Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Hear from experienced public affairs professionals, as our host Jack Talbot discusses the past, present and future of the profession with those who are shaping it.
From the days of posting letters to the future of technology-driven practices and AI insights, discover how the industry has changed, what its main focuses are now, and where it will be going.
00:01
Welcome to Now and Next in Public Affairs brought to you by Helio Intelligence. I'm Jack Talbot and I'm very, very happy to share today I'm not joined by one guest, I'm joined by two guests from RWE, David Hicklin and Alice Barrs. Welcome to the podcast. In terms of why we're here today, we're here to talk about the future of public affairs and
00:22
We're really, really keen to hear how your experience has evolved, what your thoughts are on the profession, and broadly speaking, where you think the profession is going to go. So
00:32
David, in terms of if we start with you, if that's OK, in terms of your experience, you've been at RWE for over four years. To the best of my knowledge, you've got quite a lot of experience in industry. So you've worked at the Labour Party, you've worked in the Commons itself for a long period of time, and you've also worked in the consultancy space. So I'm really, really interested to get under the skin of your thoughts on how the profession's evolved.
00:55
Sure. Well, I mean, starting with the dictionary definition, what is public affairs? Always useful to get some definitions out of the way to start with. The dictionary definition of public affairs is being that it's management of an organisation's relationship with government, policymakers and other stakeholders to influence and shape public policy and legislation that affects your organisation's ability to operate.
01:15
But for me, the more human definition is public affairs is about people, policy and process, right? It's the who, the what, the why and the how of decision making and how we influence and inform that. And really, you know, it's not about at all, in my view, backroom deals or, you know, agreements over long lunches or freebies and hospitalities, which we see reported in the press.
01:37
Actually, for me, it's about building relationships with people. It's about building connection. It's about trust. It's about using correct language and narrative and framing for what you're trying to achieve. It's about delivering expertise and insight. And it's how you deliver what you want to the right people at the right time in the right way. And that's, I think, is the constant truth of public affairs, which I wanted to just start with, because all these evolutionary changes and
02:06
sometimes revolutionary changes that we're seeing in public affairs at the moment are challenging or supporting or making you question that constant truth of speaking to people about policy in a way that resonates and gets you the impact and outcome that you want. And for me, I think, you know, for my time, which is getting on for 20 years involved in the UK political system in one form or another, we're really seeing the growth of authenticity, I think, is a big issue, which I'm happy to talk more about
02:35
later on. It's really the digital transformation is a huge, huge part of what's happened since my time getting involved in the sort of mid to late noughties. And that includes things like online exposure and we're seeing political and policy debates moving much more online, political activity itself shifting towards social media and outputs on new channels and platforms, the creation of echo chambers and how you deal with that.
03:04
We've got things like COVID and the increase in virtual working and activity. That's actually a big change for public affairs because a lot of activity happens online now rather than face-to-face. And if you think that public affairs is about building face-to-face engagement and relationships,
03:19
That might be harder because things are more virtual now. Actually, there's positives and negatives in my view. Virtual activity and engagement increases accessibility, broadens engagement, allows people who maybe aren't geographically close to where decision makers are to get involved in a debate. But maybe there's less opportunities for deepening that relationship as well. So I think there's challenges that we're seeing there, particularly since COVID, that have really put new questions in for how public affairs and political engagement takes place.
03:48
And then really the decline of traditional media, the growth in new channels and platforms, misinformation and countering that as well as part of your public affairs activity. And then the broader issues around reputational management for companies, how people view you, the exposure that you get. Maybe Alice can say a little bit more about that in her role. But that for me are the big three issues, I think. The authenticity point, digital transformation of how public affairs and the political debate operates,
04:14
and the challenges for organisations around managing their reputation and public facing positions. Thank you, David. There's so much for us to unpack there. And I think we'll definitely come back to digital transformation. We'll talk about AI later on in the episode. A very good segue to Alice, which is,
04:33
It'd be really, really good to hear your thoughts on what David said. I think it's really interesting to have some of your experience from a corporate affairs angle commenting on the future of the profession, because my understanding is that you've worked in government. You've also worked in the private sector for over a decade. So your role as head of corporate affairs, it'd be great to hear your thoughts on what David's opened up with.
04:56
Yeah, thanks, Jack. So yeah, firstly, I'd agree with everything that David has just said, and maybe just add to it. But before I do that, maybe just unpack the definition of public affairs a bit more, which David eloquently described. I do find the term sometimes public affairs a little bit misleading, because what it misses, and certainly in an organisation like RWE, for
05:15
For us and the team, you know, we're a big global organisation, lots of technologies, lots of interests. And we actually spend a lot of our time looking internally and managing people internally. And we kind of act as a filter, really, to bring together, you know, all the different interests, concerns that might that the business might have.
05:36
and try and prioritise that. And obviously, there's a danger in a big company like RWE that you just listen to the person that shouts the loudest. But
05:45
But we have an important role in trying to prioritise issue A versus issue B. Where does that sit in the priority stack? And if our country chair has five minutes with the minister, and very often that is really what it is sometimes, where do we place the emphasis on that precious political capital that we've got to deploy? So really, public affairs is a lot about internal, looking internally and managing people internally.
06:12
But as you said, Jack, my role is a bit broader than just public affairs. I align and strategically steer all the pillars of corporate affairs. So that's not just public affairs, that's also social media and digital, press, PR and events and internal comms. And I think it's really important that you think about public affairs in the wider context of those five pillars, because you cannot completely look at public affairs in isolation, because if you want to effectively communicate with your stakeholders,
06:41
Yes, you communicate with them bilaterally with a meeting or an event in Parliament, but you also need to be talking to them online. You also need to be talking to them through the press and with an event, etc. So really, it all has to be working hand in hand.
06:58
In terms of how it's evolved and my perspectives from my background. So, you know, my background is really different to Dave's, although we've ended up in the same place. So my background is I started my career as an economist in government. So my training is in economics and I spent time as a civil servant, critically appraising policy. And I would sit across the table from let's call them lobbyists.
07:21
and felt that I would be a better civil servant if I had experience in industry because only in doing so would I actually understand the sector that I was trying to create policy for.
07:32
So I took a secondment to industry. In the end, I've never left. So I was meant to go back to government, but stayed in the industry. And I've been in the industry for 10 years. David and I are different because I don't have that political background. I've never worked for an MP. I've never worked in Parliament. So my perspective is all about how is this going to stack up to the policymakers that are looking at this?
07:54
And for RWE and for anyone working in public affairs, I think that's really important. You kind of have to see it from their point of view. Does what we're proposing, lobbying for, does it stack up? Is it in their interests? Is it in consumers' interests? That's the first and fundamental question you've got to ask. And then for me, because my training in economics, everything has to stack up from an economics point of view, right? It has to be analytically sound and robust. And again, I think that those are principles that RWE would always abide by.
08:23
Thank you so much. One question before we get into some more detail. Would you say you're still on secondment or would you say that you are, you're out of the machine permanently? No, I've never ruled out going back to government.
08:37
For sure. So you could call it still on secondment, long term loan. Very interesting. One of the things I'd like to pick up with both of you, and it relates a little bit to the internal audience, it'd be really interesting to get your perspective on not just how significant in the internal kind of buy in from stakeholders is but also
08:59
How much of your time would you say is split between the external audience and the internal audience? And the reason I ask that is we've sat down with quite a few public affairs leaders from very different settings in very different sectors that have said that a massive part of what they have to do of their role is playing the value back and almost fighting their corner internally. So it'd be really interesting to hear how that stacks up on your side. That's a great question. And
09:27
The short answer is, I'd say it's 50-50. And really, you've touched on a really key point here, which is, as a political affairs team, we can't exist in isolation from the rest of the organisation, as Alice set out, how we...
09:44
understand what the issues of the business are, the thinking, how we draw out the expertise and the insight that then we deliver externally is absolutely key to being an effective public affairs practitioner, right? So we spend a lot of time, and actually this is testament to Alice, as I'm someone who came in to work for RWE after Alice and have been really amazed and proud to see the structures Alice has put in place
10:12
to ensure that we are, as a corporate affairs team, a public affairs team, really central to that process of how a company like RWE decides on its external positions or its views on issues, either policy, regulatory or political, and how we then agree that position centrally
10:31
synthesise it, set out what our objectives are and our messages are, how we then take that and play that out externally across all the different platforms, or how we then communicate that back into the organisation as well. And anyone who works for a large organisation that's either got different operating entities within it or is in multiple markets will know this challenge of the constant trying to make sure that you're keeping everyone on the same page
10:58
And that for anyone who is going out externally to speak at events or with politicians or in the media, that they know what they're meant to be saying, quite simply. And Alice has put in place a great structure, has built a literal structure around the corporate affairs team that means the rest of the company do report in to us, as opposed to us always trying to get into the room ourselves.
11:23
with the teams to understand what they're thinking is we bring the teams to us. And that is always advice I give to people who are starting out in the private sector world. A lot of friends who've moved from parliament into the private sector sort of a little bit overwhelmed by, well, how do I create the levers that I need to pull to do my job effectively? And my advice is always make yourself
11:46
the forum through which people discuss and debate and decide what your public policy positions are, what your positions are on big debates and issues and topics. You be that convener within your organisation. And I think that is an absolutely fantastic way of working. And I think it makes us as a team incredibly effective and keeps our finger on the pulse about what the business is thinking and therefore allows us to be better external advocates for the company.
12:13
Thanks, Dave. No, no, pleasure, pleasure. If I may pass on some compliments to you as well, you know, talking about being in the centre of the organisation and placing ourselves in and amongst our colleagues who are dealing with many, many issues day to day, you know, Dave has
12:29
done that through setting up a regular forum in which he briefs on political development. So again, public affairs has a responsibility to brief back into the business about politically, what is going on taking the temperature on those topics. So again, not not just outward facing. And I think Dave has done a fantastic job and is now considered the expert, the go to person if they want an opinion on you know, where's reform going or
12:52
PMQs? What was the temperature? What was the sentiment today? You know, David will be the go-to person for that, for the most senior leaders in the company. What is going on, David? I mean, that's a hell of a question. For the listeners to the podcast, it's the 18th of September, and it's been a fairly choppy time of the last couple of weeks. There is a serious undertone to my comments and question. In terms of
13:16
public affairs being the expert, Alice, as you said, in terms of what that actually means, but also what it means to the landscape now, do you have a view on how public affairs is going to have to evolve given where the UK political landscape is at, where the geopolitical landscape is at? Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'll start with a bit of a recap again, if that's okay, because we are in such a
13:43
volatile landscape at the moment and have been now for quite a long time. So I sort of had it noted when I was thinking about this podcast as it's a new thing. But then I thought back and I was like, actually, political volatility has been a centerpiece of our political system now for coming on for, what, 10 years maybe?
14:01
you know, if we're speaking honestly, it's not showing any sign of letting up. I think there was a sense, you know, in the political affairs practitioner community that this is choppy waters that we're going to get through to easier times. And maybe there was a sense that with the election of a new government last year, that with a big majority, that that might be the case. And I think most people would agree now it hasn't been. And the facts I just want to give is,
14:24
The last parliament, so that was a normal length parliament, 2019 to 2024, we had three prime ministers, four or five chancellors. For us in the energy sector, we had six different secretaries of state. We had six different energy ministers. We had two different departments. We had four different overarching guiding strategies for the energy sector in that time, in the space of
14:47
Less than five years. And that is just incredibly difficult to try and navigate because every single figurehead who comes into those roles, going back to my point about public affairs being about people, they have different priorities. They have different views. They have different motivations. They have different ways of how they like to engage.
15:04
And you were barely getting to grips with how one minister or secretary of state liked to do things and what they wanted to hear about and think about before you were changing to do that for the next person in. And that was an incredibly challenging time thinking back about making sure that you were being an effective
15:23
engager with government, basically. And whilst maybe some of the names are staying the same, albeit we've just had a big reshuffle at the end of the summer, that wider volatility and the uncertainty about what's going on and where things are going and how the issues that are coming onto the agenda is really, really key to the UK political system now. And I think this has to be
15:44
a really core lesson that public affairs practitioners need to understand that pricing in the need to be operating probably constantly now in choppy waters as opposed to calmer times is absolutely key to where public affairs is going and i think something that is adding to that as well is everything is contentious now again we're existing in the post-truth world to coin the term
16:06
where you can't ever assume that even what were previously fairly agreed upon facts or positions can be seen as holding anymore. People are challenging and questioning and doubting all of these things. So you almost have to, it goes back to Alice's point about double down, on the one hand, double down about,
16:27
stating facts and stating what the reality is and using expertise and insight and evidence to back up your claims and positions because that's so important and you can't guarantee that the person you're speaking to necessarily holds those same views or positions as you. But similarly,
16:43
It can't all just be about hard evidence and facts because we're in a world where politics is a lot more emotive now and people want to hear emotional, real-world, tangible, impactful stories. So how you talk about what you're trying to achieve, why you're trying to achieve it, what benefit this is going to have, what you're delivering as an organisation for the country or your employees or for the government,
17:09
needs to be told in a much more human way. And I think sometimes big organisations, their natural language is corporate speak, right? Or the natural language is technical policy speak. And that's important, but it isn't everything now. And it's not going to get you to what you need, or it's not going to help you achieve your objectives. You've got to think in a human way and tell a story as opposed to just making a case. I think it's probably the big issues that we're grappling with as public affairs practitioners right now.
17:37
If I may build on what Dave said, I heard a phrase last week which really resonated with me, which summarises, I think, a lot of what you touched on, which is that trust no longer equals truth. And that's absolutely quite scary. There is a lot of misinformation out there at the minute.
17:54
and for public affairs practitioners, the challenge is how do you cut through that misinformation? We're continuously having to think about new ways of communicating, innovative new formats. You have to be online and you have to be getting your message out there across a number of different channels.
18:13
RWE will never compromise on the facts. We will never stop using facts, data, evidence, but having to communicate in new ways is definitely a challenge that we're all facing. And explaining what can be sometimes complex technocratic topics to not just the general public, but also individuals
18:33
politicians and officials. And as Dave said earlier, there's a huge amount of churn. I mean, reshuffles are nothing new in politics, but I do feel like that we are going through an unprecedented period of instability and change.
18:47
not just the political level, but let's not forget officials are constantly churning. And I know that from my time in the civil service, the person in charge of energy policy, the director may have just that last week before been working in the Department of Transport. Now, I've been working in energy for 20 years, and I still feel like I don't understand the sector fully. You know, I'm learning something new every day. And that churn at the civil service level is also quite challenging to cut through. So when we're trying to communicate complex topics to those officials,
19:16
you have to remember and don't take for granted that they don't understand the industry like you do. So when you're trying to communicate to them and convince them that policy A or policy B is
19:25
is a good idea, you have to really bring it to life with examples and just make sure that you pitch it at the right level, at their right level of understanding as well. And this is where my silver bullet ability comes in, because I am at heart a political operator who's moved into the energy sector. I am the filter for what people who have a lot more expertise than me, like Alice and others in our company, are putting together. If I understand it, there's a good chance
19:50
someone who isn't an expert in the energy sector will understand it. So I'm quite proud of my lack of knowledge and insight because it means that I can be a critical friend to the messages that we're trying to put out externally. I think there's a serious undertone to that though, because the picture that you've painted is very, very clear. And for what it's worth, I think it's very, very accurate. The volume of change and churn and reshuffles over the last, let's call it 10 years has
20:16
is apparent and the ability or maybe the skill is having the ability to engage with someone in a way that they understand. They may not be experts at all, they may not understand all the technical jargon that comes behind your position, but if you can engage with them on a level in a context that they understand, that appears to me to be the skill now
20:41
And it's going to be the skill moving forward, which is quite a good segue to my next line of questioning, which is around tech and AI. Dave, let's start with you. What are your thoughts on the impact AI is going to have on public affairs?
20:55
Well, not to spoil the answer, but I did ask AI that very question. So I have the AI answer, but I also have my own answer as well. And I think that actually summarises my view on this, which is AI is obviously going to have a huge role in shaping and supporting and in some ways challenging how we undertake political affairs and lobbying activity. But ultimately, AI is not going to replace a human face-to-face conversation and those points you just mentioned, Jack, about AI.
21:23
being able to communicate something to someone in a way that is pertinent to them. At the end of the day, that is a fundamental human to human interaction. And that's an earlier point I was making about what is the fundamental truth or essence of public affairs. It's that ability to talk to someone about something in a way that is compelling to them and brings them to your view or point of view. I asked myself that question, how does AI help do that?
21:51
And what AI is going to be great at doing is analysis and synthesising and doing your policy intelligence and analysis and generating content for you. And probably it's got a great role to play in things like targeting and micro lobbying. And AI told me that it could create a psychographic profile of legislators, for example. I think...
22:15
The term we use at the moment is biography for those listeners who are involved in this. I'm not sure it's anything different than that, but it sounds a lot more extensive and detailed. Maybe it will be. I don't know. The monitoring and alerts, you know, as you guys will know, that's a really important thing about how to keep your finger on the pulse. And I think it's still got a lot to show about what it can do in terms of
22:35
the digital advocacy point, how we, you know, the increasing number of levers that we have in the digital world to help shape and support our public affairs and advocacy activity. It's bewildering what AI, I think, is going to be able to do there. But the question I come back to is,
22:52
how is this helping achieve our objectives? It provides a wonderful number of levers for efficiency and insight and content generation and maybe doing things quicker or doing things more effectively. But ultimately, is it going to get you what you want, which is either your policy change or your not policy change or...
23:13
shaping a view about a big issue of the day or helping you as a company position yourself in a political debate or in the choppy waters of volatility that we exist in. I think AI can help, but I think it's still going to need the fundamental humanity that the essence of public affairs is to get you across the line.
23:34
I would agree, David. Maybe just two further points that I'd like to make. So I've been experimenting with AI. I would definitely call myself behind the curve, probably. But I've been using it in two ways that have definitely added value, but in my opinion, never fully substitute for, you know, a human. You touched on it, Dave, summarising papers and positions. You know, I've used it and I've tested it. So I've read...
24:01
a paper, an opinion piece or a technical paper. I've read it myself and then I've asked AI to summarise it for me because constantly as public affairs, we're expected to review something and summarise it and pull out the key points, takeaways for senior leaders and colleagues and company.
24:16
And the AI summary for me, it was a good start, but it missed a lot of nuance and it certainly missed the points in the paper that were actually really pertinent to our business. And it did that because it didn't understand our business as well as I do and the issues. Of course, you can create personas and things like that, which do get to know who you are and maybe it's just me and how I'm not a great user of AI yet. I will be obviously in the future if I use it more.
24:43
But for me, that's what's kind of missing at the moment. The second way in which I think it really does add value, and it touches on the point we made earlier around pitching your complex issues in a non-technocratic way to people who aren't experts. So I've been using it a lot to explain complex topics. So for example, I asked ChatGPT, why is marginal pricing efficient in electricity markets?
25:12
And then I was asking it, well, you know, how would you explain marginal? Because I'm an economist. I mean, in my head, I know why it works, but not everyone has had that training. So, you know, I use ChatGPT to help explain in layman's terms why marginal pricing is efficient in any market, because, you know, that's a fundamental principle of economics. But I need to be able to explain that to someone who perhaps doesn't have that training. So I find it really useful for that. And that's what I'm using it for in a minute.
25:41
I think it raises lots of questions, AI. I don't think we're there yet in terms of a profession, in terms of we know all the answers. And I think the more we discuss it, the more questions are coming out. So we've spoken with people on this podcast and off the podcast about AI.
25:58
what impact it's going to have. And broadly speaking, I think it's fair to say people are kind of along the same lines. We think it's going to improve efficiencies. Yes. The danger with it, and this is something that Alice touched on indirectly is,
26:12
You can never really take away the human factor and whether that's the individual communication part, the knowledge part and arguably even the discipline of the profession. It's something I don't think you can replace with a machine at all. And I think it opens up some really interesting questions in terms of the future around technology.
26:34
how do professionals learn the discipline so what i mean by that is if ai is going to take entry level jobs across the world okay but where are people then going to get the discipline and the knowledge that they need it throughout the whole course of their career if they don't get those initial opportunities so there's a lot of gray with it which is which i guess we're going to find out as we as we move forward i don't know if you've got any kind of comments on that at all
27:00
I mean, I agree. And, you know, I'm of the generation that had to write my university essays myself, you know, and... I wrote mine with a pen. Well, there you go. See, maybe I didn't write them myself. I typed them and the computer wrote them, but the thinking was mine, right?
27:16
And yeah, you're completely right, Jack. You know, as someone who's moved from their sort of early career and is into sort of entering and in the mid of their career now, I value so much the opportunities I had to do that more entry level activity. You know, actually watching a select committee and understanding the interplays and how it works, as opposed to just,
27:39
getting an AI summary of it, being involved in writing, crafting policy responses for a Member of Parliament and understanding the different interplays that you're trying to reflect in that letter and that communication. Understanding what your best approach is to the media and the digital platforms.
27:57
maybe have a slightly more cautious view of these things, but I think you can be too online as an elected representative. And I think you need to be really careful about assuming everything you're hearing and interacting with online is the sort of truth to go back to, you know, I'll talk about truth being a contested topic. And you sometimes need to balance your online activity with the real world for want of a better term. And, you know, I'm sure elected representatives do this, but I think you can get sucked into
28:26
debates and situations and contexts and digital forums that don't maybe reflect what wider people are thinking or reflect the bigger picture or what's best for the country or wider. And I think that's a real challenge. And I think learning your trade as opposed to getting technology to do it, there is still a great value in that.
28:49
You know, that's my experience. I benefited massively from that. But I was doing that in an age when AI didn't exist. So I get it's probably never going to be the same as when even I was doing this 15 years ago. But I think, again, it's about balance. And I think you need to try and retain the human interaction with the process, along with the automation of the process as well. And there's probably an appropriate balance somewhere there. But as you say, we're definitely nowhere near that point yet because of how early we are in the AI journey.
29:18
Yeah, I would agree. I do wonder what this conversation would be like in 20 years with someone who, you know, because Dave and I have been working in the profession for a decade or more. So we know what it's like to, well, we cut our teeth in the profession where AI just did not exist. And so we can critically see how, you know, it has its flaws. But of course, in the future, that will be quite different. So someone starting in the profession today may only have, AI has always been there.
29:47
A bit like I remember what it was like before mobile phones were around, you know, you had to pick up a landline or text someone. So I know from coming from that generation, the value of picking up the phone to someone sometimes is actually the best way to communicate. I find often too much is emails and texts. And again, from someone that generation, I just want someone to pick up the phone to me and talk to me sometimes.
30:11
And I just don't think we shouldn't lose that as public affairs professionals, that human element, as you say, Dave, it's absolutely crucial, especially when you talk about influencing, because really, that's what we're all doing, isn't it? Absolutely. I'm going to ask you the same question now, obviously, from a slightly different perspective. And Dave, start with you.
30:30
In the next five years, what for you is the one non-negotiable that the public affairs profession is either going to have to adapt to do or is going to have to retain or embrace to remain relevant?
30:44
I think it's going to be this authenticity point for me. I think speaking in a genuine way to people in a language that they understand, I think is just going to be so compelling and is almost like a bit of a trump card for everything else. Pardon the pun. But it really is the thing I think that can make the difference in your political affairs activity.
31:07
I think you can put all sorts of weird and wonderful mechanisms and technological aspects and tools to your lobbying activity. But fundamentally, I still think nothing's going to beat that direct conversation that helps to shape someone's thinking. And ultimately, still the most powerful way to do that is
31:28
face-to-face in a language that they understand and speaking plainly and clearly to that person using the motivations that are driving them to come to the issue, I think is just, you can't beat it, I think. And I think that's why, you know, we keep making the point about one of the fundamental truths of public affairs, despite everything that's happening, I still just think that holds true.
31:54
And that for me, that would be it, making sure you're speaking authentically about your issue and everything, all the messaging and narrative that you're putting around that reflects that. Thank you. I'm going to go to Alice, obviously same question, but very interested to hear it from the lens of being a corporate affairs leader. What do you see as the non-negotiable for public affairs? I think...
32:17
Again, building on what Dave has said, it's the post-truth era, like operating in that new world where, you know, trust no longer equals truth. I mean, of course, facts are facts, but a feeling, a gut feeling that might be driving a particular policy on the right or the left of the political spectrum, that often isn't just based on facts, that's just a gut feeling. So, you know,
32:42
communicating with people with as much facts as possible, but also appealing to their feelings, I think is important. And trying to cut through where possible that misinformation will be absolutely critical. Couldn't agree with you more. Thank you so much. We're going to move on to some slightly lighter questions before we finish. And for all the listeners, we've not briefed Dave or Alice on these questions, so I'm
33:08
It'll be interesting to see what we find out. Dave, maybe we will start with you. Maybe could you share your favourite or best party conference experience or story? I mean, definitely. There's a definite answer here. It was the Liz Truss Conservative Party Conference.
33:27
What year was that? 2022? That was a masterclass in witnessing a bin fire. I'm sorry. It was just remarkable to be, and again, it comes back to the point about being physically present in politics still has its value because you just saw the collapsing of
33:51
a government and maybe not quite the Conservative Party at that time, but everything that was going on during that conference
33:59
it was all happening in that place. And, you know, often when things are happening in government, it's behind closed doors in Downing Street or in the Treasury. And, you know, there's lots of speculation. But because it was happening at the party conference, you were there as an attendee and you could see the panic in the eyes of cabinet ministers and ministers. You could sit in fringe events and see the message discipline break down because the direction on what the position was just wasn't being given. You could see, you know,
34:29
There was a cabinet minister who appeared in an event who just didn't make any remarks, even though they'd been billed as speaking, because they were just under too much heat that they just couldn't say anything that wasn't about the major issues blowing up at that conference. And they said, thank you for coming and left. And the room was stunned. And it was just remarkable to see that happening. I think that was probably a very rare occurrence. I've been going to party conferences for over 10 years now and
34:58
I'd never seen one, you know, you talk about good and bad conferences, but that really was one where collapse of a government was taking place before your very eyes. So absolutely, hands down, 2022 Conservative Party conference. Before I go to Alice, I would probably just come in and I don't usually comment on these things, but I was also there
35:15
And I would agree with everything you said. I think that the one thing from memory that summarises it quite well was I remember being in the main bit in the ICC in Birmingham where they sell the merchandise. And I'll never forget, I took a photo of it, the mug that says, In Liz We Truss. Well, I managed to buy one of them before they sold out because they did sell out. So there was still some popularity there. But yeah, confession. Well, confession, I collect niche political mugs.
35:42
so there you go there's some breaking news for you but I was really happy to get my hands on the Liz Truss one because that proved to be quite a special one I only get it out for the special guests in my house
35:54
Alice, same question. Same question. Well, I'm fortunate or unfortunate enough not to have attended many conferences, partly due to the fact that I've had a few spells of maternity leave, having recently had two children. And also I kind of delegate to Dave going to these things. So it's been a while since I've been to a conference. I could tell you the story about how I sang karaoke with some ministers at an after party
36:17
at one of the conferences that was probably one of the lighter fun moments and memories I've got of conference when I did go so I guess I'd say David's anecdote is probably the more interesting one I don't have anything further to add only to say that and speaking very honestly Dave and I have constant discussions about the value of going to these conferences and I I did recently challenge him on it actually I said to him you know how many people do we send to these conferences it
36:45
It costs a lot of money. It's not just the ticket. It's the time out of the office, et cetera. And Dave, you know, you made a really good point. And your example eloquently evidenced this is you cannot substitute the value of
37:01
conferences, bringing people together to be in the room and to take the temperature. And I would say, again, AI is never, ever going to substitute, or at least I hope it doesn't, because I think that is absolutely valuable. And again, as public affairs professionals, we cannot compromise on that. In terms of the karaoke, was there any particular song?
37:21
I've got a video of it somewhere. I'll have to dig it out. Jack, afterwards, I'll show you. I'll wait for that. Next question. Again, Dave, we'll start with you. Who's your favourite Prime Minister? Ooh.
37:32
I mean, maybe again, I'm biased and I'm showing my political allegiances here, or you already briefed them at the start. But I had a lot of respect for Gordon Brown, I must say. I came into politics, I was very interested in politics as I was growing up. So, you know, came of age in the sort of Blair, New Labour era. But I think for me,
37:52
Gordon Brown came in at a time when 10 years of a government was always going to be a tough deal and a tough sell. I think the issues that he ended up having to battle with were just absolutely monumental. And, you know, you can argue that they're still playing through today, dealing with the financial crisis. And whilst no one would say anyone's response to that was perfect,
38:16
I think what he did to brigade the international community to act in lockstep on that
38:24
was remarkable and probably quite undervalued. And I think that without that, we could have seen some even more devastating consequences. And you can always talk about counterfactuals, but I think without that, that would have been just, we may be in an even worse situation back then or even today, if that's possible. So I would say favourite Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, because of the hand he got dealt and the way that he then played it and saw it through. And even though the writing was arguably on the wall,
38:53
managed to deliver not a bad result, given the results we've seen in recent times for major political parties, you know, denied the Conservatives majority and sort of kept Labour respectable going into opposition, I would say. So that's it for me.
39:06
Alice, favourite Prime Minister? What a great question. I would maybe agree with David that Gordon Brown had many, many, many qualities. And, you know, in a way, it was a pity that the global financial crisis happened on his watch, because if it hadn't, perhaps we would have had a different outcome of the 2010 general election.
39:24
You know, he was dedicated to, you know, he was fiercely intelligent across so many details. But what he wasn't very good at was the kind of appealing to the electorate.
39:36
No one really liked him. And I think his predecessor, Tony Blair, was a completely different character. I mean, he was obviously very intelligent as well. But he just spoke to the public in a way that I don't think we've ever seen since. And for that reason, he probably stands out to me as probably my favourite. I mean, I know he did a few things that lots of people
39:56
don't look back on and I think his legacy has been somewhat tarnished by that but I would say it has to be Tony Blair I mean before Kier Starmer won the election it was only him and Howard Wilson that actually won an election for the Labour Party right so I think
40:10
History has not looked kindly on him, but I feel like sometimes we forget the qualities that he had as a Prime Minister. I always feel very sympathetic for the people who come in towards the end of a government time. So you've got your John Majors, although John Major got seven years, so a pretty long, long time. You know, your Gordon Browns, even Rishi Sunak. I did...
40:31
I don't think you should feel sorry for politicians as a principle, but I did feel sorry for Rishi because I think Rishi was very capable and did, you know, have some good ideas and was on the right track with most things. But just the nature of the party he inherited just meant that he was just constantly hamstrung by that. And I think that's, you know, again, as a student of politics, that's really interesting to see how prime ministers who are come into office in a way that isn't
40:58
optimal manage that and we've had a lot of examples of that recently and there's no answer to how you do it I don't think yet. Absolutely we could talk about this all day unfortunately we don't have time but maybe we'll do a follow-up. My final question to both of you is linked to who your favourite Prime Minister is. The final question is
41:17
Who's the best prime minister that the UK has never had? Oh, it's a good question. And you know what? The person who I think maybe went too soon and should have waited and might have had a different trajectory, albeit their existing trajectory was pretty good, was someone like William Hague. Because, again, current politics reflecting back, but William Hague coming in after a drubbing at the election after a generation in office...
41:47
I'm sure he's speaking to Kemi about dealing in that situation. But I think, you know, probably Hague knew there wasn't much of a chance of him becoming prime minister, but took on that mantle anyway. So kudos, kudos to him. But, you know, I think he was a very well respected foreign secretary when he came back into office under the coalition years. And I'm sure he would have been a very good prime minister as well. And, you know,
42:14
just timing and chance did not do that for him and I think again you see that with other politicians in terms of the hands they're dealt so you could say the same arguably for David Miliband and you have the tragedy of John Smith as well of course in the 90s so
42:30
I think there are lots of people who could have been very good prime ministers who for whatever reason haven't had their shots at doing so. So I think that would be my answer. Thank you very much. And thank you very much to you both for coming in. It's been really, really good fun. My thanks as always to my colleague, Oli Foster, who's our in-house producer. Perhaps you have a view on the future of public affairs and you'd like to share it or perhaps you'd like to add to the discussion yourself.
42:55
Please follow the link in the show's bio which will direct you to our feedback page for Helio Intelligence which is of course the home of DeHavilland and Forefront.