't be good if Blade's anti-heal actually mattered. And to me, that's what his identity should be, is that anti.
Avenue (33:14.693)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (33:19.267)
Yeah.
Avenue (33:27.066)
down.
Matthew Mills (33:28.127)
It's risky, it's risky though, because he might even just dominate double support, two tank compositions if his anti-heal is like, like what, like 30 % or 40%, he could just like kill things, everything.
Avenue (33:36.271)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (33:38.199)
Well, I've had an issue with blade anti-heal from the start. I feel like there's not enough of a visual indicator too when someone has anti-heal on them. I don't think there's a visual indicator. Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't noticed it. Purple health bar. Yeah, I feel like it should be more to be honest. And it should be like this big thing where everyone's just like, okay, focus that person.
Avenue (33:47.932)
He's very team reliant.
Lyte (33:49.709)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (33:53.407)
It's just over the health, it's over your health, it's over your health bar. Yeah.
Avenue (33:53.592)
It is, it's purple.
Lyte (33:54.958)
It's just a purple health bar. Yeah. Yeah, they could.
Lyte (34:02.796)
Yeah, they could add something to it, but for me I think like... You should pop the anti on the tank. And even if there's just like a standard 2-2-2, like Blade still wouldn't be broken because the nature of his kit is like... Blade can't like mark anything really, like he doesn't like... You're not gonna flank on Blade like you are on Hela and just kill everyone, you know? Like his gun is too short range. Exactly. And like for the melee characters that he gets, like you're not gonna beat Psylocke in a close range duel, Daredevil runs you over, like you will win against Iron Fist here and there.
Matthew Mills (34:20.211)
Yeah, because his damage is like it ramps up instead of instant like you can't really flank at all
Lyte (34:32.386)
But Iron Fist can kind of avoid you because Blight doesn't really have the type of mobility that other characters do. Like he has his dashes and shit, but like...
Avenue (34:36.751)
I actually, kind of disagree with that. Take light, low key.
Lyte (34:40.846)
What part?
Matthew Mills (34:40.991)
with the iron fist or which one?
Avenue (34:42.105)
The iron fist like you can, iron fist is he can close the gap on you. Like the whole thing about blade is like, I use my dash, like say like a Psylocke presses me or a Daredevil presses me, I use my dash to get away to shoot them from this distance. They come toward me, I dash back to shoot them. Iron fist can kind of like just stay on you at all times with the auto lock. So.
Lyte (35:01.474)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. My point was like, as the blade, if you're in a side lane, right, like he's not like a duelist in the sense of like, you go flank as blade on side lane, Psylocke matches you, are you winning that yes or no, like no snowflake either side, right? Probably not because she just outranges you and it's Psylocke, unless you outplay her and like deflect her right click or whatever. But most of the time Psylocke just runs you over and you have to leave. You won't die, but you have to leave. And when you leave, the Psylocke gets that lane and then he uses that lane to pressure your backline and it's a whole thing. So, blade...
Avenue (35:18.436)
Right.
Avenue (35:23.673)
Right. Absolutely.
Avenue (35:29.634)
Right.
Lyte (35:30.658)
doesn't go side lane, he sits with his team and he just does his thing, he capitalizes off what other people do, but he himself is not winning you the game. He's capitalizing off of other people doing things. And that's like the problem. Exactly. He's not Torch, he's not Bucky, he's not Hella, like he doesn't win the game.
Avenue (35:37.016)
Yeah.
That's very true. He's not a hard carry character at all.
Matthew Mills (35:40.381)
that
CaptainCoach (35:41.067)
Hmm.
Avenue (35:45.391)
Right.
CaptainCoach (35:47.429)
Well, maybe they need to double down on that, like you said. What are your thoughts on healing absorbs, not healing reduced? So you put like a counter on someone where the healing that hits them just fills up that counter, then once that counters off, then the heals will hit.
Matthew Mills (35:47.551)
Whoa.
Avenue (35:57.049)
Like Zen?
Lyte (36:02.008)
That's cool. Because then he would win you the game. If you hit it like a good anti on someone at the right time and you hit them with your sword like that could... yeah. Yeah like that would win you the game and that would like actually make Blade a viable good character if the anti-heal mattered.
Matthew Mills (36:03.042)
so it's like this person doesn't get, this person doesn't get, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
CaptainCoach (36:08.887)
It would stop all healing until they healed through it or the timer wore off.
Avenue (36:16.59)
Literally,
CaptainCoach (36:17.359)
Does that thematically fit or does it not matter? with the...
Matthew Mills (36:21.099)
I don't think it matters but I don't think how do y'all feel about I don't think thematically matters at all I don't know and it's got you can just just make up just make up the rules and just yeah make a character yeah but okay this actually kind of you talking about that light wanted me to kind of bring this to the the group is how do y'all feel about Psylocke because I feel like that character is just so fucking busted like
Lyte (36:27.914)
I've, I don't know, not. Yeah.
Lyte (36:42.158)
It's just... Yeah, no, it's just like their golden child, like Psylocke, Luna, and like Emma. And like, and Hella.
Avenue (36:42.231)
I hate invisible characters, bro.
Avenue (36:47.333)
Yeah, Salakuna Bucky is like the devs mains. I don't know. I don't know.
Matthew Mills (36:48.445)
Like, like, like, why, why did they buff? Why did they buffer ult? Like, I don't fucking understand. It makes no sense. Like, like in the pro matches, in Ignite, like, Sly was like fucking Thanos. Like, literally, like.
CaptainCoach (36:49.507)
Mmm.
Lyte (36:54.508)
It is... Bro.
Avenue (37:00.035)
Yeah, yeah, literally like admin like pub stomp admin like character
Lyte (37:00.534)
It's because, yeah, no, the reason, the reason, okay, so Psylocke was not good for, she was still good, but like she was perceived to not be good because Psylocke can't operate as a solo DPS. And the reason is because she has downtime. So Starlord took over Psylocke on 3.5 during the support Armageddon as a pocket DPS, like Starlord and Torch, because they excel with resources and don't have any downtime.
Anytime you have a character like Psylocke or like Iron Fist or Spider-Man, these characters don't operate as solo DPS because they don't have enough damage to make up for the fact that you're playing triple support. It's like Bucky can play that role, Gene can play that role, Hela can't really, she doesn't do like, you kinda can, but not really, Psylocke can't and etc. But that didn't mean Psylocke was weak. It just meant that the meta didn't revolve around her because support was just so much better than everything else in the game, but it didn't mean Psylocke needed to be brought up here.
Matthew Mills (37:55.827)
Yeah, and they made nerfs specifically to triple support and then they buffed Psylocke in addition to those things. So they moved us to a meta.
Lyte (37:56.012)
Because like...
Lyte (38:00.65)
Exactly when they just needed to bring it down. Yeah
Avenue (38:00.879)
She's just another over-kidded character. And you get over-shielded to like, why does she get over-shielded?
Lyte (38:06.21)
You know that Oversteel stacks with her team up too? So she like, she gets even more health?
Avenue (38:08.321)
It's so stupid, like.
A hitscan that can go invisible, who gets overshowed, the best ultimate in the game? Like I don't understand.
Lyte (38:16.023)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (38:16.461)
Yeah, it's... I always hate it when I know I can just tell by a Psylocke, like by the way that they're playing, that they have their alt, and they'll just be so, so aggressive, like just dive so hard knowing that they can just use that alt as like a reset and escape, and they can get away with so much because of that.
Lyte (38:31.49)
Yeah, and you can't... It's so brain dead. You can't interact with the ult either. Like, think of Jean. Jean is another ult that just one shots you. At least you can break it. Psylocke is invulnerable! She's invulnerable! Why?
Avenue (38:41.797)
Yeah, like why is it immortal? Yeah. Yeah, why is she immortal in the old? Like that doesn't make any sense to me.
Matthew Mills (38:42.057)
Right, yeah yeah yeah yeah. No. This game has a really, yeah no. This game has a big problem with, there's a lot of ults that are just either press Q to kill or press Q to save. Like, you press this Q and like no one can die, okay, we all know about the support ults that are just bullshit. But there's also like a whole bunch of them that are just press Q, we kill and no skill involved. Like no decision making involved, just fucking like, like an auto-pilot. Like why is Psylocke a character that actually does have high mechanical like.
CaptainCoach (38:44.259)
Yeah.
Lyte (38:47.456)
It's zero skill.
Lyte (39:00.258)
Mm-hmm.
Avenue (39:05.73)
It's weird,
Matthew Mills (39:11.581)
difficulty and like extremely high skill ceiling and even a pretty high skill floor. Why is there ultimate just like invulnerable, just do damage? I don't understand.
Lyte (39:19.362)
Like yeah, I mean look at Iron Fist and Magic. Like they press their ults, it upgrades their kit, but they can still die. It still takes skill.
CaptainCoach (39:23.779)
I have a theory, but it's not a very popular opinion why they make Psylocke that way. She sells skins to casuals.
Avenue (39:25.125)
Yeah, and you can...
Matthew Mills (39:25.256)
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, what is it? What is it?
Matthew Mills (39:33.407)
So they have to keep one part of her, they have to keep... They gotta keep one...
Lyte (39:33.816)
So does Spider-Man, but Spider-Man's horrible.
Avenue (39:34.468)
It's a-
CaptainCoach (39:37.091)
Yeah, but Spider-Man's genuinely fun to play. I feel like Spider-Man is iconic in this game. Spider-Man's why a lot of people are just gonna start playing this game. don't think he's ever gonna be... He's your main, right? Like, one of your mains?
Lyte (39:45.536)
I know, and it's so sad how shit he is too. He was like what I was known for for a while, like him and Starlord were the two characters, but I stopped playing Spider-Man pretty much entirely because it's like not good for my pro career and the character is just historically too weak. Like you just can't, there's no point. Like I am... Well that too, that too, but like... Exactly.
Avenue (39:47.898)
This
Matthew Mills (39:48.146)
Ahem.
CaptainCoach (39:59.609)
Ugh.
CaptainCoach (40:02.917)
I thought you were going to say, good for your mental health for a second.
Matthew Mills (40:06.419)
They could probably make Spider-Man meta in pro play if they wanted to. Like, fairly easy, right? If they just buffed the right things. What do you think about that?
Avenue (40:06.487)
I stopped playing Blay
Lyte (40:14.542)
Yeah, so the problem is like if you're playing as the best players in the world Spider-man has no place at all in the game right now like ever like I've thought about it I've talked to people about it like even under perfect conditions in the right band There is never ever a reason to pick him. He's just too weak. He's like Black Panther. He's just too weak They would need to buff so much
Matthew Mills (40:29.512)
Ahem.
Matthew Mills (40:36.305)
Right. They would have to massively buff him, right?
CaptainCoach (40:37.477)
I had an idea I wanted to run Bayou Light. You can tell me it's stupid, it's a terrible idea. I'm not fully sold on it, but it's around Spider-Man and how to make him balance. So you look at a character like Rocket, gets picked in pro play, very easy to play, very, guaranteed value just by having a Rocket on your team. You get the res, you get the damage from your ult. Why not?
Avenue (40:38.159)
They need to rework Black Panther though, like that character.
Lyte (40:40.814)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (41:03.717)
do something like that with Spider-Man because his kit is already so oppressive that if you gave him more damage, it would hit that break point where it's just like unfun to play against, you're getting one shot. If you buffed his webs in CC, that would be good, but at the end of the day, it's about getting kills in this game. So that probably wouldn't do. So what if you gave him like some kind of passive, like Spidey sense or something where it's like, right, like.
Avenue (41:25.423)
He has parties.
Lyte (41:28.448)
shitty though, it's not real.
Avenue (41:29.551)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (41:29.733)
Will you hear people you do this little thing goes off? mean like just as an example where it's like More defensive minded like if anytime a teammate drops below 20 % health and spider-man's in range He'll he'll just like dash to him or so maybe there's like a little thing where you can trigger and it gives them like like some kind of like protection like it like like like a very easy to use sort of like or just like a like a passive where they just get a little shield you see spider-man pop up boys I helped you and it's it's you know what I mean like
Kind like a passive buff for everybody that just is in the game because Spider-Man was picked. Sort of thing.
Lyte (42:05.838)
I'm it's like
Avenue (42:05.925)
like a team up.
CaptainCoach (42:08.343)
Like a team up, more just like, it'd be like giving everybody on the team 10 % lifesteal, something like that, where it's like, you have this little buff over your head and it wants it to use maybe like, he'll save somebody or, you know, something like that.
Lyte (42:09.709)
Yeah.
Lyte (42:18.752)
If this wasn't like Marvel Rivals and like it wasn't like Spider-Man in particular, like if it was an unbranded off-brand character, I think that would be fine. But I think like the character's identity and the way they designed him is really good how it is. And I wouldn't add like some type of support capability to him. I think it's fine to have a hypermobile melee assassin. Like that's like his thing. He's just so shit at that. Like what he needs is he needs
to be able to do that job better or he needs more uptime so he's actually more pressure in the game. So what I've been saying for a while what they need to do to Spider-Man is to every time he procs a tracer give him bonus health up to like 320, 350, like you can play with a number exactly because every other melee hero gets bonus health besides him. All of them. In some type of manner like Iron Fist Deflect, Daredevil off of his chains, Magic with just hitting people, Planter with dashing, like all of them. Spider-Man's the only one.
And because that's the case, I think that they tamed on that because of how mobile he is, but his kill combos just take so long to execute when people start getting good because this overhead thing that he does, that needs to be increased by like 20 or 30%. And he needs to get bonus health when he procs a tracer and he's fine. And then he's fine.
Matthew Mills (43:27.775)
So slow, y'all, too.
Avenue (43:28.143)
Yeah.
Avenue (43:32.655)
Know what I said about the overhead? I think they should give him over show when he does the overhead. I think that would be dope. A dope addition to Spider-Man.
CaptainCoach (43:33.336)
Hmm.
Lyte (43:41.324)
The problem with that is that you never get that off against, like if you get that off on someone they're probably dead. But you can never get it off because it's so slow and people just kill you before it happens.
Avenue (43:45.366)
That's true. Yeah, okay. That's true. That's true. It's so slow. Yeah
CaptainCoach (43:52.151)
Is there an argument to be made that giving every character bonus health is just a sign that they need to reduce the overall damage of a couple characters? I feel like that's... I personally like longer fights. That's kind of why I play Hulk, is that he kind of draws out the fights and makes them go on longer. To me, that's more skillful, like kind of like you said earlier.
Lyte (44:12.204)
Yeah, I just think if you went that route, it would be a lot more work than just giving Spider-Man more survivability. Honestly.
CaptainCoach (44:19.737)
So just buff the characters who need it, sort of.
Lyte (44:22.069)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Mills (44:22.419)
Yeah. Yeah.
Avenue (44:24.047)
So like keep everybody in the game broken, but buff all the weak characters. Because I feel like rivals with this route were like, initially it was like if every character is broken, everything's balanced, but they've nerfed certain characters and there's like four characters in the game that just run. If you don't play them, you're actually throwing.
CaptainCoach (44:36.527)
Yeah.
Lyte (44:38.124)
Nerve-tulk, when Hulk was never the problem.
Matthew Mills (44:40.741)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (44:42.853)
Yeah.
Lyte (44:43.808)
It's always, for Hulk, it's always been his team ups. Like, I just hate how they treat that character because he's extremely hard to play. characters that are hard to play like Hulk should always be good. That are skill expressive like Spider-Man, Hulk, like Psylocke, Star-Lord, like these characters should all be relevant. But for some reason, they just have favoritism.
CaptainCoach (45:00.773)
industry my concept to how to give you money had a tear three about dot the circuit is that it could keep going to to go
Matthew Mills (45:02.542)
Yeah
Avenue (45:03.523)
Yeah, haha!
Matthew Mills (45:06.291)
Yeah, I...
Lyte (45:07.874)
No bro, like I said I play with Monster all the time and when I was on FlyQuest, Sparksheaf was my tank too and he's like a big Hulk guy at the time as well. Like, I understand the character and the struggle so well and it's so sad because the character is so well designed, except for his exiles, exiles weird, but he's so well like designed and balanced but like they just have him afrost and Magneto and all this other bullshit whenever it's like, why are we just leaving Hulk to be a a team-up merchant?
CaptainCoach (45:34.789)
I have a confession. Hulk is at a point right now where you can play Mag at a below average level and find way more value than you ever would on Hulk in like probably about at least half your games. A below average level and then I'm, I play, I have like 600 plus hours on him, right? So it's just like that feels terrible. So you know what I do? I purposefully,
Lyte (45:49.953)
Easily.
Avenue (45:51.525)
That's a lot of how the DPS are.
Matthew Mills (45:54.299)
Yeah, same thing with bogey, yeah, yeah.
Lyte (45:55.862)
Yeah, easily.
CaptainCoach (46:04.229)
play those characters really, I don't practice them at all and I just double die full go-ons because I'm committed, right? So it's like, just so I won't have to play them in my head. It's not good, I'm not a good teammate, but I don't know, I'm hoping for buffs coming up here.
Lyte (46:20.482)
He should, I would be very surprised if he didn't get buffed, especially because like, the Panther, the Panther Hulk team up was dog shit. Like that was the most nonsensical fucking garbage ass change that they ever did. They, no the team up is like fine, but we're gonna nerf Panther's base HP, give him a conditional bubble through a team up, and then have that team up be a 45 second cooldown? Like what? It's just horrible!
Avenue (46:23.919)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (46:25.193)
they need to.
Avenue (46:29.387)
What a weird team up.
Avenue (46:40.345)
Yeah. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (46:42.062)
Yeah, that-
Matthew Mills (46:42.367)
I mean, it's just for the clips. It's really just for the clips, like the viral clips, like at the start of the scene. That's literally all it's for. It's not really...
Lyte (46:48.088)
Yeah, like the character... And when are you playing Hulk and Panther together?
CaptainCoach (46:49.038)
I don't even...
CaptainCoach (46:52.946)
Mmm. It's not that good. It's not that good.
Avenue (46:53.093)
Yeah, it's like a weird combo like
Lyte (46:54.626)
Like I guess you could sometimes, like Hulk is like a weird character where he's not like a full diver like Angela or Cap or Venom, but he's also he can't brawl either as well as other, like he's very like-
CaptainCoach (47:04.293)
You'll rarely get a shield off on BP. They're always zipping around. He's hitting random targets. Hulk wanna wants to all focus the same one.
Lyte (47:09.1)
Yeah, yeah. If I had to, yeah, if I had to predict for next patch, I think there's no chance in hell Psylocke doesn't get nerfed. I think Torch will get buffed. I think Hulk will get buffed. And I think that's all I can predict actually. I would say Bucky will get nerfed.
Avenue (47:25.807)
I don't think Tart's gonna get both.
Matthew Mills (47:26.577)
Nah dude, they're buffing fucking Luna, Emma, Silo, you trust, yeah, that's right, Huna, of course.
Avenue (47:29.293)
Yeah, everybody's just gonna be the same and they'll never Spider-Man like they'll just do something silly. You never know with I Never I don't know why they do they don't do hot fixes Like I don't know like if they see a character like so dominant in the in the meta like within the start of it like the season Why don't they do hot fixes of like reducing that character or like buffing others?
Matthew Mills (47:33.993)
They'll give Bucky another CC?
Lyte (47:34.094)
Yeah, you never know when that is, but like...
Lyte (47:41.134)
Yeah.
Lyte (47:48.256)
It's because in their minds, like I've talked with people who are like in the inner circle of the content creator program or whatever, like the super one, and in their heads they think about characters in the game like months in advance because they already know the abilities of course of other characters that they're going to release and stuff like that. And so their headspace is always thinking forward instead of in the present. So in their minds, Hulk is broken right now because the five, six new characters they're going to add to the game are just perfect for Hulk to play with and against.
So we don't need to tuck Hulk right now. We'll just keep adding characters every month and go from there.
CaptainCoach (48:18.597)
Hmm.
Matthew Mills (48:20.767)
I mean, in fairness to them, it's extremely hard when they're, I mean, the game's changing so fast compared to other games. Like, we're not sitting in one hero. Daredevil alone has changed the meta dramatically. They're gonna be another character in like a week. There'll be another character in a month. It's extremely hard, especially when you're like, they could never do internal testing of a character. Because what are they gonna do it on? This patch, next patch? When the hero's here? What the next change is? How are they gonna ever do internal testing?
Lyte (48:46.54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Avenue (48:46.543)
Yeah, sure.
Matthew Mills (48:51.183)
in a way that's reasonable. They could definitely hotfix, but it's hard because... So as an example, in Valorant, Valorant has an eternal testing team, where they have a higher team of ex-pros and radiant players that test. Who are they to trust? Are they going to trust community sentiment about what to buff and nerf? They can't do it themselves, because like you said, they're already working on the next thing. Yeah, yeah, we'll do it. I'm down.
CaptainCoach (49:14.245)
They should pick me, pick us. We'll do it.
Lyte (49:17.622)
I could make this the best game in the world, like of all time in like a day, bro.
Avenue (49:19.482)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (49:22.181)
Spider-Man all just one shots. His map hits everybody, auto-target, pulls him in, does like a Thanos ability.
Matthew Mills (49:22.333)
Hehehe
Avenue (49:23.813)
Yeah.
Lyte (49:24.255)
No,
Matthew Mills (49:25.363)
But, how do they, I think they need to do something about Thing. Like, I don't know how y'all feel about the Thing. I'm sure y'all are dying. Yeah, I see, like, you're dying. Bro, no, that's my problem is the Thing is way too one dimensional. He's extremely one dimensional. He's terrible into anything long distance or poke.
Avenue (49:26.873)
What?
Lyte (49:29.486)
The map pulls are gone.
Lyte (49:34.006)
No, he's fine. Please no. Please no.
CaptainCoach (49:42.977)
No, no, no. The Thing, Thing died. I called this on Thing. The reason, I know you guys probably don't care about this, I'm very passionate about Thing, okay? When they gave him the mobility to jump to other heroes, I knew that was like the nail in the coffin for him, and that's like not the direction he should have moved in. And I even said like, need to give, like he's not gonna be tanky enough, and you're turning into a character that like doesn't fulfill the role he's trying to do.
Lyte (49:43.426)
That's fine,
Avenue (49:45.391)
think that's okay in a hero shooter.
Lyte (50:03.608)
Yes, bro. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (50:12.579)
which is just like, he's like the melee anchor tank, kinda, almost. Like he's super tanky, lot high damage, good cleave.
Lyte (50:17.518)
Peace.
Matthew Mills (50:18.143)
My problem is he loses the brawl to like, Doctor Strange frontlines. he should win against double shield brawls, but he loses. Over and over, like...
CaptainCoach (50:26.309)
Emma, they gave too much, like I said earlier, power budget to mobility rather than to his raw tankiness.
Lyte (50:26.894)
Yeah, yeah you should.
Avenue (50:32.005)
I think it's just the DPS though, that ruined that first thing. I don't think it's like strange particularly. I think it's like the DPS in the back line like shooting your thing. Yeah.
Matthew Mills (50:38.385)
Well, I mean, that's true, too. Like when Bucky's shooting at you on the front line, like you just can't survive. Like you can't survive.
Lyte (50:39.31)
I hard agree with Captain. The thing that they changed where you could jump to someone, especially combining that with the grounded effect and his punch is so brain dead. We don't need every character to do everything at all times. And that's kind of why I didn't like the Spider-Man thing that you said as well. I don't need Spider-Man to be a support. I don't need Thing to be an anti-flight. We have Hulk for that. We have...
CaptainCoach (50:58.469)
Yeah.
Lyte (51:06.006)
Strange, we have Maggle, like we have options as tanks to deal with fliers. We don't need a point and click brain dead version of a Hulk tackle. A Hulk tackle actually takes skill, Thing looking at you and charging his punches just is miserable. Like playing a flier into like Avenue, I'm sure you know playing Torch into Thing when he just marks you and punches you in the corner. It's cancer. It's zero skill. Yeah, it's zero skill.
Avenue (51:22.223)
So dumb. And if you could do- I'm gonna keep it on the ground too. Yeah, like forever.
CaptainCoach (51:23.257)
Yeah. And the worst part is, Feng players aren't happy right now, because he just gets absolutely melted in Melee because that 5 % that they took away, it feels awful.
Matthew Mills (51:24.691)
Yeah, yeah, forever, yeah.
Lyte (51:32.29)
Yeah, so exactly. He's shit in the frontline. He doesn't win frontline. And also, he's not even a peel character, really. That's like Kappa, because the problem is, you come backline to slam on something, guess what the rest of the enemy team is going to do? They walk forward because you give up frontline. And then most of time, the slam doesn't even secure a kill, because the dive player will be good enough to be super fast. Like, if I'm playing Panther and The Thing,
CaptainCoach (51:42.255)
Yeah.
Avenue (51:50.084)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (51:52.133)
Yeah.
Lyte (51:55.862)
I will either just afk if the thing is just sitting on his backline cock watching his supports and wait for my team to win because their tank is afk. Or if he's frontline, exactly, if he's frontline, yeah, I just go in and I'm so fast and I get out before he slams.
CaptainCoach (51:59.64)
Yep.
Avenue (52:02.733)
Literally, yeah. That's a point.
CaptainCoach (52:03.607)
It's a myth that thing is good into dive. he's... There are much better characters.
CaptainCoach (52:11.395)
Yeah, like most dive, they'll just run, they won't track the cool down and then it's just like they wonder why. And even then, like it knocks them up. So a lot of times they just like float out of it. It's just, very unreliable.
Lyte (52:20.11)
Exactly! It pops them so high in the air you just dash out of it afterwards.
CaptainCoach (52:24.163)
It'd be cool if they took the grounding effect from his punch and applied it to his own knockups. I think that could be cool. Maybe he could do some kind of interesting combo that way where it's like you can air stun juggle him a little bit. yeah, they went the wrong direction with Thing completely.
Matthew Mills (52:34.303)
Just turn him into Doomfist, bro. I don't want to Doomfist now.
Avenue (52:37.507)
Hahaha
Lyte (52:38.466)
No, if his slam, like his charge slam thing, if that was you jump to an allied target and you slam on them and then the radius was bigger and it grounded the targets that were in the radius completely, then he would actually be good counterdiver because it would be point and click and that's fine. You can have that type of style in the game and it doesn't pop them away from you. You want them to be grounded so the diver actually dies.
Matthew Mills (52:40.871)
Ahem.
CaptainCoach (53:01.035)
Mmm... I-
Matthew Mills (53:08.255)
I like it.
CaptainCoach (53:08.334)
I think his dash should be the knockup where he's running, do do do, knocks some people up, and then when he slams it should be a knockdown, like a A.O.E. Yeah.
Lyte (53:15.212)
Yeah, I mean yeah, that could work too. Like you can combo it where you knock them up and then slam them down. Like that could be cool too.
CaptainCoach (53:20.229)
Right, and then if they're like a certain height off the ground, then that would be where like your punch comes in, like, okay, I need to get them a little lower. Cause I don't think it should work, which it'd be so much flow, so much better. But yeah, what were you saying Mills?
Lyte (53:26.282)
Exactly.
Lyte (53:30.85)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (53:31.647)
I wanted to actually, I left it for the end just so that we could talk about it because I know everyone's going to have a hot text about it. How do you all feel about supports right now? Like the support balance in the game? How do you feel about support ultimates, support meta? What do you all think about that? And then we have no support mains represented here, which is, you know, perfect. So we can just, you know.
Avenue (53:51.685)
I think, and Rival specifically, supports one of those roles where... I'm just gonna say it, bro. Most supports are boosted in this game because it's so unbelievably forgiving for what you have to put in. I could play Rocket Raccoon and he'll bop my way to top 500, and all I have to do is just press Q when I can and survive.
Lyte (54:13.934)
Bro name another role where you can do zero damage and get high rank
Avenue (54:17.241)
It's insane. It's like, I feel like the whole idea of support is like, what I usually tell people that come to my streams, like, how do I rank up on support? I'm like, just do more damage. But then I'm like, you can just play rock or raccoon. You know what I mean? Because I feel like a lot of people just heal bot, but.
Lyte (54:19.278)
Shout out NoDamageRocket. Fuck.
Matthew Mills (54:31.665)
I mean, yeah, you have to play like 300 games, but yeah, like you'll climb.
Lyte (54:32.77)
Alright, guys, I want to point something out to everybody if you haven't noticed, okay? Look at the bundle of supports that we got, like bundle all three roles, okay? Look at the best support in your opinion, it doesn't matter who it is, and the worst support in your opinion. So in my opinion, I think Jeff is the best support, and the worst support is like Ultron, Adam, whatever, doesn't matter. Look at how small the gap is between Jeff and Adam, like relatively speaking, with all the other supports in the middle.
CaptainCoach (54:52.601)
Ultron.
Avenue (54:54.914)
Yeah.
Lyte (55:01.846)
Now compare Psylocke to Scarlett.
Matthew Mills (55:04.403)
Yeah, yeah. There is no support that's less than B tier. It's like B to S tier for supports and like S to F tier for DPS.
Lyte (55:06.11)
Like, it's crazy.
Avenue (55:06.199)
It could be...
It's- it's un- really broken. Yeah, I don't get it.
Lyte (55:12.468)
It's great and because we have 20 plus DPS and they keep at this is next season if no no no actually next season doesn't count every single season they've added a DPS There's never been a tank support season So we already started the game with 20s like 20s DPS We keep adding more DPS the DPS role is wildly in balance where you're only seeing the same five ish characters in DPS like there's actually more supports played then DPS and
DPS has more than double the amount of, triple the amount of characters. Like, it's so bad the balance of DPS in this game. And it doesn't even matter if supports are like good and bad, because every support is better than most DPS, that's why triple support exists.
Avenue (55:44.259)
Yeah.
Avenue (55:55.333)
It's like, yeah, I can just like, would I like play DPS when I could just go Luna Snow and do the same amount of damage and heal my team and freeze and like have the best ultimate in the game. You know what I mean? Like
Lyte (56:04.994)
Like, you remember in season 3.5 where it's like, okay, Bucky is already picked on my team, Jean Grey is banned, what do I play now? I guess I'll go Adam because it's better than every other 20 plus DPS that I could pick. Like, except for Torch, but.
Avenue (56:18.341)
I mean, yeah, like it's like, if I really just want it to like rank, if I want to have a day where I just want to like climb as many ranks as possible, like I can literally just install like Luna and like just like off angle, like DPS and like kill my team and like pop the best ultimate in the game. It's, it's, it's insane. Like it's just ridiculous.
Lyte (56:30.346)
Yeah, her damage is unreal.
CaptainCoach (56:31.333)
Okay, let's do
Do you think that they make support stronger so more people play them?
Lyte (56:39.116)
No, they add more supports. That's the problem.
Avenue (56:39.743)
No, I just think they're trying to cater to casuals. That's all it is.
CaptainCoach (56:44.623)
See, I disagree. I think they make supports OP so it's a role that people are willing to play. Yeah, I think that's a big reason why. And I think you gotta just get used to your supports being boosted. You're gonna get a lot of that until they make the role on par with, like you have to have two supports on your team. You have to.
Lyte (56:45.046)
Add more tanks and supports.
Avenue (56:49.539)
The casuals play them. Yeah.
Avenue (56:59.705)
Yeah.
I feel like a support shouldn't like a character in a game shouldn't just be able to heal bot and like win games. I can't just like sit in the back on the right click and just start winning games. it's just like rocker raccoon is just.
Lyte (57:02.84)
Yeah, you have to.
Lyte (57:11.886)
I mean that's fine, like a lot of people like that.
Matthew Mills (57:12.159)
Like I think we can just balance the role. We don't have to make it super busted if we just start releasing way more supports than tanks. We don't really, I don't know how y'all DPS players feel, but I don't think we need another DPS for a while. We really just don't. We have every flavor of DPS. Just focus on balancing the other roles and you can introduce new stuff there. however you balance it, if there's a new shiny toy, people will still play the role. It's fine.
Lyte (57:19.136)
I agree. Yeah.
Avenue (57:19.789)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (57:20.259)
Yeah.
Avenue (57:26.145)
No, at all. At all. We don't need another DPS.
Lyte (57:26.316)
I agree.
Avenue (57:30.243)
That makes me like.
Avenue (57:39.139)
It just makes me think about like the longevity of the game. Like I feel like we talk about all this stuff now, but like five months from now, I wonder how the game really is going to be when like there's a lot more supports out. There's a lot more tanks added like, and just there's more, there's more of a meta. Like hopefully five months from now, like there isn't just four characters to play. You know what I mean? Like, and it's just, if you don't play these four characters, like you just insta lose. Like I wonder why, if they keep these characters so broken is because they know they're going to be releasing like characters like them in the future. You know what I mean? Like.
Matthew Mills (58:01.043)
Might always be like that.
Lyte (58:06.092)
Yeah they do. Yeah.
Avenue (58:08.813)
So after like
CaptainCoach (58:09.487)
Flyers were really OP right before Angel came out, you know?
Avenue (58:12.101)
Yeah, I just wonder how rivals is going to be like five months from now. Like it's definitely going to be and it's definitely going be in a better state in my opinion because there's going be more broken stuff to use because I feel like the main like the things that people complaining about is just like it's the same four characters. It's the same few characters that are just broken like and all the sports are broken. Well, there's like only five supports and there's only so many DPS and all that stuff. So I feel like the game is actually going to get a lot better like in five months.
Lyte (58:34.122)
Actually, in the support role, the support role itself is very balanced in a micro, like in a vacuum. It is very balanced. If you compare it to the other characters in the game, it's in balance because I think it's very clear that support has the most impact. I don't think that you need... We don't need super broken, hyper broken supports for people to play it. We just need more characters. For me, for example, I never touched the support before Ultron came out.
CaptainCoach (58:47.257)
Hmm.
Lyte (59:02.306)
And I touched Ultron because he was designed to do damage. his personality, he's just very like... He's just like a bro hero. He's like a masculine, cool villain character. And so it appeals to the type of characters that I like to play. So I picked Ultron. And then that opened me up to playing Adam and other stuff. I still will never play Luna or Cloak or Sue or Rocket because I don't like the heal body type of But some people like loading up into rivals and just heal-bombing all day. That's just what they like.
Avenue (59:05.189)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (59:29.321)
So this is a problem that like hero shooter devs will run into where they're trying to create supports that have like all these offensive capabilities, right? Damage dealing capabilities. But the problem is that just becomes better than like DPS. how do you do that? And so what Overwatch's solution to that was they gave DPS like a DPS passive where when DPS do damage, a person is marked and they have like 25 % less healing for like the next three seconds. What Rivals looks like it's trying to do.
Lyte (59:38.093)
Mm-hmm.
Lyte (59:42.286)
Yeah.
Avenue (59:44.26)
Hmm.
Lyte (59:52.174)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (59:56.711)
I don't know the direction they're gonna go in five, but they're adding a lot of antis like to the role. And I can see a future where they just kind of fill up tanks and DPS with like, they just have a whole bunch of anti heals. And it's like, that's, you're not gonna find any anti heals in the support role. So like, that's what they do. I don't really think that that's a good idea necessarily, but it's basically trying to give people a reason to play DPS and then at the same time, allow them to buff these supports and allow them to do damage. Cause otherwise,
Avenue (01:00:13.251)
Hmm.
Matthew Mills (01:00:25.385)
You just have to have supports that do no damage if you want them to be heal body or you have to like heavily nerf the healing. then like it's
CaptainCoach (01:00:27.503)
So make.
Yeah, you're saying make it bit more like rock paper scissors a little bit.
Matthew Mills (01:00:35.879)
Yeah, mean, yeah, just give a reason to pick the role. Like, give people a reason to pick the role. And like right now, the line is too blurred where there's not really a huge reason to pick the role of DPS outside of like, you know, like Daredevil and like Hela and Jean and Tylocke. Like a couple, a few characters, but like that's something that is really hard to balance. It's like, how do you create a character like Adam Warlock that has like all these offensive capabilities, but then also keep him balanced because
CaptainCoach (01:00:39.524)
Right.
Matthew Mills (01:01:05.919)
He either does no damage and then he's just like super, he doesn't really play make, or he does a lot of damage and then he's just better than DPS. Like how do you balance that? It's super hard.
Lyte (01:01:14.102)
Actually, think Adam and Mantis are the two best designed supports in the game because they reward skill expression. You get more heals from headshots. And that's awesome. They should always be good. And I think what you do to promote, a subtle way, I don't know if I've ever heard anyone talk about this actually, people will complain about Adam and Ultron not being good in 2-2-2, so how do you balance it? And how do you remove triple support? You balance it by giving those characters team ups with main supports like Luna.
CaptainCoach (01:01:21.475)
Hmm.
Avenue (01:01:24.673)
Yeah, those are my favorite type of characters like
Matthew Mills (01:01:25.311)
It's true.
Lyte (01:01:44.098)
like Adam Luna team up is good because it promotes playing those two together, but it needs to be something that like heals, right? Like, like you should be incentivized to play like let's say Ultron and Sue together because you get some crazy team up that makes up for the lack of healing through this team up.
CaptainCoach (01:01:59.781)
Yeah, it's a great idea.
Matthew Mills (01:02:00.799)
Makes sense. Still hard, because it might just be broken in triple. It might just be broken in triple, the triple support.
Avenue (01:02:01.797)
That's a great idea.
CaptainCoach (01:02:09.689)
Well, then you also have Supports Getting Banned too, which kind of opens up the can of worms with...
Matthew Mills (01:02:15.111)
If they made enough of them, it would be interesting, but yeah, so they can't be banned out.
Avenue (01:02:18.437)
Can I ask her all? Sorry, go ahead. Light, ahead.
Lyte (01:02:18.606)
Yeah, and it would be... I would just say it'd be... it'd just like depend on the nature of the team up. Like yeah, if you stack it with like another support and it would just like create this issue of where you have so much excess healing because you're playing two main supports plus the Ultron and you have this crazy team up. But it would just really really depend on what it is and it also depends... Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Mills (01:02:36.703)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could be like a cloak bubble or something, like pure healing. Like just a pure healing ability. I could see that,
CaptainCoach (01:02:42.853)
I have an idea, like maybe one that like takes any over-healing your team does since the Ultron Orb is always taking and applying it to the person with the Orb, like as like a bonus shield. So that way it wouldn't make triple heals OP because you'd be applying the shield. Like there's ways you can design it where, cause you don't heal through shields. turning, so with the triple heal comp, for instance, like if you had, like you said Ultron, like something like a team up with another heal would be an issue. If you basically make it so his over-healing turns into more shields, you effectively.
Avenue (01:02:42.884)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:03:11.169)
lower the value of the third healer. Like there's things you can do.
Lyte (01:03:13.73)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's like a really good idea.
CaptainCoach (01:03:16.749)
Yeah, there's a lot of things you can do. I do think light is on to something. What were you going to say though, Avenue?
Avenue (01:03:22.563)
No, I was actually just completely sweet. was gonna ask you guys. How do y'all feel about them removing stacking for a casual game?
Lyte (01:03:27.874)
Horrible, horrible, horrible. I have so many people, so many people that come into my chat every day and ask me if I've heard any news about them bringing back, like I think that's the worst change that they've ever made.
Matthew Mills (01:03:29.405)
Yeah, I don't, why did they do the?
CaptainCoach (01:03:29.878)
yeah, they need to bring that back.
Matthew Mills (01:03:33.331)
Why do they do? It goes back to exactly what you saying, Avenue, where they don't really understand what they want their game to be. Because that's a super, that's like a hardcore, that's like a hardcore, like that's like a hardcore competitive opinion, like thing to do is to make it you can't stack like, whoa. And it's like, is the game competitive or not? are we trying, they're trying, they're doing like some decisions this way, some decisions that way. Yeah.
Avenue (01:03:39.749)
I don't think I think they're having identity crisis.
Avenue (01:03:46.911)
Exactly. So I don't understand if... Yeah, I don't- that's my biggest problem with rivals.
Lyte (01:03:56.558)
To me it's very obviously competitive with the nature of their esport. They had a million dollar...
Matthew Mills (01:04:01.491)
Yeah, they should.
Avenue (01:04:01.802)
It's like they want it to be competitive, but they don't want to lose their player base at the same time. I don't know how to explain it.
Lyte (01:04:05.695)
Yeah, it's like...
Matthew Mills (01:04:07.059)
But like they found a route like the game breached 100K in the zombies PVE like like massive skyrockets and like people playing the game and it's like just do more of that for casuals new heroes fun game modes like that and then we can just have our multiplayer hyper competitive like I think that would be what we could do. No, no worries.
Avenue (01:04:23.845)
Like I feel like quick matches made for casuals. And then if you want to play rank, that's when you get competitive. You know I'm saying? So like, I don't know, man, like if they just make the characters more skill expressive and don't have the characters play for you. And then, I don't know. And like, if they pick a side, I feel like the game will like instantly like get better. Like, I mean, one hot fix of them just picking a side, whether they want it to be a casual game or a competitive game, it could like immediately.
Lyte (01:04:29.474)
Yep. Awesome.
CaptainCoach (01:04:49.529)
Mmm.
Avenue (01:04:52.752)
Draw people into the game like even more
CaptainCoach (01:04:54.251)
I kind of agree with that. That was one of the big problems League had was their overarching design philosophy. They're going through the same thing Marvel Rivals as that League did, where they have some characters that were bouncer on low ranks. I've talked about it on other episodes before. I totally agree. think they just need to double down and go one direction. unfortunately, I just don't see that happening. I really don't think NetEase is.
Avenue (01:05:14.597)
It's such a weird thing to do man, like get rid of stacking but you want to have a casual game and then you want to make these characters like meant for casuals but then you want to have an eSports team. I don't get it. That's the-
Lyte (01:05:22.646)
Yeah. I don't care what anyone says, this game is a competitive game. just is. You don't have a million dollar grand finals without that. That is unheard of. It is unheard of. They dropped three million dollars on the Ignite circuit, and there's rumors of them doing potentially more in the future. Obviously, take that with a grain of salt, but what we do know is three million dollar esports tournament. The devs have said that they like esports, and it's like, okay, well...
Matthew Mills (01:05:29.172)
Go.
Avenue (01:05:31.045)
Yeah, I talk about that all the time. I'm like, why are they hosting a million dollar tournament? Yeah
Matthew Mills (01:05:31.837)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:05:49.741)
Okay, well... Is... Is...
Avenue (01:05:51.429)
then you want a competitive game? Like, you know what I mean? Like...
Matthew Mills (01:05:52.447)
Bounce like it like make it make it if that's the way yeah
Lyte (01:05:52.938)
Yeah, yeah, like balance like it. Yeah, like what?
CaptainCoach (01:05:56.045)
Well is Psylocke a necessary evil then? Like I said back to my initial point, they buff her super hard to sell her summer skins and then in turn that turns into prize money for the pro scene and then it kind of, it's just like, they don't need it?
Lyte (01:06:06.478)
They don't need them bro. Yeah, they're daddies bro. They're mobile game company. They got money. Like they got money.
Matthew Mills (01:06:09.053)
No, they're banking, they don't...
CaptainCoach (01:06:14.725)
Alright, well before we wrap up, what are your thoughts on the zombie mode? Have you guys tried it? Do you like it? Do you think stuff like that's good for the game? Or... Yeah?
Lyte (01:06:19.938)
Yeah.
Avenue (01:06:19.981)
I think it's amazing for the game. Keeps the casuals on one side and puts the competitive players in ranks. Like I said before, you know.
Lyte (01:06:23.459)
Yeah.
Yeah, I I beat Nightmare 4 one time, never playing it again. I think... Yeah, no, it's... It's like... I think it's great for the game. I think it's boring, personally. And I think Nightmare 4 is actually miserable. Like, it's so miserable to play. It is like a DP... Just pick Blade, if you don't pick Blade, you're trolling. Maybe it's different after the patch, but before, if you didn't pick Blade, you were trolling. And then, when the two Scarlet spawn together, and they spam their stun...
Avenue (01:06:32.005)
Everybody says that I've never touched nightmare for you
CaptainCoach (01:06:32.683)
Haha
Lyte (01:06:56.256)
If you get stunned one time, you die. And it's just... It's not for me. But it's good for the game.
CaptainCoach (01:07:01.133)
I missed the TFT mode, the Ultron Matrix.
Matthew Mills (01:07:03.947)
I think it's cool that they have done more modes. The TFT mode, the zombies mode. I hope they keep that up. It shows that they are willing to do stuff like that.
Avenue (01:07:07.567)
Yeah, cool.
Lyte (01:07:07.886)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:07:08.46)
So good.
Lyte (01:07:10.7)
Yeah. It ain't no Junkensigns though. Junkensigns Revenge 2016. That cleared. Like there's nothing like that.
Avenue (01:07:11.016)
yeah.
Avenue (01:07:16.229)
Lucio Ball
Matthew Mills (01:07:17.69)
Oh, yeah Yeah, but what about 2017 2018 2019 all the same fucking game 2020 2021 2022? Oh, yeah, just the same shit over there. Um, okay Oh, okay, so we're gonna wrap things up, but I just want to go around what one one buffer nerf you want to see in 5.0 First you captain coach one buff one nerf real quick
Lyte (01:07:22.838)
Yeah... Yeah...
Lyte (01:07:29.048)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:07:40.597)
Obviously buff Hulk, but I'll try to give a better answer than that honestly I wouldn't mind seeing a like a full rework on some of like the weaker DPS just because I think like part of those part of the reason those characters are balanced is because of their like inherent design and It's like like with scarlet witch for instance. Like I like playing against scarlet witch. So maybe maybe buff
some of the weaker DPS to see if it's more just like a meta thing. I don't know. mean, obviously I want Hulk buff, but yeah, we'll say all those Scarlet Witch people out there. Shout out to my Scarlet Witch watchers. We'll buff Scarlet Witch. One nerf, Psylocke ult, and then what was the last one?
Matthew Mills (01:08:23.871)
Yeah, just just above the nerf that's it. Yeah, just in the seats at two to five. Yeah All right, all right, what about you? but one buff one nerf
CaptainCoach (01:08:26.209)
Okay, I gave a really long answer to give you guys more time to think of your answer.
Avenue (01:08:29.109)
Thank you, thank you, thank
Lyte (01:08:33.826)
Well, think Psylocke has to go without saying, but I think they'll already nerf Psylocke. There's no way that they don't nerf Psylocke ult. I would nerf Emma again. I really don't want to see her go another half season just dominating the game. think her alone just denies so many characters. It denies every melee DPS. It denies most of the melee tanks. It just has to be removed or the game is not playable. And for a buff...
Matthew Mills (01:08:38.685)
Yeah, yeah, surely.
Lyte (01:09:03.734)
I'd like to see Blade get buffed. I think Blade is too cool of a character to be his dogshit ideas. Like, we need to have that character, like, have some type of relevance or presence in this game with his anti-heal mechanic.
Matthew Mills (01:09:15.871)
can see that, yeah. Okay, what about you, Avenue?
Avenue (01:09:18.373)
I'm actually gonna say something different. think they just need to, I guess, buff no hit regs, bro. Get rid of them. I don't know how they'll do it. I don't know how they'll fix it, but make the game feel better. If they buff the no hit regs, a lot of characters get buffed. And if they just need to nerf iframes, get rid of them. I don't like Starlord flipping and it becomes invincible. I don't like magic dashing. No iframes, bro. I'm sick and tired of iframes. I'm sick and tired of no hit regs.
Matthew Mills (01:09:38.335)
No iframes? No iframes?
CaptainCoach (01:09:39.685)
Bro, bro seein'
bro seeing Moon Knight creep up into the meta he's just kind of like hoping they don't not saying anything
Avenue (01:09:47.673)
Dude, they literally somehow fix the servers in this game, like Moon Knight and Blade, I'm telling you right now, they'll skyrocket. I have so many hours on both of them, and a lot of holds me back from winning matches is literally just losing duels because of no-weight rigs.
Matthew Mills (01:09:47.763)
Yeah.
Matthew Mills (01:10:04.223)
I'll say I don't even play I really play the support role like that, but I will say I think that Loki probably deserves a little bit of a buff I I think Honestly daredevil kind of counters him in a way and honestly there like Loki's just like the probably the worst support right now in like ranked play At least for most people
Avenue (01:10:20.974)
Yeah.
Lyte (01:10:22.606)
Oh, I do want to say about Blade. I was talking to one of my friends one time and they suggested that with Blade the anti-heal should be based, like the percentage should be based on how many supports are in the lobby. So if it's one support it's 20%, if two, forty, three, it's sixty, etc.
Avenue (01:10:39.333)
I think that's too much for the game to handle. Too much for the game to handle.
CaptainCoach (01:10:40.709)
I'll agree with that.
Matthew Mills (01:10:42.62)
Interesting, interesting, but... We're gonna end up in this like fucking Rock, Paper, Counter Swapping meta where like Blade alone just completely shits on all triples, so... Well, that... But that is a...
CaptainCoach (01:10:44.741)
The healing just
Lyte (01:10:51.17)
Bennett.
CaptainCoach (01:10:52.101)
Well, doesn't make it like by percentage healing by its nature alone, like counters the fact that there are more healers just like, you know, well, a 40 % of three healers is output is going to be more healing reduced than 40 % of two healers output. So it's like kind of like the way it functions now kind of already does that. It would just be OP at that point, just buff, buff blade, like just buff the healing percent.
Lyte (01:10:59.438)
What do mean?
Lyte (01:11:16.728)
So you think it should be like a flat, like 40?
CaptainCoach (01:11:19.461)
Isn't that what it is? thought it was 40.
Matthew Mills (01:11:20.957)
I don't know. don't even know what it is right now. Yeah, they could they could definitely just up it up about like 10 % or whatever
Lyte (01:11:21.464)
think it's like 20, bro. It's so like, just doesn't matter.
CaptainCoach (01:11:25.541)
They should make it so if people are attacking the target and the healing reduces on them, healers won't be able to heal through it, but it should only last a few seconds is how I think it should work. So it's like a timing window. So boom, healing reduce, everybody do it. Can we nuke them? No. So there's counter play, you have time to get out.
Lyte (01:11:42.84)
Bro, what if they made Blade's anti-heal like an isolation like the Blade himself can't be healed, but the target can't be healed either. Like you mark them for like five seconds and then that would make his lifesteal and his sword like have a value. Like if I'm playing Blade, yes, yes, if I'm playing Blade, if I'm playing Blade and I tag somebody with that gunshot, now neither of us can be healed, but
Avenue (01:11:55.973)
You're so bad.
Matthew Mills (01:11:58.783)
Like a fucking mini-mortar chaser-old? like, like, uh, yeah, yeah, that's what you're saying?
CaptainCoach (01:12:00.897)
Yeah, I was gonna say that sounds like Mord.
Lyte (01:12:09.354)
Wait, what if it was like damage and healing? Like it was like you can't be damaged by anyone else besides the target that you marked.
Avenue (01:12:14.607)
That would be cool. Isolate your target. That would be kind of tough.
CaptainCoach (01:12:15.461)
Hmm.
Lyte (01:12:16.556)
Yes, yeah, you like tag them and then it's just like like a mini 1v1 for five seconds. Yeah, that's like a new hero, yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:12:20.569)
I think we're talking about a new character here. This is like...
Matthew Mills (01:12:22.827)
I legit want like an actual Mordekaiser, Iso like in the game. There needs to be a character. I don't know what character that would be, but it would be sick. Wait, that actually would be sick. Yeah, and in the psychic realm he can stand, you know, like he's like, he's not as a... Yeah.
Avenue (01:12:23.712)
yeah!
That would be super tough.
Lyte (01:12:28.952)
That would be... Can you just alter Trank? GG!
CaptainCoach (01:12:31.296)
dude, Professor X, Psychic Realm? Takes him in the... That'd be sick.
Lyte (01:12:34.936)
No, that'd be fire. Go ahead and cook, Netties. Go ahead and cook.
Avenue (01:12:36.345)
I'm actually really excited to see what they do with all these characters.
Lyte (01:12:40.704)
A-A-And Immortakaiser ult would change this game, bro. Yeah, bro, Immortakaiser ult would literally change the game. It would completely change the game. You just ult the Trank, you just ult the Trank, GG. And then you just, yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:12:42.915)
He could be whoever he wants to be.
Avenue (01:12:47.333)
It'll be so tough.
Matthew Mills (01:12:48.703)
Take full isolation. Yeah, they're just standing in there like, yeah, yeah, looking at your ass, It would be actually really interesting to have like an ult that supports need to bait out first before they fucking press Q. Yeah, like, oh yeah, 100%. All right. Well anyways, thank you all guys for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was so fun talking with y'all. I'm definitely down to have y'all on in the future if either of y'all want to come back for another episode. But first off, Light, tell people where to find you.
Avenue (01:12:50.745)
Yeah, you lose your
Lyte (01:13:00.95)
It would completely change the game if that wasn't the game.
CaptainCoach (01:13:10.703)
Good pod.
Lyte (01:13:18.446)
Yeah, I stream every single day. I do not miss a day. I'm live every day, LightPK on Twitch. And I also have a YouTube, LightPK as well, and Instagram, TikTok, all that other stuff. But yeah, I appreciate you guys having me on.
Matthew Mills (01:13:28.799)
Well yeah, Avenue.
Avenue (01:13:30.667)
I stream five or six days a week on Twitch, I am Avenue, TikTok, I am Avenue, YouTube, I am Avenue, just I am Avenue anywhere and I'm there.
Matthew Mills (01:13:40.819)
Yeah, nice, nice. Yeah, well thank you guys once again for coming on and yeah, see you next time, chap.
Lyte (01:13:46.304)
Appreciate it.