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The only Cardinals podcast dumber than running on Yadi. A weekly podcast mostly about the St. Louis Cardinals.
Room recording
===
Nate: [00:00:00] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Talking About Birds, the only cardinal podcast asked to put their tarps back on. My name is Nate Heininger, and I am joined by my co-host, Ben Somorca.
ben: That's not true. They wanna see the bod.
Nate: If you have an idea for the opening bit, text or leave us a voicemail at 848-48-BIRDS. Hambone, doing today? You're in a, uh, you're in a unique recording setup, uh, which is not that new to us on the show, but, uh, can you break us down what you're doing right
ben: Unique New York. Unique
Nate: Red leather, yellow leather.
ben: I'm, uh... Well, first off, Nate, it's a lovely day here in Denver, Colorado. It's a little gloomy. Temperature's great, though. Um, [00:01:00] I know people... Yeah, that's, it's mid-50s right now. And I am getting work done on my house, and they are-- These guys are drilling. They're essentially cutting a huge hole in the ceiling that is about, um, six feet from where I normally record.
So I thought rather than deal with that, like I said, it's a lovely day. You can hear some, some loud bangs and cra- There's a plane going over right now. You might be able to hear that too. So maybe this was... Okay, well, maybe this was poorly conceived, but I thought it'd be nice to just record outside rather than,
Nate: He's,
ben: to fight through that.
Nate: he's holding his microphone like
ben: Yep.
Nate: a, a broadcaster. Um, I assume, so six foot hole, you're installing some sort of fireman pole type thing, so you don't wanna, use the stairs anymore?
ben: Are, are you implying that firemen are lazy?
Nate: Uh, no, but I
ben: Wow, anti-fireman. Anti-fireman Nate Heineger, that's shocking.
Nate: That'd, [00:02:00] that'd be a pretty unique take. I don't think... Is there anyone
ben: Universally beloved.
Nate: Yeah. Like maybe the one job that everyone is like, "Yeah, all right, that's a
ben: Yeah.
Nate: good guy," you know, or gal. Uh, we, we like a fire person.
ben: Yeah. Well, I like a fire person. Um, no, that'd be dope. We're getting a... This is so uninteresting and nobody cares about this. We're getting a house fan installed, um So that we can suck in the cold air from outside and push the, the warm air out. I live in a very old house, and it is a thermos. So yeah, I'm sure people care about that, but if you wanna know more about a house fan, you know, reach out to, uh, talkingaboutbirds@gmail.com, and I, I've, I've learned a lot recently.
Nate: Great.
ben: Attic fans and house fans are different. Did you know that?
Nate: uh, I don't have an attic, so I've never bothered to research, uh, attic-related information.
ben: Yeah, God forbid you learn something new. Geez.
Nate: Yeah. No. If it's [00:03:00] not relevant to me and my personal life and my, my experiences, then I'm frankly just not interested
ben: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Nate: And I think that's a good way to live.
ben: Wow.
Nate: Um, we gotta talk about tarps off, Hambone.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: the nation.
ben: It actually is.
Nate: I- it's so funny. It's such a... Like, last, week we were so innocent. We were so naive
ben: Yeah.
Nate: to the future,
ben: Right.
Nate: over the span of seven days, uh, our entire lives as Cardinal fans would change.
ben: Um, I don't know. I, I feel like you're, you're being a... I don't know. Are you being overly dramatic? Are you being very, uh, uh... I, I, I feel like you're not taking this seriously. Uh, uh, not taking it as seriously as it should be taken.
Nate: I- I'm deadly serious
ben: Oh, okay. Okay.
Nate: I, I, I mean, I- it's a lot of fun, right? I mean, how can this be [00:04:00] anything
ben: Well,
Nate: fun and, and, and representative of, of the current vibe of the team?
ben: I th- I think I threw this out in the Bird Squad, but I think we have officially defeated the male loneliness epidemic, um, in, in one weekend. It's, it's over.
Nate: Dude, I'll tell you, you... When, when they show, uh, when they show the tarps off crowd, feel like I gotta wear sunglasses. It certainly seems to be, uh, a coalescence of the whitest boys in America are all there in right field, uh, just gleaming in the sun or in the bright lights of the, uh, of the ballpark.
ben: I like that it is, um, like baseball. Like, you know, uh, José Altuve and Aaron Judge can both play the same game and, and be successful. Anybody can go tarps off. It's, it's... Yeah, maybe it's overwhelmingly white, but the shapes and sizes are
Nate: Oh,
ben: across a wide swath, and I love that. I think it's [00:05:00] beautiful
Nate: It certainly seems to be a welcoming crowd. I don't want to imply anything otherwise. It's just, it's, it's very funny to me. Um, but I, I genuinely am a big fan of it. We've lamented that, uh, baseball in the United States has, is, uh, at from a fan perspective, is, is quite tame compared to, uh, baseball played everywhere else in the world.
It is, like, a raucous, fun environment when you, if you go to a, uh,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: baseball game anywhere else. Um, and this is the closest I've seen Busch, at least, uh, to that sort of thing, and I'm super into it. Like, I don't know that this version of it is going to sustain of, like, an entire section of the ballpark full of 20-year-olds with their shirts off.
Um, but like,
ben: I mean, why not though? They, they, they have nowhere to be. They have no, you know, nothing tethering them down. Like they-- why not show up to the ballpark and sit in the bleachers and [00:06:00] take your shirt off?
Nate: I mean, w- we're getting in, uh, like the second inning of a tied game in May. You've got chants of MVP, or there
ben: Mm-hmm.
Nate: "Pirates suck" chant going on
ben: Yeah.
Nate: night. You know, just complete, like, atmosphere, uh, for a random game in May. Like, I think it's, I think it's incredible, and I, I really hope that it, it maintains, 'cause, like, this is such an antidote to the, uh, the staleness of, of what we've seen in the game.
And, uh, pair that with the, the winning team and the, the overall vibe and the, got that dog in them and all that. Like, I, I don't know. I think it's great. I think
ben: well, that--
Nate: of fun.
ben: And I think it's, you know, may-maybe we can do a end of season retrospective at some point, but I, I wonder, like, is it the nature of the team, the, the Jor-Jordan Walker and Mason Wynn, um, [00:07:00] JJ Wetherholt youth i-injection that has led to these boys taking their nips out, or was it going to happen either way?
Did it, did it take both of the-- Like, did it all have to come together? Um, like why now, you know, is, is my question. Um, and, and I also, you know, the t- the way that the team embracing it i-is definitely unique to, I think, the 2026 Cardinals. Like, I don't think that this-- I don't think the, the boys are coming down into the clubhouse and hanging out in the locker room last year.
You know what I mean? Like, I, I don't know if Mo is allowing that to happen. I don't know if Nolan Arenado is allowing that to happen, and I am projecting wildly right now, but that is my outsider read of the situation, and it's, it's interesting
Nate: All right. Nolan Arenado doing quite well for the Diamondbacks, by the way. I don't know if you've noticed, he's really broken out of a early season slump and [00:08:00] looking okay for them,
ben: I know. I was diving, I was diving through the, like, Statcast numbers and all that, and it's like nothing differ- uh, different is happening. He's maybe swinging a little bit less. Ballpark is an improvement.
Nate: yeah.
ben: But, uh, he's also not playing amazing defense so far. But, um, yeah, I was a little annoyed by that, but, you know, it is what it is.
Busch Stadium's hard to hit in.
Nate: Yeah. We, we all saw it coming, right? So, uh, anyway. I... So, as I, I've done no research on this, but from my understanding, this actually was something that was happening at, like, a Texas like a football
ben: Who, who could say? Who-- I mean, who could-- Who has the time to know that?
Nate: has the time? Uh, but it, like, started there, the shirts off thing, and then it was just, like, one row of guys at that game on Friday night. Uh, and it expanded to the entire section, and then here we are five days later, and it's, like, a whole thing which
ben: Yeah.
Nate: uh, which is great. I'm going to the game tonight, um, [00:09:00] for, uh, the, uh, Girl Scouts Day at the Park.
ben: Wow.
Nate: don't know that, uh, tarps off will be my vibe as I sit with that, uh, that crowd. But I'm
ben: You could, you could walk over and, and pop off for an inning or two.
Nate: Possibly. Possibly. We'll see. I'm not against it. I, I was wondering, have
ben: You could add to the, the white nature of
Nate: Oh, yeah. A gleaming,
ben: Yeah. Your concave chest shining light, blinding the batter.
Nate: Um, are you a tarps off guy? Are you, are you... You know, there's, like... We all know people who just, like, pop their top off at any opportunity. Do you feel like you're a, a tarps off guy?
ben: No, I-- no. I-- and it's, it's, it's not my vibe, um,
Nate: Yeah.
ben: out, at the pool. I'm not a, I'm not gonna wear my shirt in the, in the water. I'm not that kinda guy. But I do think, um... Really, I don't wanna, I don't wanna rain on anyone's parade, but it is [00:10:00] totally not my, my thing
Nate: It's...
ben: where I would, where I would lean in any way. Um, but I do think, um, pools, the beach.
And you know what? If you're having a good, if you're having a good-- I do think that you don't need to. Normal societal norms are not always applicable in a sporting environment, so I am not offended by it or anything like that. I, I will say, if I'm being 100% honest with myself, if I was seated next to the Tarps Off crew, I might move.
Um, but that's me being, you know, myself and a bit of a grouch. Like, "Well, boys, I'm trying to watch." And they are watching the game, and they are locked in.
Nate: They're in,
ben: but you know, I'm
Nate: of it. Their chants are relevant. Their chants are, are relevant to the moment, you know? They're living ball to strike.
ben: 100%. And I'm, um, just not a 23-year-old. I, I-- When [00:11:00] I was 23, I, I bet you nips out, screaming, chugging Budweisers.
Nate: Uh-huh.
ben: and you know, it pains me to say, I think I'm just, I think I've aged out of the tarps off crew, but
Nate: aged, aged up. Go on, boys.
ben: I, and I do think, um, a-and maybe it's, uh, from a place of jealousy. Who kn- we, we don't have the time to dive into this, but the guy who's looking for any excuse to pop the tarp off, um, in any situation, I'm like, "Buddy,
Nate: I think
ben: it's attention-seeking behavior."
Nate: Yeah, yeah. Um, also not my vibe. I think I probably ha- would be the same as you.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: but again, I think I've, you know, made it quite clear, like I, I'm all for this, but myself popping the
ben: There, there's a machismo that I know I lack, and I'm just, you know, I just, I'm not that guy, and that's, I've made peace with that a while ago. But
Nate: Uh, well, we're here for it. I, I, I am wondering how [00:12:00] long it will go. Like, is this something that can sustain through a losing streak? Is this just... These boys, they must have a, a frat house to return to at some point or so. Or is this going to become a, just a, you
ben: school's out for summer, baby.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: So, I mean, they got, uh, that I, I'm sure Cardinals tickets are fairly cheap right now. I know they got that like, uh, like $25 deal or whatever where you can eat 1,000 hot dogs for 25 bucks or whatever. Like, I, I...
Nate: in Big Mac land, though, so
ben: I also think, like, those guys are having fun win, lose, or draw.
So, like, when, I don't, when is that gonna stop being fun? I don't know. I, I think it might be here for a little bit. I was surprised they were there last night.
Nate: I know. That's why I thought it was, you know... I, Friday night it was like, "Okay, this is a thing." I expect it to go through the weekend. But yeah, just a random Tuesday night game against the Pirates. They're, they're screaming at every strike call, at every ball, you know. Like,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: they're in it, and I, I love it.
ben: Yeah
Nate: and the [00:13:00] Cardinals are continuing to play well. They are, uh, as we stand, they're 28 and 19. Uh, nine games above 500, tied for second place. Uh, we'll talk about the upcoming series here in a minute, but they are going through a run of NL Central, uh, uh, match-ups here. So, like, the division standings are very much at play as the Cardinals are, are playing well.
Obviously, it's only May, we'll reiterate, you know, last year at the end of May, the Cardinals were eight games above 500. There's still a whole lot of baseball to play before these standings start to really lock in. But regardless, under any metric, this is considerably better than anyone expected them to be at this point.
And it certainly, maybe I'm just riding the Tarps Off vibe, the big dog in them vibe or whatever, but like, the, the energy is there and it feels like this team is actually good. Now, whether they'll be this good for the whole season, we'll find out. There's a lot of
ben: [00:14:00] Well, I,
Nate: go.
ben: I think it's the nature of having the youngest position player group in baseball. You know, it's like
Nate: Yeah.
ben: I- Ivan Herrera and Jordan Walker and Mason Wynn and all these guy-- Like, most people in the industry are like, "Yeah, they, these guys will probably continue to get better 'cause they're 24 years old, um, or 25 years old."
It makes-- Traditionally, baseball players get better around this age bracket, and they're ar- they're showing real signs of progress and, like, I think you should, you know, everybody should be really worried and holding their breath pretty much anytime any pitcher is on the mound for the Cardinals. But I mean, the offense and the defense are legit, and the pitching is trending right.
Um, I, I don't think that they, uh... I'm not placing any bets on Kalshi for the,
Nate: What?
ben: to win the Central, but,
Nate: we're of course... Well, hold on. Let's be clear. We're
ben: I'm betting on other things.
Nate: Yeah, we're, we're doing our daily betting. Please,
ben: This--
Nate: of [00:15:00] our list- listeners
ben: Right.
Nate: are betting. You know, bet every day, bet hard, bet everything every day.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Don't ever not be betting.
ben: Yeah. Bet early, bet often. But,
Nate: bet hard.
ben: I don't know. I'm feeling like, like, like we, we talked about this in the, earlier in the year. We got those 28 wins. They're banked, Nate. They can't take those away from us, so.
Nate: can't take... Try to take them from me.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Just
ben: We're gonna have to have--
Nate: That's
ben: There, there's probably a really bad month of baseball in this team at some point, but hasn't happened yet.
Nate: You know who's playing well right now? I mean, this guy's near and dear to our heart. We've actually, you know, we've been, we've been dealing with an infection for years now that's
ben: Hmm.
Nate: as
ben: Yeah.
Nate: our various creams. Um, but the Gormania, it's spreading right now.
ben: It really is.
Nate: about Nolan Gorman?
ben: I don't know how to feel about Nolan Gorman because
Nate: know.
ben: it, it is when it's bad, it [00:16:00] is unwatchable. It, it, it is unplayable. It is a black hole. The good news is, and I think I've finally come around to this and, and I think other people probably came around to this sooner, is that the defense is looking a lot better at third base this year.
Uh, which means he's not completely unplayable. He's, he's-- The pirouette I think is what they call it on the broadcast, but the, uh, the ranging scoop 360 spin throw to first, I'm enjoying that. That's a good time. Uh, especially from a big old boy that doesn't really look
Nate: does.
ben: super athletic out there. Um, but I'm enjoying that.
I think the third base defense is solid.
Nate: Yeah, he's currently, uh, 83rd percentile in outs above average, uh, at two. It's a big red bar on Statcast. I,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: think anyone would've anticipated, um, you know, a big red bar for him in that category.
ben: And I, I think with like
Nate: good.
ben: the clarity of sitting here on May 20th [00:17:00] while the Cardinals are playing pretty well and, and being able to say, "Oh yeah, he probably should have never been playing second base. That probably totally screwed with everything, messed up his development," that all makes a lot of sense to say now.
Um, and I think we were bending over backwards to give him accolades for even being able to play a passable second base. But I think he's looking a lot better over there, and the fact of the matter is he has a 135 WRC+ in May right now. Um, in May, he's also leading the team in exit velocity, barrels, hard hit percentage, and his xWOBA, um, the expected WOBA, uh, weighted on base, uh, uh, is 427 in the month of May, which is
Nate: I
ben: MVP level.
Nate: yeah, that's, uh... You-- hard to get much better than that. That's like Juan Soto peak sort of stuff.
ben: Yeah. He hadn't--
Nate: not gonna sustain, but,
ben: No.
Nate: you know.
ben: No. And, and actually he's-- So what's funny is he's, he's doing like, he's got a 135 [00:18:00] WRC+ this month, and the expected stats are actually saying he is underperforming by quite a bit. He hit a bomb last night. Um, his WRC+ on the season is sitting at 99. Obviously, that's trending up. So I don't, I don't know what to think.
Like, is, is this long runway? Is he apps-- is he actually having the time and the at-bats to do the thing that we, you know, thought he could do a couple of years ago when he hit those 27 bombs? And I couldn't believe, they said it on the broadcast last night, he has 80 career home runs. I would have undershot that by half maybe if I was just guessing.
Um, maybe it's happening. You know, a, a month we're, we're-- it's like right at 60 plate appearances, and I-- we've said this 80 times this year, but like Any baseball player can do anything over 60, uh, plate appearances. Um, is it real? Is it not? I don't know, but he's doing it right now. All the metrics look good.
He's walking, he's hitting the ball hard. He's got a good launch angle. The defense is looking [00:19:00] solid. Obviously, his vibes are great. I've really enjoyed the, uh, I don't know if you've noticed this on the post game, the very slow Gatorade jug pour that he's doing.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: Gorman, and it's always, like, in half speed.
It's, it's very, very slow and deliberate.
Nate: He, he makes me-- Like, he kinda looks like a bully from an '80s movie, um, but comes off as quite the opposite. By all accounts, he's a, a, a fantastic vibes guy. He just-
ben: Yeah.
Nate: You know, you, you can't control what your face looks like, but he look, he just looks like a bully to me, like someone who's gonna come and flip you upside down and take your lunch money. Um, but he seems to be a quite a pleasant, uh, nice guy, so I don't wanna, uh,
ben: I think that's a little naty, naty projection on, uh, on this guy. We don't think--
Nate: Uh,
ben: the time to dig into right now.
Nate: maybe I want him to pick me up and, and,
ben: Hey.
Nate: money. I don't, I don't know. Um,
ben: fi- there's [00:20:00] nothing wrong with that.
Nate: here, here's the, the thing with Nolan Gorman has always been he's incredibly streaky. When, when he's right, he looks like the best hitter in baseball, and when he's wrong, it looks unplayable.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: defense does a- make you feel a little bit better about those cold stretches, um, but, uh, at the end of the day, he has to be able to hit consistently. So we'll find out. We're in, here's another round of Gorman crushing it. It has been a while since we've seen this, so it's quite good. I think a lot of us were a little worried that he was cooked after the, the two months of pretty bad play last year and then the one month of bad play to start this year.
You're like, maybe it, maybe it's just done. We have enough of a MLB understanding at this point to move on." And it was even starting to maybe go that a little way with Urias getting more plate appearances and
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Um, but now we're seeing it again. It's like, okay, he's doing it again, so is this just [00:21:00] another wave and it's gonna collapse again?
Or I don't know. You know, to be fair to him, this is his first time really that's like, third base is yours. There's,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: it, it could be all season, it could be short. It depends on, on your play." It's never really been that. Even last year it was like, "Aronado will be back at some point. You better make it work while you have it," you know? so this is a little different, and obviously the vibes on the team are different. The hitting approach has been different. Like, there's enough to say this is different. Maybe this time the wave of good Gorman will last longer or be more sustainable or whatever. I don't know. Uh, but it's certainly good to see it happening again, and it fundamentally improves this lineup in a way that, uh, you know, that, that, that really starts to project this offense as, as good and not just hot.
ben: Yeah, and it, it just-- Nolan Gorman being good really... Like I, I feel like third base is probably, and I, I-- [00:22:00] maybe I would if I were to think about this answer longer, I would disagree with this. But third base organizationally is kind of the weakest spot. Like we're talking about, well, maybe Blaze Jordan could be a viable third baseman, like if the bat carries.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: Nolan Gorman just being a good third baseman with good power and a, a lefty power bat to kind of slot in and around Ivan and Jordan Walker solves a ton of issues for the foreseeable future. He's only 26. He still has control. He still, I think, you know, if he keeps ascending, I mean, super crazy projectable, right?
Like we've talked about it like the power is-- w-when the power is actually making contact, it's legit.
Nate: Yeah. There's no one else on the team. Even Walker doesn't project this
ben: Yeah.
Nate: The,
ben: Yeah. Yeah,
Nate: of, uh, launch angle, towering bombs, left-handed bat, you know. It's like it, it could be lineup changing, and it has been in May. You know, he's a part of the reason why the Cardinals continue to win.[00:23:00]
ben: and you know.
Nate: It's fun though.
ben: Yeah, it is a lot of fun. The, it's the idea of like, you know, when you're talking Newt coming back, Gorman actually being a viable, you're talking a pretty deep lineup, um, you know, in between J- all from J-J- JJ to Gorman or however you wanna, uh, frame it. But, um, it's looking better and better.
Nate: Well, let's, uh, talk about, I guess, some things that are not going as well, which is really the, the very bottom part of the lineup. Um, all of our would-be utility players, uh, and our center field. So we've got Scott, Fermin, Pages, and Sajacy have all been pretty rough. Um, you know, it's, it...
I guess I'll say, like, it's a good thing if our eight and nine hitters are the problem. Uh, what team isn't dealing with that to some degree? Um, but [00:24:00] here in a rebuild year, or whatever this year is at this point, you do want to look for solutions there, right? There's, there's no need to keep running out problems.
What are you thinking with this group?
ben: And I wonder, like, I wonder if I'm-- like, because the Cardinals are winning and, you know, are other than Victor Scott, like, is-- how much of the future are you putting on Pages and Sajacy and, you know, even Fermin? You know, I, I don't know. The, the problem is Fermin doesn't have an option, so if you want to move on from him, you're, you're moving on from him.
Everybody else has options. So is it starting-- is it time to be kind of doing this rotation? There's also this nature of like, we talked about this in the past couple of weeks, the Cardinals aren't utilizing their bench as much because so many players have just been playing well. So [00:25:00] why swap them out or replace them defensively or anything like that?
Um, so I don't know if it's like, am, am I being impatient? But I do think it is noticeable but-- that, that those guys have been completely, I, I mean, just useless. Um, they're-- like none of them has, has really gotten hot. Um, obviously Pages has hit a, uh, a couple of homers, which is, is great to see and, and we like his defense generally.
Um, but I, I do wonder, like, if Sajacy is going to-- he's got 16 plate appearances in the month of May right now, uh, and he's got a negative six WRC plus. Um, obviously he's got a little bit of speed and a little bit of defense, so like there's some utility to having a player like that. But if you think Thomas Sajacy is going to be a good player or has value, does it make sense to just kind of not really use him on the Major League roster [00:26:00] or swap him out for somebody else who maybe provides something different, maybe is hot in Triple A right now?
We talked about Brian Torres a little bit last week. Like, does it make sense to do that? Or The vibes are good. Keep, keep these guys where they're at, don't rock the boat, and just keep kinda chugging along until something breaks.
Nate: Yeah, I think is kind of a case-by-case basis. I think we kind of know the plan with Pa Hayes, right? He's-- He-- The vibes are good. He's definitely not gonna lose you a game. He hits a dinger every once in a while. He's serving as a, as a good catcher, his primary responsibility, especially when the rest of the team is hitting so well. Um, he's sort of the consummate, you know, backup catcher role, and the Cardinals have three major, uh, catching prospects in the minors, all at different levels. We're just waiting for the right one to pop up. Uh, was there some sort of bird just pestering you or something? You were, you were looking quite [00:27:00] distracted.
ben: live near a hospital, and there was an emergency helicopter flying over top, and it seemed like he was just circling around above my house, but I think he was going to save a life. Um
Nate: just saw you down there like, "Oh, God, he's in distress." Low- the
ben: I found it inconvenient, um, and now he's coming back. He's coming... Yeah, he is just hovering right above us. So, um, yeah, just a little bit distracted, and I'm sure that's being picked up on the mic a little bit, but we got a little helicopter.
Nate: I'll be sure to update the listeners if you get medevaced randomly here in the middle of the episode. Oh, God, what's wrong with him down there?
ben: That's not very nice. I'm fine.
Nate: Uh,
ben: But
Nate: I think makes sense.
ben: yeah.
Nate: it ki- it kind of is what it... We have two outfielders, one in Newt Bar and another in, in Josh Baez that we predict to possibly be the future of the team, just neither of them are [00:28:00] ready yet, and they're still the dream stays alive with Victor Scott. Um, you know, he's still very young.
Maybe, maybe something clicks at some point. and then, like Fermin and Sijacy, I don't know. I... Like who... Yeah, maybe a Brian Torres or something like that. But seems to me like there's not someone beating down the door for that bench utility role, uh, that they're currently fulfilling. So why impact someone's development at the minor league level to, to replace them?
ben: Yeah. And, and I think that's where I land. But, um, I just wanted to bring it up because they have been-- Obviously most people's bottom of the lineup is not productive, and that's why those players are in the bottom of the lineup. But these guys have been ex- pretty exceptionally bad recently, or unproductive recently.
And, you know, there, there is optionality with all those guys except for Fermin. I think I, I agree though, [00:29:00] Victor Scott, just because of the defensive ceiling that he has. And like how great was it to be, um, you know, have a, a ghost runner on second and that player be Victor Scott? Uh, which ended up not mattering because Ivan Herrera hit a homer, a huge one.
Um, but the Car-
Nate: I,
ben: you...
Nate: surprised they didn't send him on, on Wetherholt's hit in the first place, but it makes sense. Don't wanna make that out at home.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: just, it's Victor Scott. It's like probably he's gonna beat the throw.
ben: Of all players in Major League Baseball, that is the best person to have on second base in extra innings, yeah.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and hey, we've seen, we've seen teams carry just a designated runner. You know, if,
ben: Mm-mm.
Nate: lineup is really good and you aren't actually using the bench a, a- as much as other teams, there is value in, in having one of the fastest players in baseball on your bench. So
ben: Yep.
Nate: that's where Victor Scott ends up landing is this like
ben: Yeah.
Nate: uh, defense speed guy, you
ben: [00:30:00] Yeah.
Nate: not usually what a rebuilding team carries,
ben: Right.
Nate: know, but if we're actually a competitive team, then there's, there's a re- a reason to have that.
ben: Yeah, and that's, you know, that's the, the-- I think we'll have this conversation all year. Like, are we competitive? I don't know. What does, what does Heim Bloom think? Um, you know, at, at what point do you actually push in? When, when does it make sense to be more aggressive? Um,
Nate: Well,
ben: I, I don't know if I have an answer.
Nate: we did get a little insight on that from, uh, an interview with Derek Gould. Um, which we, we can keep this brief as we... I think this will be a constant conversation. But, you know, one thing that Heimblum mentioned is that they do have some potential availability to
ben: Sure. W-
Nate: high dollar contracts. Um, you know, like we
ben: what
Nate: Birds
ben: i-
Nate: m- maybe go get a Sonny Gray. Wouldn't that be
ben: Yeah.
Nate: up trading for, uh, [00:31:00] for Sonny Gray? So, he's clearly thinking about what options would look like, 'cause he said they don't wanna de- trade from their depth. So, that makes sense. That would be a decision that would undercut the entire process they've been going into.
But if they wanna rebuild, or I'm sorry, compete, there's a way to do that with adding veteran players that are too expensive for other teams, and you don't have to give up that much. So, interesting.
ben: It is crazy. It seems like Heim Bloom's superpower is getting the DeWitts to understand how to properly use their money to
Nate: Yeah.
ben: a modern baseball team. And, um, I'm not throwing shade at John Mozeliak, but I-- it makes me really wonder what the conversations were like. And, and like, were there conversations like this, uh, uh, in the last few years?
Um, is Heim Bloom just really convincing? Is his PowerPoint skills, are they better? Um, it's, it's very interesting to me 'cause it seems [00:32:00] obvious from where I'm sitting.
Nate: Well,
ben: But anyways.
Nate: modern j- uh, modern management thinking, and Mozeliak had been doing it for 25 years and
ben: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate: that he had kind of fallen behind, you know? So,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: um, l- let's move on.
ben: Should've called us, man. Should've called us.
Nate: I know. We're right here.
ben: And we're cheap.
Nate: Hambone's about to be medevaced. You better call it quick. Um, uh, let's talk about Matthew Liberatore. Is he breaking out? Is he
ben: I don't know.
Nate: Is he bad? W- we're getting a little bit of everything from him right now. I... You, you put together a little run of stats here. Why don't you run through it real
ben: Yeah.
Nate: set a baseline?
ben: Yeah. Yeah, so for this week, he had two starts. He went nine and two-thirds innings combined. He had 14 K's over that time. He also gave up 16 hits and eight earns r- eight earned runs. [00:33:00] His fielding independent pitching was 2.63. His ERA was 7.45. Massive delta, uh, in between his ERA, his actual stats, and his projected stats.
Um, now what's interesting is he also had a .536 batting average on balls in play over this time, which is almost triple what you would expect, uh, for any pitcher to have at any given time. So i- is it, is it that-- Is he taking a step forward? Because I will say from a stuff perspective, it's looked pretty solid, the, the past even, I would go back as far as a month.
Uh, and the strikeouts are showing you that. I think the, the way that other hitters are reacting are, are showing that Is it the one inning thing? Is he actually not as good as his numbers are suggesting and some of the performance are suggesting? Is it, uh, we used to call it a Linning back in the Lance Lynn early days when he would have a meltdown inning.[00:34:00]
Is it that? Is he losing focus? Like, it, it's hard to-- Like, we, we s- we talk about the idea of, like, progression is never linear for these guys, and this is, like, maybe the biggest ex- Like, in game, he's clearly doing something extra special, striking out a ton of guys, and then the next inning, it's just not happening.
And, and what, what is that that is changing? What is plaguing him? Why is he all of a sudden not the guy that just struck out the side? How, how can that flip-flop like that?
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do think, man, it's hard not to just chalk it all up. If you're, if we're looking at the sample size that we're talking about right now, the last two games,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: where it seemed like everything
ben: Yeah.
Nate: coming together and then all of a sudden it was not, uh, it's really hard to just not put it all into BABIP, you know?
I mean, a .536 BABIP, especially against one of the best defensive teams in baseball, is just [00:35:00] so incredibly unlucky, and the FIP shows that too. 2.6 FIP, you know, which means if you're unfamiliar, he basically, you would expect his ERA would've actually should've been somewhere around two and a half, when in fact it was five and a half.
Like... Or sorry, seven and a half. Like, it, it's just, the, the... It's hard not to lump it all into he just got really, really unlucky in a couple
ben: Right.
Nate: The only reason you would maybe argue against that, 'cause the data's pretty clear that that's just what it is, is that this seems to happen kind of regularly for him, right?
ben: Right.
Nate: into
ben: Right.
Nate: And it all sort of starts to fall apart. So I guess it's, my assumption here is that it's a little bit of both. There's something in his conditioning or whatever. I don't wanna place any, uh, diagnostics on him. I don't, I don't, I don't know his life. Um, but there's something that is preventing him from being [00:36:00] able to pitch the exact same quality that he did at the beginning of the game as he is at the end of the game.
It's been pretty consistent at this point. So I don't know, maybe the Cardinals should take a Rays approach like they had d- like they would do with their pitchers and Blake Snell and stuff like that, where you're like, "You're giving us five elite innings and that's it." Um, uh, I don't wanna put that on him already.
You know, he's a young guy. You'd like to see him be able to go six, seven, eight or whatever. Um, of course not in my ideal pitching setup, but
ben: Oh, we know.
Nate: the
ben: Yeah.
Nate: confines of expectations around starting pitchers, uh, you'd like to see him go six or seven more regularly.
ben: the counterargument The counterargument is how's he gonna learn to go six or seven innings if he doesn't just keep trying to do it and then getting mollywhopped half the time or, or all the time? Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't have a--
Nate: let him keep doing it.
ben: Yeah, I don't have a solution, and I think that's the benefit of the year that [00:37:00] we're having right now.
The young guys, tarps off, let Libby keep pitching, and maybe he figures it out. But I, I will say from a stuff perspective, when his breaking balls are on and, and the fastball was working the way it was in his last start, like I, I am, I am addicted to the upside. Let's just keep trying to get whatever that is.
Nate: we love a curveball, don't we, folks?
ben: Ugh.
Nate: all right, let's talk about, uh, the return of Matt Pus hard. He's back.
ben: Is it Bouchard?
Nate: y- Pushard. I, I just think it's funny to call him Pus hard.
ben: I don't know if we ever actually said that it's, it's actually Bouchard, but it-- I think it's Bouchard too. Yeah.
Nate: think it's Pus hard.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: everyone
ben: It makes more sense. Yeah.
Nate: If you read, if you look at it, gotta
ben: Which I do all the time.
Nate: I'm looking at it right now. [00:38:00] So he's defying your, uh, you know, expectations here, where you would acu- directly accuse the St. Louis Cardinals of, uh, breaking MLB rules to keep him in the minors for an extended me- period of time. Uh, he is here. What are you, what are you s- thinking about, uh, old Pus hard here?
ben: Well, it is very interesting, Nate. I went back and looked at his pitch mix from, uh, last season when he was in Triple A with the Miami Marlins, and he was really leaning on-- It was fastball, curveball, um, was his main combination. He was throwing his curveball, uh, over 25% of the time. Basically completely gotten rid of the curveball, um, throwing it like less than 1% of the time, um, in his little tune-up in Triple A and, and now coming into the big leagues.
Uh, and it looks like he's leaning heavily on a slider-sweeper combo. Um, he's thrown the sweeper before, but it has now basically become, other than his four-seam, become his main pitch. So I think there was a little bit to what I was talking about. When [00:39:00] did this start? You know, when did the Cardinals identify it?
How did all that go down? I don't know. But his pitch mix is different now. We'll see. He's only had one appearance in the bigs so far. We'll see if this sticks around or not, but the Cardinals are making him throw the sweeper. He never threw it before. We'll see if it's any good.
Nate: Yeah. Well, the, the bullpen rotation continues, you know. And this is, this is part of the season. It's been, it's been good. I think there is reason to be optimistic about him. Obviously, the Cardinals went and got him for a reason, and it's always interesting when you see an organization tinker with a pitch mix, you know?
ben: Yeah.
Nate: one of the things that we see across the board is one organization's perspective on what they should be throwing can be very different than someone else, and sometimes that's the missing key. So, and, and thus far we've been pretty confident in, in the Cardinals pitching staff and, or pitching coaching staff and I'm, I'm... I don't know. It's compelling.
ben: I [00:40:00] mean, you look at George Soriano and what he's done, and my God, I know we talked about it last week, but he threw four or five change-ups in last night's game and Tuesday night's game where I'm like, this guy is, I mean, this is Devin Williams level airbender nastiness. And then, you know, of course he's got the 97 on the corner.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: looking really good. He's starting to throw that change-up right on right. Yeah, I kind of like, I have full faith in the Cardinals front office to bring in interesting guys with interesting pitch mixes and make them better. So
Nate: been good at for a while now, even
ben: absolutely.
Nate: season. So, uh, yeah, pretty interesting.
ben: O'Brien was acquired by Mosailok.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: and
Nate: was Fonzen.
ben: yeah. So, and he's, love for Swanson to turn that around, but cool.
Nate: Okay. Well, in a corresponding move, the Cardinals designated Jared Shuster [00:41:00] for assignment, so he continues to ride the taxi. Um, I think we got a, a few injury updates to run through here, uh,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: to the, uh, second half.
ben: I think we can do these quickly. Mason Wynn, obviously out last night's game. Not sure if he's going to play in today's game. We're recording Wednesday afternoon. A little left knee discomfort expected to return at some point this week, hopefully. Nothing I'm too concerned with. Cesar Prieto getting a little start in short, which is interesting.
Would love to see him have a good game. I think that would be a lot of fun. Just like a little three hitter for Prieto would be a lot of fun for me. Nupar has officially started his rehab, which has been great. He's got three games under his belt so far. A couple of hits, a homer and a walk. I think he hit a homer in his first at bat.
Really, I'm really curious how long the Cardinals are going to give him, [00:42:00] especially if he's being successful in his little rehab start, how long it's going to be till he gets back here. And then we're going to have a huge conversation about where does he fit? Obviously, he's going to start. To me, it's pretty clear that he's going to be in left field.
Where does he hit in the lineup? Whose spot does he take? Whose at bats is he taking? What do you do with center field? Is it Nathan Church? Is it you're just going to split the time? I don't know what that looks like, but I'm very excited for that day.
Nate: I, I am too. Uh, we've talked a lot about him and another fundamental change to the lineup he could bring. I think they will likely bring him in slowly, which will aid in this transition, whatever it is. Um, even though he seems to be playing quite well in rehab, I think they'll still... he'll probably start every other day to start or maybe a couple days in a row, then a day off.
I, I just don't imagine he's gonna go into full starter mode
ben: Yeah.
Nate: out of the gates. Um, it's literally [00:43:00] both of his feet. It's,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: thing you keep people off of if they're hurt. So, uh, I... And I think there's no reason to rush him back. They've obviously taken their time with the rehab. Um, you know, the, at least the guys that he would be replacing are, are both stellar defense and, and the rest of the team is hitting well enough that they don't need those guys to crush.
We kinda already talked about that. Um, so why rush it? Let's let him get comfortable, let him get back in, and then hopefully become a new key part of the lineup. I'm thinking, you know, we, we've talked about this a little bit in the Bird Score. Is it time to rethink the, the top of the lineup if Newbar's back and playing well?
Um, you know, it's a good question. Or is he just, uh, another bat to put in front of Gorman and with a high OBP and you let that second part of the lineup all of a sudden be its own run generating, um, you know, situation?
ben: My, my gut kind of tells me I, I think it should be Walker four, Newt, [00:44:00] uh, five, Wynn six, Gorman seven. Um, but maybe you want Gorman higher up in that. Uh, but I, I like the id-
Nate: xWOBA, yeah. You know, you put him four, you
ben: Yeah.
Nate: put Wa- like, uh, I think there's, uh, some good arguments to be made for Walker even going into, like, the two hole, or I know Jake in the Bird Score has lobbied, is it time to do what some of the other, uh, organizations are doing by just putting your best hitter at one and say, "Deal with it.
It's... You gotta get past him to start the game." You know?
ben: Yeah.
Nate: is interesting.
ben: I, I don't hate that idea at all. I, I do like the left, right, left, right, left, right that we are able to-- So I think as long as we're sticking to that, um, I think it makes a lot of sense. I do like the J.J. Wetherholt, Newt bar type hitter at the top. The guy that i- that has a, has traditionally held a super high OBP, grinds people down.
I, [00:45:00] I love that. I'm not going to get mad about Jordan Walker leading off though, especially with like the power speed combo, which is one of the, you know, best in baseball right now. It's-- He can be wherever he wants, and I'm sure we would
Nate: Yeah.
ben: and enjoy that with the way that he's been playing. So yeah, really, really don't.
No strong or, or, uh, uh, held, no strongly held opinions on specifically, as long as we keep the left right thing going.
Nate: Yeah, I'm personally not too precious at all about, um, lineup construction. Um, I think, you know, it, it doesn't have a huge impact. The
ben: No.
Nate: is a- amount of plate appearances that someone gets in a season, um, which I think is also why you have, like, Ohtani bat first. He gets the most amount of plate appearances in a season by batting first, and you
ben: Yeah.
Nate: benefit by having Ohtani have the most amount of plate appearances.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: the data suggests that generally
ben: [00:46:00] Right.
Nate: total plate appearances different than the one next to it. So Ohtani batting first gets him 18 more plate appearances than whoever's batting second, which is not a huge amount when you're talking about 700 plate appearances.
But the difference between sixth and first, or something like that, that can have a pretty big difference. So that's where you start to look at, like, well, Nootbaar, do we want him to get 50 more plate appearances than, JJ or, or Herrera or whoever he would take over by
ben: Yeah.
Nate: the top half?
ben: Yeah. Hopefully.
Nate: all interesting.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: all right. Uh, I wanna hit a couple of minors numbers really quick, and then we can get going or keep moving. Uh, Jimmy Crooks over the past month has a 631 slug, 25% K rate, and a ton of walks. Um, he's a great defender. He's a lefty bat behind. Uh, I think he would pair very nicely with Ivan Herrera.
Um, I'm just gonna keep talking about this. He keeps slugging, and I, [00:47:00] I know there's swing and miss in the game, but 25% with that, uh, K rate with that kind of slug, I think you can play that all day, even if it jumps up in the bigs, um, knowing that he's a good defender, uh, the power that he's showing. Have, have we talked-- He doesn't wear batting gloves, Nate.
There's, I mean,
Nate: We,
ben: many reasons.
Nate: don't we, folks? Yeah. Um,
ben: he, he's mashing it.
Nate: I, I, I think we're-- I think everyone is pretty aligned on we want Jimmy
ben: It's a matter of time, right?
Nate: Yeah, I think probably most Cardinal fans, at least I know for sure you and I are pretty aligned on this, we're, we're ready for Jimmy Crooks to be the starter here, at least in the, in the timeshare with Herrera. Um, clearly the Cardinals want him to have more time to develop and, and make sure those, that that approach is consistent. He was pretty rough at the Major League level in his 50 plate appearances last year, and I'm sure they're thinking, "Let's not rush it. Enough guys have been rushed. Pages is not a problem. [00:48:00] He's not necessarily helping, but he's not a problem right now. Let's just let it, let it ride and, and be 100% confident that Crooks is ready."
ben: Yeah.
Nate: and I get it. You know, I, I would prefer just bring him up, let's get it going, but, um, you know, I guess I'll trust the process with this one.
ben: Yeah. I think it's imminent. It's, it's, it's coming. It'll be here. Um, and maybe it won't work. Who knows? But I'm, I'm very excited. Uh, all right, one last player I wanted to talk about. You remember Nelson Velazquez, Nate? Remember him from spring training?
Nate: The... Well, yeah, we spent like three episodes basically just talking about him and
ben: Yeah.
Nate: poof,
ben: Yeah. He went to Triple A. He had a really, really rough start to the Triple A season. But Nate, uh, since April 25th, he has been crushing in Triple A. He has a 1,076 OPS since April 25th. He has five homers, 11 walks against 14 Ks. He's totally caught fire. Now, I [00:49:00] don't know what we do with this information.
I don't know where you would play him. He is a right-handed bat. We talked about the potential of what that could mean for the Cardinals all spring training. Um, I, I wonder how much success he needs to have down there for the Cardinals to start talking about him coming up. He is technically an outfielder.
Um, he is not a very good outfielder, but
Nate: Yeah.
ben: at Newt, um, Scott, and Church all swinging from the left side, all being outfielders. Do you wanna swap one of those guys out for Nelson Velazquez, or do you just want a right-handed bat on the bench that isn't Pozo?
Um, you know, I, I wonder where Velazquez is in the conversation, and either way, he's dominating right now.
Nate: Yeah, I'd be surprised if the Cardinals decide to carry both Church and Scott [00:50:00] once Newt is, like, fully back up to speed. So that takes one of those guys out. I don't know who and what they do with the other one, but y- you know, that's a conversation for a later day. But that might open the door for another outfield, quote-unquote, outfielder that's right-handed, uh, that you could give him another shot or give him a shot at the majors. it's just hard to predict right now with the roster as is really anyone other than Newt coming up and getting a ton of ABs. But obviously, there's... He's capable of something. It's just, is it capable at the Major League level? It... like to find out. but who, who you, who you taking plate appearances from?
ben: No, and it's, it's, you know, you're not gonna... It doesn't make s- I, I don't like the idea, is what I'm trying to say, of Ivan Herrera being in the outfield as your fourth outfielder or right-handed desperation bat or anything like that. So yeah, I, I don't know.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: it'll be an interesting conversation. I, I think I, I-- if I had to bet [00:51:00] money on it on Kalshi right now,
Nate: Of
ben: I would say Victor Scott is going to be optioned to Triple-A when Newt comes back.
Um, just to, you know, obviously they're working on offensive thing. They're working on things, working on where his hands are
Nate: Yep.
ben: fitting.
Nate: Where
ben: They're, they're trying
Nate: Uh-huh.
ben: out how to get him going, and maybe you do that at Triple-A. May-maybe not, though.
Nate: Uh, quick peek behind the curtain too for our- Video watchers, uh, Hambone has magically transitioned to another location. Still holding his mic in his hand,
ben: Yep.
Nate: uh, but now has a, uh, a, a nice little brick wall behind him,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Yeah. Nice.
ben: Are you not familiar with what bricks are?
Nate: Well, it seems to be some sort of alternating grid of, brownish, reddish with, like, some sort of white thing in between.
ben: Very good bit.
Nate: Thank you. you. [00:52:00] uh, all right, anything else, Hambone, before we move to the second half?
ben: All I got for you, Nate.
Nate: All right. Well, we're going to talk about the upcoming series and a little bit of league news and, of course, play a little game. But before we do that, we wanna remind our listeners that this show is listener supported on patreon.com. Patreon.com/talkingaboutbirds, where you can find all of the different tiers and, and different things we're bringing to you. Uh, subscribers at any of the paid levels get access to early episodes, so they come out usually on Wednesday. So if that fits your schedule better, that might be appealing. Uh, we also have access to the Bird Score.
That's our private Discord server. Uh, it's where we're live watching the games together. We're chatting throughout, at this point, basically every game. There's people in there, um, commenting. It's just been a really fun way to watch the game and talk to other actual, uh, Cardinal fans and not just blasting stuff out into the, uh, void that is most social media. Uh, and a good [00:53:00] resource, too, for staying on top of news, uh, as it breaks. It almost always ends up in the chat first. Um, so check it out, patreon.com/talkingaboutbirds. And if none of that is appealing to you, we, we just-- but you just wanna support the show, it's a great way to do it directly. Um, you could also leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
That helps. As well as telling your friends and family, and making sure to, uh, if you're a first-time listener or a newer listener, make sure you hit that little subscribe button. where else can people find us?
ben: Yeah, you can find us on the social medias. We're on Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok. Uh, if you want to watch this episode and watch my background change a couple of times, you can check us out on YouTube, "Talking About Birds" on YouTube. You can find all of the podcast information, all of that stuff, T-shirts, more, um, at talkingaboutbirds.com.
Of course, you can email us at talkaboutbirds@gmail.com. And as always, you can call us and leave a voicemail or send a text [00:54:00] message, 2848-48-BIRDS. That's 848-482-4737.
Nate: All right. So, the Cardinals will finish up their series against the Pirates, uh, while this episode is being recorded and released. And then they will go to Cincinnati for three games, um You know, the, that ballpark, that team of doesn't matter what or how the Reds are playing. These games are always dramatic.
It's a small ballpark, lots of home runs. The Reds have been on quite a skid
ben: Yeah.
Nate: month, as their pitching has dealt with injuries and the high variance outcome of their lineup has swung, you know, down in the direction of, of more strikeouts. Um, but they're still quite a dangerous team. Um, I think notably Elly De La Cruz is having an incredible season. [00:55:00] Um, he seems to be doing everything right now. And recently they called up J.J. Bleday, who was not at all on our radar as a, uh, as a, as a Red coming into the season. Called him up in late April, and he's been one of their best hitters. Uh, and especially in a ballpark like this and the pitching staff that we have, uh, I'm, I'm, you know, a little worried that these are gonna be some, uh, nine to eight games, some, uh, you know, 12 to seven type affairs, which can be fun.
But hopefully we have the firepower to, uh, to, to be on that higher end.
ben: Yeah, I feel pretty good about the Cardinals, like you s-- uh, coming into this, uh, uh, um, series. The Cardinals, um, are playing well, and like you said, the Reds have been skidding as of late. And we're gonna draw what I think is, is a pretty good-- Well, the fact that we're not having to face Chase Burns i-is really good,
Nate: Yeah.
ben: their bullpen has just been god-awful.
Like, I, I [00:56:00] agree with everything you said. Matt McClain, m- a name that you didn't say that's been playing pretty well. Um, but the Cardinals are gonna draw Chris Paddock, who w- started the season with the Marlins. The Marlins dropped him, and then the Reds picked him up just as like a life preserver. It's gonna be him on Friday against Kyle Leahy.
Saturday, we got your favorite p-pitcher, Brady Singer, uh, against Andre Pallante, my favorite pitcher. Um, and then the Sunday game is Nick Lodolo and Matthew Liberatore, two high variance lefty pitchers
Nate: Yeah.
ben: who are probably good, maybe good. They, they can be good. Um, but I like the Cardinals mostly because, like I said, that bullpen has just been atrocious for a while now, and that's really led to their skid, not to mention the, the pitching health and everything that they're dealing with right now.
Uh, Eugenio Suarez is currently injured, um Uh, Hunter Green has been down all year. Rhett Lowder, who was a fairly promising [00:57:00] starting pitcher for them, has gone down. Um, and one other player I wanna call out, and that's just 'cause the Cardinals-- I don't believe we've seen him yet, but Sal Stewart is having a pretty nice start to the year, and I think is, uh, pretty legit and is gonna be one of those guys that we're gonna have to watch for a while.
Um, but yeah, they, they have some high highs on the offensive side. Um, but all of those guys, including Elie Dela Cruz, they're, they're young and, and untested and very wildly, you know, and...
Nate: rotation is really gonna take advantage of their, uh, strikeout prone approach, is that right?
ben: I, I'm more meaning that consistency is hard to find. Um, and you know, the Cardinals have been on the lucky side of that so far, but we'll see. I feel pretty good about going, mostly because of where the Reds have been for the past 20 games more than anything.
Nate: Yeah. They are the only team in the NL Central with a negative run differential. They are negative 33.[00:58:00]
ben: Yeah.
Nate: the Cardinals are plus six, for
ben: Hey.
Nate: you know, positive. so yeah, should be a team that they can take advantage of. I am a pretty big fan of Nick Lodolo, but you said he is inconsistent.
He's still coming back from injury. Maybe they can get to him before he gets really into form. Um, I suspect this team will bounce back at some point and swing back in the other
ben: Yeah.
Nate: over 500, hopefully not after this upcoming series. but they can beat anyone if, uh, Ellie, and Sal, and Blidet, and McClain... Like, lineup is good. So I, I, I suspect this is going to be high s- high scoring affairs. Um, but I also would take the Cardinals, uh, going in on this series.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Um, after
ben: Yeah.
Nate: our run through the NL Central, and the Cardinals will go against the first place Milwaukee Brewers.
As it stands right now before the two Pirate games, the [00:59:00] Cardinals are a half game back of the Milwaukee Brewers.
ben: Yeah,
Nate: if it stays around there, a good series in Milwaukee could have the Cardinals ending, uh, uh, next week, or at least our coverage period next week, uh, in first place nearing the end of May, which would be fun. the Brewers, uh, when we talk about run differential, they have one of the best in, in baseball with plus 70, uh, and they're a, a pretty good team. Um, Jackson Churio is back and seemingly, what we always expect him to be, um, so that'll be a thing to deal with. But what are we gonna see from the, uh, the pitching match-ups?
ben: Monday night is gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, we have Jakub Mierzewski, The Miz
Nate: Yep.
ben: is very good. Um, I th- believe he set a record for fastest or hardest fastball, uh, by a starting pitcher ever thrown, at least in pitch tracking era, uh, a [01:00:00] week or so ago against, uh, maybe the opposite pitcher in, uh, Michael McGreevy.
Um, so that should be an interesting, uh, matchup. But I, I think Mizerowski is, and, uh, this is not a bold take or anything like that, but he is amazing. He is a, a freak of nature. Um, hopefully he goes five and the Cardinals can get to their bullpen. Their bullpen's pretty good too. So,
Nate: Yeah.
ben: we'll see what happens there.
Uh, game two Tuesday night is, uh, former top prospect Kyle Harrison and recent Milwaukee Brewers rehab project, who's been pitching pretty well against Dustin May. Uh, that's Tuesday night, and then Wednesday we got Logan Henderson against Kyle Leahy. Um, I don't really know much about Logan Henderson, if I'm totally honest with you.
Nate: He
ben: guy. Yeah.
Nate: Young
ben: Yeah.
Nate: He should be good. Yet another... I mean, this is just, this weekend is, or this series is a great example of what the Brewers do well. They've got Mierzowski, Harrison, and Henderson. I think [01:01:00] right now, all three of them would be, uh, maybe the Cardinals' best pitcher.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: uh, yeah,
ben: th-
Nate: tough.
ben: this team, they're 30th in MLB with home runs. They, they have no power, but they get on base, uh, they steal bases, and they strike you out like crazy. And, and that's how they've done what they've done. They manufacture runs, and they strike out everybody all up and down their bullpen, all up and down their, uh, rotation.
Um, they're, they're a very good team. They do it in an annoying way that is-- it's, it's, you know, it's, it's not a traditional offense, uh, or at least a modern offense, but it is effective and they are good at baseball.
Nate: Yeah, and some of those numbers too, like l- lower home runs, Yelich was out for a while. He can get behind one. Jackson
ben: Yep.
Nate: can hit them. He's been out for the whole season. William Contreras, who can hit them, only has four. So it's like a bunch of guys that should end the season with 20 to 25 or so,
ben: Yeah.[01:02:00]
Nate: are currently at like to four, you know?
ben: Yeah. A-Andrew Vaughn is healthy now.
Nate: Vaughn, yeah. You know, you expect that to normalize at some point, just hopefully not this upcoming series against the Cardinals. All right, Hambone. Um, let's move into a little bit of league news, but actually be- before we get to what you've prepared, um, a little peek behind the curtain. This has been a bit of a, a disjointed episode between dealing with Ben's giant hole and some things that I've had to do. Uh, we've had to start and stop a little bit, and in between the Ben didn't like that. Uh, the, the la- the, uh, series segment and now, it's been announced that Busch Stadium is locking in the tarps off atmosphere, and they are officially designating the upper right field bleachers as a high energy area. Uh, and that any fan may go [01:03:00] and, um, be there at any time during the game. Um, which I think is great. I
that's, uh, certainly a good way, I think, to, uh, seal the deal and, and allow for anyone to
ben: I
Nate: and keep it going. and you know, it reminds me, you're gonna hate this, um,
ben: already know what you're gonna say. I already know what you're gonna say. Footy.
Nate: it's, uh, it's been a standard thing at soccer for a very long time. It's called the supporter section, and it's a f- key feature of live soccer, live football, and it, it makes the games more fun. Football, soccer, it's a little more, know, conducive to this sort of thing, of people screaming the entire time and whatnot. Um, but I think it's interesting, and I wonder if it's, uh, the start of something like that becoming more popular in the United States for baseball as this is pretty normal in the rest of the world, of people g- hooting and
ben: Yeah.
Nate: an entire
baseball game
ben: I kinda disagree with you. I, I think that baseball lends itself very well to this type [01:04:00] of thing. You have-- There's, you know, action every 15-ish seconds. There's something to cheer for or hiss at essentially on that cadence. Um, you know, go out there and get fired up.
Nate: actually, I, agree, I agree totally with what you're saying. Um, I guess what I mean is that the traditional view on attending a baseball game is more like, you know, it's a, it is a quieter, it's a
ben: Yes.
Nate: game, you know? And, and when the, your team is pitching, like don't be too obnoxious and stuff like that, you know?
ben: But there is absolutely room for both of these to exist, I think. Yeah.
Nate: I agree. And I think, like, generally the stadium's probably big enough that, like,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: with all of that, just sit on the other side and I
think it'll
ben: yeah.
Nate: in, in football, if you're-- in soccer, if you're siti- if you're sitting on the other side of the supporters section, it's like a, a low hum, you know,
ben: Right
Nate: the whole time. Uh, I'm curious, are they gonna [01:05:00] let, start letting people bring in, you know, drums and horns and stuff like That, that uh, that happens in soccer? Uh,
ben: that happens in the Dominica and Summer League and stuff, or,
Nate: exactly, vuvuzelas and all that, you
ben: yeah.
Nate: um, I, I don't know. Maybe. Um, but I'm, I'm excited about it. We've said it a ton of times on this episode.
I think it's great. I'm, I'm really hopeful that this creates a consistently more vibrant experience at the ballpark than what we've seen for a long time.
ben: Yeah. A- and I wanna just say, like, I don't know if it's just my, uh, my level of pessimism or if the world has worn me down to believing this, but the fact that, like, s- people are having fun and an organization is reacting positively to it quickly, they, they've adjusted, you know, very quickly to d- do something that the fans want in the span of, like, a handful of days is kind of awesome.
So, um, I, I, I think it's [01:06:00] all of it is great. Love it. Super fan of it. Won't be sitting out there myself,
Nate: Yeah, I
ben: as I said previously.
Nate: uh, yeah, not actually for me, uh, but also very into it, you
ben: Absolutely. Yeah. And you know what? I could, I could see, uh, Binny has one too many, uh, Dr. Peppers and he's, he wants to go take his tarp off and, and hang out with the youngsters. Um, either way, I, I think it's great.
Nate: Yeah. I mean, I, there's definitely, you said it before, but of, of the people that I know, I, I do put you pretty high up on the list of people that I think would end up in the tarps off section
ben: Yeah. Uh, let's be honest though, Nate, those guys are gonna bully us, okay? They're gonna, they're gonna give us wedgies. They're gonna give us noogies. They're gonna take our lunch money.
Nate: Now
ben: I know where we stand in the, in in the pecking order.
Nate: Yeah. All right, let's, uh, let's, let's get through some, uh, some other league news
ben: Uh, [01:07:00] yeah, not too much to talk about, but, uh, something that's kind of fun. The Mariners have promoted their extended super prospect, Colt Emerson. Unfortunately, this timed out with Brendan Donovan going down on the IL. It seems like he's not going down for too long, but sad to see a former Cardinal, who by the way, is just having, like, a really great season over there, uh, at least
Nate: he's
ben: when he's been healthy.
Nate: yeah
ben: Uh, but he's been playing really well. Uh, but i- i- in more exciting news, yeah, Colt Emerson gets called up for the Mariners. My assumption is that he's called up there Uh, for the foreseeable future. Obviously he already has that deal with the Mariners.
Nate: Yeah
ben: of course, his first Major League hit, uh, was a home run late in the game the night that he came up.
Um, and I thought that was pretty exciting. But another 20-year-old, Nate, in MLB this year. Or I feel like we've gotta be getting close to a [01:08:00] record, or it just feels like we have a lot of babies in the league right now.
Nate: They're taking their tops off in the stands and they're hitting dingers in clutch moments. Um, yeah. It's, uh... I don't know. I wonder. There, there's probably in, like, 1893, the entire league died in A bus fire. and so they were filled with, like, 17-year-olds for a week or something really silly and, and that record'll never be broken.
ben: A bus
Nate: yeah.
ben: fire.
Nate: S-
ben: All right. All right.
Nate: way for entire teams to be wiped out in the late 1800s. Uh, all of their buses they had back then.
ben: Okay. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Everything you're saying, I have no, no argument.
Nate: Thank you. So let's move on to the next one
ben: Um, ha- how to move on? I don't, I don't even know what to do. Um, all right, uh, I... Sorry, I was just trying to look it up. There [01:09:00] are seven players in, seven, uh, uh, position players in MLB that are 21 years or younger right now.
Nate: Wow
ben: and Didier Fuentes of the Atlanta Braves is the only pitcher that is 21 or lower in MLB.
All right. Uh, P. Crow Armstrong, PCA superstar, everyone loves him. He goes to the South Side, uh, and gets into an argument after running full speed into the center field wall with a White Sox fan wearing a sport dress. Uh, which I don't know if you saw that video, but I found it very entertaining. Um, PCA getting all mad.
He has been fined an undisclosed amount of money, uh, stemming from that inci- uh, incident. He did not get f- uh, uh, suspended, which I did think he was going to get suspended. Um, but he comes out, apologizes, says that he doesn't wanna talk to anybody that way, um, let alone a fan. Um, but a, uh, [01:10:00] funny little incident.
I d- I do-- There is something to me very funny about a Cub going to the South Side and totally losing their cool, just playing into what they think about you, PCA. It's, it's, it's just too good.
Nate: I, I remember last year when he forgot how many outs there were and, and that whole thing too. He's a strange guy. Um, been playing pretty well again, but, uh, strange guy
ben: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, talented- Maybe odd player.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, anyways, uh, all right. I thought it'd be fun to catch up on those two manager firings that we talked about a few weeks ago. Um, and I think it's pretty funny how they've worked out. Uh, the Philadelphia Phillies are 16 and 5 since they, uh, got rid of Rob Thompson and Don Mattingly took over.
So great move, amazing move. I can't believe Don Mattingly obviously pushing all the right buttons.
Nate: Yep. Came in, the team was broken, and he was the glue, or [01:11:00] He-
is the glue.
ben: He-
Nate: not just a very good team reverting back to the mean after a rough start of 28 games or whatever.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: No, it's probably, it's gotta be Mattingly, and the other guy was shit
ben: Y- yeah, I think Rob Thompson was telling Schwarber not to hit 20 home runs, and Don Mattingly told him to hit 20 home runs.
Nate: Bryce Harper, you stop playing well. That's
ben: Yeah.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, you know, what, uh, something else funny about the Phillies is, I don't know if you remember this, but Dombrowski said in the off-season that Bryce Harper is not elite anymore, and Bryce Harper obviously took that and it really hurt his feelings.
Nate: Wah.
ben: And he's having a really good season. I,
Nate: year.
ben: he's having a pretty good, like back... I don't know if he's back to his MVP levels. I, I think that time...
Nate: though? I mean, you know,
ben: I don't know.
Nate: but it's a funny thing to say.
ben: Pretty good.
Nate: Yeah.
ben: and then, uh, for the, uh, Red Sox, obviously, uh, they let go of Alex Cora on April [01:12:00] 26, and since then they are 11 and 10. Uh, so it goes without saying, obviously a terrible move.
Um, they, they don't know what they're doing over there. It's a total calamity. Why would you get rid of Cora? Um, what a terribly constructed team.
Nate: I can't wait for the Cardinals to acquire Sonny Gray in some sort of salary dump deal for one of our low minors, uh, pitching prospects
ben: I, it would be the funniest possible outcome for this season.
Nate: it really would.
ben: I mean, the betting odds alone would be insane. Sonny Gray's starting to have a, he's starting to turn his season around. Yeah.
Nate: They'll be like, "Can we have Yoiker back?" And we'll be like, "Nope.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: we'll get..." Yeah.
ben: We'll give you Blaze.
Nate: Yeah, you can have Blaze.
ben: Uh, all right. Uh, that's all the league news I got for you this week, Nathan.
Nate: All right, Hambone. So, um, Cardinals are more powerful than we expected them to be this year. They're, uh, hitting far more home runs and just overall hitting [01:13:00] the ball harder than we expected, and that's leading to more home run trots.
ben: Wow.
Nate: enjoyed, uh, Jordan Walker's little, uh, pay me thing every
ben: It's
Nate: a home run.
We
ben: very good.
Nate: we saw Ivan Herrera, uh, in his walk-off last night pointing to the tarps off crowd doing the thing, you know? So, uh, we're seeing a lot of home run trots. Well, I found in, uh, in Statcast, those things are actually measured.
ben: Oh.
Nate: that we are tracking run trots?
ben: I, I did know this, and that's only because when, like, the really long ones, the really,
Nate: Yeah
ben: ones make it around baseball internet every once in a while, and I appreciate that.
Nate: Totally. Uh, you know what else trots? A horse. So today we're playing another episode
ben: Oh my God.
Nate: Get On Your Horse Edition.
ben: Um,
Nate: Uh,
ben: wow.
Nate: have, what I, have here, [01:14:00] Hambone, is a list of the starting lineup, like the, the main players in the, on the team this year,
ben: I, I can understand what a starting lineup is, yeah.
Nate: Uh, well, I should say starting lineup is maybe not ex- ex- I'll, I'll show you the list. So, uh, uh, the people who've played the most this year,
ben: Yeah.
Nate: average home run trot is.
ben: Okay.
Nate: this is career.
ben: Okay.
Nate: I have them ranked, uh, one through nine. I wanna see if you can guess of the top three, um, as far as
ben: Yeah.
Nate: trot, fastest
ben: Yeah. Did you see James Wood hit a inside the park grand slam yesterday, and I think it was 15 seconds around the bases?
Nate: It's, he's in- he's good.
ben: It's pretty good. Pretty, pretty good.
Nate: you know, these are [01:15:00] trots.
ben: Okay.
Nate: no one is, no one is doing a, uh, no one's number is 15 seconds.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: the top to the bottom, the gap here is five seconds, so these are pretty close.
ben: Mm-hmm.
Nate: but there are, there are some stark, there are some differences.
So
ben: Okay.
Nate: has, uh, the fastest home run trot?
ben: Who do I think has the f- I mean, it seems really easy to just pick the fastest guy on the team and say Victor Scott, but I'm guessing he's not-- Even slow for him is probably faster than most people. Um, but who's-- It's-- I feel like it's more of like a, it's more of a blue collar thing to, uh, "I'm just gonna put my head down and run around these bases."
Who's our blue c- I don't know. We don't really have anyone that fits that. Um, JJ's new. He's pretty fast and probably doesn't wanna showboat. I'm gonna go JJ Wetherholt is the fastest [01:16:00] trotter of the group.
Nate: Ham Bone, you got it in one. He
ben: Booyah.
Nate: trot 20 sec- 20.78 seconds.
ben: Yeah, it's not about him, you know? He's just trying to get around those bases.
Nate: And he's, he's markedly faster on that than anyone else. I think it is what you're saying too. He's like, "Just get it done."
ben: Yeah.
Nate: All right. So you got the first overall. Who do you think
ben: Oh yeah, next.
Nate: Yeah
ben: Um, I don't know. This is really it's, it's... I was, like, trying to...
Nate: truly, you
ben: Yeah, I was, like, faking my psychological breakdown of why I thought
Nate: right
ben: I did.
Nate: the mindset, you know? So to-- I will be clear here, these, this next grouping, they're all within like fractions of a second of each other. Um, but you know, it's interesting.
ben: I, I think I'm gonna go... I don't think that... No, this is not interesting. Um, I'm gonna go with Jordan Walker, and it's gonna be based [01:17:00] purely on stride length. He's just, his stride is twice of everybody else's. So g- give me J-Walk.
Nate: Jordan Walker is fourth fastest,
ben: Okay. All right.
Nate: just outside the top three,
ben: Okay.
Nate: 23 minutes... Oh, 23 minutes. Imagine.
ben: Be quite the...
Nate: 23.44 seconds
ben: All right. Um, give me... I, I feel like Ivan, even though he's not a fast runner generally, I feel like he kinda puts his head down and... I mean, last night I feel like he got around those bases pretty quick, but that was just 'cause he was so excited. Um, give me Ivan Herrera.
Nate: Incorrect, Hambone. He was, is actually the slowest at 25 sec- 25.57 seconds
ben: Respect. That makes me like him more.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. So there's a, a, a more.
than five-second difference from top to bottom
ben: Yeah.
Nate: and Herrera
ben: Okay. [01:18:00] Um, makes me wanna go with somebody who maybe just doesn't hit them as often, and therefore they, they, uh, you know, "I, I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be on these bases. I'm gonna run around quickly." Um, I don't know what I'm doing here. I'm just fully guessing. Uh, give me Pedro Pages.
Nate: Pages now is the third slowest at 24.37
ben: Yeah.
Nate: All right, I'm gonna give you the rest of the list here. '
ben: Cause speed can't be an actual factor in this because they're all... Yeah. Anyways, go.
Nate: they're jogging bases.
ben: Yeah.
Nate: so from slowest to fastest, we've got Ivan Herrera, Victor Scott, Pedro Pages, Alec Burleson, Mason Wynn, Jordan Walker, Nathan Church, Nolan Gorman,
ben: Wow.
Nate: Wetherholt
ben: Gorman. He's basically at full speed going around the bases on his jog. Um, yeah, man, I, I really can't, um, express how useless of a stat or a [01:19:00] conversation this was, but we, we know more now than we did previously.
Nate: Just keep an eye on it. Something to keep an eye on, you
ben: Is it? Is it though?
Nate: Just a little something, you know, a little thing to know about. Uh, and now you know it. So
ben: so stupid.
Nate: that, we can wrap up this episode.
ben: And now that you know that,
Nate: yep.
ben: that's
Nate: conversation we've
ben: podcast, right?
Nate: and now you know that. Uh, this is the best conversation we've had about horses in the last two weeks. Uh, and
ben: Ugh.
Nate: do it for this week's episode. Thank you everyone for listening. As always, please remember to check out the links to everything at talkingaboutbirds.com, and of course, checking out the Patreon at patreon.com/talkingaboutbirds. Thank you to the patrons. Uh, we truly appreciate it. And if you're considering joining it, now is a great time.
Get in the Bird scored. Um, we'll be back next week after these inner division
ben: Go
Nate: We'll see, maybe, [01:20:00] maybe Hambone, next week we'll be talking about your first place St. Louis Cardinals.
I don't know. I'll be at the game tonight, tarp firmly on, but I am looking forward to it. First game of the year. Uh, and until next week, go Cardinals.
ben: Cardinals.
[01:21:00]