So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

“To me, equity is the ability for everybody to make the same mistakes with the same level of understanding.” - Valérie Cambronne

What if intellectual property education wasn’t reserved for corporations, elite institutions, or people who already knew how the system worked?

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey sit down with Valérie Cambronne, IP attorney, founder of LegallyBlack, and someone deeply committed to closing the IP literacy gap in underrepresented communities.

What started as a conversation between two law school friends after hearing about young artists being exploited in the music industry, eventually became a nationwide nonprofit teaching students how to protect what they create. From candy-themed trademark workshops with high school students, to partnerships with Harvard University, MIT, Howard University School of Law, and the American Bar Association, Valérie is helping reshape who gets access to intellectual property education and why it matters.

You’ll hear about:
  • How one podcast episode about music exploitation inspired the formation of LegallyBlack
  • Why Valérie believes IP literacy should be treated and taught like financial literacy
  • Why so many creators and founders underestimate protecting their IP
  • The difference between obstacles and resistance, and why that mindset changed everything
  • Building a nonprofit while practicing law full-time
  • How LegallyBlack grew through relationships, word-of-mouth, and momentum
  • Why IP matters for creators, influencers, startups, and students
  • The surprising intersection between Valérie’s nonprofit work and private practice
  • Why business development is a long-term investment
  • The vision for LegallyBlack chapters across the country (and eventually globally!)

About Valérie Cambronne: 

Valérie Cambronne is an IP attorney and the Founder & Executive Director of LegallyBlack, a nonprofit organization dedicated to increasing IP literacy in underrepresented communities. Since launching in 2020, LegallyBlack has delivered free educational workshops across multiple states, reaching students through partnerships with schools, universities, and legal organizations nationwide.

Valérie also runs her own IP practice, where she focuses on trademark counseling, brand protection, and helping creators and entrepreneurs understand the “why” behind intellectual property strategy.

Learn More:

This episode is brought to you by: Vista Consulting

Vista Consulting helps law firms navigate the rapidly shifting landscape of private equity and MSO-driven transactions. They serve as strategic advisors to firms preparing for acquisition, merger, or partnership, strengthening operations, aligning leadership, and pressure-testing financial performance. Their hands-on experience ensures firms enter the market organized, confident, and positioned to maximize value when it matters most for long-term success ahead. For more information, check out their Law Firm Owner’s Guide to PE Readiness here or explore Vista Consulting’s M&A advisory services for law firms considering a sale.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Valérie Cambronne: I like to think of business like Sephora. Everyone's selling the same thing, but there's a reason I want to go to another brand to get foundation versus this other brand. So I think people need to think not just about what I'm trying to protect, but if I'm doing something that already exists, what's the contribution that I'm doing that's different? Why, why would people choose my brand over someone else's?
[00:00:25] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much to Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work, life, and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we want to know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started.
[00:00:41] Jennifer Ramsey: Today's guest is an intellectual property attorney and the founder and executive director of LegallyBlack, a non-profit she co-founded in 2020 to close the IP literacy gap in underrepresented communities.
[00:00:55] What started as a vision has grown into nationwide impact. We are welcoming Valérie Cambronne today. She has led a team of eight to deliver free workshops across eight states, reaching more than 1,000 students and building institutional partnerships with Harvard, MIT, Howard University School of Law, USC, and the American Bar Association.
[00:01:19] Valérie is on a mission to make IP a fixture in STEM and arts education because she believes the next generation of creators deserves to enter the economy knowing how to own what they build. Welcome, Valérie Cambronne. We are so happy to have you.
[00:01:36] Valérie Cambronne: Thanks for having me.
[00:01:37] Megan Senese: Yeah. Tell us, tell us all the things.
[00:01:39] So I know you, you just became an official, official 501[c] designation, right?
[00:01:44] Valérie Cambronne: Yes, back in September.
[00:01:45] Jennifer Ramsey: Congratulations.
[00:01:46] Valérie Cambronne: Thank you. We actually worked with a clinic at the law school I went to, helped us to do it. Oh. So it was ... We had a bunch of student attorneys working on it, so I think it was a great experience for them to learn about the process as well.
[00:01:56] But yeah, we were fortunate. So, uh, the name of the 501[c][3] is LegallyBlack. Um, our mission is to educate and empower underrepresented communities on the value of intellectual property law. Uh, it is co-founded by myself, Valérie, and my co-founder Kiara Ortiz, who's also my best friend from law school.
[00:02:13] Jennifer Ramsey: I love that.
[00:02:13] I was looking at the, um, your website and the video that you both made.
[00:02:18] Valérie Cambronne: Oh, yeah.
[00:02:19] Jennifer Ramsey: And I think it was for your five-year anniversary, which would've been last year, last January.
[00:02:26] Valérie Cambronne: Yes, last January.
[00:02:27] Jennifer Ramsey: And it was so ... I thought it was so cute the way you two started out. You're like, "We have very diff- different personalities."
[00:02:33] Which makes me think of me and Megan.
[00:02:34] Mm-hmm.
[00:02:36] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. So te- so tell us, like, tell us, um, about, about her and how you two hatched this idea to come up with LegallyBlack. And we just wanna hear more about it because it's ... You have an interesting focus too, focusing on students and kids rather than adults.
[00:02:56] And so I'd lo- we'd love to hear more about that.
[00:02:59] Valérie Cambronne: So she and I met in our Intro to IP class, which was the first elective class you could take your second semester of 1L. And I actually approached her about being friends. So I'm, like, a really part- I'm generally a particular person.
[00:03:12] Megan Senese: You're
[00:03:12] Valérie Cambronne: like- And I let my friend-
[00:03:12] "Do you wanna be my
[00:03:13] Megan Senese: friend?"
[00:03:13] Valérie Cambronne: No, I didn't say, "Do you wanna be my friend?" I said, "Do you wanna hang out more often?" And she said, "Okay." And she was, like, kind of, like- ... weirded out by it. But now we're inseparable, so I'm hap- I'm happy I made my pitch. So funny. But we ended up taking almost every IP class my school offered after that, um, together, so, like, trademark law and music licensing and, um, inter- international trademark law.
[00:03:34] Then we were both Dean Fellows for PIJIP, which is a Program on Information Justice and Intellectual Property at American University. So we were really just part of the IP program deeply at the school. And the summer before 3L, I was interning at a firm, and I was listening to this podcast. It's called The Nod, and it's not on anymore.
[00:03:53] It was from Gimlet Media, but they used to do episodes in, like, niche Black culture topics, and one of the topics was about this song called "Now Keisha Buck" from this group called Crime Mob, which is this super popular song that came out in 2007. And I remember listening, 'cause I was doing doc reviews. I was bored.
[00:04:10] I was listening to pod- I was listening to a podcast. And they're saying that, you know, these were young kids when they made this song, like 14, 15 years old, and they got a $1,000 advance each and essentially don't really make a whole lot off the song today. It has over 97 million streams on Spotify today, and I just...
[00:04:28] I remember thinking, "In 2019, I heard this song in college all the time. It came out when I was in fifth grade, so how, how is it that this is the case?" But it's a common story in, in the Black community with threads of exploitation and, you know, people not owning their masters, specifically in the music industry.
[00:04:46] And, um, I thought, "Okay, I know how this happens. I took entertainment law. I took copyright law. I, I understand what the contract should've looked like." And I told, I told Kiara about it, and I was like, "We ought to do something." She's like, "We should start a podcast." And I was like, "Uh, okay." We nixed that very quickly.
[00:05:05] We're like, "We're not doing, we're not doing a podcast." But fast-forward to Valentine's Day 2020. We had our very first LegallyBlack workshop at this STEM conference that was happening in DC. They brought in 100 high school students from schools in Maryland, and we worked with a patent attorney, 'cause at the time we're still law students.
[00:05:21] So we worked with this patent attorney, and we did a design-your-own candy, candy-based workshop. And we explained, you know, what the trademark was for Hershey's, showed them the trade dress rep- re- registration for the Hershey's Kiss, uh, showed them a video of them, like, making the actual chocolate. And at the end, the kids got to design their own activity and then identify the protectable elements of the candy.
[00:05:42] And that was how LegallyBlack was born.
[00:05:44] Jennifer Ramsey: And then the rest is, is her-story. Yeah.
[00:05:48] Megan Senese: How, how did you go from... And also, I wanna make sure that we're, we are calling out that all of these workshops for the students are, are free, right?
[00:05:58] Valérie Cambronne: Yes.
[00:05:59] Megan Senese: Which is a, I feel like is an amazing feat that you're, like, giving all of this time and your knowledge and your insight into the communities, right, into the students.
[00:06:07] And so how did you go from, well, first of all, your first workshop is 100 people, which is amazing, right? So how did you go from, like, the first one to, like, what happened after that?
[00:06:17] Valérie Cambronne: So March 2020 happened.
[00:06:19] Megan Senese: Oh.
[00:06:19] Jennifer Ramsey: Which is- Right, right.
[00:06:20] Valérie Cambronne: COVID, yes. Also the-
[00:06:22] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, that little blip.
[00:06:23] Valérie Cambronne: Same semester we were graduating law school as well- Uh-huh
[00:06:26] so it was really a wild time. The Bar got- Yes ... pushed back three times. We were like, "What are we gonna do? We just got all this momentum from this great workshop." We started this initiative. At this, at this time it's an init- initiative, right? It's not an organization yet. We hadn't put, you know, any of the founding documents together.
[00:06:41] And we were like, "Okay. Well, maybe we can do virtual workshops." And, or later that year, we ended up getting approached by Nicole Martin, who's another team member, who was getting her LLM at American NIP at the time, and she was, she was in LA. And she's like, "I wanna help out. I wanna work on this with you guys," we thought, which we thought was great.
[00:06:58] And then we were able to start doing virtual workshops after that. Coincidentally, the three of us all had a lot of teachers in our network. So I was just talking to some of my teacher friends like, "Hey, we wanna start g- giving these kind of workshops. Can we come to your class?" And they said, "Sure, yeah.
[00:07:11] Whenever you want." Teachers, you know, they're very rarely gonna say no to professionals coming in to talk to students. So we were able to really grow to a virtual model after that, and then in 2022 when things reopened, we were able to go back to in-person workshops.
[00:07:25] Jennifer Ramsey: How much of your time does it take to Run this nonprofit, and because you're a practicing lawyer too, so you're a busy lady.
[00:07:34] Valérie Cambronne: I am a busy lady. Um, I've kind of transitioned out of working for a firm traditionally, though, and did start my own practice. So I've been doing that now, which has been really great. But, um, so it's, I guess, full-time practice, full-time executive director. Kiara did recently start a position at a large law firm, so she's very busy.
[00:07:52] She contributes the best that she can in the season that she's in, but given our friendship, it's very easy to be fluid about that. And we're also really different thinkers, right? I'm, I'm definitely more of the strategy person, and Kiara is very the detail-oriented, like, let's, you know, tighten this up and all that.
[00:08:06] So we work well together in that sense. It does take a lot of work. When I was working at a larger firm, it was weekends and early mornings and keeping track of your email. Thankfully, I'm extremely organized person, so I can be on it, but it's a ton of work.
[00:08:22] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. I- I'm always curious, what drew you to intellectual property law when you were in law school?
[00:08:30] Valérie Cambronne: Yeah, so before law school I was a ballet dancer for 13 years. Okay. And I really loved ballet. I loved being in the arts, being with other creatives. And when I got to law school, there was this trademark resources talk the first semester. They had three panelists, and a trademark examiner, a partner at a large law firm, and then in-house at Mattel.
[00:08:51] And they were all talking about their cool creative backgrounds. Like, one was in a band, one was a theater kid, and I was like, "Oh, maybe IP is where the creative people go." And then there's also this belief, I think a lot of IP attorneys will say this, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I wanted to represent other creatives" and stuff like that.
[00:09:04] And maybe I'm doing that a lot more now in my personal practice, but certainly in practicing IP at a large firm, you're mostly representing corporations, so. But that's what attracted me to it, and I stuck with it, and I thought, and still think, it is the coolest, coolest area of law.
[00:09:18] Megan Senese: So tell us a little bit about, like, what's the intersection between...
[00:09:21] Is there an intersection between your nonprofit and your new firm?
[00:09:24] Valérie Cambronne: Yeah, there definitely has been an intersection in a really cool way, um, especially with college students in particular, 'cause they all go on to graduate. And so a few of them have come back like, "Hey, Valérie, I have questions. I wanna do this, I wanna do that."
[00:09:35] They're starting their own, you know, startups now, and corporation stuff, so it's great to have, um, you know, earn their trust d- talking about this for, in the workshops setting, and then being able to talk to them, um, later on, you know, and helping support their initiatives. I think it's cool. We've been doing a lot of work with influencers in particular.
[00:09:52] It's a cool space to be in now, representing influencers. It's fascinating how much they don't know, and it's fascinating how, how much the talent agencies are not talking to them about certain things. So there's a great opportunity for IP attorneys to be really, you know, good counsel for them. And for me, that's, like, my personal philosophy.
[00:10:10] Education's important to me. I don't like talking to clients and not explaining things, right? Like, part of, part of, part of the way I've structured my practice is with an education element in it. There's brand counseling. What does that really mean? It's not just, "Okay, we're gonna file this trademark." It's like, "No, why you need this trademark?
[00:10:27] Do you understand that? Because if you don't understand that, then you can't keep building what you're building." Mm.
[00:10:31] Jennifer Ramsey: Right.
[00:10:32] Megan Senese: Yeah, and all that work go, goes for, goes right out the door. And I think that kind of speaks to one of the questions we threw, which, down, which is like, why, why do people underestimate, you know, the, the trademark, the copyright?
[00:10:43] Like, why... Like, what's... So think about, we're actually going through this process right now for ourselves, just trying to get- Mm ... our, our branding protected. And, you know, it's overwhelming. It's a big investment, particularly when you're a startup. And so talk to, like, I know this isn't legal advice, right? But, like, why, what would be the importance behind, like, why even do that, right?
[00:11:03] Like, what's the point? What's the benefit for people?
[00:11:05] Valérie Cambronne: Yeah. Uh, to your question about why people underestimate it, I think that there's kind of a marketing issue a little bit, especially with trademark law. I think there's a big range in how it's marketed, right? You can go to Google and type in, "Get a trademark right now," and then maybe it's $100, right?
[00:11:20] Anything that's typically marketed at a low price, someone is not gonna think... A consumer won't think that that's really important, right? But then to put it in perspective, NVIDIA was advertising a trademark counsel role last year, and the starting salary was $300,000. If that corporation thinks that that role is g- they're gonna pay that amount to this person, then perhaps there's a little bit more importance to trademark than the $100 site that's offering this pro- to help you with this process.
[00:11:49] So I don't know if it's people underestimate it as much as there's the marketing concern and then people just not understanding what it is. In most of the workshops we give when we talk to kids, they haven't even heard of IP law at all. They don't know what intellectual property is. They know what property is, and then you have, you have to further break that down.
[00:12:06] And when you say trademark and copyright, they might understand, but they don't really get The, the way that this can be a bottleneck, I think people don't realize how much you're going to invest personally and financially into building a brand, and to not have taken five seconds to Google something. I always tell my clients too, I'm like, "Did you Google it?
[00:12:25] Before you came here, did you Google it?" Google, Google searches are actually down right now. We can thank AI for that. But
[00:12:31] Megan Senese: Like, before you come up with something like, "I'm gonna name my company, you know, Apple"- Yeah ... Google it first. Yeah.
[00:12:38] Valérie Cambronne: Google it first, but also too, sometimes y- one, I think the Google check is you're figuring out did you create something that's truly unique, is number one.
[00:12:46] And if it's not truly unique, what's your unique contribution to it? I like to think of business like Sephora. Everyone's selling the same thing, but there's a reason I wanna go to another brand to get foundation versus this other brand. So I think people need to think not just about what I'm trying to protect, but if I'm doing something that already exists, what's the contribution that I'm doing that's different?
[00:13:08] Why, why would people choose my brand over someone else's?
[00:13:11] Megan Senese: That's business development right there. Yeah. And
[00:13:13] Jennifer Ramsey: marketing. Yeah.
[00:13:14] Megan Senese: And marketing. Yeah. I mean, just from our perspective, like we've spent so much time and energy and hours into, like, just building our brand, and we're like a small little shop, right?
[00:13:23] And so ... And that's only three years in, right? I can't imagine if you had to continue down this route, and then someone decides that they're gonna now name their company that or something to that, you know, something similar. So there's a lot of power- I
[00:13:35] Valérie Cambronne: have a crazy story about that too, the n- the naming thing, if you wanna know.
[00:13:38] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:13:39] Valérie Cambronne: So- Yes ... we were, we have, we're coming up with this organization, right? This is 2019. I tell Kiara, "We can't talk about IP if we don't have IP."
[00:13:46] Megan Senese: Right. "
[00:13:47] Valérie Cambronne: So we're, we're gonna need to file this trademark now." Uh, thankfully, we knew trademark attorneys, and we were working with one, and she was great, and she was using it as a teaching opportunity.
[00:13:55] So she was asking us like, "Well, what do you think we should do?" And w- 'cause she knew that we wanted to go into this space, although Kiara practices something different now. I know I wanted to go into this space. And a week before we filed the application for LegallyBlack, someone else filed LegallyBlack Girl Magic- Oh
[00:14:09] in the exact same class. And I knew immediately it was gonna be a problem. I'd worked at a trademark firm, um, as an intern before then. I was like, "Man, this is gonna be a problem." And although I thought Black Girl Magic was a generic phrase, kind of a subjective process 'cause it really depends on which examiner you get and whether or not they determine that they think that that was, you know, descriptive or, or a generic phrase.
[00:14:29] And they didn't. So we were suspended for almost two years-
[00:14:34] Megan Senese: Oh my gosh ...
[00:14:34] Valérie Cambronne: before, yeah, before we could get the registration. And thankfully, not for that applicant, but thankfully for us, her application was subject to a show cause order because the attorney that filed them, I guess, was under investigation for some type of fraud.
[00:14:48] And all of the appli- all of the applications that that attorney filed got, uh, canceled, including hers. So then the suspension lifted, and we got our registration for Legally-
[00:14:57] Megan Senese: Oh my gosh. That, it was meant to be
[00:15:01] Valérie Cambronne: It was meant to be, for sure.
[00:15:02] Megan Senese: Wow. That also goes to, like, trust the person who's filing it for you, right?
[00:15:07] You have to have an established relationship. You have to have a good reputation. That person needs to know what they're doing, not commit fraud, right? You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of lessons there. I wanna make sure that... I mean, part of the reason for our podcast is so that we, one, can meet amazing people, but two, we can amplify the causes of different organizations.
[00:15:25] So talk to us about, like, what does LegallyBlack need right now? Like, what do you need? How can we- Ooh ... how can we help amplify? Tell, tell, tell us the things
[00:15:34] Valérie Cambronne: Okay, yeah, I love this question. Hoo. So since getting the 501[c][3] status, we're now building the infrastructure. So we have a, a staff person now, which is really great.
[00:15:44] We wanna continue to have more staff, so we've been looking for grant writers specifically to help us with writing and applying for more grants. I'm in talks about, with nonprofit consultants right now, and I'm learning that a lot of the larger consulting companies also do give back and provide consulting services to nonprofits.
[00:16:01] So if anyone knows more about that, please feel free to reach out. But yes, I am an attorney, right? And I've been running an organization for six years now, which is a wonderful experience, and I'm learning a lot on the go. But now we are getting to a place where the growth is happening a lot faster, the momentum is building, the visibility efforts that we've put in have, have paid off, and now it's time to bring in, uh, nonprofit consultants to help us really scale.
[00:16:25] Because the hope is to become an organization that has chapters across the country that are ran by attorneys in those countries. So, like, similar to Boys & Girls Club or, you know, INTA that has chapters, like, across- Oh, yes ... across the country.
[00:16:37] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh my God. I love that. Are you... Do you wanna go global?
[00:16:40] Valérie Cambronne: Yes, absolutely.
[00:16:42] We actually had a, a young girl from Germany email us- Oh ... recently for, like, her school project, and I was like, "How did you even know about the organization in Germany?"
[00:16:50] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:16:50] Valérie Cambronne: But, um- Yes ... that was great.
[00:16:52] Jennifer Ramsey: I'm just curious if you've just had, like, all of a sudden something clicked, and you're like, "Yes."
[00:16:58] Valérie Cambronne: Okay, not to get super spiritual, but I have this belief- Do
[00:17:02] that you should not be facing blocks in life, like walls. I think you should be meeting obstacles, some of which are very high, and you have to climb really high to get over it, and it might take some time. But if you're meeting walls, that's called resistance, and I don't think that if you keep hitting resistance, you should be doing it anymore.
[00:17:21] And one thing I can say about the organization versus my own, you know, sh- practicing and struggles I've, I've faced while practicing, there is no resistance. There are plenty of obstacles, but there is no resistance. At no point have I ever felt like we're hitting a wall. I've always felt like, okay, we're hitting an obstacle, and now it's time to bring the different expertise to help overcome this, get over this obstacle, but not resistance.
[00:17:43] And I say that, and so, there's so many, so many examples. Like, every team member we've had has come to us and asked to be on the team. Harvard reached out to us to do the workshop. Like, there's, there's lit- MIT reached out to us. All the different great, awesome opportunities that keep coming, it's almost I feel like my hand's not even on it.
[00:18:02] It, it's just, it's flowing. It's, it's not resistance. It's just, it's just flowing.
[00:18:08] Jennifer Ramsey: I, I'm gonna cry. I, I'm gonna cry again on this podcast from that. Oh my God. That is-
[00:18:13] Megan Senese: It's really... I love the framing of that ...
[00:18:16] Jennifer Ramsey: that is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard, and it's so true. Like, resistance versus obstacle
[00:18:26] Valérie Cambronne: You can feel it too.
[00:18:27] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:18:29] Megan Senese: I think we're half joking, but I know you and I are very serious about our manifestations, Jen. And like you and I- Yes ... talk, you know, uh, and I think we'd also talk about, like, your relationship with, like, r- spirituality and religion versus mine, where I'm like anti-nothing, right? Even though I was raised super Catholic.
[00:18:46] And so I love this framing. I think it's such an abundance mindset, which you have to have- Mm-hmm ... if you're building anything. But I don't know if I've ever really heard it phrased that way, right? Like resistance versus obstacles.
[00:19:01] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:19:01] Megan Senese: I love that so much. Are you gonna... You should... Are you gonna trade- are you gonna trademark that?
[00:19:06] 'Cause
[00:19:06] I love it. Pretty much it. That's really
[00:19:11] Megan Senese: good. It also just, like, goes to, like, instead of hitting into a w- like, yeah, you're gonna have obstacles in your life, of course, right? But hitting resistance feels like, uh, I, I'm like, now I'm just, like, processing that. I actually feel like that I can think about so many different situations where that scenario, right, might work.
[00:19:30] And you're like, "Of course, yes, there's an obstacle," and we talk about a grind, right? And ha- having your startup, there's a grind. There's, those are obstacles, but there's no resistance really for, like- Right ... stage or, right? And so I love th- I love this so much.
[00:19:44] Jennifer Ramsey: It's so good.
[00:19:46] Valérie Cambronne: Part of the mission is, and I, I don't know if I've seen this before, so I'm gonna say maybe LegallyBlack has coined the phrase, but IP literacy is, is what we're trying to increase.
[00:19:55] Oh,
[00:19:55] Jennifer Ramsey: yes.
[00:19:56] Valérie Cambronne: Because it, it's, I think of it like financial literacy, right? To, to, if you're going to learn how to build credit, right? Or build better credit, I should say. You may not not get a credit card. You'll get a credit card, right? But with deeper understanding about utilization and how that's gonna impact your credit card score.
[00:20:12] To me, equity is the ability for everybody to make the same mistakes with the same level of understanding, right? So if we increase IP literacy across the board and you don't get trademark protection, but that was a choice- ... and you knew that you should have-
[00:20:26] Megan Senese: Right ...
[00:20:27] Valérie Cambronne: then that's, that's, that's on you. Right,
[00:20:29] Megan Senese: right.
[00:20:29] Valérie Cambronne: That's on you. Not, "Oh, I had no idea about this because I don't have access to this kind of education"- Right ... or, "My school doesn't include IP in its STEM or arts curriculum at all."
[00:20:38] Megan Senese: Mm. So.
[00:20:39] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:20:40] Megan Senese: What is the median or average age of students that come through your, your workshops? Is, is there an average age of children?
[00:20:50] Valérie Cambronne: I'd say about... We do more high school workshops than we do the younger grades, but we have done as young as fifth grade all the way to college level, but we do mostly high school.
[00:20:58] Megan Senese: This is also just in terms of a business development concept, one of the things- Mm-hmm ... and we've, Jen, you and I keep talking about this example, and I've referenced this example quite a bit, but there was an, a technology lawyer when, at one of our big firms that we worked at who would sit in these, like, incubator startups and just talk to people and paid to be, you know, was a firm sponsor to be there.
[00:21:20] And a lot of lawyers didn't wanna go and sit there. It was really time intensive, and nothing maybe was gonna hit. But couple years later, they would remember that that person sat with them, talked to them, gave them id- ideas, gave them advice, showed them, you know, different examples, taught them things, and they would say, "Hey, I have this startup," and it would, like, be a unicorn, like, multiple ti- multiple times.
[00:21:44] And it was so shortsighted, you know, that maybe it took four or five years, which is hard sometimes for lawyers to want to invest in business development, where you're like, "Yeah, business development's really easy. Just do this one thing, and then wait five, six years, and it will pay off," right? Like, it's a long-term investment, but-
[00:22:05] Valérie Cambronne: It is
[00:22:06] Megan Senese: it sounds like it's sort- starting to happen for you and your private practice as well.
[00:22:11] Valérie Cambronne: Yeah, absolutely, and for the organization as well. It was... Recently, we went to a Chicago visitors organization called the Chicago Women in IP. They honored LegallyBlack as a community partner this year. And the community committee, the committee that like puts on, you know, community events and stuff, she- she and I spoke on a panel together in 2023, and that's where I met her.
[00:22:31] And her name's Danny. And from 2023 to now, 2026, the- we've worked together. We did a workshop with ChiWP in Chicago last summer. Um, we continue to work with them. But that's like, to- to your point about things taking time, that has been in the works in some sense, and- and of course, this wasn't like I was, you know, we were looking for this.
[00:22:52] It all came, you know, naturally. But it takes time to activate a relationship and to- to see the impact of that, not for... just personally and for an organization. Everything that we've been doing or this... Some people are like, "Oh, you guys seem so successful." What's that saying? Like, it takes 10 years to be an overnight success.
[00:23:09] Right. It's not... Nothing is- is overnight, right? This- this, what you're seeing and the success the organization is facing now is like six- Six years ... six years in the making- Yeah. Right ...
[00:23:19] Megan Senese: of- Yeah ...
[00:23:20] Valérie Cambronne: of work.
[00:23:21] Megan Senese: Yeah. Sweat, tears. Long nights. Hopefully not any blood.
[00:23:26] Valérie Cambronne: No, no blood, no blood. Thankfully.
[00:23:28] Megan Senese: Yeah. So what would be one thing that you want students, creators, underserved, underrepresented communities to know both about your nonprofit, LegallyBlack, and- and now your- your private practice?
[00:23:43] What do you want them to know?
[00:23:45] Valérie Cambronne: I want them to know that the barrier to entry to starting a business or becoming a creator or an influencer is at the lowest it's ever been, and that they have an exceptional opportunity right now to build something, and that they have access to resources they previously could not have.
[00:24:02] And to know and understand that intellectual property law is going to be fundamental to their success, and to do the research that's available to them, and to seek resources. One thing that LegallyBlack is working on now, so I would love for people to reach out about this, is building a directory of pro bo- pro bono counsel that does provide IP services, IP legal services, for any creator or small business or startup that wants to do something, trademark something, copyright something, whatever, uh, to reach out to us, and we can help them, connect them with pro bono counsel to do that.
[00:24:34] That's what I'd want them to know, to take, take advantage of this, the, the timeline that you were born in, and for, for, for the ability to, to build. I mean, so many businesses popping up every single day, and we can thank the advancements of tech- in, in technology for that. But that means that, you know, there's
[00:24:51] That means applications will be up and, you know, people, people need to, to do that- Protect ... protection. Protect, exactly.
[00:24:56] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. It's a low barrier to entry, but it's, it's also com- very competitive.
[00:24:59] Valérie Cambronne: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:00] Jennifer Ramsey: And so, like, all of those forces together is, like, yeah, do your research, do your homework, get educated, and protect yourself.
[00:25:08] How do schools find you? Is it word of mouth? Or, like, I'm just curious about this, 'cause it's such a And I could see how you, LegallyBlack, partnering with STEM programs makes just a ton of sense too. All of a sudden, I have all these quest- And then I'm also like, do you have more girls going through this than boys?
[00:25:26] Out of, uh, uh, just out of curiosity.
[00:25:28] Valérie Cambronne: Okay. So your first question about how people find us, it has been predominantly through word of mouth. Um, and then also just people just emailing us and saying, "Hey, can you come to my school and do a workshop?" I think the fortunate thing, and I will say this wasn't an intentional decision, but it's working out for the organization now, our team is spread across multiple states.
[00:25:47] So there's a team member in LA, there's one in Dallas, there one in Maryland, there's one... I'm in Miami often. There's... I used to be in Chicago, but now we have a team member in Chicago. We have a new one we're bringing on in Orlando. So there's, they're, because they're everywhere, their network is also everywhere.
[00:26:01] Right. So it's, it's, it's a great way because people are more connected to organizations and schools than you might think. And I think the great thing about being an attorney is that you're actually encouraged significantly by your former corporation to do community work, whether that's being involved in a bar association or other organizations.
[00:26:18] It's very clear the pipeline of, you know, successful partners who are also part of X organization within their regional community. So we really, we really utilize that because that has connected us through other, to other organizations. So right now it's been word of mouth and people just, you know, cold emailing, "Hey, can you come to our workshop?
[00:26:38] Can you come to our school to do a workshop?" We do have a program director now, though, who is working to find more opportunities so that we can reach out and, and impact more students.
[00:26:45] Megan Senese: So if people wanted to reach out to your program director, they just go to the website and fill out the form?
[00:26:51] Valérie Cambronne: They can do that, or they can just directly email, email info@legallyblackip.
[00:26:55] Megan Senese: Yeah. I want- we're just gonna keep reference- I'm just like, how many times ...
[00:26:58] Jennifer Ramsey: Everyone, we're just gonna keep driving people to
[00:27:00] Valérie Cambronne: your website. Please, please do.
[00:27:02] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. To your point about doing community work, could private practice lawyers come on boards with LegallyBlack and give these workshops in schools?
[00:27:13] Valérie Cambronne: Absolutely. So, uh, Kiara works at Covington, so she's already doing this. And then, uh, recently, the workshop we did at, at a high school in DC, Dunbar, we brought on an attorney from Finnegan who reached out wanting to volunteer with the organization. So that's really, like, the model that I was talking about- Oh, yeah
[00:27:29] in building out the chapters. Okay. So it would be attorneys in the community, whether big law, midsize, or otherwise, we're not discriminating against where you work. But, um, to be able to come, and, uh, we would teach them a mo- the model, essentially. That's, that's what we're trying to build out the infrastructure now so that it can be replicated across different chapters across the country.
[00:27:48] Megan Senese: I love that. And I, we know quite a few, I mean, we know a lot of IP lawyers who are like, "What?" You know, "I wanna help. I wanna do things."
[00:27:56] Valérie Cambronne: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:56] Megan Senese: What a beautiful way to give back.
[00:27:58] Valérie Cambronne: Yes, exactly. We have two workshops coming up this month in Baltimore with this organization called Wide Angle Youth Media. And recently, we have this new collaboration with Howard Law.
[00:28:07] They have a trademark clinic. And so the law students are participating in this month's workshop, which is a really great way for them to now apply the knowledge that they're learning in school, and now be able to give back in this way.
[00:28:18] Jennifer Ramsey: There's lots of exciting things on the hor- like, that, that have happened and that are on the horizon.
[00:28:23] Megan Senese: So-
[00:28:23] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah ...
[00:28:24] Megan Senese: this is, this is, Jen, your claim to fame in terms of ending us usually on a high note. You only cried one time this, on this episode. Um- We- I think that's gonna be my goal now, Jen, is to make you cry every episode. We'll have to see if we can. We-
[00:28:37] Jennifer Ramsey: You know what I think it is? I, I, I just am... I get really emotional when I just, like, get to meet really good people, like you, Valérie.
[00:28:48] Aw. And, like, it's hard right now, right?
[00:28:51] Megan Senese: I'm just teasing you,
[00:28:52] Jennifer Ramsey: Jen. No, I know. But I think I just, it's hard right now in the world. And, like, when we get to meet, like, goodness-
[00:28:58] Megan Senese: Yeah ...
[00:28:59] Jennifer Ramsey: like, good people doing good things, I, like, there's just something that l- it really makes me emotional about it. I'm just like, "Oh."
[00:29:06] Well, it's
[00:29:06] Megan Senese: hopeful. And-
[00:29:07] Jennifer Ramsey: Thank God for you, Valérie. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is hopeful. It is. And it's just, like, you know, like, it just restores faith in humanity.
[00:29:13] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:29:14] Valérie Cambronne: Yeah.
[00:29:14] Jennifer Ramsey: You know? It's good to be reminded that, of, of the good.
[00:29:18] Valérie Cambronne: I guess that. But, but I will say, too, like, I'm truly just a vessel, right? So I feel like this is my calling on my life, and- Yes
[00:29:24] it's what I'm supposed to be doing, which is why it goes back to the resistance thing. But this is what I think what I'm supposed to be doing. And so as much as the success of the organization is great, and that is tied to me personally as well, I only went into this for altruistic purposes, and continue to have that in the front of mind, right?
[00:29:42] We're doing this for the kids, genuinely.
[00:29:45] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, my gosh, this was so good.
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