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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan,
joined as always by my
friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.
Will, Schroeder will, we're back
and it has been a long minute.
We normally push pause in
December, but we took an extra
couple of snow days in January
and we're, we're finally back.
It feels good.
Yeah.
Yeah, man, it's, it's been
like almost two months.
I was getting set up for this
call and I was like, what's
everything I need to do?
I kind of forgot about all this.
And, uh,
I've grown and shorn two
beards since the last time
we we played this game.
And how apropos, uh, that we're,
we're gonna talk about today
is that like we've optimized
efficiency into our workflows
and we've optimized things like
human connection and talking to
other people right out of it.
You know, we got faster.
But I think we also got
lonelier and I'd love to make
today about exploring how
that happened, but then also
about like how do we buy some
humanity back on purpose?
At this point,
when we were putting this
article together, like, you
know, for this podcast, I was
thinking to myself, you know,
we've been talking about remote
work and you know, kind of like
this, that AI marketplace and
we are big proponents of it.
A hundred percent
we're also reasonable people.
Yeah.
And, and, and we're looking
at it and we're saying, huh.
And again, having been
off for two months, right.
You know, again, we were off
in, in December, we were off
in January, and I was like,
I don't even have the tools.
Like, you know when, when
you and I podcast, right?
Yeah.
I get to see you and
talk to you, whatever.
And obviously you talking
throughout the week, but it's
one of the few times in the
week that you and I spend,
you know, next to an hour
together doing our thing.
That's it.
Right.
I don't podcast
with anybody else.
I don't see the rest
of our team whatsoever.
Right.
That's exactly
right.
Right.
Yeah.
Other than a couple
Zoom calls and
this is our social time.
Yeah.
And, and, and I think it's been
years now since COVID, it's
been like five years since,
you know, the start of COVID.
Yeah.
And I think the novelty of being
able to, to come downstairs
in your pajamas and work is
still great, but the part
that comes with not talking
to anybody else, like, like,
uh, seeing a human presence
that's not your family.
Yeah.
Or like.
Days, weeks on end is starting
to get gnarly and I think
it is.
What's triggered it more for
me is the amount of time that
I'm spending with ai, which is
now taking human interaction.
Totally off the table.
Dude, this is getting
a little scary.
Like this is not a good thing.
How are you seeing it?
A lot of times spent chatting
with not a person, but kinda
sort of feels like it at times.
Right.
Do you remember when
you noticed like.
In the name of productivity
you had started subtracting
people from your day.
Do you remember like there, was
there a point at which it was
like the balance kind of tipped
and you're like, oh shit, like
this is actually happening?
Yeah, it's actually pre COVID.
It's actually when we were
all back in the office.
Okay.
When we all had all moved
to Slack as our primary like
chat communications tool.
Yeah.
Our office used to be so goddamn
loud because it was a completely
open office and so like to
talk to chat with somebody,
you had to chat with them.
You literally had to talk 'em.
And then within, call it six
months of moving to Slack,
our communication was faster.
Like you could talk to a
whole bunch of people at the
same time, but our office
was like a library, right?
You'd have no idea that all
these people worked there
because other than like a
quick like giggle over like a
meme or something like that,
right?
There wasn't a single
word, and I was like, hmm.
It doesn't feel right.
I remember a very specific
moment at which I realized
that we had turned the corner
on something kinda weird.
You remember our desks when we
went to the open plan, our desk
sat right beside each other.
Yep.
By a little column between us,
but we could literally reach
out and touch each other.
Yep.
Somebody walked up to my desk
at one point and was like, Hey,
do you have a couple minutes?
And I had been sitting
there silently for.
15 or 20 minutes, I'm sure.
I don't remember.
They sat directly across.
Yeah.
So they were, they were
staring at me and finally
came over and said, Hey, do
you have a couple minutes?
And I said, yeah,
I'm talking to Will.
And they, I remember them
like, they looked at you.
They looked back at me
and they're like, huh.
Right.
I was like, oh yeah, I sort of
am and I'm not at the same time.
And I remember that was
the moment for me where I
was like, okay, this is,
this is a little strange.
Hours on end and
not utter a word.
And again, that's
just where it started.
And dude, it's gotten way worse.
Right?
Way, way
worse.
And now we're not in
an office together.
And again, I'm spending,
we'll dig into this.
I'm spending four to five
to six solid hours per day.
Yes.
Talking to GPT or you
know, whatever, uh, chat
interface I'm using.
So I'm not even talking
to humans anymore.
Yeah.
Now.
It is wildly effective.
It is wildly productive.
But when I get up outta my
chair at the end of the day and
I go talk to my wife about how
the day went, I'm like, huh.
I don't have like a single funny
story to tell you, or a quip
or, or anything else like that.
There's one time GPT
said like nothing, right?
I gotta imagine if, if it's
wearing on me, it's definitely
got gotta be wearing on a lot
of other people who never had
those connections to begin with.
Right?
Yeah.
So I think that one, one
thing, maybe they don't
notice it as strongly, but
that doesn't make it any less
dangerous, I don't think.
Right.
So I, I, I was thinking about
this the other day, like
all of the early stage solo
founders out there who are just
literally on their own, right?
There isn't another
teammate to talk to.
What does that look like?
Right?
So on one hand, I guess
you could say, well, at
least there's something.
Thing to talk to now, but I
think it's a big challenge.
You know, and look, I
have definitely talked
about on the podcast, even
when we left the physical
office environment, right?
Specifically when I left and,
and you know, it was before we
were actually outta the office,
but we were only in the office
two days a week at that point.
I left and, and went to
Florida, and so I was
physically outta the office.
And one of the things that I
noticed was, as a bit of an
empathic introvert, being in
an office meant overhearing
lots of things and getting
involved in lots of things.
Yeah.
And starting to carry
emotional weight and stuff
for a lot of other people.
And so there was this
benefit to, to being outside.
And I remember thinking at
the time, I was like, man,
I've optimized interruptions
out of my and and emotional
baggage outta my calendar.
That's awesome.
I also optimized.
Connections straight
outta my life, which
is you don't feel that.
You feel the benefit.
Immediately.
I felt the benefit in me.
I was like, wow, this is, I
have so much more energy now.
I'm not drugged down by
all these other side convos
and all this other stuff.
And at some point you go,
damn, those were actually.
Pretty, pretty valuable, right?
We've traded availability
for true presence.
I mean, we've traded messages
sometimes not even to
people for conversations,
and we didn't really lose
our teams, but we sort of
quietly uninvited them, right?
That's what I'm saying, man.
And so I think the core of
what we're gonna talk about
today is like we've traded
productivity for humanity.
Or, or the other way around.
I guess it would trade up our,
our humanity for productivity.
And, and it blows my mind
because I kind of didn't see
all of it happening at once.
And now I'm starting
to see it happen.
And I guess what's interesting
is I'm watching, I think we
all are watching the floodgates
about to burst again, where
AI's going and I'm like, shit.
This is a problem.
And again, you nailed it, Ryan.
There's a lot of people that
we help other founders that
don't have a team of people.
Right.
Or, here's an interesting one.
You and I have a benefit
that we've worked together
for almost 15 years now.
Yes.
A very long time.
And most of that time we were
spent, you know, physically
in an office, you could
build those relationships.
And a lot of other members
of our team, the same thing.
You know, we have very
long histories with them.
Yes, yes.
And so I felt like
we've had the benefit.
Of having established those,
you know, interpersonal
relationships and then
kind of carried them
into COVID and beyond.
What if we had none of those?
What if our whole team
was all the people that
we hired in the last year?
Yeah, it would feel
so disconnected.
I can't actually imagine what
remote first, like if you really
never had that connectivity.
Any anybody on the team
that you've ever met with?
Mm-hmm.
In person and or, or maybe
you have, but like you haven't
spent significant time with 'em.
Like we, we played hockey,
we worked out, we had lunch.
Like we did all this stuff
together as a team and I think
that made remote less painful.
I just correct when
you start with remote
and I get that maybe.
That's, it just feels
normal at that point.
I'm gonna argue that it
just isn't, it isn't normal
and that your work product
is not gonna be as good.
It's like, yeah, I can ship
a dock in half the time now
and I feel half as proud
because nobody made, made
it better with me, right?
Like it's just, it's
just me doing stuff now.
Lemme challenge
that a little bit.
I think we're more productive.
I think we get more
shit done, right?
I think so.
Right?
Oh, no, I, well, no, I'm
not arguing that at all.
I absolutely, yes, yes.
I, we, we do things twice or
more as fast than we used to.
Right?
Right.
A hundred percent.
At the expense of this little
thing called humanity, which
by the way, like in the past,
like decades and decades, you
know, and centuries of building
businesses wasn't necessarily
a thing people talked about.
'cause it wasn't an issue,
right?
No, it was a
foregone conclusion.
It was, it was a necessary
part of the puzzle.
And so let's start to talk
about how the hell we got here.
Sure.
Because I think it's important
to talk about how every time we
make a decision in a race for
a productivity, how humanity
has the, the humanity factor
that was never a factor before.
Yeah.
Has become not just a, a
casualty, but maybe like.
It ain't coming back.
You know, and again, we'll
talk about how to get it
back, but like, let's talk
about how we got here.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think it is a casualty
and I think it could come
back, but I don't think it's,
I don't necessarily know
that it's a natural cycle.
I think that this is one of
those things where it will
take a very deliberate action.
Right.
So let's talk about,
we got here, right?
We, we all started racing
towards productivity
and efficiency.
Mm-hmm.
You know, slack replaced
hallways, zoom replaced rooms.
AI replaced the urge to even.
Ask somebody something, right?
Every
time.
Holy hell,
we high fived the shit
out of each other, right
when we did it right?
Like I love Slack, right?
I absolutely love Slack.
And I'll say this, I love
Slack as opposed to email.
Like the only time I get an
email from anybody in the
company now is when they quit.
Yep.
Like email is the equivalent of
a certified letter now, right?
Yeah, it's exactly.
Nothing good comes up, right?
You never get a certified letter
that says, we love you so much.
You know, mom and dad, right?
Like, yeah.
So it's like the worst possible.
And so I only get an uh,
an email Now, like I said,
when something's horrible
that said, I hated email
because it was slow.
It was, you know, and
that was, you know.
Yeah.
People looked at email
being faster, right.
I hated email and Slack was
like this perfect blend of
when you just had a simple
thing you needed to say to me,
you could just say it, and it
didn't become an email thread.
Right?
Yeah.
And I loved it.
I loved how all of a sudden
I was talking to so many
other people because the,
the cost of that touch,
so to speak, was so low.
Transactional time.
Nearly zero.
Exactly.
But then all of a sudden,
Ryan, who sits next to me,
12 to 14 hours a day, he
and I have an exchange.
We've talked all
day, so to speak.
We've communicated
all day, I should say.
Right.
But we haven't said a
single word to each other.
That's what I could tell.
And you're saying the same
thing that okay, maybe that's
worth making that trade.
Okay.
Maybe, you know, maybe we're,
we're getting more done so
in in any of it, we missed
the part where we lost our
humanity because of it.
We had plenty of other ways to
like, you know, we're at lunches
and stuff like that, so we had
plenty of other ways to like
recapture that touch point.
We never got it back.
We didn't.
That's it.
That's it.
You know, we used to
whiteboard together for hours.
Now we, we used to
whiteboard for three.
Right?
Now I prompt for six.
Right.
And call that
collaboration somehow.
And I, I think one of the,
the things where like, there's
definitely, there's an increase
in individual productivity,
but one of the things that I'm
seeing more and more, because
of the amount of productivity
we have, the amount of, let's
say content or collaboration or
thinking that we can crank out.
It makes it really hard to
catch everybody else up.
Yeah.
One of the things that,
because we're not doing
this together, right?
It used to be that we'd, you
know, we'd whiteboard in a
room together and everybody
sort of had some, at least some
overlap and shared context.
Yeah.
I'm finding it harder and
harder because we've stripped
the humanity out of this to
make sure that everybody's
on the same page and that we
do have enough of that shared
context that we understand it.
Right when, right
when you're not.
Part of the genesis, simply
looking at the final outcome
and like, okay, this is
the distillation of a whole
bunch of thought and effort
on my part and, and chat
GBT or Gemini or whatever.
Yeah.
When you're not part of that,
it's you, you lose so much.
To me, there's so much texture
loss, and I don't just mean
that in terms of like just the
human component, but actually
understanding and, and making
it something that's useful
to someone other than you has
become harder, in my opinion.
Let's, let's continue
this timeline.
Let's, uh, we go to remote
work and we did remote work
long before it was cool
to do remote work, right?
Yes.
Like, like 15 years ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Work from home Wednesdays.
Yeah.
Correct.
Right.
And it worked great because
we were mostly interacting
with each other, but I think
you might have moved by the
time we got to the point where
work from home Wednesdays
became work from home Mondays,
Wednesdays, and Fridays.
We were already there.
Okay.
Okay.
Got
it.
Yep.
We were already, yeah,
we were already there.
So we were only in the
office two days a week.
Right.
And at that point, I
could already feel it.
I could already, I could already
feel something missing also,
for what it's worth back then,
because remote work wasn't like
a thing people were used to.
Yeah.
It was more tantamount
to days off.
Yeah.
It wasn't as much, it
was remote work sort of.
Right.
It was because office still
was tantamount to work.
Right?
Yeah.
Not office was tanto.
I'll do some work.
Right.
And so I also saw like
on our Fridays, like our
Fridays almost disappeared.
We didn't increase productivity.
That was just people notworthy.
They just had a
three day weekend.
My point is, at least back
then, we still had a touch
point of humanity, right?
We were still seeing
each other, et cetera.
Not soon thereafter,
COVID hits in COVID.
Yeah.
And COVID force feeds
everybody into remote work.
And at first.
I really liked it.
I'm gonna be honest, I loved
not having to go to work.
I, lemme put it this way, even
after everything we're gonna
say today, if you said tomorrow
that in order to keep doing
my job@startups.com, I would
have to go back to an office, I
would quit my job@startups.com.
That's how much I don't
ever want to go back
to an office, right?
This isn't me making a turn
from all that we've said before
in saying, you know, I really
wanna go back to an office.
We're not about to send
everybody an email that
says, you gotta come
back to an office, guys.
Yeah.
There's, there's any, the
team that's listening.
Don't, don't be scurred
you, you're safe.
I
guarantee there is no return
to work mandate coming
from this company anyway.
But in the first year, I
think because COVID was
such a, it was such an
overlapping specter, right?
You couldn't go anywhere.
Right.
So like, it felt like
a sick day, except it
lasted like two years
forever.
Yeah.
Right, right.
So, so again, now we're
all hopping on Zoom.
Right.
And Zoom becomes the thing.
And at first it's
new, it's novel.
Like, hey, you could
see everybody talk to
everybody, et cetera.
Yep.
In the not too distant
future it, it will wind
up becoming the default.
Like that's how you interact
with people, a personal level.
And then I started to see
it because we were using
it so much that Zoom, it
was better than nothing.
It was better than, you know,
the slack interaction we had.
Sure.
But it was hard to persist like
nobody wanted to be on a Zoom
for hours and hours on end.
Oh yeah.
Zoom fatigue was
a very real thing.
Correct?
Right.
And at some point it
became a liability, right?
Yeah.
It was like there's
something about being stuck
on camera that drains you.
I mean, the phone is kinda the
same thing, but dude, I can
be on Slack 14 hours a day.
I don't even think about it.
So there was actually some
super interesting research
around this that said that being
on a phone would actually be
significantly easier for people
because one of the things that
we, we do when we can visually
engage sort of with a person,
yeah.
We're built to, to look
for all these additional
non-verbal cues.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And body language,
all these things that.
When you have these little boxes
instead of actual people in a
room or you can't see the entire
body, our body, we are mentally,
we're still looking for this
stuff and we can't find it.
Ah, and so that's actually
a huge part of where the
zoom fatigue came from.
Some really fascinating research
around this time, and I
think this is important
to the folks listening.
We had launched our founder
group's product that was you.
Our ability to be able to get
eight people in a room and.
Talk about stuff we were
dealing with, right?
Remember in 2019 when that was
gonna be an in-person product?
I mean, god damn man.
Like
COVID was like,
rethink that one.
The launch date for that
product, for a national
launch in every city
was, I remember this
specifically, March of 2021.
Yes.
Yep.
Like the worst.
Nope,
the worst
not
happening.
So we moved it to Zoom and
the idea was we'll be able to
have the same interactions,
but we'll do it over Zoom
and it never materialized it.
Everybody tried it.
Everybody tried it, right?
And it worked zero.
It turns out that the
in-person, uh, aspect of
it is so much different.
Like the texture of it is
so much different, right?
Yes.
We got through COVID and
all of a sudden remote work
became like tried and tested.
Right?
And again, I'm a huge
fan of remote work.
So same.
This isn't me making
an argument against it.
What I am gonna say is
we once again chi that
away at our humanity.
A hundred percent.
We removed friction, but we
also accidentally removed
quite a bit of meaning and
interaction at the same time.
But I'll say this, but
at least we were still
interacting with each other.
Yes.
Like
yes.
Which brings us to
the final straw.
GPT shows up and I'm using
GPT universally to to mean
all chatbots or AI in general,
and all of a sudden we're
all enamored by it, right?
We all jump on it, we're
solving problems with it,
we're doing cool stuff with
it, whatever, and all of a
sudden I look up and I realize
I've been on GPT for five
straight hours at the expense
of talking to a single human.
Now, dude, I am wildly
productive on this thing, right?
I've never been more
productive at the expense Yes.
Of any level of humanity.
And I'm looking down the barrel
of this gun man, and I'm like,
this is not gonna get better.
It's terrifying.
Let me level up on that for a
second, because I found myself
a couple weeks ago having built
out a bunch of automations
and using multi-model chat.
I was watching some
chatbots talk to each other.
For like three hours.
I wasn't even participating.
I set it up and I hit run.
Yep.
And then I literally sat
and it, it's like I was
watching CNN or, or no C-span.
I was just watching
stuff play out.
Right.
I was just watching
people have conversations.
Yeah.
Man.
And then I, I stopped and
I'm like, what is happening?
Right.
Like I'm now no longer looking
out and imagining dystopia.
I'm, I'm literally
sitting in it.
Right.
And so again, I get up at
the crack of dawn, right.
You and I talk who are in
very different time zones.
Oh yeah.
What are we, six,
six hours apart?
Yep.
So if, if I'm up at four
or 5:00 AM uh, like today
and I'm pinging you,
what time would it be?
It's,
eh, 10 some.
We usually pop on between
10 and 11 my time.
Right.
And you and I have great
chats in the morning.
You know, it's kinda
like before everybody
else wakes up, you know?
It's great.
Yes.
And I realize that's
becoming more and more the
last time we talk, I mean
like on a consistent basis.
Yes.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of dialogue
at that point, right?
Like if you look at our
slacks, there's probably.
A hundred to 200
messages in that period.
Yep.
And then the rest of
the day maybe has 20,
bro, we're right back
where we started.
We're sitting next to each other
without communicating a single
word in this case, because
all of that extra dialogue
has now been consumed by GPT.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm having endless
conversations with GBT.
Again, if you look back
at those timestamps.
You know, when you get past
the wee hours of the morning,
all my time stands for in GPT
and I've got so many parallel
conversations going, there's
no way I could do anywhere near
the level of what I'm doing.
And I know you're the
same with a human.
Yeah.
And it's phenomenal.
My productivity is phenomenal.
Right.
But I no longer talk to
humans when I'm doing that.
Yeah, right.
And I don't have a
cooler way to say it.
That is wildly terrifying.
That is wildly terrifying.
It's a cost we didn't model
for at, at all, right.
We, you know, but it's new.
We understood, I guess,
look, speed and productivity
had had a price tag.
What we didn't look at
was that the invoice
line reads isolation.
Right.
So like that's where we're at
now, and I think we, we look
at some of the things that.
I would've even considered
inefficient before and
just sort of things that I
was happy to have go away.
Like all those little
side interactions that I
felt were just weighing
me down and wearing me
out, and man, laughter
was never an inefficiency.
Not that I ever was
against laughter, but
like it was a glue.
I didn't account
for what it was.
Right?
Yes.
There were times where it
interrupted, or like, yes,
sometimes we interrupted
people's work with things
like our NBA jam cabinet
playing that thing at four
30 instead of five 30.
And it did feel, it did
feel like an interruption
to work, but man, it
was part of the fabric.
It was super important.
You know something that's
really funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know it.
But that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this
stuff on the show, but
we actually solve these
problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the
test and be done with it.
Once I got into GPT, a lot
of what I'm doing now is I'm
saying to myself, well, if I
can get this resolved in GPT,
then I don't have to, uh,
bother one of my coworkers.
Yes.
Right.
Our CTO uh, posted something
in Slack a couple hours
ago and said, here's a new
version of cel, how it's
gonna normalize, like how it
communicates to other ais.
And I had a question for him
about like, like, how is that
different than what we've been
doing in that platform before?
Yeah.
And I was like, well,
if I ask him, then I'm
gonna be taking up time.
He could otherwise, you
know, be writing code.
So I'm gonna take its
GPT, uh, where I can
also feel less stupid.
It's that and do there.
Right,
right.
It's
that thought about it.
Go ask two hours ago judgment.
Right?
Yeah.
And I thought about it
and I'm like, okay, maybe
he didn't wanna answer
that question for me.
Right.
Or maybe conversely, maybe
he wanted talk about, maybe
he didn't,
that's why he posted.
Yeah, maybe he'd rather you have
his answer so that he also knows
you have an answer to that.
Yep.
This is one of the things
like we're all absorbing
information and generating
stuff so fast that it's hard
to keep up with what anyone
else is doing and what they
know and what they don't.
Yep.
And it's creating some real.
Danger in my opinion, man, like
used to be, you know, you said
it now, like you'll just go GPT
it yourself, but like used to
be that old the retort, right?
Let me Google that for you.
Yeah, right.
Right.
Now it's like, let me, let me
go chat GPT that for you, you
know, because, because at this
point what can't you go and find
out at least a reasonable answer
for an answer damn near nothing
and 80% answer at least.
Yep.
Right.
And I thought about that
and I am like, shit, that's
yet another thing that's
gonna cause me to not have
an interaction with him.
Yeah.
And again, I say this kind of
facetiously, maybe that's the
best thing he's ever heard.
He wants to hear less of
me and I could accept that.
But you know, we're
going back to this cost
we didn't model for.
Dude, I'm starting to get
a little anxious about
this because I'm thinking
of how many things.
Let me reverse it that
he's not asking me, right?
Yeah.
But I do wanna talk to my,
I do want those questions
brought to me, right?
Yep.
And I'm like, shit,
think about this.
If I have a dumb question, okay.
It at least in
invokes some dialogue.
Which can also also
lead to other things,
honestly, it often does.
But if I'm a 25-year-old person
in a, in an organization, and
I'm now afraid to ask questions
because I can just GPT and kind
of be quiet about it, think of
how much interaction the highers
up aren't getting with me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A teaching moment.
I'll give an example.
A, a person, you and I both
know who I've been working
with, uh, on my house, right?
Uhhuh convincing him to
start a business, right?
And every time we get
together, he's telling me
like, basically he's running
the whole thing through GPT,
like all of his decision trees
and everything else like that.
Yep.
Which, you know, I, I can't
knock, but he'll come to
me and he'll explain to
me like what the outcome
of that conversation was.
And I'll be like, damn, dude,
that's like entirely wrong.
Like, like you were
completely led astray by a
wildly overzealous AI that
sounded convincing as hell,
but none of that is true.
You know what it reminds me of?
Yeah.
It reminds me of when
college students used to
come to us and say, this
is what my professor said.
Uh, and I'm like, that
is entirely wrong.
Told to you by a very
well-meaning person,
right?
Yeah.
Well intended.
But they haven't left the
classroom long enough to
remember what it's like
to build a business.
Never done this.
They knew in the first place.
Yeah.
So that's here nor there.
But again, this behavior.
Of me going to a
non-human for stuff
Yeah.
Is robbing us of interactions.
Yep.
But here's, here's the trick,
but it makes so much more
sense for me to do that.
It makes so much more sense
for me to go to GPT and ask
the question, and I'm starting
to go, well, it also makes
sense for the rest of my
team to go to GPT to ask the
question, which means I'm not
getting involved, which means
I don't have either a teaching
moment or a say in the matter
or anything else like that.
And I'm like, oh.
Shit.
That's a problem.
Yeah.
You know, there, there's a,
there was a little of a parallel
I thought of here, which is
that like, and look, I'm not
judging anybody's parenting
style, but like we've been
fairly di device restrictive.
Yeah.
And I remember like being
out with our kids and like
our kids be a little noisier.
We'd have to do a little
more work to get 'em to
settle in and eat dinner.
We're out somewhere, look
across and there's a, there's
a family of, of, of five.
Where the kids are being
perfectly quiet 'cause
each one of them is looking
into a device on the table.
A hundred percent.
Yep.
That was easier.
Really efficient.
Right?
And it keeps the, but it does
the same kind of things, right?
Strips out that, that
humanity strips out those
interactions and, and I
think it's, it's dangerous.
There's something else too, and
I think we've talked about this
on another podcast episode Will,
but there's a big difference
between you and I using.
GPT to, to work through
things that were already
outright experts and just
really experienced people in
Yeah.
Right.
And the 22, 23, 20 4-year-old
just getting an answer from it.
They have nothing to
qualify it against.
And I, and I, I really
worry that we're gonna lose
something really important.
And I was thinking about
a really specific example.
Where you get to some
level of conviction.
Mm-hmm.
I think that one of the
things that, that these
outcomes can lack as you're
getting information back
from a model is conviction.
I remember one of the, the
best lines I ever wrote, it
ended up being our, our highest
performing ROAS line, uh, from
a LinkedIn ad ever happened
over by our lunch table.
Remember the lunch table?
We had the massive
whiteboard next to it?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In, at the end of the
room there, uh, conference
table, but it wasn't
in the conference room.
It was one just at the
end by the entrance.
I, I wrote a couple lines up on
the, on the, uh, on that board,
and then I was asking people
to bring their laptops over and
just like, Hey, I want you guys
to scroll your LinkedIn feed
and tell me what you're seeing.
And everybody started
kinda going, oh, okay.
Like we came to this
conclusion together.
That there was a lot of polished
business graphics and a lot of
really formal talk and all this
stuff, and so we decided to do
the, it's the napkin ad, right?
Yeah.
That's where that came from.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that came from other people
rolling their eyes at it,
beating it up a little bit,
pushing around, and then all
of us, everybody kind of going,
okay, I see where this is going.
The conviction that
came from that.
Was something really interesting
that had I gotten the same
answer from a model was like,
do this for these reasons, it
wouldn't have felt the same.
Right.
And so I think that
there is something else
to that human piece that
even if the information
was exactly the same,
yeah.
The way we receive it,
the way we process, the
way we feel about it can
be entirely different.
Yeah.
And to your point, like
I miss having those
moments with people.
I miss, like yes, I want my
team to know things on occasion.
I also want it to come
from me because that
binds us, that brings us
together in a different way.
If they come to the same
conclusion without me, they came
to that conclusion without me.
Right.
And
I
think part of that, Ryan,
that's less the team and just
more of a bunch of mercenaries,
is what teachers used to retort.
When people said, why
do I need to learn this?
I've got a calculator.
Yeah.
I mean, it was like, this will
give me the answer, so why do I
need to know the math behind it?
Yep.
And you know, the teacher, and
usually fatally would explain
because the math behind it
is how you understand what
the answer is supposed to be.
Yes.
Right.
Just getting the answer
isn't what it's, it reminds
me of too, what I would
imagine professors, college
professors or, or any teacher
would be trying to tell their
students fatally, uh, right
now, which is, I understand
that all of you can go into
GPT and write a book report.
Or a term paper or whatever.
I, I understand you,
like you, you can just
use a calculator, right?
But understand the whole point
of you being here wasn't to
get the output, it was to
get the input right, so you
understood the material.
Right.
I look at it with our team where
this goes back to, you know,
when we'll talk about this kind
of bringing back the humanity.
I'm gonna have to start
realizing that yes, our
team can GPT it, Google
it, kind of thing, right?
But it's my job to make
it so they don't have to.
It's my job to be able
to say, let me explain my
thought process, or let me
explain kind of how we get
here so that you understand
the math behind the answer.
This is the first time
I've ever had to do that.
It's weird, but
it's it's real, man.
It is.
So here's what, this
is where we are, right?
This is, we find
ourselves at a crossroads.
Yeah.
Uh, or maybe we're already past
a little bit when need to, we
need to talk about how do we,
how do we reverse things a bit?
So how do we bring
humanity back, right?
Like, what is it, how do we
add human ROI back to the
roadmap in like a really,
really deliberate way.
I think the first thing
is to be honest, realizing
that like we got a problem.
Yeah,
for sure.
It was a little bit different
when we all went remote work
and it was like, oh yeah, just
put people in, in an offsite
or like put people like,
you know, uh, work at a, a
coworking facility or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we could look at it
like, well, problem, no
people in office or Right.
You know, people out of office,
uh, solution, people in office.
Right.
Like that was the thing.
Yeah.
And you're seeing kind of that,
um, that caveman response.
At huge companies now.
Right?
And these, these are people that
I absolutely like, admire, like
Jamie Diamond from Chase, right.
Incredible, incredible mind.
And his whole thing is
like, Hey, we're going all
going back the office 'cause
we get more stuff done.
Do I think that's the answer?
No.
Do I think that guy's a genius?
Yes.
I say this to say certainly
people are taking in that
caveman approach, right?
No office, bad office.
Good.
Yeah,
I get it.
What I'm saying is that was
the easy version of this.
Right?
Right,
right.
We're now doing a version
where there's no human at all,
even if you're in an office.
Right.
Because we've already proven
that you can sit right
next to somebody and talk
to them without letting
a word pass or any actual
human interaction occur.
You bet.
And I think now that really,
because AI is, is the final step
in this where you're just taking
humans out of it altogether.
I think we have to start going,
dude, like this isn't okay.
Like as managers.
Ryan, this is a whole
new skillset again.
Yeah.
It, it goes back to I don't need
to teach math anymore because
everybody's got calculators
and you've gotta be of the
mindset that just getting the
answer isn't what I'm here for.
Like, I also need to teach
people how we arrived there.
So let's say that, that
we're thinking about a new
product we're gonna build.
I can brainstorm with
GPT all day long and have
no input from everybody.
And produce a
requirements document.
And that's cool.
Like I, that was the
most time efficient way
I could get that done.
But what did I lose
in that process?
I lost the buy-in.
Everybody that
would've been involved.
Yep.
Right.
I lost somebody raising
their hand and say, Hey,
that's a stupid idea.
And the challenge, right?
The pushback, obviously,
you know, most AI
are incredibly han,
which to me like that goes
back to what I was saying
before about conviction, right?
That's part of where
conviction comes from.
It's not just people agreeing,
it's people disagreeing and
then realizing why you still
think you're right, right?
That's where conviction comes
from, and it's an important
part of the thought process.
That absolutely doesn't
occur any of my.
My chat interactions
with GPT or other.
Okay.
So, so I'm, I'm gonna
actually use that as a,
as a great comparison.
So you fly into town, ed flies
in, or you come from Spain?
Ed comes from Canada, yep.
You know, like in
the team in Columbus,
everybody gets together.
Right.
And we sit in my living
room and we go over the
product development together.
Yeah.
Right.
Over a course of a few days.
Right.
And how pumped were
we coming off that?
Yeah.
Right.
Yep.
No way on God's green
earth that was ever gonna
happen in a Slack chat.
Ever, ever, ever,
ever, ever, every two
pages of product discussion
generated by chat GBT enjoy.
Yeah.
Like, oh, I can't wait.
Because, and again,
that was like a really
compressed period of time.
You guys were only in town
for so long, you know,
we had a lot to cover.
Unfortunately, we just
motored through it.
But, you know, we really came
up with an entire vision and
stepped forward for the company
that everybody contributed to.
Everybody was bought in,
and more importantly,
everybody was excited about.
Again.
Yeah, buy-in and ownership.
You can't, if you're just
reading the requirements
doc that was generated and
handed to you, like there's
no buy-in, there's no
ownership, there's no, there's
no sense of participation.
Right.
It's just.
Executional work at that point,
it becomes transactional.
You
bet.
So then guess what
they're gonna do?
The obvious thing to do would
be, all right, let me have
GPT go execute this for me.
Perfect.
So, but other aspects of that,
this concept of not having the
interactions, realizing the
interactions are fundamental
aspect of, of our humanity.
The efficiency that we gain has
a real cost that as managers,
you know, as, as leaders of
companies, we have to replace.
For sure.
Right?
And, and, and maybe some of
that replacement is, I use AI
where appropriate, but I also
realize that at some point
the use of AI is gonna cost me
all the buy-in from my team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Or from your standpoint
as the CMO, you can say, I
know I can put together this
entire plan by myself in ai
Yep.
But without anybody
else chiming in on it.
One, I could be wrong like
we've been talking about.
Yes.
Right.
I could, I could have missed
something, um, or gotten
like, really, you know, high
on my own supply about this
concept without considering
a really basic fact.
Or because you don't
have buy-in on it.
All the other like levers that
you need in order to orchestrate
this are being put in front of
people who don't care about it.
That's it like kind of matters.
Or when you have the buy-in, you
have shared like consequence.
If your campaign doesn't
work and everybody bought in
on it, they're like, shit.
But if you're the only one that
presented it and no one else
had any input and you fuck it
up, that's just Ryan's problem.
That's just
it.
I mean, technically all
of our problems, but like,
you know what I mean?
It ain't the same.
Yeah.
You know what's funny is like
we're, we're mostly talking
about fairly transactional
stuff, like content producing
things at campaigns.
Yeah.
Whatever.
You get into things like the,
some of the, the softer stuff,
which are the hardest, right?
Like what the really hard
calls in a founder, like I
don't having to, having to let.
Somebody go having to wind
down the company, right?
Should we take on investment?
There's all of these other
things that are like these
really big tough, hard decisions
that founders have to make.
And look, the hardest calls
are always still gonna be
ours, but man, it feels like
they land a little softer when
someone else hears it land.
Right?
Agreed.
When, when it's just ours.
And also like I, I get really
worried that we're losing the
ability to thought process.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
We're losing the ability
to kind of sit with stuff
because we don't have to.
We don't have to sit
with anything anymore.
I can immediately have
something, process it.
Right.
There's no more like,
you know what's funny?
I have done this.
I used to, I used to have
a notebook beside the bed.
Right?
And when I would wake up
with one of those thoughts,
that just wouldn't go away.
Yeah.
I'd write it down.
Then I'd leave it until
the next morning, try
to get it outta my head.
What do I do now?
Throw that shit into GPT.
Yep.
Right?
Yep.
Partially, this is a way
to capture it, but agree
partially is a way to
begin to process it, right?
Yep.
Which takes away just
sitting with something.
And I think there's a,
there's a real danger in that.
Yes, there are certain things
that it will just, it'll,
it'll help me crank stuff
out, I can help me brainstorm,
help me do a lot of things.
Um, but I think we get
into some of these bigger,
harder decisions, which
are the best and worst
part of being a founder.
There's a much,
much bigger danger.
That's where my head is at.
Right?
I, I keep thinking to
myself, how do I replace
the humanity in this?
Right?
Yeah.
How do I re replace the
process that brought the
humanity, because this
thing's scary, right?
Yeah.
Again, my efficiency is at an
all time high in over 30 years
of being a founder, and this is
the first time I've ever seen
a consequence to efficiency.
In the past it was
always efficiency.
Good.
You know, consequence
zero pretty much.
Yeah,
exactly
right.
Consequence was maybe the
cost of the tool, right?
Correct.
That would create that
efficiency and now I'm kind
of like, damn, I could do
all of this in a vacuum in
my connection to my team
become zero and, and you
know, I've been talking about
how it affects the team.
Lemme talk about
how it affects me.
Like how it affects me, me
personally, when you go hours
and hours and hours and like
if we extrapolate days and
days and days without really
ever having conversations, like
any meaningful conversations
with anybody, that stuff
messes with your head.
It does,
and I say this, we have a lot
of luxuries because of our,
the stage of this company
that most founders don't have.
We have the luxury of being,
being around almost 15 years.
A tremendous amount of personal
history among the team, you
know, and trust, et cetera.
And so I don't have to
build those things 'cause
we already built them.
But if I'm a solo founder
and I've got maybe, you know,
two people that were working
with me through Upwork or
something right, you know,
super far away that I've never
met, I was already lonely.
Right, but this is taking it
to the nth degree, I think as
a founder, which again is a
very, and, and it's not like
specific to the founder, it's
specific to everybody on the
team, but I'm just gonna speak
from the founder's perspective.
As a founder, it's
already a lonely job.
Like a super lonely job
to begin with, and now to
take the human interaction
out of it all together.
That is just not healthy,
that I don't see any
version where that goes.
Well.
I don't see any version
where people, people are
like wildly happy about it.
Unless you were the world's,
it was already
introvert
as you said.
It was already isolating and
we, we kept the isolation,
but we deleted the antidote,
which were the other people
that we would've been
forced to communicate with.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
And so, yeah, I mean, we're
dialing that up significantly.
Ironically, you know, at a
time in, in, in the world
where it's never been easier.
Right.
Access is not the problem.
Right.
We can find people that would
be really worth talking to.
Yep.
And yet we have all
these reasons why.
It'd just be more
efficient not to.
I'm of the opinion right
now that we're going to see
a massive swing the other
direction almost by nature,
where all of us, and I'm not
specific to like startups
or anything else like that,
all of us are gonna start
to place a massive premium
on human interaction.
Right.
I just, I feel like this
is, you know, one guy's
prediction, but I feel like
the world is starting to
like not up like a muscle.
Yep.
And it's starting to hurt.
I think social media for
as much as it was supposed
to connect us, disconnected
us in a tremendous way.
Right, because it replaced
that human interaction.
Yes.
Which we thought like if I
have lots and lots of convos
with all of my friends,
technically we're talking.
But if none of those
wind up being like actual
human interactions,
it's not the same thing.
And I think at some point
I also get numb to it,
which is even worse.
Like again, and, and this
is you and I coming from
perspective, having lived a
very different version of life.
I mean, yeah, I didn't
have a cell phone until
I was in my twenties.
How did you make it?
And that was just a phone
that you had to push the
keys, you had to remember the
number, push the buttons to
call someone, and then you
could only hear their voice.
Right.
Like I think about the, the,
the poor digital natives
and it's like they don't
even necessarily know what
they've, what they've lost.
And I think that brings a
greater responsibility on those
of us who, who do to protect
the humanity in all of this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because we may be the,
the only ones who actually
really, truly still
understand what it was worth.
I agree.
And here's what I think.
I think Ryan, startups
of the future.
You know, you know, we're
all building kind of these
next generation of startups.
I think one of our greatest
like cultural draws is going to
be how we exemplify humanity.
Human connection.
Yeah.
Right.
And again, I don't
just mean in person.
I hope so.
Because I feel like that's
always been one of the
tenets of the startup, right.
Think of the way we
described it, the large
soulless corporation.
Right?
Yeah.
Like, and that's becoming true.
Like the worst thing in
the world to me would be.
That description also applies
to a two person startup company.
We're a
small soulless corporation.
Yes, very small,
soulless individual.
Yeah.
Awful.
I genuinely believe that,
and this applies to our
own company, et cetera.
I think our ability to
craft a new culture.
That triples down on humanity.
Yeah.
That recognizes that all
of these productivity
boosts that we've had have
come at a tremendous cost
and that the people that
work for us, with us, et
cetera, are lonely as hell.
Right.
Just, yes, a hundred percent
at a very fundamental level
in our ability to engage
and bring them back in.
You know, make them feel heard,
make them feel connected, make
them feel important again.
Right.
And I just mean on an ego level,
I mean just at a human level.
Sure.
Sure.
Especially for what, what
we're about to go through
right with, with what AI is
about to do, I think is gonna
be the number one premium.
I think people are like, yeah,
there's, there's lots of jobs
I can get if jobs still exists.
Uh, there's lot, lots of jobs
I can get, but I'm looking
for a company with soul.
I'm looking for a company that
values humanity in a way that.
Kind of got pulled away.
And I think for all of us as,
as startups, as founders, as
people, if we can start to
recapture that humanity, we
are gonna be a, the kind of
startup that all of us actually
want to go and work for.
In a world where
none of that exists.
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors
helping them win in the
startups.com community.
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com
to see if it's for you.
Could be just the
thing you need.
I hope to see you inside.