Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Career success takes a status boost, not a power grab.

How do you chart the career course you’ve always imagined? According to Alison Fragale, it’s about gaining influence through status, power, and ultimately, being “a likeable badass.”
As a research psychologist, professor, speaker, and author, Fragale is on a mission to help women take control of their careers. In her book Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve, she argues that most people have it backwards when pursuing career advancement. "We have talked for a long time [about] getting more power," she explains. However, by focusing first on achieving status (how respected we are), power will often come as a natural byproduct. "If you pursue status before, or at least alongside power, everything is going to fall into place," she says. “Status makes power a lot easier to achieve, and it makes power a lot easier to use.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, hosted by executive producer Jenny Luna, Fragale explores the communication strategies of a likeable badass, from building warmth and assertiveness to authentically connecting with colleagues. Whether you're building relationships in a new company or have been leading one for years, Fragale’s insights will help you command respect while communicating with kindness.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:33) - Defining Power and Status
  • (05:38) - Why Status Comes Before Power
  • (06:31) - Communication Techniques to Build Status
  • (09:39) - Evaluating Your Habits: Nonverbal and Verbal Cues
  • (11:33) - Mentorship in Developing Communication
  • (13:25) - Adapting to a New Work Culture
  • (18:53) - Representing Difference Without Distance
  • (20:01) - Overcoming Bad First Impressions
  • (23:12) - The Final Three Question
  • (26:57) - Conclusion

********
Thank you to our sponsors.  These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost.

This episode is brought to you by Babbel. Think Fast Talk Smart listeners can get started on your language learning journey today- visit Babbel.com/Thinkfast and get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription.

Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be.

Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Alison Fragale
Research Psychologist | Professor | Keynote Speaker | Author
Producer
Jenny Luna
Executive producer of Think Fast Talk Smart

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: What do you get when
you combine warmth and assertiveness.

You get a likeable badass.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today we're excited to
speak with Alison Fragale.

Alison works at the University of
North Carolina's Business School.

She studies and teaches determinants
of consequences of power, status,

and influence in organizations,
conflict resolution and negotiations.

And she focuses on the verbal and
nonverbal elements of communication.

Her newest book is Likeable Badass:
How Women Get The Success They Deserve.

I could think of no better person to
interview Alison than our own executive

producer and likeable badass, Jenny Luna.

Here's Jenny.

Jenny Luna: Hi Alison.

It's so great to have you
on Think Fast Talk Smart.

Alison Fragale: Awesome to be here.

Jenny Luna: In your book, you write a
lot about power and status, and we've

talked about both extensively on this
show, but tell me how you define each.

And something you wrote in your book
that really caught my attention was,

it's less than ideal when we have this
power first, status second mentality.

Alison Fragale: So power is
controlling resources that have

value to you, value to others.

So money is a resource.

The ability to hire
and fire is a resource.

You hold car keys and your teenager
wants to drive a car, that's a resource.

So you are in control of something
that has value to you and other people.

That is how psychologists
generally talk about power.

Status is how much you're respected
and highly regarded by other people.

Power and status has
some things in common.

One is they're both sources of influence.

If you control the information, if
you control the budget, if you control

my performance review, I'm much more
likely to do what you say because those

resources matter to me and I want them.

So you are gonna have some
influence over what I do.

Similarly, if I look at you,
and I think, I really respect

you and value you, I'm much more
likely to listen to what you say.

I'm gonna trust that your ideas are good.

So power and status are both sources of
influence, and they're also similar in

that they are fundamental human needs.

All human beings want to be respected.

All human beings want to have some
control over resources that matter.

Not necessarily everything, but
they want to control something.

The difference is that one,
you can control resources

even if people oppose you.

With status, it's a judgment
in other people's minds.

You can't steal it.

You can't have it, without
their willing consent.

You only get as much status as
other people think you have and

other people want you to have.

This is one important difference.

And the other one, which you were
talking about that I talking about

the book, power First, status second.

There's no doubt that we have talked
about power and coach people for

a long time on getting more power.

There's a mentality that I hear, and
some people will even say it out loud.

As long as I can have the resources,
if I can be in charge, if I can be

paid, if I can advance, if I can
get to be in control, I don't really

care if people respect me or not.

Like I don't really care what they
think about me 'cause I'm winning.

I get what I want.

It doesn't feel good to not be respected.

But the challenge with status is that
it makes power a lot easier to achieve

and it makes power a lot easier to use.

Meaning we generally don't wanna give
resources to people that we don't respect.

Why would I give valuable things
to you if I don't respect you?

So when we are not respected by our
audiences, it makes acquiring power,

to advance, to get paid, things that I
talk to people a lot about, particularly

women, makes it a lot harder to achieve.

And even if you have the power, you
get a lot more resistance because

we don't like power being in the
hands of people we don't respect.

And so the experience of having power
and lacking status ends up being a very

miserable experience for most people.

Jenny Luna: So it sounds like we
wanna focus on getting the respect

of our audience and people first.

Alison Fragale: They're both important,
but if you ignore status and you just

are pursuing a life of power, one,
you're not gonna be that successful.

And even if you do succeed, you're
gonna get a lot of pushback.

Whereas if you pursue status before,
or at least alongside power, everything

is gonna fall into place, right?

People are gonna be much more willing
to give you those resources and when

you have them, people are gonna be
much more interested in allowing you

to use them and doing what you say.

It's not to downgrade power
and say power is not important.

It is.

We've been talking a lot about it relative
to the very little conversation we have

about status, which is not only important,
it's also essentially a prerequisite.

If you are respected by your audience,
all the other good things are just

gonna start to come a lot easier.

Jenny Luna: This show, it's all about
communication, and our audience really

likes tools and techniques that they can
start applying to their life right away.

So what are some tactics for speaking,
and then even some nonverbal ways of

communicating, that you think we can
use to be more likeable and more badass?

Alison Fragale: So take a step back and
answer your question, which is, as it

said, likeable badass, catchy term, but
it's referencing something specific.

It is referencing where
does status come from?

And so the idea is that this
is a communication process.

I show up in the world and I do something.

And if it convinces you that
you respect me, what convinces

you that you should respect me?

Two things.

One is, do you care about
people other than yourself?

So if I communicate to my audience
that I care about them and at

least care about somebody that's
not just me, we respect that.

We don't want to interact with
selfish people or competitive

people who are gonna hurt us.

We want to interact with people who
are gonna make our lives better.

So that's one thing we
have to communicate.

Second, people can rely on us, that we
know what we're doing in some capacity.

Even if I think you care, if I
can't trust you to execute anything

well, I'm not really gonna respect
you because I can't depend on you.

So likeable and badass, psychologists
would call it warmth and assertiveness.

I need to convince you that I care and
I can take charge of my environment

and I, I know what I'm doing.

Those are your two communication
challenges to build your status.

You asked about words and
verbals and nonverbals.

It can come through those behaviors.

It can also come through actions, all
different ways in which we show up.

What are nonverbals that
are gonna convey warmth.

Smiling conveys warmth.

Eye contact conveys warmth,
so mimicry conveys warmth.

If you cross your legs and
I cross my legs, that's a, a

warmth behavior, assertiveness
to control of our environment.

Faster reads of speech, what we
call a shorter response latency.

There's always a gap between when
you stop speaking and when I start.

And the shorter that gap, the more
assertive I'm perceived to be.

I didn't have to think
very long about my answer.

I had it ready to go.

It's a sign of capability.

Contact is a sign of warmth, but
it is also a sign of assertiveness.

When I first started doing this
kind of status work, I looked

at the pair of verbal cues.

I'll use women because
women are often counseled.

Don't use all the hedges and disclaimers
and tag questions, that stuff's bad.

Do the more direct communication.

The less direct, when I hedge, when I
put in disclaimers, when I turn sentences

into questions, that does build warmth,
it's seen as a warmer behavior, but

the more assertive, there are no filler
words, I say exactly what I mean,

every statement ends in a period, every
question ends in a question mark, that

behavior is seen as more assertive.

So those kinds of behaviors that
we exhibit do affect people's

belief that we care about them
and that we know what we're doing.

Those are not the only ways.

There are all kinds of
other things that we do.

The content, for example, of
the communication is also really

important for signaling those things.

Jenny Luna: It sounds like there's a
bunch of tools as we approach different

situations and different people when
we're trying to either show power,

warmth in both at the same time.

Alison Fragale: There's the
non-negotiables and the negotiables.

The non-negotiable is every time you
show up in front of an audience, whether

that's an audience of one, an audience
of many, whether it's in person or

virtual on social media, whatever your
audience is, when you show up in front

of them in ways that convey you care
about them and you know what you're

talking about, you will build status.

That's the non-negotiable part
that everyone is trying to achieve.

How do I do that?

That's where you have infinite ways.

And so those tools that you talk about,
verbal and nonverbal communication, it's

good to be aware of them because you wanna
know, do I have behaviors that are working

for me, or might I actually have some
habits that I'm not particularly aware

of that are detracting from my status,
and I don't even know that I do it?

One example that I've been made
aware of is self-deprecating.

So actually voluntarily put
out a statement that says,

I am terrible at something.

People do that all the time.

If you tell somebody you're not very good
at something, they generally believe you.

And so you're saying, I'm
not capable in this domain.

And we do that for a variety of reasons.

Sometimes we do it to convey warmth
to say, oh, I'm not better than you.

Look at all my mistakes too.

Sometimes we do it as a form of humor, but
it's all to say that many times we might

be doing something that is detrimental
to building our status and we're not

aware of what it is, and therefore
we're not even in a position to decide

is this authentic and true to who I am
and I'm sticking with it anyway, or no,

I actually think I should change that.

Jenny Luna: Another thing we talk
about on the show is feedback.

When we're trying to see how
we show up, we may be missing

things and having big blind spot.

You write a lot about
mentorship and having a mentor.

I imagine a big part of that is getting
feedback on things like how we show up.

Alison Fragale: Yeah.

My big thing on mentorship is at
every stage of your life, you should

have mentors and you should be
mentoring other people from your

first day in the workforce, if not
before, and certainly your last day.

We always need to be doing both.

And on the getting mentorship side, yes.

One of the things that I have found
is that people who find it fairly

easy to communicate, likeable badass,
to communicate assertiveness more at

the same time, almost always without
fail, will tell me that they lucked

into a mentor early in their life or
career that modeled that for them,

and that mentorship shouldn't just
be something we luck into by chance.

For me, I talk about this a lot, that
my advisor, when I went to Stanford,

when I got my PhD, is a woman and
what was interesting was I signed on

to work with her because of content
expertise, that she was an expert in

organizational psychology in the areas
where I also wanted to develop expertise.

I didn't pick her because I thought
she can teach me a lot about

building status and navigating
reputation and things like that.

But when I think back on what
did she teach me that has been

most impactful in my career?

It's not the academic stuff, but what
she was really brilliant at doing was

thinking about, with intention, the
relationship between how she communicated

with her audience, her words, her
actions, her verbals, nonverbals, all of

that and what that would bring to her.

And she was able to articulate that
to me at a young age of, here's how

you need to think about your audience.

Jenny Luna: So sounds like we wanna
look for people who emulate what we are

looking to be, more so than have the
job or the role that we currently have.

I've been really looking forward
to talking with you because

I just started a new job.

In my new job i'm filling my calendar,
coffee dates, forming relationships,

walking meetings, getting to know people.

And the first thing I'm noticing is in my
former role, there was a lot more small

talk, a lot more relationship building
that came in these early meetings.

My new role people cut right to the chase.

They wanna just talk business.

There's no personal questions
or really foundation to be laid.

So I'm, would love to hear some advice
from you on, do I revert and push

that culture, way of getting to know
people and trying to set relationships?

Or do I go more for the mimicry
and meet people where they're at?

Alison Fragale: Try a combination of both.

You can experiment, you can change a
variable, you can see what happens.

You don't have to do one thing
consistently with every person forever.

So what might I try?

We often follow people's leads.

So if you go in and you are the
first mover in the conversation and

you start with a couple personal
things or a couple of questions,

you can see what response you get.

If you are quiet when you walk in and
they cut straight to the business, it

might feel more awkward at that point to
be like, wait, let's go back a minute.

You can try to control the conversation
from the beginning while still being

sensitive to conversational norms.

Where you get a sense if someone
says, I've had enough of this line of

questioning, and they're ready to move on.

The second thing you can think about
is you're playing a repeated game.

So if someone in a, an initial
interaction is very focused on the

task at hand and you think, wow,
there wasn't much opportunity there.

What else could I do for a second round?

People's lives are largely online, so
you can, in a very appropriate way,

stalk somebody and learn a lot about
them that gives you an opportunity

in the next interaction to, to lead
with something that might get them

interested in talking about things
that are a little more personal.

That could be from looking at
their social media, reading

their bio on the company website.

It could be talking to people who
know them, and what you would be

looking for is points of similarity.

If we look at psychology, right?

Greatest basis of liking and
attraction that psychology

has ever found is similarity.

And we like people who are
like us when you find the

thing that they have in common.

Obviously when you're trying to highlight
similarities, you have to be authentic.

You can't pretend to
like things you don't.

It's gonna come across as phony.

It's gonna destroy their relationship.

But you could also be very strategic
in looking for opportunities.

So in the book, I tell a story of
another academic Greg Northcraft.

I know Greg through Maggie Neale.

Greg and Maggie were assistant
professors back at Arizona

together long before I met her.

And then I come into his circle as well.

And so what he tells me is that one of the
things he feels like he did really well

in navigating his life as a professional
in, in academia is developing personal

connections with people by figuring
out genuine points of similarity.

And he said, look, I love to golf.

And so the first thing I always
try to do is figure out does

the other person like to golf?

'Cause I know if I can meet a
fellow golfer, I can make a friend.

And if I can make a friend, I'm
gonna have a much easier time getting

what I want and need because people
will do things for friends that

they won't do for, for strangers.

He develops a consistent habit of trying
to find the common points between him

and his audience wherever he goes.

And he tells me this story, which I
relay in the book, and he said, the

time that it worked better than ever was
he had to go meet somebody on campus.

The subject was scarce resources,
scarce money, every reason to think

there was going to be a bit of a fight.

Because everybody wants the money.

He said, but I did something intentional.

I had the status to ask this guy to come
to my office, but I deliberately said,

let's schedule the meeting in your office.

He said, I'll come to you, and he
said, I did that for one reason only.

I wanted to scan his physical
space because then I could

learn about him and then I could
strike up a personal connection.

So he says, I'm shaking his
hand, and as I'm doing it, I'm

looking over his shoulder like,
what's in this guy's office?

And he says, you're not gonna believe it.

In the guy's office, behind the
desk is a hole in one trophy.

Said, if you're a golfer and you ever see
a hole in one trophy, two things are true.

One, there's a great story behind that
trophy and the person behind the desk

is just dying to tell you what it is.

So this idea of how do I
get people to chit chat?

He made the opening, I see
you've got a hole in one trophy.

You've gotta tell me about that.

And he knows the person
can't wait to tell.

And he says, we spend fifty-five of
our allotted sixty minutes chatting

golf, and by that point we are friends.

And we take five minutes and we
solve our money problem amicably

in those last five minutes.

And so I tell that story, I tell
the book, I tell it all the time in

front of audiences, and what I love
about it is it's a beautiful blend

of authenticity and strategy, right?

If I don't know somebody, I've gotta
learn about what they care about, and

I've gotta figure out our points of
common interest, and I've gotta bring

them into the conversation, and I'm gonna
do that deliberately with intention by

going to someone else's office, by asking
questions, doing the homework, et cetera.

That's where you can start to bring those
two together using behavioral science

and who you truly are, merge the two.

And you get this very fun, authentic
way to live that also reaps large

benefits by people finding the ways
in which they see themselves in you.

Jenny Luna: I love that because if
we think we're gonna be strategic and

intentional, we often think that we don't
get to be authentic and be ourselves.

And so that's just such a beautiful
way to show that we can do both

where it benefits everyone.

Alison Fragale: I spend a lot of time
right now and in this stage of my

career speaking to women specifically,
but what I'm about to say does not

just apply to women, but it applies
to anybody who looks different than

the majority of people around them.

I always say, if you look different
and don't take any intentional

action, it's possible that what you're
communicating unintentionally to your

audience is I am different than you.

We don't have anything in
common, so if we show up, we look

different, and that's all there is.

And we just get down to the business
at hand, what our audience might

conclude is we're not the same.

And that is not gonna be to
our strategic advantage 'cause

human beings like similarity.

Everybody has to do this.

Something to be aware of is between
any two human beings, there are genuine

points of similarity and connection.

If you can find them, you can
rise above any other perceived

difference and show people the true
things that you have in common.

Jenny Luna: Yeah.

So we need to highlight that
difference right away and bring that

up rather than try to sweep it under
the rug or pretend it's not there.

Something I've also been thinking
a lot about in my new role is first

impressions and how important those are.

But I'm curious, let's say we didn't
set the right first impression.

I didn't maybe get that warmth and
assertiveness out in the first meeting.

How bound am I to that first
impression that I'm making?

Alison Fragale: You're
not bound to it, right?

First impressions change.

You've changed your mind about people,
so they'll change their mind about you.

But if you use yourself as a
starting point and say, hmm, when

I've changed my mind about people,
I don't change my mind as easily

as I formed my initial impression.

So it might not be one more meeting,
it might be two, three, and four.

I might have to work on it a little bit.

That's one thing to keep in mind.

Um, second thing is another
negotiation tactic that can be

useful here is to use an agent.

Sometimes we may not be the best messenger
if we feel like we got off perhaps on the

wrong foot, or I wasn't able to show up
in the assertive, warm way that I wanted.

Maybe my first meeting with somebody
was about a disagreement or a conflict.

How am I gonna convey that who
really respects me, that also

has the respect of my audience?

How could I use that person to help build
my status, help change my reputation.

If you've ever had an awkward interaction
with somebody and you find out every

other person you talk to loves them
and thinks they're spectacular,

and then you think, huh, maybe I
should give 'em a second chance.

The more people that are out there
saying, right, oh, Jenny's amazing,

Alison's amazing, the better off.

So that's something you could think
about doing very deliberately, is to

say to somebody who really does respect
you and value, say, I'm new here.

I don't have a lot of opportunity
to interact with this person.

Or maybe our first interaction
really wasn't that smooth.

Can you help me?

Can you, when it feels natural,
talk about the great work

that I'm doing and use them.

And so a lot of times it's just
about changing the messenger.

Jenny Luna: So at the end
of every episode, we ask

each guest three questions.

Two that we've been asking
everybody, and then one that

we make up, especially for you.

Are you ready?

Alison Fragale: Yes.

Jenny Luna: So I'm curious, what are
you excited to study next, or what's

bubbling up to the surface for you now?

Alison Fragale: So what I've been
doing a lot on, is thinking about

this idea of power without status.

It's a downer because it is a lot
about the bad things that happen to

us while we have power without status.

So I've still been doing a lot of work in
that space to show how important status

is and being able to live the life.

So I've been doing a lot of work
in civility and the mistreatment

that happens to people.

And again, although it's a bit of a
downer, one of the things that I'm

very focused on is how do we retain
women throughout the career life

cycle, particularly in what was like
a leaky middle, where women, after

having some success and advancing
in organizations, are often leaving

at like mid to senior levels.

And it has a lot to do with what we see
in terms of, of surveys of women feeling

like as they get more power, but if they
haven't successfully navigated status,

they're encountering more interpersonal
mistreatment, worse work environments.

And that is prompting them to say, I don't
wanna do this anymore, and I'm exiting.

So I'm still doing that work and what
I'm excited about is bringing that

over to think about how do we create
a better experience for women in the

workforce at mid to senior levels
that are gonna keep them advancing

and keep better representation at
the most senior levels for women.

Bringing those two things
together is something that

I'm excited about right now.

Jenny Luna: Awesome.

I'll look forward to reading
your next book as you move

forward with that research.

Who is a communicator you admire and why?

Alison Fragale: Maybe because she is
top of mind, but Maggie, my advisor,

may be well known to this audience,
but not worldwide, necessarily famous.

She taught me more than anything how
to be very clear and assertive about

what it is that you want, while also
never faltering from the importance

of doing right by other people.

I think that's why she's able to be
very successful and I feel like a lot

of times still to this day, twenty-five
years after I met her, when I confront

things that I think are difficult
communication challenges, I'm always

thinking like, what would Maggie do here?

And there are still times
where I call her and I say, my

first instinct is to do this.

And then she would say,
let's think about that.

Like how would your
audience react to that?

She's been very good at doing that
and also teaching me to get into the

head of my audience, that curiosity,
a lot of that came from her.

Jenny Luna: Alison, what are
three ingredients that go into a

successful communication recipe?

Alison Fragale: Authenticity,
strategy, and curiosity.

Jenny Luna: Tell me a
bit more about curiosity.

Alison Fragale: Communication is going
to be a communicator and a receiver.

The more curious you are about your
audience, the better able you are

to communicate in a way that's going
to land, that's going to resonate.

When I think about people who are
really good communicators, or when I

think about times when I've done a good
versus a bad job, the more curious I am

about trying to understand my audience,
it informs the other two, right?

Authenticity was obviously your
version of, of you, but it informs

the strategy, so we have to
get curious about other people.

Jenny Luna: Thank you so much.

This has been a great
conversation, Alison.

I've learned a lot and I'm excited
to apply some of the things we've

talked about to my new job too.

Alison Fragale: Amazing.

Pleasure to be here.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about status
and power, please listen to

episode 12 with Deb Grunfeld.

And to learn more about the work of
Maggie Neale, please listen to episode 15.

This episode was produced by Jenny Luna,
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.

Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram
and check out FasterSmarter.io for

deep dive videos, English language
learning content and our newsletters.

Please consider our premium offering
for extended Deep Thinks episodes,

Ask Matt Anythings and much more
at FasterSmarter.io/premium.