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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.774)
let me turn off my notifications to you before we go. OK. Hello, welcome back to messy liberation in our series. Everything is political. Today we are joined by Mx. Dahlia Belle. And did I say that correctly, because I've never actually said MX out loud Mx Dahlia Belle. Excellent. Who is a comedian and joining us to talk about the politics of comedy. Very excited to have you here. Tain is not here at the moment, hoping she might join late, but.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (00:03.92)
No worries.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (00:13.669)
Yes. Perfectly done.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:28.462)
Otherwise, it'll just be me and that'll be OK. I found you or just I can't say I found you. I discovered you personally for like you came into my life, probably when you did for a lot of people in twenty twenty four when I saw Hannah Gadsby's gender agenda on Netflix. So that was where I was like, oh, my gosh, this person is hilarious. I'm going to go follow them on all the social media. And I had no clue who you were before that. I have a feeling that's the case. Like, like I have a feeling that changed.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (00:30.993)
No worry.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (00:45.595)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (00:57.371)
I just love people. Globally, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:59.308)
Yeah, it probably changed things for you a bit to have a platform like that. Tell me if you don't mind, I'm sure you've said it a thousand times, but I haven't heard it and I know other people have it. How did that even come about? I believe it started from a piece you wrote in The Guardian about Dave Chappelle. So is that how Hannah like you came onto her radar with their radar?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (01:13.809)
That is correct.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (01:19.069)
Yeah, that's good job. That's how I came onto Hannah's radar. Well, more specifically, that's how I got onto anyone's radar, I think. And then, well, that's only partially true too. Sorry, I'm babbling now. perfect. So I've been doing comedy for 12, 13 years now.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:37.282)
No, I just babbled, you're good.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (01:49.672)
But yeah, the Guardian piece definitely gave me more of a platform. So then when Hannah put out a tweet in, what would that have been? 2022, I wanna say, maybe early 2023, asking, hey, if I were to do a multi-comic special of all trans and gender non-conforming comics,
what comics would you like to see? And apparently I have a very enthusiastic fan base who then put me on Hannah's radar.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:26.296)
That's amazing. And the piece for people, I'll include a link in the show notes, was called Dear Dave Chappelle, Transgender Comedians Can Take a Joke But Why Are You So Unfunny? And it was in 2021. And there was a line that I particularly liked that five years later still feels incredibly resonant, which is, think we can all agree the bitter old men griping about progress are killing comedy. And I thought, yes.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (02:37.98)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (02:49.309)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (02:50.166)
Exactly. And sadly, five years later, doesn't not only does it feel like things haven't changed, it feels in many ways like they've gotten worse. So I and I forgot to ask our opening question because I just want to dive right in, which is when did you realize as somebody who's been doing comedy now for more than a decade, at what point did you realize, this world of comedy is deeply political? Was that always the case for you as a transgender person or did you kind of come into a realization around?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (02:57.35)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (03:19.581)
Yeah, so that's a complex one for me because I grew up on like, honestly, Dave Chappelle. Dave Chappelle, Richard Pryor, Paul Mooney, the usual suspects, George Carlin, of course. So I always knew that stand-up comedy had a political aspect to it.
After getting into comedy, I realized that most of comedy is actually really stupid. But as far as the politics of the industry itself, I would say that did come as a bit of a surprise to me. But I started in Portland, Oregon, so I actually had a leg up in a weird sense.
because at the time that I started comedy, our scene in Portland was primarily run by very powerful, like, invoice social activism, every possible way you could think of power, except for, you know, actual political power. But very political and powerful feminists and queer women, so I fit in nicely, but immediately...
ostracized myself from the boys club and that was before I had even transitioned. And since then, I have discovered just how politicized the industry is.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:58.7)
Yeah, because I think many people think of comedy being political in that comedians will often talk about politics, you know, that kind of part of things being political. And I and we can talk about that, too. But I'm I'm even more interested in the parts that we don't always think of about and the ways that they're political, as in who has access, who's seen, who's heard, who's not.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (05:08.263)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:20.098)
You know, the stuff that kind of goes on on the other side for you as the comedian, not so much us as the audience, although it also affects us and who we see and all of that. So I'm curious, like, since you said you started comedy before you transitioned, was there a difference in what you saw then in what that looked like? Or like you said, because you were in Portland, it was sort of less of an issue for you because you were not a part of that other scene to begin with.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (05:27.664)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (05:47.535)
Yeah. Yeah. So, that's a complicated one. I, like I said, I think when I first started being in Portland, worked out well for me. And then all of my mentors moved on to bigger and better things to LA, New York, all of that.
And then the boys club kind of stepped in and did what they do to comedy scenes, namely destroy them. Not to be, you know, horribly opinionated, but I am. Yeah. I'm sorry. My studio lights are all wonky. All right. Perfect. So yeah. And.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:25.688)
Well, please be. We are too, and that's what we're here for.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:32.393)
It's, I have no natural light right now either. So it's, is what it is.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (06:41.167)
I think the real political aspect of comedy has become more real for me since writing that piece on Chappelle.
In 2020, I figured that my career had already ended just because the pandemic and the boys had moved in and didn't like me to begin with. Definitely didn't like me now. So that's why I accepted the Guardian piece actually when Jeffrey Jay, another trans comic, reached out to me and was like, hey, the Guardian approached me. They want me to write the
piece on Chappelle's latest special which I had knowingly avoided but Jeff was like they want me to write this piece but
the bigger issue with the piece appears to be the massage noir. So as a white comic, I don't want to touch this at all. Are you willing to do it? And I'm like, sure, I don't have a real career yet. So I went ahead and wrote that and then got kicked off of Twitter and Instagram and Facebook for a little while, received a bunch of death threats.
for questioning the goat and yeah that really changed a lot of my view on comedy I realized what I was actually up against
Mx. Dahlia Belle (08:22.929)
But then, you know, being contacted directly and personally by Hannah Gatsby, I'm like, you know, maybe I just have a jaded viewpoint on comedy and...
then this most recent election occurred. And suddenly my career has seemingly once again functionally come to a close. So yeah, it's more than that.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52.308)
be so frustrating. I wonder on that first. So writing that piece originally, I know you said you sort of felt like your career is done. So it's kind of like the like, I'm just going to go out guns blazing. have a feeling. Right. But did you got that experience of what I have understand can happen in the world of entertainment, whether that's comedy or acting other places, which is this idea of kind of blacklisting people of like, this person is no longer welcome. And there are gate, there are such there's so much gatekeeping inside of
Mx. Dahlia Belle (09:01.359)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:20.002)
the entertainment industry and all these various elements that I imagine that meant that like that probably had some beyond the death threats, which are obviously huge, but also had like career repercussions for you. Like, doesn't that then limit your access to stage time and invitations to things before the Hannah thing happened?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (09:35.663)
Yes. It did, to a degree, not as much as the current social climate has, enough. Yeah, I think the timing of gender agenda was miraculous, to be quite honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:44.952)
Really?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (09:58.107)
Because yeah, it did come out in a time when people seemed open and willing to that sort of a special happening and immediately followed by a backlash. Like right on the heels of it, immediate backlash. So there was like this huge bump in my career and visibility for a few months.
And then, you know, like, Kill Tony, all the like, Austin Dude Bro comics, really put their flag in the sand, and were like, no, this will not continue to happen. And yeah, it's been pretty rough since then.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:47.298)
Yeah. Can you talk about the gatekeeping? mean, what is it that we the audience doesn't understand about how comedy shows work? Who gets stage time? How is that all decided? And what are kind of the politics at play there?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (11:02.511)
Yeah, so comedy is a pyramid scheme. That's the deep dark secret. Comedy shows are produced by comics. So whoever's the most popular comic in your scene probably runs the most shows and decides like.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:06.254)
Interesting.
I it.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (11:24.359)
who gets hurt, who gets booked, things of that nature. So that's why when you see these scenes form, what you're seeing are a bunch of people that just like each other. You're just seeing a friend group magnified into celebrity.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:45.902)
It's the old boys club idea, and it is mostly men. Historically has been, and there has been a narrative created that I think still sustains today. You tell me if I'm right or wrong here, that women aren't funny, that those guys created long ago, women aren't funny. then because of that, I think that even women have internalized that message.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (11:47.673)
Exactly.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (12:00.561)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:10.638)
So they, in the same way that women can't play sports to the same level, a lot of these things that are in other industries. So that means that we, as women, end up going to see male comics. We go to see men play sports. We start to buy into the belief that women aren't funny. And so then the ticket sales reflect that at the end, then that becomes the justification for continuing to say, we're not gonna allow women on stage. Is that what you experience?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (12:14.983)
Thank you.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (12:30.907)
Yes.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (12:34.365)
It is absolutely a self-replicating process, especially for me personally as a trans comic. I remember when I was first coming out as a comic and I would invite community members to my shows. At that point, it was very common. I just heard this mantra essentially of, comedy isn't for us.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:44.535)
Mx. Dahlia Belle (13:01.393)
And like, what do you mean? I know plenty of trans people who are hilarious. I know plenty of trans people with great senses of humor. I watch comedy. I know other trans people who watch comedy. But yeah, the...
Common consensus at that point was that stand-up was fundamentally opposed to us as a community and therefore trans people weren't showing up to a lot of shows. And then we started to shift that, but we're still a small group. So in the club scene particularly, comedy clubs are very unlikely to book us.
we tend to just default to the periphery of a scene.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:51.512)
And I'm assuming, because it seems to me that there's also sort of these silos where you have to fit into like, you're up against several of them, right? You're a woman, you're trans, you're black. And there's like, there's black comedy and white comedy. There's men comics and there's women comics. There's trans comics. And like when you're in several of these silos, I assume with each one. And again, what we're talking about here is intersectionality and massage noir like you're talking about, but like,
Mx. Dahlia Belle (14:01.744)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (14:07.514)
Easy.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (14:18.864)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:21.046)
With each of those, assume the barriers to entry become even greater for you.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (14:26.787)
Certainly. And I'm also aware, quite frankly, I'm committed to passability or selling myself on sex appeal. And I will be very honest and open about this. I did sell myself on sex appeal early on in my career. Pre-2020, if you were to look at my sets, it's very much, look at me, look at how fuckable I am.
doesn't that make it okay that I'm on stage? And it worked. I would love to say it didn't, but it does. So even now, when you do see...
trans comics, especially trans women in comedy or trans women anywhere if we're being honest, right? In cinema, television, whatever. What you're going to see most often is the most passable, the most attractive and stereotypically attractive at that because we are held to a higher beauty standard. So...
I'm also in my mid-40s. You know? So I'm not going to be offered or get the same opportunities as say a very small, slender-framed, 20-something who maybe no one even knows is trans until she throws it into a joke and then everyone is shocked and amazed that she's funny for some reason.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:04.332)
Yeah, all of this starts to make me beg the question, and I'm sure you've thought up yourself. Why do you choose a career like this? Right. And yet we need it. It sucks that you have to be a trailblazer, but we need people who are willing to challenge these norms. But it's also it has to be exceptionally exhausting. Like what led you into this and what keeps you going?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (16:31.097)
Yeah, what led me into it, honestly, and I have said this in many interviews as well, was trying not to kill myself. So I did not intend to be a professional comedian. That was not the goal. The goal was to occupy my time in a silly enough way that I wouldn't kill myself. And it just turned out that I was also kind of good at it.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:47.725)
interested.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (17:00.187)
And like I said, it's a pyramid scheme. So if people notice you're good at it, they rope you into doing more shows. The next thing you know, you're a professional comic.
And truthfully, comedy did help me come to terms with my own identity and, in effect, then treat my gender dysphoria and suicidal ideation because comedy does require us to be our truest, realest selves, no matter what.
Because if we fake it, everyone knows we're faking it and it's not going to attract the right audience. And the more honest and open I was, the more adamant my fan base has become. So, you know, I stay in it for that.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:48.174)
Sorry, just, that gets interesting for me because you also said sort of a few years back, it was sort of like leaning more into this sexuality and sort of in a way masking a bit to say like, look at me, look at me. And that may not have been your, it sounded like anyway, you're saying, okay, perfect. Okay. Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (18:06.481)
no, I was also a huge slut in my 30s. Yeah, don't get me wrong. Don't...
Becky Mollenkamp (18:13.102)
So you're just playing on that at the time because it felt a lie. I'm just curious if the more you lean into your truth, are you finding that that leads to more opportunity or is it more that it leads to more? It resonates more with those people who get it.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (18:28.707)
It definitely resonates more with the people who get it. I'll pull the curtain back on how comedy booking works as well. Social media following now matters more than most other things. Yeah. So yeah, she who has the largest social media following is who's booked as a headliner, whether or not
Becky Mollenkamp (18:32.046)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:44.642)
I wanted to talk about that, yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (18:57.997)
she necessarily does stand up.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:00.942)
Right. And gets, I think it's the multi-million dollar deal with the podcast company and all the other things, right? Yeah. Well, I want, let's go there then because algorithms, there's a great book called the algorithms of depression. And we know that algorithms are biased. They per they just recreate the same biases we see inside of the systems that already exist. And when, what's that?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (19:02.363)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (19:17.277)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (19:22.237)
Especially right now. Especially right now. Like, definitely bubbling down.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:26.05)
Yes. And so when we when we're when bookers are rely and the powers that be are relying on those numbers as some sort of proof of your value, your worth and or your ability, that's really it's obviously leaving a lot of people out. And we know the people who tend to get left out. Right. It's anyone who holds a marginalized identity and more so if you hold multiple. So how are you like, is that part of why you're like
Mx. Dahlia Belle (19:44.733)
Is it?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (19:51.642)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:55.522)
things are feeling shut down again. like, how are you dealing with it? How do you deal with the fact that you're up against trying to work with these algorithms that are already biased against you?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (20:08.325)
Yeah, truthfully, I spent most of last year deeply depressed. I'll be very honest and open about that. But I think I've regained my mindset of I see myself first and foremost as a performing artist. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:14.189)
Mm.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (20:29.167)
whether or not I get the big streaming contract or a movie deal or this that the other is irrelevant to the craft that I have chosen to do and that I'm addicted to. Let's be honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:45.198)
Well, and when there's the gatekeepers who are keeping folks out who aren't already in the club or who don't look like the other members of the club, what I'm hearing and what I think Hannah Gadsby really proved then with that special, although I know, you know, that's been a few years now and I'm not sure what's next, but, and I think it was a multi-special deal and I don't know if that means more might be coming. I hope that would be the case, but.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (20:54.757)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:10.348)
I'm assuming that means you have to create your own opportunities, right? This is, it ends up becoming incumbent on those with the least privilege to do the most work to get seen. How do you go about that? Does that look like, you know, communities of folks trying to band together and put on their own shows or, you know, what does it look like for you to say, I have to operate outside of these systems because they're not letting me in? What have you been doing to try and to sort of game the system?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (21:37.725)
Yeah, exactly. So outside of the club circuit, every city has its queer comedy scene. And that's where I thrive and flourish. And I think it's kind of been this way probably forever across the artistic disciplines that
queer people and marginalized people in general. Because honestly, I have it easier than say a visibly or audibly disabled comic. I want to be very clear. It's much, much easier for me to navigate this industry than it is for someone with a visible disability. I don't know why that is. I find it highly problematic, but that is the reality of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:28.302)
Right. Yeah. And so it looks like you find that you're joining those sort of more, for lack of a better term, like alt scenes, right? I think that's often what that sort of called that alternative comedy scene. And does it ever like does that break through or is that have you changed your like what are your goals? Is your goal to try and like break through to some other level or is it more like I just want to keep doing this for my own mental health?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (22:37.692)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:56.386)
to help others see, know, to have some representation and like, does that change what feels possible, I guess is the question.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (23:05.145)
It definitely changes what feels possible. I think increasingly I may be known more as a commentator or political critic than I am a comic, unfortunately, because honestly my comedy is mostly absurd. Despite.
And I guess that's the other political aspect of comedy that depending on your identity, regardless of what you're doing, suddenly it becomes politicized. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm just telling absurd stories and anecdotes that happen to be relevant to myself and people like me. Because those people happen to be black and queer, I am a political comic.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:55.256)
Hmm. It's not interesting though, because it was not interesting. I guess it's obvious, but it's angering that we are expected to go to the white syshet man's show and relate to all of their jokes about, you know, their dicks and their what, you know, all the things they like to talk about their sex lives, their, ways they show up and
Mx. Dahlia Belle (24:11.301)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:18.91)
jokes at their wives' expenses and all these things. We're supposed to relate or find that funny because that's what is considered the norm. When again, that represents a small portion of population, yet the opposite never seems to be an expectation or even an invitation to people to say, can you not find something that's funny about this, even if it isn't your lived experience? Because people without that lived experience have been fighting humor in it for decades.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (24:21.063)
Okay.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (24:48.251)
Yeah, and you know, I hear it and obviously, like I said, starting comedy, presenting as a man, I got to hear some of those green room discussions about, you know, yeah, how women only tell jokes about their periods from a guy who does a half hour on how bad he is at sex. And then like every gay comic is ostensibly working in the blue where
Becky Mollenkamp (25:00.366)
Is anything like blocker talk?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (25:18.319)
offensive, we're sexually explicit, but some straight dude who does 60 minutes on, you know, fucking bitches or whatever, that's just good, wholesome comedy for the whole family.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:34.666)
Oh, sure. Yeah, that has to be terribly frustrating. I mean, it's frustrating, think, as consumers, too, because there's a wealth of hilarious people that most of us just don't even we wouldn't know how to access that, like how to even find it. Right. So for the people who are listening, who are which is almost everybody's going to be consumers of comedy, not creators of comedy. Like, how do you break out of that? How do you even begin to discover
funny people who win your local funny bone or wherever you go to see comedy in your local city league, they're not putting them on the stage. And I mean, like you said, I love trying to find it, the local queer comedy scene if you have one. And it sounds like most major cities anyway do. But what are the ways you start to find that to say, I want to find some different voices?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (26:14.919)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (26:22.661)
Yeah, so I'm definitely gonna get myself solidly blacklisted. truthfully, boycott your local comedy club. Whatever the biggest, like, named comedy club in your city is, don't go.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:26.71)
Mx. Dahlia Belle (26:40.837)
to that club because chances are you're not going to see anything new, you're not going to see anything relevant. Half the people you're going to see aren't actually stand-up comics to begin with. What you're going to want to do, like if you have a local newspaper or something of that nature, check upcoming events.
things like that. And also keep in mind, this is a very difficult one for people because alt scenes, alt comics tend to perform in bars. So there becomes this weird gray area between what is a comedy show and what is an open mic. So if it is an open mic, that is not your local comedy scene.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:27.18)
And it may be good, but it could be real bad.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (27:29.347)
Exactly, that might be real, real bad. That's going to make you not want to do comedy or watch it ever again. But yeah, if you have theaters, especially, a lot of queer comics perform exclusively at theaters. Theaters tend to be a little more accommodating of us. you know, knowledge campuses are also a great place to go.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:51.02)
And college campuses, is that?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (27:57.261)
We tour a lot of college campuses, theaters, smaller venues, music venues even, but honestly you're not going to see a lot of us represented in a mainstream club. There are a few of us who have broken through, especially in New York. So I want to be fair to New York. New York is a completely different scene.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:18.232)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:24.728)
Well, that is good. are places. Because that makes me wonder, like, as a black trans woman, I would imagine, and I'm sure for other folks also, people with disabilities and, like, know, trans women who aren't black and, you know, all the different marginalizations, I imagine there's this added layer of safety that you have to consider too, right? That I'm guessing also just, you know, white women who are comics. I would just think that it's got to be an added layer of safety that the Cishet white man...
whose touring doesn't necessarily think about, that also factors into your choices about where you are able and willing to perform.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (29:01.061)
Yeah, there is that. Honestly, it doesn't impact me as much, only because I grew up in the Midwest in the 80s and 90s, so I don't care. Exactly, I don't have a lot of fear left. But honestly, especially for young cisgender women.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:15.736)
You already drank from the water hose and you know what it's like here.
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (29:29.455)
I would say more so than myself, comedy is extremely dangerous. There are a lot of very predatory men within this industry.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:41.708)
And that, mean, during the Me Too movement and some of the big names that apparently now are all forgiven and are touring again, like, right. But we know that that was definitely the case, right? And I assume that since that, you know, he's out there touring again, and I'm sure there's more than just the one, but huh. Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (29:48.987)
Exactly.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (29:58.737)
Which again, that's another clear tip off that a lot of the women comics who blew the whistle on these predatory men, in some cases men who literally brutally assaulted numerous women within their comedy scene, the survivors, the women themselves are who got blacklisted. All of those dudes are back out on the road.
if anything, being even more celebrated.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:28.45)
Yeah, I-
I talk about how they were canceled while still being multi-millionaires and now touring again. It's so frustrating. yet. And I wonder, how do you feel about separating the art from the artists? Because I hear you saying you grew up admiring and following the work of Dave Chappelle, among other people who were probably also problematic. I hear that from people sometimes. We to separate the art from the artists because
Mx. Dahlia Belle (30:35.941)
Exactly.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (30:50.93)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:59.574)
I mean, they're funny and that's, they're funny whether they're transphobic or they're funny, whether they're misogynistic or whatever. I just like the comedy itself. And I think we see that a lot from people. And I'm just curious where you fall on that as somebody who at one time anyway, looked at Dave Chappelle as a comedy kind of hero. And obviously, yeah, I've changed your feelings on that. Like, what would you say to somebody who's still in that camp?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (31:12.381)
Thank
Mx. Dahlia Belle (31:16.728)
absolutely.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (31:23.875)
I might be particularly biased. have an easier time doing that with say paintings or fiction writers or musicians even than I do with stand-up because
Becky Mollenkamp (31:27.554)
Well, that's you could be. We all could be.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:38.658)
Interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:43.49)
Mmm.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (31:49.549)
Stand Up is unfortunately one of those art forms where if you pay close enough attention to a comic, we confess to all of our faults. We let you know exactly who we are, exactly what it is we believe, and how we choose every day to show up in the world. So...
Yeah, if a comic is deeply problematic, it's in the material also, and I can't... that I can't reconcile. There's no separation for me.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:25.166)
Interesting. Yeah. Because as you said, like, the more you lean into your truth, the more it resonates with people and the more honest you are, the more people like the in general, a lot of times that's where people have most success. Like those artists, those comedians who get more specific in their very specific worldview. That's typically the ones who rise up and it's what makes them different and unique, but also then is showing their truth and telling us exactly
Mx. Dahlia Belle (32:53.947)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:54.946)
Yeah, exactly who they are. Well, what about punching up versus punching down? That's something that we hear about. And that's one of the reasons I think people have had issues with Dave Chappelle specifically. Although I your issue is it's just not funny, which I think is also a very valid argument. Is it not funny? Then is it comedy? But it's also this idea of like, it's one thing when you're punching up, meaning if you are somebody who holds multiple marginalized identities and you're making jokes that are
Mx. Dahlia Belle (33:08.593)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:24.59)
cruel even about like white cis het men. They have there's a power differential there that we can't pretend doesn't exist. But when you're punching down at somebody who has less privilege and power than you, that that is like a cheap shot. Is that do you agree with that idea of punching up versus punching down and that that is a big part of this issue? Or is it more like you're okay as long as it's funny?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (33:48.806)
Yeah, so.
Honestly, I would say I'm okay as long as it's funny. So my issue with the idea of punching up versus punching down, and this is gonna be very self-reverential, but for me, my gauge of if I have succeeded on stage.
I want to find someone who likes me from the beginning of my set and someone who hates me from the beginning of my set. And if both of those people laugh at the same time, then that's the joke that I keep.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:28.984)
Interesting. So that's how you go about kind testing material.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (34:30.597)
So, exactly. So for me, I think the idea of punching up versus punching down only becomes relevant in the sense that someone who faces more oppression or discrimination is rightly going to be more sensitive to things that paint them in a negative light.
At the same time, I also know that if I get on stage and I try to do a 60-minute routine on the problems of cishet white dudes, it's not gonna go well.
If I'm in a specifically all queer audience, then yeah, they'll go with it. But if I'm at a diverse audience, it's going to feel flat and potentially even performative. So I'm not really a fan of punching up either. I'm a fan of being funny.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:38.83)
So what is it that isn't funny, given that perspective, like, because my issues with Chappelle and Gervais and the others that are kind of taking this transphobic stance is, I feel like it's these men with power punching down at people who don't. It also feels, especially in the case of like Gervais, it feels a bit like opportunistic. Like, let me see which way the winds are. Sorry.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (35:55.09)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (36:03.069)
It's mostly there.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:06.796)
Okay, good. Because that's what it feels like. feels like the winds are blowing this way. This is where I'll make my money. And that's annoying to me as well. But I'm curious, like, what do you find unfunny about it? Like, are there are there jokes that you think Chappelle could tell about the trans community that would be funny? Or is it just not his place to be making those jokes?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (36:26.959)
Yeah, there are jokes that can be told. I feel so bad about not remembering this first comic's name. Davy Kersh. So there's a comic that I happen to adore, Davy Kersh, and...
she did take some flack for this joke. I personally think it's a beautifully written joke. It's hilarious. And yes, it is edgy, but it's a joke on her having a conservative uncle who works in the prison system, who was so opposed to this trans woman prisoner receiving gender affirming care. And the punchline is essentially,
Well, you said you wanted rapists to get their dicks cut off and she's doing it for you. So what's the complaint? Which I think is valid and funny.
Another one of my friends is Sir Lance Edward. So the most cisgender heterosexual man alive. I don't know of anyone who is more bro-y than this man. But he has a brilliantly written joke about if his daughter were to come out as a trans man, he would absolutely support her.
but she has to buy her own dick because there's no way she's gonna be better hung than he is. That's funny, you know? And I think the difference is knowing the topic. And a lot of these people like Dave Chappelle, Ricky Gervais, they don't know the topic.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (38:19.491)
It's just an easy paycheck. It's just low-hanging fruit. And if you're not willing to research the topic, then that's lazy comedy. So I'm more offended as a writer.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:30.722)
Yeah, I totally hear you. And the opportunistic piece is really frustrating because it feels like, you know, we're just in a time where it's like, what's the easy, what's again, it's kind of like you said the easy thing. What's the easy thing I can do right now for like, why is it important for voices that are not white bros to be heard? And why is it important for us to go seek them out as consumers? Like, why does this matter, especially in this time?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (38:42.001)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (39:00.006)
absolutely, and I'm very opinionated on this one.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04.59)
Well good, give me lots.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (39:07.961)
I see online a lot of younger trans people who are very sad. They're very deeply sad. And I get it. I know why. And also,
My job as a comedian is to take that pain, to take that difficulty of lived experience and find why it's funny, why we can still laugh and be okay and continue moving through the world with our heads held high. So to have comedy relegated exclusively to straight white men deprives
everyone else of our fundamental humanity.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:57.122)
Yeah. And so seeking that out is something that can help you as somebody who's being reflected. But what about, too, for people like exploring voices that are unlike their own? You know, what do you get from that? Because, again, you've been asked your whole life to enjoy the comedy of white men. And I imagine there are some like you mentioned George Carlin, there are probably some people you did enjoy and that did add to your life.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (40:21.254)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:23.436)
You know, what is it for me, for the white dude, for, you know, the cishet person, why should they seek out this kind of comedy? Like, what do they get from that experience of laughing with people who have a different identity?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (40:36.571)
Yeah, to be honest, I think people from marginalized identities are fundamentally more creative. We are funnier, we are more artistic, we are more imaginative because we have to be.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:50.414)
this have to be.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:00.77)
Yeah, you have to imagine worlds that don't exist, right? Yeah, I mean, that's always been the case. I mean, you take the likes of Octavia Butler and just thinking about like the world building and what she imagined could be. And here we are living it now. And people saying like, I couldn't even imagine this could exist. And it's like, well, Octavia did decades ago because exactly that. Like we imagine, you're imagining worlds that don't exist.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (41:03.429)
Exactly.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (41:20.989)
Yeah. if you think about it, know, part of comedy, one of our primary tools is misdirection. And I especially noticed this in situations where I do dip my toe into the mainstream club's circuit.
that a lot of the audiences that will go to a comedy club, they're not actually laughing at the joke. They're not laughing due to the craft. They're laughing because the comic on stage is just like their buddy. It's just like whoever they came to the club with. It's just representing more of the same repeated ad nauseum.
And that to me isn't truly funny. I think it's better to be surprised from time to time.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:17.868)
And yeah.
And it's like this permission slip in a way to sort of say everything's okay because they all think the same stuff is funny. mean, people laughing at some of these, like you said, unfunny jokes about at the expense of the trans community and extending that to all the unfunny jokes about women in general. And I mean, there are unfunny jokes about any group of people. And I think that part of that is like, it's this permission slip for me to be okay. Like if everyone else here is laughing, then it must be okay.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (42:27.687)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (42:40.508)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (42:46.597)
Mm-hmm.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (42:50.663)
Correct. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:51.98)
Yeah. And so challenging that for yourself, I think, seems important.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (42:56.037)
Yeah, and also like being exposed to especially like queer comics, women in comedy, the permission slip is still there effectively, right? It's like, yes, you can laugh at a trans person with my permission. I am telling you what's actually funny about this experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:22.624)
It's the lack of consent, right? Like, and that's so good, Dalia. That's exactly it. It's consent, right? That's the piece that feels like it's missing in some of the other ways that it's being delivered is it doesn't feel like the person holding that identity ever consented to that type of joke about their identity. Yeah. And in the culture we're existing in, and have always existed in, let's be honest, inside a patriarchy, but it feels heightened at this moment of like rape culture, consent.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (43:27.139)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (43:39.772)
correct.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (43:50.373)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:51.486)
right? And it mattered. This is one of those ways that it shows up and for us to think about that. Like, did the person, the type of person that's being joked about here, do they have, do you think that they have their consent to that? Make that kind of joke. That's so good to consider. Thank you. All right. I want to honor your time. I really appreciate you doing this. It's been really interesting to me. Like most of the things we're doing in this series, I feel like I have more understanding of the industries that we're talking about.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (44:05.156)
Exactly.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (44:19.555)
You know?
Becky Mollenkamp (44:19.598)
I wear clothes every day. We're talking about clothing. We're talking about books. We read a lot. Comedy is the one that I was like, I really wanted to talk to you because I love your voice online and I loved the special that I saw with you too. And I was like, I don't feel like I know the comedy world at all. And so it's been really illuminating for me. So I appreciate you talking to me about things that you're probably like, this is so obvious. But it's been interesting. OK, good. Well, it's been very interesting for me.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (44:40.249)
No, not at all. No, these are all smoking mirrors. We're like magicians.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:45.934)
magicians and MLMs. So it's very interesting. What is the thing that you would want people, and again, that's going to be consumers of comedy, what would you want them to leave this conversation with?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (44:58.801)
The importance of hearing a diversity of voices in comedy because the world is fundamentally hilarious. I think, you know, hearing more voices, hearing from people who you don't have a lot in common with and finding out what is funny to everyone else. Why is it funny for all of us as people? And then that can actually bring us together instead of
ripping us further and further apart.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:32.11)
Comedy is art, it's an art form, and art matters all the time, but it matters probably the most when things are really hard. And I think sometimes that's when people start to think it's frivolous and not meaningful, but it's sort of its most meaningful. So seek it out and find voices that aren't like you. So I love that. Thank you so much, Dahlia. I will, actually, I'm just going to put in the show notes, unless there's anything you want to call out in particular about where people can find you. But where do you like, I know you're on Instagram and threads, where do you like to hang out the most?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (45:34.204)
Yeah.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (45:58.366)
Yeah. Yeah, that's mostly where I am. I do like to warn people. Instagram, I post about shows and I post reels, things of that nature. If you follow me on threads, you're gonna find out way too much about my personal life and actual political opinions. So, you know, depends on what you want from me. I am also on Blue Sky if you want to...
Becky Mollenkamp (46:21.782)
I like all of that.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (46:27.013)
hear my rough drafts. So that is where I'm the silliest.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:29.784)
Love it. you have a YouTube channel. don't know. you update that often?
Mx. Dahlia Belle (46:35.133)
I'm really lazy about YouTube. I'm so lazy.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:37.538)
No problem. Well, we will put links to all the other things along with our Guardian article for people who'd like to read that as well. And is Gender Agenda still available on Netflix? Okay, good. So people go watch that as well.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (46:46.807)
Yes, yes it is. Watch that several times. Just put it on loop. Just put it on repeat and just like leave your house. Just leave it playing while you're at work.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:56.406)
You get to pay out for that because if you do, I'll start doing it.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (46:59.738)
I do not get... You asked about the multi-special contract. Okay, here's the secret.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:08.558)
Everybody lean in.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (47:10.565)
Yeah, so that show, that special, we all just rode Hannah's coattails. Hannah had the multi-special contract. The rest of us were just a bunch of weird queers that Hannah gave us. Yes, exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:28.46)
You're awesome, queers. But I'm assuming if it performs well, the better the... The more that people are watching those kinds of things, seeking out these kinds of voices, know, alternative voices, that matters.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (47:40.581)
Yes, the less the streaming service can deny that we actually have an audience, even if they try to bury us.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:45.014)
Right. And that is how we use our that's how we use our privilege capital for anyone who has privilege. These are the ways you use your privilege capital. You follow comedians like Dahlia on social media. You watch these sorts of specials when they come out. You put your attention, your money, all of that towards these voices so that they have more of a chance of getting a platform because the gatekeepers are doing everything they can to keep you out of platforms. So we have to demand it. So all right, we will do our part.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (48:12.079)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:14.562)
I'll put it on repeat. Thank you, Dahlia.
Mx. Dahlia Belle (48:15.838)
Much appreciated. Bye.