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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:06)
Hi.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:07)
Hi.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:09)
Hello. Have I shown for people watching my care bear smug?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:13)
my gosh, Milla would love that.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:14)
Is it not the best?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:16)
It's very cute.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:17)
Got it at a thrift store. I was like, how did someone get rid of this? And you know what's really sad? Right next to it was a strawberry shortcake one, and I chose between the two, and now I'm still kicking myself, why didn't I just buy them both? In my mind
Taina Brown she/hers (00:27)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:28)
I could only have one. Where was the rule that I could only have one?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:31)
Scarcity, scarcity mindset.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:33)
Yes, because it was thrift store pricing.
I mean I could have had them both. Truth be told, we don't need a bunch more mugs because we have quite a few. But then get rid of the ones I don't that don't spark joy because this sparks joy. And
Taina Brown she/hers (00:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:44)
it gets compliments when I go out in the store. So for anybody who's not looking, it's like one of the Stanley style kind of mugs and it has it's blue and it has the little care bears. And they're so cute. If you're old enough, you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:53)
Which
care bear were you or do you relate to the most?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:55)
I mean, listen, this is gonna speak to my personality.
And honestly, it's a really great swe segue into what I want to talk about today. Cause I was always the one who was the sad bear. I love like I always felt for anybody who was sad. Like, my favorite peanut was was it Linus, the one who carried around the little blink Binky and and was sucking his thumb all the time and he just looked sad. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14)
I think so.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:15)
And my favorite care bear was always the one who had the little cloud with the rain. I don't know if they had names. Were they rainy bear and I don't know. I don't remember their names.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:19)
Mm-hmm. I mean, the
only one I remember clearly by name is Funshine Bear, and that's only because Mellow insists she's Funshine Bear. You have a yellow one. I'm gonna look it up.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:30)
And then mine,
look, I'm right next to Mello, because mine's the blue one.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:33)
Hahahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (01:35)
we're a happy little couple. Well, she's happy and I'm sad. You'll have to send it to her. anyway. Yes, Rain Rainy Bear. Because I always felt sad. I always had like I've always been a very empathetic person, which
Taina Brown she/hers (01:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:46)
I think sometimes now becomes like shorthand for like
self-praise or something, like I'm deeply empathetic, like it means you're a really good person or something. And I don't mean that because I can be a really bad person, but I have a lot
Taina Brown she/hers (01:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:56)
of empathy. Meaning I genuinely can feel a lot of pain. When other people are in pain, I feel pain. Especially when it's people I care about. But even if it's people I don't know, animals in particular really stoke some of my deep
Taina Brown she/hers (02:07)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:07)
empathy. And it's painful. It's not fun being a person who walks around with I think outsized empathy. I think empathy is important.
But empathy, there can also be a thing I think of having almost too much empathy where you're now feeling pain for people you don't know that aren't near you, over like whom
Taina Brown she/hers (02:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:24)
you cannot, you have no agency to provide any help to. And that's a hard thing to like be sitting in, that kind of pain. But that is, I think, why I would always feel for like the little sad bear or the little sad peanut, because I was like, I want to help them and I love them and I'm so sad for them. And then I become sad because I'm feeling it.
And the reason I bring this up is because what I want to talk today about. And people don't just turn away because it's depressing, but it is depressing, which is Nepal and Tibet and climate
change.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:51)
And I posted on threads about how the video footage that we're all seeing coming out of this horrific, horrific set of circumstances of a glacier that
apparently melted, cracked, fell, and sparked an overwhelming and very fast moving flood that just wiped
Taina Brown she/hers (03:09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:09)
people out. Like gone. They're gone.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:11)
Yeah,
yeah it was... the videos are just wild.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:16)
It
they're almost too hard to even wrap your brain around, right? Because it
Taina Brown she/hers (03:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:20)
almost looks like something out of a movie. And I think that's part of the problem. I think a lot of us have become so accustomed to seeing these horror the like disaster films where
Taina Brown she/hers (03:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:28)
you just see entire civilizations wiped out and you almost like this whole thing almost felt again, privilege of distance and everything else, where it almost doesn't feel real to a degree where you're just like, What? And where you Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:38)
Yeah, yeah. There's a desensitization
for sure. Like when I first saw it, I was like, that's not real. That's fake.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:46)
Well and also in the AI age, we're always like, Is this real or not? Right? 'Cause of
Taina Brown she/hers (03:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:50)
course I think a lot of us are probably like, that can't be real because also the yeah, it's just it's so catastrophic and mind boggling that you're just like it ca you I think part of it is you don't want it to be real. You
Taina Brown she/hers (04:00)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:01)
can't believe it is real. And then you start to feel like it's almost like but it they're just like it it feels like when you're watching a disaster movie and it's like it's like ants getting run over or something.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:11)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:11)
The scale of it is so massive that you just can't wrap your brain around it. But anyway,
Taina Brown she/hers (04:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:16)
also in the modern age, we doom scroll, we are exposed to repeated imagery. And I will preface this by saying it's been a few days and I am now pulling myself out of it. So I'm coming into this with that perspective of having been in a pretty good funk about it and now coming out of it.
But I posted on threads that it was really, really triggering some of my nihilism that I know exists inside of me, which is this like, what the fuck is the point? We
Taina Brown she/hers (04:44)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:44)
might as well all just give up and you know, like I'm I mean, I'm not like it's not s offing myself tendencies or anything like that. But it is this deep like apathy that can happen for me where I'm just like, what is the point?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:54)
Mm-mm. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:57)
Why care? Why try? We're all screwed. And it was
I also saw, and I sent to you, I don't know if you a chance to look at it, at the same time in my feed, I see this report that I guess was out on 60 Minutes or somewhere of these rich ass people who are creating. I don't know if you've ever seen Paradise or Silo
Taina Brown she/hers (05:14)
Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:15)
or any of the other like underground bunker shows that exist. But they're creating this like in real life, like this underground community that has an in-ground pool, it's got a jail, it's got
Taina Brown she/hers (05:26)
A jail?
Becky Mollenkamp (05:27)
Uh-huh. I in case somebody he was like, in case somebody gets a little drunk and rowdy and needs to have a timeout. I'm like, what? It has multiple apartments. It's got like anyway, it's like a it's its own community for ul the ultra wealthy. He keeps talking about the ultra wealthy, which if I'm ever included in the ultra wealthy, kill me. Because fuck that. Like I don't ever want that term even on my name. It's
Taina Brown she/hers (05:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:46)
just so gross. And that they're building this for the ultra wealthy so that they can survive whatever the apocalypse, the I don't know. I mean many people
Taina Brown she/hers (05:53)
with a jail, like
what the fuck kind of survival dream is that?
Becky Mollenkamp (05:57)
Well,
I think it speaks a bit to the kind of people who are thinking they're gonna be there, right? Because they're
Taina Brown she/hers (06:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:02)
not there for collective care. They're not the kind of people that we we are like spending time with. Correct. And so they're thinking about
Taina Brown she/hers (06:04)
Yeah, they're there for self preservation. Yeah, at all cost. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:09)
what happens in that scenario. We start eating each other, we start killing each other, right? Like I'm sure that's where their brains go. And people point it out, like this isn't gonna save them in an appall situation. They're just gonna be in their underground tomb and that's gonna fill with water. But it did it all just sort of like happened at the same time where there's this piece of me that's like w
The nihilism kicks in of what's the point when the people who have the the most agency, the most power to actually effect the change that's needed to stop this climate crisis are preparing to live underground like mole people. Like and just leave the rest of us to fight for whatever scraps are left.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:40)
More people.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:43)
And it's really hard. It's hard to wake up. It's hard to get going. It's hard to go through the motions when there is this like looming thing of, you know, and then like two days later, the Grand Canyon floods, and there's all these stories coming out from that. And it's just like one natural disaster. And I call them natural disasters, but they're really man-made disasters. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:01)
Yeah, they're climate disasters.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:02)
Right. Happening again and again. I don't know. We've talked about this before.
I know, but it's been a hot minute since we've had a how the fuck do I get up and function when the world is on fire conversation? And I've been feeling it a little bit. Even more acutely
Taina Brown she/hers (07:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:18)
than, you know, when Trump was elected. I'm just feeling
Taina Brown she/hers (07:21)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (07:22)
this like because even that starts to feel like, what's the fucking point in electing voting? What's the fucking point in anything? Because the cli the the planet is gonna like kill us all. So what who cares? Like you
Taina Brown she/hers (07:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:32)
know what I mean? That's
And it's not who I am. And people were reminding me on threads that, you know, because we have to have people that are still in it. We have to keep fighting. We have But it's fucking hard. So I turn it over to you, Taina, to, I don't know, restore my faith in humanity, to tell me go ahead, it's all over. What I'm in trouble.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:45)
That's a that's that that's too much too big of job for me, but
Becky Mollenkamp (07:51)
What are you what are your thoughts? Like I don't know, you you I'm sure have consumed the Nepal stuff too.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:55)
A little bit, you know, I try not to
Becky Mollenkamp (07:58)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:59)
consume too much news just because it is very easy to fall into that and to
Becky Mollenkamp (08:05)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:06)
just kind of feel overwhelmed with that sense of just like hopelessness and despair. So, you know, I watch a little bit of news. I see a little some of the headlines here and there, which is
You know, it's interesting because we do watch a lot of true crimes. but I feel like that's that feels different than just like day to day news. Like true crime is a story that for the most part, those are stories, real stories, obviously, that have a beginning, a middle and an end. And the day to day. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:37)
Well, they're also usually interpersonal things where more
often than not there are people who know each like it's stuff over which you feel like you do have a degree of agency, I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:45)
Yes.
Yeah. And there's a degree of detachment. Like, I didn't know that
Becky Mollenkamp (08:48)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:49)
person who committed those atrocious acts, right? And so that doesn't mean that I will never know someone who is capable of doing that. yeah, that's a different conversation. So yeah, Melo is really the one who likes to watch the news. I've said this before. She likes to watch the local news in the morning and then the couple hours of the CBS morning show.
I think I just, and I don't know how healthy this is, but I'm just kind of checked out from all of that. And that's not to say that like I'm not, I'm unaware of what's happening in the world. I am very much aware of what's happening. But I have just chosen to like focus my energy on other things. And so I let myself be informed without engaging.
And I think that's the line that I think that has helped me to maintain some of my sanity and some of my hope, right? It's like, how do I stay informed without necessarily being fully engaged in what's happening?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:45)
What does that differentiation mean to you? Like what is being informed, how does that look different than engaging? I this isn't me challenging you. I'm genuinely just curious. What does that look like?
Taina Brown she/hers (09:53)
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean,
I think it looks, I think it's something that will look different for everybody, right? Like I think I know where my limits are. Like I know mentally, emotionally where my lines are for the most part. Like obviously there are things that will catch me off guard, you know, every now and again, or I will make.
a foolish decision every now and again and be caught off guard because of that. But I think each person needs to know what that line is for them. Like how
Becky Mollenkamp (10:23)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:24)
much time is too much time watching the news? How much time is too much time reading headlines or reading stories or sharing or doom scrolling? Right. And so I've just chosen to just
tow that line very carefully for myself so that I don't get overwhelmed. And I think it's harder probably for people who do have children because there probably feels like there's more at stake for someone than for someone like me. Like I don't have kids so I don't, I feel
the stakes for me and for my friends. Yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (10:51)
Yeah, but you have people you love who are younger.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:54)
yeah. I have people that I care about that these things affect directly, you know, and so that some of these things affect directly and so
Not to say that the stakes don't feel high for me, depending on the context, but I think when there's, when you're responsible for an entire human being in your home or who may or may not be in your home, maybe they're off at college or, or maybe they, you're divorced and they live with their other parent, right? Like, I feel like those stakes feel different or could potentially probably feel different than for someone like me.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:25)
Yeah.
I mean, to be fair, before I had kids, it was easier for me to not fixate or think necessarily too far into the future. Like 'cause I it
Taina Brown she/hers (11:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:35)
did feel like, okay, it ends with me and you know, this is sad, but like whatever. You know what I mean? Like
Taina Brown she/hers (11:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:39)
and not that that was an excuse for me to just be like, I don't have to recycle, I don't have to do anything,
Taina Brown she/hers (11:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:43)
it doesn't matter, but it was sort of like it didn't feel as personal. It did sort
Taina Brown she/hers (11:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:47)
of feel like, well, future generations are screwed, but good luck to them, right? Like it now feels like, no, that's
my kid and and his kids or whatever that we're talking about and it does feel really more personal, I think, in that way. So I hear what you're saying. And I mean, I don't think that just means that people without kids necessarily aren't also feeling i intently I or acutely, I do think anxiety probably plays a bigger role in it than anything. Like
Taina Brown she/hers (12:11)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:12)
and people like myself who have, you know, clinical anxiety, who are like have an anxiety disorder.
and even if you don't, like I just think it's very triggering of anxiety. And so if you're somebody who deals with el elevated anxiety frequently, I think that probably makes it more challenging than almost anything. My anxiety happens
Taina Brown she/hers (12:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:29)
to be fairly linked to well, that's not really true. I had anxiety disorder before I had a kid. It certainly increased
Taina Brown she/hers (12:34)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:35)
it. it didn't create it, but it increased it. But you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (12:37)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:38)
first of all, because you're talking about consumption of the news, and I
Taina Brown she/hers (12:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:41)
think that's really important. It's like how much of this are we consuming?
And are we being conscious of that consumption? And I
Taina Brown she/hers (12:46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:47)
think that's like where does it toe the where does it trip from I'm consciously consuming this because I want to be informed, like you said, versus I'm not even I'm just consuming without really even thinking about it anymore. And that's
Taina Brown she/hers (12:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:58)
where I think it does become problematic. But what what is that instinct or that I don't know, maybe it's not instinct, but I do see it. It almost feels like it's a natural instinct. And I'm it probably is something to do with our amygdalas and fear. But what is it that makes us
Consume stuff that we know, like Doom Scroll, to to watch things that we know are going to upset us, things that trigger that anxiety. Like
Taina Brown she/hers (13:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:21)
I can see myself n I can see it in myself. I mean, I
Taina Brown she/hers (13:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:24)
again, I'm on the other side of this now. I have stopped consuming the Nepal stuff because it I I finally was like, I can't, this is not healthy. However, even in it, I could see it wasn't healthy and I just like I felt like I couldn't stop. Like I just
Taina Brown she/hers (13:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:37)
was seeking it out of like show me more of this thing that is upsetting me. Like there was a particular
Taina Brown she/hers (13:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:42)
video where I saw a dog and I it was running and I knew this dog three seconds later, you know, we know it's gone, right? Because I saw the water and I know and I had to have watched that video that same thing like 10 times and blew it up and like I and this is not healthy. And I and
Taina Brown she/hers (13:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:57)
again, I'm on the other side of it. I know this. And yet
Taina Brown she/hers (14:00)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:00)
Sometimes
when I'm in that, I can't seem to pull myself out of it. Even if I recognize
Taina Brown she/hers (14:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:04)
this isn't good for me. And I don't know what that instinct is. Is it about
Taina Brown she/hers (14:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:07)
trying to find some control over something that's uncontrollable? What do you think that is? I can't be the only one who does it.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:12)
Yeah, yeah.
You're probably not, you're probably not the only one who does it because like I know for a fact like whenever Mellow is doom scrolling, her device is always on like loud because of she has hearing problems and she has ADHD so she needs the overstimulation. So I can always tell when she's like watching like just like repeatedly watching something because the sound keeps replaying right?
Becky Mollenkamp (14:35)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:36)
So like you're definitely not the only person who does that.
But I think that's where the line is for me, or that's part of where the line is for me between being informed and engaging with it. For
Becky Mollenkamp (14:46)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:46)
me, being informed is like, OK, I saw it once. I don't need to see it again. But engaging with it is like repeating it, doing those. Then at that point, kind of putting yourself through
Becky Mollenkamp (14:56)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:57)
the trauma of watching that over and over again. Then it's like an active. Then it's.
It's a different choice that you're making at that point, besides being informed. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it does
Becky Mollenkamp (15:05)
Yeah, it's like self flagellation or something where I'm like I
Taina Brown she/hers (15:09)
go back to control because even, even before I made the decision, like the first time Trump got elected, I was like, okay, I really need to like figure out how much news I really want to consume because I can't be doing this every day. It's too much. So like before that, like I always
felt like, and a part of me still does with certain things, it's like, the more information I have, then the more equipped I am to handle this, then I have better control over what's
Becky Mollenkamp (15:38)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:39)
happening in my life, right? Regardless of what's happening
Becky Mollenkamp (15:41)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:42)
out there, but what's happening in my life, what's happening with me. But when the source of the information is creating trauma, that formula doesn't exist anymore.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:54)
Yeah.
I think it's my brain
Taina Brown she/hers (15:55)
Like, and then it's a different scenario.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:57)
Yeah. I think my brain's trying to seek that out. I think it's probably
Taina Brown she/hers (15:59)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:00)
going like you know, even though like zooming in and looking around and like I think
Taina Brown she/hers (16:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:03)
there's some part of my brain that's trying to think, what did they do wrong? What would I how
Taina Brown she/hers (16:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:08)
could I have done this differently? What could they have done or what you know, and and I think when the answer is they didn't do anything wrong, there's nothing they could have done differently. And
Taina Brown she/hers (16:15)
There's nothing they could have done.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:16)
exactly. And this is just what happened. That becomes unbearable.
Right? It becomes like the brain is just like, no, no, no. I gotta keep seeking because there has to be something that
Taina Brown she/hers (16:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:26)
then makes me feel like I can avoid this on my like for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:30)
Like, because we wanna believe that these are things that happen to other people, right? And that
Taina Brown she/hers (16:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:35)
whatever the things are, what you know, this is one example of that, but it could be anything. I can see a a plane crash, I can see a car crash, I can see it doesn't matter. I feel like my brain is always in those scenarios trying to seek out some information that.
That makes me like that calms it down that says,
Taina Brown she/hers (16:50)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:52)
if it were if it were us, we would be okay. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:55)
And and I think when the answer is there was nothing they could do, like the same with like a plane crash or something, that's where it becomes crippling almost. Like it's just this unbearable.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:02)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:03)
And so it's like, I think the repetition is just like this con like trying to seek out some different reality that just doesn't exist.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:10)
And then eventually I guess my brain starts to shut down, which is where that nihilism kicks in. And I
Taina Brown she/hers (17:14)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:15)
do think once I start to feel the like,
There is nothing and we're all fucked and it's just over. Then that's where I I start to be able to notice it and say, okay, I gotta, I have like, I have to move on. I have to figure out something
Taina Brown she/hers (17:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:26)
else. But then there that also then triggers some of the like guilt feelings
Taina Brown she/hers (17:30)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:31)
that I think are pretty natural for people to have too, where those of us like we see these things all the time, and life goes on for those for whom life is still continuing. And there's
Taina Brown she/hers (17:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:41)
like the survivor's guilt kind of thing that
is real. And I mean survivor's guilt is a real thing. It happens all the time for people on a personal
Taina Brown she/hers (17:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:48)
level. And I think the more empathy you tend to have, and again, not in like some you're better than other people, but just like if you're the
Taina Brown she/hers (17:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:55)
kind of person who tends to feel other people's pain a bit more deeply,
Taina Brown she/hers (17:59)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:00)
like that that stuff gets overwhelming. It can be really
Taina Brown she/hers (18:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:04)
overwhelming to be carrying around just like all the stuff that we're consuming that we were never meant to consume.
Right? No one was
Taina Brown she/hers (18:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:11)
meant to consume the wh enti to see the entire world's problems in like have to
Taina Brown she/hers (18:16)
Problems, yeah, in the palm of your hand.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:19)
Yeah, but there is that too of just like there's
Taina Brown she/hers (18:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:22)
some like God like the planet is falling apart and I'm selling services and I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (18:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:29)
taking my kid to soccer practice and I'm like, you know, need
Taina Brown she/hers (18:32)
thinking about what to cook for dinner.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:34)
a new pair of shoes and like you know, yeah, it's
Taina Brown she/hers (18:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:37)
That dissonance is really
Taina Brown she/hers (18:38)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:39)
hard for the human brain, I think, to like just go about and and
Taina Brown she/hers (18:44)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:44)
and not have it if you're a person with a heart, I think, you know, like even if you don't have the deepest walls of empathy, I think anybody with a heart, that is hard. That's hard to just
Taina Brown she/hers (18:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:53)
be like, Yep, okay, so then what do you want for dinner? You know, it's really challenging.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:55)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I don't even
know if I would call it survivor's guilt, right? Like, I think for it to be survivor's guilt, we would have had to endure the same thing, right? Like, I think
Becky Mollenkamp (19:03)
Well yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:05)
it's more of a guilt born from a certain kind of privilege, from not having had to endure that thing, but still be exposed to it.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:12)
And feeling like some
Yeah, and some responsibility. Like it's not as if
Taina Brown she/hers (19:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:17)
I and my carbon footprint caused that, but our collective carbon footprint certainly caused it. And in America,
Taina Brown she/hers (19:20)
Right. Yeah. Collective. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:24)
our carbon footprint contributed to it more than the people of Nepal's, you know? And so yeah, there is that. Like a like
Taina Brown she/hers (19:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:31)
and here we are, continuing to contribute to the carbon footprint at a rate far greater
Taina Brown she/hers (19:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:36)
than Nepal or Tibet.
are and yet they're dealing with the consequences of our actions.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:40)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:41)
And my kid needs new shoes and what do I do about that?
Taina Brown she/hers (19:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:45)
You know, and how do I buy those in a way that's ethical and doesn't continue to and that's where I guess the nihilism kicks in because it feels like the solutions aren't there. Or
Taina Brown she/hers (19:53)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:54)
the solutions that are there aren't being implemented by the people who have the power to
Taina Brown she/hers (19:57)
Aren't enough, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:58)
do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:59)
It's really hard. I mean it's hard to just do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:00)
Yeah, yeah, it is hard.
It is hard, you know, and I think we talked about this, I don't know if it was last week or a few weeks ago, but like, it's not, it's important to remember that like, the goal isn't to like, fully divest ourselves from these systems that create these problems, because that's an impossibility at this time. Like the goal is to...
remove our need for these systems as much as possible. And that's going to be different on a day-to-day basis based on our context, right? Like if tomorrow one of us wins the lottery and we can afford to no longer buy from Target or wherever, then our context has changed and we're able to lean further away from.
from having to rely on some of these systems and these companies and these structures that are causing so much harm in the world. But until then, we do what we can. And I think it's also important to just understand that it's not just abstaining from engaging with content or news or organizations or companies that are
perpetuating these harms and creating this trauma, this collective trauma that we're all experiencing. Like that's the first part of it. The second part of it is like, what are you doing with the space that is now empty, right? Like how are you filling that space now that you have
Becky Mollenkamp (21:31)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:32)
more time or more
Becky Mollenkamp (21:34)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:34)
whatever, right? Like what are you doing with that extra time or that extra ability or capability to like engage with other things?
And so, because if you just like leave that space empty, then your mind is just going to keep turning over and over again. Right. Like then you might as well just be engaging with the material because that's what your brain, that's all your brain is going to know. And so you have to like train yourself to like, you have to train your brain to like think on other things, to engage with things that do feel good, whether it's community or hobbies or your family or
Whatever the case may be, Like, how are you filling that time and that space in a way that feels less nihilistic and more like hopeful?
Becky Mollenkamp (22:16)
Well, or at least less nihilistic. Don't get me I can't
Taina Brown she/hers (22:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:20)
go from less than listen, I'm not going from sad bear to happy bear. That like that's a big leap.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:23)
It's a scale. It's a scale.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:25)
Yeah, can I find a bear in between, maybe. well before because I think that's a really great place for us to end on is like some of those like what do you do with the time and what are some strategies or things that help. Before we go there, there is one other thing I and maybe you have others, but one thing that I also has me thinking about is just the like and I don't use this term flippantly, but the crazy making
feeling of this of the answers seem so clear to a level-headed person, I think, of one, we have to acknowledge that the climate is changing. And the fact that there are people who still can't even do that as the glaciers are melting and and taking out entire like populations is again, it's like, it's like crazy making. It really does make you start to think, what
Taina Brown she/hers (23:02)
It's Grasslighting.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:03)
yeah, because you're just like, what world am I live? Like, where are you all living? And how is this, how is this real? And then
The fact that people know things that they could be doing at this corporate level and at the government level and aren't. And in the name of profits and whatever, like it does make people, I think with rational thought who and and who care, it is enough to make you start to feel like you're spinning and like you're losing your mind. Like, am I the only person
Taina Brown she/hers (23:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:28)
who's doing this?
And that like is also unsettling. And for anybody
Taina Brown she/hers (23:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:32)
who's been gaslit in other ways, like you know how
Taina Brown she/hers (23:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:35)
it can start to really make you feel isolated. It can make you doubt yourself. It can start to make
Taina Brown she/hers (23:40)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:41)
you like question your own reality. Like, those are not things that that
Taina Brown she/hers (23:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:45)
help when you're in that like heavy space anyway. And so that's
Taina Brown she/hers (23:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:50)
just something else that as we're talking about this, it's making me think of like, why does it all feel so heavy? And that is another piece of it that feels heavy, is this like.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:57)
sitting there going am I you you just start like am I the only one am I the only one seeing this right like Yeah you really
Taina Brown she/hers (24:02)
Am I going crazy here? Like, is this really happening? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:05)
can start to feel that especially if you're in an i I think I'm just trying to speak to the people like myself who maybe suffer from anxiety, maybe have suffer from depression, have other kinds of issues that that may make these things feel heavier and are coexisting with people who for whom maybe they don't have those sorts of things. And I have a
a a a better ability to sort of separate themselves from these things or to compartmentalize things where I can be very challenged by trying to compartmentalize and other people can be very good at that. And I'm not saying one's better or not better. But when you maybe are coexisting with other people who are in a different place, it's just one more thing that can make you, I think, make everything feel heavy and isolating and so challenging. Cause you it you can start to feel like, am I the only one? When everyone else is like,
Taina Brown she/hers (24:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:49)
yeah, I see it. It's awful. And
What do you want for dinner? And you're like, how are we talking about dinner? Right. So I
Taina Brown she/hers (24:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:54)
just I want to speak to those people to say you're not alone and you're not crazy because I I get it. It's really, really hard. It's really hard to be that
Taina Brown she/hers (24:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:01)
person where not every and and again, it's not to say that showing up this way is better. It's just different. And I think there are different ways that we all respond.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. And I had to learn for myself that like, that reaction for me anyway, was born out of a very specific expectation of people who have power and who have privilege. And once I released that expectation from them, then I'm just like, yeah, of course, of course they would.
respond that way.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:33)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:34)
Of course they wouldn't. Because
Becky Mollenkamp (25:36)
And
Taina Brown she/hers (25:36)
that's what they've shown us who they are. They've shown us what they
Becky Mollenkamp (25:41)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:42)
care about. I think for people who feel that way, would just challenge you. Are your expectations valid of these people in order to elicit this kind of response? And that's not a question.
to like shame or condemn, that's a question to say your expectations are priceless. Don't put them on people who refuse to meet them. your expectations, that's part of your energy. Like don't waste your
Becky Mollenkamp (26:08)
It's such a good point though.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:10)
energy.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:10)
It is another example, probably, of privilege showing, right? In that it does, it is a privilege to have my nihilism kicking in at this point. In so many places where, you know, things get activated for me that for because I think that was some of the response to my thread too. There were some people who made a similar sort of point of, like, we've been knowing this, right? Of like many,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:32)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (26:34)
many folks sort of showing up and saying, like.
Yeah, like why, you know, as if this is revelatory or news, and the fact that it can feel that way to me is is yet another example in the same way that I think for so many people, what happened in 2020 with with George Floyd. God,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:50)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:51)
I was gonna say George Foreman. That's how my this is paramenopodic. I know. I just want to say it was another
Taina Brown she/hers (26:53)
gosh!
Becky Mollenkamp (26:56)
George F. And I was like, I know that's not it. He's the boxer. What George Floyd? how that
that felt like so revelatory for a lot of white folks and people being like, y I mean, that's your privilege showing. And I know, certainly as an American and as a as a privileged American, a white pr American, you know, and I think just Americans on the whole, we are causing these up problems but not having to live with the consequences of them as much.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:18)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:18)
And then, you know, folks who have more privilege in America who live in areas because we know that pollution in America is even being compacted into more black
Taina Brown she/hers (27:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:26)
and brown areas. So like, yeah, it is a privilege.
It is a privilege to be in a place of being disappointed by people in power, right? And
Taina Brown she/hers (27:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:34)
so I think it's a really great point. And I guess it takes me to the other piece that I that you brought up that I think is a great place for us to like spend the rest of the time because it's the place I think I I want to get to and I need my head at, which is the like, okay, and then what? Because it's really easy
Taina Brown she/hers (27:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:48)
for me to stay in the it's all overwhelming. And I have been pulling myself out of that, but it's that reminder of the and then what. And clearly I need this
Taina Brown she/hers (27:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:55)
refresher at least annually.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:56)
Yeah. Maybe every, maybe once a quarter at this point in the world that we're living in.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:56)
maybe every six months because I feel like we have a some version of this conversation for me. Yep. It feels like Uh-huh.
And and I need it. Every every si three to six months I'm like, wait, remind me again? How do I survive this? and the first thing that I'm thinking about is just this piece of community and who you are having in your corner and who you are having conversations with and who you are communing with about these things. Because like you said
I can't be putting these expectations onto certain people. And there are other people that it's not necessarily about expectations, but that I know that I can have this conversation with that have the understanding and the nuance and the same we have the same goals and the same
Taina Brown she/hers (28:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:36)
lived, like we're we're trying to put those things into practice, right? And being with those people.
gives me more feeling of agency than when I am having conversations like this with people who are maybe better at compartmentalizing or
Taina Brown she/hers (28:48)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:49)
who don't have the same ultimate concern and
Taina Brown she/hers (28:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:52)
you know, whatever that might look like. So I think part of it is who's in your community, who do you have your corner? How are you like finding those people to be in space with around whatever the issues are that are making you feel heavy?
Taina Brown she/hers (29:03)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I would even take it a step further back, right? Like we joked about this, you know, towards like a few minutes ago, whenever, like it's like all this stuff is happening and there's this disaster in Nepal and all these people's lives have been like irrevocably changed. And yet we have to think about what am I making for dinner? Like, what is your kid gonna wear to school tomorrow? Like, but like,
On the flip side of that, all that stuff that's happening out there, we have no control over that, right? On an individual level. But we do have control what happens in our home. So decide what to cook for dinner. Decide what your weekend is going to look like. Like any time that you practice exhibiting or exerting that agency over the things that you do have control over, that's going to chip away at that nihilism.
Because the nihilism comes in because we feel like we have no control, right? We feel like there's no agency, there's absolutely nothing we can do. But the things that you do day to day, like those things stack up. They will add
Becky Mollenkamp (30:05)
They do.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:06)
up to you feeling like, okay, I do have some sense of structure here. I do have some say in what happens in my day to day life, even if.
these disasters keep happening, even if these headlines keep showing up on my phone, you know? So yeah, I would take it even one step further back. Decide what you wanna do in your home and then expand from there. Like, when do you wanna see your friends? When do you wanna talk to your friends? What do you want to talk to them about? Like, what do you wanna do for the holidays? know, like some people are already starting to plan for that, right? Cause school is just starting up. The holidays will be here before you know it.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:43)
Stop.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:45)
Sorry, I'm a planner, so I'm already thinking, okay, what do we do for Thanksgiving?
Becky Mollenkamp (30:44)
No, I I need to relish this. I I know, but you're wishing away my whole school year. I need every minute of the school year. I don't want to wish away a second
of it. No. Can I yes and that with as you're saying that? Because part of me is like, yes, I love that. And I and so that there's the yes. And there's also the part of me that's like another thing that almost feels good is to surrender to the fact that I have no control.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:06)
Mm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:07)
Sometimes. So like so I think sometimes
it's also a choose your own adventure depending on where you're at. But there are times
Taina Brown she/hers (31:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:12)
too where if I can go to the place where I can surrender and say I don't have control in that bringing myself back to the present moment because it's for me it's often the spiraling. And no, I
Taina Brown she/hers (31:20)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:21)
don't have any control over whether a whole torn a tornado, you know, because where I'm at, that's one of our big things with climate change is the increased number of tornadoes, the severity, the fact that they're hitting cities more often now and where they used to be much more in the rural area, all of that. I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:32)
Yeah, they used to not. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:34)
So, like for me, that that might be a thing that I could spin out on, but I can also say, yeah, I and I guess what? I don't get to control tornadoes. I don't get to control weather patterns. I can recycle, I can, I can make better choices on the things I'm purchasing, all of those. And because that's why I want to be and because I don't want it to be the nihilism if I have no control, so I'll just do whatever the like anarchy, I'll do whatever I want.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:53)
But it's like I don't have control, can I surrender that to say then then knowing that in this moment, what would feel right? What's aligned with my values? What would feel good?
What would make me feel like I'm doing something right now that feels good? It's kind of like the yes anding of like, yeah,
Taina Brown she/hers (32:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:06)
I don't I don't have control, right? And so it's not even
Taina Brown she/hers (32:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:09)
about what can I find control in today, but how do I make today feel like the day I want it to feel like, right? That means
Taina Brown she/hers (32:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:16)
like I'm showing my child love, that I'm modeling to him what it means to be a good human, that we're that I'm putting food in my family that feels nutritious, which by the way, also
Is probably better for the environment, right? Like a lot
Taina Brown she/hers (32:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:29)
of the things that if we just act out of our values because we sort of surrender to what is, like a lot of times those things end up being the the best choices for the thing we're trying to solve for. So yeah. Sometimes that surrendering doesn't work for me, but when the surrendering does, it can help me be more
Taina Brown she/hers (32:37)
Yeah. Yeah. 100 % agree. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:45)
present.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:46)
Yeah. And it's, think that acceptance part of it, is what you're getting at there, right? Like if we can accept that there are things outside of our control, right, then that helps us, it helps to clear the fog. So that way we can say,
this for sure is out of my control. This is within my control, right? It helps to draw those lines, right? Like you may not have control whether or not or tornado hits your home, but you have control over what your plan is for if or tornado hits your home, you know? And so, what's the disaster plan,
Becky Mollenkamp (33:18)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. We gotta go box. You gotta have that. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:24)
right? Like where are you gonna go? Like where's your emergency kit? what? And so I think that's just...
That's just a part of, in the most general sense, right? That's a part of the human experience, right? There are always gonna be things within and without our control. I think in the disdain age that we live in, like knowing that is more important than ever, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (33:50)
Yeah, and I think I like that you said acceptance because I think there's also and surrender can mean the same thing versus submission, right? Or acceptance
Taina Brown she/hers (33:56)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:57)
versus like pat like being passive. Like there's a difference between me saying I don't have control and then me saying, so there's nothing I can do anyway, right? It's like
Taina Brown she/hers (34:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:07)
I don't have control and I can do the things that I can do. But I like the part I want to stop is the spinning, which is the spinning comes because I'm trying to control things I can't.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:13)
Yeah. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:16)
So it's like, can I just say
Taina Brown she/hers (34:16)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:17)
I can't control those things and then focus where do I have something I can do? And then how do I just accept the parts that I can't, which all sounds a lot easier than it actually is to do. But it's helpful. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:26)
for sure. This is not something that happens overnight.
This is, it's a skill. It's a learned skill.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:33)
Well, and it's and it's a practice because I think you have to continue to do it because again, like I can pra I've practiced it in multiple things we've talked about, Trump getting elected and all of the stuff that's been happening domestically. And it's like, okay, I put these things into pr like I was feeling this there, put all the same sort of things we're talking about into practice, and then whew, get hit by Nepal that feels like a c entirely different sort of scenario
Taina Brown she/hers (34:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:56)
than those others.
That stokes all these new kinds of fears and different things. And it's like, okay, now I gotta put it into practice in a new situation. And there's gonna be something else that comes along and another something, another something. And it's like
Taina Brown she/hers (35:06)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:08)
it's this opportunity to practice each time.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:13)
one other thing you mentioned too was filling the time. So I think obviously some of the filling the time is who are like who are you being in being in community with people and making sure those people you're in community with are great.
are the kinds of people that you can feel the real support from that are that you feel like you're
Taina Brown she/hers (35:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:29)
collectively moving towards something because that helps to create some agency and helps with the like crazy making piece, like, there are other people,
Taina Brown she/hers (35:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:35)
right? Makes you feel less alone. The like part around what can I control and doing some planning there. One other thing that when you were talking about what else you fill your time with and you c you mentioned it briefly, which is I think also giving myself that the reminder that going back to that like survivor guilt or whatever we want to call it, that feeling of
Because everything sucks so bad, I have to suffer, right? And there is that
Taina Brown she/hers (35:55)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:56)
piece of we don't have to suffer. It doesn't not suffering doesn't have to mean that in the same way of like acceptance versus like being passive about it. It's like I don't have to suffer to also care. Like those two things
Taina Brown she/hers (36:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:09)
can I can I can care and I can still find joy. And I have to remember
Taina Brown she/hers (36:13)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:14)
that. Like cause it can be really easy when you're watching this kind of stuff or seeing suffering happening, even if it's in your own neighborhood.
Or like going through grief, you lose somebody you love. I think anybody who's been through any level of that kind of grief or watching or having sadness around you or whatever where you start to feel this like, I'm not allowed to feel happy. I can't feel joy. And when it
Taina Brown she/hers (36:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:32)
starts to sneak up on you, there's this guilt that comes up around that. And it's the reminder that no, like I can. I can still laugh
Taina Brown she/hers (36:38)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:38)
and I can still have a good time. And not only can I, I need to. Because otherwise, what's the point? right.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:41)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:43)
Then you really get into the nihilism of what's the point. Because if you're living a life with no
Taina Brown she/hers (36:46)
Yeah, yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (36:47)
joy, what is the point?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:48)
yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good point because I definitely see that a lot in myself where it's like, okay, I'm not like, it's not necessarily like I'm not necessarily like doom scrolling over things, but then I withhold pleasure for myself, right? Because I'm just like, like I feel bad for enjoying things sometimes and it's like, but that's why
like that's unnecessary, that's so unnecessary, like that doesn't prove anything.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:17)
Yeah. It's as if I love that because it's as if you're suffering. Cause I think we see I see this sometimes with grief, where I think people
Taina Brown she/hers (37:24)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:25)
feel this feeling, and whether they're consciously aware that they're doing it or not, it feels like there is this like, I have to, my sadness proves how much I loved that person. Right. Or in this case,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:34)
my sadness proves how much I care about climate change,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:37)
or my sadness proves how much I care about all these people who have died.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:41)
And it's like,
Those things are not, they do not have to be true. You can care and have love someone or care about the planet or care about people and still also say, and my joy matters too. My
Taina Brown she/hers (37:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:52)
joy matters. it makes me think because last time we added a little additum about Dolly Parton's passing, but we didn't talk
Taina Brown she/hers (37:57)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:57)
about it deeply. And I just want to mention like I started my newsletter with it too, the her quote about like if you want I see she said something along the lines of people always want the rainbows, but they don't want the rain. And you're
Taina Brown she/hers (38:07)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:08)
gonna ha if you want the rainbows, you have to have the rain.
And it's just
Taina Brown she/hers (38:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:10)
that reminder of like these things coexist, right? The rainbows, we
Taina Brown she/hers (38:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:14)
get the rainbows because of the rain. And I don't want to try and like draw make silver linings and things because that sucks.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:20)
But I will say, like, I don't want it to take natural disaster well climate change disasters like this to make us make change. And perhaps that's the thing that does it. And I'm not saying it's going to, but I it certainly makes it harder for people to continue to stick their fingers in their ear.
And pretend as if
Taina Brown she/hers (38:36)
Mm-hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (38:37)
things aren't happening. And so, you know, maybe the rainbows are the as much as like, again, in no way trying to minimize any of it. But if the rainbows out of the climate change disasters that we see are that it leads to actual change that saves humanity, then
Taina Brown she/hers (38:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:53)
there's like the rain is not n I I still wish I hadn't had to get wet. Like I none
of us want
Taina Brown she/hers (38:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:59)
the rain.
But I do hope we can find some rainbows collectively, I guess is what I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (39:02)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:02)
saying. Like, can we try to collectively work to find the rainbows out of this? Because otherwise, what's the point? Going back to my nihilism, like if, and again, the joy, if we aren't finding the joy, if we aren't using these things as fuel for fire to make change and to also live lives that better reflect the value set that we have and that shows that we care about
Taina Brown she/hers (39:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:21)
each other, what's the fucking point? Like that's
Taina Brown she/hers (39:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:23)
that those are the rainbows, and we gotta create them. I
Taina Brown she/hers (39:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:27)
I love dollars.
Miss her so it's so wild.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:29)
Yeah. Yeah. I finally
watched 9 to 5 over the weekend. I'd never seen it. I'd never seen it.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:33)
You've never watched that movie? Talk about like, okay, again. All
white ladies, it was what it was at the time, right? I get I get that part, so intersectionality is not really there. However, those were some badass boss bitches.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:47)
It
was not what I thought it was about gonna be about at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:50)
No. It's crazy, isn't it?
Taina Brown she/hers (39:52)
It's so unhinged. I was like,
Becky Mollenkamp (39:55)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:55)
they made this movie? Who, somebody greenlit this? Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:58)
In in like nineteen eighty whatever it was, three or something? Like it was a l yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:03)
I was like, the studio approved this? What? What? Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:06)
I know you have to wonder how. How did that slip through the crack? Frankly, I don't
even know that they would get away with making the movie now, right? Like it
Taina Brown she/hers (40:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:13)
it's not politically correct enough because it's, you know, I don't know. What is what's the mis Miss Andry, the thing that men always are accusing me of. I'm like, fuck you. No.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:23)
Yeah. Never mind the fact
that Miss Andrea isn't a real thing, but whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:27)
Precisely, exactly. yes. And you know, also, just quickly on Dolly, I've been seeing all these old photos of her posted, and you just forget, like, because I think if you're of a certain age, which is most of us, because I mean only her oldest fans remember the very much older people remember her from her earlier years. Most of us think
Taina Brown she/hers (40:42)
When she was young, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:43)
of her sort of nine to five and beyond and
Taina Brown she/hers (40:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:46)
particular look. She was just knock-out, drop dead, gorgeous. In her earlier, like early twenties before.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:51)
Gorgeous. With those dimples?
Becky Mollenkamp (40:55)
And again, the work, like I no
Taina Brown she/hers (40:56)
my gosh.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:57)
criticism. I think whatever she need wanted to do, she had the money to do it,
Taina Brown she/hers (40:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:00)
she had the whatever, it's all that's fine. But like you just look at her in her raw state, she was just gorgeous. Gorgeous. And also,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:08)
I do hate a world which makes anyone that gorgeous think that they don't look gorgeous. But cause I saw somebody say, like, what the hell must Jolene be like?
Taina Brown she/hers (41:16)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (41:16)
for anybody to leave this
woman, right? Of course somebody was like, Well, I'm pretty sure she's like got, you know, flaming locks of Auburn hair describing what she looked
Taina Brown she/hers (41:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:24)
like, but eyes of Emerald Green. I'm like, you would have to be something else to be like, you know, I think I'm gonna leave Dolly for Jolene. I mean, that woman was stunning, stunning. And also
Taina Brown she/hers (41:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:33)
just again, someone reached out to me in a group I'm in and asked me what I meant by if white women that Dolly Parton was proof that if white women wanted to, they would. And they're like, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain it? So I explained like
Taina Brown she/hers (41:44)
Was it a white
woman?
Becky Mollenkamp (41:45)
Of I mean, come on. Of course.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:48)
I'm just curious, I'm just curious.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:49)
of course. I and she was younger. And listen, I had a lovely conversation today with Faith Clark for our my other podcast, Yes and Otherwise. And we were talking about having more care and compassion and curiosity for people who are farther behind us in the journey. And that's an area where I'm trying to work because I can be a bit judgy pants. I know you can be a judgy bitch too. Your words. and so it's easy for me to be like.
But so I and I was
Taina Brown she/hers (42:10)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (42:11)
very nice in my response. I sent my I I just sent her something I had s shared in my newsletter talking about Miss Dolly was the first person in her family to graduate high school. She did not go to college. She came from a very rural area. She was
Taina Brown she/hers (42:23)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:23)
born extremely poor. Like
Not like white people poor, like real poor, right? Like I think sometimes people
Taina Brown she/hers (42:29)
Like, more and more, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:30)
who are white who have privilege like to think they were poor, but they weren't really poor. No, she was born like
Taina Brown she/hers (42:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:34)
poor, poor, poor, poor, poor. and she's from a red state in a in a rural part of it, like there she had every marker for what it should be to be a MAGA woman, right? Like
Taina Brown she/hers (42:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:46)
she's in an industry filled with those kinds of folks, you know, whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:49)
She gave she intentionally never became a billionaire.
She had every chance to be a billionaire repeatedly and continued
Taina Brown she/hers (42:54)
Mm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:55)
to give away money so she wouldn't be. She gave away over $600 million in her lifetime. $600 million. Now, granted, I want to live in a system where nobody has that much money to give away. We should not should be a massive. But at
Taina Brown she/hers (43:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:07)
least the point being, she could have kept that. She could have hoarded that. Well, she didn't. She
Taina Brown she/hers (43:09)
She did something different. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:11)
was on record supporting Black Lives Matter when people were telling her that she shouldn't, because it wasn't politically smart within in her industry.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:20)
She was
supporting, and this I learned about her after her death. I didn't know this one. She was helping people with transition funds back in like the 1980s, late 80s, early 90s. Her employees
Taina Brown she/hers (43:30)
wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:31)
at Dollywood. She would help them with funding their trans their transitions before anybody was even talking about transgender issues.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:39)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:39)
Like nobody even like, not nobody, but like in the maths in the world.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:42)
But it wasn't in the
mainstream, yeah. In the conservative mainstream.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:44)
It certainly wasn't something that most people who are not trans themselves or loving
a trans person would know about. So like just she is proof that it when you lead with love, when you leave with your heart, when you leave with lead with curiosity, none of the other stuff matters.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:59)
And it's and hate is a choice. It's a choice.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:02)
And that's what I told this girl today. I like, you know, it's it
Taina Brown she/hers (44:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:04)
hate's a choice. And and anyone who thinks that it's not, when people I see people saying racism's a mental illness or whatever, like, no, it's a choice. It's a choice.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:12)
It's a choice, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:13)
And Dolly ha is a is proof positive that it's a choice because she had every other otherwise, other than her actively choosing not to show up that way, she would be like every other person who probably came out of whatever that little town is she was from, which I would imagine most of
Taina Brown she/hers (44:28)
Gatlinburg.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:29)
them.
Well no, she was actually from a little town even outside of it. Starts with an S. Yeah. I mean sh that's she mostly like like lived S severe that's it. I was gonna say several yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:32)
Really? wait, I severeville. I think it's severeville Yeah, I've been there. Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (44:40)
That's where she's actually from. I guess where her little patchwork of many colours or whatever the name of that song
Taina Brown she/hers (44:44)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:44)
is. but anyway, okay. I d I just feel like we could talk about Dolly for years 'cause I just think she's such a great study into
Taina Brown she/hers (44:48)
No, could because she has such a
just such a full life.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:52)
Beautiful. and like a talking about people who aren't mothers but mother, people who like
Taina Brown she/hers (44:57)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:58)
ch legacy without having to parent, like I just
Taina Brown she/hers (45:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:01)
enduring love. What it looks like
Taina Brown she/hers (45:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:04)
too to like in in a wor in an industry where love doesn't last like that and like just staying out of all the fodder and I don't know, just just beautiful. And again,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:13)
I hate to lionize white women.
generally, because we rarely do that to the same degree with black women after they die. This is a lovely, I think, sort of exception to that rule in that I've seen so many black women also just really pray singing her praises. Yeah. And I think
Taina Brown she/hers (45:28)
Yeah, yeah everybody's mourning her. Everybody's mourning her for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:33)
for that very reason of just I think black women appreciated that they know that like she she could have and she didn't. So yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:40)
Not that we should
Taina Brown she/hers (45:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:41)
be rewarded for that, by the way. Just speaking as though I went, I guess I'm suddenly like, wait a minute, like and we should not really but
Taina Brown she/hers (45:46)
It's not just that she could
have, but she didn't, but she did other things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:50)
Why, not only didn't, but actively very much worked on it too. Anyway.
All right. Listen, as always, I'm gonna leave this conversation feeling better than when I came into it.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:59)
Good! Good.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:00)
Thank you. and I hope other people are too. And I think I'm today I'm gonna try and remember joy and think about what's one thing I can do today for some joy while also staying off the socials today.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you need a break.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:13)
I have been, just to just to be clear, like I this w hit a fever pitch for me a couple of days ago and now I've been the last like forty eight hours coming down from the like deepest or coming up from the deepest wells of my nihilism. So I am feeling better, but it's always nice to talk about it. So thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:28)
Yeah, anytime.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:30)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.