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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:29:20
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Quinn Duffy, a longtime game director whose work on titles includes Relic Entertainment's Company of Heroes and Microsoft's Age of Empires. He's shaped how millions of players see military campaigns in conflicts dating back to the Middle Ages through to the Second World War. In today's episode, we talk with Quinn about the challenge of weaving history into virtual worlds.
00:00:29:22 - 00:00:48:08
Speaker 1
How has onsite battlefield visits inform authenticity in the games that he directs, and why? Games can spark curiosity, connection and deeper learning about history for players of all ages. Quinn, thanks for sharing your passion for storytelling and the leadership that you bring every day to the gaming industry and to our listeners. Thanks. Retaining.
00:00:54:09 - 00:01:18:15
Speaker 1
Welcome to Story Behind the Stone, where we talk service, sacrifice and stories, bringing you the most interesting people in the field of commemoration and veteran causes. I'm Ryan, along with Matthew Cudmore, and we are with Memory Anchor, a company dedicated to changing the way the world remembers as we use technology for good. Today we are joined by Quintin Duffy, and he's a game developer and director.
00:01:18:15 - 00:01:25:04
Speaker 1
And this is just kind of a different angle to commemorations. And so I'd like to welcome you to the show. Quinn.
00:01:25:09 - 00:01:27:14
Speaker 2
Thanks, Ryan. Yeah. It's, it's great to be here.
00:01:27:15 - 00:01:45:15
Speaker 1
Quinn. It's great to have you on the show. You know, you've spent, a couple decades working in games, game design and direction. You've touched a lot of lives with your games and covered a lot of pieces of history. Can you walk us back to that lightning bolt moment that you knew that you wanted to get into game development.
00:01:45:15 - 00:02:08:23
Speaker 2
Actually confessed to not knowing I wanted to do game development. I sort of stumbled into it accidentally. Actually, in Calgary, I used to live in Calgary, and a friend of mine was doing some writing for a game studio in Calgary and is working on, sort of, virtual reality stuff. And he needed kind of a subcontractor. And we had been friends for years of playing, tabletop games and that kind of thing.
00:02:08:23 - 00:02:27:21
Speaker 2
And so, I started doing some writing for this company called, called Virtual Games and in Calgary and then sort of turned into a little bit of design and a little bit of level design. And, you know, design at the time was sort of a you were a jack of all trades kind of thing. And then I realized they really in joyed it.
00:02:27:22 - 00:02:46:04
Speaker 2
I tried to start at my own company at one point doing doing a little like, web browser type games. And it felt like maybe I was just six months too early for the giant web explosion of the internet. And six months later, maybe I maybe I'd be a, you know, a billionaire on an island somewhere. I don't, I don't know, but yeah, that's sort of where it started.
00:02:46:04 - 00:03:05:14
Speaker 2
I kind of accidentally, ended up in it and was just from on the strength of things like tabletop games and, and the kind of the imagination that that, that I promoted. I ended up visiting Vancouver. Yeah. My brother was out here. He knew this, a guy named Alex Garden who had started up, relic and I went in to visit the studio.
00:03:05:14 - 00:03:28:07
Speaker 2
And as I sort of remembered, I, I was talking to a few people, like, I came home back to Calgary, got an email Sunday night saying I was hired, and it didn't. Again, I didn't really know I was really interviewing. So that's but that's sort of the way things things were in the, in the 90s. And I ended up moving out to Vancouver, and I spent more than 23 years at relic and, you know, working on strategy games.
00:03:28:07 - 00:03:41:19
Speaker 2
Company heroes, I think most prominently is is probably the my favorite development experience at relic was, I was building this company, Heroes Games, and here we are in 2025. And, and, still in games.
00:03:41:21 - 00:03:50:00
Speaker 1
Tell us a little bit about the scale of what you worked on. Spent some time at Microsoft as well, but love to give listeners a sense of what it is that you, put together.
00:03:50:03 - 00:04:14:01
Speaker 2
I started, you know, working on strategy games, kind of the heyday of strategy. Towards the end of the 90s, I worked on the first homeworld. I worked on a game called Impossible Creatures, and then the studio was pitching this World War Two game, kind of based on Saving Private Ryan and Band two brothers. And we we really wanted to bring something more experiential to the genre.
00:04:14:03 - 00:04:36:23
Speaker 2
I think the arts games tended to be very, very numbers and very analytical and sort of rote and, you know, specific build orders and you had to build this thing within the second. We wanted to do something a little bit different, kind of leveraging relics, you know, our direction and, and our ability to put a lot of presentation on top of the strategy games.
00:04:36:23 - 00:04:57:02
Speaker 2
And so I worked on on gameplay systems a lot on company heroes around sort of real military tactics, like turning tactics into abstractions that the players would understand and then be able to actually use them in-game and flanking and hover and these kinds of things that that you see in small unit tactics, really wanted to capture that and build that into the into the game.
00:04:57:02 - 00:05:11:19
Speaker 2
World War Two was front of mind with, you know, Saving Private Ryan several years before. And A Band of Brothers was around the time we were launching, and there were all of the Medal of Honor games and those kinds of things. So it was, you know, it was a big and interesting market. Company heroes came out in 2006.
00:05:11:19 - 00:05:33:15
Speaker 2
It's still being played. It did extremely well, was one of the highest rated strategy games of all time. And I think just reinforced the legacy it at relic of the, you know, this kind of unique takes on strategy. And I loved it. And I did Company Heroes too, as the game director went to the Eastern Front, very different history, which was, a real challenge from from a number of levels.
00:05:33:15 - 00:05:52:14
Speaker 2
And then my final game at relic, you know, after a few others in between, there was Age of Empires four. So again, history, strategy games and trying to bring, you know, a little bit of historicity to the subject and, you know, capture some of the reality of history. So we did a lot of documentary type features for that game just to to really try to bring history to the forefront.
00:05:52:14 - 00:06:13:19
Speaker 1
Matt and I, we have like inner gamers, to us and we historically have actually played the Company of Heroes games from the beginning. Meeting you was a real treat to just see someone who's worked on that and brought that to life. Did you want to tell us a little bit about how you brought that history in, and what were some of the things you learned or paid attention to?
00:06:13:19 - 00:06:28:08
Speaker 2
I've always been interested in history, in military history. I had my tonsils out when I was five, and I made my mum go to the library and get me this book on tanks so I could have it in in my mind, in my recovery after getting my tonsils out. So, so, I mean, I remember like going back that far.
00:06:28:09 - 00:06:45:17
Speaker 2
Like I think I grew up with the world at war and stories from uncles and great uncles and, you know, when I was young, maybe a few years older than you guys, you know, I was born, like less than 30 years after the end of World War two. It wasn't that removed from our from our, you know, our experiences.
00:06:45:17 - 00:07:03:13
Speaker 2
My grandfather was not an old man. You know, when I when I was young. And so I think there was a lot of interest and respect from that sort of early age. But a lot of what I brought as tools for game design came from came from books. Initially, I read a lot, and so I, I tried to go outside the typical Hollywood references.
00:07:03:13 - 00:07:28:20
Speaker 2
And I mean, there's plenty of Hollywood references in our game. So, you know, don't get me wrong, you know, a lot of what I tried to pull in was from, from books and, and, and just immersing, immersing myself in the reading, in the words of the veterans, in the, the people who experienced combat. And so I knew that, that one of the ways I wanted to bring a little bit of authenticity to the experience was to actually visit these, these locations, especially for company heroes to, you know, set on the eastern front.
00:07:28:20 - 00:07:48:23
Speaker 2
And so we did a big trip and went to, Saint Petersburg or Leningrad to kind of capture the initial for several months of the war and the Eastern Front and multiple years of this, of the siege of Leningrad, and kind of get a sense of the scale and scope of that of that conflict. Then we ended that trip in Berlin.
00:07:49:01 - 00:08:12:08
Speaker 2
And on the allow heights and then, you know, the Polish, German border and Custer and, and places like that, which was, you know, the end of the war in Europe with the, the Soviets and the and the Germans. It was a chance to kind of walk the, the battlegrounds. You know, I know you guys have done it, but there's something quite incredible about about walking a battlefield even decades after there's a something unique about it.
00:08:12:10 - 00:08:32:19
Speaker 2
Imagine that experience on the ground that you're, you know, you're walking on. There were technical things that we could see. The texture of, of the wood on, on, on Russian buildings. And then there was the, there was the experience of just being there, you know, on the and the battlefields around Leningrad. Soon you have no heights and, and what the ground looked like and how it felt.
00:08:32:19 - 00:08:58:22
Speaker 2
And we were there in February to kind of experience sort of the winter. I think it just helped us build a more authentic experience. Having been to those those locations, we carried it not to go out too long, but we carried that into the Age of Empires as well. We visited, you know, southern England. We went to Hastings and Portsmouth and, and, you know, Port Chester and Dover Castle and, you know, we went to all these locations and we were sort of scouting for, for stuff.
00:08:59:00 - 00:09:18:17
Speaker 2
And then the next year we went to northern France, and I got to check a couple of things off my list, which was to visit con and, and Salles and, and see the medieval history there, but also to go to Juno and the war memorials and the and the cemeteries in Normandy, and to experience that was just staggering.
00:09:18:23 - 00:09:40:09
Speaker 1
I'm sure your February experience kind of informed a bit like as you're playing the strategy, there used to be cold exposure for your troops and stuff. So that level of detail and actually being true to the history really comes out in that game. And you can see the care that was there, and you can see even some of these other games kids are playing now, like war Thunder.
00:09:40:09 - 00:09:52:10
Speaker 1
And they're learning about equipment and, and a whole different way. What is potentially the opportunity that comes from gaming strategy games and stuff for teaching?
00:09:52:13 - 00:10:24:14
Speaker 2
It's an incredible tool just because I think it engages your faculties in a slightly different in a different way. I think it might help reinforce certain ways of learning and certain ways of experiencing things. There's something about the interactivity and being able to immerse yourself a little bit in, in a piece of history. I mean, they're using these, these, games for, for all kinds of therapy tools, you know, I mean, soldiers coming back and as a PTSD therapy, for instance, because it allows them to kind of relive and decompress the experience they, they went through.
00:10:24:14 - 00:10:45:19
Speaker 2
And and not to say that our strategy games were like that, but if we could spark some curiosity, if a, if a player could read a little snippet or if they go online and they have a debate and they, they actually they start to look up some piece of information or read about a piece of history and, and start connecting dots, based on their experience on in the game.
00:10:45:19 - 00:11:06:04
Speaker 2
I think that's a, you know, an incredibly powerful experience. So we, you know, we get a lot of people who, who really know their history. And we get a lot of, you know, we get a lot of feedback or occasionally a historical because it's because it's a game and we need to deal with balance and everything. But the intent and the focus on authenticity was real and heartfelt.
00:11:06:07 - 00:11:19:18
Speaker 1
Tell us a little bit about what goes into making games as big as these. These are big teams, big budgets and big themes to tackle. How do you even weave a campaign narrative around such big topics?
00:11:19:19 - 00:11:41:23
Speaker 2
It is. And, and, I mean, the team, you know, you talked about the team that's an absolutely critical part. And having a well-functioning team and people who kind of understand why they're doing something. And it took years and years to develop some of the tools that I now use to help, you know, build vision and break things down so that people understand what they're building towards.
00:11:41:23 - 00:11:58:07
Speaker 2
You know, what what they're contributing to and having a clear, you know, a clear vision as much as possible is is really what helps keep a team kind of on track and self guiding to a degree. They know what the they know what the constraints are and that that really helps. You're not sort of chasing people all over the world trying to rein them in.
00:11:58:07 - 00:12:32:20
Speaker 2
Once you've done a couple of games as well and you've had that practice and you know how people work together and people know what they're building towards, that clarity becomes really, really, really, really key to to building these games. But yeah, that vision is it starts with a lot of work. It takes a lot of research. It takes a lot of, meetings and discussions and, and collaboration and wordsmithing and like, there's all these things that go into trying to, to build a cohesive vision, you know, maybe, maybe even before you start pre-production, just to try and narrow down what it is you're going to build and, and, and.
00:12:32:20 - 00:12:50:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, and you got to, you got to figure out how to keep 100 people in line around, building one of these games because they're there. Yeah, they can be substantial. And all games would be small potatoes these days. Like, some of these teams have 800 or 1000 people on them. They're multiple studios all over the world contributing to, you know, the call of duties and, and, and those kind of games these days.
00:12:50:18 - 00:12:57:17
Speaker 1
You must leave a lot on the cutting room floor. Do you have to do a lot of editing? Is there anything that you wish that would have been included in either of those series?
00:12:57:22 - 00:13:20:15
Speaker 2
No, I think more often than not, it's probably tried to do too much games of this kind of challenge, especially when you're doing sequels that the the audience expectations are that you will do everything you did in the first game, plus all this new cool stuff. There's this habit over time that to get bigger and more complex, and that's not necessarily great for the player or the audience.
00:13:20:16 - 00:13:43:13
Speaker 2
Sometimes it's kind of like, how do we how do we build expectations around sort of simplifying and making a game experience that is isn't or loading the players to get to a point in games and, and in other art forms where there's nothing left to remove. I think you've, you reach something perfect. So there's yeah, there's probably things I would I would do to simplify more than stuff.
00:13:43:13 - 00:14:00:05
Speaker 2
I would add. There's a lot of like things I, you know, you regret not doing maybe certain directions like the story for Company Heroes two, which we did on the on the Eastern Front, was not the story we wanted to do, which I really regret not being able to fight that battle a little bit, a little bit more.
00:14:00:06 - 00:14:14:16
Speaker 2
You know, we, we use some of the concepts that, that we were thinking about for company heroes to an Age of Empires four in terms of that past, present kind of idea. And so that's something I sort of wish I'd done. I wish it hadn't been left on the cutting room floor, so to speak.
00:14:14:16 - 00:14:17:15
Speaker 1
What have you learned? Makes a great game.
00:14:17:16 - 00:14:45:23
Speaker 2
You know, games that I've worked on and games that I enjoy is that their gameplay mechanics have context. Things don't feel super arbitrary or, contrived, you know, like like that was one thing that you know, about about company heroes is that most of the game mechanics were derived from reference and, you know, obviously abstracted. But, you know, we we had different kinds of tank armor and we had directional cover, you know, so soldiers were protected from one direction, but not not the other.
00:14:45:23 - 00:15:15:03
Speaker 2
And that encouraged flanking maneuver. And so those, those mechanics were contextual to the reference and to combat. And, and I think when you can marry mechanics context and then an attention to detail on presentation, you get this really sort of holistic experience like I think how many heroes, you know, without the the soundscape, without the effects, without the animation wouldn't have sort of stood the test of time.
00:15:15:03 - 00:15:39:01
Speaker 2
I think that it has just because of that. That presentation was maybe unlike any at the time. Right. We we really focused on delivering that kind of that sort of kinetic violence and, and, sound and sort of immersing the players on the, on the battlefield. There was a story comes to mind when we showed company heroes at, E3, which is a big gaming expo.
00:15:39:02 - 00:15:58:10
Speaker 2
I think this would have been 2005. We did a theater presentation of it, and we had big subwoofers, and we showed an engine like, wasn't the cut scene? It was actually in the game engine. It was the combat scene. And stuff blowing up and buildings collapsing and the whole bit. And, there were a few audience members, gamers in the front row.
00:15:58:10 - 00:16:18:12
Speaker 2
It came up after they were they were deaf and they you wanted to say that this was the first thing that they had been in, where they could feel the sound that's having, like a physical impact on people. And I think that's something that games can really help deliver that sort of, that sort of immersive ness and that, that felt really awesome.
00:16:18:16 - 00:16:24:01
Speaker 1
What do you think the future of gaming is going to start looking like with some of these, emerging technologies?
00:16:24:01 - 00:16:42:05
Speaker 2
I still think the future is bright. I think what we have with things like AI is a is a tool that a lot of people don't really know how to use yet. And, you know, what's that added? You have a hammer. Every problem looks like a nail, whatever that phrase is. And I think I right now is a is a bit of a hammer and a blunt instrument.
00:16:42:05 - 00:17:03:03
Speaker 2
And, you know, my sense is that that is then given in its uses, like how do we do things more quickly, more efficiently and more more cheaply. But it's a very blunt instrument to deliver against those things, like against that mandate. Part of that isn't at better quality or at equal quality. I don't know if I will ever be able to do what a human artist can do, or what a human sound composer can do.
00:17:03:03 - 00:17:30:19
Speaker 2
It doesn't have life experience, it doesn't have frames of reference. It doesn't seem to be able to make logic leaps between a sound and an emotion or a visual and, memory. Like, you know, the way a person can. So I, you know, I think at some point there will be ways of using it, but especially in testing and iteration and, you know, you run through at 10,000 versions of this game and see if there are any imbalances, you know, are there ways that we can use this as a tool?
00:17:30:19 - 00:17:48:03
Speaker 2
But I think as a as a creative tool, it's deeply flawed right now, I think. And you see certain games that it that have been using it that are just like weird and offputting and strange and, you know, I think there's there's going to be a backlash. I think at some point we'll find some balance and how to use this as a tool for development.
00:17:48:03 - 00:17:54:19
Speaker 2
But right now it's just it's there's a novelty to it and it's being forced into parts of the industry where I don't think it's suitable.
00:17:54:19 - 00:17:56:23
Speaker 1
What does the future looking like for you? What's next for you?
00:17:57:03 - 00:18:12:13
Speaker 2
More games I hope I've I'd love to do. I'd love to do a couple more. Looks like I'll be off on a bit of an adventure to Europe to work on something new. You know, I think the kind of games I make, I've ended up a bit typecast, you know, in the industry and Europe still enjoys strategies. They still make strategy games.
00:18:12:13 - 00:18:37:22
Speaker 2
There's a lot of them are built there. And so I'm going to end it there for for at least a little while. I love the concept of of building games. You know I think playing games is cool. But there's a, there's a special thrill in actually making something and working with the team and building something creative and the kind of daily problem solving and all the challenges that come up in game development, I think is very few jobs where you can have that experience on a on a daily basis.
00:18:37:22 - 00:18:50:19
Speaker 2
And I, I really love that. So I'm looking forward to to more of that. And, you know, maybe it'll I'll be in a place where there's thousands and thousands of years of history just lying around. And so that'll be kind of kind of fun to see. I think.
00:18:50:19 - 00:19:08:22
Speaker 1
Too, I love the fact that you continue to look at that history and integrate that. I think it's just such a unique way to tell a story. So, Quinn, thank you so much for bringing us along that journey with you. We're going to be in touch as you move forward. And I know there's probably a lot of things you have to keep on your hat right now.
00:19:08:23 - 00:19:18:10
Speaker 1
But again, thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insights. If anybody wants to get in touch or learn a little bit more about what you're doing. Quinn, where do they go? What do they look you up?
00:19:18:12 - 00:19:36:13
Speaker 2
Quinn Duffy on on LinkedIn. Probably the easiest way. Currently I'm on blue Sky as well, but, I'm mostly a reply guy on there, so drop me a line on on LinkedIn. I'll be updating what I'm up to. I think being being in Europe and being far away from friends and family, maybe I'll, I'll, try and start up a little YouTube thing just to share, some of my experiences or something.
00:19:36:13 - 00:19:37:08
Speaker 2
So we'll see.
00:19:37:10 - 00:19:39:07
Speaker 1
That's great. Well thanks again, Quinn.
00:19:45:08 - 00:19:58:09
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:19:58:09 - 00:19:59:14
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.