Badlands

Dive into the world of acclaimed director Terrence Malick with the season premiere of the Director's Chair Podcast! Host Ryan Rebalkin welcomes guest Katie for an engaging discussion on Malick's 1973 debut film, Badlands. From Ryan's personal journey discovering Malick through The Thin Red Line to Katie's first-time watch, we explore the film's tight script, stunning cinematography, iconic music (including nods to True Romance and Hans Zimmer), and standout performances by Martin Sheen and Sissy Spacek. We break down the story of lovers on the run inspired by real-life killers, themes of innocence mixed with violence, animal symbolism, and Malick's poetic narration style. Whether you're a film buff or new to Malick's work, this episode highlights why Badlands remains a 70s cinema gem on a shoestring budget. Don't miss our thoughts on comparisons to Bonnie and Clyde, Dirty Dancing soundtrack ties, and Malick's eccentric career hiatus.

 For more retro film discussions, visit Katie's Retro Made podcast.

Creators and Guests

Host

Katie Geilenkirchen

Host

Ryan Rebalkin

What is The Director's Chair Network?

Join Ryan and many featured guests and other hosts as they break down and review a variety of directors and their films!
So far, this podcast has featured films from Edward Zwick, John Hughes, Brian De Palma, and Michael Mann.
Soon, we will feature Edgar Wright, Sam Peckinpah, Paul Verhoeven, and David Fincher!

badlands final.mov
The End
The End
I'm very excited to have with me Katie to start this premiere of the season. Katie, thank you and welcome.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be on the very first episode for this season.
The reason why I started this director's chair network is because I said before with Ed Zwick was there's directors that I enjoyed in my youth.
I guess it was almost like my youth from the age 15 to 25 was the key movie watching experiences when I was young and had time.
It's kind of what I had time. But it was a key time where I watched a lot of movies, went to the theaters a lot, rented movies, all that good stuff.
And there was a few directors that weren't the Steven Spielberg's that weren't the Christopher Nolan's of today, let's just say, or Quentin Tarantino's even.
Where I was like, I kind of like that director's work. And I would key in on, oh, Ed Zwick directed that as well. And then I did Michael Mann. I was like, oh, he directed that as well.
So I kind of keyed in and Terrence Malick was a Johnny come lately as well for me because he, in my, you know, when I was 15 or whatever it was, I granted 1998 is when Thin Red Lion came out and that was his third film.
We'll get to that, of course, when we get to it. But what I'm getting is I love war films.
This movie comes on. I heard, I remember everyone talking like an entertainment weekly and all these magazines. Everyone's like, oh, this guy's been away forever.
Duh, he's a great director and he's finally coming out of hibernation or whatever. And he's directing a war film. Like who? Why is everyone talking about this guy? Like he's the greatest director that ever lived.
And so I saw the Thin Red Lion in the theaters. I even read the book and I was blown away by that movie. And of course, I'll talk about that movie when I get to that movie.
Terrence Malick, he's an odd one in a crazy good way. That's sort of my mini, mini journey of how I became a Terrence fan. But before I talk too much about myself, because I'll do that throat, you know, I'm on every episode.
So Katie, what, if any, is your fandom or knowledge of Mr. Malick?
You know, I'm glad that you just explained to us kind of how you became a fan and, you know, why you're doing the season. Because I had zero. Like I am completely unaware of Terrence Malick.
Like when you sent me the list of possible options, I like looked up the IMDB ratings of them and I chose the best one and it happened to be his first work.
Oh, interesting. Okay. Interesting. Okay. So you cheated a little bit.
I did, but well, I looked into a couple cause I was like, oh, I've heard of some of them. I had never heard of Badlands before, but I was like, well, it looks to be pretty good. And then I saw the cast and I was like, I'm in, let's do this one.
So you never heard of Terrence Malick until I invited you to come on the show. That's kind of crazy, but you've heard a couple of the movies. What were the movies you sort of like, oh, I knew that movie existed for you?
Yeah. I think it was like a tree of life. Is that one? And the, the thin red line is that? Yeah. Those are the ones I'd heard of.
Sure. Fair enough. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, those were probably his biggest, some of his most recently, his biggest successful movies. Now anyone that's a Terrence Malick fan or film nerd or buff again, just a reminder, this podcast, I'm not going to me and my co-host throughout the season. We're not going to bore you with all the details. It's not a biography podcast. It's not a Wikipedia podcast. I mean, cause everyone could just do that themselves. People can just, Hey, you want to know about the movie? Go Google it. You get all the trivia.
I don't necessarily have to, but I'll give peripheral stuff because there are the casual listeners and film buffs out there.
And again, if you're listening to this episode because you're a Terrence Malk fan, so I just want to give people an idea that we don't just say, hey, this is all the things Terrence Malk.
I mean, you can read all about him online.
But he is an interesting character because even I don't have off the top of my head a lot of stuff.
I just know that he did two incredible films at the beginning of his career, Badlands and Days of Heaven, which were bang, bang.
And then he took this crazy hiatus where he wrote like a huge, like a bunch of screenplay.
Like, obviously he's a creator.
I don't think he's crazy, but he's.
But I think when you deal with people who are very creative and very good at what they do, they can be eccentric.
I think there's a little bit of a combo.
I don't know why that is, but it seems like there's a high Venn diagram between creative genius and eccentricism.
So he basically goes in like, not quite like Brian Wilson did, but a little bit of recluse.
But he created the whole time, wrote screenplays, dah, dah, dah.
He films for a long time.
Like he's working on a film right now where it's the life of Jesus in parables.
And it sounds like a fascinating project, but it's been like four years.
They started filming.
He's still editing and tweaking.
Like the guy just, it's weird.
You know, like it's just like, and I bet you if it came out, it'd probably look incredible.
And that's what I like about Terrence right off the bat.
And of course we're going to get into bad lines, but right off the bat, what I love about him is his eye for the cinematography, his look.
Oh yeah.
Angles.
His.
Yeah.
He's just a visual auteur.
So even some of his later films that have been a little bit derided, like you probably saw in the ratings, I think people might not like the poetry, so to speak of his, of his later films.
And what I found about going back in time and rewatching this for the podcast, I'd, you know, I'd seen this once before, but just once before.
After I became old, I wanted to see his two films before the thin red lines.
Like, I'm going to go see the two films that he did before the thin red lines.
I love that film so much.
And badlands, I had forgotten just how tight of a script it is compared to his later work.
And it's, it's.
Yes.
Oh yeah.
This is a.
Interesting.
This is a tight.
Script for Terrence Malick.
So let's get into it.
Let's get into it.
1973.
This movie comes out.
We will talk spoilers.
I always encourage my listeners.
If you haven't seen the film already, go see it.
If you really don't want anything spoiled at all.
I don't even watch trailers before I see a film.
So that's how I am.
Not that I hate spoilers.
I hate the term spoiler.
It's just an overused term, but I just kind of like, I want to see what the story where it takes me.
It's like in a weird way.
It's like getting the book and you read like every fourth chapter.
Like I don't want to know anything that comes up in the book.
I just want to read the book front to cover.
Like the story should be good enough that I don't need any hints on how to get through the book or the movie.
Okay.
We will be talking about the film, but we're not going to go plot by plot.
We're not doing that either, but we'll, we will talk about things just as we do in a conversational way.
I felt the film what stuck out to us, but here's the overall synopsis of this film.
It's about a 15 year old girl, Holly Sargas, who narrates her whirlwind romance with the 25 year old garbage collector and Korean war veteran Kit Carruthers in 1959 Fort Dupree, South Dakota.
After Kit charms the James Dean obsessed teen and makes it takes her virginity.
Her disapproving sign painting father kills her dog as punishment.
We'll talk about that.
Prompting Kit to murder him.
Yep.
Burn the house to fake their suicides and flee with Holly to the Montana Badlands.
There they live in a tree house until Kit guns down three bounty hunters, then shoots his ex-co-worker Cato and possibly a young couple locked in the cellar.
Evading a massive manhunt, they raid a rich man's mansion for supplies in his Cadillac, but a dissolution.
Holly surrenders during the police chase to Canada, Kit calmly charming the arresting officers of National Guard with souvenirs is later executed while Holly receives a probation and marries her defense attorney's son.
So there you go.
This is a big spoiler for you, but you know, it's funny.
I mean, if you're really listening to this podcast because you haven't seen the film, I apologize.
But at the same time, you probably didn't even remember what I even said to those.
This is more of a reminder to those who've seen the film.
I think more than anything with the Terrence Malick film.
There's no spoiler because the film isn't so much about the story.
It's about the journey, the scenes, the acting, the setup.
So what was your overall, not a rating per se, Katie, but this is your first Terrence Malick film, correct?
Yeah, I did like it.
Okay.
So sometimes expectations throw me off.
If I don't have any expectations or low expectations and then, so then I'm like pleasantly surprised.
The opposite can sometimes also be true.
I think I oversold the film.
Yeah.
You didn't at all.
I, you know, I saw the IMDb rating.
So I was like, okay, I'm in for a treat here.
I did like it.
I thought it was a very well-made movie on such a small budget.
There was some very interesting choices made and the music was probably my favorite part.
I will say I didn't really know what to expect.
And I was like, oh yeah.
So it, it was different than I thought it was going to be.
I'm a little surprised.
It has such a high IMDb rating though.
I'm not, but I also, I can understand.
This is what I love about Terrence is I'll be interested to hear people's thoughts as we go through the films, different co-hosts, because it's like a favorite band.
Either you get the gist of what the artist is trying to do and you're into it or people listen to the same band that you love.
You're like, I don't get it, man.
It's not speaking to me.
Terrence speaks to me.
Okay.
Something about his visual poetry, filmmaking.
I like his use of music.
I like his images.
I like, like how he does things.
And this film, like I said, believe it or not, is, is such a tight story.
And I, I haven't seen days of heaven for a while.
So I suspect it's sort of the same thing because even Terrence said with his last film, which I haven't seen yet.
It's, it's, it sounds amazing.
There's another war film, but a, a conscious objector, I think one of the wars.
And he even says, like, I've repented of my sins of being, I think he overdid the poetry and people watch his movies.
Like, what is the theme of this?
Or sorry, what is the story?
Like, what's the, like, what's the story?
Like, it just seems to be a lot of like fancy images and poetry type dialogue and narration.
He loves the narration.
So speaking of narration.
Yeah.
This movie is narrated by a Sissy Spacek and we're going to get into the cast.
There's only really two actors that I knew before this.
Like, I don't know the other actors.
Warren Oates or Ramon Berari, I think who played Cato.
Oh no, he didn't play Cato.
I'm looking at the pictures.
Sorry.
On Wikipedia.
I don't recognize which character he was in the film.
But then the guy named Warren Oates, that was, he, oh, interesting.
So he was best known for performances directed by Sam Peckinpah, which is coming to our network.
Uh-huh.
Oh, interesting.
So Warren Oates will be talked about on the network when, uh, when that's covered by Scott,
who is, and who will be bringing Sam Peckinpah to the network, which I can't wait to cover those films.
So yeah, he played Sissy's Spacek's father, character's father.
Uh, but before we get to even to the characters and the actors, you did bring up the music.
Did you recognize this piece?
Number one.
Uh, are you kidding me?
I literally like stopped it and I looked at, I was like, oh my God, this is, I don't even know my brain.
There's too many things.
I was like, this is from True Romance.
Yes.
Love that movie.
And that piece of music.
So I was like, this is You're So Cool by Hans Zimmer at the end of True Romance.
Watching that, this song was the first time I ever gave a shit about a musical composer in a movie.
Really?
I wasn't into it until I looked up, you know, whenever I was like, what is this?
Who is this?
And then, so that's how I became a Hans Zimmer fan.
Well, I was like, it's the same.
So I was like, oh, learn then learning that this is like a direct, like purposeful paying of homage to this True Romance.
Tony Scott purposefully did that.
And that it was, I guess the very xylophone-esque piece of music is the Gassenhauer.
Yes.
They both come from that by Carl Orp.
And I didn't, I've never heard of him or that piece of music before.
So I guess we can thank Tony Scott and Hans Zimmer.
I totally geeked out over it.
I was like, this is amazing.
Maybe I'd forgotten because we've podcasted a lot together over the years.
And I'd forgotten or didn't know that you were such a True Romance fan.
Tony Scott is actually one of the directors I'm thinking of doing for this network.
I think it's such fun films.
They're just fun films.
True Romance is in my top 10.
I love that movie.
Are you calling True Romance?
I think True Romance, if we do Tony Scott, might have to be a five-parter.
I think there's just too much in that movie.
It's incredible in so many ways.
Yeah, I agreed.
Okay.
Well, okay.
Just like you, I geeked out.
So when I heard this theme, I was like right away, oh, this is the True Romance theme.
Of course, one of my favorite movies too of all time.
I saw that at the theaters.
I loved it.
Like I said, that was right in that wheelhouse of like, I'm watching movies.
I like the Tony Scott aesthetic.
I was a Quentin Tarantino fan.
I saw that.
Oh, he wrote that film.
I'm like, I'm geeking out.
I bet you it was Quentin that told Tony to put the music in.
Because Quentin has always used music for his films.
It's such an obvious nod that I can't believe I never connected to the rewatch of Badlands.
Meaning like, oh, they not only, they used the music from Badlands because they literally
True Romance Badlands 90s version.
It's a total parallel.
I didn't, again, I didn't know what to expect from this movie because I hadn't seen it before.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of movies, I guess, that parallel it.
It's the whole like Bonnie and Clyde.
Bonnie and Clyde's obvious because it's the male-female.
And that's what makes this movie such an interesting juxtaposition.
It's because you have the loose cannon male guy who's charismatic, though.
He loves his girl.
And that's True Romance.
That's the whole True Romance.
They loved each other equally.
That was, I mean, it's not a ripoff.
True Romance is an homage.
Meaning the mission is different in True Romance than it is in this.
But the whole idea of the male-female running from the law, getting mixed up in things, things
like that.
And yeah, this has obviously a different ending in everything too.
Check this out.
So it's an actual 16th century German street tune.
Is it called Gassenhauer?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
Is that crazy?
This is, so they're saying it was 16th century.
So in the 1500s.
Wow.
A guy named Lockhammer Lederbuck, who was born 1455.
Then Carl Orff adapted it in his 1935 finale play and for his music education series.
So it was written in the 1500s.
That is wild to me because of the xylophone.
It's so unique.
I don't know what instrument was used.
The original.
It was probably a piano.
It was probably.
Okay.
Yeah.
But the xylophone really makes it stand out.
Yes.
It has like an island-y vibe.
Didn't gain global fame until this film.
It was a piece of work that probably musical.
Obviously, Terrence knew the musical piece, but it gained global fame when Terrence Malick used for this film.
He wanted a childlike arrangement scoring Kit and Holly's idyllic Badlands life for the opening, closing credits and throughout the film.
Turning the medieval melody into a cinematic icon of innocence and violence mixed.
So that's what I love about this music.
It is like childlike and innocent feeling, almost like a Gaelic type.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
Fleeting through the woods.
And, you know, as they're gathering, you know, chickens and setting up their little camp and da, da, da.
They're just like, it's like a peaceful kind of life.
And it's like, but it's mixed with violence and chaos.
And Terrence would just direct this film.
This is his script.
And he produced it.
It was like his like first work.
Is this his first work?
And he directed, wrote, and produced it on a no money, you know.
$300,000 budget.
That's nothing sauce, really.
And he was 28 years old.
So Martin was older than that.
He was 32.
So Martin would have been the kind of the.
The pro, the old pro.
The pro, yeah, the old hand.
Because he'd done lots, even at 30, he'd already done lots of TV and movie work.
But yeah, he was definitely almost the seasoned veteran, so to speak, on the set.
What I like about so far about the movies, the directors I've picked in it, maybe, maybe it's, you know, it's funny.
This wasn't done this way, Katie.
Meaning, but Michael Mann, Edswick, and now Terrence.
It's funny.
The three directors that have spoken to me the most so far, they all have written their own films.
That I didn't think of that when I chose them as my, okay, I'm going to do this one first, this one next.
It just so happens like, oh, they create their own work.
Or most of the time.
Michael Mann wrote all of his screenplays, but he would have, he takes it from a lot of sources, like some true story stuff, books.
He would adapt the books.
Edswick, same thing.
Adaption, stuff like that.
But Terrence is probably the most hands-on, but Michael Mann probably second place, Ed was third place.
But they all write the films they direct to a large, complete, or certain degree.
It's probably not coincidence.
There's a reason it spoke to you.
They had such tight control over it.
And it sounds like he's quite a personality.
Visually, now we are talking about Terrence.
Were there any visual things that stood out to you?
Any aesthetics?
Cinematography?
Can I ask you one more music question?
Oh, yeah.
I forgot to play the piece.
So our listeners, what are you guys talking about?
Here's a simple reminder of what I'm talking about.
Let's cue it up here.
Let's cue it up here.
So, of course, every time I do these movies, I don't know if you've caught on, Katie, because I think you listen to all my shows.
I do.
I use the intro and outro music from the soundtrack of the film I'm covering.
I did that for the Michael Mann series.
People who are already listening to this episode, they're going to hear this piece anyways.
This will be my intro and outro music for this episode because it's so iconic.
Terrence Malick.
He did this again for The Thin Red Line.
He does this amazing.
He really nails a couple scenes in that movie where he uses these pieces of music that just accentuates a scene.
You take away the music, the scene is like, really, what's going on?
But he's so good at adding music.
The scene becomes so much more.
To me, the music was like the MVP of this movie.
Oh, wow.
Maybe cinematography was excellent, too.
Was there any other music that really stood out to you?
When they're dancing, they dance together to Love is Strange by Mickey and Sylvia.
Oh, wow.
Which was like a 50s.
I mean, this is set in the 50s, right?
59, I think, or something like that.
Because there's an iconic scene in Dirty Dancing.
How do you call your lover boy?
Come here, lover boy.
And if he doesn't answer, I simply say.
And then it goes into the Love is Strange song.
Picked up on it immediately because Dirty Dancing has probably the best soundtrack I have ever.
Like, it's the best soundtrack ever out there.
Then this movie, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's from.
The gypsy say, and I know why.
A falling blossom only touches lips that lie.
A blossom fell.
And very soon I saw you kissing someone new beneath the moon.
I thought you loved me.
Boy, if I could sing a song like that.
You said you loved me.
If I could sing a song like the way I feel right now.
We went together.
To dream forever.
The dream has ended.
For true love died.
The night of blossom fell.
And touched two lips that lie.
Like, all these movies that I love the music from was originally, you know, from some other era.
So, Badlands, Love is Strange.
And I think James Taylor has a song in here, too.
And then the theme.
So, the music, I was extremely impressed by the use of music in this.
And then, yes, to your point about the cinematography, it's gorgeous.
And also, like, about Terrence, of course, is his writing.
I love his poetic writing.
Now, like I said, this is one of his more straightforward movies.
Because you actually have real dialogue between characters.
And you're like, Ryan, what are you talking about?
You'll see.
I see the movies go on.
Okay.
You'll see what I'm talking about.
And now, favorite line has that, too.
But he's a poet.
And I think if people recognize that he's just a modern-day Shakespeare.
And if you are okay with the idea that he just does poetry on film, you're behind it or you're not.
I love it.
Poetic language that he uses.
He's not a rhyming poet, if that makes sense.
But he's a romantic at heart, I think.
I really liked the use of narration.
A way to explain to us what's going on in a quick, like, for example, at the end.
The very end, what actually happens is just via narration.
But you see it, though.
No, I meant in your mind.
Oh, I see.
It's such a good film.
And the characters are so established.
And the acting is so well done.
And everything's so, like, when you read a book.
I felt like I was reading a book.
It was told to me.
And I saw everything play out in my head.
I was making up even scenes with Martin's character, talking to the guards, all this stuff.
Like, I saw it in my head play out like a whole, like, miniseries in a quick microsecond.
Kit and I were taken back to South Dakota.
They kept him in solitary, so he didn't have a chance to get acquainted with the other inmates, though he was sure they'd like him, especially the murderers.
Myself, I got off with probation and a lot of nasty looks.
Later, I married the son of the lawyer who defended me.
Kit went to sleep in the courtroom while his confession was being read, and he was sentenced to die in the electric chair.
On a warm spring night, six months later, after donating his body to science, he did.
It was so well established of what his character went through.
So, yeah, speaking about the poetry, some of the narration delved into it.
We got a hint of what was to come.
Interesting to see the use of poetry and poetic language he uses with a sissy spacex narration that he later goes full bloom in some later films.
And some people like it, some people don't.
And when she was talking about her future husband, because she even knew, well, this is her talking about the past, so she knows she doesn't marry this guy.
So she's talking about, though, you know, her husband-to-be, and she's like.
One day, while taking a look at some vistas in Dad's stereopticon, it hit me that I was just this little girl, born in Texas, whose father was a sign painter, who had only just so many years to live.
It sent a chill down my spine, and I thought, where would I be this very moment if Kit had never met me or killed anybody?
This very moment, if my mom had never met my dad, is she to never died?
And what's the man I'll marry going to look like?
What's he doing right this minute?
Is he thinking about me now by some coincidence, even though he doesn't know me?
Does it show on his face?
I just like how she expresses, like, you know, does he see my face?
Is he thinking of me as I'm thinking of him?
What's the image that my future husband has as me?
I love that whole dialogue of her thinking about her husband-to-be.
He doesn't know that he's going to marry her, and she doesn't know that he's, but they're both living the life right now, but they haven't met yet.
It was such a great poetic explanation of a future husband.
There was, like, an overarching theme of sadness with animals.
There was a deliberate choice to show either cruelty to animals or just dead animals or...
So I think Terence is religious.
I think he is a lover of nature.
He actually did a documentary, which I haven't asked anyone to join me yet, but he actually does a documentary that I might have to review.
He must be a Christian of some sort or faith or something because he believes in creation.
I think he's a creationist.
He definitely values life, believe it or not, and animal life.
And I know this is the 70s, and some of the scenes are a little bit tough to watch.
The sadness might be that animals are sort of the...
They are the victims of human behavior.
I think he's showing the same way where he's cruel to humans.
Humans are sort of indifferent to animals.
I think there's a message there, the idea.
I know there's one scene where he steps on a cow, and I'm like...
The character Kit steps on a cow, and I couldn't tell if the cow was actually dead in real life.
And he kicks them, and he kicks when he's feeding them, too.
He kicks one of them in the head.
There's a dead dog by the trash heap at the beginning.
No, I think it might have been sleeping and or a real dead.
I don't know.
I don't know.
So I'm not making excuses, but the 70s were a different time of filming.
They didn't have what animal...
I think it came in around this.
The 70s was a Wild West of filmmaking, and animal...
What do you call it?
Not PETA per se.
The protections that are in movies.
They came in.
I think the 70s triggered that formation.
The opening is her with her big dog.
And I was like, oh, she's got this big dog.
And I see a fish bowl also.
And I'm like, that is a huge fish in a tiny-ass bowl.
Parts of it were to show us that both of these people are a little effed up in the head because she...
And she says, I can't talk about those kinds of things with anyone else.
She kills her fish in a horrifying way.
Also, it looked like a shark.
Didn't that fish look like a shark?
I don't know.
Is that a catfish?
Maybe?
Oh, maybe.
I don't know.
It was a weird-looking fish.
I think they have those big catfish.
Maybe.
But it was a huge fish.
Yeah.
And she said he got sick.
And so she just takes him in a horrifying manner, suffocated this fish to death.
Yeah.
I like to think they picked it up and put in water after her, but I'm not sure.
What we're shown, she just killed her.
Yeah.
We're shown it.
I mean, we're shown a lot.
It had to have been purposeful.
Oh, yeah.
We're shown a lot of it.
Like, they're both a little screwed up with how they treat animals.
Like, she both loves them and is abusive towards them.
It's weird.
She's not all there in her own way.
I mean, Kit, her boyfriend, kills her dad right in front of her.
And she's almost like, is he okay?
How about off Izzy?
I can look and see.
We better call the doctor.
This loss I had happened.
Part I saw.
Well, I don't think that works.
She's a little bit of a space cadet.
Sissy Spacek.
She's a little bit of a space cadet in that sense.
Like, it's innocence personified in this almost, like, alien way.
This girl is almost oblivious to the loss of life.
And she finally, at the end, like I said, she says, I don't want to run with you anymore.
I kind of want to stop doing this.
But, in fact, well, we're going to get actually now we're kind of getting to the plot a little bit.
Let's let's remind our listeners and ourselves that this, yeah, Bonnie Clyde ish, which were real characters.
But this movie was not based on Bonnie and Clyde.
It was actually based on two real life boyfriend, girlfriend murderers.
Oh, two separate cases.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, like a real couple.
A 19-year-old.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And a 14-year-old girl.
Did you catch that?
I did.
Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate.
And I didn't know this until my research again for this podcast.
There's a Paramount Plus series on these guys.
I got to watch it now on these real killers.
I feel like I have at least heard a podcast about it because I'm really into true crime.
But, yeah, I did see that.
But then what was interesting is at the end credits, I always let them all pass.
Like, I go through the whole credits.
It did say at the very end, this is a piece of fiction and it's not based on real people.
No, it's not.
It's a catalyst.
And but Terrence, well, yeah, it's all.
But Terrence directly based this film on this boyfriend, girlfriend.
Weren't Bonnie and Clyde.
They were somehow worse.
In 1958, a 19-year-old with a chip on his shoulder and a shotgun in his hand took his 14-year-old girlfriend on a murder spree through Nebraska.
And somehow people still argue whether she was a victim or just as dangerous as he was.
Charles Starkweather wanted to be James Dean.
What he ended up becoming was a leather-jacketed nightmare.
Broke, angry, and dumped by Carol Ann, he snapped.
She came home one day and found her family gone.
Charles said they were fine.
They weren't fine.
They were already in the backyard, not alive.
And then, like it was the most normal thing in the world, the two of them hit the road together.
They killed strangers, friends, even a good Samaritan who tried to help them get their car unstuck.
They left a trail of bodies and fear from Lincoln to Wyoming all in under two weeks.
When it finally ended, Charles blamed Carol.
Carol blamed fear.
But here's the part that people still debate.
Was she a hostage or an accomplice?
One of them ended up executed.
The other got parole.
And depending on who you ask, justice either showed up late or missed the point entirely.
Okay.
So, talk about bang on.
This is Badlands.
Bang on, indeed.
Well, so that story, it's interesting.
I'm just hearing about them going through Nebraska.
It always like hits a button in my brain because I'm originally from there.
I felt like her reactions and what Holly or this Fugate woman.
Right.
She's so matter of fact with her reactions in so many varying points.
I think she's a sociopath.
She might be.
Yeah.
You can almost say she's narcissistic too because she does look out for herself at the very end.
She turns herself over to police and almost like turns state evidence.
But she goes, oh, I think she says in the film, if I remember correctly, she was afraid.
She says that.
But I think she did that to protect herself.
Because remember at the very end of the film when Kit is in handcuffs and they're being flown to wherever.
Kit asks the guard at the very end, hey, do you think they're going to treat me better because I'm a pretty charismatic guy type thing?
You know, are they going to go easy on me because I'm a fun guy to be around type thing?
Sir, where'd you eat that hat?
State.
Boy, I'd like to buy me one of them.
You're quite an individual, Kit.
Think I'll take that into consideration?
You see Holly, who's also in handcuffs, we see her look at him and she does a smile smirk.
Like, she knows, like, it's almost like,
I don't know what she thinks will happen to her, but I think she kind of knows I didn't fire any.
She didn't fire any shots.
She didn't bury any body, so to speak.
So her argument, like I was a hostage to, it's very easy, especially back then to say, hey, he's a man with a gun.
What am I supposed to do?
I felt afraid for my life.
I could never get away from him.
But she gives him kind of a knowing smirk smile because she knows this guy is who he is.
I think she kind of likes it.
When he even says to her, or at one point I feel like he says, I'll make sure, you know, none of this comes down on you or something along those lines.
So I think she kind of knows.
She does like it.
She knows that he's not a forever person for her.
No, she, yeah.
She's like, yeah, this is, yeah.
This is a lot of life in whatever month or whatever it was.
Okay.
Sissy Spacek, what's your fandom, if any, of hers?
I mean, how many of your films have you seen?
What did you think of her in this film?
She's playing a 15-year-old.
She's 22.
Okay.
I thought like 23 or something or whatever.
A young adult, which is good because it is just interesting.
I know it was a different time, but he's 20.
The characters are 25 and 15.
That's right.
Well, that's the point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Yeah.
But that's why the father disapproved of it, not just because of the age gap, because the
father knew this guy's bad news.
You could tell.
I don't think he gave a shit about the age gap.
It was sort of, if he had been of a certain class, I think he would have been fine with
it.
It was that he's no good.
He's from the wrong side of the tracks.
I have a theory, too.
And I know it wasn't really shown in the film.
I hope I'm not overthinking.
That's something kind of untowards.
But was he abusive to her?
Maybe that's why she didn't care about him being dead.
He's like, I don't want you around my girl type thing.
I wonder if I got this creepiness from him and the fact that she was blase about his death.
I wonder.
That's interesting.
I didn't get that, but that would make her more human and being blase about his death.
But she's blase about everyone's death.
He shoots one of his friends, but he doesn't die right away.
And so they're like, hang out with him until he died.
You know, hang out.
And another time someone asks, I think it was the couple, maybe when the couple comes, one of them says, is he upset in reference to Kit?
And she says, didn't say anything to me about it.
Like, she knows he's going to kill these people.
I don't, it's really strange.
Yeah.
I think the girl, the girl in that scene too says, kind of like, what's going to happen to us?
And she goes, I don't know.
You have to ask Kit.
She doesn't care.
These lots of people are dying in her presence and she's just like, oh, well, you know.
Yeah.
She doesn't show, to the audience, she doesn't show any fear.
She might have used that for her defense in court that we never see.
Right, right.
But to the audience, we're seeing someone who's, in fact, I think it even states that it became mundane and boring to a degree.
Crazy romance, it gets boring or kind of mundane.
I think she was using him.
I think she's more villain than him, to be honest with you.
That's a terrible woman, I tell you.
I know.
I know, but so Sissy Spacek, I'm not super familiar with her.
Obviously, she's famous for Carrie and I've seen Carrie.
Yeah, I've seen Carrie.
What was that series not long ago that she was in that was really good?
Bloodline, the Rayburn family.
Oh, she was in that one.
Did you see that?
You know, I heard it's good though.
Matriarch of it.
I mean, she's a famous actress, but I haven't really seen her in a lot.
Like I said, Carrie, that Bloodline series.
She has a very unique look to her.
I don't even know how to say it.
It's a little off-putting to me.
Yeah, I love it.
I know that sounds terrible.
I see.
That's the thing.
It's like predators, they can spot victims.
And again, I think that's why she might have been a victim with the dad.
So not to say she's not all the things you're saying, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I think she was being abused.
Because often abused people, it's cliche, I know, but it's cliche for a reason, will attach themselves to other abusive people or other crazy.
So the fact that Kit seems to spot her the way a predator does in the wild.
He was literally in the wild.
I think that might have been the metaphor, too, that Terrence was going for.
He's just walking around in the wild.
He wasn't hunting, necessarily, for.
He just sees her twirling the baton.
And he's like, oh, you're cute.
Want to go for a walk?
And gets her right away.
Hi, I'm Kit.
I'm not keeping you from anything important, am I?
No.
Just thought I'd come over and say hello to you.
I'll try anything once.
What's your name?
I said mine.
Holly.
Well, listen, Holly.
You, uh, I don't know, want to take a walk with me?
What for?
Oh, I got some stuff to say.
Guess I'm kind of lucky that way.
Most people don't have anything on their minds, do they?
And maybe she knew he was bad news and that there would be a confrontation between him and his dad.
And she might have known that this confrontation would end.
Maybe she used Kit to get rid of the dad.
The dad literally kills her dog as punishment for seeing Kit.
Yes, because he's extremely jealous.
I think he sees himself and Kit.
Or he has feelings for his daughter that he can't or hasn't shown, but he wants to.
I know I'm going down to it.
But I'm trying to figure out why the reactions were the way that were.
You know, I think she's the same path.
I mean, that is possible.
The dad's reactions.
Like, killing a family dog because this James Dean good-looking guy is dating your daughter.
Like, I think it's jealousy overload a little bit.
He's got a 15-year-old daughter and this guy is not of a certain class.
They even say he literally, there's a scene where he says, or maybe she says, it is stated the reason that she's not supposed to be with him.
And it's because he's...
Well, I know what my dad's going to say.
What?
Can I be honest?
Sure.
Well, that I shouldn't be seen with anybody collects garbage.
He'll say that?
Yeah.
Now, what's he know about garbage, huh?
Nothing.
There you go.
I mean, there's nothing he wants to know.
I gotta run.
A low life, so to speak.
Maybe he's just very protective.
And of that time in, you know, really highly religious families, it can be that way.
Like, it can, the punishments are so severe.
Like, it's, like, effed up.
It's taken to such a point of, you know what I mean?
Like, it's so conservative that it's...
I'm just trying to figure out the explosive rage of jealousy.
But maybe it's protective.
Maybe it's not.
It's never stated.
I'm just trying to make sense of her blase.
Because when he killed the dad in the house, I was expecting some sort of, obviously, a freak-out session by the daughter.
Like, oh my god, my dad's been shot in front of me.
And he's bleeding on the floor.
Is he okay?
I think that was, like, purposeful to show us.
Like, who she is.
Like, she's into it.
That's what I mean.
It was great.
It was like, oh, that's not what I was expecting.
Which is what makes the film amazing.
It's like, that's not where I thought we were going with this.
It's, okay, I guess we're just going to go for a car ride now.
Okay, so Sissy Spacek, though.
I'm like you.
What are your thoughts?
Well, I don't watch movies because she's in it.
But when I see a movie that she's in it, I think she's good.
I still have to see The Coal Miner's Daughter.
I know it's one of her big ones.
She's very good.
I thought she was perfectly cast.
As a young-looking 22-year-old, I had to look up her age.
Because I was like, is she 16, 17?
But no, she's 22.
So she's got that baby girl face.
And she played the Mousy Innocent so well.
This is only her, really her first film.
I mean, she did a film in 72 called Prime Cut.
I don't even know where she was in that.
It had Gene Hackman in it.
But I don't even know where she was in the, it was her film debut.
Like where she was in the cast listing.
So the fact that she's second lead in this film.
In fact, she was the first one cast in this film.
I saw that.
Yeah, that's interesting.
She does exude.
And part of it is she's got such specific features.
Yeah, it's weird.
That it's like, it portrays innocence.
But she's not, like she wouldn't, she's not what you would call like a classic beauty.
She's got a certain look to her that's just different.
This is funny.
Her next film was called Ginger in the Morning.
So they literally ran with her hair color.
I guess she hit it big with this film.
So she gets a starring role in her next film, Ginger in the Morning.
She plays a hitchhiker named Ginger.
That's hilarious.
I thought she was fantastic.
And her character, Holly, was perfectly done.
Like, I don't know, I actually didn't know if she won any awards for this film.
I suspect it was nominated.
It does look like the movie itself was nominated for a BAFTA.
No, like there were some lesser known awards, like Martin winners for the San Sebastian International Film Festival, but not like Oscars or anything like that.
Interesting.
Kind of flew a little bit on the radar maybe at the time, but Sissy herself said, and Martin has something else to say about that.
We'll get to him.
But Sissy said that Terrence changed her whole view of acting, like shaped her how to be an actress for the rest of her life because of this film.
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
It really is.
Credit given to Terrence.
It kind of gives you an idea when we get to Thin Red Line.
When you see the Thin Red Line, I hope you watch it, Katie, for the show when you hear the review.
Well, I have seen it.
It's one of those that I did probably see it, but it must not have made an impression on me.
Also, it was probably, did it come out in the early 90s?
I was probably like 10.
I think it was 97, 98.
Same year Private Ryan came out.
Okay.
I was in high school.
Oh, okay.
So you're a young teenage girl.
You're not really getting, you're not getting things, Katie.
I'm not.
I'm not.
You're not understanding these male-driven directing.
I also recommend you, but it's only two films you watch, Days of Heaven, when we get to that review, when you listen to it.
Because then watch Thin Red Line, what I'm getting at is it makes sense as to why he's in hiding for 20 years.
He comes out, because when you see the cast listening for Thin Red Line, I'm like, what the freak?
Because everybody wants to be part of it, even if they get two lines.
Oh, wow.
And then when he gets one line in that film to, that's why everybody wanted to be in that film because it's like, oh, it's Terrence Malick.
I got, I want my, it's like, he's like Terrence Malick.
He hasn't done a film since 74 or whatever it was.
So people were like clamoring to be a part of the cast.
Like everybody was working for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches because they wanted to be in that film with Terrence Malick.
That's the kind of, what do you call it?
The, um, the mystique that he has.
I was just going to say the, him going into, he's created like this.
He came out of the cave and said, I'm going to do a war movie.
And everyone's like, can I be in it?
Can I, you have like Woody Harrelson's in it.
Sean Penn, one of his best roles ever.
Like, it's just, he's so cool in that film.
He's just so, Sean Penn is so cool.
Oh, I'm going to definitely have to rewatch it.
I love how he still has the Sean Penn haircut in World War II, but that's, you know, neither here nor there.
But he's got to look like Sean Penn still.
I'm geeking out about Thin Red Line already.
I know we're not there yet.
Okay.
Since he did great.
Now let's talk about the great Martin Sheen.
How cool is Martin in this film?
How cool is he?
Well, I literally like a note that I wrote was a young Martin Sheen.
I mean, it's like, he could have been Emilio's twin brother.
I know.
There were scenes in it.
I was like, I had to rub my eyes.
I knew that was going to get you.
I know.
I love Emilio so much.
He's one of my favorite actors because of the Young Gun films.
I admit, like, I love him so much.
And there were scenes in this and there were certain, when Martin, I don't remember, I should have written the time codes.
I was just watching the film.
I hate kind of taking notes.
I just like to watch the film without like overthinking what I'm going to say for the podcast.
If that makes sense, I just try to watch the film as a watcher.
So it's a hard divide when you're like, some people like watch it twice too.
And I just, who has time for that?
I don't have time.
I'm so busy.
No.
There's a few moments when he, when he yells, he does a couple of yell moments when he raises his voice.
It sounded just like Emilio when he yells in Young Guns.
It's like, holy smoke.
DNA is strong in those two.
What is the matter with you?
Yeah.
Side note.
The two boys playing under the lamp was Charlie and Emilio.
I read that after I watched the movie.
So I didn't like catch it when I watched the movie.
Is that funny?
Yeah.
I knew that was coming.
I did.
I don't know how I caught that because I usually don't read anything, but I've seen the film before.
So maybe I did a little bit because I've seen the film before.
So I didn't catch it the first time, but I did catch it.
I was looking for it.
Two little boys.
And speaking of another cameo.
Who's older?
Charlie.
Okay.
I say that with such an authority.
Now you're making me look.
Darn it.
I can always.
Terrence.
Were you going in the direction that Terrence has a cameo in this as well?
Is that where you were going?
Yeah.
And I knew about that.
He is funny.
I knew that he had a cameo in the film, but he is rarely filmed.
It's hard.
You go Google his picture.
He's, he is a recluse.
He doesn't have a lot of pictures of him out there.
It's a fairly, I mean, he has a lot, it's aligned.
He speaks for a fair amount of time in that scene that he's in.
Hi, uh, Mr. Scarver here?
Yeah.
The thing about him, he's down with the flu.
He's sick.
Really?
Yeah.
I invite you inside, except it's contagious.
Don't want to start an epidemic.
No, of course not.
Uh, it's only he called last night and asked if I come by.
Well, he didn't have it last night.
What's that?
Well, uh, I'd like to leave a message if that's okay.
Sure.
See, people are getting mad at me.
Uh, yeah, Katie.
Amelia's older by three years.
Duh.
Is he?
Is Amelia older?
Yeah.
He's 63 and Charlie's 60.
I think it's just cause Charlie's, um, more, more aged or whatnot.
He had a little bit of a rougher life.
Yeah.
A little bit of a rougher.
Uh, but yeah, so Martin looked great.
I, I like the whole Sheen family.
I love them all.
I, I, I, I enjoyed Charlie.
He's a great guy.
I guess he had, but to his credit, he's, um, he's sober eight years now, apparently.
Oh, really?
Eight years sober.
Yep.
Uh, that's what the documentary is about.
I've listened to him on the talk show circuit or pocket talk show podcast circuit.
And he's very humbled by life.
Yeah.
He's done all the proper things.
Ask for forgiveness.
He has good relations with his exes and stuff like that.
In that sense.
Like basically he was a substance abuser.
He wasn't a person abuser.
You know, he abused himself more than anyone else.
He's eight years sober and he's hoping to do a big drama movie again.
Like he wants to do, he wants to get back.
He wants to do a proper, what he used to do in the eighties and stuff.
He wants to do that before.
So Martin, I really don't think I've seen him a lot when he was younger.
I like him in grace and Frankie, you know, that show with what are their names?
Jane Fonda.
Jane Fonda.
Yeah.
He plays, he, and I think he plays Jane Fonda's ex-husband.
Oh, right.
And Lily Tomlin and Sam Waterston were married and now they're both divorced.
And then Sam and Martin are now a couple in grace and Frankie.
All four of those are excellent in that show.
So I do highly recommend it.
But otherwise I remember him from apocalypse.
Now I do really like Martin Sheen.
I haven't sought out.
Katie.
It's an age thing.
That's all it is.
And that's what I love about doing these older films is.
Well, that's what I love about going back to these old films because we're so narcissistic
sometimes in our own right in that, in our view.
Like, Oh, these are the best actors.
No, these are the ones, you know, you go back in time.
Like, Oh, Martin was a great actor in his youth.
It's just, it sucks that we have to get old.
So sometimes it's hard to get excited by an 80 year old actor.
Like some actors, like they always seem like they're older to you.
And Mark is that because yeah, he's, he's the father of two kids who are 63 now.
You know what I mean?
Of course he's old.
So he's always been old to us.
Right.
But when you go back in time, you're like, Oh, he was in some really good movies and apocalypse.
Now.
Yes, of course.
But that was, you know, six years later, but badlands.
He was amazing.
This film.
And I love how they, they really followed the course of the James Dean aesthetic.
He looks like James Dean with the haircut, the mannerisms, the way this, every scene Martin
was in was incredible.
He was the MVP.
I know the music it was, but I know, but Martin carried this film.
He was so unpredictable.
He was so good at being who he was that you almost, you almost, this is going to sound terrible.
You look forward to the next killing.
The weird rooting for the killer.
And it's, it's terrible.
He's killing innocent people, but he's so good at being charismatic within the film.
He's playing a charismatic killer that me as a viewer.
I'm like, yeah, you kill those people.
It's weird.
Yeah.
So you were, so what you're saying is when they go to the, the mansion, the rich people's
house, you assume they're going to, that he's going to kill those people, but he doesn't.
The tension is so good.
And that's what's so good about it.
Well, I shouldn't say I knew it.
That's, that's a cop out.
I didn't know.
I'd forgotten.
I couldn't remember, but I love all the little, little details of that scene too.
You know, the owner of the house and the maid is deaf of all things.
Like, and cause she even says, I didn't know she was deaf until later.
So I'm thinking, oh, he shoots a gun.
She doesn't hear it.
That's a great misdirect.
I thought that narration was to let us know a gunshot was coming, but it never came.
It's just an interesting detail to give to the audience.
It's like, oh, she's deaf.
That's going to claim to some sort of killing, but it never does.
Well, and given the history that we've seen of them thus far, you would assume.
So I kept waiting for, oh, when is he going to, he's going to kill them.
We needed supplies.
So we went to a rich man's house.
Kit figured it'd be safer and quicker than shopping in the downtown.
A maid came to the door.
Hi, I'm here checking the meter.
My tools are in here.
Oh, this is Holly.
She's from Texas.
Later, we found out she was deaf and we hadn't even known it.
Excuse me.
Hi.
Yes?
Is this your place?
Yes.
Sorry to barge in on you.
Anyone else here besides you, too?
No.
Good deal.
And so you're right.
It was a nice fake out.
And I also, the nice touch with this character is he's very polite.
But he's very, he's aware right away who he is.
Yeah.
Smart.
And there's probably the reason why he's rich and smart because he's smart.
Oh, I got to deal.
He's a, he's a, here's the thing.
This is the first person that Kit has dealt with that's upper class.
And I hate to say he's intelligent.
The other people have kind of, some of the people he's killed have been like, it's either they've come into their camp to attack them, the bounty hunters, which is legit.
Or there's these trailer park type personalities.
And it's kind of like easy fodder for Kit to get the upper hand on them.
But now he's dealing with somebody of a higher intelligence.
Except for the couple, there was no reason to kill the couple.
We don't know if they're dead or not.
He shoots into where they are.
To be fair, Katie, we don't know how big that cellar is or how deep it went.
When he fired those two shots into the cellar, I thought he was shooting to scare them so they wouldn't come out for a while.
Okay, come on, you two down.
I saw it.
Come on.
Hey.
You promised to stay down there for an hour.
Yeah?
You expect me to believe that?
Yeah.
I'm going to shut the door.
Think I got them?
I don't know.
Well, I'm not going down there and look.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
Because he was so blase about it.
He was like, boom, boom.
And they're like, wasn't a name shot.
He doesn't know where they are.
He just blindly shoots into the cellar.
He goes, do you think I got them?
So what?
You're led to believe both bullets hit one each.
What are the odds that one bullet hits one person kills the other?
Because he just shoots the same spot.
Boom, boom.
Because if he wanted to scare them, he could have shot up in the air or something.
There was intent there.
Like they even say, I don't, we left without knowing whether they were left without knowing.
That's what I like is I actually think he didn't hit them.
There's no yelling or screaming.
I think they were huddled.
I don't think they're dead.
Realistically, the chance of each bullet hitting one each killing them instantly.
Like in his head, he could have killed them.
Why is he afraid now to check?
Why is he even afraid to look?
But to your point about this like class thing, he acts differently with the rich guy.
He's extremely polite.
What do you think about this?
I'm, I'm, here's what I'm going to do.
I wrote down all the things I'm going to take that we're borrowing.
I'll, you know, pay back later.
Hi, what you doing?
Just thinking.
Yeah.
Good way to kill time.
Is she okay?
Yes.
Good.
Oh, uh, we're going to take the Cadillac for a while.
How'd that be?
Fine.
Uh, don't worry.
I won't let her drive.
Oh, and, uh, here, uh, here's a list of everything I borrowed.
Cars on there, too.
Okay, ma'am.
Let's go.
Out that way.
Go on.
Uh, including the Cadillac.
I, I think I saw that Cadillac around back.
Um, you think it'll be okay if I take that?
I, yeah, he's polite.
And I also love how the Martin character throughout the film.
Boy, there's so much in this film.
I know.
Again, see the film, folks.
Go see the film.
But I love, again, how this character Kit, he's always got something better on the horizon.
He's always going to do this.
He's going to do that.
He's like, he talks about the job.
He's picking up garbage at the beginning of the film.
And then he, he gets fired, but he tells his girlfriend, oh, I didn't get fired to quit.
I'm going on to better, better things type thing.
And then like this idea that he's going to, you know, give back money to this rich guy.
Like, really?
You know, all this sort of stuff.
It's, it's very, it's, it's very endearing in a weird way of him trying to be like, I'm a good person.
He also tells the trailer park guy that he's going to steal gas from later in the film.
He's like, well, I've killed people, but I don't think I should get a medal for it.
That's your truck, isn't it?
You didn't walk out here.
It's mine, all right.
Well, listen, I'm going to swap you my Cadillac.
Now, don't worry.
You getting a fair deal?
He'll ask anybody.
What's blue book value on this thing, Mildred?
Who are you?
Thanks, brother.
I believe I shoot people every now and then.
Not that I deserve a medal.
Kid!
Like, meaning I'm no hero.
So I thought, was he talking about the war or the people he's murdered?
But he just says, yeah, I've killed people, but I don't know if I should get a medal for it.
He was supposed to have been in the war.
That's interesting.
Oh, it could have just been an interesting way of saying, but I'm not proud of it.
Sure, those are the flash that gun when he's around.
Yeah, I'll get it.
It's like an accessory.
I had a hard time with this movie for one reason, because I got myself addicted to subtitles,
and I couldn't.
This movie did not have subtitles the way that I watched it.
Where'd you watch it?
It was some new streamer.
Like, I just type, you know, I just like type in the movie that I want to watch,
and it shows me all the places that I can watch it.
And it was one, it was free.
I didn't have to pay five bucks to watch it.
These old movies, you got to get subtitles.
There's some of the audio quality for their vocals.
But I didn't know.
I mean, there's no way to know that in advance.
There's just some little stuff like that.
I'm a caption.
I almost don't go to the movie because there's not captions.
I need them.
So this movie, watching this experience, I was like, I paused a few times and went back.
So I was like, what did he say?
There were several points that I didn't quite catch what people said.
And so I need subtitles.
This is the moral of the story.
I love the scene, too, when he's caught at the end and he's chained.
This is very much like the Billy the Kid scene, but Young Guns.
Billy the Kid is chained in Young Guns 2.
I know this sounds like, Ryan, what are you talking about?
But if you know the film, you know what I'm talking about.
So Young Guns 2, Billy the Kid, played by Emilio, is chained.
And he's very charismatic.
And he's goofy and fun.
And he endears the guards to him.
Well, obviously, Emilio knows this movie.
So he, again, borrowed from his dad.
And his dad did the same thing with this film.
He's chained and he's talking.
And I love the fact that we're seeing Martin's character, Kit, standing on the plane.
And the audio is horrible.
But it's done on purpose in that you hear the guards, the National Guard people, Army guys,
because he's a Bonnie Clyde character.
So he's popular.
He's infamous, right?
But he's caught.
He's in chains.
And he's handing out his comb.
He knows he's going to jail.
Who wants my comb?
Who wants my light?
Like, who wants the gun that shot Jesse James?
That's the whole idea.
It's like everybody wants a piece of the killer.
Right.
It's great.
Perfect.
I would like you want to give me Charles Manson's lighter.
I'll take it.
You know, that's that's interesting.
This is Charles Manson's lighter.
So he's tossed out his comb is lighter.
But you hear the questions by the crowd.
It's off camera.
It's a weird.
I can barely hear what they're saying because it's like we're in the audio point of view of Kit, but we're in the visual point of view of the guardsmen.
And I thought it was an interesting contrast of just I don't think it was actually scripted scripted because Terrence does this too.
He'll do a lot of film role, not necessarily improv per se, because like I said, this is one of the, but I think later films.
Yes.
Definitely.
The narrations are all scripted stuff, but he does a lot of special later films with a bigger budget.
Like when you have a smaller budget, maybe that's why it's a tighter script because he goes, I can't waste film.
I can't, I can't burn film.
He will film people, just do things.
And then that's part of, and then almost create the script around that too.
So with them fishing, the camping, I wonder how much of that was just, okay, guys, you're pretend you're in the woods and hold each other and all that kind of.
Anyway, I say all that because here with that, the guardsmen stuff, I was, I was, I wonder if they just ask the guy questions.
Like, I don't know if those questions are scripted.
It's like, just what would you ask a killer?
Would you hear them or read them?
Yeah, they were read.
They're read.
I read the subtitles, what they're asking.
Did it make a difference to the story at all?
Like, what were you doing?
Like asking him questions about his time on the run?
Felt real.
And that's what made it so cool.
If it felt like non, I think they were non-actors.
They might've been real guardsmen.
You know, it's probably easier to say, Hey, can we film on your military base or whatever?
And you guys can be in the film, but we don't pay you.
You know, you're not, you're not a part of say or whatever.
You can throw questions at Martin that you would ask a killer on the run.
Yeah.
They were celebrities.
Like the whole country, they say she narrates.
The whole country was after us.
You know, the whole country was out looking for us for who knew where Kit would strike next.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
The whole country was out looking for us.
to stand watch at the Federal Reserve Bank in Tulsa.
When word got out that Kip meant to rob it.
It was like the Russians had invaded.
The bounty hunters.
And so then when they were caught.
And he's this James Dean figure.
Yeah, everybody wants a piece of him.
And he is charming.
And so everybody, you know, he's joking around with them.
They are loose with him.
With his handcuffs and stuff.
Like they're not worried that he's going to hurt them.
Must have had this about 10 years.
Look at there.
Who's going to get it?
Give me that something.
There you go.
Where are you from?
South Dakota.
Where are you from?
Here.
Want to call?
Tony James from South Dakota.
Yeah, I know.
She got out there too.
Hey, Ken.
Who's your favorite name?
Eddie Fisher.
Who's yours?
Eddie Fisher.
Damn.
You want a pen?
How old are you?
Don't you read the papers?
You're playing Martin?
No, I haven't.
Yeah.
Okay.
So there you go.
Yeah, I missed a lot of that.
But I thought Martin's acting.
I think those were real kind of smiles.
I think that was.
It felt ad libbed a little bit.
Like, I don't know.
It was like.
Yeah, you're probably right.
I wouldn't buy that.
Or he's just that good of an actor.
I mean, he's a good actor, but he's playing his character still.
But I think it was kind of like they're just chucking questions at him.
Where are you from?
That one reminded me.
I had kind of now that, you know, since I'm not watching it right now.
Right.
Him saying they ask him where he's from, South Dakota.
So Martin is playing kit very well.
And I love the accent.
That is a Southern accent.
Sure.
Why do you think they did that?
Or was we meant to believe these from South Dakota and grew up in Texas.
And that's why he just argued that maybe he was born there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know accents in the States enough to see that.
But yeah.
Oh, do you know when I'm just looking to say sissy space in this video shot here.
She actually knows how to twirl the baton or whatever that is.
That's why they threw it in.
She just knows how to do it.
Might as well do it.
A majorette.
Speaking of sissy, she met her future husband on this episode.
And they've been married since.
So she was very young then.
22.
Yeah.
He was John Frisk.
I think his name.
And he's been a collaborator with Terrence's whole career and others.
He's done tons of stuff.
And he's still, he's a cinematographer.
They've done eight movies together.
Sissy and him.
And they've been married since then.
So they've got a Hollywood.
Good for her.
She's no scandals.
Was, you know, I like that.
He has to be pretty old then.
But yeah, I like a long Hollywood.
They have two daughters together.
Schuller and Madison.
I have a daughter named Madison.
He's 79.
And.
Okay.
That's not basic is 75.
Okay.
Okay.
So he was 26.
They're age appropriate.
They're age appropriate.
And they met on set and they've been together.
So that's, that's wonderful.
They've been together since.
Finishing my thought about particularly that scene where Martin as Kit, he's so charming.
And he's also so attractive.
He is so good looking.
Martin.
Yes.
Yes.
No, he's, he's great.
He's a movie star.
I mean, like we, we see the old Martin and we forget that he was a movie star in the
seventies.
He was a good looking guy, charismatic.
And Martin said himself to this day, this is the best screenplay he's ever done.
Mm-hmm.
There were a few things then.
And this is to Terrence's credit as the writer, as the director that were shown a few things.
And you, as an audience, we wonder what misdirect you.
That's, I think maybe what it is.
There was a few times where that happens.
One is where he kind of finally decides after the car chase with the sheriff while he's alone
after Holly had already turned herself over and he's still on the run and he stops the car almost
on purpose.
Like he decides he's going to give up.
Well, that's what she says in the narration.
He goes,
Many times I've wondered what was going through Kit's head before they got him and why he
didn't make a run for it while he still had the chance.
Did he figure they'd just catch him the next day?
Was it despair?
He claimed to have in a flat tire, but the way he carried on about it, I imagine this is
false.
He says he was caught, but he gave himself over.
Yeah.
He shoots the tire himself.
Well, so in before the police, cause they get tipped over and somehow it gets righted,
which that wouldn't happen in real life.
But, uh, I think they push the car back and chase to resume the chase is what we don't
see it, but we have to assume he just got out of the car, pushed it back.
And then they started chasing after him because they caught up to him cause he shoots the star.
Yeah.
I just, while they're doing that and he knows they're going to catch up with him or we assume
he starts rounding up a bunch of rocks.
Maybe it was just me, but I think I thought as an audience, he's going to use that as
like a weapon.
Now, what do you think he builds?
What do you think it is?
Well, he says he builds a little mound.
He stacks up rocks as a marker.
This is where they catch Kit Carruthers.
Like he knows that this is, he knows this is going to be a land.
Like he's purposely now trying to make him build himself up.
Now at this point, I thought he was going to have a shootout.
I thought he was going to kill the cops or something, maybe take their car.
But now he starts gathering rocks.
Yeah.
So I thought he was going to use them.
You know, he only had so many bullets.
See, now we're wondering, I think he sees himself as some sort of like hero with the public.
Like he's a Bonnie and Clyde type.
So he's like, totally does.
They know.
She even says the whole country's after us.
They know he knows he's famous.
Again, it reminds me of young guns.
When Bill, the kid tells Pat Garrett, you know, you'll never be Pat Garrett.
You'll just be the man that shot Bill, the kid.
So he's doing this.
And Martin's like, you guys won't be anyone, but you'll be the guys that caught me.
You're not going to be anyone else, but you'll be the guys that caught me.
Here's where you caught him.
I love how he gets his.
He's so good.
Hold it right there.
I could have held off an army if I could have got behind a boulder up the mountain.
So that's that false.
As long as my ammo held out.
See, that's the, that's what I love about this character.
That, that big talk of like, you know, I could have held you guys.
I could have held off an army.
If I was behind a boulder, I could have held off an army.
And they're like, oh yeah.
He goes, well, as long as I had enough ammo, I could.
I could the idea that he's indestructible.
He can't be caught.
He can't be.
But this is a, I think what the reason why he gives himself over, I think he doesn't believe
his own.
He is going to get caught.
He knows it's a matter of time.
So I think he's turning himself over on his terms.
He doesn't want to be cornered like an animal.
That's why he says right away.
Well, I could have taken care of you forever, but you know, here I am anyways.
Let's let's forgo the whole battle.
But is that weird?
Like he says he could have held him off.
I had enough ammo, but you know, I don't.
So here I am.
Yeah, you're right.
It's on his own terms.
And he, he makes a marker for it for historic purposes.
How dare's where you called me.
See?
Yeah.
So anyways, yeah, that's a great scene.
A great moment.
I thought those cops are going to be more, they were mean to him.
I mean, they threw his hat out the window and stuff, but they end up again, he ended up
kind of in a hundred percent.
No, they're like nice to him.
Yeah.
They're in the presence of a famous person.
You know, these are cops and BFE.
You know, where are they in middle of nowhere, Montana?
Yeah.
They're not used to this type of celebrity and they know that's going to kind of make them
famous.
And at the other point, they kind of bury a little time capsule.
Afterwards, he took and buried some of our things in a bucket.
He said that nobody else would know where we put them and that we'd come back someday,
maybe.
And they'd still be sitting here just the same, but we'd be different.
And if we never got back, well, somebody might dig them up a thousand years from now.
And wouldn't they wonder?
Like maybe we'll come back someday or, you know, maybe someone will find this.
And again, even at that point, they knew that they were famous.
Like it'll be a big deal when someone finds this.
Okay.
Movie one.
I'm excited for my Terrence Malick journey.
I'm also nervous.
I know his later films divided audiences and I'm excited to talk about that with a different
co-host and just because yeah, he did bang, bang, bang.
Bang, bang.
Even of course, even not even, but thin red line, you know, incredible film.
One of my favorite films of all time.
Spoiler.
It'll be fun to reinvestigate the films I've seen after that one.
Two of them.
I have seen.
I've seen new world and tree of life and not really spoiler.
I really enjoyed those films too, but some of his later films after that, I haven't seen
yet.
And that's shame on me to a degree.
And the shame on me for kind of like reading the bylines or headlines of people being divisive
on it.
I need to have my own opinion.
That's why I'm doing this series.
Cause when I watch the films, I can give my opinion cause it's the only one that matters.
It's the only one that matters to me to make a opinion for myself.
Not just say, Oh, I didn't like it because of, okay, that's fine.
But I want to see why I don't like it.
Yeah.
So Katie, tell people where they can find you.
I host a show called retro made where we take a look back at the eighties and nineties movies
that we all grew up loving.
And, um, some of the pop culture that influenced that time.
And I am doing, uh, John Hughes this season.
And, um, that can also be found on the director's chair network along with this.
So if you're listening on the director's chair network, which you are here, come on over to
Retromade and check out some of the other stuff.
First season, um, was Patrick Swayze and Kurt Russell, the ultimate everman.
It was fun.
Lots of fun.
I love doing those, but also one quick more question about this movie before we sign off.
Yes.
Part at which kit again, because I didn't have subtitles, I couldn't quite hear.
He, he says to her at one of the times where they're stopped.
I think it was when, um, we're there at that gas trailer part.
Okay.
He says, well, we'll something about, will you meet me at such and such on new year's day in 1964,
which is apparently five years from now.
You want a second chance and listen, 12 noon, the grand coolie dam, new year's day, 1964.
You meet me there.
No, you got that.
So what was that about?
I think I missed something.
This is the scene where she sees her way out.
The helicopters about the land.
I'm taking myself over no more running.
Keep in mind.
She's 15, you know, just like any, not just girl, but any 15 year old person, the flight of fancy.
It's run its course.
Like I'm going to run away.
Mom and dad.
But after night three with no food and shelter, you come crawling back.
She's going to, she wants to come crawling back to her own.
Like I can't live my life like that.
I'm a 15 year old girl.
What am I doing?
This is ridiculous.
I, you know, I can't, I can't keep doing this.
So here we are.
Well, I had a feeling today was going to be the day.
Everything's in his control.
That's the thing is, Oh yeah.
I knew today was going to be the day that we get caught or, or that the police catch up to us.
Did you, but he's never surprised.
So to speak, he's always in control, but he's not in control.
That's his bravado a little bit.
You know, ironically, he has low self-esteem.
I think he's thought better of his life than it turned out to be.
He's not going to take his pretty ride either.
Come on.
Let's make it rough.
The car.
I don't want to.
Have you got a better idea?
I just don't want to go.
What?
He's good to her in that sense.
Like he doesn't force her or yell at her or say, you're coming with me, whether you like it or not.
He's like, he sees in her face, like at this moment right now, but he also knows I got to get out of here though.
He also says survival.
Like, okay, well I can't have you kicking and screaming, but I got to go.
So then this is where he comes back.
What is wrong with you?
He looks good in jeans too.
Oh, he looks great.
He looks great.
What is the matter with you?
I don't know what to make people like you.
I really don't.
So he says, I don't know what to make of people like you.
What do you mean by that?
He's been with this girl for what?
Two, three, four weeks, whatever, whatever, a short amount of time, but it's been a very passionate.
They're making love under the stars or camp in the wilderness.
She's on the run with him with the kill people.
Then he says, I don't know what to make of people like you.
Yeah.
I think that could be taken a lot of ways.
I sort of wonder again, because I'm on the side of the fence where I think she's the sociopath and she's just so easily able to so calmly.
So matter of fact, we just say I'm done.
And she's not saying anything.
He's going on.
He's kicking dirt, kicking tires.
He's right.
Again, why are you not passionate?
Why?
I can't understand why she is so like, oh, you know, oh, well.
You want a second chance and listen.
12 noon in the Grand Coulee Dam, New Year's Day, 1964.
You meet me there.
You got that?
What year is this?
And I think it is, but I didn't know that when I was watching.
Oh, I knew his fifties, but I was sort of like the why?
64.
Why not the next New Year?
You know what I mean?
Why smoke?
He's a fugitive.
Maybe he figures five years get his life in order.
Cause he talked about going up to Canada, maybe to work and stuff like that.
Maybe kind of blow smoke will blow over.
They'll forget about me.
I think it's just an arbitrary time, but that time will pass where the smoke will clear and
she'll be legal.
She'll be 20.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
Yeah.
I mean, there's, I mean, we could play the whole movie and I would love to play the
whole movie.
Folks see this movie.
Go check out Katie on the retro made podcast.
This is a great start.
I mean, I could have spent the whole hour and a half just reading Wikipedia, all that stuff
on Terrence and the film in general, but this is just a discussion of what we thought of the
film.
How did it make us feel?
I loved it.
Uh, I'm already going to have a hard time.
I already know with my top three picks when I do my ranking in at the end of this, uh,
this is a great film.
Watch this film as well.
Not just the Tarek smells directing.
I just love these old seventies movies.
Uh, and I love the aesthetics, the gorilla like filming.
I love the acting.
I love the rawness.
I love just boy.
This was a time man where you're just art and acting and they took a serious.
I don't know.
I'm a big fan of seven.
Like just over time.
And now as an, a mature woman, I really do love seventies movies.
I know my podcast is about eighties and nineties.
Just that's like the nostalgia hit, but I think the quality, there was such a quality of seventies
films and it is really, really quality.
Perhaps for me is the pacing at, so I'm curious to see how the pacing is in some of his other movies.
Oh boy.
And that's just a sign of the times.
Like we're just so.
And I, when I saw it was an hour and a half, I was like, Oh, this is a short Malik film.
This is what I mean.
This is one of his tightest films.
I just love that.
We see what we see and how we see it.
And I'm very curious how I will feel about his future films.
Cause he says himself, like he had to repent of his ways a little bit.
And maybe he missed the mark a little bit.
He says it himself later.
It's a retrospective feeling that he might've missed the mark in a couple of his films, but
they have some big actors in it coming up like Christian Bale and Affleck and.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
There's some big names in this future film.
So.
Did he mean the film itself or how he, cause it sounds like he was kind of mercurial a little
bit.
Did he mean his behavior behind.
No, no, no.
I think the filmmaking process, just that.
He, uh, was it cause he, he, when he did the war film, his latest film that's available
right now, which I hit in life.
And he said about that film that it was back to his little bit tighter story making.
Oh, okay.
So he wasn't, he's not self-aware about his behavior.
Cause he sounds like an interesting, like, you know, I don't think he's one of those.
I don't think he's a jerk jerk.
He's just an artist who could be, look, directors are.
That's the nature of the control everything.
They're not control freaks, but they're the boss.
It's sort of a good director's their way, the highway.
They, the, I think it, it can rest on their shoulders for better, for worse.
If a film works or not.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, thanks everyone.
We'll see you on the next episode where we cover days of heaven.