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Welcome to The Culture Code podcast. On this podcast, you’ll learn how to grow, shape, and sustain a high-performance culture with the CEO of LEADx, Kevin Kruse. From designing and delivering highly effective leadership development programs, to measuring and improving the employee experience, you will understand what it takes to cultivate a thriving company culture. Through interviews with Chief People Officers, deep dives into key topics, and recordings of our invite-only community sessions, we bring you cutting-edge, data-backed insights from the most desirable companies to work for in the world.
Kruse: Hello, everyone! I'm Kevin Kruse, and welcome back to Culture Code. I'm so excited because our guest today is Deputy, the Chief People Officer of Pinterest. Christine, welcome! And where are you joining us from today?
Deputy: Thank you, Kevin. It's great to be here. I'm actually joining you from sunny and warm Seattle. I was going to say it's the rainy capital of the world, but not today.
Kruse: I just heard Christine, it rains more in Nashville, and I had to Google that to confirm. It's true! Why does Seattle have such a bad reputation for cloudy, rainy days when Nashville is even worse? It's a mystery to me.
Deputy: Absolutely. No, actually, it's very nice here. I know people think it's really cloudy and rainy all the time, but it's a beautiful place to be.
Kruse: I love it. So let's get started now. I almost feel funny asking this question because, look, everybody's heard of Pinterest, and it seems like everybody is on Pinterest. For those who might not be familiar with Pinterest how big is your organization and in plain language, what do you do?
Deputy: Well, we have about 3,500 employees in offices around the globe, and they support our mission to bring everyone the inspiration to create a life they love. People come to Pinterest to visualize their plans and make them a reality. They're here to discover the best ideas, decide on a direction, and we hope to turn that into real life and do something different. Our aspiration is really that folks feel more inspired, positive, and excited when they leave our platform.
Kruse: That's great. And Christine, I know we're going to talk later about flexible work options and other things. But I'm assuming the headquarters is not in Seattle, right?
Deputy: That's correct. Well, we have offices in a lot of different cities, both in the US and around the globe, as I said. But our headquarters is actually based in San Francisco.
Kruse: Fantastic. That's what I thought. How would you describe your company culture in just a few words?
Deputy: You know, Pinterest has a really amazing culture. First, we're really focused on pinners, and to be honest, I think every employee is a pinner as well. We're pinners first, and we try to build things that are truly extraordinary. There's a real sense of connection, relationship, and belonging in the culture, which I love, and it's what drew me. I was really attracted to that when I met folks from the organization and joined the company. Another important aspect of our culture is that we're very focused on creating a positive online environment. We want our Pinners to feel safe, welcomed, and respected as individuals.
Kruse: Yeah, it's probably, in my humble opinion, the healthiest social network out there. I mean, with so many things to be concerned about these days, I love that Pinterest remains a positive network. Now, I'm curious, when you're referring to people who use Pinterest, you call them pinners. Is that also an affectionate term for your colleagues, or do you call yourselves something else?
Deputy: We actually talk about PIN employees, so you'll hear a lot of PIN puns. We leverage that quite a bit. You know, it's about having fun and creating a really positive and energized atmosphere. Even in our offices, you'll see various inspirations, visuals, and different kinds of fun spaces.
Kruse: I’m always fascinated. It's almost like a guaranteed sign, a strong culture when there's an identity, you know. What are some of the ways you foster or sustain this culture? Any unique rituals or traditions related to your culture?
Deputy: Well, I mean, we have a very strong sense of values. And so those are sort of embedded in everything we do. And we actually have a really cool, unique ritual that I'll share with you. That, I think, is very specific to pinterest. It's called Nitcon. Nitcon, is this opportunity that we take? We've done it a couple of different ways as we've gone through covid. But it started out as a 2 day session where we brought all of our employees together, our Pin employees together, and gave them an opportunity to sort of live the Pinterest site in real life. What that looks like is all of our employees volunteer to share or teach something they're really passionate about, and employees can sign up for hundreds of different classes, everything from tequila tasting to cooking Malaysian cuisine to creating the perfect latte art. We actually even had somebody teach how to land a jet on an aircraft carrier. These are just ways we're sharing our individuality, our personality with each other. But it's also about how we bring that Pinterest site to life in an environment where we can all be together and connect, create those connections.
Kruse: The next time you have one of those, I will volunteer to teach how to make a great old fashioned. That would be my contribution to the event.
Deputy: That would be perfect – that's exactly the kind of class people sign up for. It’s a lot of fun.
Kruse: Now Christine, I’m not sure I heard the name of the event. Can you say that again?
Deputy: It's called Nitcon, you know, like we're knitting together all of these different individual personalities.
Kruse: That's great, you know. For 30 years I've been in this space, primarily focused on employee engagement. 70% of engagement is correlated to the manager, and front-line managers touch more employees than any other leadership group. What are some of the ways you develop your front-line managers?
Deputy: Yeah, we absolutely agree. I think you know that connection, that human connection is so, so important. We have a number of touchpoints with our managers. First and foremost, we host a monthly meeting where different topics and training are covered. We bring this group together – it includes people managers of every level – and we share information that they need to help support their teams successfully. All new managers receive training covering various aspects of their role, such as conducting performance reviews, providing feedback, managing change, building resilience, and compensation. We are also invested in the long-term success of our employees. So, we've introduced programs like "See Next," which is an accelerator program focused on the longer-term development of high potentials. This is a program we've partnered with many other Fortune 100 companies to build. It allows our employees and leaders to gain exposure to leaders from other industries, which we find really helpful as well.
Kruse: And you go a little deeper on that program because I haven't heard anything like that. So you've partnered up with some other organizations for this high potential program? Is it just? Is it for existing managers, people, or managers who are looking to make it to the next level? Or is it more like an emerging leader program?
Deputy: No, these are existing leaders, leaders of the organization that we believe, and they want to aspire to get to that next level? And you know, if you're developing people within your organization. They're going to get certain exposure, specific development around your industry, the capabilities, the way you develop them. But when you give people an opportunity to be exposed to other industries and to network, to connect with folks that are having different problems or similar problems in different environments. It gives them a chance to grow and develop in an accelerated manner. As well. All of us who have leaders in that program are also participating in our own development. And so we're getting coaching and support around what they're hearing about so that we can partner and make sure that we're talking to our individual team leaders who are going through the program and helping them grow.
Kruse: Yeah, that's phenomenal. I haven't heard anything similar. You know, the power of cohort-based programs is the social connection right? And so let's suppose I do care about the content and all the great work the facilitators are doing. But now I have relationships with peers in other groups. You know that that helps my career. Now add new relationships at my level, you know, in other organizations. I mean, I imagine that's a very popular program.
Deputy: Absolutely. Yeah, we're, you know, learning every time as we go through it. And we'll give feedback to the team that manages the program so that we can continue to evolve it. As you know, as we see the results.
Kruse: Yeah. And, you know, I know a lot of culture. How do you solicit feedback from employees about the culture and their engagement (e.g., engagement or other surveys, town halls, ?)
Deputy: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the data is crucial because you want to balance both the conversations you're having with employees all the time, with the quantitative data from surveys. We have an annual survey that we conduct. We also have regular touchpoints. And, we do a lot of listening. When I say touchpoints, we use pulse surveys. But, we're also talking to individuals at different moments, like when they first join or when they're preparing to leave, to understand their reasons. We want our employees to feel encouraged to share their perspectives. So, we conduct voice surveys, and then we provide responses. We also have other resources for employees focused on listening, in addition to the surveys.
Kruse: Now, whenever I get two or more chief people officers together, they always end up discussing the frequency of pulse surveys. So how often are you conducting these surveys?
Deputy: We pulse. We conduct them nearly every quarter, but we don't include everybody each time. So we examine all surveying happening within the organization, which is essential because it's not solely the HR department that's seeking employee input. We analyze all of that data, considering who is being asked for feedback and when, and we strive to find a balance. Sometimes, we target a small subset of the population about a particular subject. However, on a quarterly basis, we generally seek insights from across the entire org.
Kruse: You've already mentioned many really cool programs. Related to culture, are there any special initiatives or results you’re most proud of?
Deputy: Well, we're really excited about how we've been managing our return to work post-Covid, and we're super excited about the PIN Flex program - and oops, yes. Anyway, I wanted to talk a little bit about that. I don't know if we want to go deep on that yet. I also wanted to share, you know, we've got a lot of programs to support our employees across all the life cycles of their career. So, we've introduced things like national paid leave, which is up to 20 weeks for all parents. We also have the 10-year anniversary of our Makeathon this year. And you know, that Makeathon has been something that has really driven innovation in our culture as well.
Kruse: How does the Makeathon work?
Deputy: The Makeathon is a session where we involve the entire organization. And so, it's not just, you know, I think, an engineering organization. They have these, you know, events. But we engage the entire organization to bring recommendations and ideas to the table around things that we can improve, whether it's a process, system, etc. We just finished one. They have three days. They form a team, pitch their idea, and then we have various judges who evaluate it. Afterward, we present awards. What we find is that not only do the groups that win awards move forward with some of their projects, but many of the other projects also find their way into our work in the next year, as we go into planning.
Kruse: Great innovation practice. And again, a wonderful byproduct is the engagement and the social connections. What book would you recommend that your colleagues read? (or podcast, video, etc.)
Deputy: That's a hard one. I'm, you know, a voracious reader. I love fiction. I'm not as much of a business book reader. I think there are, I would say, probably two books that I would bring forward. One is Gladwell's book, "Outliers," and the other one is probably "Educated," which I just loved. I would say "Outliers" is a really great read, and it really speaks to human performance. There's a lot that can translate to thinking about how people behave in organizations and how talent can be grown and developed. And then "Educated" is just an amazing story that gives you visibility into how life can be really challenging for many individuals, even in the US. It can be really tough for them to succeed, even if they have inherent ability and they have drive because they just haven't been provided certain opportunities. So, I think both of them are really, really inspiring.
Kruse: "Outliers." I've read the other one. I have, and I'll add it to my Kindle. What skill or behavior do you wish your employees did more of?
Deputy: Well, you know, I don't know if I would say skill or behavior. I think at Pinterest, we're really focusing on giving our employees tools to succeed and providing them with autonomy and agency to take advantage of what we're offering so that they can create a career that enables them to live the life they love. And I really think about when we're engaging employees, we want them to think about their career and connect it to their personal goals. So, I guess I would ask each employee to bring their aspirations to the table and think about how we can help them achieve their personal success and lean into that.
Kruse: That's great. Last question. What excites you the most about your company right now?
Deputy: Well, I would say I mentioned it a bit before, and that's the PIN Flex program. This is our approach to return to work post-Covid. You know, I think when you put a group of HR folks together, they will all speak to what you're doing in the workplace around how many days people have to be in. Our program is a direct response to what we heard from employees, and we launched the program about a year ago. It's a flex model that gives employees the freedom to work at home, work in an office, or from a virtual location. And when we do need to bring them together, we bring them together in person, in our offices. We think. And we're hearing our employees say they want flexibility. They want to be able to be productive. They want to be inspired and connected. But they want to do that on their own terms to manage their life. So, we've built this program. And what we're finding is that it's changing the way we hire. We're hiring people from a range of different backgrounds and geographies. And we're creating. We're developing employees and really driving productivity. Despite, I think, what a lot of folks may believe, we're seeing a high level of collaboration in this flexible model. I think it really empowers our employees. They feel supported. They connect around goals. It's not a rigid "you have to be in the office for these specific days." By doing that, we find that they feel respected and engaged.
Kruse: Yeah, it's probably the hottest topic in human capital, HR, right now. It's interesting because in the pandemic, so many people were doing remote work and making announcements that it was going to be remote only. I was saying, it's too early to tell how this is going to play out. And now, a couple of years later, we're seeing many companies say, oh, we know we said that, but sorry, you've got to get back to the office or get back to the office 3 days a week, including some companies. It's sort of ironic because our tools are helping us to be remote. And so now it's almost flipped, where it's rare to hear a company say, no, we're remote first, we're giving that flexibility, we're going to hire from wherever, it's not 3 days in. I mean, you can't speak for what anyone else is doing, but why do you think Pinterest has been able to figure out this remote-first culture, and others are saying we tried for 2 years, and it's not working, we need to come back? Like, what did you guys figure out?
Deputy: I think there are 2 pieces that are super important when you think about having that flexible environment where people are working from home and working from the office. First and foremost, there's a level of autonomy in giving employees the ability to come into the office whenever they want and have that space if that's how they want to work. So, I think that's super important. I've heard a lot of colleagues say, well, either you work in the office or you don't work in the office, that structure. But what we found is actually, we encourage people to come in. We want them to connect, but we want to do it on their terms. And then the second piece is this concept around making those high-fidelity moments valuable to the individuals. So, when you're bringing people in, you're using those opportunities to do creative work, collaborative work, planning work, building relationships. We're really encouraging our leaders to think about what's the work first and have the work lead your choice about bringing people in and being in that in-person environment, rather than having it be a more arbitrary rule. Because the worst-case scenario is you bring them in, and then they're doing video calls or they're not really engaging with each other. So then it feels like, "I commuted, but you didn't earn my commute."
Kruse: Those are the horror stories. They're like, okay, so I had to go in. So I go in, and I'm sitting in my office. Barely anybody's here, and I'm on Zoom all day long with people. I could have done this from home. So it's not making any sense. But what I love about that flexibility, and you said, like, we want people to have a place to come in. Because, look, if I'm more tenured in my career and maybe married with kids, you know, I might really care about flexibility and not want to go in that often. I know my oldest of 3, she's out of college, she's adulting. She moved to a new city, Orlando, and she's working for a company that's remote only. So, at her stage of life, she's saying, like, I don't have friends, I don't make friends. We're all on the Zoom calls, and then we go away and we kind of forget that when you're earlier in your career, of course there's the not getting mentored as often if you're not by your boss, whatever. But for a lot of people, there's a social aspect to work, at least for the extroverts. I'm an introvert, it wouldn't be me. But for my daughter, she's missing that. She would want to have an office to go into. So the fact that you let people have that choice is really powerful.
Deputy: Well, early in a career, and also early when you join the organization, we found those are pivotal moments. And so we're really leaning into when we're onboarding new folks, giving them opportunities to meet people in person and build those relationships. Because remember, when we went out in Covid and we went virtual, a lot of us had those relationships already. And so we were leveraging them. So we think about onboarding and early in a career. We're still evolving it, still trying to understand it. But what we want to do is have that thoughtful approach and then also be leaning into trust. When folks feel they're trusted by their leader, they're going to lean in and perform more effectively. And that's been proven in a lot of different places. So, this is a place where we're saying, this is an adult-to-adult relationship. We're going to trust you, and you're going to trust us. And when we ask you to come in, you're going to value that because we're going to make it worth your time. And we're going to know that when you're not physically in front of me, I can trust that you're doing great work.
Kruse: Yeah, I love it, Christine. You've dropped some value bombs for your colleagues and everyone in the space. Thanks for spending time with us today. Thanks for all the great work you're doing.
Deputy: Well, thank you. And it was really nice to have the conversation. I love talking about what we're doing at Pinterest. We're doing our best as we grow, and we're excited about the future.