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Parkinson’s: An Athlete’s Journey is for athletes navigating Parkinson’s, the coaches and clinicians who train them, and anyone who wants real-world strategies for performance and longevity. Hosted by Eric Von Frohlich and Todd Vogt, the show focuses on tactical takeaways: how to train, recover, manage symptoms, and stay consistent when the rules keep changing. Expect honest conversations, tested routines, and guest experts who go deeper on what works.
Eric Von Frohlich (00:00)
So I didn't mention that you're a physicist as well,
Chris (00:03)
well I'm a physics teacher.
Eric Von Frohlich (00:05)
the common person they're one in the same, but
Chris (00:08)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (00:08)
are you still teaching?
Chris (00:10)
No, I stopped about three years ago now.
teaching for about eight years with Parkinson's.
Eric Von Frohlich (00:16)
Excellent. Well, maybe we can dive into what your life looked like before Parkinson's. How did you get into climbing?
Chris (00:22)
I started climbing when I was a baby basically. I used to climb around the house and up any rocks or anything that was around. I climbed trees, got told off at school for climbing trees. then I discovered that this was a sport. And realized I'm a climber. And so I started doing it at school with a teacher and then went on from there.
when I was of 14, 15, one of our dads would drive me and my friends out to a cliff climb there
Eric Von Frohlich (00:48)
Sounds like a responsible parent.
Chris (00:50)
Yeah, I mean, it's when I think back, it's like totally irresponsible.
Eric Von Frohlich (00:56)
dangers
we survive as children usually form the life that we live.
Chris (01:00)
Yeah, I mean I'm really glad that I was allowed to do that. But I we didn't know what we were doing. We were a bunch of , well starting about 13, 14. it was traditional climbing there's no bolts, so we would throw nuts into cracks and things like this and we'd swing about on the rope wear it through on the top of the crag.
Eric Von Frohlich (01:16)
Wow.
It must have been quite an exciting time, I'm sure.
So how old were you when you decided climbing was going to become your life passion? Or did it kind of creep on you slowly?
Chris (01:29)
almost straight away from about when I was about when I was at school I was interested in was climbing really. my friends were climbers because we all started together so I encouraged other people to start climbing and we just in the break times we'd hang off the door lintels and
Eric Von Frohlich (01:46)
Hahaha
Chris (01:47)
these things we'd heard about like front levers and one-arm pull-ups and stuff to build up
strength.
We climb on the walls of the buildings and I couldn't really talk to anyone unless it was about climbing. was not very social. If people weren't about into climbing, I wasn't really interested in them.
Eric Von Frohlich (02:01)
Right. It sounds myopic,
but most people who become excellent at something have degree of focus. So it's
Chris (02:07)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (02:08)
probably a good thing that you were obsessing over.
the teachers encourage your climbing or did they kind of frown upon it?
Chris (02:15)
Yeah, well, I was really bad at sports, was the kid who was the last person to be picked for the teams. And then they'd argue who would have me. when I started climbing, allowed me to climb in the PE lesson because they of an old climbing wall there, like a wooden structure.
so then then on, I got very good grades in PE, in physical education.
Eric Von Frohlich (02:33)
Excellent.
Chris (02:34)
It's funny because I now realize that I'm actually quite athletic and in school sports I was completely not.
Eric Von Frohlich (02:42)
Was that a matter
of interest or was it just the wrong form of exercise?
Chris (02:47)
I'm not sure
because I think I could have been OK runner,
Gymnastics maybe. I've got extremely long arms. So maybe swimming. Yeah, climbing, I'm perfect
Eric Von Frohlich (02:57)
It's a good advantage for, or maybe climbing.
Chris (03:01)
for climbing. I have an ape index of 20 centimetres.
so my arms
Eric Von Frohlich (03:05)
my.
Chris (03:06)
are 20cm longer than my height and my ankles are really thin so I have no legs
Eric Von Frohlich (03:12)
Sounds like a perfect build for a climber.
Chris (03:15)
Yeah, It'd been a real shame if I'd never found climbing and never done it.
Eric Von Frohlich (03:19)
Well, that's
why you have to keep embracing new challenges because it may be a passion
that you know you had.
Chris (03:26)
Yeah, there's probably someone out there with a 30 centimetre ape index and even thinner ankles who never went climbing.
Eric Von Frohlich (03:32)
Exactly. Well, that's why life is about exploring and trying to find adventure. And hopefully you discover something that you're passionate about and you love that oversets the discomfort of the activity.
Chris (03:48)
doing cross-country running at school and I just used to get this pain in my stomach.
this idea of going through the pain or It just put me off.
Eric Von Frohlich (03:57)
It's very Norwegian of you to endure the pain of rock climbing without complaining.
Chris (04:02)
Yeah, I mean it does hurt. That's one of the things that climbing hard, I don't do any sport hard, there's a lot of pain involved.
in things like running and endurance sport.
Eric Von Frohlich (04:12)
So with the climbing, what was it that offset the pain that made it so thrilling for you?
Chris (04:19)
I think I felt I was quite good at it from quite early on. So I got a lot of good feeling from doing something that I was better than other people at. mean, I suppose it's dopamine.
Eric Von Frohlich (04:31)
You know, I heard a great explanation of dopamine is that it's not the pursuit of happiness, but it's the happiness of the pursuit.
Chris (04:39)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (04:39)
or imagine your physics mindset allowed you to be such a good climber. Being such a good climber allowed you to do physics because of the sequential nature of both of them and the problem solving that's unfolding in front of you.
Chris (04:52)
It could be. think also physics less writing than history, for example. And so there's
Eric Von Frohlich (04:58)
Right.
Chris (05:01)
an advantage of doing something with not so much writing in
also very easy to get into university for because it was a very difficult subject and people, wasn't very popular. of all my climbing all the time, didn't study very hard.
But I scraped into university to do physics because it wasn't popular. But then I had the challenge of doing this really difficult course, which I struggled with. But by struggling, I think I became a better teacher.
Eric Von Frohlich (05:24)
Well, the Stoics often said that the obstacle becomes the way. The path is the thing that obstructs you and challenges you the most. It's the thing that you probably need to work through best to become the person that you need to be.
So it seems like you stumbled on it, whether it was by intention or not, you stumbled into the perfect path for your life and you manifested this amazing career.
Chris (05:48)
Yeah, everything seemed to fit together because the reason I went to teaching was because of the holidays.
Eric Von Frohlich (05:54)
Do long vacation.
Chris (05:55)
Yeah, so I could go to abroad climbing and stuff. So there's a lot of climbers that are teachers.
Eric Von Frohlich (06:00)
So speed us up from your childhood to at what point did you find out that there was something not working as well as it used to work?
Chris (06:09)
Well, was actually the classroom. found I couldn't answer students' questions anymore.
suddenly, was standing in front of class. Someone asked me a question. I started answering on the board and I just got completely confused. I just couldn't work out what was going on. And that was quite new to me because I've been teaching for a long time.
at the same time I was climbing on the indoor climbing wall.
out on a hold of my left hand and my hand just popped open. I just let go. I sort of fell on the
mat. I just knew this was not normal. Normally you'd fall, you'd either slip off it you'd just not be strong enough to pull it. My hand just like released.
So I went to the doctors and I explained this and they said, need a holiday.
I was like, but I'm a teacher.
Eric Von Frohlich (06:54)
You
Chris (06:55)
I have huge holidays. I can't possibly need more holiday.
Eric Von Frohlich (06:59)
Right.
Chris (06:59)
then it continued a bit and I went again. And this time the doctor did some tests like these tests.
Eric Von Frohlich (07:08)
Right, through that.
Chris (07:10)
Yeah, maybe walk across the room and all this stuff. And firstly, they think I've got
What's the one? The one that Stephen Hawking had.
Eric Von Frohlich (07:18)
ALS.
Chris (07:19)
Yeah, that's right, yeah. And so that was pretty frightening because I thought, my gosh, I'm going to die in three years or something. It's not a good prognosis. so when they then discovered that actually it's not that, it's Parkinson's, I was quite happy with that. I thought, yeah, I'll go for Parkinson's, thank you.
Eric Von Frohlich (07:35)
We had the same reaction. was hopeful that it wasn't ALS to the point that when I heard it was Parkinson's, I was like, I got this.
Chris (07:43)
Yeah,
my uncle had an ALS and it wasn't very nice.
It's funny, sometimes I think cure now, suddenly, and lost Parkinson's. I'm not sure how I would You work around these things, you spend so much effort getting do things with Parkinson's that just wasted all 13 years preparing for this, and
Eric Von Frohlich (08:04)
Exactly.
Chris (08:06)
now I don't have to anymore, I'm normal.
Eric Von Frohlich (08:08)
would be a welcome challenge for most of us.
Chris (08:12)
Yeah,
think I prefer not to have it, but it's a funny thing to think about.
Eric Von Frohlich (08:17)
Yeah, I can I can build the characteristics that I'm short of in other ways than Parkinson's. But,
Chris (08:23)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (08:24)
you know, it seems like this is the one that I got right now. So I'm making the most of it and meeting wonderful people like yourself and hearing your stories and getting inspired. so you're on a rock climbing wall and your hand pops off. take a fall, presumably. and you realize that this isn't
what it could be, but something that you can work with. So you find that your diagnosis positive how did you proceed going forward from it? Did you share it with other people or did you keep it to yourself?
Chris (08:54)
I told everyone straight away I told them at work And you read what the symptoms are, I had all of them. had the small writing, drooling, difficulty swallowing, hand shake. And as time went by, they disappeared. not all of them, but some of them did.
Eric Von Frohlich (09:08)
And where do you attribute
that to?
Chris (09:10)
I think it was just psychological. I was expecting these things to happen. And the small writing one's quite strange. My writing, it just gets smaller and smaller and smaller.
Eric Von Frohlich (09:19)
Yeah, that is an
interesting symptom, isn't it?
Chris (09:22)
Yeah, weird.
Eric Von Frohlich (09:23)
Yeah, I noticed
that with my handwriting and it was disturbing at first, but much like yourself, a lot of the early symptoms that manifested, for lack of a better word, were temporary. And as I continued to train work out, I seemed to push those things into remission is the right word, I'm not sure, but into.
not being a factor in my day to day life. There were other symptoms were more prevalent, I guess.
Chris (09:50)
Yeah. Also, I thought when I heard I had Parkinson's, I thought I couldn't climb anymore, but that just wasn't true. the doctors and the physios said, know, can still build muscle and stuff, you can still train. So I went out and started climbing again. And I actually climbing quite hard I climbed a 7C route and several 7A boulders.
Eric Von Frohlich (10:08)
And what do
you attribute that to? How did you manage to maintain that ability despite the challenges that Parkinson's was presenting to you in your daily life?
Chris (10:18)
I just tried hard.
Also, think these routes were all routes I'd done before. And so I
knew the body positions and stuff. Also, I changed the way I climbed, because I couldn't use my left hand hardly at all at first. So I would use both hands on all the holds. only hang on
with my left very momentarily. And so I'd then jump my other hand up,
so I'd be very selective
of the routes I'd do. thing was the clipping the bolts because I to clip the bolts with my left hand. My left hand is
Eric Von Frohlich (10:47)
Right.
Chris (10:48)
really difficult to clip. Sometimes I just spend ages trying to clip a bolt and it really alarms my friends.
Eric Von Frohlich (10:54)
It's pretty remarkable that you figured that out. The first time must have been a little frustrating, but then you would imagine just stick with it.
Chris (11:03)
Yeah, I mean I still find difficulty doing it. I've found if the carabiners is the right way round, it's the gate facing right, can clip it much more easily than if it's facing left. So they have to leave the carabines in the right position for me. Also my friends don't allow me to do anything with the rope whilst I'm climbing. When you get to the top of a sport route, you take the rope off and you thread it through the bolt and then you tie it back on again.
I get a bit confused sometimes. It takes me ages to do it. So after a while they just said, not doing it anymore, we'll go up and do it for you. So they're kind.
Eric Von Frohlich (11:37)
That's kind of practicing the Parkinson's card to do things that you don't want to do otherwise. You can
Chris (11:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (11:45)
quickly just slow things down and frustrate everyone around you. And they have
Chris (11:49)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (11:49)
a tendency to help you put your coat on or tie your shoes or maybe top rope a climb for you.
Chris (11:56)
Yeah that's right yeah. You're always worth playing the card occassionaly.
Eric Von Frohlich (11:59)
On occasion, there's got to be some upside to this. So if that's if that's the case, then I'm going to take advantage of it a little bit. so were you able to climb and teach keep a balance despite your diagnosis.
Did they change anything I knew or did everything proceed as normal?
Chris (12:17)
didn't change anything, but
I changed the way I teach completely because I couldn't perform in front of the students anymore. I couldn't write, think and speak at the same time. I could do one them quite efficiently at a time, but not all three. Teaching from a board, you have to do that. Also I had a smart board, which is you have to very quick to make, I use a lot of animations and stuff. And if you're slow, if it really frustrates the students. I stopped teaching from the front.
and prepared work for the students on my website. And so they would, I would just sit in front of the class, they'd come in, get the computers out, work the activities and come and ask me when stuck. So I'd just sit in the front waiting for to come and speak to me. And that worked very well.
Eric Von Frohlich (12:57)
interesting.
Chris (12:58)
And also my website, it was full of material for teachers, I published it and it's making a lot of money with people subscribing.
using
Eric Von Frohlich (13:07)
great.
Chris (13:08)
a thousand schools. It's all material I developed
stop teaching from the front.
Eric Von Frohlich (13:13)
to one of the gifts of Parkinson's.
Chris (13:15)
Yeah, because I'd always thought that it would be good to get to not be at the front of the classroom and prepare material for students. And it takes so long. mean, for each hour class, it would take about five hours of preparation. made a lot of animations. I made videos. often if a student do a problem and came and asked me and I couldn't solve it myself, I'd go home video myself doing the solution and then post it to them.
So there were lots of ways around. The problem was in the end got a bit too good at doing this and the students would just get on with the work and I would be sat in front doing nothing. Then it got a bit boring.
Eric Von Frohlich (13:51)
So did you retire at that point or did you?
Chris (13:53)
I
retired that, but when it got too boring I retired. my website is still out there, it still has a thousand subscribers.
Eric Von Frohlich (14:00)
fabulous.
Hopefully you're still getting checks.
Chris (14:03)
Yeah, yeah, still getting the checks, yeah, It's a good pension.
Eric Von Frohlich (14:07)
So
so the ability to multitask is something that lots of Parkinson's patients struggle with. I certainly do. And it frustrates my family quite a bit that I can seemingly go to the gym and train and work out and do physical stuff. But then when I'm driving the car, I can't have a conversation and look at my phone multitask in some other problem solving way. seems to be.
somewhat common within the Parkinson's community. Have you wrapped your head around that or?
Chris (14:36)
Yeah, I can't multitask at all. don't drive anymore. I haven't driven for about a year now. it's weird. Some things I can get like making spoons, for example, at moment I can get totally absorbed by. But other things like hoovering carpet, I find just a pain. I can't get.
Eric Von Frohlich (14:52)
I'm sure you don't like washing
dishes also taking out the garbage.
Chris (14:56)
dishwashers is another one.
I mean these are things I didn't like anyway, but now I really hate.
Eric Von Frohlich (15:01)
Right.
Chris (15:02)
know often people, it's very difficult to explain this to people why this is, but it is supposed to be a symptom of Parkinson's, apathy.
Eric Von Frohlich (15:10)
Yes.
Chris (15:12)
It's difficult to convince people that's the case.
Eric Von Frohlich (15:15)
Yeah, apathy is what I struggled the most with when I first came down with it. My desire to surf, my desire to work out the things that were made me who I was. My jujitsu and it all kind of lost interest to me. just couldn't
Chris (15:31)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (15:32)
couldn't unless someone was standing in front of me begging me to do it with them. I wouldn't wouldn't get motivated to.
what I otherwise would spend hours and hours of training do. I couldn't get motivated just to go and catch a single wave.
Chris (15:48)
Yeah, I used to surf as well.
I find now that I can hardly swim and when I do go surfing I sometimes have it on my back or on my front and I can't get
around.
Eric Von Frohlich (16:00)
Yeah, the core, I think the tightness of your core and the Bradykinesia of Parkinson's has restricts a lot of the flexion of your core and
Chris (16:10)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (16:11)
makes it very difficult to get in supine position and maintain good posture. So swimming becomes incredibly difficult.
Chris (16:20)
and lifting your neck up look forward you're lying on the board. I
Eric Von Frohlich (16:23)
Exactly.
Chris (16:25)
still try to do it, but the trouble is sometimes I used to snowboard as well and I was okay at snowboarding. I'd do a lot of off-peak stuff. Christmas we went with all the family ski resort took a snowboard with me, put it on.
i just couldn't do it anymore and it wasn't in the end i decided i'm not going to do this
Eric Von Frohlich (16:46)
I think
once it loses the fun quotient, it becomes a lot less interesting in doing.
Chris (16:51)
That's
right,
Eric Von Frohlich (16:52)
It's probably what made climbing so passionate for you, was you were with your mates and you're having fun and challenging
Chris (16:58)
Exactly, yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (16:59)
each other and it kind of takes on momentum of its own.
Chris (17:04)
Yeah. Also, think now losing the dopamine I don't have the same feeling when I see a wave or see snow slope. I saw a wave, as I was driving down to the beach, if I saw the wave curling in nicely, I'd be like, yeah, let's get in there. Whereas now it's just like flat.
Eric Von Frohlich (17:21)
Yeah, that's
a big adjustment, right?
Chris (17:25)
Yeah, it's that anticipation that you get what the dopamine gives you. like the day before Christmas. Like
Eric Von Frohlich (17:31)
Right.
Chris (17:32)
wow, it's Christmas tomorrow when you're a kid.
Eric Von Frohlich (17:34)
Yeah, the challenge for me was wrapping my head around how I could love something so much and be so disinterested in it. And it was we moved to California when we when I got diagnosed. And so the access to the ocean was in my front yard, basically. And everything was lined up for me to be able to surf every day. And I really struggled with the apathy because no one really talked about.
apathy and the impact it has on Parkinson's patients. It's something that I struggled with quite some time before I realized that if I used to enjoy it, I probably still do on some neurological level and I just need to force myself into the activity. And then I get a good feeling from it, great. But if I don't, on some level, my body still remembers that it used to enjoy it.
Chris (18:28)
Yeah, I've recently started Zwifting.
Eric Von Frohlich (18:32)
what made you get into that?
Chris (18:34)
I don't know really. think I wanted to do, the weather's pretty bad here in Norway and so I wanted to do some exercise inside, keep my weight down basically. So I've never really had a bike before and so it was quite a challenge. But I'm totally into it now after about a month. don't have dopamine to help me but it's all the data.
or the times and everything.
the gamification of the thing keeps me going. It really is quite a good substitute for dopamine, I think.
Eric Von Frohlich (19:05)
It's a great point. I try to gamify putting on a shirt and see how many times I can do it in
a minute. And, you know, gamify tying my shoes where I'll tie it. But if I have time, I'll untie it and then tie it again just for the gamification of it. I think that that's an interesting observation that you made that's what's driving the motivation.
Chris (19:28)
Yeah,
I'm absolutely terrible at it. on the sprints, I'm always second to last.
Eric Von Frohlich (19:33)
How much power are
you putting out on your sprints? you look at that number?
Chris (19:39)
90 100.
Eric Von Frohlich (19:41)
okay.
Chris (19:41)
If it's uphill sprint I can put in more power but I have a very
legs are really weak so it's doing me good building up some strength I bought the whole setup second hand so the
bike probably doesn't fit me properly either.
Eric Von Frohlich (19:56)
Well, that can be complicated a little bit. I spent a lot of time on a SkiErg, which is like a Concept2 rower but it's vertical and you it mimics
cross-country skiing. And, you know, Norwegians have dominated cross-country skiing for so many years, I'm surprised anyone else even tries. But
Chris (20:15)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (20:16)
the.
There's a lot to be said for it. a great activity. If you get a chance to try that at some point,
Chris (20:22)
Yeah, I got overtaken by someone running other day in Zwift. They also have a treadmill
version.
Eric Von Frohlich (20:28)
I thought you meant they were running faster than you were biking. It's
Chris (20:32)
Yeah they were.
Eric Von Frohlich (20:34)
remarkable.
Chris (20:35)
But it's amazing how quickly winners go. They're going about three times faster than I'm going. I just can't imagine anyone could cycle that fast.
Eric Von Frohlich (20:44)
Well, I'm
sure if you put him on a piece of rock and you told him that it was a simple climb, he would have the same difficulty that you have with cycling.
Chris (20:52)
Yeah, strange though, because on easy rock climbs I'm really bad. On more difficult rock climbs I'm much better, but on very difficult climbs I obviously can't do. But I can climb much better on steeply overhanging than on slabbing.
Eric Von Frohlich (21:06)
that?
Chris (21:08)
Well, I think it's because on a slab, problem is you need to have coordination. You need to use all four limbs you need to sometimes a bit flexible to put your arms pushing in, pulling in the right way. Whereas on steep climbs often you can just tangle your feet and pull up with your arms. I still have quite strong arms it's weird. Sometimes I feel so weak.
and I'm shaking all day, and I go to the climbing wall in the evening, and I go there and I say to my friends, there's not much point in me being here really, I'm not gonna be able to do anything, and then climb quite well.
Eric Von Frohlich (21:40)
And how do you
explain that psychologically or neurologically?
Chris (21:46)
I really don't know because are often amazed when I'm in the climat, because my hand doesn't bend. It's like, see, my fingers are dead straight.
Eric Von Frohlich (21:52)
I have one, it's similar. I can't move my thumb
Chris (21:54)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (21:55)
and consequently it's more of a hook than it is a hand.
Chris (21:59)
Exactly, so I'm hooking with this hand only on the last joint. on that one. There's
Eric Von Frohlich (22:03)
Right.
Chris (22:03)
a slight bend there. Where's other people doing this? just doing that.
Eric Von Frohlich (22:08)
Right.
Chris (22:09)
quite well on the right sort hold. There has to be something to sort of hulk your finger over.
Eric Von Frohlich (22:14)
Well, that's pretty remarkable. I have the same problem with I've been doing jujitsu for many years and I have the same problem. I realize that my hand wasn't a hand anymore. It became more of a hook. So I have to modify my chokes and my grabs accordingly.
Chris (22:27)
I didn't like that.
Eric Von Frohlich (22:29)
Exactly. And so it's, you know, I can blame it on my Parkinson's if get myself in a difficult position where I can't really control the opponent the way I want to.
It's sometimes my hand slips off and it becomes more of punch than a grab. But, you know, people are pretty understanding. So there's not a lot of people with Parkinson's doing Jiu Jitsu, but for those that do it, we get a lot of support.
Chris (22:58)
I use it as the excuse sometimes I can't do a move. Often I freeze on climbs. I stop, I sometimes just can't start again, I just have jump off. So sometimes if I can't do a move, just hold on for a bit and then jump off. Then they say, just froze.
Eric Von Frohlich (23:13)
Do you find yourself climbing top ropes or bouldering
more?
Chris (23:18)
I'm bouldering mostly but I don't like top roping so I
still lead climb if I'm going to use a rope
I think it's dopamine that we don't have not
Eric Von Frohlich (23:27)
Right? That's
a good distinction. I sometimes forget that they're not the same thing because for so
Chris (23:33)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (23:34)
many years, adrenaline preceded the dopamine it all made for a very enjoyable experience.
Chris (23:40)
it can be bit frightening sometimes, once I'm locked into it, it's okay. The trouble is, easy climbs, you don't want to fall off because you hit things on the way down. You hit
Eric Von Frohlich (23:49)
Yep.
Chris (23:49)
all the big holds and the ledges. have to try hard climbs, which I often can't do, but I'd rather try a hard climb fall off into the air do an easy climb. like is I like to try hard.
I think I try as hard now as I did when I was climbing my best. It's just it's at a much lower level.
Eric Von Frohlich (24:06)
Well, it's comfort is the enemy. So it's the challenges that keep us excited and engaged in life.
it's important to remember that as much as we need to rest and recover, it's discomfort that drives us to get better and not to accept the status quo.
Chris (24:24)
it's funny though, in bouldering, you're always facing the rocks so the people watching you only see the back of your head they don't see the faces you're pulling when you're climbing so it looks easy from the back if they could see
Eric Von Frohlich (24:34)
page.
Chris (24:36)
my face they'd go UUUU
Eric Von Frohlich (24:38)
I never thought of that, but that's good observation.
Chris (24:41)
Yeah, they should make mirrored climbing walls so can see people's faces as they're climbing.
Eric Von Frohlich (24:46)
Exactly. It might intimidate some other people though.
Chris (24:49)
Yeah
Eric Von Frohlich (24:50)
So
story of yours became a movie project. Can you tell
me about that a little bit?
Chris (24:58)
yeah, my wife was telling me, talking to of her friends on holiday about how I go to the climbing wall and I look like this old man with Parkinson's. So I'd struggle to put my shoes on. They eventually shuffled to the wall. And by this time, the other people there are looking at me thinking like, what's this old guy doing here?
Eric Von Frohlich (25:15)
Right.
Chris (25:16)
And sometimes people kind of say, you been, have you done this before or something? And then when I put on, wouldn't say I look really good.
I look much much better than I should look. I can still climb nonchalantly. They amazed and then start talking to She was telling me that her friend's is a filmmaker and she said that would be a great topic for a film. So we made this film about, not exactly about that experience, but about how I go about climbing Parkinson's.
Eric Von Frohlich (25:48)
it seems like it was quite a well received documentary. It seems like you got lots of acclaim for
it.
Chris (25:56)
Yeah. things being shown on TV Switzerland and in
Eric Von Frohlich (26:01)
So what advice do you have for someone who's newly diagnosed with Parkinson's given you've lived this remarkable experience?
Chris (26:09)
I think you can still get better at things. You can still try hard. Use the obsessions to your advantage you're going to get obsessive behavior, probably.
Eric Von Frohlich (26:21)
Right, and we can't all carve spoons because we're running out of trees.
Chris (26:25)
Yeah, but I rebuilt a car when I first had Parkinson's. It took me two years working on it every day. This is on the side of working a full-time job making my website
and writing a book. I rebuilt the transceiver. I learned how to weld, learned how to spray paint. the reason I did that was because I realized that Parkinson's is going to get worse.
If I didn't do that now or then I wouldn't be to do it at all.
Eric Von Frohlich (26:52)
What kind of car was it?
Chris (26:54)
Triumph Spitfire.
Eric Von Frohlich (26:56)
great, that must have been a fun
project.
Chris (26:58)
It was really fun, that I bought a motorbike, Yamaha, and I was going to make a cafe racer. And I
almost finished it, but not quite. It wouldn't start. I just ran out enthusiasm for the project, so a monument up in the garage. It looks quite good, but it doesn't run.
Eric Von Frohlich (27:15)
it explains how I am. I often say I'm a display figure. I'm like an 80s action figure. You can put me in position if you raise my arm up, but I can't hold it or do much with it. But you have to,
Chris (27:25)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (27:26)
you know, but I look good.
Chris (27:28)
Yeah, yeah.
I also had this thing
blackouts I would suddenly drop off into a dream instantly and I'd start dreaming then a couple of seconds later I'd wake up continue as if I was in the dream
Eric Von Frohlich (27:41)
of
the day or this is when you're...
Chris (27:43)
in middle of the day,
in the middle of a conversation with someone, with one of my students.
Eric Von Frohlich (27:47)
Wow, that had to be some
interesting experiences.
Chris (27:52)
There was one occasion where I was explaining how a transformer works and I suddenly went off into a dream. There something to do with dogs. When I came back awake I said, where are the dogs? the student looked at me and I said, did I just say where are the dogs? Yes you did. So think I was dreaming for a second then. you can dream quite a lot in a second.
Eric Von Frohlich (28:11)
Yes.
Chris (28:12)
That started happening when I was driving as well. That's when I stopped driving.
Eric Von Frohlich (28:15)
So would you put it in the category of dreaming or hallucinations?
Chris (28:20)
I think somewhere between, yeah, it's like a hallucination.
Eric Von Frohlich (28:24)
That's interesting. How many years ago were you diagnosed?
Chris (28:29)
13 I think.
Eric Von Frohlich (28:30)
okay.
Chris (28:31)
So I used to have these very vivid, more like, realistic dreams, what do they call them, when you can actually control what's happening. Lucid dreaming.
Eric Von Frohlich (28:41)
Lucid. Yeah.
Chris (28:43)
And I found that I make it happen by having my head up on lots of pillows. And that was actually quite fun. But some people experience horror dreams. I don't. My dreams are sort of okay.
it's gone away now. I had it for a while then it stopped.
Eric Von Frohlich (28:59)
It's interesting. I haven't
Chris (29:01)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (29:01)
experienced that yet. I don't know if I should
look forward to it or I guess it depends on what the quality of my dreams are.
So what's the most difficult symptom you're dealing with currently?
Chris (29:14)
Probably, I'm starting to lose balance a bit. So sometimes I set off walking, if I lose balance slightly backwards, I set off walking backwards. I can't stop.
Eric Von Frohlich (29:25)
That's interesting.
Chris (29:26)
I looked it up and apparently this is the thing, this is what they're testing you when the neurologist pushes you back. A normal person takes one step, person with Parkinson's sets off walking, takes four or five steps. it's happened a couple of times where I've been close to road or something, and it could be quite dangerous. sometimes when I get out to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, experienced just a lack of balance.
It's not stumbling over it, it's just a sudden collapse. That's not very nice.
Eric Von Frohlich (29:56)
No, that's certainly a challenge. It's and then there's the anticipation that that it may happen when it doesn't happen. You're probably
Chris (30:06)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (30:07)
mindful of it possibly popping up.
Chris (30:10)
Yeah. One problem with Parkinson's is it's so all-encompassing, there's so many symptoms. You can have other things at the same time and not realize it. I've had Borreliosis from sheep ticks twice. I didn't even know.
about a year I thought it was just part of Parkinson's,
Eric Von Frohlich (30:26)
Amazing. Yeah, you have to be mindful of stuff because it potentially becomes really harmful not to recognize the symptoms for being something other than Parkinson's. We get
Chris (30:36)
Yeah.
Eric Von Frohlich (30:37)
so used to not feeling good or something being off that we just write it off as to being a Parkinson's when it can be something completely different.
Chris (30:46)
Yeah. I also struggle with eating at night.
Eric Von Frohlich (30:50)
your appetite.
Chris (30:51)
Yeah, I want to eat every time I wake up. And eat chocolate and cakes. So that's another reason why I got the Zwift bike.
Eric Von Frohlich (30:59)
Well, there's a solution for that if you don't have chocolates and cakes in your house.
Chris (31:04)
well we tend not to have but
then then i'll my wife will say when she goes shopping she says do want me to buy anything nice and i say no no please don't buy anything nice when she comes back i'll say did you buy anything nice and i'll
Eric Von Frohlich (31:16)
Hahaha
Chris (31:17)
be really disappointed when she hasn't
Eric Von Frohlich (31:19)
Well, it probably stops you from raiding the neighbor's house.
Chris (31:23)
Yeah, I mean we live in the middle of nowhere so we live sort of like not near any shops,
so I can't pop into the shop next door or anything. If I lived in a city I would have a real problem with it.
Eric Von Frohlich (31:34)
you live in the country because you enjoy the tranquility or is it to have access to climbing?
Chris (31:40)
A bit of both. I have a boulder in my garden. So the climbing is
Eric Von Frohlich (31:45)
wow.
Chris (31:46)
right here. It's a bit too difficult for me now, but I invite people around to try it. But the school I used to work at is in the countryside. And the theory is if you put the students away from all cities, all the temptation goes to do anything naughty. It doesn't really work
though. So we built a house next to the school some years ago.
Eric Von Frohlich (32:06)
So at this point, you identify as a climber who has Parkinson's or Parkinson's patient who likes to climb?
Chris (32:14)
The Parkinson's patients who likes to climb. I feel like a climber who has I don't really, I don't put the two together. I was in the Norwegian Paraclimbing team a year until they found out I wasn't Norwegian and I couldn't go to any competitions. I
did win my category of the.
Norwegian championship so I was Norwegian champion for a while.
The trouble is it wasn't really very serious. I used to be in the international competitions if
I compete I want to win.
also when I first was diagnosed, I thought, okay, now I can be in the Paraclimbing team. So I applied
and they said that I was too good. So I have to wait till I'm bad and then I won't be able to win.
Eric Von Frohlich (32:58)
Exactly. Yeah,
if you can time it just right, you maximize your climbing with weak competition and still dominate.
Chris (33:10)
I suppose I was supposed to train for this competition but I didn't train at all, I just did my normal thing. I still won. I'd prefer to go climbing with climbers and if someone like Parkinson's then that's fine.
Eric Von Frohlich (33:23)
a Zwift competition and see how you do against fellow cyclists.
Chris (33:27)
Well, I'm
a worried about this one because that is one reason why I got it. I met a girl who is really into it, who up in Trondheim think it was, when I was giving a talk after my film at the cinema and she was really into But I think I'm too bad. the idea is you go with people and I would not be fast enough.
So I'll have to wait until a bit better, I think.
Eric Von Frohlich (33:49)
Either that or you can get a battery operated bike and have the assistance of some pedal power.
Chris (33:53)
Yeah, That's the funny thing, the bike is a really
smart bike. It's got carbon fiber wheels carbon fiber front wheel, I don't know about wheel. It's
alloy frame and carbon fiber handlebars. But it's totally pointless on a static bike.
Eric Von Frohlich (34:09)
Yes, it's true. Weight saving isn't really that important on a static bike.
Chris (34:13)
No.
Eric Von Frohlich (34:15)
But it looks good.
Chris (34:16)
Yeah, looks good. Yeah, looks like I'm real pro.
Eric Von Frohlich (34:19)
so what's next for you, Chris? What are you working on?
Chris (34:23)
Next I'm going to Africa to see a friend and also go to a place called Rocklands is one of the best bouldering areas in the world.
Eric Von Frohlich (34:31)
fantastic.
You plan on climbing with some people?
Chris (34:34)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, hopefully. We had a bit of worry about insurance, but it seems like the insurance is OK.
Eric Von Frohlich (34:41)
Well, you have good motivation.
Gravity is a good motivator safety.
Chris (34:47)
Yeah, but
Eric Von Frohlich (34:48)
It's one of the things I loved about your story is that you've been able to embrace the Parkinson's diagnosis and still manage to do the things that you love to do. Maybe not the way you want to do them, but certainly you're still in the game and you're doing a remarkable job at living an example of what it is to thrive with Parkinson's. So I applaud you for that.
Chris (35:11)
Yeah, I think with all the things in my life, like with teaching physics, I wanted to be the best physics teacher I could be. I wanted to be the best rock climber I could be and I also want to be the best Parkinson's patient I can be. Yeah,
Eric Von Frohlich (35:24)
Well, you seem to be doing a pretty admirable job at it. I they're making movies on you, so there's a lot to be said for that.
Chris (35:32)
so sometimes I think my wife must think, why don't you just shut up and get on with it? Can't
Eric Von Frohlich (35:37)
Right.
Chris (35:37)
you just have Parkinson's and be quiet like everyone else?
I'd have to shout about it all the time. I think other people, if they are helped by what I do, then it's all worthwhile.