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Mortgage Solutions for the every day Canadian mortgage consumer. Are you thinking about becoming a mortgage broker learn first hand what you should look for in a brokerage and what you need to be successful.
Len 00:02
Welcome. My name is Len Lane, and I am the founder and president of Brokers for Life Inc. and we are Dominion Lending Centres in Western Canada. The topic of our podcast will be about what we consider to be Real Life Mortgage Solutions.
Len 00:18
Today's guest is the long-standing member of Brokers for Life, actually one of the founding members, she has been licensed since 2008. I'm going to read some of your accomplishments within just within deals even. You're an elite Hall of Fame with Dominion Lending, you are top 200 For transactions lifetime, with DLC nationally, and already this year, you are 45th in the country. So, I just started your other numbers, you're probably gonna surpass that by a long shot. You have been diamond level four times, you have been master level once in 2021, although that was given to you after they recalculated everything. You have been platinum level three times, the last time was 2019. Your volume in 2017, you were at 17 million and in 2018, you jumped up to 28 million and in 2021, you hit 48 million. So, obviously, that was a record year, record year for the team as the first one to ever surpass my 42 million. So, congratulations. Very proud of that.
Cheryl 01:29
Yeah, yeah. I was too.
Len 01:29
Ladies and gentlemen, Cheryl Wilkes, Brokers for Life, broker of the year several times, so yay. So, today, we kind of want to talk about a couple of things. The first one being, obviously you start to see those numbers chang in 2017. Is that the first year that you were full time or is that?
Cheryl 01:51
Yeah, it was the first year I really like charged into. 2016 was a bit of a like back and forth year that was when I took that trip for two months and left the country. I got back in 2016 and was like I better hit the ground running here and figure myself out. So, 2016 was sort of a little bit of corporate they had me kind of on call, mostly focusing on mortgage. 2017 was the big first like, yeah, full-time, full speed ahead. No more corporate no been nothing.
Len 02:21
Right. So, you didn't say you were part-time to begin with. But you actually work for a major corporation.
Cheryl 02:26
Indeed, I did. I was I did all kinds of roles. But basically, for the majority of it, I was outside sales with PepsiCo Canada, which was also a great beverage and a few other brands through the mix. It's always been the pop world basically. And I dabbled a little on some of the other sides of the company. But that was about a decade and a half probably with those guys. Good background for the sales piece. But I definitely was not the gung-ho corporate kid I knew that pretty quick.
Len 02:57
I fully understand that that’s why we are here. The worst jobs I ever had were for big corporations.
Cheryl 03:05
I'm lucky I had a great boss though for like a majority of it who just understood me and just kind of like let me go do my thing. So, probably how we stuck around so long.
Len 03:11
So, I know you used to say that your accountant said you had the best part-time job that he'd ever seen, as a mortgage broker, right you're probably still doing at least 10 or 12 million just working part-time. So, what happened or what I guess was the biggest challenge of finally taking that step to go from part-time to full-time?
Cheryl 03:33
To be honest, my blocker was always myself to be very honest. It was the am I going to make enough money to pay my bills because when I was in the back and forth mode was when I was single living by myself and like all those other things right? So, it was the like, Okay, can I do this? I don't know, maybe and then I'd have like a really good month where I was like what am I doing why am I still in corporate? And then you know you have a month like goes down we're like I would not survive this month and I just didn't understand yet how to deal with like the highs and lows. I think it took me probably a little longer because I was so used to corporate and I didn't have that like second person we'll call it, you know where it comes in handy that somebody else has an income coming in. And as you know of course like I met my spouse and well soon to be spouse I guess this year. You know everything just sort of aligned beautifully in terms of the fact that he was very encouraging like what are you doing? Why are you still doing both? You could do way better with mortgages, plus also just that mental space of knowing that if I had a down month it wasn't the end of the world, we could figure it out. Right? So, it was a bit of a catch-22. I also hit a point in the corporate level where anybody might be watching this probably knows this but I hit a point in the wall with company stuff where I was just like the red tape, the hoops to jump through, they were GPS tracking us. There was all kinds of things that popped in, in the last sort of year or two that I was there that I was like, No, I'm done, like, I'm ready to go. And then it just, everything just sort of came together. I was pretty lucky, I think. But I think it's also, you know, the stars sort of aligned, probably because I sort of knew they would eventually.
Len 05:21
Yeah, they've been telling you that for years anyway. So, they just enforced it for me. Yeah, there's no question, right? I even like for me to walk out of the show home and go full-time into mortgages, there was always that, what do we do now, this month is going to be slow. And then they'd have like, five crazy months, and then, you know, then winter would hit. So, there is that concern.
Cheryl 05:44
So, totally, I still joke with like, clients of mine, when we're talking about property taxes, like do you pay annually? Do you pay monthly, and I'm like, I still pay everything annually, because we all make more money in June that I'm going to make in February, like, I still joke about this. But the difference is, is that you just get used to it, you get used to planning for it, you know what you got to do in like October to prep for like February basically at this point.
Len 06:13
Right. And that's true for I think for just about anybody who's self-employed, if there's an up and down in any business, if there is an every business, it doesn't matter what it is, right? But it's it's planning that and like I said, when I started, I had a $50,000 line of credit that had zero balance on it. It's been fully used at one point and then zeroed again. And yeah, well, that's, that's just part of that up and down of self-employed, you kind of have to have some kind of backup plan, or to know what your cash flow is going to look like. Right?
Cheryl 06:44
And that was me last year. Right? I still had staff to pay and I had a baby in March. So, you know, clearly was okay with having a down year in terms of volume. But that doesn't mean you're paying your staff any differently. Right? So, it definitely was, it was one of the years that you just, you just hunker down and call it a day and wait for the sun to come up the following year.
Len 07:05
We'd love to have a big storefront office but learned years ago that, you know, keeping the overhead down as low as you can. It is important and in any business, I guess, but it's like. Yeah, cuz, you know, if we're paying $15,000 a month for rent then takes a lot of business to make that happen. Right? Where we make 1,500. Big years, ramped up rather quickly, from 17 to 18. What point was it important to have an assistant?
Cheryl 07:36
Oh, probably way before I actually hired Kelsey, let's be honest, that year that I did, 17 million was me by myself. And I realized that I'm good at a lot of things. But I am not good at a lot of things. Well, okay, I'll take that back. It’s not that I'm not good. I just, I don't like them enough. I didn't want to do that kind of thing. Right? So, you know, I was like, I am great with the people. I am the problem solver. And I'm known as this like in the office I sit in like you got a problem you got to deal with somebody else can't figure out, send it to Cheryl. So, I enjoy that piece. I like people, I like the conversations about what they're planning on doing and being a part of that stuff. But as your wife loves and knows so well. There's a reason that you guys jokingly gave me the worst compliance person in the brokerage at one point was because I just was like, I got deals done, I did all the paperwork, but like, I just there's so much stuff on the wayside that I just knew I had to get done, and probably could have done more efficiently. But that was sort of that like, Ah, right, if I'm going to do anything over this, and my brain is exploding at this kind of volume, and the goal is bigger. I need a human who's better at this stuff than I am. And in came Kelsey.
Len 08:56
Along came Kelsey, she'll be one of my interviews as well, how to manage unmanageable people.
Cheryl 09:03
Come on, I know my flaws. I'm not a horrible person to work for. I know this.
Len 09:07
It's funny. I can't remember the name of the book that I've read several times now. And it's talks about being that practitioner right, to being the business running the business, which is what you're doing at this point. I think you realize that you had limitations on documentation, perhaps not that you didn't get it, it just that it maybe didn't make it into the payroll system, the way that the boss wants it to be, right?
Cheryl 09:33
Totally, totally. Well, I also still had a corporate job too. So, I was never as motivated in that sort of phase right where I was like, I still got a paycheck every week we're fine.
Len 09:46
Miss Margie wants every dime accounted for and sent out and we don't like to be in our accounts, so which is good thing, so–
Cheryl 09:53
I appreciate it. I've never had to worry that the numbers were wrong.
Len 09:59
Right, which is why I'm not doing that job either, right? Yeah, that's just way too much.
Cheryl 10:04
It’s just know your strengths and know your weaknesses and find somebody who's better at your weaknesses than your strengths, right?
Len 10:08
So, the importance of having that assistant, obviously allowed you to grow. So, how much of a day is spent with Kelsey on a file?
Cheryl 10:22
Minimal. For us right now, in terms of like, process, I'm the initial entry conversation. Hi, how are you? What's the master plan? What are we doing? What are we trying to accomplish? What’s your timing, all that good stuff. I input the initial welcome piece, you know, where they're getting the application and a list of documents. Kelsey takes it from there completely in terms of documentation, follow-up on it, all of that good stuff. Once their documents are all in then the client will meet up with me again, for that pre-approval meeting, whether that's in person at my office, or most people take like the Zoom or phone call type stuff. I do the pre-approval, and then again, Kelsey kind of takes it until the client goes live. So, if there's anything else that we need to collect, if there's any follow-up or information, obviously, the system does some of it for us in terms of like the follow-up and this sort of drip lead campaign type thing. But in terms of the human necessary type steps, I'm basically the front-end stuff, she is everything in the background, I guess you could say in terms of that piece. And then once the client is live, they'll hear from me in terms of rates, terms, payments, all that kind of good stuff. Simultaneously, with Kelsey on, hey, we need a few updated things, maybe a pay stub or a bank account, all the usual stuff we know we got to deal with. And every lender is a little different. So, if it's the lender that wants two pieces of ID, please send it or all the easy stuff. I'm the one that normally hits go on the files in terms of like the actual submission to the lender, she does all the documentation, she does all the communication with the underwriters or the document review people through the whole process. Once in a while, if I'm trying to help out or something easy that I can just message back like an explanation. Sure, absolutely. I'm going to step in for that. But generally speaking, that's 100% her, and then I do the client review in terms of that conditional approval to go through everything, just make sure they understand what they're doing. They know what's coming next, they know the steps that they're kind of looking at, they understand what's coming up to them in terms of, you know, condition removals, and what does that mean, and what documents do we have left and all that kind of good stuff. And then she generally takes it from there. Again, once we've signed in terms of touching base before they go to see the lawyers, we have a template that goes out after they've removed conditions with next steps. Communication with the lawyers is also Kelsey. Or, as you know, I now have a new part-time who's starting so she'll be taking on some of that stuff. But generally speaking at that sort of that admin role that is not me, I'm doing the face-to-face stuff that's important. I'm also the communication with all of the realtors, I'm the relationships with those realtors, like, that's my strength is people and the problem-solving piece. Everything in terms of the compliance, the payroll, the documentation, all that stuff. She likes that stuff. She prefers doing that piece of the job. We've talked about it.
Len 13:19
Yeah, and that is of two different people. Like, I did a ton of business by myself. But at some point, it's like that can bog you down all day long. So, that you can't really go look for other business. Right. And that's part of the the overall picture I think that a lot of people struggle with, we have some great salespeople out there that are in the industry, but my guess is that they're not good at maybe documentation, right? So–
Cheryl 13:47
Well, and they're too afraid to hire somebody which I get. I mean, we see it all the time in this industry, whether you're mortgage brokers, realtors, like whatever it might be. People are terrified. Like I hired Kelsey, on, I think I guaranteed her 10 hours a week to start. I just said you're an hourly rate, I can keep you busy for 10 hours a week just doing some compliance and payroll stuff. Plus we had her like, we post a funny on social media once a week because I like humour and I like dad-level humour in real estate. So, it's very me and she thinks it's hilarious. And it's also just a nice brain break when you're stuffed into paperwork all day. But I kind of said I can keep you busy for 10 hours. I can't guarantee more than that. And I think what three months maybe at most, maybe six at most that she was working for me that I was like, Oh no, I need you full time and she was working 40 hours a week for me and has done ever since.
Len 14:37
So, what year was that? Do you remember?
Cheryl 14:38
Oh, 2018, I think it was. You said 2017 was the 18 million year I think, right?
Len 14:48
Yeah. And then in 2018 you jumped up to 28 million. So, that’s almost double, right?
Cheryl 14:52
Right, and that’s the year I hired her, she came in with me in March. almost doubled your business in 12 months there so that that
Len 14:55
Almost double your business in 12 months, so obviously Kelsey more than paid for herself and then some, I’m sure.
Cheryl 15:00
Oh, 1,000% Yeah. And then her switching to be licensed was a game changer, obviously for both of us, where she could now do a lot of things you can't when you're unlicensed. And I also gave her a pretty big hike on payroll obviously, for that, because of the fact that I was now able to take a vacation, like, and here you review the document. And, you know, I've had a few trips where, you know, like this most recent one where I was in on that DLC trip a couple of weeks back, like, we're drinking from a firehose, right now in terms of being busy, right, so I know there's no way between training our new part-time gal Rebecca, and trying to just to stay in business. There's no way she was going to sustain that for me but I'm technically I'm on a work trip anyway. So, it's not that big of a deal. Everybody else is on headsets and laptops. So.
Len 15:53
We’re always on a work trip, trust me. Or working on the trip one of the other so yeah, but that's just the way this industry is. And I think it's because of the advances in technology, right? You know, even though it was much as took a while for everybody to get on to velocity, but it's like, it from my standpoint, at least it takes out a good portion of what a lot of admins would actually do, right?
Cheryl 16:18
It also cuts down the amount of different servers you need for things.
Len 16:22
Yeah, definitely. Right. Everything's in one place, so.
Cheryl 16:27
And you know, as well, as I do, I was hesitant to join it, I was a little delayed and everybody else, granted, I also when we started embracing it was like ready to pop with Archer. So, you know, took a bit of a brain break on that one before we dove in, but it's just a little bit of everything. You know, where I was the one server, obviously, to hit go, there's sort of entry in a CRM sort of just for like conversation information and like client info and all that kind of stuff. And then I had another CRM that was like post-closing that's been rolling for like forever, it kind of just encompasses everything. And it added on all of this stuff, like we've really gone gun ho on the reminders type stuff, like the worktasks, the workflows, and things like that. Yeah.
Len 17:11
So, yeah, new question. So, you've been in the REMAX River City office for quite some time? How many years?
Cheryl 17:19
Ah, I think it was around the same time, like 20, sort of, I think was end of 2016 that we technically joined. But I was still sort of playing kind of corporate at that point. So, it was like, 2017 when I started being there full-time.
Len 17:19
So, what do you think are the main benefits of being in that office being in any real estate office, I guess?
Cheryl 17:44
I mean, there's the extrovert benefit of now I have Office friends, as my spouse laughed at me for because being outside sales for a decade and a half. It's lonely, like you see customers all day, and that's fine. And after I've been in it long enough, you know, but it was it was as simple as just having a space outside of my house with other people around and Hi, how are you, which, for somebody who's an extrovert personality type, like me is important, because working at home by yourself, for me is jus,t you might as well lock me in, in a jail cell, like, for my brain, it doesn't do well, when you need a break, and you want to go have lunch, and there's somebody else to have lunch with, that was a huge benefit for me personally. Also, being that you're, if you need an outside space, if you're gonna pay for an office space, in my opinion, it better be more than just an office space, because anybody can pay for four walls and a desk. But like, sure, I pay more technically, for my office space than what other people pay. And people think it's expensive, but it's those, it's not like you go and have lunch, and there's a realtor there and you're having a conversation with them. We get invited to all of those events. So, we're at their Christmas party, I'm at there awards events, we get invited to sponsor a bunch of stuff. So, your name is out there. They do monthly meetings that you know, they kind of rotate between the bankers and brokers in terms of presenting something that you're seeing right now to the realtors. It's that sort of soft, hi, how are you? And proving as I joke with people that you're an intelligent human, and you're more than just somebody bugging them to go do you want to give me business? Which we all know that Realtors get those phone calls every 30 seconds from mortgage brokers that are new, I get it. That's how they want to try and prospect it being the foot in the door and being the human that's around at all these events. And personally for me, like my spouse jokes about it, but I'm very very passive about it. Hi, how are you? I like people. So, I am happy to have a conversation with you. And if we ended up doing business together, amazing. But I'm not the person that starts with the business card and I've found that for me personally, that's been my win because I've got probably 20 to 30 agents at least in that office. I may not be your primary person, I might not be your go to and you know what you might be somebody who does a smaller volume because you don't really want to be slugging it all day every day. But when a client says, Hey, I need a mortgage broker, I know I’m their person, and we're happy to help them. And you know what I mean like, it's kind of one of those things. And because they see me at events, and they chat with me, and we get along, and they all know that I run a tight ship. And they all know that, I mean, obviously, social media and all that stuff, blasts, like, we're productive at what we do. And you know, like myself and Kelsey, like my little team, like we, we do a good chunk of volume, we know what we're doing. So, it's a bit of that catch-22 in terms of the fact that you get the sort of ancillary benefits of just having people around. But it honestly it is, it's that communication piece that you get as soon as you join that office. But it is not an easy grind. Like, it took me years of going to literally everything and meeting these people and liking these people and vice versa. And sort of saying the like, Hey, I may not be your end all be all. I may not be your only mortgage broker. I don't expect to be because let's be honest, in this industry, nobody that is productive has just one guy. Nobody. You don't have just one lawyer you refer, you don't have just one mortgage person. You don't have just one realtor partner, nobody does. So, it's being the important person or the person that's at top of mind. That is the key. But you get that from being in the office and going to all those things. So, it’s time commitment that not everybody has.
Len 21:34
Yeah, and that was the difference. I was in that same office before. But I'll be 15 years older than everybody else in the office. Oh, it's five o'clock, you guys are going to the bar. I still got stuff to do so. But, yeah, there's no question that and you know, everybody thinks you go into the real estate office and business happens right away. But you're right, you've got to build A. Relationship and B. show them that you can do your job, right, there's no question that just falls off the tree. But you know, and you talked about rent earlier, and I'm going like, I always think of it this way. If the rents $2,000, I have to get one deal, you would have to get one deal to pay for that. Right?
Cheryl 22:16
It pays for itself, probably 10 fold.
Len 22:20
Maybe more this month.
Cheryl 22:22
That's what I mean, right? And like I said, it's one of those things where it's just like, in my personal opinion, it's, you know, you're basically paying for that partnership, and the office space is just included. And I mean, I'm lucky that we were also like already a part of that group when they moved to the new location. So, I also pay for like, heated underground parking that I share with somebody and like, it's all of the extra sort of things that I know that not everybody's got depending on what office they're in. I also sit in an office with, you know, let's be honest, a group of agents that's 200 plus agents in their ownership, like in across three locations, I see a lot of bodies go past me. And my office is across from the three major boardrooms in their biggest office. So, it's a good location for us. It also means I'm not on the agent side, though, which was done on purpose by them when they set it up. They said no, like, we're on the one side for its client-facing. And then the realtors have a separate side that's very like rah rah realtor. You don't I mean, there's always like their stats and their stuff. It's specific to them, right? It's not a client-facing space from that perspective. But it works so beautifully.
Len 22:16
So, definite benefits to it. I know that a lot of agents have talked about it. And they always, like I said, they always get a little scared about paying the rent. But in reality, it's their cheap really when you get especially when you got 200 agents access to but even if you have 50 right, so yeah, so.
Cheryl 23:54
But I mean, like how many agents do you need to deal with to do good business? Like 20? Like, let's be honest, and like to do like big volume? You know what I mean but like, and this is the thing, like I said, we work with some big teams that do big volume. We work with some individuals that do bug sprinkle a year, like, there's such a spectrum, obviously, in this whole industry for everybody. But it's, you know, and my spouse ended up being the one sort of saying, like, Cheryl, like, you don't actually need that many business partners to be doing well. And there's like, I think I counted like, there's probably nine of us that are in finance, like between brokers and bankers. I think there's nine of us now between their three locations. And there's zero issues between any of us, we're all buddies. Hi, how are you? We all like at the events we all have a drink together. We all know each other well, like some of them are brokers, all different brokerages, all different brands, like you know, and then the bankers obviously but like, there's so many people in that office and there's so much business to go around that there's no lack of that for anybody. And there's a bunch of us that are doing big volume. So.
Len 25:00
Just think of the names that I know off the top of my head that are there, and you're all different personalities, there is no question there.
Cheryl 25:07
That too, that's the most beautiful part about it is that the realtor that wants to work with me, doesn't get along with maybe another person that's in the office and vice versa. I'm like, great. Like, there's certain things I do well, I mean, like, as you know, we joke about it all the time. I'm the investment person, the rental person, you know, so if it's somebody asking you about that, I’m the obvious choice generally in the office, when somebody's asking about it, I see it all the time, and they have a group chat. I’m wondering about rental properties, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've had another broker tag me. Talk to Cheryl. She's got them. She knows them. You know what I mean? Like, because everybody knows. I mean it first-time homebuyers the regular stuff, of course, right? But it was a pretty intricate, like, post and I obviously somebody was like, Cheryl is probably the only one that's gonna understand this.
Len 25:52
It's like, way too much paperwork for me. That's usually where I end up.
Cheryl 25:56
Totally, totally don't get me wrong. Kelsey has heart failure every time one of those people comes on with us.
Len 26:01
Don't have the time. Thank you.
Cheryl 26:03
Well, but I mean, here's the thing, all it takes is one deal with a realtor you don't know, to go well, and somebody else have backed out of it, or somebody else be like, Oh, this can't get done. And you fix it. And you are in for life. And that was 90% of what I initially did was, hey, you have a deal that's going sideways, or your guy's not around? Call me.
Len 26:30
And that's just that be there. And know your job, right? That's the other part of it as well.
Cheryl 26:35
I'm basically there every day. This is the other thing to like, people notice when you're there all the time. And I'm there in the evenings too, right? Like, I mean, you know, this I do two days a week, where I don't come into like lunchtime. I do all my life stuff in the morning. But I'm in the office till eight, nine o'clock at night. Those agents that are around in the evenings, they notice and even the people stopping by like right now in busy season. There's a lot more people using the boardrooms, of course, and stuff like that. Slow season, nah, it’s a party of one. That's totally fine. It's nice and quiet after five. But it just takes somebody seeing you a couple of times. You're still there at seven o'clock at night, and wow, you work late. Yeah. It's what you got to do to get stuff done. And this is my commitment to my clients and my realtor partners and stuff like that. And then it's like ding, they have a client who wants to talk to somebody at 6:30 pm-7 pm. And they're like, right, Cheryl does evenings. Right? Don't get me wrong, it's not every night all night. But it's the silly things that people don't really realize is how people kind of CO relate you with like that would work.
Len 27:37
Right? Yeah, no, it's yeah, there's definitely a lot of advantages to it. Obviously. It's something that's worked out really well for you. I think we will let you get back to your family today. I'm sure John needs a break already upstairs with the two boys.
Cheryl 27:53
Probably, yes.
Len 27:56
Again, ladies and gentlemen, Cheryl Wilkes, Brokers for Life. Thanks for coming out today.
Cheryl 28:01
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's always fun to chat about all the things that I forget that we are up to in a day.
Len 28:09
Thanks for listening today. I hope you found the information that we provided to be useful in your mortgage journey. And remember, you can always find our associates at www.brokersforlife.ca/associates. Have a great day.