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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey everyone, it's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Daisy Allen. Daisy Allen is a co-screenwriter and lead performer of the feature film Roller Babies, which is in post-production currently, as well as the creator of the short film Coming Over.
She's originally from Detroit and now working in Chicago. She is a writer and visual artist with a background in theater and dance. Her work blends comedy, playful experimentation with original storytelling, often emerging from collaboration within her creative community. In this episode, we talk about Daisy's world of constant note-taking, DIY film shoots, working with a collaborator when it comes to screenwriting, as well as the leap from a short film to a feature-length slapstick queer stoner comedy, which is Roller Babies.
And also stick around if you're into just hearing about community, collaboration, and how to turn Scrappy Ideas into feature films and other projects and all the different inspirations that come in day-to-day life. So please have a listen. You can follow daisy at daisyallen3000 on Instagram, and I'll have her info in the show notes. And here it is, a very fun, very lovely conversation with Daisy. Hope you enjoy.
I'm the kind of person that like I just have 60 million ideas every day and so I just keep writing them down and writing them down like yeah Roller Babies has you know we're taking our sweet sweet time with it which I'm okay with you know like I want it to you know be the this fantastic final product and so I'm fine to be patient but like my brain cannot stop turning and so
Daisy Allen (02:24.174)
Yeah, I just, you know, I keep writing. It's really mostly all I do at my apartment.
That's cool. So when it comes to ideas, are you using like voice memos or do you have like just legal pads or Moleskine's lying around where you jot down the ideas?
It's mostly like a lot of like stenographers notebooks. Cause I'll admit my work has a lot of them. And so I'll just be sitting at work. I work customer service. I do like a call center. And so I'll literally be talking to a customer and I'm like, this is a good idea. I'm going to write this down and what do you need to do today? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course you can. And so it's just kind of like,
a smattering in several folders in my Google Drive of just like all the different little like ideas and like, this would be good for this.
Yeah, I've always struggled with the transfer of like I wrote a bunch of ideas on like random legal pads and now I need to like Organize it so then I used to like a master sort of spreadsheet where it's like all right. This is a short film idea This is a play idea So do you also like spend time kind of like getting some of those floating thoughts and organizing them?
Daisy Allen (03:33.582)
Yes and no. My organization skills are chaotic. If I could say I even have organization skills. Like it's really just like very key words. Like I have a folder called a book. Cause I might write a book one day. And so it's just every idea. like, would be good in a book. Let's just throw it in there.
So do you find that lately or predominantly your focus is on writing and is there any type of writing like screenwriting or has it been more you know prose fiction, creative nonfiction, poetry like where's sort of the writing kind of mostly at?
experimenting with like a little bit of poetry, know, just like Garbledy Gook and like little notepads and things like that. Mostly screenwriting, because I'm still a very like visual person. I'm a visual artist. And so like, when I'm writing and when I'm creating, the picture is in my head, it's in my mind, it's like right in front of me. So like, screenwriting is usually the easiest for me because it's just this like...
you know, simple formula that you have to learn and do. And then, yeah, I just describe what's in my head, whatever crazy thing might be coming out.
think I remember seeing an early cut or a work in progress cut. was a short film about online dating and this creepy stalker guy. Was that something that you wrote and was it Jamie who directed it?
Daisy Allen (05:04.654)
So I wrote it and tried to direct it. It was really just inspiration. People were making films around me and I was like, well, I can do that too. And so I sat in my bed and wrote a movie that would take place in my bedroom. So I didn't have to spend any money or like do anything with it.
I'm gonna have to...
Daisy Allen (05:28.494)
Jamie did a lot of help with it. She was really fantastic. Jamie Creppen, know, like, Edwina and I were like mostly just chilling in my room, like trying to make this short film work, make it happen. And then the second weekend of shooting, Jamie showed up and was like, okay, well, we can do it a little more efficiently. Like there's like some things we can do with the lighting. And so it's really interesting to see, like, especially even in the final edit where it's like,
Okay, this was Edwina and I's first scene we ever lit in our lives. And then, you know, a couple shots later, can see that like, yeah, Jamie was lighting this. We had three points, you know?
Yeah. Well, it was sort of like prompted. mean, you mentioned sort of seeing your friends kind of making stuff. Like, I'm curious what prompted you to go, let's, let's just sort of shoot this, this idea was sort of inspired you to go from an idea to say action.
If I can be perfectly candid, it was a boy that annoyed me. Because he was making it seem so easy and I was like, oh my God, I can't hear him say another word. I can't, I can't listen to it. I just need to make my own. And so I'll admit, was like that first short film was a little bit of spite. It made it happen, you know? Like it gave me that like learning curve of just like,
Bye.
Daisy Allen (06:55.456)
Okay, I wrote 17 pages of God knows what, let's make it an image, let's make it a movie. And that's sort of how, it's funny, because that's how Roller Babies came into fruition. Edwina and I were both sitting on set of coming over trying to make it work and we're like, this is really fun. I think we kind of can do this kind of naturally.
Let's do it again. So we wrote another short film that was roller babies and Jamie and Julia and all the girls at room 19 were like, no, let's blow it up. Fuck a short film. We'll do a feature.
That's awesome, especially like, A, to have that community sort of like be down and supportive and then B, to create something and watch it kind of have its own momentum and expand. like, have you noticed that your at least screenwriting is predominantly written to have you also act in it or is this these past two kind of projects just the nature of the timeline? Like, oh, I'll also perform in these. Like, where do you sort of approach your work when it comes to whether you're going to perform in it or you're just sort of writing this, you know.
Kind of a coin flip, It's, you know, I got my degree in musical theater dance and so like my training is in performing still. And like, you know, I love to, you know, go and sing a song or do a little dance and, you know, perform. It's still so very fun. But I've noticed like recently in my writing the roles that I'm writing for myself are becoming smaller and smaller. But I still do love to
perform and like all this stuff and like I always write Adrena as the lead because I'm like I have an actress like let's write for her and and that's another reason that I usually include myself is I I know a lot of actors of course I do and like anytime I'm writing something if I'm writing a character I kind of already have a cast like I at least know one person that can play this role and like I can pull from my community to be like
Daisy Allen (09:04.514)
Hey, it's perfect for you. Like it's literally tailored for you. Do you want it? And like, just, I try to do that just for like ease and honestly money too. Cause it's like, you know, just like the time and the work to audition can be a little grueling. And I'm just like, I don't know. I just want to work with my community. I want to work with my friends. Of course I do.
Is that sort of how the cast and kind of rolled out with a roller baby is of like the majority were people you knew and friends and then maybe you had to cast a couple random people here and there.
Yes and no. There was a few, like, I don't want to say randos, but like, there was a few, like, people that we, you know, just like auditioned because we still hold auditions and everything like that. But yeah, we definitely wrote it with like a few people in mind or at least like, okay, they could go here or they could go here and we can put this person here. Like it was very much so like we had the lexicon of actors and friends of just like,
Okay, everybody try it. Let's see what works.
I think for roller babies, what was the revision process? Because I think Jamie mentioned you might've had like 180, a 200 page script and then you had to cut it down. from a short to a long feature script to something maybe that was cut down, how did pre-production change the way you approached what might've been your initial baby into something that evolved?
Daisy Allen (10:31.374)
It definitely required reining in. How do I describe this? I'm a creative, right and true, in my brain, yeah, we can make it work. We can make a game show set work. What are you talking about? We can make a dream sequence work. What are you talking about? And so like my writing style is just inevitably very surrealistic and ridiculous.
a lot of the creativity or like the like, what am I trying to say? A lot of the like editing came from like realism, you know, and we just had to be a little realistic about what we could and couldn't do because we were trying to spend as little money as possible.
Yeah, game shows set would be doable, it's just, you know, you'd have to build it or find a place to emulate it.
Yeah, we'd have to build a set. Like everything was outside and then we created this like entirely separate world that we wanted to include and it really had nothing to do with the story. was such a long bit. There was a bit inside the bit. There was a commercial break inside the, but again, I just think it's so funny and like, especially in a comedy, you kind of have to push that envelope. You have to beat the.
the horse so hard that you end up resuscitating it back and then you beat it back to death, of course. But then maybe bring it back, who knows?
Mishu Hilmy (11:59.927)
Naturally.
Do find that comedy is typically the genre you prefer writing in and working in?
Yes and no. feel like the comedy is kind of accidental. The stories that I like to write, this is the best way I can describe it. I like to write a story about like a line cook on a Tuesday night that meets God and has to go through the hero's journey. But he like does not have the bandwidth or the wherewithal to meet God or go through the hero's journey and like
Yeah.
Daisy Allen (12:37.418)
I love making these characters stupid, for lack of a better word, but I find it so much more interesting when characters make the wrong choice than the right one. Because then that's the whole movie.
Right.
Mishu Hilmy (12:54.286)
It's funny. Yeah, I think it's interesting because I know, or at least I think about comedy being suffering. think Michael Delaney would say, suffering is the melody of comedy. So it's like the characters make the wrong choice or just what they think is the right choice, but clearly is going to make them suffer more. It's probably just more entertaining or enjoyable to just see them navigate those obstacles.
Yeah, and there's a quote that I really love. have no idea who said it, but it's, there's nothing funnier than the tears of a clown. Because they're so upset. They're so invested in this hijinks that they themselves put themselves in, you know, like they put themselves in this experience and they're crying over it because they're overwhelmed. And it's, it's hilarious. There's nothing funnier than the tears of a cloud. That's a lot of my writing is like,
just these ridiculous characters that like, yeah, don't have the bandwidth or the wherewithal for really anything. And then they have to go on some crazy quest or whatever.
Given that you also wrote the script and performed in it, did you co-write it or did you predominantly do most of the writing for the Roller Babies?
For Roller Babies, it was like a joint effort. and Edwina co-wrote it together. And that was very fun. I was actually living in Detroit when we wrote it. I had gone to Detroit for a little bit, just, you know, save money for my parents. So I had gone back to Detroit for a little bit and we would write it on FaceTime. We would meet. think it was like every like two or three days we would just sit and write for...
Mishu Hilmy (14:20.248)
Yeah, yeah.
Daisy Allen (14:31.192)
six hours and just like scream ideas at each other and just like, and yeah, our writing style, like us writing together works very, very well. We are like kind of working on like a sort of play together as well, Edwina and I. And again, it's that like, I don't know how we write together so well, but we just scream at each other on FaceTime or in the same room and I wildly type everything.
And that's how we end up with 200 page scripts. Because I'm like, not?
Yeah, so it's sort of like improvising on the page. you find that you end up being the one who sort of, do you take turns kind of transcribing and writing like what happens or is it like you're at the, you're sort of posted up at the computer while they're either moving around the room or, know.
This is no shade to Edwina. I'm just a faster typer. I'm a faster typer. I love her so much, but I can type very quickly. And so I usually end up typing, which I'm happy to as well. Cause you know, I also like, you know, tried to like study how to like write a proper screenplay format and like all that jazz. And so like, yeah, I know how to do the format and I can just type quickly.
Yeah
Mishu Hilmy (15:52.386)
What have you discovered that's different from say writing by yourself to having a creative partnership?
I know I said it was very easy to write 200 pages with Edwina. I can actually write longer by myself. But again, it's, I feel like that's kind of important, you know, like, cause we have that like back and forth of like, okay, explain the joke. And then like, you know, we'll, we'll move on. We'll try a new joke. Like it's no hurt, no foul, but it's just like very much so like, okay, let me hear the joke.
Explain it or totally let's throw it in or like we like, you know, talk about how we can include like this joke or this idea like a little better rather than like, know, fully shutting it down. Whereas like when I'm writing by myself, I call my writing style spaghetti writing. I just throw it on the wall. I throw it on the wall. I wrote a three hour long vampire movie. I think it's amazing, but it's so grueling. It's a grueling text.
When I think of sort of that degree of writing, it's like a high volume amount of writing, but sometimes it's not necessarily revising. So where does the revision approach kind of come from the hyper generative form of creativity? Like if you're generating page after page, maybe at the first or early draft level, like how does a revision come into play for say like a three hour or 180 page, you know, vampire story.
It's really like a red marker reading. Of like, I just go line by line and question like who this person is, like what I want to like express in the story. what's my like, not message, but like, know what I mean, like what scene am I trying to convey? And so I'll like, you know, go scene by scene or in line by line and like kind of justify each character's like.
Mishu Hilmy (17:23.576)
Mmm, huh.
Daisy Allen (17:48.436)
action or like saying something like, is this something that they would actually say? Like, why, why would they say something like this and like try to defend it? And then like, that's where like, a lot of the editing comes in. Cause I'm like, you know, there'll be a scene or two where it's like, okay, this is a cool idea. Like I can see what I was doing, but it just doesn't work. You know what I mean? Cause especially that first draft, we don't look back.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (18:16.268)
No.
We just type until we get to the end. Whenever that ends up being, we just type until the end.
Right, yep.
Mishu Hilmy (18:25.166)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I try to use backspace as little as possible. Like, even if I don't remember something from, like, page 10 on page 15, I'll just write, I don't remember this character's name. We'll fix it later. I'll just, like,
100%, 100%. And I'll change characters' names halfway through. I'm like, actually, this name supports their journey better.
Yeah, yeah. That's great. And then outlining, how do you approach outlining and also how do you approach outlining and say like working in a group writing or with Edwina, where does the outline fit? that part of your process in terms of having a one page beat sheet or 10 page outline? Where does that live?
I think the outline, it comes in the first draft. I like to create a very loose outline, because I'm sort of discovering the characters as I create the piece as well. I'm discovering them and I'm meeting them for the first time too. And so my first drafts are usually very feral and it is sort of me figuring out that outline. I usually have a vague idea of like,
you know, like, where are we going? What's the point in where are we going? I don't really, I try not to get hung up on how we get there just because I feel like it can cripple me sometimes. like, just like, yeah, just give me so much like writer's block that I can like move forward. Cause then my outline just gets more and more detailed every time. Like I'll have a 20 page outline.
Daisy Allen (20:02.252)
And I'm like, okay, I can't make this in two hours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, it's like whatever ultimately, you know, serves the process. I think for some people, the outline is very helpful for others. It's, know, maybe guideposts. I think I'm somewhere in between where I might have a sense of where I want the story to go, but then, you know, 50, 60 pages in, the characters kind of reveal themselves and it, you know, there's maybe a more organic or interesting discovered resolution rather than like the weird contrived thing I might've thought of, you know, as an intellectual exercise.
And that's definitely like, I definitely like use that like intellectual exercise of like, well, how can we say this? Or like, how can we express this? I'll admit, I've gotten obsessed with allegory recently. I love it. I love it so much. And like, I don't know. I like putting myself in my writing and like putting my world in the writing, but it's a little embarrassing sometimes. And so I'm like, okay, we'll put it in space.
It's time.
Daisy Allen (21:03.875)
This is problem I'm having, but we're putting it in space.
I think it's also an interesting, like maybe fear and security of like how much can the audience discover or realize that it is you. I think putting it in space does add a bit of distance, but I imagine if it's very specific and something you've talked to friends or family about, maybe it's a little bit more obvious. Yeah, how do you, other than putting it in space, like how do you approach the, maybe the riskiness or that fearful sensation of like I'm revealing too much of myself on the page.
I think what I try to do when I do put myself in my theater is not the situation necessarily, but the like ethos and the like feeling of that. Like I'm trying to like re-express the like reaction and the like experience that I'm having rather than like.
somebody was, you know, mean to me at work and I'm writing about it. Like, it's like, I try to like look deeper at like, okay, like what emotions were driving this, what emotions were driving this reaction. And like trying to like look at that a little more closely of like what feels similar, what could, you know, like give the audience a similar sensation of my coworker was mean to me today.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, like, have you done a lot of improvising work? Cause it reminds me a lot of like improvisation where, you know, you're making stuff up on the spot and the stage and it's like, how can you pull through your life, but recontextualize it somehow either on stage or like in, you know, a different context. So have you done a fair amount of improvisation work? I imagine being from the Midwest maybe.
Daisy Allen (22:47.022)
A little bit, of course, I've done. I'll admit, I don't really love it. this is me personally. I think I'm a Capricorn. I think I want that control. And so like, I love the jazz, I love the creativity, but like, when I'm ready to like present or like create something, I want it to be clear. I still want it to be like, this is the ideal. Let's execute it. Let's see it.
Yeah.
Daisy Allen (23:18.254)
Cause I do like that like a little bit of improvisation and like almost like jazzness, jazziness of it where it's just like, yeah, it's free, it's wild, it's art, it's whatever it's gonna be. And I think that's very beautiful. And like, I think some people are so brave to be able to do that, but I love rehearsal. I love multiple drafts as well. I'll write a three hour draft, but then I'll write like an hour and a half long too.
I do relate to that kind of control element where, you know, incredible jazz musicians, like they're incredible because they rehearse and they practice and they're really, you know, they're familiar with the canon of work and their scales while there might be some, you know, quote unquote improvisers or jazz musicians who don't put in the hours. So then it's like, what is this? What is this mess we're watching? It's like, so think there's more messy kind of jazz or improvisation that doesn't give that. Maybe it's just also like a liking that polish or that clarity that comes with.
a little bit more preparation. Like my hang up was I only want to improvise in shows that I directed, which is like not the best form because like how can I direct myself improvising? So.
You don't do that much. mean, you're the director. Everything you improvise is correct.
Right, exactly, exactly. Cool. Yeah, and then sort of like when it came to being on set for Roller Babies, given that you and Edwina wrote it, you know, how did you deal with sort of maybe the acting pressures of wanting to be mostly off book and which lines were like tight lines versus lines that you're like, I don't know, we wrote it then, but we can just, you know, ad lib or massage it on the, you know, the shoot day.
Daisy Allen (24:54.648)
think with comedy, like improv kind of came with just, you know, we wrote this script six months prior. We wrote jokes six months prior. Like we're just kind of getting sick of the delivery. We just needed to try something different. And like, we definitely had a lot of fun with that. And with memorizing the lines, it, I feel like Edwina and I, you know,
this is what we went to school for. Like I have my tips and tricks that like, just make, I don't know how to describe it other than I just make it work. How I memorize is I just like write it over and over again. And so like, it was definitely that like 10 days. It was like, okay, what are our pages? I'm gonna write it down three times and then I'm fine.
Yeah, yeah. Like how was, like did you let go sort of the writer brain and then when it came to those shoot days, you're like, I'm just focusing on getting as much of the text, memorizing as much of that and then being present on set or were you having to like revise sort of plot questions on certain shoot days?
not really like revising like plot questions or things like that. I feel like we got a community together that
I don't know what language Roller Baby is in, but we somehow found a group of people that just all spoke it. They all understood like Matthew Freer, Jamie Crevin, and like everybody just like on the crew and the cast was like, no, I get it. Yeah, makes sense. And so it was really, it was really fun to like kind of like.
Daisy Allen (26:31.316)
work in this community and again, like working off this like unanimous base knowledge that we all just like quietly had of the references and the world that we had created. We all kind of just understood it. And it was the stars aligned. It was beautiful. It was perfect. With like taking away the writer's brain, it was very interesting to experience. Like Jamie would talk about the writing, you know, like she would talk about the writing as if
the writers weren't in the room, which is fine, you know, because we know we wrote it and everything, but she would talk about it like as separate and the way she interpreted the text a lot of times was different than how I had written it. It was really, really interesting to like see and experience that for the first time, because like with coming over, I was sort of directing and like kind of controlling everything. so
my vision was abundantly clear, you know, like I made it abundantly clear. with like Jamie, she took the text and she knew all the context and she knew Edwina and I, of course, but she still like interpreted it and like really dug into the text, which is like, just this like euphoric strange feeling as a writer. Cause I'm like, I was 23 at the time, like, what?
You read that into it? my gosh. Like I didn't even attend for that like emotional nuance, but apply it please.
I think that's where the spirit of collaboration comes into play, where it's like you can see all the different perspectives people bring, even though you might have originated in the writing capacity and then to see how a director will expand or enrich and deepen it. Then in the performance, were there things that either Jamie helped you discover or through just running the lines and running the scene that while performing you discovered that you weren't necessarily aware of when you were writing?
Daisy Allen (28:29.432)
think it was a lot of like how rich and deep the relationship between the two lead characters is. Because we applied ourselves, like we both grew up in Metro Detroit, so we would talk about party stores and like they say like little weird things, so like little Detroit-isms. It's pieces of ourselves and like pieces of our true relationship that like really deepened it, but we don't.
knowledge or realize because you know we're just besties you know we just you know hang out have a great time and like understand each other of course but like not to that like degree as like a spectator would you know
I think that's maybe one of the joys of getting to embody something that is written or that you've written is to discover and see maybe more worlds or nuance to play within.
And it is just so strange to to like yeah see and experience this like a group of 15 people Just watching me and Edwina be friends
Right, right. That's great. So yeah, it's clearly kind of going through the editing process. Like as, you know, probably imagine a co-producer and somebody who wrote it, like how much space have you been giving the kind of the post-production team to take care of that? Like where have you been sitting in on seeing maybe cuts or versions? Are you pretty far removed and say, Hey, I just want to see like a near picture lock before, you know, giving more feedback.
Daisy Allen (30:00.238)
I've seen bits and pieces of Roller Babies and every time it like reignites my excitement for it. Because again, not that I dislike Roller Babies by any means, but it's again that thing of like, we wrote these jokes four or five years ago. I have heard these jokes six million times. And it's been nice to step away from that process, we'll like, Edwina and I will see updates every once in a while.
great.
Daisy Allen (30:29.438)
And again, it's that like reinterpretation of the text and like Jamie Creppen and Matthew Freer are doing fantastic work editing. And again, they're like taking this jigsaw puzzle and you know, some of the pieces they're like, you know, jamming together in different ways that like even Adina and I didn't write or like anticipate. And so we like kind of get to see this new film each time and it's really exciting and like.
It revitalizes that because I forget about the jokes finally and we rework them a little bit. But it's been nice to be a little separate from it. I like my little homework assignments because again, I'm a visual artist and so I'll get a list of things like, hey, we need this little drawing symbol, can you do this? And I'm like, yes, please, thank God. Because I still want to be involved, but like,
Even with coming over, I was the only person involved in post-production and that quickly got old. Very quickly, I struggled to do a lot of it alone and that's what coming over kind of taught me was like, film is a collaborative art form. Whether you like it or not, you need other people to help.
Right, right.
Daisy Allen (31:50.158)
I'm thankful that my community was so helpful with the film, but just with editing and giving myself challenges, I realized, okay, I don't need to do sound ever again. I figured it out. I don't need to do it ever again, though. That is not a job I want. And realizing the hats that I do and don't want to wear, I guess.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like a great discovery. I'm similar. Like I, love editing, but I don't like sound mixing, sound mastering. I don't think I have any sort of ear skill for it, but at the indie sort of low budget level, we all learn sort of all the tools that we can use, but then it's nice to strip that away and go, I don't need to be a control freak or this isn't nourishing for me. So I need to learn to like, let it go and either pay someone else to do it or find a collaborator who's want is just genuinely overjoyed to take care of it.
And that's like that beauty of community is like once you know you have the animators you have the like sound engineers you meet all these people which like you know I'm you're always trying to expand your network, but like yeah once you meet all these people it becomes easy and it becomes like you know cast of characters that you can just like always work with and I'm I'm thankful that I'm developing that but you know, there's still like
rolls and holes that need to be filled and things.
When it comes to say like performing, how have you at least lately been balancing maybe your primary kind of creative outlet of writing or other visual art and then also like auditioning and performing? Where does like your sort of acting, performing, you know, fit in with your sort of creative cycle right now?
Daisy Allen (33:29.166)
I'll admit I don't strive to perform anymore. Like I'm not fighting for it. I quickly realized that like to make those dreams happen, to make that like dream happen, you have to sacrifice, you know, so much of yourself and so much of your time to just auditions. Whereas like, I love performing. I think it's very fun, but I think
Yeah.
Daisy Allen (33:58.478)
creating is so much more fulfilling and so much more fun to me. And there's absolutely no hate to any actors or performers out there that love to interpret work, but I want to create the work to interpret now. I think part of it's just me getting older and things like that. But again, with the performance, I don't seek it out.
but I love being an extra on set. Like, you know, with Room 19, past year they were doing a lot of short films and it was like, hey, we need somebody. I was happy too. It was just some fun to do and be a part of it and a part of the world. And yeah, you just like meet people and it's just like, so cool. And some of them are actors and some of them are like me where it's like, no, I just like film. I just like hang it out, you know?
you
Mishu Hilmy (34:53.518)
Yeah. Given that you did, let's say, study musical theater where I imagine there might have been for a brief period that dream of musical theater or performance life, how did you navigate the evolution of, at one point, maybe that was the dream, the excitement to really make a living performing to go, actually, I've evolved into a different mindset. How did you navigate that transformation?
funny you say transformation, because it was a little bit with my transition in transitioning into a woman. I was very adamant. I kept auditioning, kept auditioning. And even though trans women were becoming mainstream, were part of the world, a part of society, and people are realizing that, the roles are not very good. And it was either like,
This is obviously a fallacy, but a lot of the roles were either some gut-wrenching, getting murdered, horrible thing happened to me, and it was written by a boy, so it's even grosser, or it's written by a trans woman, and a lot of them are just so self-deprecating. It's just so self-deprecating, and there's so much hate and pain in the...
theater for trans women. And so like a lot of what Edwina and I write and like all my characters, like they're trans, I'm trans, that's just how it's gonna be. But like it's not the narrative device. And I didn't wanna be that, I don't wanna be a narrative device, I just wanna be, you know, a silly character skating along Lake Shore. And yes, I'm.
trans and like that informs some of my decisions, but it isn't informing the plot. Right. And I think that's where I like kind of struggled and like, you know, started writing more because I was, I just wanted a role that I wanted to do. And then I just fell deeper and deeper in love with writing and realizing like this is a really good outlet to create and express myself. like performing in theater is
Mishu Hilmy (36:57.848)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Daisy Allen (37:11.49)
performing and collaborating with somebody else's mission, whereas I have a vision too.
think with performing, there's a lot of like A, needing to be chosen, like waiting on that, and then B, you know, serving, you know, someone or something else or an audience, you know, you can always write something without an audience in mind. And I think that's the beauty of writing work. The process in and of itself can be freeing and satisfying even if no one ever sees it versus like to perform to act is like, I need to be chosen. I need to like go out and like audition and then like put myself out for maybe a script that's dubious or it's like a
Is this kind of like more self-dictimization or it's all about identity versus story and to go, know, as an artist, you know, these stories and perspectives are valid, but maybe you don't get as much joy where it's all about kind of the narrative device of an identity rather than I just want to exist in this world as this kind of character.
Yeah, I wanna act, I wanna play pretend. And that's another thing of just like overarching. I am so bored with realism. Like in general, I just, I wanna play pretend. I don't wanna be a real thing.
And like, did you say like, and Jamie and Edwina have conversations around style when it came to say roller babies? Cause I imagine it's maybe leaning more, not necessarily a hyper realistic style. I I haven't seen cuts of it, but you know, like how, how did you discuss performance style when it came to say that or other works?
Daisy Allen (38:41.858)
I think it was a lot of trial and error. We had a lot of readings as well that we would do. And so it was a lot of trying to, testing out the delivery of some of these jokes of how we describe them. It was a lot of that. And we kind of just slowly but surely developed these characters. I'll admit they really are just hyperbolized versions of myself and Edwina.
Like it's really just like the worst, most annoying aspects of ourselves just magnified onto a moving picture.
And then, like, how are you with sort of like the waiting game? So this project's clearly not necessarily stalled, but it's in a pause because it's just going through the natural post-production process. So where's your head at when it comes to say, like, what you're writing, what you're excited about, kind of other things that are on your mind, whether it's, you know, art making or writing or kind of screenwriting? Like, what's been taking your focus recently?
Recently I've been like I've been writing a lot of course but I've been like thinking a lot about the difference between my art being work and my art being a hobby if that makes sense because I've mentioned a few times I'm a visual artist and like I like to write comics too and cool but that is like that's the zero audience that's for no audience in mind that is
truly just for me and remembering that it can be that. And even with my writing, filmmaking too, where it's like, I have a day job, this is my after-school activity. And so I still want to keep it fun. And that's what I've been kind of focusing on, not laboring myself over making this poetic masterpiece.
Daisy Allen (40:39.31)
If I have an idea, I want to make it cheap and simple and just express this idea, this feeling, this emotion. I finished coming over, I'm putting it through the ringer in the film festivals. And now I'm at a point where I'm like, do I want to make another one by myself? I know I said 20 minutes ago, it was so hard and it is so hard. But I'm like, do I want to do that again?
And again, it's just this like, it's the hobby short film where I'm like, I just want to do this alone in my apartment. Like I just love making films. love creating. love doing it. And so like, yeah, trying to like find that fine line of like, okay, this is a hobby. This is of course what I want to do when I grow up and what I would love to focus all of my attention on. But
Right.
while I have so little time, I still want to enjoy it. I still want to do it and like, you know, have fun with it, I guess.
Are there things like maybe as like merely at the writing level, like are there practical things you do that make the experience funner? I'm just curious, like how do you inject play or whimsy or fun into what can sometimes be like, shit, I gotta sit down, you know, the energy book. I haven't written in a couple of days. I better do this.
Daisy Allen (41:59.734)
If I'm getting bored or sick of a certain task, I have no ideas to write. Like, I don't want to, like, write anything. Like, I have nothing new. But I still, like, you know, have these images in my head, have this, I still have this film in my head and I want to work on it. That's where, like, a lot of the visual art will come in. I'll start to storyboard it. I'm like, why not? What does a shot look like? Let's make it a comic.
and so like I'll, I'll do a lot of that where I like, or is that what it's called? Storyboarding?
Yeah, storyboard or pre-vis, yeah, we draw little, you know.
Yeah. Where you like kind of just shot the frame. So I'll do that a lot and like, you know, I'll experiment too with like, you know, color and like, okay, what do I want this to look like? Let's refine the image in my head or like each project. I kind of try and give myself a little challenge. Like this short film that I'm like thinking about making in my apartment. I want to like experiment with miniatures.
Yeah.
Daisy Allen (43:05.078)
I want to experiment with like, you know, cause sci-fi is such an expensive genre. Right. And so I've been like, you know, I have all these, you know, pictures of stars and space and, know, like extravagance in my head that I cannot afford. And so I've been thinking a lot of like, you know, just like, how, how would I make this shot for 10 years?
Yeah, yeah
And like, again, it's like, you know, a spaceship crashing. Like, how would I make a spaceship crashing for $10? And I've been thinking about it. I think my answer is miniatures. So that's what I want to try.
Yeah, that's cool. And then it sort of kind of forces a style and maybe even a DIY vibe, but still I think there's a certain playfulness and fun there of like, all right, these are the constraints I have. So it's not about maybe virtuosity, but maybe it's about play or like, how can I make this $10 space crash be either as fun or interesting or playful as possible given that it's clearly made out of, you know, $10 worth of material.
Yeah, it's a tin can in a water tank or something. But yeah, it's so fun too, because it's like, you know, I can sit and stare and watch paint dry. And in my head, I'm like, okay, I would try this. And like, no, that wouldn't actually work. Let's try something else. But again, I'm like sitting and staring out the window.
Mishu Hilmy (44:29.678)
like where does sort of consistency or routine play into your creative practice? Like, do you have a certain area in your apartment that you're like, this is where I tend to write? Like, do you have a set kind of expectation of yourself of trying to do like one minute of X a day? Like, where does that live consistency routine when it comes to either writing or visual art making?
I I try to write when I'm inspired. If I have an idea, let's mull it over, let's get it on the page, let's just see it, you know, let's try it. And so I will end up, you know, spending most of my time after work, okay, I have this idea at work, let's type it out, let's see what's up. And you know, some days I don't have ideas, but I feel like when the muscle is there, I flex it.
And that's, I feel like that's what's like kind of helped me, you know, continue to be creative and continue to like hold on to these ideas is like, okay, I have an idea. Let's, let's fuck around and find out. Let's experiment. Let's see. And again, you know, there are days where I'm like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna watch something stupid on TV when I get home from work and I'm not gonna do anything. And I think that's perfectly okay too.
Cause I do, I try to write every day of course, but I also try not to like rake myself over the coals if I don't. I've been trying to like relearn that like, you know, capitalist mindset of like constant production and like output of content. Cause I'm not creating content, I'm creating a work of art, you know, like that's not.
a regular thing, it's divine and you seize it when you can.
Daisy Allen (46:20.266)
It's the same thing with that like hobbies and work, like that comparing the two.
Totally.
Yeah, I won't write for a few days and then I'll write for a week and I'll be like, okay, well now you have to write today. And I don't. I really don't.
think it's kind of a challenge, especially if you come from maybe a background, say, of maybe theater work or studying work, where there might be cohorts of very ambitious or focused people, and that kind of drive can easily become maybe the default expectation of yourself of like, I was around all these people in theater school, this cohort of very ambitious, smart people, so I should be doing them. And also like content-wise, it's like we have all these platforms that are sort of these slot machines of
attention and platforming, or it's like, well, I know if I just make this stuff every day, I could maybe find an algorithmic sweet spot and suddenly, you know, blow up my, my presence on these platforms. So it kind of like reinforces that productive mindset of like, give more, like give more value to these platforms. So you can kind of expand.
Daisy Allen (47:26.638)
remember in COVID one time, I convinced myself I was gonna sell art on Instagram. And so I would make a drawing every day. they're all these posts are archived now. But you can just like slowly see as you scroll up, just like I put my entire soul into the first one. And then maybe I had like 75 % soul left after the second and then the third and fourth. And it's just like.
I watched it kind of devolve and I hated it because I was like, I can draw just as good as the first time I drew. But it was like I forced myself, I set aside four hours every day to make a full scale color drawing. And it was exhausting. some of the images turned out really good and I ended up redrawing them with more time. But it was like this thing of like,
Yeah, I absolutely could not just like seize this divine inspiration and take advantage of it for four hours every single day. Every single day. Like it just didn't work. You know, it's just not sustainable. I, I do like to like create or like at the very least doodle every day. Like I try to use my mind and like creativity every day.
That's again, I just have six million pictures in my head and we gotta get them out at some point.
I think that's interesting because I think volume is important. It's like volume versus intention. And I think volume is like a very strong and important creative practice. However, if that volume is coming from an intention of like, need to do this, I have to do this, I got to get my content out. I think that might be a stressful intention versus like volume by way of play and experimentation of like, I don't care if this gets sold or blah, blah, blah. I just genuinely want to keep making things out of curiosity.
Mishu Hilmy (49:21.77)
I think that's more of a sustainable approach to volume, I definitely relate where it's like, you get this kind of hair, hair brained idea and it's like, okay, yeah, I'll do this for a whole month or during the lockdown. I'll do this every day and get my bag. And then like three days in, you're like, this is hollowing me out. I feel stressed and disgusted and I don't want to do this anymore.
And it's just like, I'm not even like, my art doesn't even look like my art anymore. Yeah. And it was COVID though. I feel like we all did insane things to make money.
Yeah
Mishu Hilmy (49:51.36)
It's kind of like a blackout, blackout time of like, what's going on here? Like, how do you relate to writing or creativity or even filmmaking given sort of the uncertainty of A, the filmmaking industry, B, the creative industry, and C, like the world we live in? Like, how do you approach staying consistent and doing the work in such a volatile and uncertain world?
I, in regards to like the industry as a whole, like Hollywood industry, is there across the country, I am not making those movies. It's terrible, but I couldn't care less about that grand industry, because I will always create. I will, no matter, you know, who is doing it, I will continue to do it. I would like to.
Yeah.
Daisy Allen (50:40.366)
make art and express myself and just tell stories and like teach lessons in ways that aren't you know a textbook because I like I said earlier I love an allegory I don't learn my lesson unless it's an Aesop's fable I need a little animal to teach me yeah I feel like the certainty the uncertainty of the world I mean obviously it frightens me but
I have the certainty in myself that I will always do this. If I have 10 or 10,000 or whatever, like, I'll try my best to make it work. I was the kid with the camcorder in elementary school even, like, I was always making movies.
How, in terms of perspective wise, ethos wise, like how do you kind of consciously go about like subversion or taking risks in the work you make? Like, is this an active creative conceit or do you think about risk taking a subversion?
focus on my craft. I try to focus on the craft, you know, like I'm excited to show off like even experiments that I have or ideas that I have. I'm happy to experiment or like, yeah, show them off. Because at the end of the day, they are truly experiments, you know, like it's all of my work is experimental because I did not go to film school. I do not know what I'm doing. And so it's a lot of me just trying something and if it works really well.
I'll keep doing it and if it doesn't, I'll like, you know, omit it. But I feel like it's a lot of just like, yeah, that trial and error.
Mishu Hilmy (52:17.838)
there anything like you're excited about short term, whether it's something you're making, working on, thinking about that you want to kind of share or chat through?
You know, I feel like all of my projects are at this like simmer phase. Like I really have nothing exciting in the works. I, you know, I put coming over through the ringer of film festivals, but we're still, you know, waiting to hear back on some of them. I really have no new information on that. And then yeah, I might make a short film this winter. I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
It sounds fun and I want to make a sci-fi, but again, they're very expensive, so it's going to require experiments and screen tests.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's fun. Yeah. And then with like the short films, how have you been dealing with sort of the, the, the rigor, maybe the kind of the selections and the non selections of like festivals you're excited about, like what's been that sort of process for you and how have you been kind of changing your thoughts when it comes to say submitting and waiting and kind of hearing, you know, exciting news or disappointing news.
Daisy Allen (53:20.844)
I think it's reminding myself like what art is and like what a real film would be. again, that like relearning of the capitalist mindset of like, if this film gets into film festivals, if it gets into every single one, my God, amazing, probably won't happen. If it gets into none, a bummer. But like that realization of like, no, this is still.
a real piece of art that I created. took the time, I took the focus and like the numbers game, whether it worked to my favor, didn't. It's, you know, still a real work of art and like relearning the capitalist mentality of like, I need the laurels. It's not a film. Like it's not a real film unless, you know, I get these things, but it's, it's really like, I've been asking myself, like who created these goal posts that I'm
you know, like, with and nine times out of ten it's either me or the man and we don't care about the man.
It's interesting how that sort of the kind of the hierarchy of say film festivals or even just distribution can trigger the default thinking around like that ego validation. Well, obviously I want more, I want more laurels and more thumbs up, but really it's like the labor was the reward. Like no one, no film festival can take away the joy or the effort you put into like making that piece. But it's just like, I think it's very seductive to go like, well, I have this thing that exists and then the productivity of the capitalism, capitalistic mindsets like.
Well then yeah, of course I want, I want everything. I want everyone to think this is a good stuff.
Daisy Allen (54:58.872)
This is the thing. It doesn't really matter, you know? to sell it and yeah, and just like, and get it out there. And like, I've been trying to like avoid that mentality of like, yeah, just obsessing with like getting as many people to see it. Cause it's like, I don't know. I feel like my stories and my ideas are very like niche and like a little ridiculous at times. But I think it has an audience somewhere and like the four or five.
film festivals I submitted to is not going to be my entire audience ever. And that's kind of what I'm like trying to realize too, is like what making a film looks like and how we don't have to do that, if that makes sense. Like I think so often of like, not even that like I'm trying to make a film as cheap as possible, but I'm, I'm a theater artist, you know, like if we need a puppet.
let's use a puppet. If we need some shadow work, let's use some shadow work. Like, I love that. I love that creativity. And I think that's what like, makes the art, the art and creative is the craft and like the like inception of it.
100 % agree. Well, Daisy, it's been so nice getting to talk and chat this past hour. I'm so grateful. Yeah, we got to connect.
Yes, thank you so much for having me. This is fantastic.
Mishu Hilmy (56:26.848)
you
Mishu Hilmy (56:31.886)
Before setting off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little mischief motivation. Let's get into a prompt, idea, dump, and sort. This is for the...
Heavy idea generators out there, much like myself. Just take five minutes to jot down every stray idea you've had in your head onto a page, then quickly label each one, whether it be a film idea, book idea, poem idea, an illustration idea, whatever it is. Just take a few minutes, five minutes to just put all those floating ideas down into a page and give it a shot. Maybe try a spreadsheet if that's something you're into, but grab a piece of paper and just write down floating ideas.
and sort them. And maybe if you're feeling daring, circle one and try to do it within the next seven days. All right, that's it from me. I'll talk to you later.