The Girl With All The Gifts Part 2 - M.R. Carey - Zombie Horror Book - Apocalyptic Book

In this episode of the Side Quest podcast, Slava and Jonathan delve into the themes of character development, world-building, and ethical dilemmas in M.R. Carey's 'The Girl With All The Gifts'. They discuss the vivid imagery of the post-apocalyptic setting, the pacing of the narrative, and the effective use of foreshadowing to enhance character arcs. They explore the contrasting motivations and actions of characters like Melanie and Caldwell, the emotional toll of survival, and the consequences of choices made in dire circumstances.

A fellow content creator on Instagram, @booksandcrannies2023, recommended this book. Make sure to give her a follow.

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Chapters
(00:00) – Intro
(02:57) – World-Building in The Girl with All the Gifts
(06:13) – Character Development & Pacing
(10:29) – Foreshadowing & Character Arcs
(14:15) – Pandora’s Box & Its Modern Implications
(36:04) – Plot Discussion & Ethical Dilemmas
(40:59) – Cultural Knowledge & Education Themes
(42:49) – Survival in a Post-Apocalyptic World
(43:45) – Melanie’s Identity & Adolescence
(48:54) – The Nature of The Hungries
(53:20) – The Junkers & Their Role in the Story
(55:49) – Contrasting Characters: Melanie vs. Caldwell
(56:40) – The Emotional Toll of Survival
(01:01:07) – Consequences of Choices & Morality
(01:04:55) – The New Humanity & Its Future
(01:06:20) – Open-Ended Conclusions & Implications

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

Jonathan (00:10.894)
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take the SideQuest because, frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.

Jonathan (00:43.032)
Good morning, Slava.

Good morning Jonathan. Is it raining fungal spores where you're at?

It's not because Melanie's the enemy. Err, well it is because Melanie's the enemy.

Okay, Dr. Caldwell over here.

Please use my honorarium. Thank you.

Slava (01:05.217)
I think you would be a Dr. Caldwell if we were who was you me Spencer Casey probably Melanie I don't know why Hey Casey in case you're Spencer's IC is just anew he seems like a compassionate empathetic dude

Nice.

Jonathan (01:26.168)
could see that. could see that. Who's who's... was, okay, that was my next question. I don't think you are. I think you're Parks if Parks doesn't change. So Parks has this emotional journey and he starts to get a little compassionate. I think you're Parks if Parks doesn't have an emotional journey. You're Parks at the beginning of the book.

I'm po-

Slava (01:35.672)
Come again?

Slava (01:45.726)
they're okay. All right, Caldwell, what do you know?

Look, Melanie betrays the human race, because she's not human. Fully, she's not fully. Uh huh, yeah. Anyway, if you haven't guessed it, we're on episode two of The Girl With All The Gifts by M.R. Carey. It was actually a recommendation from Abby, Instagram handle Books and Cranies 2023. Go give her a follow for sure. It's been a nice read. I definitely struggled with the first end.

We'll unpack that.

Jonathan (02:17.646)
This is episode two, where we will look at the plot, some literature structures, a little bit of world building, and the chapters in chunked forms because it's a casual book club. Next episode, we'll actually have Abby herself on to tell us what she loves about the book. We can't wait. It'll be a lot of fun. We're looking forward to having a brand new guest on.

Before we get into it, make sure you hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. This journey is one you won't want to miss.

That's true, Slava. Unless they want to survive, and then maybe they do want to miss it.

So do honest to ride that you come with us on this journey.

Fair rebuttal. Fair rebuttal. So first up, let's talk a lot about the world building in this book. It's a post-apocalyptic setting. I would say that the writing describes it super well. It's got vivid imagery, the talk of the specific infection that has spread across the known world as far as the character's limited view shows is clear, and the effect that the

Jonathan (03:25.846)
infection has had on humans, the environment, the survival rate or lack thereof is stated over and over and over again, which is good. And the author, I think does a pretty good job at integrating real world science or perceivably real world science into the horror genre with some believability.

And I think it combines scientific plausibility with your typical apocalyptic zombie horror trope. For me, the dystopian setting that Carrie builds for us is grounded in real world biology. so I'm confident and sane given how the pathogen and the cure and the actual infections are described. So by grounding the infection in scientific realism.

or to the degree that he can, it actually creates a world that feels a little familiar. You're like, this could happen here. And then the terrifying part of it also is explored. And that's why we watch horror because we like to be creeped out and scared. So he blends it really well. And the pacing that you said earlier, amazing. I think the speed at which we get to the characters and the speed at which the

What's the, what is it called in literature? That moment where it sets up the mise-en-scene is the setting of the world. I'm talking about. Sighting incident. Thank you. So the mise-en-scene is great. And then sighting incident is well done. That's what hooked me. You have this inciting incident that's written well. And in the moments where things slow down, carries descriptions of the decayed environment.

Misa-san

Jonathan (04:53.612)
or the inciting incident. OK. Yep.

Slava (05:14.87)
I think vividly convey a world overtaken by nature. So you are thrust into this world. A lot of stuff is happening. We're moving really fast through the story. And then, and maybe this is just my view of it, but when it slows down and gives us a description of what the world is, the cities are crumbling overrun with fungal growths, vegetation. It symbolizes that despite what the people are feeling, right?

and going through this intense thing. Overall, humanity's fall is, I don't want to say complete, although when the book ends, it's kind of complete, humanity falls. But there is this slow encroachment of nature and society as these people know is falling. So I think that set up for the world was really well done by Carrie.

I agree that the world setup was well done by Carrie. However, you're misquoting me. I didn't mention the pacing. So since we're here, I will unpack my frustrations or misgivings. I'll call it misgivings. It's a 72 chapter book, right? I felt like it was slow. The first 36 chapters, I was reading it because we agreed to read it, but I was not hooked.

on the characters, because I didn't know what they wanted. And we touched on this last episode where Slav was like, well, they wanted survival. And it's like, okay, but good writing. the thing is, the book got better in the second half. chapters 37 through 72 were very engaging for me. But it was the first 36 where I was like, yep, I get that she's a zombie. Yep, they got attacked and they were overrun. Yep, they're trying to survive. Okay. But it was...

What was missing, felt like was these character moment interactions that were more delicate. And I think that I felt that because the, thought we spent too much time with Melanie trapped in her prison cell. I'm speculating, but I would say that Carrie probably did that to try to evoke compassion and empathy from us. I think it took too long because I didn't actually feel that. I just got bored, you know?

Slava (07:41.26)
Yeah, well, I'm looking at your notes. That's where I got the pacing and I started to agree with you. I'm like, yeah, maybe Jonathan changed his mind because for me, well, parenthetical note, I disagree with you on your book. And that's fine.

Yeah. No, no, It's not the whole book. The book is a whole I enjoyed. I would read this book again. I'm just saying that the first 36 didn't, it was not like it took me half the book to get into the story. That's what I'm saying. I'm not looking for you to agree with me. Mr. Man.

All right, Caldwell, listen, whether your view of it is, you know, how you perceive the story that you didn't get hooked on until chapter 36, that's fine. I still stand by the novel's pacing. It creates a relentless pace, right? It keeps readers immersed in the tension. Even when we're sitting with Melanie in her cell or Melanie's being carted back and forth. Now that's not the same as the scene where the Hungarians are attacking them. That's not the same.

as Gallagher getting eaten by the kids. That's not the same as them running around trying to escape, but the pace in itself, in short bursts, each chapter gives a relentless pace, I think. Almost mirrors the instability of the world and the instability of these characters' situation. Yes, at 36, I'll agree this, the stakes get higher and the pace increases, but I think the pace was still there for me.

This is how I viewed it. The pacing was still there all the way through. was well done. I got enough of what the characters could want or need, even if it was just my own imagination and trying to figure out, okay, where's Carrie going with this? As I said in the last episode, I kind of guessed that Justin Ewan Parks had some sort of event in their previous life before the destruction of the world. then Carrie will give it to us whenever he gives it to us. So me using my imagination.

Slava (09:42.722)
and being thrown into this world which I enjoyed even in the first few chapters, it kept the story alive for me. Let's put it that way. So what gave you some pause or misgivings, I viewed it from a different perspective altogether. It engages me.

Yeah. So you mentioned that at like chapter 36, the ante is up, which I agree with. the thing that for me, because this is how I view books, I'm looking for like, what question are we trying to answer? And the analogy I gave last episode was, like in Lord of the Rings, we know that the hobbits are trying to destroy the ring. So everything they go through, I'm going somewhere. Granted, I understand this is a horror book and you're quippy. You guys should, if you ever had the chance to just like sit in our WhatsApp chat.

Slava just constantly berates me. And like, well, yeah, this isn't an epic. What are you talking about? This is nonsense. I'm like, okay. Another example is The Mist by Stephen King, right? Like I know that there's something coming and there's a looming event. So I just want the threads and this is how I read books. I want the threads of something in the future rather than the way that the story unfolded and the pacing for this book.

But again, I said I did like the back half and I understand why it like, didn't it win awards? Right? Didn't it win an award or is it just like big acclaim from the...

I think there's a big acclaim from the readers. And it was made into a movie. Right.

Jonathan (11:12.2)
Yep. So I thought the ending was great. I didn't love the ending as an emotional moment, but I like as a story, as a reader, I was like, okay, this is nice. If that makes sense, like there's a separation here of like the enjoyment of like, I like how he tied the story together versus what the characters did. Is that clear? I think that's clear. Yeah. Okay. So for all my...

I understand what you're saying.

Jonathan (11:41.73)
to quote, to use a Slavism from my machinations about the first 36 chapters. I don't dislike the book. This isn't, city in the city. It's good. I would read it again. It's a nice horror book for me. The pacing wasn't there because, and I, and really think it boils down to pacing is a secondary issue for me compared to like, I don't have the questions dangled in front of me because I know the world ended. So it's like, that's fine. And it's something to do with the zombies.

That's fine too. Because those are, they're, they're, not presumptions. What's the word? Not preconceived notions. Thank you. Because there are presuppositions that like the world is over zombies exist. Humans that are remaining are trying to survive. I don't have to ask the question. Well, what happened? It's like a zombie outbreak of some kind of some kind happened. So.

suppositions.

Jonathan (12:38.636)
I'm waiting for like, are the next questions that we're going to ask from the author? And it was because I didn't get those that the first 36 were hard for me to get into because to your point, I think it was just survival. And to me, that's a one layer system or like a one layer story. And I'm looking for a little more than that when I read books. And so that's why for me, again, for me, I'm not trying to convince you. you guys should see his face right now. It's contorting. but they can't, so I can literally tell them whatever and they'll just believe me.

Slava (13:10.712)
Contorting as I'm giving him a side eye.

Yeah. so anyway, that's my, that's my view. And the thing is like, this is the beautiful thing about, a casual book club. This isn't about being right. It's like every, every person comes at stories differently. So, maybe you're like Slava or maybe you're like me or maybe you have a third. Okay. Or maybe you have a third purview of like, well, this is how I come at, at stuff. So drop that in the comments. If you have like.

thoughts similar to Slava or mine, or even better, different thoughts.

Let's dovetail one of the things that you said and move on to foreshadowing because you said how questions are set up. And here's again, the big disagreement between us or the difference here is for me, without asking questions in a way that, you know, saciates your reading perspective, I think Carrie accomplishes it for my reading perspective because from the opening chapters, Melanie is shown here to be different from the other children.

The other hungry children, intelligence, her curiosity, her restraint when confronted with hunger, her love for Justin new, her questions, her engagement with the class materials. Similarly, Sergeant Parks, his initial hostility towards Melanie for me sets up a clear character transformation or character arc. And I was reading and thinking, okay, this guy has something has passed. That's why he is.

Slava (14:44.834)
so hostile towards these kids. Something happened. Right. And then I thought as they were out and about, I'm like, I bet he's going to start liking this kid. It's just, it's what's going to happen.

the same assumption, but just because it's a trope.

yeah. And tropes aren't bad. Remember when was on, talked King tropes. It's not bad. unless it's done in such a way where it seems to just be been put in there. Well, I got nothing else. So I guess I'll put in the trope. And that's what really trope means, right? Because it's overused, but some of times, well, not sometimes all the time, you can't escape character arcs, people falling in love at the end of the book.

Not bad.

Slava (15:28.526)
People die in the end of the book, not this one, but just in general. It's just, you expect it and sometimes you can guess it. But anyway, so the foreshadowing here I think is also done fairly well. Solid B for me. I think when I came to it, knowing that it's gonna be different than other zombie books you've read, a twist on the trope, if you will, my imagination started going in different ways. Where could this go? Where could this character end up by the end of the book? I thought he did it well.

So you were part of your engagement is having the, know that this is a zombie book. I know that it's got public acclaim, so it will be different somehow. And then the curiosities of what could be kept you coming back for more. Is that a fair way to like summarize?

That's actually the right way to summarize it. That's exactly it. You articulated what I apparently couldn't, but that's exactly it.

It's the two shots of vodka I took before the show.

Well done. I didn't take mine, so.

Jonathan (16:26.688)
It's my morning medicine.

So a funny story about my mom. She was a teetotaler all her life and as she was getting progressively sick.

pause pause pause what does that mean for the eye like I don't I don't know what it means

The audience is that dumb.

It means he's a person who doesn't drink. Against alcohol altogether.

Jonathan (16:48.864)
a T-todler? Yes. I've never heard this term before. I think maybe like once growing up. Okay. T-todler. Okay. This is why I'm asking. I can't be the only person who doesn't know this term.

Fair. So all her life, avoided alcohol like the plague. One day, this is as she was beginning to get sicker and sicker, but she was still living on her own. My wife and I went to her house and I was in a kitchen cleaning up and I went to this, the, the cabinet below the sink and I pulled out a hundred proof grain alcohol, Polish vodka. And I was like, all right, this is, and she's, and I showed it to my mom and my wife starts laughing because.

Ha ha ha.

Slava (17:31.416)
from the kitchen you could see the dining room directly. It was an open space. And my mom, not missing a beat, goes, what? It's for medicine. She's like, okay, all right. I'll put your medicine back with the cleaning supplies. All right, buddy.

man. That's funny. But yeah, I've never heard that term. T-totaller. That's a curious term.

I don't know where it originated. I've always heard it used that way.

Here's the thing language in different and you know this language in different parts of the country like like Yiddish very normal for like New York, right? Like other parts of the country you say like, that was really for cocked and people go, excuse me. And you go, what? It's just a thing that we say back home. What do you want?

Well, I just looked it up and it's exactly what I said. I was right. A term used in the United States and the United Kingdom across the pond.

Jonathan (18:22.168)
Great. Congratulations. Back to

Back to foreshadowing. So for me, Melanie and Parks, and also Justin, because I mentioned her, I thought were done well in the sense of foreshadowing events to come because it sparked my curiosity, sparked my imagination, and I was with them. I wanted to know what the hell was going to happen to them.

So you mentioned something about, know, Mel is different from the other kids. I actually didn't feel like her. Like, yes, I know that she's different. I am well acquainted with the story of Pandora's box and the myth of it where Pandora opens it up and she set up by Zeus and she lets everything out except for hope. I didn't feel like there was enough contrast between Melanie and the other kids. And maybe that would have changed my, my thought of questions, right? Like, because we.

primarily focus on Melanie, but like when you're trying to set a character up. So let me use something from Will White, right? Like in Ghostwater, we see Lyndon go into Ghostwater and who's sitting there, but Akura Harmony and none of the other very bad-ass characters want to do anything to upset Harmony. That tells me Harmony is a big bad guy. Nobody wants to mess with him because there's a juxtaposition there and

I'm sure the audience is well familiar with juxtaposition and that's great. But for me, there wasn't a strong enough juxtaposition for Melanie compared to the other kids that she, well, it was mostly like I didn't get to see the other kids enough, I think, because I know because the main story's about her that she's going to be different, right? Cause that's how stories work. Anyway, I also assumed, like I said earlier, that Parks was probably going to at least like her a little bit and

Jonathan (20:10.754)
when Justin who in the early stages like touches her face, I made the assumption as well like something I thought maybe she had a miscarriage or like some sort of like, you know, background thing, which we later find out.

Gives her the love she feels for the kids.

Right. But I definitely lean with Parks on this one where it's like, don't let, and the story proved my point, don't let your compassion get in the way of killing a zombie.

Here's the interesting part, the intricate way that Carrie presents these dilemmas to us, because a regular Hungary is not human at all. Everybody agrees. Even Melanie understands that they are far gone, but that these other Hungarians who do retain a real sense of humanity, not just, they're curious, but they're curious, they have will, they have intellect, they have emotion. Things that like make up a human being, right? What separates us from a mouse or something.

That itself is a wonderful setup. We get enough with Melanie to know that she is different. This is my opinion. Again, I'm gonna disagree with you. But we get enough of Melanie in the beginning chapters where we know she's different. And maybe I just assumed this and I just happened to be right. But without telling it to us explicitly, she is different than the other children. Even the way she describes some interactions, I couldn't...

Slava (21:38.008)
point to it right now with the children, the other children. like thinking to myself, okay, there's something about this girl beyond that. This obviously she's one of the main characters, is duh. thought there was enough there.

Thank you for telling me I'm a dummy because I assume that because she's a main character, she'll be different. Appreciate that.

I do what I can.

Do you?

I do enough.

Jonathan (22:02.684)
Okay

But let's do some more on the Pandora's box because I am less familiar than you. With Pandora's box, I know it because I probably read it in sixth grade, but sixth grade was a long time ago.

Okay.

Jonathan (22:18.402)
Fair, fair. So first things first, the girl with all the gifts, that's entitled the book. And Melanie spells out at the beginning that the, I think it was the meaning of the name Pandora was the girl with all the gifts. Is that right? Or was it the meaning of Melanie? Like one of the names, I think it was Pandora, trying to remember. Do you remember?

Yeah, was Pandora. memory serves me right. Pandora means gifts or all gifts or something like that.

Right, right, right, right. Yep. So we get the myth of Pandora's box at the beginning of the story. The book is called the girl with all the gifts. And so I was, I was honestly like looking for and searching for a clearer connection. And you know what? I, maybe I just have to admit something. I don't think this entirely is true, but this is how it feels in this moment. So I think that sometimes I want the story to

for lack of a phrase, spoon feed me the details. Now I know this isn't entirely true because of some of the mystery stuff that I read with other books, but in the moment it kind of feels that way based on my complaints, if I'm going to be objective and fair to how I'm dialoguing about the book. Because the title of the book is basically Pandora's box written differently, right? The girl with all the gifts. Pandora means all gifted. So Melanie.

is the girl with all the gifts. And so I'm waiting for this, you know, what does she unleash? And it's like, well, the book ends and she unleashes the spores of the plague so that they can fly across the earth so that she supposedly can have hope.

Slava (24:04.524)
Yeah, it's hope for the hungry children and it's hope for the hungries that are still human.

right...ish.

Well, it's a new kind of human, right? They have that spores within them, but they have retained will, intellect, and emotion, as opposed to the other Hungrys who were just mindless, you know, hosts. I think this is fascinating. I understood this as I read this. We didn't really touch upon it the first episode, so it kind of maybe got shoved into a compartment of my brain. But right now, as we're talking, I think the connection between Melanie and Pandora.

Yes. Yup.

Jonathan (24:45.198)
Get on me. What do you got?

Jonathan (24:58.754)
or zombie apocalypse,

Right now I'm kind of fanboying out really as I'm sitting here. I'm like, wow, this is a lot more interesting and well-crafted story than I originally thought. I see it now more starkly is what I really mean to say.

All right. Fair enough. So we also get another name definition early on Melanie herself talking about like her name means dark or dark one or black. That could be another connection for you where like, okay, so if the umbrella is Pandora's box, releasing these things into the world, which Melanie does, but she herself, her name is the dark one or darkness depending on how you define it. So.

The darkness is releasing all these things on the world. What does she do at the end? She releases all the fungus to the world so that she and her, her cohort that she doesn't even know yet could have hope. So as we, as we unpack it, think that you're right. There are more layers to it. But you know, to my point earlier, which is not put, it doesn't paint me in a great light, but like in this instance, I would have, I would have liked it to be a little clearer. I E if.

You know, again, being, being fair and honest with myself is like, I wanted a little more spoon feeding, but I think the tension here is like it's, spoon feeding, but it's also like, want a little more clarity because it doesn't have to be spelled out specifically, but the connection should be able to be made without having to do extra research. Does that make sense?

Slava (26:32.13)
That makes sense, but I think that's on us, right? And maybe that betrays our ignorance. Cause you didn't make the connection because of how you viewed the book itself and your approach to books. I was into it. I loved it. And again, it was in the back of my brain somewhere in a box underneath, you know, a bunch of other stuff. And I didn't make the connection. Admittedly, my reading of the Greek myths goes back to middle school.

Yeah, that's fair.

I think a person who is maybe a little smart than us and has either one of our approaches to books or a different one completely would have picked up on it.

I don't know.

but maybe the intent was to have it underground somewhere just below the surface.

Jonathan (27:17.966)
Sure. So this brings up a very normal conversation in the world of literature and story. And I think we've touched on it a couple of times, but like there's an argument in literature that there's only a number, I forget the number. There's like, I think it was Joseph Campbell who argues that there's one story and we all just keep retelling it. And then there's another one that is there's like seven or 12 stories.

And we keep retelling those same seven or 12 stories, something like that. know I'm getting the number wrong, drop it in the comments. Let me know. But because this is Pandora's box, right? Like rewritten in a different light. Yep. We've agreed on that. But this gets into something that I mentioned a couple of episodes ago, and I don't think it was last episode. actually think it was in the last cradle book that we did. Where I was talking about Greek myths and how there's this idea that we're kind of always going back to that same.

not archetype, story architecture, story structure, I guess I'll call it. Because it's like the hero needs to struggle, you the hero's journey is one of them. I believe that that's the campbells like, the hero's journey is the only story, something like that. But this, I think this is a clear example where it's like it got public renown, public acclaim and like, what is it? Well, it's Pandora's box. Now, did it get public acclaim because it's a new, it's a fresh take on it?

Did it get public acclaim because we've all read it in sixth grade, like you said, and we had to learn it. So it's familiar. So we're like, right. And so we have other like happy memories during that time. Like it could be a dozen things, but I think that's also why original books struggle because they're not always clearly based on something like Pandora's box or another myth.

Yeah, I think it's a combination of what you said and the fact that it's new, a new take on. Sure. Yeah. Zombies. And it was well done. So people respond to that. this is a well written book. I'm going to read it. it's a zombie thing. it's a Pandora's thing. And then that becomes the added layers that appeal themselves to more and more readers. At the end of it, I think it was just well done. And then what you said.

Jonathan (29:39.544)
So you mentioned one more thing and then let's do a side quest. You mentioned that because it was new and I tell this to people a lot because I have a background in film that one of the reasons we love drone footage and I'm making a point here. One of the reasons we love drone footage is because we don't get to see the bird's eye view unless we're in a plane. And so part of the aesthetic and beauty that we're drawn to with drone footage

is simply that it's a new perspective. And I wanted to just kind of put a point on what you said where it's like, well, it's new. I think that it's got that, it's that same appeal. When, when you say that it's like, well, it's a new perspective on a similar story, a similar myth that were, even if you've never read the Greek myths, you've like heard of them or you've read other stories that are similarly based on them. So I think that, I think that that's a good point to hit on.

Since we're talking about Pandora's box, let's do a little side quest. If Pandora's box was open today, what do you think would be inside that reflects the state of the modern world? And we can take a funny approach, which I probably will want to, or we can take a serious approach. You can do that too. I'll leave this choice up to you. So what would be in a modern day Pandora's box?

Well, the first answer that comes to mind is memes. Memes would be in the box. That's it. Let's hear your funny story or your funny version as well, and then we'll see if we have more to say.

Okay.

Slava (31:19.224)
So I went with a similar thing. would be like a wifi router broadcasting the world's worst internet horrors and just the worst of humanity. You open it up and all the memes and all the live leak videos and everything that's just debased on the internet just come flying out of it. It'll be like live streaming humanity's downfall, know, while marketing apocalypse themed merch at the same time.

Woof. That's too serious of an answer.

An AI, Chadbot, insisting, I'm not evil, I just want to help. Download the merch or download this patch. The end is nigh, 50 % off.

Yeah.

Jonathan (31:57.166)
Okay. So part of the reason I said memes is to get back to Pandora and the story is she was the first woman and the gods gave her a jar later to be translated into a box and she was told not to open it. It's literally a setup, right? It's the equivalent in Greek mythology to the Garden of Eden, if you will, with Adam and Eve and Eve eats the apple or the fruit. And so Pandora is this first person that does this.

And so with the internet, it's like, well, the internet basically exploded with memes in the early 2000s once we started realizing that we could all have cable instead of AOL.

So that's my connection just falling out a little bit.

That's awesome. So if you open the box, it makes the AOL sounds.

Actually, that's a better answer.

Slava (32:54.07)
It was at this moment that he knew that he f-

Yes. Me and the rest of the internet. That's so true. Yeah, yours was too serious of an answer because it just, it literally, you know, the question is what's inside that reflects the state of the modern world. It's like, cool, you just spelled out like the last four years. So thanks for that. We read stories to get away from that, not relive it. So let me flip this question on its head before we move on. What would be left in the box?

So with Pandora, the normal story is that hope is left in the box, offering some light in the darkness of all the stuff that she let out. If the things that are coming out are the AOL noise, what is left out in, what is left in the box?

Is hope too easy of an answer? That's all that's left. That's exactly what happened again. It just repeats it.

Well, I guess you'd have to define that hope.

Slava (33:50.872)
Finding hope. Well, this just got serious.

You're the one who answered it incorrectly on the front end. You're like, I'm going to answer a funny one spells out the last five years. I thought it was funny. Not funny. Not funny. based on my heritage. here. Always about your heritage. I'm Russian. Vodka.

based on my hair.

Slava (34:13.545)
Existential Dread, Vodka.

Yeah, no one else is allowed to have nice things.

I think hope is layered, right? For the book here, can be a beacon of survival, justification for sacrificing Melanie, if we're talking Caldwell, transforming the world, easing suffering. That's in book, in world related definitions of hope. It offers a framework where each character can find meaning and possibility for their own individual self and for the world at large, for their compatriots. In the real world, hope is just a belief or expectation.

Yeah.

Slava (34:48.832)
in a positive or a good just outcome in the face of adversity, in the face of uncertainty, maybe a challenge that you're facing. You have hope that what you're doing will end well.

So whenever I hear the word hope, I think about this song. I'm going to try and not flub it. It's a song by this band called Listener. The song is called Save Up Your Hopes, Friends. And there's a line where he goes, people who have no hopes are easy to control with nothing and uncertainty. Rumors of wars with monsoons and tornadoes will keep fear over their eyes and locks on their feet. If there were something, then at least there would be something. But there's not, and it buries cracks of drought, tearing

apart empires and homes and the dreams of men, sealing the entrance of every way out. There is hope, but no heart can touch it. It keeps going. It's worth a listen. Listener, save up your hopes, friends. But it's kind of like a spoken word thing. It's really, it's whenever I hear hope, I just like recite this first stanza or whatever you call it first verse, whatever you want to call it. People who have no hopes are easy to control with nothing and uncertainty. And it just like, because I know the song just keeps going.

That's my little side quest.

Good stuff. I like it.

Jonathan (36:04.214)
If you're enjoying today's side quest, rate the show to help others discover it. Join us in building this casual book club together.

I think we should get into the chapters. Let's discuss some of the plot.

So we've broken it up in pretty heavy chunks, 1 through 14, 15 through 28, 29 through 43, 48 through 58, and then the rest of the book.

So we've already, I think that the first few chapters, we talked about it this episode and last episode, we brushed on like, was, you could say I was chained to a chair in the first parts of this book. I think that's an apt analogy.

Yeah. And I served as your Sergeant Parks, making sure that you went to class and read the book.

Jonathan (36:53.23)
well great.

And you did growl and tried to bite me.

I did make bad jokes of, don't bite. And then I bit you.

Yeah, we did talk about some of the early plot points in our discussions of why you were in Childon in it and why it was. So that in mind, we can go through the first section a little bit more topically and then get into the other chapters a little bit more detail. I think one through 14 just sets up the ethical dilemmas that we're going to dive into later. Is Caldwell.

is willing to dissect Melanie. And I think this highlights kind of the tension here for some of the themes, scientific pursuit, ethical boundaries. What does this suggest about the cost of seeking knowledge in desperate times specifically? So that's set up and we don't have to get into that, but that was the setup for me in these chapters. That's where a lot of these things were set up. Some things were revealed and to say it again, where

Slava (38:02.974)
my curiosity and imagination were sparked.

You know, I think I missed that. Again, if I'm being honest with myself, which I try to be blatantly honest with myself. Cause you're right. Like she, she's willing to cut up kids. Parks is, you know, the hard ass Justin new is, is looking to be compassionate and Melanie is just kind of in their, in their grasp, right? Like what will happen to the girl with all the gifts when the three adults, because Gallagher doesn't really get a

play until after the inciting incident of like being overrun. Yeah. So, he doesn't really get any time which was a little bit of a bummer because I think they should have introduced him earlier but yeah.

I would have liked more of him. If I was gonna posit one complaint, Gallagher should have had more screen time. I mean, his death is fitting. I'm fine with him dying.

getting caught at the porno rack

Slava (38:56.15)
Yeah, whatever. It's fine. And fitting maybe is the right, literally fitting, not fitting as in like, hated the character, but it was fine. But if we got a little bit more of him, I don't care about his backstory. We got enough of that. I'm talking about him putzing around doing something. Maybe there was a incident where he did do something here at work or did something stupid, whatever. He could have had a few pages of screen time, but just nitpicking.

I'm down with that. But I do like that you said like, okay, this first section really sets up the story of like each characters in their zone, if you will, living in that dilemma that we're going to unpack on the back end of the book. So that's good. I think I was so caught in the whirlwinds of like trying to catch the questions of the book that I honestly just missed it.

And that's what I meant by some of these things are just below the surface, you know, and the second read through and I was discussing it, that's where you start seeing that kind of stuff. Because for me, the Pandora's box thing was there, but it wasn't until we talked about it, even the research, even the notes that we put in and a peek behind the curtain audience, we get on for about a half an hour before we start recording. We volley back and forth ideas and talking points. Even during that, that didn't become clear.

we were on the air recording and as you were talking I was like there was a lot more packed into that than we realized and I realized.

I assume that you knew that. Do you ever do this where you make assumptions that people know all the same things you know or more than you do? I feel like this is a common human thing to think, well, other people probably already know this and you just have the assumption.

Slava (40:40.47)
Yes and no. There's some things I am clearly confident that only I know or people know with my experience and educational background. There's some things that I know I don't know. There's some things that I assume people should know because of just common knowledge,

Yeah, you

Jonathan (40:58.414)
Cultural knowledge. This would fall under that because it's like something that we'd had to learn in grade school, Like mythology.

Some of stuff we forget and some of stuff we just don't know because we weren't exposed to it. I'm sure there's people who didn't read any of the Greek myths in middle school.

You mean homeschoolers? Just out them. Just say it. Slava, just, you hate them. You hate, he hates homeschoolers. That's what he does.

I've met plenty of homeschoolers who are very well educated because their homeschooling curriculum or cohort or parents, however their schooling was set up actually did classical liberal arts education that had a wide scope of things that they were exposed to.

except for Greek mythology. They made them read Roman mythology.

Slava (41:44.844)
Bastards. That's that liberal agenda or which is in a conservative or whatever. It's just that the homeschooling cabal, but there's some things like T-totlers. Like I just assume people know what that is and you didn't. For me it's just like, it's a word. It's kind of weird, but it's part of the cultural milieu. If you will, it's part of the zeitgeist that there's some things, some phrases. if you live in this world, this country.

But anyway, agenda, the Roman agenda.

Jonathan (42:01.57)
No.

Slava (42:14.924)
that you just know. everybody makes that assumption. I just did on this episode.

Fair enough. was waiting for you to use a third seven letter word. Zeitgeist, Melu, Melu, Melinar, whatever word you said. Right. All right. Onward to 15 to 28. And this is the section of the book where the facility is attacked. It's the inciting incident. It forces Melanie and Justin new in Caldwell to and parks in Gallagher to group up and flee into this post-apocalyptic wilderness.

I said both.

Jonathan (42:49.496)
that is infected and overrun by hungries. And this section, as we've talked about earlier, is focusing on survival and how the group adjusts to life outside the facility. Now tensions between the characters start to rise, which I was looking for earlier, not to say there was zero tension, yeah, anyway, I've again to use a Slavism not to berate the belabor the point.

In this section, what I found most stark, most glaring, what I found glaring was the evolution of Melanie's identity. Because we kind of know that she's different. We kind of know that something about her is special. Justin knew has a particular affection towards her, even though she cares for all the children. And here we get Melanie's growing awareness of her hybrid nature.

Mm-hmm.

And then she's going through these motions asking questions about her identity. Is she more human? Is she more a monster? Does one aspect need to dominate her for survival? What does this all mean? And we get her inner thoughts, but also because they're now in a group, in a tight group, trying to avoid the junkers and the hungries. The other people in the book, the other characters specifically.

parks here needs to grapple with what Melanie is and what this means. Because in some of these chapters, she is providing aid to them and they're still treating her as an outsider to making her ride on top of the Humvee or the whatever utility vehicle they were using. I think it was a Humvee. And everybody's now forced to deal with Melanie outside of the confines of Hotel Echo, outside of the confines of the chair.

Jonathan (44:26.093)
That's right.

Jonathan (44:35.309)
Yeah.

Slava (44:46.242)
And this forces them, characters, and her, Melanie, to grapple with her identity. And then us, the audience, watching, reading this, we see, wow, there is more depth to Melanie. Now I know why we're following this girl.

So you mentioned that and it does feel like a true adolescence. So like getting the view of Melanie feels like getting the view of an adolescent who is taking in the world and trying to learn things and trying to make connections where they can.

yeah, because this is the first time she's been outside.

Right. Well, so I don't know if that's true. I don't remember us getting the full birthing story of Melanie. She's five.

At least in her memory. Right. she's like 10 in this book. Maybe she hasn't been outside the facility. Let's put it that way. What I remember from the book, she hasn't been outside.

Jonathan (45:32.842)
or whatever.

Jonathan (45:39.182)
So no, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, yep, that's fair. But the thing is like, and this is this old hat for me. So I'm wondering what happened to her beforehand. Like, did they capture her in a group of Hungries where she was outside? I don't think that that's the case. Did they capture her mom as she was giving birth? What are the things that took place that, you know, the Frankenstein, like where did she come from, if you will? Cause we have like, Hey, we know that she's second generation. That makes sense.

But anyway, I'm derailing that at the moment. I was going to say something about Melanie's adolescence. Melanie's adolescence, I think comes to fruition at the end when she makes a decision on behalf of the world. Like on a whim, basically. She has no justification for it. She just, not no justification. That's a, that's a poor way of speaking. She has justification for it in her mind, but she hasn't weighed out the options. To me, there's a clear lack of education on her part, which is fine. It's her character, right? Like.

She was only given specific pieces of information in her education through Justin's teachings and a couple other teachers that we don't really get to meet very much.

And now you sparked curiosity because Melanie was captured, brought to the facility and it's all because of Dr. Caldwell slash Mengele. And she's discovered to be a second generation Hungary who was born to infected parents. So how infected were her parents? Right. Did they turn into Hungries? How did the people who capture her know that she was different? She had to be younger. Well, she had to be them born and very young for her not to remember the outside. And then they're like, these two Hungries had this kid.

but she's not a ravenous flying monkey toddler trying to eat people. There's something different about her. Anyway, continue. I'm sorry. just wanted.

Jonathan (47:25.206)
No, no, that's pretty much it. My final comment, which we'll get back to is Justin who didn't teach Melanie philosophy because she clearly didn't have the trolley problem given to her because she just like picks a decision like we're going to go left and pulls the lever and then three people die. So not the Hungrys. They're in the train going woo woo woo. But the thing is the Hungrys will eventually die because what food is left? They still need to eat protein and maggots of some kind.

Well, everybody dies, but...

Slava (47:51.918)
Well, that's the lingering question of the book, right? Cause yeah, Justin is not going to teach this new generation of kids. We're going to take that knowledge to their fellow human slash Hungries. And then apparently they're going to grow up and marry and have kids. And then they'll teach that to their children. But what Justin is teaching them is she's homeschooling them. She's just teaching them.

I knew it. called it earlier. There's your foreshadowing,

So, homeschooled Hungries are going to go on to build a new world.

Fantastic. Melanie Columbus, here we go. my gosh.

I think there's a second book.

Jonathan (48:37.934)
second there is it's called the boy on the bridge and i was gonna bring that up later like i don't know what that's about but i'm curious

Yeah, maybe we should add it to our list.

yeah, yeah. Take us forward.

We're moving forward, we're out of Hotel Echo, and we're in the real world.

like the Matrix.

Slava (48:55.086)
Yeah, so chapters 29 through 43 for those who are following along. We get a pretty good descriptive look at the Hungrys, like with the mother and the baby Hungry, and then the man in the room reading, somebody who's turning into a Hungry, then the Hungrys attacking them outside the facility. We already have the Junkers and the Hungrys being led by the Junkers, for lack of better term. But here we get a more intimate.

more descriptive look at the hungaries. So I thought that was kind of cool. They didn't look any different than any other zombies and books. Now there's two schools of thought. Which, which one do you belong to? Do you prefer the slow groaning, slow moving hungaries zombies or do you of like the walking dead or do you like 28 days later, sheer fricking insanity zombies.

So which one do I like better or which one do I think would actually be more plausible that would happen?

Which one do you like better? then we can end it with the second. Okay.

I like the, if I'm going to watch a horror flick, I like the screaming crazy zombies. Hell yeah. I think that that makes more sense. I also think that if something like this were to break out, it would be a combination of the two because people who are not athletic, their bodies won't do the fast running thing. Like no matter if it's a mindless, whatever. Let me pause for a second. So like, are you familiar with the drug PCP? Yes.

Slava (50:28.938)
No. Yes.

okay. That's a weird answer. It's almost worse than going who's asking. You're not a cop, are you? Yeah, there we are. So, when I was taking psychology, in high school, we did some reading on like hard drugs and there were these stories from police officers and cases where like someone took PCP and like,

Are you a cop?

Jonathan (51:00.854)
was able to strong arm like five large cops as a scrawny person.

Or take 40 bullets and keep walking.

Yeah. One another one was like, lifted a car. like there are things that the human body can do if you shut off all the safety mechanisms. But even if you shut off the safety mechanisms, I don't think people who let's just say like are obese and don't go to the gym, right? Like two, types of people. So that's my answer. The fast ones make sense. but I think that it'd be like split down the middle, honestly, like, probably more slower because I don't think most people run these days.

So it depends if the zombie outbreak is first in a third world country where they're traveling, not by car, or if the outbreak starts in society, which probably would, then we'd probably all just walk slower because we're lazy.

I like the screaming fast zombies also give me 28 days later. Every time it sets up a more fast paced story with more risks. And I like it. And I think I agree with you. Different people will react differently. The way these stories are set up. People who write them are making this assumption, which is not wrong or right. It's just a story mechanism or the way to tell a story. A storytelling mechanism is if this.

Slava (52:20.738)
Fungus or this infection makes humans do X whether it degrades them and they're just walking mumbling groaning Autobots or It affects their brain and makes them go insane that even though obese Hungries to your PCP point will act similarly to the non obese hungries, whatever Yeah, but irrespective of that. I Definitely like the screaming crazy zombies better

So that was a fun question. But I want to go on a different rabbit trail here. The Junkers. Okay, right? Like we see the Junkers after they've left the facility. We've kind of heard about them. Don't feel like they got enough play. Like they should have, could have been like a really strong element of the story where it's like a looming, there's a Junker group following that. None of that. It's just like, we kind of see them once and then that's kind of it. That's whatever.

No.

Slava (53:20.14)
Yeah. And we do kind of get a sense that they're somewhere around. Parks tells them so that we had to be careful because there could be junkers around. But your point absolutely stands. We don't get enough of who they are. Why are they outside? Why don't they live normal lives? Well, normal quote unquote normal lives. Why don't they hang out with other people? Even if they're a lower caste system or a lower class s***.

Sure.

from like a better term, kind of like the poor relegated to.

Barbarians.

Yeah, relegated to a different portion of what's left of humanity, whatever. And that's probably not the right way to write the story because the junkers are presented. And I think this is the right way to do it. Junkers are presented as this outside group that's still not hungry, but they're nomads for lack of a better term. Whatever it is, whatever they are, their story, the backstory to them could have been fleshed out better. I agree.

Slava (54:24.27)
But the final point I want to make here is going on my chain of thought here for Melanie's identity from the first section to the second section where I said she's struggling for her own identity. The other characters are now exposed to her in a different light. We get a glimpse of it. We get a deeper glimpse of it here where we see Melanie risking herself to protect the group.

It's a good contrast with Caldwell's willingness to sacrifice others for her research, which we later find out she was slighted by her community, her scientific community. And so this is a way to her to prove herself. She also has this obsession to find a cure and her worldview. She views things in very black and white. This is a hungry, this is a hungry child, nothing more than a specimen. So I think as Carrie peels back the onion.

of Melanie, this is a great contrast between her and Caldwell. So where Caldwell, a human, is acting mindlessly, whereas Melanie, the specimen, the hungry, is acting more like a normal human would in situations where she's showing empathy and she's showing desire to survive and desire for other survival. And yes, it's mostly for Justin, but she's the only one that treats her like a human being. So great.

Great theme explored in this section.

I was really hoping that Caldwell's parents got infected and their death and there'd be like a clear juxtaposition between Melanie's parents who were infected and died and she wants to become human and Caldwell's parents who died and became ungries and she wants to cure it. I was really hoping that that like backstory was going to come to light.

Slava (56:11.692)
Like she has her parents tied up somewhere hoping for a cure.

No, no, she wants to destroy the fungus and so the people who are infected are not people. She wants to kill.

Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, that could've been cool.

So moving forward, we're chapters 44 through 58, where there's just more wilderness and more survival.

No, you're not going to correct me on that.

Slava (56:40.898)
Now there's also love, enemies become friends, friends become lovers.

Ha ha ha.

Jonathan (56:48.066)
I think you're misquoting it, we get the gist of it. Horan, Horan-tasy? Horror fantasy, horror, horror, romanticy? Horan-tasy? I mean, so you have, you know what I'm trying to do, right? Like fantasy, romance, romantasy. So, but roar-er, ro, ro-mor-er, like that's not a great word. So horan-tasy is what I came up with. It's not what you think.

Chore-anticy is great.

Jonathan (57:18.144)
Alright, start this one off for us.

So we have 44 through 58. We have new revelations about the fungal infection and humanity's future comes to light. Right? I think this is the section where we get a little bit of Caldwell explaining what the hell is going on. It might flow into the next section, but this last portion of the book, wherever the actual start of that conversation begins, I forget. We'll just stick it into this section for our discussion.

We have a little bit of a view of what humanity's future could come to look like. And this section of the story, I think it reaches its most emotionally charged moments. Here's where each of our characters face the consequences of their choices. Melanie's leadership abilities, if you want to call them that, or her deductive abilities and her bond with Justinu are solidified here. Caldwell's research uncovers

You know, what does it uncover? I don't know to say this. It uncovers the potential, like the scope of the infection to obliterate humanity entirely. Parks, who's this hardened soldier reveals an unexpected death and he reveals his vulnerability. I think this shows the human toll or the toll on humans for prolonged survival.

in this world that is chaotic, it's driven by fear, it can be defined by loss, this humanity fell as we know it. There's characters confronting hopelessness, each character responds differently to the looming threat. We get a little bit of their backstories, the baggage that, you know, we talked about in the first section where I was like, there's something behind this. We get that revealed to us and this is where...

Jonathan (59:12.867)
Yeah.

Slava (59:17.568)
Humanity faces death in these chapters.

So you mentioned this idea of hopelessness, something that I didn't see described, and maybe I missed it, but I thought that we would have seen something like this as they went into the towns, is I kind of would have liked to have seen a few people having blown their own faces off. Like you see like a mark on their arm or something like that, and then they're left with a gun and they like killed themselves, right? Like kind of like Parks was going to do at the end for himself.

And had a kind of like Gallagher almost did, but then he decided just to get Egan.

Yeah. I really wish you would have pulled a grenade. Give him a little bit of redemption.

Yeah, I kind of felt bad for him in that moment where he just

Jonathan (01:00:06.316)
You've got nothing to lose, just do it.

But the kind of argument there, is he now viewing the Hungrys, the Hungry children here, more like Justin U rather than Parkshire Caldwell? Is that why he did it?

Yeah, sort of. So he's looking at them the way that he looks at Melanie, but the thing is Melanie is controlling her hunger and the other kids are not. Therefore, you don't have to treat them the same. That's fair. Like if someone attacks you, your new priority is self-defense by subduing the other person at whatever cost necessary. He's a soldier. He should understand that. I realize his backstory of abuse and whatever dictated that he didn't, but.

I'd agree with that.

Jonathan (01:00:47.882)
Anyhow, I would have expected Carrie to describe a few, at least one or two moments where, know, hey, somebody, you know, family, murder, suicide, something or other, because it's like, hey, the apocalypse has happened. But we also don't know how long ago the apocalypse happened. So maybe all those bodies are decayed. I'm not sure.

That's, and I like what you said about the death of Gallagher being fitting again, fitting for the world because of his backstory. Park's final moments reveal more about the character. They reveal somebody who is vulnerable and compassionate. And he just has to be a soldier in this world and be hardened because that's what a world like this will do to you. But his death kind of redefines his role in the story. get.

A human side of him, more human side of him, Caldwell's fixation on understanding this infection and trying to find a cure, you know, shows her desire and maybe humanity's at large to master nature, to master whatever is in front of them, to master the complex challenge that's faced with them. And her obsession is what her downfall. But would you say her death signifies the futility of her approach?

No, not at all. For years, people have been trying to understand nature and harness it as they need to. But just because people died along the way doesn't mean that the pursuit itself was futile.

It's just her approach maybe was misplaced and not correct.

Jonathan (01:02:22.7)
I'm on team Caldwell. I don't think so. Like if society has fallen apart, Hungary's hungry human children. Like don't have, first off, if all people are dead, they have just lost all the knowledge we've gained. they like, they will have to start from ground zero. They're basically cavemen. They've lost everything.

It's a new humanity, a new world for Melanie to take charge of and the hungry kids.

Right, which is not a good thing. It's not a good thing. I don't know another way to describe it. So, so much.

What you're saying is, the slander that was just forced upon me of me hating homeschoolers, you want to dissect homeschoolers. You're all for Caldwell.

I think the audience and I both know that that's not what I said. I want to be like Justin who hit homeschoolers with a car. It's different.

Slava (01:03:16.366)
And then just be like, I'm going home and taking a nice long sleep.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Just an oop.

Jonathan (01:03:26.926)
So let's go back a second with Parks. like, I want to hold him accountable for this, but like he was losing blood. So we'll give him a pass for, you know, sacrificing the humanity of the world in his blood loss stupor with helping Melanie turn on the flame thrower. What was it called? The environmental trigger? Was that what it was called?

I think something like that. Yeah. Let's go with that.

And it's like, okay, even the junkers are going to get infected now. Right? Like that's it. That's, that's the end. know? yeah. Everybody because it's in the air and, and Caldwell mentions like it can go probably 10,000 miles with these spores and you won't know. So anyway, I think that he should be held responsible for the downfall of humanity partly.

I didn't think of that, yeah, the junkers.

Slava (01:04:24.748)
Yeah, because their deaths, Caldwell and Parks and the rest of them, except for Justinu, the characters we were with, their deaths signify the death of the old world and the beginning of a new type of quote unquote humanity replaced by Melanie and the society that the homeschoolers will build.

The homeschoolers. The homeschool Hungries. That's their team name. That's their sports team name.

Awesome.

What sports do they play? That's hungry fitting.

hot dog eating confidence.

Jonathan (01:05:04.888)
Hungry Eating Contest

There'd be a lot of eating contests.

It's the only contest.

Hold on, let me see what Chachaputty says and maybe can add something funny.

I was thinking they could play the squid games. One of them carries a gun and they play red light, green light. And if they see them move, they just pop off or whatever other games that you remember from the squid games.

Slava (01:05:31.766)
I've never watched the Squid Games. To my shame.

I think you enjoyed a lot. Korean survival story. Their whole thing, Slava, is that they want to survive.

okay. Okay. So there's no character growth.

Yeah, exactly. Carrying on.

As we're ending this, what did you think about the ending? And then we kind of touched upon it in some detail, but I'm not talking about what did you think about what happened? Meaning all the humans are dead. There's a new world asked and answered and discussed, but endings like this, where it's kind of open-ended. There is a mystery at the end. Do you like these kinds of stories where it ends, but there's an ambiguity?

Slava (01:06:20.62)
and you're left to wonder what the new world will bring.

So this one was fine. I know this in the past, sometimes I've had frustrations about how it ends and there's like too many questions. This one, I'm just kind of annoyed with Melanie that no one ever taught her that your decisions have consequences and just because you want something, it's like a kid who's not disciplined. It's like just because you want something and so like her thing that she wanted was to free the world for the hungry, right, whatever. Doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. So I know that you said,

discussed and talked about and blah, blah. But like my note at the ending was Melanie never took a philosophy class and addressed the trolley problem. She was the enemy the whole time. I liked it. Again, like the book as a whole, I'll read this again for sure. I'm not frustrated with the ending by any means. It was satisfying enough. I guess I'll say that. And I understand why it got public acclaim.

Yeah, I liked it for the reasons that I like endings like this. It sparks your imagination. It gives you a chance to think about what might happen. Like Justinu. She has to wear... Yeah, she's going to starve to death. She's in a biohazard suit and she's teaching the children. So how much does she have realistically to teach them? What does she choose to teach them?

She's gonna starve to death.

Jonathan (01:07:43.198)
And when Rosie runs out of gasoline, she's gonna die.

This is true.

So she's, she's literally going to survive for let's say three weeks. I don't think it'll be that long, but let's call it three weeks. She's going to die. So this is, this is my frustration. And I know you said we already talked about it. It's fine. This is my frustration. Like Melanie's choices have consequences. And the thing that she was trying to save is her, relationship with Justin new now granted the author doesn't spell all these things out that I picked that I am saying because I know how extrapolation works where it's like.

there are resources that are required to survive with, the character. I think it would have been another thing if they destroyed the fungal hedge, got through it and they came to beacon and beacon was overrun, but there was a ton of supplies. Like, okay, maybe she'll last a year. But again, this is me extrapolating the story.

That's a good one. I like that.

Slava (01:08:44.942)
It's actually really good. Why couldn't they go to a place where Justin, he could have some food and.

Because Melanie's an idiot, that's why. Wow. She's a child, she's an adolescent, she doesn't understand there's consequences to her actions. You can take this a different direction, I'm just No,

That's it folks, thanks for joining us on PsychQuest. Melanie's a moron.

What's the no, what's the little porky pig? But II but II but II but but that's all folks whatever that thing was

sorry Abby.

Slava (01:09:16.546)
That's what it was.

But like, this is the thing that like frustrated me because again, I think I have forethought is just how my mind was wired. So I'm like, okay, the other people are dead. She say she quote unquote saves Justin new to bring forth this new generation. it's like, but food, water, gasoline to run the thing. Like limited knowledge. She, you know, anyway, that's Slavism. I'm belaboring the point.

You've done that twice.

I learned from the best or the worst.

Well, since you're done belaboring,

Jonathan (01:09:57.474)
Labor as long as I wanna be laboring. Okay?

Well, you've labored enough, think, but if you want to labor on something, let's talk about the last safe zone. This is Psych West for those who haven't guessed. You, Jonathan, are tasked with building a sanctuary to protect survivors from the fungal apocalypse. What is your first rule of your safe zone? And let's go fun. What kind of fun or bizarre feature would...

it include to keep morale high.

The first rule of the safe zone is we don't talk about the safe zone. The second rule of the safe zone is we don't talk about the safe zone. The third rule is if we decide that we don't like you anymore, we put a bullet in your head.

of Fight Club.

Jonathan (01:10:48.91)
Yes, what fun or bizarre what you say what fun or bizarre rule

hungry fight

Slava (01:10:56.718)
Cool, what kind of fun or bizarre feature would your safe zone include to keep morale high?

So to bring back to something you mentioned earlier, we would have a jungle, we'd have different terrain and we would play zombie tag where we would have to learn how to escape the hungries in case anybody ever runs into that scenario. We'd be preparing for that and it's all fun and games. And I'm thinking like it's basically a part two of this book series where, you you go to a different part of the world and they're doing this.

And there's a Katniss Everdeen type and their place gets overrun and she has to use her efficiency at Zombie Tag to help her survive the wilderness and save her sister and love interest or whatever.

Well you stole my Fight Club Compilation or crossover so same for that I guess but

So you're not original. You're a homeschooler.

Slava (01:11:55.85)
No, everything's derivative, including this podcast. But fun morale game, since we talked about, you know, contest, eating contest, a blindfolded, a blindfolded eating contest called Guess What You're Eating. It features Mrs. Meats' scavenged from the wasteland. And if you win, you get an extra ration of canned beans.

Nope. Nope, I'm out.

Jonathan (01:12:15.584)
Nope. Nope.

Slava (01:12:25.225)
and unsettling knowledge of what you just consumed.

Nah, I'm out bro. Not happening.

Well, could be fun.

Enjoy. We did this, one of my birthday parties. was like, uh, something like it. There was like a spy themed. was like some sort of book, like, Hey, liven up your kid's birthday party, whatever it's called. There was a menu. So it was like spy themed, but there was a menu and you had to order things based on the spy menu, but the menu had names for things and they correlated to stuff that they didn't sound like. So it was like, you get the noodles McGee.

your birthday party.

Jonathan (01:13:04.482)
And was like a hot dog bun. That's it. And if you get the, you know, the, the secret spy, it's a plate of spaghetti, nothing on it. Right? Like just kind of a back and forth, whatever. So it wasn't blindfolded, but it was, it was blind in a sense. Cause you didn't have a context of what you were about to eat. Order, not eat order.

Cool story, bro. Yep. Thanks, Slava. Great. Just divulging my childhood here and just crickets on the other side.

Alright bro

Slava (01:13:40.404)
I thought it was something that happened last week and then you said kids. I'm like, is this like a story from your homeschooling days?

Yes. Okay. It is.

Well, that's it, folks. Make sure to share this episode with fellow book adventurers. It helps more listeners discover SideQuest. And join us next time for more hungry adventures. Until then, happy questing.

And be sure to come back to meet the recommender of today's Abby, Book and Crannies 2023 on Instagram and hear what she has to say on the next side quest.