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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson (00:01.061)
I can just edit it out so it's a fairly natural start. Yeah, beautiful. I was taking a couple of notes as I said to you before I sat down as to what I wanted to speak to you about, but I wrote down a couple of words that I thought summarized you as an athlete really well. I wrote down patient, persistent, and consistent. And I thought, I know persistent and consistent are relatively, fairly close to being on the same page. But...
Mark McCallum (00:03.694)
certainly.
Tyson (00:29.421)
I feel as though there's enough of a differentiation to be able to justify each of those words. And it's interesting for everyone listening to this podcast. You had a history in the sport back when you were about 17 or 18. And you took a few years off, which I'll let you talk about what took place in the gap there. Yeah.
Mark McCallum (00:45.506)
Yeah, look, so I was going to say, yes, I am now those things. But if you'd saw me 18 months ago, I wouldn't have been described like that. And I'll kind of describe my running journey, and you'll get a clear view that wasn't me a few years back. So yeah, I think I must have had a bit of talent. I was in a small country town. There was a high school cross country, which I participated in.
And there was a local guy, Merv Dennis, who remains a friend today, who was a keen runner. So we're talking like early eighties, you know, 79, 80. And Merv, I don't really recall how it happened, but he had a son, Dennis, who was also a runner. And he kind of got to know each other. And he said, oh, how about I actually do some training for a track season? Because I never ran a bit of cross country. And so he picked up Arthur Liddiard, the Liddiard way. And I still have my original copy from back in the year.
the 80s and he used that to inform our training and so I reckon I had probably had two years running track and I was kind of trying to count the number of actual 1,500 races I did nothing I never ran for 1,500 races actually raced because there was no one in Lincoln to race against you know I would go out there and run and I'd leave everyone behind
So, you know, I got the high school, the medal for the sports day because I was, you know, I must have had a bit of talent. So my fifth race ended up being at the Australian, or schools, school board champions for in the under 17s, I think I was 17. I was the under 18s and I was 17. And I managed to run a 404 high, which I then...
got into university and subsequently leaving a small country town and ending up in the big smoke. I, and not maybe having a support network, not knowing anyone there. I effectively just drifted away from competitive running. Now, since then I ended up joining the air force, you know, had a very full and productive career, but remained a runner. You know, I was episodic, sporadic. I pretty much just would go out and run for fitness. I kind of dabbled in a couple of triathlons for a while there.
Mark McCallum (02:48.914)
And then it was probably around 2010. I crewed for a young guy who was a pilot in the squadron, which I was flying at. I got a house in the Blue Mountains. And back then, it was a North Face 100. Used to run right in front of my house up in the Blue Mountains. And this young guy said he was going up to run this event. His wife could only stay for the early part of the event. So I said, I'll crew you for the rest of it. Which really gave me a taste of the ultra scene, seeing what these people were doing.
So I thought, okay, I'm gonna run an ultra. So I started, you know, I'd always kind of run a couple of days a week, you know, just around the base, the Air Force base, go to the gym. And I started training for this ultra and I couldn't get past 32 Ks without significant knee pain. I was like, you know, this is where my journey about learning about running really started. It was like, okay, what the hell is going on here? And there was a young guy, also a pilot, who wasn't really known for his fitness. And I chatted to him one day, Nubsie, how you going, mate? Yeah, good, I'm taking up running.
going, what you're running? And he goes, yeah, I am. I said, well, what got you into that? He said, I read this book, Born to Run by Chris McDewall. I thought, oh, really? So I read this and it really kind of started me on this journey about running and us as runners. So I actually went barefoot for 18 months and I actually had a successful experience with it. You know, I accepted that, okay, there's gonna be some significant changes to my physiology here. I'm gonna have to go way backwards before I go forwards.
So I kind of threw away my running shoes and I started just walking barefoot. I had a dog taken for an hour walk. I started walking barefoot, introduced running into it and I kind of got up to, I was doing 15K trail runs through the Blue Mountains barefoot and really enjoying it. But of course you can't do that for 100K, but that led me to running my first 100K in 2011. So since then, I think I've completed.
12, I think 1200K events. And, but I've always again, you know, being busy at work and you sign up to the event and it's like, oh crap, three months away, I've got to run 100K or sometimes it's eight weeks away, I've got to run 100K. So then kind of ramp up the mileage, have a few niggles, get out there, run the event and then go back into the same cycle where, you know, you're kind of episodic, you're running every now and then and not doing consistently.
Mark McCallum (05:14.358)
But during that time, it's always been a journey of, you know, trying to gain knowledge about running and running, running gait and efficiency and fitness, but not really, I guess, persistent or consistent enough for it to, you know, really, I think, can really deliver good outcomes. So recently I've retired, recently retired and I thought, okay, now I've actually got the time to devote to what I love, which is running.
And, but that in itself then started to reveal a number of things as you're aware of, you know, our relationship from a coach and an athlete perspective. I'm starting to find what's called system limitations. You know, you kind of change things, you discover a new limitation, you work on that. It's kind of like a theory of constraint. You find the next constraint, you deal with it, and then you move on to the next constraint. But for the last, probably I've had a great 60 days, you know, consistency.
And as you're aware, I've kind of been ticking off the miles. We've stepped back in intensity. We're now kind of just reintroducing that, which I really felt I needed to, because I'm 60 years old. I know I've got a limited time for things such as muscle mass, fast twitch timer. Sacripenia is a real issue for older athletes. So trying to constantly maintain touch a bit of strength and I guess do the, sorry, touch a bit of speed.
and do the strength work is really important to me at the moment.
Tyson (06:40.053)
Yeah, it's part of the reason I was excited to get you on the podcast, because I think so much of what you just spoke about are lessons that are not only valuable reminders to ourselves and to myself, but to so many runners out there, I think the most common complaint or the most common concern or question that I get here at Relaxed Running is around consistency. How can I develop a more consistent routine? And I mean, so many of the factors that you just touched on a part of the puzzle, but I think you've got yourself to a point. And
part of what I enjoy so much about our weekly phone calls is just a reflection on what's working and what we need to adjust in order to maintain that consistency. And I think early in the piece, I'm trying to remember the exact date we started working together officially. It must be seven or eight months. I can't remember if it was a birthday or a New Year's gift to yourself. Ha ha.
Mark McCallum (07:28.014)
Yeah, no, I think you're right. It was, when you kind of put the call out for, it was, I think, probably two thirds of the way through last year. I think we are around about there, probably about seven months. So yeah, it was about mid last year. And I reached out to you and said, Oh, I wouldn't mind a bit of running analysis. And in fact, that probably.
that YouTube video could be an anchor of victory where we started our coaching relationship as well. Cause that experience I had with you, where you identified a few things I was doing with my, my gate and how I run was such a positive experience. I then reached out to you and I said, look, could you possibly take me on and be my coach?
Tyson (08:07.809)
It was, it was good. It was one of those videos that I posted and it's a video that I was very happy to post because it's one of those ones that you look at a bit of a transformation. You like that and you go, Oh my gosh, something dramatic changed. But I think so much of the credit in, um, what took place was, you know, with your approach to it. And it was really interesting because what I've started to really appreciate about your approach to running is not only the things I just mentioned, which I would love to touch on a little bit more, cause I think so much can be drawn out of your story.
as to how you've had such a consistent last few months, especially, or 60 days, as you mentioned. But for lack of a better term, what would I say? You're very interested in the technical aspect of running, which is something that I don't think a lot of runners can say. I mean, I've worked with a number of athletes and even beyond just working with athletes, just being around runners for years. The technique element of running is so often overlooked.
And it frustrates me because obviously when you're looking at running, you look at any elite athlete, men, women from a hundred meters to the marathon. There seems to be without exception, some form of running efficiency, which even an untrained eye can look at and go, okay, something is taking place there. That looks good running. It's not supposed to be this easy or look this easy. And I don't know why it's so overlooked, perhaps just because the interest in training and nutrition.
footwear and whatever else is more of an exciting prospect and maybe easier to change immediately than the technical side. But I mean, I've pivoted here a little bit. We can go into technique and then I'll take a step back to what I was going to ask you about, but it seems as though it's a part of your nature like that. Um, that technical aspect, you seem to love to dig into the details of whether it's heart rate or stats or gate or the way you're holding yourself when you're running or the food that you're eating.
Do you just want to talk about what it was that actually got you even interested in looking at your running efficiency to start with?
Mark McCallum (10:10.33)
I guess it was probably initially a bit of frustration because as of course youth has something to do with it. You know, I used to be able to run so fast, so easily. And then when I was returning to it, you know, obviously age was a factor. And I remember actually, I remember when I was training for my first ultra made a mind Chris McBurney, who we've done a couple with since. I remember talking to him going, you know,
Kinda this is weird when I run, I feel like I'm a thunderbird puppet. Everything's happening out the front, you know, it kinda just didn't feel right. And so it was kind of this, and I am a dyed in the wool nerd. So I love science, I love, you know.
technology, I love understanding why things work or how things work or why things are. So I think that's just in my nature to do that anyhow. I'm one of these people that if you get an interest, I am all in. I'm going to know every little detail about whatever I'm interested in at the time and I'll pursue skills and knowledge and stuff like that. But with running though, it's persistent. It's one of those things, it's not just a fleeting interest, it is a love. And of course, it's an experiment of one. It was interesting
about the shoes and that. I think there is an industry around running and I have explored a lot of how to improve your running. And I've come to the realization, I'm sure we'll get to him soon, but Lawrence Van Lingen, who is, I think I've actually found the well. I found kind of that where the...
the elixir comes from now. Because I've been dealing with what you'd be calling outcome cues. You know, you need to land on your forefoot, you need to land on your midfoot, your cadence needs to be higher, you know, all this type of stuff. But it never really got to the why or the how. And I feel like, I guess, with the work that Lawrence Van Lingen has done, and I'm surprised he's not.
Mark McCallum (12:04.118)
better well known to tell you the truth. You know, I've been digging into this for about a decade now and I came across him and I'm like, how have I heard of this guy? So that's, I guess, it's the, the motivation is because it's something I love. And I think for everyone, the autumn is an experiment of one. You know, you've got to work what works for you from an intensity, you know, a process, all our physiology is different. So there is that, you know, the data actually informs me about my.
about myself. And look, and I know there's always this argument about do you follow the data or do you follow how you feel? I think it's both, you know, I always wake up in the morning and go, how do I feel? And then out of curiosity, I kind of have a look at the data and the data is great for those long trends. And I know the I've just had a mental blank. The guy who's doing his five year project to
Tyson (12:57.241)
Not Gordo Burn. Yeah.
Mark McCallum (12:58.282)
Yeah, Gordo Byrne, you know, you'll get a Gordo Byrne, he was looking for those long, those long trends and that's kind of what I look for as well. So I guess that's the motivation for, you know, how I've taken this approach to the knowledge. And I think it comes down to, and it's an intrinsic motivation, you know, it's the fact that I love running, I wanna be good at it. I don't care about how I look, I don't care about what people think about me. It's always been an intrinsic motivation that keeps me coming back to it.
Tyson (13:11.371)
Yeah.
Tyson (13:27.369)
Yeah, it's interesting. I've, you got me onto Lawrence van Lingen and I've gone down the rabbit hole a little bit and what I find interesting is it's, he comes at it from such a different perspective, as you say, like there was a lot of outcome cues that, that you were offered that you'd been working with, but his philosophy around running technique goes so much deeper. It really is just a, almost a philosophy about life. And I had to laugh because one of the first things that I heard him say was that he thinks one of the best running books ever written was a
the Creative Act, I think it is by Rick Rubin, which was funny because I just listened to the audio book and I listened to that book with the intention of just developing the art of my comedy a little bit and seeing if he had any thoughts around that. And I had to laugh because I was like, it is amazing how well that message seems to pass through everything that we do, like any, whether it's a creative act or whether it's a physical act or the combination of the two. But what I laughed at when I heard that was I thought I couldn't imagine a bloke.
further to the opposite side of the spectrum of how I perceived you. I saw you as very data, very fact, very, just give me the numbers, and then I him speak about it, and it's a little more whimsical. There's a little bit more, there's a little bit more, not airy-fairy, because that's unfair, but you know what I mean when I say that? Like he comes at it from a very different perspective, which I find refreshing, but was surprised that connected so well with you. I mean, I love it, so I can see the attraction.
Mark McCallum (14:40.727)
Yeah.
Mark McCallum (14:49.202)
And I guess, you know, I, I tried it, you know, I jumped in and started doing stuff. Um, and it kind of was also when you first, um, pointed out some aspects of my running gait, um, cause I had always kind of, and I think I used to, I felt like I was muscling my way over the ground and it was probably a byproduct of, um, the outcome queuing, but also I guess my contact with the physio. Uh, so it was.
Just over probably 18 months ago now, I had my very first physio appointment, which I guess, you know, for a run for 40 odd years is probably a pretty good thing, but I was probably ignoring a bunch of issues that I should have seen a physio with earlier. But I was doing an event with Chris McBurnie, this mate of mine, the Wonderland Trail Run. And I got 20K into it and I had to pull the plug. And it was like, no, because...
you know, it's down near Hool's Gap, you know what that terrain's like. It's pretty horrendous. But I was getting, it turned out to be patellar tendinopathy. And so I then went to the physio and I guess it was probably a lack of understanding about maybe what the physios are trying to achieve with you, but it was like, hey, you need to be stronger here, you know, I basically couldn't balance on my right leg.
And so something had happened over it. And I think it was basically, I'd been protecting my right knee where I'd been having chronic pain, which always felt like it was what limited what I achieved with my running, was basically how much could my right knee take. And so Dave Halpen here in Canberra, who I really do like working with, a great guy, and also a very good runner, he said, yeah, look, you've got these problems. We need to basically connect those muscles back to your brain stem so you can control that leg,
appointment on Wednesday and I've come so far in the 18 months I've been working with him that's been very worthwhile but it was always about strength you know and kind of getting stronger.
Mark McCallum (16:43.506)
And I think, and I don't know who says it, I think Paul McKellen, the balance runner says it, that the only thing that could change movement is movement. And it was when you spoke about being relaxed and where I started to feel like I was actually flying over the ground. And maybe the dynamic system that the body is was being actually constrained by my preconception of what the solution was, which was about being stronger, and certain muscles muscling my way across the ground. But once I actually started to relax
in the body, the body just started to kind of flow. And I think I said to you that, you know, that the way that dynamic system was kind of being held back by a swamp of tension, you know, muscular tension that I was holding as I was trying to be stronger in certain parts of my body. And actually, you know, and this is one thing that Lawrence van Lingen gets you to do in his movement patterning, is you spend more time relaxed than you do tensing anything at all.
and a lot of the techniques he used, it's about the body relaxing and allow it to be a dynamic system as you move forward about capturing and storing that energy and then releasing it as you run, which does when it works leads to an incredible state of flow physically and mentally.
Tyson (18:00.205)
Yeah, I'm often surprised it doesn't matter what sport I look at. And I mentioned this briefly with reference to just the runners, but you look at an athlete like Muhammad Ali or a Tiger Woods or a, um, you know, a Michael Jordan, there is a Scott Pendlebury, if you're a football fan, there's a certain element of ease that these movements are done with. And it constantly surprises me because often when we're told that we want, when we're thinking we want to run faster, like that first approach.
is almost that muscle your way through it. I've just got to work a little bit harder. Um, there's a guy that I like, and I'm not that into a lot of airy fairy stuff a lot of the time, but I'll do a yoga class online with a bloke called, uh, Travis Elliot. And one of the things that I love that he says, and I actually apply this to my running, especially as I'm getting back into some more intense or faster sessions, I should say, is he goes, everyone's obsessed with trying hard, but no one's interested in trying easy.
And so whenever I'm working, whenever I'm working hard, when I'm out there running or when I'm trying to relate this message to an athlete I'm working with, this idea of trying easy seems to encapsulate it because it's like, yeah, sure, you can, you can get yourself technically right, but then if you're still trying to muscle your way through it and you're carrying tension, even subtly in any part of your body, it's not going to feel as easy as what it could. If you learn to do what you did, identify the tension, start to release it, and then take practical cues. I mean, you're a real, um,
a real student of the sport, which is obviously working in your favor as well, as you said, like between me and the balance runner and Lawrence van Lingen, I mean, you don't just settle for one philosophy and go, okay, this person's got it. They know it's like, no, like let's see what's on the other side of the fence. And I love that because I sort of really relates to my approach to running. And it's interesting, actually, this is a bit of a tangent, but I've had a lot of people email in, um, like amazing amount of people frustrated about the, the interview that I did with Phil Maffetone the other day.
because obviously, I mean, he's relatively controversial when you think about what he's saying. Um, you know, your body's fat-fueled for ultra endurance is his message. And you don't really need to do too much anaerobic work if you're a marathon runner, so I can, I have no trouble seeing what the criticism is, but at the same time, I love the opportunity to sit down to a person like that who's developed a massive following and just hear thoughts. And I think there's nothing, nothing to be afraid of with hearing thoughts from the other side of the fence, like to be able to sit down and go, okay, well.
Tyson (20:22.981)
Thank you, but like I completely disagree. And here's why it's a little bit of an opportunity just to sharpen the knowledge you already have by strengthening it or eliminating it. So I'm really open to the idea, but yeah, it was sort of blew my mind how many people were, my email inbox was just filled with people quite angry about nothing. Wow, it's amazing, particularly in reference to the fat-fueled endurance running, which I mean, I can see the criticism for myself. I use carbs to,
load for endurance sports, but I was really interested to hear from the other side of the fence. But anyway, I say all that to say it's fascinating to see just the different perspectives that people bring to the table on what so many of us would believe or probably even have the evidence to prove is fairly established scientifically.
Mark McCallum (21:12.854)
So, you know, and I guess, you know, Phil Maffetone, I guess he was a bit of a, you know, he was blazing a trail because he got part of it exactly right. You know, one of the critiques I've had, I've read about the math method is it's kind of reductionist.
He says, okay, well, you're an aerobic athlete, so we just need to look after the aerobic system. But really, you know, your metabolic systems are operating on a spectrum. They're all operating to different degrees when you are running. But he did get it exactly right, you know. That is pretty much the 80% of the 80-20 principle. And I think it's Inigo Mahika, who basically with a lot of cycling, you know, did a lot of the zone two work and identified the importance of that.
And now Steven Seiler, who I've kind of been digging into lately with his, and he didn't invent it, he observed it. He basically just, you know, as a sports scientist, looked at the elite athletes and what was their distribution of intensity. And regardless, if it was an endurance sport, it was an 80-20s where all the, you know, the elite athletes and their coaches had arrived at what actually works.
So yeah, it's and I'm pretty much I'm reading the 80 20 now by Matt Fitzgerald. So he's written some great books, but I'm currently reading that, which is which I'm sure we'll have some conversations once I've finished as well, guys, about how do we apply that to me? So for instance, intervals Wednesday, which gave me a 90 minute rest, I pushed that out to two minutes because Stephen Syler and for those in what is interesting altruism, I can highly recommend.
Tyson (22:27.101)
Awesome.
Mark McCallum (22:49.442)
the Science of Ultra podcast by Dr. Bearden. Unfortunately, he stopped doing episodes now, but there's a huge body of work there where he's ultra marathoner and he actually had Steven Seiler as one of his guests. And he's, they were talking about, well, what about the rest period? How is it important? And for endurance athletes, basically they found, he found that, and they did some trials on this.
Going an extra 30 seconds has no detriment, but significant benefits. You actually get better consistency, speed consistency in the fast part of your intervals just by giving yourself that extra 30 seconds. So I gave myself an extra 30 seconds on Wednesday.
Tyson (23:29.573)
Awesome. I love it. Well, this is one thing I always say as well, like consider the training program written in pencil. And actually that goes back to, that goes back to one of the things that you said before I hit record, um, which, which I think it's got a lot to do with the consistency of being able to develop and is one thing that I, I wish I could just get in a tablet form and give to every athlete that I work with and that is just using not only with recovery, like whether it's due to fatigue or due to something you're wanting to trial, but the idea of actually giving yourself.
Mark McCallum (23:35.658)
Yeah.
Tyson (23:59.429)
the, the okay to take a day off or to adjust the intensity, the volume of the run based on how your body's feeling. And you said something to me, which I mean, makes so much sense practically, but emotionally, a lot of athletes have trouble saying, I'm going to actually offer myself an easier day, despite the fact that something a little bit more intense has been laid down. And I mean, this kind of started or my first, don't mind me, I'm trying to shoot a fly here, I just couldn't get him out of my office and he keeps coming into, he's desperate to be on the show. Um,
Mark McCallum (24:28.182)
Thank you.
Tyson (24:29.469)
One of the things that probably highlighted this early in our relationship together was when we'd started to introduce a little more speed work into the session and that knee started to flare up a little bit. And we said, okay, well, how do you feel about potentially backing off some of the intensity? And despite the fact that it feels good to get out there and try and do it, you were wise enough to go, no, I'm actually going to back this off for the time being. And as a result, you've been able to lay down some...
really consistent running yet, especially over the last 60 days, but even longer than that. So perhaps you laid the foundation of where you got the ability to do that at the start of the show. But I mean, if you wanted to talk to that a little bit, it'd be really interesting because one thing that I think a lot of athletes really struggle with is doing less than what's being programmed.
Mark McCallum (25:15.102)
Yeah, and I think that probably came from, you know, you retire. I wasn't quite 60 yet, but I knew that milestone was coming. And so it was like, well, how do I do this for the rest of my life?
Whereas before there were other things in your life, I had a very busy job, I had a lot of responsibilities, and that sometimes would dominate my time. Now I had a lot more ownership of my time, and I made some choices about, what am I going to do with it? And the one thing is I'm going to now be dedicated to my love of running. And it's like, okay, well, how do I actually now, and I guess having that opportunity gave me the opportunity to look at running differently as well.
Tyson (26:01.191)
Hmm.
Mark McCallum (26:01.66)
And we spoke about in the past, the Steve Monaghetty and his phone book analogy, where you basically know one workout. You know, if each page in that phone book is a workout or a running session, that's when you stack them up real thick that you actually get to be a resilient, robust and capable athlete. And so therefore it's now about, stacking up pages in a phone book. And so...
And I kind of come to the conclusion, and I'm sure I probably heard someone else say this, is the purpose of today's training is so I can do tomorrow's training. And therefore that's then iterative. So I'm also.
do mathematics. So there's an iteration. The purpose of today's training is a bit like N plus one for cyclists and bikes, which is my wife's philosophy in life. It's N plus one, you know, N is the number of training sessions. And you're always N plus one is the most important training session, which is that next one. And so I guess that was where, you know, I thought, okay, I've got to back this off. If I first of all, you know, I need to make myself stronger. I realized that I'd probably be neglecting the strength work a little bit.
And so therefore that give me the opportunity to do the strength work and then just lay down, lay down a decent face, which everything else then comes from. And also, you know, the, and I guess I've effectively been doing math for, you know, probably the last eight weeks or so. And that lower intensity.
You kind of then I know what easy feels like. It allows you to back it up day after day after day. And so your 80-20 is effectively math with a bit of speed sprinkled in.
Tyson (27:37.757)
Hmm.
Tyson (27:42.057)
Yeah. Yeah, it's really is. I was actually going to say before when you mentioned reading the 80-20 principle, I'll look at the way that we structure your training program. And I think we're very close to it. Like obviously we've started over the last three or four weeks to introduce some lighter tempo runs and some more, I would say more intense just based because it's got the hills in the title, but some faster hill running for a variety of reasons, but we're in an interesting period for you. So for everyone listening, you are.
off the top of my head, I want to say seven, six or seven weeks away from the Canberra 10K.
Mark McCallum (28:17.029)
Yeah, I think we're six weeks now, six weeks.
Tyson (28:19.733)
and 11 weeks out from... What, I've written it down, but...
Mark McCallum (28:23.43)
Nah, we're about, yeah, probably 11 or 12 weeks away from 100K, UTA 100.
Tyson (28:31.421)
which is a really fun little place to be. And I think it's fun based on the fact you look at a 10K and you go, okay, well, that's relatively fast. And you look at a hundred and you go, well, that seems like a different form of training. And so the project at the moment has been like, we obviously wanna have a good crack at the 10K, but I would say if we zoomed out a little bit, and I mean, don't let me speak for you, I'd be keen to know what your main priority is. But in my mind, the 10K is another stepping stone.
an important stepping stone towards the big 100 in 11 weeks' time.
Mark McCallum (29:05.854)
Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting because, uh, when I, before I, you know, we started working with you, I kind of cobbled together program and I was going out there smashing a bit of speed work. Um, and I hadn't, I was scared of sprinting. I reckon I probably spent 35 years afraid of running fast, you know, and I kind of just went out there and you sat in your comfort zone.
you know, you're kind of in there, probably zone two, pushing up to zone three occasionally, which meant that you were never running really, really fast. And I guess, you know, the issues I had with my knee, but I actually started to do strides and I found I actually still have a turn of speed. You know, I actually can still run quite quick when I get out there and do it. But of course I was running in a way that was just leading to further injury.
because I was still, and I guess to get technical about it, I worked out that I've got this anterior bias in my right leg. So what I'd been doing because of the knee plane, I was constantly trying to protect it. My right hip was collapsing, which my quads were then loading across the knee. And it was always interesting because when I was doing some isometric work in the gym, set up with the left leg, the left leg is grounded, you know, it's basically formed a strut between kind of my hip and the ground, but my right leg would always
kind of the hip would collapse at the idea of actually putting load on that leg. And I'd have to cognitively position my leg in a way to take load. And working with Dave, the physio, kind of doing Pogo's on the left leg. You know, I've got a decent amount of pop, none on the right leg, absolutely. And, but now that I've, you know, running.
Tyson (30:37.437)
Thanks for watching!
Mark McCallum (30:41.454)
and I'm actually activating posterior chain, not loading across the knee, knee pain's gone away. I'm actually can do a pogo on my right leg now. So I've got some pop on my right leg. So he's now introduced some pliers, some box pliers, one legged stuff, because he's satisfied that we've probably overcome that problem. So yeah, that intense enough, I forget where the question initially was going, but you know, that.
that intensity was causing that knee pain with that. And so that's right. So hence, my motivation is actually, my priority at the moment is the 10K. So I'm actually interested in speed again. I was originally a 1500 meter runner. And so I am now actually kind of interested in doing some shorter stuff. Cause I can go out and I've done 100K on zero training.
Tyson (31:10.129)
That's it.
Tyson (31:16.009)
Interesting, interesting to hear.
Mark McCallum (31:31.646)
I've gone out and not trained for 18 months and went out. Sure, it took me 23 hours and 57 minutes. Sub 24 was my target. So that was the slowest 100K I've ever done. 1430 is the fastest I've ever done. But it was just my job, just didn't allow me to get the training in. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna finish this bloody thing. I'm just gonna effectively power walked the 100K.
Tyson (31:39.367)
Yeah.
Mark McCallum (31:57.03)
So, but no, getting back into the shorter, faster stuff is probably what I'm passionate about. Now, I still love stepping off on 100k. That's an experience. There's that saying, you can't walk in the same river twice. You kind of finish 100k a different person than when you started 100k. You always learn something about yourself. And I love the community. I love the events and also just the act of, you know, moving across.
Tyson (32:12.945)
Yeah.
Mark McCallum (32:23.062)
those fantastic environments where 100Ks tend to be run. So yeah, the shorter stuff is actually what I'm interested in now. And we haven't mentioned it, but I've been lucky enough to get a ticket in the UTMB CCC August 30th. So I never, I then I'm like, crap, I've got another 100K I've got to commit to, which is now six and a half months away. So, and that's gonna go real quick. That's gonna go real quick. But, you know, I'm quite comfortable that I can get out and knock out 100Ks.
Tyson (32:28.026)
Yeah.
Tyson (32:41.617)
Hehehehe. Sure.
Mark McCallum (32:52.907)
Okay, it's not gonna be fast and it's not gonna be pretty, but I think the shorter stuff is actually what is motivating me and is passionate.
Tyson (33:01.981)
That's great. Yeah, it's nice. It is interesting that for, yeah, you got one too. Yeah, it's so interesting that for 35 years, you said you're afraid of the running fast, especially based on the fact that your fourth or fifth 1500 meters, age 17, you ran 404. It seems like a real sweet spot. But one of the things that I'm sort of curious, just from a personal perspective as well, because I haven't spoke to you this over the last couple of weeks, the two big changes. First, I just mentioned introducing a little more speed work.
Mark McCallum (33:03.206)
It's life, and it's love.
Tyson (33:30.221)
And then with one eye on these hundred K events where we're gradually increasing the volume of the, the Saturday and the Sunday running. And so I guess the, the caution that we're playing with is not introducing too many massive variable changes all at once. And so I think we've, from, from what I can tell the, um, just based on conversations with you, you seem to be handling it well, I do see the, the Saturday or Sunday run is tinkered with from time to time based on
how you feel, how you've recovered. But in terms of how you feel, you're actually absorbing a lot of the work. Like you're feeling as though the body's strong. You're feeling as though you found yourself in a little bit of a sweet spot with volume and intensity at the moment.
Mark McCallum (34:12.882)
Yeah, so, and God, I burn, Burn talks about this as well, kind of like your core systems and your peripheral systems. So, from a core, I actually don't feel much core fatigue. So at the end of a running week, I don't feel tired, physically tired. I'm dealing with periphery fatigue, which is, I guess, my...
ability of my musculoskeletal system to handle the load. And that's at the end of the week, it's like, oh crap, my legs are tired, you know, and I just got to absorb that training and allow, and that's why I decided to take it easy yesterday, and I'll go pretty easy today, I'll just get on the bike and turn the legs over. That's till probably Wednesday's session. So, I actually feel like I am handling it quite well. I'm interested where it's...
Because my training, what I've been doing with Dave, it's gone from rehabilitation now to almost kind of like in a performance-based strength and conditioning program. So I'm kind of interested to see where that's going to go now that I'm starting to introduce a bit more, some extensive plyos into the mix and start to see how that, I start to develop a bit more power and speed in the strength routine and see how that plays out for the stuff such as the intervals. I think it makes sense
I haven't been doing speed work, so I go out and I run harder. My legs are going to hurt a little bit more than what I would if I'd been out there doing zone two. So, you know, I'm going out there on the zone twos, and I think I must be quite efficient at burning fat because I don't eat anything. I'll go out and I run 20k. I don't need to drink or eat anything. So, you know, I'm not taking jowls or anything like that. And I'm not feeling like I have a lack of energy at those runs. So, and one thing has happened in this low, this low...
it's this zone two stuff, you know, this low heart rate stuff, is I'm getting faster, you know, the math stuff works, you know, the zone two stuff works, I'm getting faster at those heart rates. I think when we started doing this, I was doing about, to keep my heart rate below 125 is what I'm aiming for. I was doing about 630, I'm now down to about 605, you know, six minutes a K to stay below 125.
Tyson (36:27.373)
That's so impressive. I feel as though I had the reverse impact of, of what you just said, like in terms of a little bit of fatigue due to the faster work, obviously I was at Hall's gap last weekend, as you know, cause I messaged you asking if you got any recommendations and, um, you sent through the all trails app, which I've become obsessed with since then. It's unbelievable. I'd heard of it before, but hadn't really delved too much into the world of trail running and, uh, the biggest difficulty was trying to find a, uh,
like isolate one particular trial that I was going to try and run. Long story short, I had 18 K and I thought, I know you gave me some love on Strava, but I, uh, saw a loop. It was about 18 K. I got to the turnoff for this particular, uh, run and it had been closed off because of the fire. And I thought, Oh, well, what am I going to do? Cause I'm only six K in and about 200 meters later, I saw this sign saying, uh, Baronia peak 3.3 K that way.
And I was like, all right, here we go. Let's get the trail running legs on. And, oh my gosh, it's just what an experience. I think I was doing about eight and a half minute K pace at some of the points. I was going through the motion of running though. If you looked at me, I think that's all it was. I don't think you would actually call it running. Um, but I got to the top of the mountain and got the view and had a gel and sat on a rock for a moment. And I was up there by myself at about, it must've been eight, 30 or nine o'clock. And I thought, ah, okay, this is the, this is the first real taste of.
of trail running that I've ever enjoyed. And I kind of got home and oh my gosh, Monday morning, Tuesday morning, my body was so sore. And I think my Tuesday morning run had the splits to prove it. I think I was running around six minute K pace or 550 K pace just to keep the legs in zone two heart rate or keep the heart under, you know, what was required for zone two. And.
Mark McCallum (38:12.881)
Yes.
Tyson (38:18.353)
Oh, I can't remember feeling that much buildup of just fatiguing my legs for such a long time. And it was amazing because I didn't know such slow, slow running would, uh, would leave me in that particular position. But gee, it's a, it's a brutal, uh, if not beautiful sport to be involved in.
Mark McCallum (38:35.966)
Yeah, it is tough. You know, I remember one of the early ultras I ran, my wife of one of the pilots that I knew at 37th Squadron, she was training to do the ultra. And they lived down in North Sydney somewhere and she was doing a lot of miles. She was doing a real lot of miles, but they were road miles. And she was real quick. You know, I thought, oh, she's gonna smash this. But she ended up, I think she had to pull out. She ended up injuring herself because the terrain is like.
It's like, you know, you run along with a bunch of bloody front rowers having, having a go at you as you're trying to maintain your stride. You know, trains always changing. You can't get into, well, there are some places where you can get into a bit of a tempo and a flow, but you're constantly dealing with changes in train changes in footstripe, which in some ways, I think potentially makes you a stronger, healthier runner as well.
I've never turned an ankle and I hear people that have ankle issues but I think it's because I spend so much time on the trail as running uneven ground that I've just developed either the proprioceptive awareness of what the ground's like or I've developed the strength and the tendon strengthening to allow me to do that. So I've been very fortunate in that regard.
Tyson (39:48.429)
Yeah, it was interesting. I got so excited by Darren and Finn's book, uh, running with the Kenyans that I went out to try and find if there was any equivalent with any other nations and I found one, uh, it's into thin air or out of thin air. One's about Everest. One's about Ethiopian distance runners. I'm not sure which one's the E. Anyway, I read that and it was so interesting just to hear about the terrain that the Ethiopians spend so much time with their running, uh, on like whether it's the gravel or whether it's through forest. Yeah. That proprioception. There's a constant.
Mark McCallum (40:03.859)
Yeah.
Tyson (40:18.849)
Uh, the bloke who wrote the book was saying that he was staggered that any of the athletes, particularly Kennedy's, Yubikele was the standout, but staggered that any of the athletes could develop any kind of rhythm and yet more than just having rhythm on what was the wildest terrain, these guys were absolutely flying and he said he, he spent the first three weeks just trying to make sure he wasn't stepping in a pothole and was running about six or seven minutes per K. So it's definitely a skill. I mean, my right ankle is evidence of the fact that I probably grew up in a, uh, a fairly commercial little town.
with a lot of pavement and a lot of trails because I moved to Ballarat, started running trails with Monas Group and I reckon I rolled my ankle five times in the first six months. And so, yeah, it's still a little bit loose. I've been trying to do some more work on it to strengthen it but you're right, it's definitely a different craft.
Mark McCallum (40:55.287)
Yeah. Well.
Mark McCallum (41:03.63)
So did you watch any of Matt Hall's Echidyn series with Sweat Elite? Yeah, Matt Fox, sorry, not Matt Hall, Matt Fox.
Tyson (41:09.601)
Oh, Matt Fox. Matt Fox. Yeah, I did. So right or wrongly, I'm, I don't know what it is. I, I'm not overly interested in Echidin for some reason. I don't know what it is. I started what, yeah, I watched a couple. I watched a couple and I was like, okay, it's, I mean, as much as I appreciate the work that he put in, I couldn't get into the actual story just cause I was like, ah, I'm more, I'm more interested in the individual athletes. Whereas.
Mark McCallum (41:24.15)
No, I never saw it. Yeah, but I watched a couple.
Tyson (41:38.957)
He had one on the world record holder for the Ironman a couple of weeks ago and I was obsessed with that because I was just fascinated at the pace and the volume that he was running so much of his workout. But yeah, didn't really watch too much of the Ekadim one.
Mark McCallum (41:51.635)
So the reason I mentioned it because there were some Kenyan runners that were actually
I think they were employed, they were actually, because they have company teams. So the company employed these Kenyan runners and they ended up being on their running team. And Matt spoke to some of them about what they think of the Japanese approach to training. You know, and of course, as you can imagine, Japanese is very regimented in their approach. And one of them made the observation, he said, what could they do different? What was wrong with their training? And one of them basically said no forests, that they spent all their time running pavement and running.
and running the track, whereas the Kenyans, if they're not on the track, they're usually on dirt surfaces. They're running through forests or on dirt roads. And that's one thing I do, because it's actually a little bit easier on the body. I try and find a dirt surface to run on wherever I can. If I'm running around Canberra here on the bike paths, I'm usually off the side on the verge, just on the grass running, because I find it much more comfortable than it's kind of smacking on the pavement.
Tyson (42:55.837)
for sure. Mark, I'm not gonna take up too much of your time. I told you around 40 minutes, we're at 43. So I'm gonna love you and leave you, but I really appreciate you coming on and having a chat. It's always fun. I mean, I look forward to our phone calls at the best of time. So I'm hoping everyone gets as much out of our chats as what I do. So I'll also for everyone listening, make sure I keep people updated on your progress and how things are going. But we're heading in the right direction for some pretty good results, I think.
Mark McCallum (43:21.546)
Yeah, thanks very much, Tyce. Really, I'm the same way. I kind of think when we first established this coach-athlete relationship, I kind of said the conversations we have each week are like fuel of the fire. They're really part of the motivation to keep you going and also keep you honest. It keeps me honest as well, which is wonderful. So thank you for all your efforts.
Tyson (43:40.901)
Nah, easy. All right, we'll leave it there. See you later everybody. Awesome, man. I'll cut that off there. That was great. That was a...