Beyond Margins: Designing Calmer B2B Agencies & Consulting Firms

How do you reduce urgency in a world where urgency is so deeply embedded? How do you market yourself and your work in a way that is anti-oppressive? 

We're continuing in our mini-series on my calmer framework for a calmer business. This week, we're focused on reudcing urgency and techniques for anti-oppressive marketing. 

We're joined by Natalia Sanyal, an anti-oppressive copywriter and brand messaging strategist. She’s worked with billion-dollar businesses like Apple and Lululemon, New York Times bestselling authors like Layla Saad & Deepak Chopra, and award-winning marketing agencies. Now, she teaches high-integrity personal brands to use marketing as a force for good so they can sell better and harm less.

On this episode, we learn some techniques to reduce urgency in our work, align actions with values to foster a calmer atmosphere for you, your team, and your business. 

Listen to the Full Episode to Hear:
  1. How can you move away from the default urgency-driven model?
  2. How can you reduce client emergencies and create more flexibility?
  3. What are the real-world applications of aligning business actions with values?
  • How does embracing vulnerability play into the human aspects of entrepreneurship?
Learn more about Natalia Sanyal
Learn more about me, Susan Boles:
 
We value your thoughts and feedback. Feel free to share them with Susan here. Your input is not just valuable, it's crucial in shaping future episodes.
  • (00:00) - Introduction to Human-Centered Entrepreneurship
  • (00:55) - The Elements of a Calm Business
  • (01:40) - Reducing Urgency in Business
  • (03:03) - Anti-Oppressive Marketing with Natalia Sanal
  • (24:51) - Embracing Anti-Oppressive Marketing
  • (26:20) - Taking the Leap: Transitioning to Value-Aligned Clients
  • (31:19) - Deconstructing Urgency in Business
  • (37:47) - Building a Calmer, Sustainable Business

Grab the Calm Service Design + Delivery Swipe File here

Creators & Guests

Host
Susan Boles
Speaker, Podcaster & Consultant at Beyond Margins | 15+ years of experience as both a CFO and COO

What is Beyond Margins: Designing Calmer B2B Agencies & Consulting Firms ?

Can you build a business based on… “calm?” On Beyond Margins, host Susan Boles looks beyond the usual metrics of success to help you build a business where calm is the new KPI. With over 15 years of experience as an entrepreneur, CFO, and COO, Susan shares the business strategies that lead to a business with comfortable margins—financial, emotional, energetic, and scheduling margins. Join her and her guests as they counter the prevailing “wisdom” about business growth, productivity, and success to provide a framework for making choices that align with your values and true goals. Episode by episode, you’ll get a look at the team management, operations, financials, product development, and marketing of a calmer business.

Susan Boles:

Hey, Susan here. Before we get into the episode, I wanted to give you just a quick heads up that our audio setup wasn't ideal for this episode, but the conversation is so great. I hope you'll tune in and bear with us that the audio quality isn't quite up to our usual standard. You can also read the transcript linked in the show notes if you prefer. Alright.

Susan Boles:

Onto the show.

Natalia Sanyal:

I think, like, just being more open about us being human beings. Like, I don't feel like we let ourselves be human. As entrepreneurs, we feel like we have to be this, like, super professional. We have it all together. All our ducks in a row.

Natalia Sanyal:

Whereas, like, I think people respond really well to just the opposite.

Susan Boles:

Urgency is the enemy of calm. In order to design and build a calm business, you have to consistently and consciously reduce urgency. Hi there. I'm Susan Bowles, and this is Beyond Margins, a show where we deconstruct how to engineer a calmer business. We're wrapping up a mini series where we've been examining the common elements of a calm business.

Susan Boles:

Calm businesses don't happen by accident. They have to be intentionally designed that way. And assuming that's the case, then the question really becomes, how do you actually do that? How do you engineer calm? If you haven't listened to the rest of the series, I highly recommend you head back to the beginning to catch up.

Susan Boles:

We've covered clarity, autonomy, care, margins, efficient systems, and rest. These are the common elements that are critical to engineer a calmer business. Today, we're wrapping it up talking about the final element, reducing urgency. But we're also gonna talk about the real world application of all of these elements because these concepts are great in theory, but what does it look like in practice to really align your actions with those values? Because having an intention to run a calm business is one thing, but you have to take action.

Susan Boles:

You have to put those elements into practice to make it become reality. When it comes to building a calmer business, it's really important to realize that the enemy of calm is urgency. When you feel like you have to rush around and everything is an emergency, it's not possible for things to be calm. So in order to create that calm, you have to consciously reduce urgency. You have to learn to slow things down.

Susan Boles:

Learn to cultivate some patience. But that's not the default. That's not what we're trained to do. We're supposed to move fast and break things. We're supposed to grow at all costs.

Susan Boles:

We're supposed to use manipulative marketing tactics to make the sale because we've gotta grow. But what if instead of that, we slowed down? What if we thought about the impact of running our businesses that way and then we changed our actions to align with what we actually believed instead of what we're supposed to do? My guest today is the perfect example of that. Natalia Sanyal is a smart savvy marketer.

Susan Boles:

She's worked with $1,000,000,000 big name businesses like Apple and Lululemon. But as you'll hear her talk about, she didn't wanna do things the way she was supposed to anymore. She wanted to use her powers for good instead of for evil. So now she's an anti oppressive copywriter and brand messaging strategist. She teaches high integrity personal brands including my own to use marketing as a force for good so that they can sell better and harm less.

Susan Boles:

We'll talk about what anti oppressive marketing is and how you can use it to make your own marketing less harmful both to yourself and to the world. We'll cover what happened in her business when she took the leap to align her marketing with her values. And we're also gonna get into deconstructing urgency. Both from an ethical marketing perspective, but just generally how to reduce urgency in your own business. So you describe yourself as an anti oppressive marketer.

Natalia Sanyal:

To me, I'd interpret that to mean that marketing by default is inherently oppressive. Yeah. I do think that that is the case and it's pretty accurate. I like to ask this question every now and then on LinkedIn, and it's actually even on my, like, opt in form. I put it everywhere.

Natalia Sanyal:

Can I ask people who are my customers or, in my audience how it feels to market themselves? And, like, 90% of the time, the answers are so heavy and really negative. Like, people will say it feels dangerous. It feels blimey. It feels like unnecessary evil or not values aligned is one, like, throws that a lot.

Natalia Sanyal:

And so, like, why are people feeling this way? I think it's people don't, a, hate marketers. They don't trust the us. They don't trust the marketers. So when they have to do it for themselves, like, you know, entrepreneurs, personal is it feels really gross.

Natalia Sanyal:

So why is it that marketing has this impact on consumers and I'd say humanity first businesses? I think it's because the the past state of marketing and the current state of marketing is built around this belief that the revenue justifies the needs. And so we end up doing all the tactics and strategies that really end up harming humanity in the process. But it is effective and it makes us money. That's where it's like it's really tricky.

Natalia Sanyal:

And I agree with it being dangerous in that sense because it is effective as far as revenue. But in that process, we are hurting ourselves, and we are hurting our people. I see it as a problem in the way that we have always done it, and, and I'm seeing a shift as well at the same time. I'd say the biggest shift happened in 2020. Brands were, like, super conscious of the impact that their marketing was having on people because people were getting really loud and public about how they felt about corporate branding, marketing tactics, and, you know, the languages that they were using.

Natalia Sanyal:

So now brands are paying attention, and 80% of consumers purchase from companies that they feel are aligned with their values. That gives me hope for antidepressant marketing. That marketing is changing and companies are kind of being forced

Susan Boles:

to do that. Do you think that's still the case? There was that, like, big bump in 2020 where we were all at home and George Floyd and that was followed by the, like, hot labor, all the strikes summer. Like, we've had a lot of years where that I I think was really visible. And I'm wondering if you're seeing sort of a shift a little bit in the opposite direction.

Natalia Sanyal:

I know that that is the case for DEI and, right, my work is very tied into DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion. At the same time, I find that it is still the case that people are not willing to support companies where their values don't align with what's going on in Palestine and a lot of the boycotts. Like, that's still the case. That's still how people are willing to align their money even with the the, politicians and the elections that are coming up and the companies that are supporting the different politicians. I think it it definitely had, like, a huge burst in 2020, and it has kind of calmed down a little bit.

Susan Boles:

I guess when you're thinking about in terms of, like, boycotts and people being really passionate about where they are or aren't spending their money, you're right. It is actually really effective. The Starbucks boycott did actually tank their revenue and the Kellogg's boycott earlier this year did actually have a pretty significant impact as well. So I think I feel like from the big company perspective down, they feel like they can get away with not being as proactive about it. But from the consumer perspective, I think there's a lot more collective action happening.

Susan Boles:

Yeah. So that stuff is still happening, which is great. So we are of the mind that we should be acting and using our marketing in accordance with our values that consumers will actually buy according to those values for the most part. But what are the problems that actually come from that default marketing approach? From that growth at all costs, you know, the revenue makes all actions worth it kind of modeled.

Natalia Sanyal:

The for example, there's maybe you know about this copyright infringement. It's super popular and commonly taught. It's called the PAS framework. FAB stands for problem, agitate solution. So in that framework, we are taught to write our copy in that format where we first take the problem and then we agitate where where the copy is designed to evoke emotions of shame and even, like, trigger trauma and desperation so that after they feel that way, you present the solution, and they are desperate to buy.

Natalia Sanyal:

It's just a lot easier to sell when someone is in that really volatile state that causes psychological damage, to the consumers. Then there's the financial damage that it can cause for people because marketing, typically, it's changing, but we got away with a lot without consent. Now even nowadays, it's very common for I'll agree to, like, a a network will call just a friendly chat with somebody. And after the chat, I am automatically added to their mailing list, which was not the intention of connecting with them. It had, like I never opted in, but it happens quite often.

Natalia Sanyal:

Another one is, like, fast action bonuses that happen at the end of webinars where people on the webinar have no idea that they're even gonna be sold to. And then at the end of the webinar, they've got, like, 20 minutes to make a decision and get this fast action bonus where it does require, like, a significant investment. It's not required to see, investments be, like, 4 figure, 5 figure investment, and they give you 20 minutes to make that decision. So people who are in that state of, like, you know, the whole webinar is kinda set up for that moment, and they are excited. They do not have time to check if this is actually a good decision for their bank accounts or all the things you have to consider before making an investment like that.

Natalia Sanyal:

You don't have time, but fast action bonuses are very effective. So that will cause significant financial damage depending on, you know, the person's state of viruses in that moment when they make that decision. You will see companies like the Walmart Juneteenth ice cream that they released in 2019. No. They released a Juneteenth ice cream flavor.

Natalia Sanyal:

So that was one that, like social media just tore them down, and they had to release a public apology. But that's a classic example of exploiting the suffering of marginalized people. Walmart is obviously huge, but I see smaller examples of that in my inbox all the time. In Canada, we have Indigenous Peoples Day on June 21st. I'll get a lot of Indigenous people's day discount for things like spas.

Natalia Sanyal:

Have nothing to do with anything, but it's a they think that's, like, a great marketing strategy. And if you're listening to this and thinking like, oh, crap. I've done, like, all of those things. It's okay. I have done, honestly, most of those things too in my marketing career because it's what we've been taught is this is business.

Natalia Sanyal:

This is marketing. And I didn't even think I could talk about this because I have done all the things before. But I talk about it now because I I don't want Shane to get in the way of, like, moving forward. But once a week, I will find myself doing something that like, on auto, that is the opposite of what I am teaching in artistic marketing. I'll give you an example.

Natalia Sanyal:

I have an offer where it's, like, templates. I sell my templates. I lay to my post sometime. So in that week, I had given a template where I put in a post a free post of somebody else's post. So in that template, I shared the original post, and I named the the person whose post it was.

Natalia Sanyal:

But I had to ask for that person's permission. And I realized that after the fact. And it was one of those moments which I was so familiar with. Like, oh, lord. And I didn't get it.

Natalia Sanyal:

I'm making money off this and then keeping that person as example, which that person who wrote that post, not for me to use in Paydock. So I had to reach out to them and ask them and apologize. And I think that, like, it's important for me to share these names because we we're gonna mess up. We're gonna catch ourselves doing these things all the time, and then we need to be able to be okay with that and apologize and then correct, of course. Yeah.

Natalia Sanyal:

Learn from it.

Susan Boles:

Well, I also think, you know, so much of what you're doing, both on the marketing standpoint but also from the anti oppressive standpoint, so much of this is so deeply and unconsciously ingrained. It is really, really hard sometimes to be able to step back from it and look and see even if you're really well versed on anti oppressive practices and you're really keeping it in mind in the same way, you know, you mentioned that, like, you've done all of the marketing things. Me too. Especially at the beginning when you are starting a business, That's when you are most easily preyed on by the standard marketers. That's who they're targeting.

Susan Boles:

You don't know that there's something else. You assume that this is just the way business is done, and you end up in this, like, box that you don't really see that you're in a box. Marketing is one of those places where I think it's most prevalent in our businesses. There are a lot of other places where we're a little bit more open, I think, to different techniques or different tactics or trying something in a new way because it doesn't feel as tied to revenue or as tied to, you know, things that are not insignificant. Like, we're running businesses to feed ourselves, to feed and support our families.

Susan Boles:

And, like, that's that's not made up. And that's where it gets tricky. They're like, that's a challenge for me. And I

Natalia Sanyal:

get faced with this question quite often where it's like, okay. I love this idea of anti passive marketing. But does it actually work? And that's the third question. Part of the thing that I share a lot on LinkedIn is just my experiments because I'm constantly trying out new things mostly to prove to people and myself that, like, we don't have to do it that way.

Natalia Sanyal:

And this way can absolutely work. And the cool thing is because this is not yet the standard, like, status quo of marketing, it is a 100%, like, a feature of why people choose to work with you. Because they appreciate that as a business, we have taken, into consideration, like, how our marketing materials impact them. You know, being upfront about as a promise that we're making and just it feels such a business risk, but it actually has the complete opposite effect for people. Like, they hate you for saying that you're not promising that I'm gonna make a $1,000,000 in 30 days because I wouldn't believe you.

Natalia Sanyal:

We just had to be a little brave and, like, trust that the truth is a lot it it gets appreciated a lot more than it is.

Susan Boles:

Anti oppressive is clearly a big value for you. It's your main focus. But from an actual, like, tactical perspective, what does that actually mean when it comes to marketing? What does anti oppressive marketing look like?

Natalia Sanyal:

There are kinda 3 buckets that I assess to make sure that my marketing is anti oppressive, and those 3 buckets are, is it good for business? That one is the bucket that we are all And then is it's, good for humanity, and is it good for me? I'll give you some examples of what I look at when I'm looking at marketing for myself, for my clients, and assessing if it is good for them. We look at, are you doing strategies and tactics that are actually stable for you? Are you trying to, like, do the thing that everybody's doing and it's super draining?

Natalia Sanyal:

Like, you know, videos are hot on whatever platform, but if you suck at videos or if it's, like, a stretch for you to, like, look presentable on videos, then maybe don't make that your marketing strategy even if it's the hot thing. So is it sustainable? We look at, like, marketing boundaries. People feel like they need to respond to every comment, every DM, and they need to post once a day or multiple times a day on multiple platforms. I my boundaries for myself are, like, if my app, Latyn, is the only first of all, it's the only marketing platform that I do, just one because that's all I can.

Natalia Sanyal:

It is not on my fault unless I am sending a voice note in a DM. And when I do that, it's deleted. So that's, like, one of the bad news I have. And it's so important because social media is singing over our whole life. So we look at boundaries.

Natalia Sanyal:

We look at sustainability. Are we leveraging your strength? That's like the flip side of the coin. It's like, what comes really easy to you? Does writing come naturally to you?

Natalia Sanyal:

Do you love making gifts of yourself? Like, it could be something totally random, and we're allowed to do those impacts. It's, like, an advantage. As a personal brand, because I work with personal brand, figure out, like, what you're thinking. And one of the braces I like to look is, like, just my text messages to my friends.

Natalia Sanyal:

That's where we tend to be, like, ourselves the most. I'm not personally not, like, sending long voice notes. But Brad saved me for it, but I'm, like, a huge voice noter. So my newsletter has an audio version where I'm, like, essentially, like, reading you my newsletter because I feel very comfortable doing that kind of thing. And then as far as, like, is it good for humanity?

Natalia Sanyal:

This is the part where people just feel really lost as to, like, where you start. And one filter that I find is so helpful, it kinda, like, encompasses everything in look at your marketing strategy, tactics, your language that you're using, and ask yourself if you use that on the person that you love the most. That's, like, the easiest way to be like, oh, no. This I would never do that. I would never do that for my daughter.

Natalia Sanyal:

So my daughter is that person for me. When I ask myself that question, it's always after I've created the marketing materials. I don't let myself get stuff from, like, how can I be inclusive and acceptable and make sure that I'm asking for consent when I'm creating? Because let's face it. The default is all the status quo.

Natalia Sanyal:

That's kind of how we've been programmed. I'm a marketer. I've been programmed that way for over a decade. I just let myself do the thing before I publish it when I'm editing. Then I put on my, like, is this good for a human?

Natalia Sanyal:

Did I use language that is not great?

Susan Boles:

I love that as a as a technique because I talk a lot about, you know, human first finance and human first operation. Like, being a human first company, it's really hard to kind of tangibly explain what that is. But I think your example of, like, would you do this to your favorite human is a really good, like, very tactical way of implementing that.

Natalia Sanyal:

Yeah. I I think you're right. It is really hard to explain these things, but when you put when you have, like you picture that person, it becomes suddenly tangible and then it's, like, easier.

Susan Boles:

So tell me a little bit about what this actually looks like for you in your own business, in your own marketing. You've given us few examples of, like, how you write your copy and what channels you you set. But are there other things in your business that you do in your own marketing or your own practices?

Natalia Sanyal:

Yeah. There's so many things. One of the things I do is I get fancy later. So, you know, you've heard of, like, a minimum viable approach to things. And that's, like, trendy right now, and I'm so glad because we need to take that approach.

Natalia Sanyal:

So doing things like don't worry about a fancy sales page. Don't create a logo. You don't even need a name for your thing that you're selling. Just sell the thing first. So for me, that's a Google Doc.

Natalia Sanyal:

I'll create a, quote, unquote, sales page on a Google Doc and see what happens there before I create sales page. So what is the least I can do in my marketing before I start taking the next level? The next level things are often visual. I feel so bad. I know that graphic designers are listening to this, and they're like, no.

Natalia Sanyal:

Like, graphics are absolutely very effective. Logos are awesome. You know, visual branding is great. I just I think it we need to start before that and allow ourselves to be a little raw in the beginning of an offer or the beginning of our business. And we get so stuck on those things.

Natalia Sanyal:

Like, creating our graphic takes so long when we are non graphic designers, And it's just not where we need to be spending our time. We worry so much about, like, our how people are perceiving us visually, whereas, like, the message is really what matters the most. So nail the message in the way that you deliver it. Like, do it in a way that's easiest for you. If a Google Doc feel too much, then I would just do, like, a video where I'm talking about my office.

Natalia Sanyal:

I wasn't comfortable with that. So minimum approach to marketing, I have to constantly train my brain to do it. That's one thing. And then selling the thing before I build it is another huge, like, game changer thing. When I'm writing, it's always in the editing phase, like I mentioned before, where I will apply the filters.

Natalia Sanyal:

By the way, I'm a copywriter, and language is where I trip up the most. All the touring, the language, it just it just comes out. I'm 40. I have been I've been on this for 40 years, and the language is it's really hard to, like, reverse that conditioning. You know?

Natalia Sanyal:

So like I said, I don't try to write from, like, a perspective of anthropomorphic nature from the get go. I'll just do that later. That's, another thing that is, like, really hard for people to kinda wrap their heads around because they get excited about the idea of it, and they get stuck if we don't know how to, like, start writing like that. So those are some of the things that I use for myself other than, like, the social media boundaries. But it is, like, an endless assessment of am I providing enough consent here for people?

Natalia Sanyal:

Am I transparent enough for them to make, like, an informed purchase decision? Do they know what they're getting into when they sign up for this? And I often won't have the answer right away. Like, I will realize, like, oh, this person didn't know that it was gonna be, like, whatever x, y, zed. So then why, like, update?

Natalia Sanyal:

And if an apology is necessary, it's okay. We're gonna make mistakes. And I think that that's been really healing for me and for the people that I work with to, like, understand that there's so much that we need to consider. It's impossible to get it all. We'll try our best.

Natalia Sanyal:

We're gonna make mistakes. I just wanna reiterate, just, like, giving yourself grace in this journey of exploring and playing around with anti press marketing, you don't have to put so much pressure on yourself to get it right. In fact, like, it feels scary, but the more you talk about the mistakes, the better it gets. People are very willing to forgive and are usually really gracious in return. So I would say that, like, don't be scared of of making mistakes.

Natalia Sanyal:

Just be open about it. We fix it.

Susan Boles:

I love that. And it's a really important perspective, particularly when you're trying to do things that are, against the norm, against the default, and really go against just really deeply ingrained ideas where you just it's really hard to see things that are designed to be invisible, I think. So talk to me a little bit about the impact of making this transition whether good, bad, surprising, kind of shifting your business into this anti oppressive area and really actually using these anti oppressive tactics for yourself. What has the impact been for you or your business?

Natalia Sanyal:

Oh my gosh. Okay. So I I've been in marketing and copywriting for, like, over a decade, and I didn't ever talk about it before. I was always a little bit ashamed. There was a lot that I loved about marketing.

Natalia Sanyal:

I loved the creativity. I love psychology in general. Like, that I hated the manipulation part. So I love talking about my work. And I always told myself that, like, marketing is great.

Natalia Sanyal:

It pays the bills, and it satisfies, like, my desire for creativity in my work. But I'm gonna find a thing one day that's, like, really my thing that aligns with my values. And then 2020 happened, and it gave me this gift of, like it really opened the doors for me to be brave enough to announce that I am no longer doing marketing, a, for, like, companies that refuse to take warranty press through, and finally working with people who are willing to experiment with and, like, really devote their marketing to this asset. And it felt like I was taking the biggest risk ever. I was so nervous, but I remember the day that I decided to do it.

Natalia Sanyal:

I was canoeing with 2 fellows of mine, and I was telling them about this transition that I was thinking about. And I was like, I should make my slogan, decolonize your copy. And you all started laughing, like, wouldn't that be hilarious that you actually, like, publicly say that? That's so that's so just it's so, you know, in your face. And then I ended up putting that in my LinkedIn banner, and it was the best move ever.

Natalia Sanyal:

When I did that, I decided I was going all in, updated my banner, and outlined, like, what my key messages are for the things that I wanted to talk about being known for my perspective on, you know, anti Preston marketing. I gave myself 2 months, and let me just see what happened. I didn't sell anything in that time. My goal was just to show up and, like, was being visible, which is very uncomfortable. And it changed my whole world.

Natalia Sanyal:

I I did not realize, like, I could have an audience of people who would wanna work with me that I actually wanted to work with. That was the best part. It's like, oh, I don't have to stuff it up and, like, do marketing for a company that I am actually so embarrassed that I worked for because I know that they're, you know, not known for the best business practices. So as a result, the people that aligned my values showed up in my LinkedIn. It wasn't like I blew up or anything.

Natalia Sanyal:

I had, like, 8,000 followers for the first long while, and it was enough for me to create something that I was proud of that made a difference with those people and made 6 figures in the 1st year. It was, like, on the lower end of the 6 figures, but I was just happy that I was doing something that was sustainable for me and not for me and my daughter to live off of and really was values aligned. So it's been really great, and I it was my favorite risk that I've taken so far in business.

Susan Boles:

For sure it was risky because it was in such direct conflict to the default. But I as one of those people who saw you pop up and then deeply resonated with it, it was so refreshing and attractive in a way that, like, it it and, you know, having implemented a lot of the same kinds of practices in my own work, I have found it works so well as a filter. I am almost never telling a prospective client like, hey, it's not really a good fit. Like, I am happy to refer you to my colleague who does this, who I think you'll really resonate with, which is what I spent the majority of the beginning of my business doing is everybody come in, cool, and then you would get to the sales call and I'd be like, no thank you. That's not true anymore.

Susan Boles:

Like all of the people that come in through my content, through my network, they're all very values aligned and I think that's because I'm transparent about my values. I'm transparent about, you know, how I approach things. And the hustle bros are very repelled by what I'm talking about.

Natalia Sanyal:

Exactly. Yes. I would say that that's been the most awesome, impact of this switch to anti press marketing is I no longer have to deal with that. And the moment that I decided I was gonna do this was because I had my last interaction with one of those companies where I, like, was nauseous. I should've after that sales call, I was like, okay.

Natalia Sanyal:

You know what? I never want to have a sales call like that at the end where I am, like, feeling super offended, triggered, and, like, disgusted. So leading to values is wonderful. You don't have to deal with that anymore.

Susan Boles:

I am a big believer that there are providers out there who are a good match for everyone. Getting the people who are values aligned with me into my world and pushing away the people who I just will always feel uncomfortable working with them. It's gonna stress me out. It's gonna stress them out. It's just not a good fit.

Susan Boles:

I think is one of the most impactful parts, at least that I have found of leading leading with your values, not just that it makes your business feel calmer and better to just exist in. We're gonna take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, but when we come back, Natalia and I are going to get into deconstructing urgency as both a marketing tactic and as an ethos in our own businesses. And she's gonna take us inside a pretty interesting tactic that she used in a recent launch that I have termed maybe reverse urgency. In general, have you found that the process of testing out these anti oppressive ideas and techniques require you to separate from the idea of urgency or, like, actively work on detaching from urgency. Just being okay with being a little bit more patient about results.

Natalia Sanyal:

Oh, yeah.

Susan Boles:

Like, and everything just has to go a little bit slower and that's that's the real world thing. Like, even the fast tactic stuff actually take a long time to pay off. For me, like, the unlearning the urgency piece has been such a huge part of that. I feel like people are surprised at my perspective on urgency often.

Natalia Sanyal:

I totally agree with you, and I am very in line with, like, taking the slow route to growth versus, like, the fast one where you sacrifice your values and your health in the process. But at the same time, I think there is a way to use urgency in a way that is, like, actually in line with the truth. So, for example, I will release an offer, and it's a program, and I've got 20 spots. And that is the truth. 20 spots is a group program.

Natalia Sanyal:

I do not have any more spots other than 20. I am going to include that fact in my marketing materials. And psychologically, people will see that, like, okay. There's a limit to this, and I wanna be one of the 20 people. Some people will say, like, oh, but isn't that psychological manipulation?

Natalia Sanyal:

Personally, I don't think so because it is, like, a 100% real. It's reflecting my capacity, and I am simply telling you the truth. I've got 20 slots left. Another one is, like, a time urgency thing where the offer is only available for a certain amount of time. I've got a subscription service, and Indevit is not always open.

Natalia Sanyal:

And I had done that, and I know that, like, if I close it, that means I'm also not making money in that period of time. So it's not like I am using urgency in a way that is completely fake. You know, there's real urgency, and then there's fake urgency. The doors are open for, like, say, a week. Before that, people who are following me and are on my mailing list are well aware that I have this program.

Natalia Sanyal:

It is also a very well ticket offer. So it's like considering all of those different layers and then making that decision of, like, it's okay for me to say that we've got a limited time to join this thing. That's technically urgency, but it is rooted in the truth.

Susan Boles:

I'm not even sure that that necessarily counts as urgency. I think it counts as transparency.

Natalia Sanyal:

Like Yeah.

Susan Boles:

You have this many spots. That's how many spots there are. If you want one, you know, there's 4 left. You could have one of them or they could go to somebody else. I'm just giving you the information you need to be able to time your decision.

Susan Boles:

I think there's actually another interesting aspect to this, which was what you did when you launched momentum which is that subscription offer you were mentioning. So for context for the listeners, this is a subscription offer for LinkedIn templates. Basically the idea is that you get 3 prompts per week with explanations about how to apply them along with a weekly co working session for folks to use to, write the content together. So it's a $15 a month subscription, so low ticket offer here that's actually not evergreen, you open it up and close it periodically. But when you launched it, you basically created a waiting list.

Susan Boles:

You sent out an email to your subscribers saying that this is something that you wanted to build and sell but that you weren't going to do it until there were 300 people on the waiting list which I feel like is almost reverse urgency that ended up having a way bigger impact I think than a traditional marketing campaign that leans into urgency. So as part of this launch campaign periodically you would remind your audience that you were selling this thing and ask them to join the wait list and you told folks how many people were on the waiting list at the time you did the update so they could see like tracking in real time what was actually happening. And you were very explicit about like, hey, I'm not launching this until there's enough people interested in this thing to make it worth my time Which I thought was a really interesting perspective because so frequently I think as entrepreneurs we we build the thing and then we sell the thing. Even though this wasn't like a a big like it it didn't feel like a big launch. It didn't it was just like, hey, this is the thing I wanna try but I'm not doing anything about it until it's enough to be sustainable.

Susan Boles:

I really, really responded to that and thought it was really interesting because it was kind of unusual. You know, there's we do pre orders which I guess this technically was, but it didn't really feel like that. It felt like kind of radical transparency in terms of like, I wanna try this thing and I'm also not doing it unless it is sustainable.

Natalia Sanyal:

That was the first time I did that, where I told people, like, hey. I I wanna create this thing for you, but I'm not gonna do it unless I have a certain amount of people on the wait list. I never done that before. It's so nerve wracking on a couple levels. One of the things I was worried about is I told people I needed 300 people on the wait list.

Natalia Sanyal:

Like, when you communicate your capacity, you know, you can be like, I've got 5 spots left. I've got 20 spots, whatever. I've done a lot, like, smaller numbers. 40 was the max capacity before whenever I launched something. So 300 felt like, oh my gosh.

Natalia Sanyal:

This is a huge number. How long is it to to get there? I had no idea, But let's just see how this goes. And at first, it feels like an internal thing where I was like, okay. I was mapping out my offer.

Natalia Sanyal:

I'm like, it's for me and Dina's. I really I need 3 other people to wait list, and then I'm probably gonna expect, like, a 100 people to actually sign up. So that was my plan. I'm like, maybe I don't know. Just tell people that.

Natalia Sanyal:

So I decided to communicate that, and I got such support from people that I was like, okay. This is gonna be, like, by name message, actually, because people are responding so well to it. I just started updating people on, like, how the people were on the wait list, and people started rallying behind it and, like, tell a lot of people that need to get to the 300 people.

Susan Boles:

It felt so fun that every time you sent out an update, I'm like, come on, people. I want the thing. Give it to me.

Natalia Sanyal:

You sign up. Oh, totally. I had no idea that was gonna happen. So that was a very fun learning to see the impact of of that transparency was awesome. I am definitely going to repeat that.

Natalia Sanyal:

It works. It feels like a business risk, but it actually is the total opposite. It was such a great it was such a great turnout at the end. I got 300 people, and then, how long did they take me? I started, towards the end of May, and then actually, July 19th, I reached 300, and I bought a 180 people who signed up and paid.

Susan Boles:

That's a pretty good conversion rate.

Natalia Sanyal:

It was a break. It was great. It was a great conversion rate. So lots of learnings, and I did it really scrappy. I truly did not build the thing.

Natalia Sanyal:

And I am such a recovering perfectionist. It's so frustrating because I want to. I feel a lot more secure when I have the thing built up in my head. Like, business wise, does not make sense to build the thing and then sell it. So I don't allow myself and I think it was, like, literally, like, at least once we I put myself down to be, like, do not map it out.

Natalia Sanyal:

Didn't talk. Like, start creating all the things, not until you have 300. So, yeah, I think, like, just being more open about us being human beings. Like, I don't feel like we let ourselves be human. As entrepreneurs, we feel like we have to be it's, like, super professional.

Natalia Sanyal:

We have it all together. All our ducks in a row, and everything is ready. Whereas, like, I think people respond really well to just the opposite.

Susan Boles:

I am much more likely to buy a thing the first time somebody's doing it than I am to do it when they've offered it. You know, once it's productized and it's it's like I would much rather go through the messy version where, I mean, you know, I geek out about building services.

Natalia Sanyal:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Boles:

Being able to see the front end and see somebody experiment, see what's working, see what's not, from the inside is always so much more intriguing for me than I'm not likely to buy something when it's the 15th cohort or whatever it is. It has been interesting because as I'm talking to other people, I am finding, the people I hang out with online mostly that they're the same. I think there is a camp of people who are like, I don't wanna do it until it's been validated and it's real and it's the community building aspect of being in somebody's first iteration or in somebody's it is so much more intimate. It's it does build more cohesive communities, I think, than if you're doing ship 30 on the 89th iteration or whatever it is at this point.

Natalia Sanyal:

That is making sense because, you know, like, doing beta version, selling the beta version is such a becoming a popular day. And I think it's becoming popular because people are realizing that, like, it's fun to be the first person

Susan Boles:

It totally is. To try. I also think, you know, a lot of the, like, programs or courses or communities that I do, part of the reason I'm doing it is for access to the person doing it. Right? Like, I wanna build a connection and a genuine relationship to that person and that always is true in a beta.

Susan Boles:

Right? Like, the first time they do it, they are always present, they're always engaged, they're committed, they're excited about it. But if you're doing, you know, the 15th cohort, they have a team, You're never gonna see them. They're not participating. They have scaled this thing to the point where it's the access is no longer part of the value.

Susan Boles:

The value has to entirely be on how effective their program transformation is. And I don't have a lot of experiences where the program itself is where I got the value. Mostly it's the people in the program that were going through the thing together or whatever.

Natalia Sanyal:

Yeah. Yeah. Part of me kinda thinks that truth. But it's true.

Susan Boles:

I also agree as somebody who would like to Yeah. You know, offer something and scale it and, you know, be the person delivering it. Delivering it. I agree and I think it'll be really interesting to see kind of what happens with courses and programs and memberships. Now that they're sort of on the way out, I think there is an opportunity for something interesting and innovative to deliver that transformation that isn't that.

Susan Boles:

And I think it's it's gonna ultimately end up being something a little bit more human.

Natalia Sanyal:

Yeah. I am constantly trying to figure out what is the thing that I could offer that, like, works with my brain and energy levels. And it's hard because people obviously, ideally, think ideally, it's 1 on one time with you that people want if you put, like, the finances inside. And, I also have, like, limited energetic capacity. So trying to figure out how to balance those 2 things is a fun challenge that I I I like to revisit, like, every time I launch something again or launch something new, like, with momentum, that the the whole premise was like, okay.

Natalia Sanyal:

What can you do that's, like, super easy that people have been asking you for, but does it require, like, a lot of your energy? And Numenta was the answer to that because there is still, like, co working sessions where we are on the call together for 90 minutes, but it's not coaching fault. I'm also using the time to, work on my stuff and, like, I feel like I make community with people. We take a break together halfway through and do something fun. That feels really sustainable for me.

Susan Boles:

It's an interesting balancing between, like, what kind of service or offering is sustainable for the person making the offering and how does that translate into creating the transformation that you are trying to create or help other people create and trying to figure out how to navigate and like meld those 2 things, I think is the real trick. I'm super interested to see where folks take it. Like I think momentum is a really good example of something that is, you know, it's not a course, it's not a community necessarily, it's not really a membership, it's not like it's not any of those things and yet still really effectively delivers a transformation in a way that is genuinely sustainable for you even when you are at very low energy because it's something you can batch stuff if you have a good week. You can not do stuff if you have a bad week. Like

Natalia Sanyal:

Uh-huh. Yeah. And, you know, I have to be patient with it because it's $15 a month, and I don't have thousands of statuses of people in it. So it's gonna be, like, a slowly grow kind of offer, and I have to be okay with that. And in the meantime, doing other things where I'm constantly asking myself, like, okay.

Natalia Sanyal:

How can I, like, make this year for myself while still, like, creating that value that people need?

Susan Boles:

One of the most difficult things about committing to engineering a calmer business is realizing that a lot of the time you have to actively fight the default and do things in a way that work for you even if that looks weird or unconventional from the outside. The default business tactics and strategies, they aren't designed for the benefit of real people. They're designed for the benefit of capitalism. So they rarely serve to create care or build sustainable practices into a business. When it comes to considering aligning your actions with your values, this is something that's really important not to forget.

Susan Boles:

Leaning into operating from that lens of care and considering what really works for you and your business. Reducing urgency in your business is something that feels really hard because everything in the business world is designed to be urgent, to move fast. As entrepreneurs, we are constantly feeling like we're behind on absolutely everything. So, actively working on reducing urgency might be one of the more challenging aspects of building a calmer business because it goes against everything we're taught that business is supposed to be. But you can start small.

Susan Boles:

Take one tiny action. Start with removing one deadline that's on your plate right now. Most deadlines in our business are totally made up by us. We are the ones who decided what that deadline was in the first place. So try removing one and then maybe remove another one.

Susan Boles:

If you can reserve deadlines for when they're real and treat all the rest of them as a general guideline or a tentative plan but not a hard date. That allows you to build in a little bit more margin, a little bit more flexibility, and it helps reduce urgency so it's just a little bit calmer. Another small way to reduce urgency is to actively work to have fewer client emergencies. Maybe you can start tracking how often this happens and see why each emergency happened and then you can go back to and look at that data and see if there are some systems or some boundaries or maybe some communication that you can put in place to reduce those emergencies to 0 or close to it. The more you can reduce urgency in different areas of your business, the more you can lean into a slower, more sustainable path to growth, the calmer your business will be.

Susan Boles:

The way you engineer calm into your business is taking it one tiny step at a time. Pick one element of the calmer framework or listen to one episode of this mini series. And then focus on building that element into your business. And then, pick another one. Eventually those tiny actions turn into a big snowball and you end up with a calm, sustainable business with comfortable margins, efficient systems, and lots of rest.

Susan Boles:

Thank you so much to everyone who supports Beyond Margins. If you are a listener, a sponsor, or a partner of any kind, I really couldn't do this show without you. You can support this show by leaving a rating or a review. It really does help new listeners hit play with more confidence. And you can support our sponsors by using the link in your show notes.

Susan Boles:

All of this helps me keep this independent podcast going and growing. Thank you for listening, and until next time, stay calm.