053 | Nailing Your City (Distribution) Strategy: How to Transform Brand Momentum into Velocity in the right venues | Part 2/2 with Justin Medcraft, Founder of Mate Maker (Los Angeles, CA, USA)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 053, I continued the conversation with Justin Medcraft from Episode 052, so feel free to listen to that as well. He is the Founder of Mate Maker Hard Kombucha.

He brings a wealth of previous experience in Spirits and Beer. We discussed building demand for a start-up drinks brand, standing out amongst a sea of products, and focusing on building momentum.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.

One last thing: If you enjoy this podcast, you will also like the MAFFEO DRINKS Guides. You can subscribe free or paid on maffeodrinks.com

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:24 When To Open New Markets

10:31 Community Driven Marketing

15:45 Growing From Your Community

18:33 Getting The SKU In, Increasing Rotation

26:33 Advantages Of Small Brands

36:19 Discipline

39:15 Contacts

39:54 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Justin Medcraft

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Justin Medcraft

Founder | Mate Maker

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafiao in
Eisode 53.

I continue the conversation with
Justin Medcraft from Eisode 52,

so feel free to listen to that
as well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, you will also like
the Mafia Drinks guides.

You can subscribe free or paid
on Mafia Drinkscom.

What I'm hearing is like there's
a, there's a thin line now

between riding the momentum and
and you know being lured by

opportunities that you know
sometimes you have to say no,

sometimes you know it's the
right size.

So how do you spot that?
Of course it's $1,000,000

question, but what's the balance
between for example going to the

next city or hold the horses and
and let me focus on this city

first because I want to really
win here and and I move to next

city or I mean I'm mentioning
the city but it could be a

chain, it could be a you know
independent versus the first

chain that wants it and and and
so on.

It it's funny that you ask that
because you know when you ask me

that question I think about you
know the total country of the US

and how big it is.
And also you know the states

that exist in the in the US are
kind of countries in their own

right.
At what point do you open up

those other markets?
Like at what point do you go

from a California brand to open
up Florida, Texas, the Midwest,

These are all, you know states
that have AGDP bigger than a

country.
It's a big deal to open those up

and it's like a big decision to
make for sure.

I can only really kind of speak
to like you know our thought and

mindset, you know, but I think
it kind of comes down to is

where do you want to win and
what potential do you think like

that you think your product has.
Because you know for example

with a hard Kombucha there's
been a lot of brands that have

tried to push a national agenda.
You know, there's been a lot of

brands that have scaled to
multiple states really, really

quickly.
Only I suppose to be found that

you know California today is
like where 60 to 70% of the

volume comes from in this
category.

So you know you've got to ask
the question why do you want to

create a national brand behind a
product that is kind of showing

that it's only really you know
focused on California.

So I think then it comes down to
like a strategic question which

is do you want to be, you know,
the national everything to

everyone, you know, household
name in every single retailer or

do you want to be the like the
local Hero, you know, that has a

really deep level of
distribution in a market that

has proven that the product
works?

Hi, Kombucha has been around for
a while, but I think in the last

kind of four or five years, it's
really started to you know,

drive some scale and momentum
and interest.

And I think now that we know
more, which is where the volumes

coming from, where the drinkers
are coming from, you know,

predominantly coming out of
California.

That decision that you would
probably make today might have

been a little bit different five
years ago, you know, where

you've got like a high growth
opportunity and you're kind of

thinking, wow, if we keep
replicating this in other

states, we're going to have
something huge on our hand.

So I think it all depends on
like you know, the, the data and

the information that you've got
on hand.

It also comes down to not trying
to you know, expand too quickly

and being really focused on like
where your resources are being

deployed because you know a
startup beverage brand.

You have to be so mindful in
that, you know, you have to be

really focused on where you're
putting the money, where do you

have the consumers that are you
know, driving the majority of

the category, where is the
volume coming from?

And just like investing in that,
you know, we have this saying,

it's like it's got a hundred
$100, like where do you spend

$100 at?
The.

End of the day that's where it
comes down to and you know if

you've got $100 and there's a
big opportunity in another

market, you know then for sure
look at it.

But you know we are I think just
really looking at what is the

data telling us from where the
consumption is coming and how do

we do a really good job at
executing against that rather

than trying to be the first, you
know and it comes back to that

that conversation we had before,
right, which is like you know

being first has not always been
best.

It's a, it's a tricky one.
It can probably be answered so

many, you know so many different
ways, Chris, but I think you

know that's in hindsight, you
know how we look at the

opportunity and how we kind of
focus our resources and stuff.

Now because and it's it's a very
interesting point because

because very often like and I'm
and I'm I'm getting this as a

feedback you know from from
listeners as well.

Now like that it's like yeah I
want to know what are the

mistakes that you know that that
the people are doing.

What are they learning from?
When is it right to say no?

When is it right?
Yes.

No because sometimes there are
some success stories that come

from opportunities but there
also sound like some big

failures as well.
Now because very often like it

also depends on the on the money
you have at your disposal

because you know big chain
accounts with a big order

accounts with a big issue with
the cash flow because you know

you need to produce the goods
before you're selling the goods

and then you need to get paid by
that retailer.

You know so how many months do
you have because you you produce

on day one and you you pay them
on day one and then you may get

money on day 250.
You know for sure and you know

if you've got the money you can
grasp that opportunity because

sometimes it's easy to say like
OK, no, I I always say no to

opportunities.
Yeah, because you don't have the

money.
But if you had the money, would

you say yes to that opportunity,
yes or no, you know, and then it

would be a much more interesting
kind of conversation now because

then it's much more strategic,
is not driven by, you know,

would you like to buy Ferrari?
If I've got a a million in the

bank, you know I can have a
better answer than if I have

100,000 in the bank and I need
to pay the rent and then I say

no, no, I'm against Ferrari.
It's a different story.

Well, I think I think it also
comes down to just you know what

we're talking about before it's
do you have all of the, you

know, demand driving, pool
generation, whatever you want to

call it, the things that you
need outside of the products

being on shelf to make sure that
it's going to perform.

And you know when you do have
that shot having everything kind

of working that he's in your
favor as marketers, as demand

drivers, we can do everything
that we can to you know, make

sure that that product is going
to show up in the best way

possible, have all the activity
you know planned behind it, have

all the things kind of going for
it right.

But at some point you kind of
have to hand the reins over to

the consumer.
You could have the pricing

perfect, the the, the way it
shows up on shelf, perfect

activity that's going to drive
people into store, great social

digital marketing, you know,
highly targeted media, all the

things that you know, we can
kind of play with and and twist

and you know pull.
But the end of the day, it's the

consumer that's going to
probably tell you whether or not

you're right or whether or not
they're interested in it.

And I think it's a, it's the
$1,000,000 question, right.

It's like at what point do you
switch it on?

But yeah, I think like having
everything outside of just the

product on the shelf is probably
going to be the thing that

determines whether or not it's
going to be successful.

It's not going to be just
getting it on shell.

You know, that could be the
temptation for a lot of small

brands, a lot of startup, but
businesses which is like you can

instantly switch on $2000 or
2000 points of distribution.

But if you haven't got all of
the work put into making sure

that you're already in the
decision kind of making process

before they're looking at the
the shelves, then I think that's

where we as marketers, business
owners, whatever you want to

call it can influence it.
And that's, you know, try what

we that's what we try to do our
jobs, you know, really well at.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I'm listening to you.

It makes me think of a big
launch that I did many years ago

when I was in beer and it was in
a country where our partner was

a big partner.
So I've I've always worked in

export and and you know it was
always like smaller players that

you know our our importers were
like normally sized businesses

and we were accounting for the
you know a relative size of the

volume for them.
But, but then in this case it

was a country where we we were
launching with a huge this, I

mean with the market leader
basically and my brand that was

Petroni at that time.
And I was really like you know

hold the horses, hold the horses
And these guys like they were,

they had no idea the numbers
that I was talking about for

them it was like peanuts.
I remember this meeting with

like we must have been 15 people
with the Super senior commercial

directors and marketing
directors and you know how it

was me and and another guy from
our side And and I remember like

when we define what the launch
would look like, it was you know

like for them it was the minimum
condition of what they could do,

which for me was becoming one of
the biggest markets that was I

was ever going through to have
says and I was strongly against

it.
But nevertheless we have to we

have to go with it.
And then like I remember this

trade visit, wherever I was
going, it was peyronie

everywhere.
It was just like in all the

bars, all the places, all the
market, you know, it was crazy.

You know, like I've never seen
these shares like 18 phasing, 6

phasing, 7 phasing, 10, you
know, But then again like

ultimately the year came and we
had reached that budget, but it

was reached just in
distribution.

It was just like it was such a
wide distribution spread that

basically the budget was done,
you know, the selling budget was

done.
But then obviously like there

was no sell out because the
price was too expensive for

those consumers.
He was like he was crazy and was

just like collecting dust on the
shelves.

Now and that is always what I'm
advising people on is that be

careful, like when you have like
big muscles because if you're a

small guy, you know like you
don't have big muscles, but you

may partner with someone with
big muscles.

And there's always a bit of a
challenge where if you don't

have the tool that you're
talking about, you know, like

activation, how do you support
the demand?

How do you convert that demand?
You sustain that demand, You

know, then it becomes very
dangerous for for your brand

because all of a sudden it's
everywhere and it's not rotating

and then all of a sudden
discount and then the hits the

fan.
Yeah.

And then a question that I have
also because I'm very interested

in terms of activation,
something that I don't talk that

much on on here.
You mentioned before like parts

of the community is about
surfers and musicians and you

know, so the concert does events
and this kind of stuff now.

So how do you put that play into
the equation of on and off

trade?
Is it a marketing activity kind

of thing or does it actually
drive volume for for your brand

or how how do you see that kind
of like channel and event

together?
Yeah.

It's interesting because
sponsoring athletes or

sponsoring musicians or you know
being available in like some of

these like bigger stadiums is
kind of something that

traditionally is reserved for
like big brands with like big

budgets that can afford to
sponsor football teams or

football stadiums or what not.
I think the way that we had part

of our go to market strategy was
you know being a culturally LED

brand that was backed by people
that you know had a very engaged

kind of audience behind them.
How do you act like a big brand

on a small brand budget?
I think one of the kind of the

hacks that we had, I think
becoming even more popular these

days is when we initially kind
of went to raise money to launch

our business, we kind of put it
in front of our friends and

family first.
You know, we and our friends and

family happened to be, you know,
pro surfers and you know, Grammy

winning a musician's.
It was lucky that I think we

were able to build and create
like this community of behind it

that not only, you know, wanted
to partner with us, but invest

in us too.
And then all of a sudden, you

know, we've got like a a really
interesting group of owners and

investors that aren't suits, you
know, from boardrooms.

They're musicians that are on
stage, they're festival

promoters, they're pro surfers
making movies.

They're Olympians.
They're like just like a very

interesting group of people that
bought into this message.

And you know, I think what was
actually the really beneficial

part of that is that we're able
to build our brand through their

worlds.
You know, like we can kind of

build around them as
ambassadors, as owners, as

figures of the brand and start
to behave not as just a small

startup beverage brand but like
as a kind of much bigger

cultural brand that a lot of
other big businesses normally

have to buy their way into those
places.

We were kind of organically just
like showing up.

So this has probably been the
biggest growth hack that we've

had as a business and the thing
that you know, retailers really

buy into is the fact that we
create programming around these

ambassadors and these owners
that we can drive into retail.

My Co founders are a band called
Rufus de Sol, right?

Rufus de Sol are a Aussie band.
You know, they've we went to

school together 20 years ago.
We kind of grew up together, you

know, sleeping on each other's
floors and when I moved over to

New York to work at a big
company, you know, they would

come and stay with me on the
couch.

So there's like a story there of
friendship and mateship.

But what what is I think really
cool now is that wherever to

build a brand through their
world, right?

So when they go on tour, when
you walk into a roof as to Soul

Show, you'll see Mate Maker
available on all the bars.

You know, you'll see activations
that allow us to, you know, kind

of bring fans along for the
ride.

And then, you know, when you
walk into a retail store, you

got the opportunity to kind of
win a really exclusive

experience.
Now like, if we were to put a

price tag on that, you know, and
put that to any other business,

you're talking 7 figures sort of
stuff.

I think like a lot of smaller
beverage brands that are backed

by celebrities or backed by, you
know, other famous people can do

a like a really good job at like
an instant burst.

I think the trip, the challenge
though is going to be how do you

do that in an authentic way?
There's so many celebrity back

brands today that I think that
everyone's starting to clue into

this idea of like, you know,
awareness and Instagram reach

and having them, you know, kind
of push your product.

I think the ones that really
work well and there's a handful

of them that do an amazing job
are the ones that kind of go

that layer deeper.
They've got that story there

that they've got that, you know,
authentic connection, you know,

between the people that are
operating the brand and the

consumers kind of, you know,
find that out.

Like consumers are very smart
now.

They go down and they really,
you know, research and focus on

a brand.
And I think it's like what's

that story at the start that
kind of allows everything to

fall into place.
And you know with us we're

lucky.
We've got 20 years of friendship

as our story, you know, and lots
of other kind of stories along

the road.
But when a retailer kind of asks

how we driving demand or how
we're showing up in store, we

we're able to kind of pull
together this like 360 strategy

that you know has these people.
That part of it that I think is

definitely something that's
allowed us to punch well above

our weight and has allowed us to
show up in places that, you know

startup brands might not have
the ability to do because just

the price tag is too high.
So.

So that's definitely been like a
growth hack and something that I

think has allowed us to, you
know, kind of stand out amongst

everyone else.
Absolutely.

I it's very interesting what
you're saying because it's a

celebrity bottom up story.
I would call it now because it's

not just like asking someone
famous to to bet your product.

It starts very organically now
from from the friends and family

that happens to be a a nice
bunch of friends and family.

I would say no.
But also like listening to you,

it makes me also think about how
you almost have to grasp

opportunities commercially to
make the most of these assets

that that you have.
Because then when when you've

got like a concert of Rufus of
Soul and you want your product

to be available, because if that
product has been seen on stage

or in the backstage or whatever,
if you're only in 10 independent

beach bars in San Diego, then
all of us are like, nobody's

going to find it now.
And the same thing with surfers,

community and so on.
So it's very interesting what

you're saying because it's what
I was saying about the brand

ring roads.
It's almost like the friends and

family ring roads as well.
You can take the the surfer

routes and you know on the music
routes and you know all

different kind of routes that
some of them are more into

sports, some of them are more
into music.

And you can get along and play
along with certain opportunities

that actually drive also some
commercial results and vice

versa.
It goes back and forth from from

the commercial because then when
you see a you know win something

with XYZ then suddenly becomes
low K This is not somebody that

these guys have paid a random
person for in an agency like

this is really like a real
stuff.

It's organic from the from the
people that are actually owners

of this brand.
Yeah, you kind of immediately

building into an audience that
has a lot of trust as well.

You know, like at a like as a
brand that starts out, there

isn't a lot of trust there
because he's so new.

But if you're able to then kind
of work with, you know, people

that have a captive audience
that trust them, then them

having them back your product
and your brand, I think really

kind of resonates and starts to
influence their trust on your

brand as the thing.
So there's a lot that goes into

it.
Obviously, you know, has to be

an authentic story.
It's kind of has to have a

meaningful origin story to it.
But at the same time, I think,

you know, being able to give
consumers value is also like

another thing that you know, if
you're partnering with, you

know, people like you know, a
band or a surfer, it's like what

are you doing that's going to
generate value for the retailer

and for the consumer by giving
them stuff that's, you know that

they can't access.
And that of it I think over time

like really helps you know,
build that trust too.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And let's talk about you know

like sustaining the demand now
because we spoke about how you

enter places and so on and you
are more than SKU, no, like I

mainly see cans, but obviously
you are you're also on on on

keg, no.
How does that play in your

strategy?
Like what's the foot in the door

kind of SKU that you play with
when you enter venues and then

how do you expand in in driving
more rotation for the velocity

of the brand in a venue?
Going back to the on premise and

thinking about like channel
strategy first and foremost then

informs your you know kind of
SKU strategy.

So like you know what products
have you got kind of to deliver

on those channels.
So for on premise I suppose like

draft kegs, tap handles, those
are the things that in the US

are the most valuable SKU really
because it's a highly visible

piece of the products.
The the pricing on on draft is

also like really competitive.
But yeah, when it comes to like

off premise, you know there
there's obviously like a whole

nother skew sort of strategy to
it.

We've definitely looked at like
how do we have a simple skew

strategy that when we go to
retailers it's easy for them to

get on board.
You know, so that we don't have

like 50 different flavors.
We don't have you know, lots of

different pricing That gets
confusing.

We make it really simple for
them.

I think that you know,
simplification of that and

prioritization of that is like
you know, really helpful for a

lot of these retailers so that
when you're going in there, you

know exactly what you're asking
for and you make it easier for

them to make a decision.
I think there's a lot of

categories out there that you
know are constantly bringing in,

you know, new products, new
versions, new flavors, new, all

of that.
And then that's cool at the

start because you're bringing
new news and things, but then

you get to a point where.
You know you've got 20 different

flavors on the shelf and a
retailer saying we can have 10.

You have to start to kind of
make some decisions around

rationalization and and all
that.

So I think you like your channel
strategy is incredibly important

around what channels do you want
to win at and then what are the

skews that are working in those
channels.

You know if you go to a 711
store that's very, very

differently you know then going
to like a target you know or

going into an on premise venue
versus a maybe like a live music

venue, they can be different
too.

So you know we have a few
flavors, really three flavors

that we focus on.
We focus on you know draft as

our kind of priority in the on
premise A because it's highly

visible.
B, because it means that if

you're on draft that the
competition is generally lower.

You know you don't have a ton of
other products that are hard for

booch is on draft within craft
beer or domestic beer that's

probably going to be different.
But I think for Kombucha it's a

really effective strategy.
And then yeah, in the off

premise, you know thinking about
like what are the right channels

at the stage of your brand that
you want to be in and then you

develop your skews off the back
of that.

But we haven't really gone into
like the big box retailers yet.

You know the places like Costco
and you know those huge

retailers that are looking for
individual packs, large format

packages, all of that sort of
stuff.

So we've kind of tried to keep
it really like simple and

focused on you know where we
think that people are buying

these kind of like benefit you
products in the right occasion.

And then just, you know, make it
simple for the retailers with

the, you know, select amount of
flavors at a good price and you

know, clearly prioritized.
It's interesting, which is

because I had a different take
in my old days.

For me, I I guess it depends on
the market now because for

example in mainly in Europe or I
mean specific countries in

Europe but you always have let's
say you like 4 kegs that you and

that you fight with.
Also there is space for like 3

taps, 4 taps.
So it was definitely difficult

to get on the top.
So the the way I would play, I

would play with bottle because
then the bottle would would

allow me to put the foot in the
door because there was most more

space in the fridge rather than
on the phones because phones

like it was just like three or
four and you know two or three

were already taken by a contract
with a with a supplier.

So then I had like 125% chance
to get in and then everybody was

going for that 25% chance.
Now about what I've seen in

California, I mean the the top
part it it's playing like a much

bigger role.
So you've got like what like 10

tap handles or like 15 tap
handles or you know like

depending on the venue of course
now.

So I I guess do you, do you find
that as a as an option?

Because what I'm interested in
knowing from you is that it's

true that hard kombucha, like
there's not so many on on draft.

But then if I wasn't a bar
owner, I would still say, yeah,

but you're still taking space of
a beer or yeah, hard seltzer,

you're just like 1 kombucha.
But you know, I don't want to

give it to you, I want to give
it to another beer.

So how does that play for you
usually?

Yeah.
It's funny because I think it's

also very different in the US
versus other markets.

Like you know, hearing you talk
just now, I started thinking

back to Australia, right, And
the fact that you go into a bar

and yeah, 8090% of those draft
handles would be bought up and

paid for in a in a big kind of
contract.

In America, there's a lot more
independent local kind of brand

influence that you know, has in
the retailer or in the, you

know, a lot of these accounts,
like a lot of bars want the

local choice.
You know, they want the local

brewery, They want the local
product that is just down the

road that people are shopping
for.

Of course you're going to have,
you know, your beat ones, you

'cause your Bud Lights, all of
those ones.

But I think the weight that a
lot of local producers and

supplies have over here is
probably thanks to the craft

movement, you know the craft be
movement that's kind of

influence consumers choices that
they want the local.

I also think that the ability
for those large national

retailers to like buy up all of
the draft handles here isn't as

influential.
A lot of the you know suppliers

Dr. value to retailers through
events and through all these

sort of things.
You know being able to kind of

go and and buy up tap handles in
an account is not only not legal

over here.
So it also I think the market

conditions also helps a lot of
you know local suppliers that

can be next to a Bud Light, you
know that can be next to a

international brand.
The other part is is you know

like what do you bring into that
account that is going to be

driving value for them.
And the challenge that like a

brand like Bud Light would have
is being able to activate in all

of these accounts at one time a
small local brand can identify

like you know 50 accounts that
they want to win in and they'll

you know over activate in those
accounts rather than if you know

you've got a half a million
points of distribution in the

country can be pretty hard to,
you know, do everything all at

once.
Now a lot of the beverage brands

are really focused on, you know
what are the Halo accounts that

you want to do a really good job
in and how can you not only show

up there as like the local
choice, you know, that taps into

that inside of people wanting to
support their local brewery or

their local partner.
But also do events bring people

to the account, do sorts of
things that you know at the end

of the day a lot of these bars
want traffic, you know, they

want footfall, they want people
to come into the bar, spend

money.
And I think like as simple as it

is, it's a it's a pretty
important part of a strategy.

If you're starting out, you
know, like what are you doing

that's going to drive people to
their account?

What are you going to do that's
going to kind of get them

staying there longer, that's
going to get them purchasing

more, you know, group purchases,
all that sort of stuff.

And I think, you know, the more
mature and the more

sophisticated brands get, I
think they kind of forget about

that.
You know, you're focused on just

like what's your next Super Bowl
ad.

Whereas like at the same time,
you know, being able to do field

marketing or grassroots
marketing can be, you know,

really influential not only to
accounts but also to just like

kind of building that you know,
community behind your products.

Yeah.
And that's that's a great point

that because it it makes me
think down that when we're

talking about independent now
what what you were saying upon

you know being a small player
versus a big player is that very

often in my experience I've seen
that you know in those smaller

accounts where actually the
occasion fit is much better for

my brand.
Actually the big players may not

be interested in that because
the the volume pool would be

much lower.
They would rather go for a big

chain or for a big bar or big
restaurant with a lot of seats

so that they know that they can
have a huge throughputs now, but

you can accommodate a much
smaller throughputs with your

brand because you don't really
care about, you know, driving

kegs and kegs and kegs on an, on
a, on a on a small account.

So you go to a smaller place.
Imagine like a beach bar where

surfers go because they belong
to your community going back to

what you were saying at the
beginning.

And in in that sense there's,
you know, like it.

It's much less interesting for a
big guy to go in because like

what's that, what's the
throughput here?

You know what it what would it
be like?

I don't know one or two kegs per
week of that time though I don't

really care.
So, you know I was on the other

one down the road that is part
of a big chain where there is a

centralized buying process,
activation process and so on.

And then the second point of the
that makes the, you made me

think about is that also when it
comes to activation that you

were saying, you know like about
the 50 activations running at

the same time in a Wilder, you
know in a more rock and punk way

now because.
Because then they use the big

players that they use on a OK, I
I agreed with the central buyer.

I'm going to the month of
February, I got to do this

promotion with this POS
material, with this table

talkers, with this thing, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, right.

And then it's very easy to
implement because it's like it's

more like it's like an army.
Of course you need to bring the

tanks and and the Jeep and bees,
but you know you know how to do

that.
No, but in your element is more

like a kind of like guerrilla
warfare now and you are allowing

much less compliance to that
activation because you leave it

a little bit more to the bar
owner.

And it's like I want to do a a
nice party and OK, like we're

going to have a barbecue in one
place and it's going to be a

live band in another place.
And you don't really care if all

the activation that really speak
to each other because ultimately

they focus on one occasion,
which is the, for example, the

golden hour for you.
You know, doesn't really matter

if it's there's a bonfire on the
beach and live music or there's

a DJ sets or people grilling, it
doesn't really matter.

Because for me, what I'm
interested about is consumers

having a good time during the
golden hour while a big brand

would say loud, oh, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no.

That's not on brand.
You know, BBQ is not in our

brand, platform and live music.
It's only these indie bands.

It's not about these other bands
because these are not where our

25 to 35 year olds ABC Plus One
are focusing now.

So it's very interesting, like
how you can play something that

people may think it's an it's a
disadvantage to your advantage,

and that is what the craft
movement has opened up for all

smaller players now.
The only thing that I would

maybe challenge to that is, you
know these are still massive

accounts.
The accounts that we're going

into are still huge volume
accounts that are like deeply

influential.
I think it's about like how do

you show up as a brand that
really matters, you know, in

some of these accounts.
So being able to create a lot of

value for them, be able to bring
them experiences that you know a

lot of brands can't deliver on.
So when we do an event or a

party like we'll bring in some
like you know, world class

talent that these venues might
not normally be able to, you

know, afford to put on the bill.
I think it all comes down to

value, right?
So you can either drive value

through investment, right and
through big sponsorships and you

know, high ticket items like
that or you can drive value at a

grassroots level, right.
And you can drive you know value

through simple events, simple
parties, simple things like

that.
How Budweiser might drive value

could is going to be very
different to how, you know, I

may make a drive's value.
And I think what the insight

that is interesting now is, is
like as a result of a lot of

beverage brands, startup
beverage brands kind of

operating in this space.
People had to be very creative

around how they drive value into
accounts.

You know because we can't afford
the high ticket cash investments

upfront, we have to really think
about partnering at the venues,

how we partnering with accounts
to you know ultimately meet

their objectives and try value.
And I think that's where the

creativity kind of comes into
it.

You know, and that's where a lot
of brands that are able to

really galvanized and kind of
build a following and build an

audience and build a community,
all the things that were talked

about today, Chris.
If you can kind of deploy that

into venues and you can kind of
build that local following, that

is really valuable.
And I think that's something

that you know, startup average
brands are really elevating the

bar on.
You know, in the drinks industry

is, you know, there's always the
kind of like local Hero that is

starting to like bubble up and
punch much heavier than their

weight.
And so yeah, that's the only

caveat.
I would sort of say that Chris,

is that these are still high
volume accounts.

It's just about like being
creative in terms of how you're

showing up.
OK.

I was trying to generalize more
on how a smaller brand can can

actually play when they don't
have the resources.

But I mean listen to you, it
sounds like these are still

quite big accounts.
The only thing is that they are

more independence and they are
more independent in their

thinking and in the creativity
that they're looking for.

And then if you can enable that
through kind of like a money

can't buy a pro, right, which
you you can buy but they can't.

Yeah, you know like and all of a
sudden it becomes like a nice

barter in a positive way now
because it's just like I bring

you something that you need and
you give me something that I

need.
And then also right there is a

win, win kind of like situation
for the outlet and the venue and

and it makes me think like about
many examples of that kind of

partnership that I've seen
around right in the world.

Because you drive advocacy, you
ultimate Dr. Saves and it's a

win win because you actually
approach the same type of

consumers that want to have that
kind of occasion within a

certain setting of what what
they like.

It's funny because it doesn't
sound like anything new, right?

Driving value for retailers is
not like a a new insight.

But I think it's about how do
you get creative within that

kind of space, you know?
And how do you kind of think

outside the box a little bit in
that space And that's where the

rubber really hits the road,
right?

And you start to get some really
cool ideas coming through

thinking you know, really big
but operating in a local bottoms

up approach.
Absolutely.

It's funny because it's like
ultimately it's not rocket

science, but you know, many
people are not doing it anyway.

You know, like because outright,
you know the theory.

I mean, we've been in big
companies here, we've seen loads

of decks and trainings and
stuff.

The theory makes all sense.
You know you need to be with

cool people, you know, doing
cool things and driving value

and everybody loves it and the
brand will thrive.

Yeah, but how do I actually do
that?

You know that I I was discussing
in the in some other episode

with with my mate Julian and and
we were saying it's like it's

it's easy bottom up thinking is
easy to get it for people who

get it.
Yeah.

It's very hard for people who
don't get it because if you are

structured in a top down way,
it's very difficult to think

bottom up.
Yeah, and vice versa.

You know so.
It's it's really hard to get it

right.
It's also kind of funny because

if you think about like that big
multinational business and then

you know you've got your local
brewery that everyone loves or

the local, you know, vodka or
tequila, whatever it is.

I always look at like M&A
activity as a really interesting

guiding principle on what small
businesses do really well and

what big businesses want to be.
There's always that local

brewery that gets acquired
because they've built that local

audience, they've built that
kind of connection with their

local community and they've
built that kind of trust.

And you know, a lot of the kind
of larger businesses are like

super clued into like how do you
replicate that, right?

How do you create that?
How do you kind of drive that?

And you know, there's a reason
why M&A activity gets really

active in that space is because
it's like really hard to get it

right.
It's one of those things that if

it was as easy as putting a
Super Bowl out on TV to build

that connection with people,
then everyone would be doing it.

That's a multinational.
But the end of the day it's

there's there's a magic there
and there's a consistency of

like showing up, you know, that
local brands do really well in

their home cities that, you
know, big businesses are like

really focused on how do they
not only identify those, but how

do you scale that out into a
national product and like that

that is a really, really hard
thing to do for a lot of

companies.
And I think that, you know,

being able to operate that way
at a local level with your

consumers and build our
community behind it is, you

know, it's kind of really hard
to get right and a lot of brands

and a lot of businesses try to
do and there's only a few that

really can kind of consistently
show up and and I think deliver

on that and that's where the
interest and the fame comes into

it.
Absolutely, 100%.

I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
add anything like to that.

You know, like the showing up
and and doing it consistently,

the only thing that really
matters in the end, you know,

like it's all about like having
good habits, you know, and

consistently delivering on the
habits.

Now ultimately building a brand
is about discipline, you know,

is the discipline of doing what
you have to do no matter what.

You know, like when I see these
things on Instagram, you know,

like with this, you know,
trainers and stuff like that,

you know, it's like it's not
about motivation because

motivation.
You need to be motivated to do

it.
You know, it's about discipline

because discipline is whether
it's it's it's raining outside,

it's snowing, you still jump in
the car and you go and visit

that account, you know.
And if you if you have to rely

on motivation, then it's like
it's too hot today, it's too

cold.
And you know, yesterday I had a

big party, you know, I don't
want to do it.

You know, like, it's not about
motivation.

It's about the discipline and
the consistency of delivery and

really showing up.
And it's hard.

But it's ultimately about, as
they say, not choose your heart.

You know, it's it's hard to do
it and it's hard to not do it.

So you need.
You need to, yeah.

You need to pick your heart kind
of thing, huh, 100?

Percent and you know, everyone
sees the success, right?

Everyone sees the the wins,
everyone sees the the things

that you do really well.
But that's 5% of what goes on.

You know that like, it's hard.
It's a battle, it's non-stop and

social media and and all these
things can kind of paint a

picture on what it's like to
build and start a business that

is only a fraction of what it
really is.

The reality is that this stuff
is hard.

You know that you kind of go
through things personally,

professionally that change you
and that shape you and that you

know, that are not fun.
And I think if a lot of people

knew like what a lot of founders
and a lot of businesses go

through to kind of get to that
point, there'd probably be much

fewer products on the shelf.
So I can only appreciate, you

know, I'm not saying that we are
there certainly there, but I

look up to a lot of businesses
that I think and a lot of brands

that have done an incredible job
locally here in San Diego that I

can only appreciate what their
teams must have gone through to

really kind of consistently show
up that way and to you know go

through what they've done to be
able to create that level of

impact.
Because it's a battle.

You know, it's it's it's hard,
it hurts and it's you know,

makes the the little wins for
sure great.

But at the same time you know
that's only a fraction of of

what you actually see.
What you said really resonates

because the consistency is
everything.

I think just like constantly,
you know, showing up and being

there and you know, building and
continually kind of building

that momentum is what I think
will matter.

Fantastic, fantastic.
So that there was a fantastic

chat like very very much to
learn from and tell us how the

people can find you and how can
define Mate Maker.

I think Mate Maker the best way
to reach us would be on

Instagram.
Mate Maker Co is our Instagram

or you know on our website
www.makemakerco.com.

That's the best way to reach out
to us and find where we're

available and and that sort of
thing.

But yeah Chris, I've had a had a
great chat with you too mate.

It's been lovely to meet you
hopefully get to you know kind

of get you out to California on
a sunny day.

Next time we'll be waiting with
a couple cold drinks in hand for

sure at one of those bars and
yeah it's been a been a great

chat.
Hopefully it's been something

that I you listen is all find
some value in as well.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And I'll take that offer.

I'll ping you when I'm over
there next time.

Absolutely mate.
Take care.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 52 and 53.
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