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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
For me personally, if I like the professor as a person, it makes all the difference. So them being approachable and caring about what they're doing makes me like them, and then I want to do better in the class.
Narrator:This is the Transform Your Teaching Podcast. The Transform Your Teaching Podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio.
Ryan:Hello, and welcome to the Transform Your Teaching podcast. In today's episode, Dr. Jared Pyles and Dr. Rob McDole chat with two students to get their perspective on some educational best practices. Thanks for listening.
Jared:Just wanna say thank you both for, coming back. We appreciate that. Daniel and Lauren are back with us, and I don't wanna give you guys too big of an ego But the first episode, because we're doing two episodes of our last recording, is the highest performing episode we've ever had on this podcast by leaps and bounds. So
Rob:So we what we're trying to figure out Is why. Why?
Jared:Guys are podcast gold, and we don't know why. We appreciate it. I mean, we don't do it for the numbers or anything like that. But Did you go
Rob:out and tell all your friends that you were on a podcast and they were all listening?
Daniel:My dad listened to it, and I guess some people in my family may have listened to it.
Lauren:I told, like,
Rob:three of
Jared:my close friends and, still like doing
Rob:Yeah. We've got yeah. The number of listens is kinda off the off the chart.
Jared:It's a huge outlier. But, yeah, thanks for coming back or, you know, we'll we'll we'll send you guys a check-in the mail for the, your cut to the profits, if that's cool with you. Yeah. You'll get zero you'll get 0% over zero.
Rob:Just our love, thanks, and adoration.
Jared:So, again, here's what we're gonna do. We have a bunch of best practices that research says that students that helps student engagement, enrichment, understanding of content. And we want you guys to let us know whether or not you think they're right or not, just like last time. You haven't seen these ahead of time, so we're just gonna
Rob:start. So we're not gonna tell them what they are?
Jared:No. I mean, we'll tell them when we
Daniel:When we ask.
Rob:When we ask. We're not gonna give them a preview.
Jared:No. They don't have any clue of what's coming. Okay. Here we go. You ready for the first one?
Lauren:Yes.
Jared:Alright. First one is on instructor approachability and enthusiasm. Here is what research says: suggests that instructor enthusiasm and accessibility have a significant impact. For you, how does a professor's behavior or passion affect your motivation and engagement in the class? Who wants to go first?
Daniel:I think Lauren wants to go first.
Rob:Okay.
Lauren:That's fine. I definitely think approachability makes a huge impact, especially if if the professor makes it clear that they are approachable from the beginning. So for example, if I, like, email a professor very early on in the semester and have a question, if they email me back with very clear answers and are, like, very kind about it and everything, I'm gonna be much more likely to ask them more questions and to be more engaged in the class. And I'm more likely to like them, honestly. And I think for me personally, if I like the professor as a person, it makes all the difference in how I feel about the class.
Lauren:So them being approachable and caring about what they're doing makes me like them and then I want to do better in the class. So I had a class last semester that I absolutely hated the content. But I loved the professor and he was very approachable and like just a very like fun professor to have in class. And that made a big difference in how I viewed the class. I still didn't mind going and I still wanted to do well, whereas otherwise I would be like, I don't care.
Jared:So an instructor's approachability can overcome your For dislike of the
Lauren:me personally, Sure.
Jared:Okay. I have a follow-up, but let's go to our other side of the table here first.
Daniel:I don't really have a ton of thoughts on this subject, because I'm not really one to approach my professors whether they are, like, my favorite or least favorite professors.
Jared:That surprises me, to be honest with you, knowing you.
Daniel:Yeah. The only time I really go to my professors is, like, after class and I have a question. And so I guess and the only professors I really do that for are professors that have shown when answering, questions during class that they do care about the questions. Like, I've had some professors who answer questions and make you feel like you're dumb, and they're like, obviously it was this answer. Like, did you not just hear the last two sentences I just said?
Rob:Which is a little frustrating, to be honest.
Daniel:Yeah. And I can understand that. Like from a professor's perspective, you just said something and You
Rob:asked the same question.
Daniel:But sometimes, like, I'll ask questions for clarification on something and then they just repeated what they just said. And I like, well, that wasn't helpful the first time. Yeah. But, like, I find it most helpful when professors are willing to stay after class to answer questions because I am a pretty busy person, so going to office hours isn't very helpful for me a lot of times.
Jared:That's accessibility. Mhmm. Yeah. So Yeah. Totally.
Jared:So what makes a professor approachable and accessible? Lauren, you said sending an email and getting a response back. You said, Daniel, you said meeting after class. What other factors, like, can lead up to that? Like, feeling like because you can have someone, like me who's very introverted teaching a class, and I'm an approachable person, at least I feel that way.
Jared:I'm trying to come across that way to students, but if I don't outwardly show that, no one's going to approach me. So how does an instructor get that across without you first making the initiative to do it?
Lauren:This is gonna sound odd, but for me, I think it's the way that they present and carry themselves.
Jared:If
Lauren:that makes sense? Like just them as a person. But it's not like, oh, they're extrovert. It's not really about that. It's more like, like if I have a professor that I know knows my name and then outside of class, if I see them on campus and they say hi to me, like those it's like those little things that can then, like, build up, I guess.
Lauren:Or, like, if a professor I don't know how to describe it, but, like, there are certain professors that, like, try to get to know you even if it's in small ways throughout the semester.
Rob:Mhmm. Ask you questions?
Lauren:Yes. Yeah. Mhmm. Like, ask you questions. They want you to talk in class and But I'm also fairly extroverted, so I don't have as much of an issue with those things as other students might.
Jared:Okay.
Daniel:Or even professors who are willing to ask me questions as well, like before or after class when they just noticed like me coming in and they have extra time. Like I noticed that I'll talk to them more, or professors who are willing to share personal details of things they're doing in the weekend or I don't know, things like that that I'm like wanting to have more of a relationship than just class information as well.
Lauren:Yeah. Going off of that, another thing is if the professor shares about their life in class. Because I think that makes a huge difference for me personally because then I see them as a person and not just, like, a because like a lot of I feel like gen ed professors specifically, in my experience, don't talk about their own life a lot and then I don't feel like I have a relationship at all with them, so it doesn't feel approachable.
Jared:They're not transparent. Yes. I mean, there's some information that instructors want to keep guarded.
Lauren:Right.
Jared:But there's an if they're willing to share something to be more transparent, then do that. Right. Yeah.
Daniel:Yeah. And I also appreciate them developing credibility with what they are teaching. Like, I'm not gonna ask questions about the material unless I've they've demonstrated that they know it well and are able to communicate it clearly.
Jared:How can you tell that as a student?
Daniel:I think the way that they communicate is very like, sometimes there's professors who will only talk at a very high level everything just goes right over my head. Mhmm. But people who are willing to develop my vocabulary to understand what they're talking about, those are professors that I can ask questions because I know that they're gonna come and understand it so that I can or explain it in a way that I can understand well and also communicate with my friends as well.
Jared:So coming down to your level, that kind of a thing. Yes.
Lauren:Okay.
Jared:Alright. Next one. Assessment methods.
Rob:So beyond just feedback, you know, there are very various assessment methods that you have probably experienced at your time here at Cedarville. Right? Ranging from projects, presentations, quizzes, exams. They all impact learning differently. How do you feel about the different types of assessments that have been used in your courses?
Rob:And do you think they accurately reflect your understanding and progress in any of your courses? Are you able to ascertain their effectiveness? We'll go with Daniel since Lauren went last time.
Daniel:This one's a little trickier for me to think through because there is a lot of different types of assessments. And so I'm just trying to think through how each one has helped me, like one, make sure that I remember all the material that we've learned throughout a course. Like my major is not a very like exam heavy major. It's more focused on, like, reading throughout the semester. And so it's hard to necessarily give an exam that covers every single thing we've covered throughout the semester.
Daniel:And so most of my exams are focused on, like, essay questions Mhmm. Which I have found helpful for studying those because they'll give me different prompts to just write out answers to these essay questions. Right. And I found that to be helpful to just work through my thoughts and how to communicate it and teach it Mhmm. Almost to other people, like show that I remember.
Daniel:I don't necessarily find, like, multiple choice exams as helpful because I can normally go into those pretty confident without studying a ton. Because I can just
Rob:Kinda guess.
Daniel:Yeah. Yeah, don't know if that really answers your question though as much. Because I don't really have a ton of projects in my major either.
Rob:Okay. I'll come back to that in a second, but Lauren?
Lauren:Okay. I would say I do have a lot of projects in my major, and I would say that those are probably the most helpful for me personally. But I'm also like a very hands on person. So if I'm gonna learn, I have to do it myself. So I think that projects teach me the most and reflect the most of what I've learned.
Lauren:I think tests and quizzes do not reflect well at all. I'm not a great test taker. I can't go into a multiple choice exam not studying. But if I study, I can do well, if that makes sense. I can apply myself really well if I study.
Lauren:However, I will study, I can get a 100 and then have no idea what was on that. So I don't think it's a good reflection of what I've learned in that way. Not necessarily because I don't do well, but just because I'm going to forget it because it's not gonna stick in my brain that way. I don't think like that. Mhmm.
Lauren:I know some people do, so I don't know that I'm necessarily the best person to ask. But I think if I have a project on it and I'm applying it to something I actually am going to use in the future and think about in the future, it helps a lot.
Rob:So what's interesting here from what I'm hearing from both of you, you're definitely saying projects. You kinda said that a little bit. A little bit in the sense of the essays. So essays are allowing you to move through not necessarily in the exam time, but in the preparation for the exam.
Daniel:Yeah. I think it helps me to be able to try to teach someone almost, even if it's just writing it out on a piece of paper, not not actually telling a person. Okay. Like, if I can teach the material, I makes me actually remember try to remember the material that we actually learned.
Rob:So that's a type of a project
Lauren:Mhmm.
Rob:Really. Because you're putting that onus on yourself to try to put it in a and reformulate it in such a way that it makes sense to someone else. And the more you go through that, the more you create deep linking. I would say to you, Lauren, the reason why you're not remembering those things when you're studying for the exam is probably because you're not studying and recalling that material on an ongoing basis, and you're probably waiting till the last minute to study, and hypothalami are really good at linking for you for a short period of time. Mhmm.
Rob:There's like a twenty four to forty eight hour window where you do that kind of study where you can keep it in short term memory long enough, to be able to do a test like that. And then you can walk away from it and boom, it's gone. And if somebody asks you the same questions that you got a 100 on, you would probably fail the exam.
Lauren:Correct.
Rob:Yeah. I I know because I've been there. Been there, done that. I think every single person. I think, you know, well, maybe not.
Rob:I can't speak for Jared. I just know that I spend a lot of my exams doing that very thing, sometimes five minutes before the exam.
Jared:See, I couldn't do that.
Lauren:Yeah. I can't do five minutes. I can do an hour before.
Jared:I I I had to have plenty of time. And for speaking of me as a student twenty five years ago, I'm old. I'm so old. Yeah. I I had to spend if if if I studied, I would have to have given myself several days to do it, to study for a multiple choice exam.
Jared:Which makes me wonder, like, do you guys see value in multiple choice matching those types of objective assessments? And if so, where do we put it and where do we not put it?
Lauren:I think there are certain values to it, but not I don't think there is value to it in the context that we're using it in in a college setting. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Jared:It does. Keep going
Lauren:though. So like, for example, I think there is value to it in, honestly, the ACT. A lot of other education majors would cancel me for saying that. But I think because you're it's showing a certain type of skill. For example, Daniel was talking about how good he is at being able to look at the multiple choice and use process of elimination.
Lauren:I am not good at that. So I'm someone that doesn't naturally have that skill. So those types of tests do show who has that skill and who doesn't, but they don't actually show that because everyone is just getting to that point in a different way. So me and Daniel will get the same score in a certain setting, but it wouldn't show that Daniel has a skill and I don't.
Jared:One student shows their knowledge of the content, the other student knows how to take a test.
Lauren:Yes. And I think those tests are helpful to show, okay, who is good at taking tests? My dad is the same way. He got like a 30 on the ACT and didn't study at all. But I also think that the way our, like, education culture is shifting is changing that too because now you have kids studying for the ACT so those tests still don't show who's good at taking tests anymore because it's shifting.
Lauren:But I think they were once helpful for that and can be. But I don't think that they're valuable in the sense of showing what I'm learning in my college classes.
Jared:Interesting. Daniel?
Daniel:Well, I'm actually not good at the ACT because I like to take my time. I'm not a very fast worker.
Lauren:Okay.
Daniel:So I can do process of elimination, but it takes too long. Maybe I should have I studied more for the don't know. I mean, personally, when I know the exam like a test is multiple choice, I find it hard to be motivated to study as much, because I'm able to recall that kind of information when I see it. If I if I see the right answer, I can remember, oh, yeah, we talked about that in class. But for other exams that are short answer, I know I have to memorize more information or go back through my notes.
Daniel:So I'm able to recall that on a test, if that makes sense. Because it doesn't give me the answer, I actually have to show them that I can remember on my own. So when it comes to, like, is there a value? I think it depends on the person too. Because, like, again, for some people, they do have to go back through their notes to take that test for multiple choice.
Daniel:Whereas for me, I I can recall the information when I see the right answer, if that makes sense. So I feel like it's hard to say yes or no to that kind of question because it does depend on the person. Sure. And I I still don't know where I like, what I think of exams at all in general for classes. Because sometimes I do find value in them, and sometimes it it feels more like just an extra thing we do at the end of the year.
Daniel:Because I've had some classes where we didn't have a final exam, and those were actually the classes I learned the most from.
Lauren:Yep, that's very true.
Daniel:Because it was just more of a project throughout the year. Mhmm.
Jared:Speaking specifically about those final exams, just out of curiosity, what are the types of questions that are on those final exams?
Daniel:Well, I mean, again, it does depend on the class. Sure.
Rob:It's hard
Daniel:for me
Jared:to- Let's just say, in general, what are you more apt to see? Of course, you've already said that your major's probably different.
Rob:Mhmm.
Jared:So you won't see as many types of questions as Lauren will.
Daniel:Yeah, I mean, it can range between, like, different scenario type questions to specific match, like like, what is the like, theological like, what theological framework does this viewpoint fit into? And so I guess it demonstrates that I know enough about the belief system that I'm able to match a concept to a specific
Jared:framework. Example, You're you're given an example
Daniel:This person believes this. What would you classify them as? Yeah. And so I think that's more helpful as a multiple choice, potentially. Sure.
Daniel:But when it comes to like, who wrote this book? Know, Paul, Peter, you know. Or like, when was this book written? Or who was this book written to? Those kinds of things, those are pretty easy.
Daniel:So facts.
Rob:So you have objective facts, and
Daniel:then you have more cons conceptual.
Rob:Conceptual application and then probably is at least you should be probably getting into more synthesis Mhmm. When you're in your upper level courses.
Daniel:Yeah. So like normally exams have like my exams have like 30 multiple choice or something like that with including some true false matching and then ends with a couple essay questions. I feel like those types of exams are better for formative assessment, low stakes quizzing. You and I
Rob:have been over and over on this. Yeah. Students should get, you know, grades for effort in doing them and not in whether they got the questions right or wrong, but did they go through it? So to me, that's where those things belong. I think they're great tools for review of factual things and even principles for that matter, but recall and then having that be at the end the summative.
Jared:Yep. It all comes back to Bloom's. Mhmm. You can't do higher level thinking and understanding in a multiple choice true false exam. You just can't I should disclaimer this.
Jared:This is my opinion. But if that's all you're aiming for, then fire away at that.
Rob:Yeah. Yeah.
Jared:Go right ahead. But if you're wanting higher level stuff, you can't you can't
Rob:rely I on mean, some of our courses, that that is Yeah. Absolutely. That's exactly what needs to happen there.
Jared:Yeah. That's a course that's like an intro or a survey course that just we're getting terms and we're trying to make sure these students know their terms before they go on. By all means. Yeah.
Ryan:Be on the lookout for our next episode on student perspectives. A big thanks again to Lauren and Daniel for their willingness to come on the show. It was great to hear from them about the importance of relationships with their professors and their evaluation of assessments used in their classes. If you have any questions about anything that we talked about in this episode, feel free to reach out to us at ctlpodcast@cedarville.edu. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn.
Ryan:A link is in our show notes. Don't forget to check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focussquad. Thanks for listening.