Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Each episode is a conversation between me, Eli Finer, and a budding entrepreneur, indie hacker, or solo founder.
We focus on the current biggest challenge (hint: it's never in the code) and the best next step to take (hint: it's usually not adding another feature).
If you want to be a guest on the show please reach out to me on Twitter @finereli.
Igor: Every time in the shower, like those
shower thoughts, that's that's genius.
Why didn't I think about this before?
And then you like leave the shower.
you use your towel, get dressed, you sit,
in front of your desk again, you start
typing, it's what in the world is this?
Who thought of this?
is this something with water?
is the water makes it feel
like it's, it's genius.
Eli Intro: /Hey guys, my name
is Eli Finer, and this is "Stop
Building" where I do my best to
get founders to set aside their IDE
and talk to some potential users.
This rarely works, but I love
these conversations anyway.
Igor: Actually, I have a question for you.
Um, how do I pronounce your name properly?
Ah, it's Ellie okay, because I played
health life and there was this character
whose name was written in the same way,
but they, yeah, I just want to make sure.
Eli: It's, a common thing with, my name.
Um, because.
Well, so, there is a character in the
Bible whose Hebrew name is Eliyahu.
The short for that is Eli.
Now, Eliyahu, when it went from
ancient Hebrew to Greek to Latin
and then to English, became Elijah.
And the short for Elijah is Eli.
So I am Eli, but I'm also Eli,
uh, or rather it's the same name,
Igor: Interesting.
Wow.
Such a, such a transition to
be honest, because I would, I
would expect you'd be like Ilya.
No, I have no idea.
Eli: Alright, we are here to get
to know each other, but we're
also here to do some actual work.
why don't we start with what you
are working on, and then we'll
see what we can do about it.
Igor: Oh man.
I wish I really hope we could.
Yeah.
So that's, from Ukrainian that's
report, this, came up with this word.
basically it's an app that helps,
freelancers and self employed and
basically everybody who's like.
Either slowly getting, just getting
into business or just having a gig on
the side, learn how to start separating
their, business finances and personal,
but without this like really complex
dive into something like QuickBooks
or, any other, bookkeeping software.
that's, a one liner that
I was, repetitioning.
yeah,
Eli: did you practice your
elevator pitch or is it not
Igor: for today?
but I must admit every time in
the shower, like those shower
thoughts, that's that's genius.
Why didn't I think about this before?
And then you like leave the shower.
you use your towel, get dressed, you sit,
in front of your desk again, you start
typing, it's what in the world is this?
Who thought of this?
is this something with water?
is the water makes it feel
like it's, it's genius.
But yeah, it's just one of those
things that I was like, at some
point, if I'm open to any investment,
I need to be able to convey the
idea in this short amount of time.
yeah,
Eli: That's the theory.
But I think the practice is, you get to
a point where you feel the value of what
you're selling, and you've talked to
enough people about it to hear how they
feel the value and what they see the value
that Instead of having a pitch that is
a rehearsed way, you just, because, all
these one liner pitches, they all sound
the same, they all sound rehearsed, they
all sound somewhat dishonest, robotic.
Especially
Igor: when they compare it to
like existing big products.
I know YC for instance.
Yeah, exactly.
The YouTube for Airbnb.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
It's Uber for this, Grubhub for that.
yeah, I get it.
It's for investors, but.
Eli: the interesting thing I think
is that investors are people too.
And they are, the funny thing
about this is that, an early stage
entrepreneur puts on a mask of being
an experienced person and, and an
investor puts on a mask of being the
serious dude with a tie and some money.
And then the interaction is between
these two masks, as opposed to two
people, which in masks typically
don't interact as well as people.
Or as badly.
It's just bland.
It's just pointless and meaningless.
and I have little experience, like very
little experience with investors and, VCs.
But I have quite a bit of experience
with different kinds of people.
And people are a lot more similar in their
humanity to each other under the masks.
It's just the social construct of,
oh, I'm an entrepreneur and I need
to present to an investor who's
seen 600 pitches today, that creates
this interaction that's unnatural.
but anyway, my, my point is
that a good pitch does not
come from practicing the pitch.
A good pitch comes from interacting
with lots of people, probably like
dozens at least, but hundreds probably.
There are.
Give you feedback on what you're saying
and whether it makes sense or not.
Igor: Yeah.
And talk to your customers.
Eli: yeah, that's.
So overuse?
That's really important.
Yeah, it's a very important piece of
advice, but A, if you don't have any
customers, who the hell do you talk to?
B, when you do talk to your customers,
what kind of questions do you ask?
And C, even before you talk
to your customers, how do you
even get them to talk to you?
Because one of the problems with
selling software is that you're
selling, you're a landing page.
They are a click.
There's no conversation.
How do you get people to actually
have an actual conversation with?
And we live in this modern world
where you can have a conversation
with anybody across the world.
Half of my chats are from people
on the other side of the world.
And still...
There's this barrier of, would
you get on a call with me?
Let's hop on a quick call.
There's all these, there are
all these formulas that don't
work because there is a barrier.
Like we move from being disembodied pieces
of text in an email to having an actual.
Relationship with a person and that's
scary to both sides to both the person
who's offering that and the person
who may or may not say yes to that.
but when we do that, then the
pitch becomes like fully embodied.
And instead of just talking
about this, you live it.
You're like, this is what I do.
This is why I do it.
And that's why the question
I wanted to ask you was, how
did you come up with this?
what's like the origin
Igor: story?
Oh, it's a personal itch, right?
I heard it somewhere.
I don't even remember at this point when
and where in my life I heard it, but I
think it was like, I'm full disclosure.
I'm a huge fan of 37 signals and like
whatever base camp team does, all
those like hot takes of DHH on Twitter.
I just love it.
I just love, because how different
they are, how how they pick their
own battles, if that makes sense,
and that's exactly what they.
Talk about in their books too.
I might have read it in like
getting real book or somewhere.
I don't remember this point, but
it feels like this vibe of the
best ideas for you personally is
to work on something that you.
Personally care about.
again, I, it may or may not be true.
It may work for somebody or
for somebody, it may not.
For example, I always, like I
have this new letter, a newsletter
about like business ideas and all.
And everybody talks about this
trending pickleball thing.
I'm sure you've heard of it.
No, it's it's a, it's an extremely like.
Becoming extremely popular, sports
is like tennis, to be honest,
tennis, but it looks simpler.
and everybody's talking about like how
extremely under fitted, under filled, I
guess the market of pickleball is, it's
Eli: ridiculous.
It does.
Yeah.
for me hearing, for me being like
hearing about this for the first
time, hearing about something for
the first time, and then hearing.
Discussed as an underfilled market.
Oh yeah.
Igor: it's basically, it's like
everybody's talking about this in the,
again, ev by saying everybody mean
in those newsletters, that this is
if you're looking for a new, niche,
if you're looking for a market to
fill, like that's, oh, I gotcha.
Is growing right now and they're
shooting these ideas about a marketplace,
Eli: and you're comparing that
and you're comparing that to
something that you're actually.
Passionate about not just the money grab.
Igor: Yes, but I guess to even clarify
even more, it's there is, for me, there
is a type of entrepreneurs for are
particularly good at catching certain,
niches, And getting into this market just
because they see an opportunity in there.
and then there is another who are like,
Sort of analyzing the things that they
do and they're trying to, obviously
scratch their own itch and like base build
their products and build on top of that.
I'm like, I guess at least right now
in my stage of life, I'm more, I feel
like I'm more good at the latter.
but I definitely want to learn about
the former just because you probably
know, being a designer and a developer
and all that stuff is like 10, 15% of.
Of doing something good.
You also need to understand all the
things that Ellie talking about.
and that's probably the, the scariest
for all those makers and especially
people who are coming out of like
their, small caves with their computer
where they love to build stuff.
which is me.
so anyway, sorry.
So it's a bit of
introduction to the problem.
So yeah, that's how I got into this.
I, was working full time
up until recent events.
I got laid off, but, yeah, exactly.
it was such a, it was such a hit,
but then I was like, damn, I don't
need to be in all those meetings.
And I have some money
saved for a few months.
So that's actually good.
I don't know what, I don't know
why my voice suddenly got so
high it's fear . It's the fear.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
. But anyway, it's personal
because I always.
I, in the US, without health insurance,
without, proper steady income, it's
really difficult to survive and I was just
afraid of that because I was so excited
to get into America in my, I was 20 or 19.
I don't remember.
I'm 26 today.
and, I knew that I need to have some sort
of full time while I'm doing my stuff.
and that was my first full
time job at this agency.
Who's like solely single client was Cisco.
And that's how I basically called
myself a designer in Cisco, just
because it's literally the only
company I worked with, in there.
So that's how it started.
and then I moved to Los Angeles and I used
to, work with this, music software company
called output, super amazing experience
for me about two years and all this time,
I was still continuing to take side.
clients for my design agency
that I started back in like 2013.
I think I, I left, I dropped
out of university to basically
start a design agency.
and it just got stuck with me
for that long, I think seven
or eight years or something.
so yeah, I was always on the
side doing something right,
but it didn't feel as like as.
Constant and, serious, if you
will, at the time, to start
a proper LLC, like a company.
And then I found out that it's actually
so easy in America to start a business
because For example, in Ukraine to
start some sort of like business, you
need to register as a person who's
doing business, even if it's not a
company, if you need, if you're like a
sole proprietor, you need to register.
Like you can't just do that.
I don't know if we're talking about legal,
proper, how to do it properly because
majority of Ukrainians don't do that.
Eli: But that's how, that's what you do.
If you want to be able to, To work in
a legal way if you're taxes, like the
full thing, not like cash based business
out of your basement, but an actual
Igor: business.
That's what I mean.
Yeah.
Eli: Yeah.
And in a lot of cases, I think
even like working with, things
like Stripe, from countries that
require that kind of legal setup,
they actually ask you for that legal
setup as well to be able to get paid.
yes.
Yeah, and the States is easier because,
everyone's a business, and anyone
can run their own, solopreneurship
or offer services or write out
invoices without any additional thing.
Like you can set up an LLC as a separate
entity, but you don't need to do that
if you're just work under your own name.
Canada is the same way.
Israel, on the other hand,
is like, like Ukraine.
you need to register yourself with
the tax authorities, to be able to,
it's not very complicated, but it's
not by default, like you're not a
business from the day you were born.
You're only a business once
you declare yourself to be one.
and I think.
Part of that is this interesting
balance where, so in the States and
also in Canada, everyone needs to do
their taxes every year, regardless
of whether they work a job or
have a business or anything else.
So everyone is more aware of
their financial responsibilities
and of how things work.
But in Israel, and I think it's
the same way in Ukraine and in
many other countries, if you work
a job, You never see the taxes.
You never see your, whatever,
retirement or pension deductions.
and in some cases, you never see, even
like in Israel, there's a separate
fund they put into your employer pays
into for, for your severance pay.
So when you get laid off, they
have to pay you severance, but they
don't pay it out of pocket because
they've been saving up to it.
Your salary is, is lower because
of all these deductions, but
you're protected, because of that.
So It's like taking employment and
the, how unaware you are of what's
going on around you to the next
level, but it also protects people.
And I, I have this personal experience,
like I worked in tech for many years.
and some of these years
I had a very nice salary.
And I spent, most of it.
And if I did not have that protection, of
these savings that were done, not by me,
but by my employer and of these, payments
into a retirement plan that was not done
by me, but was done by my employer, I
would have none of those things at all.
I would have spent I was a stupid
young kid and I just spend everything.
And if they didn't do it for me,
then I would have spent everything.
And it's interesting because, if you treat
people like cattle, that it makes sense
to also not give them any opportunity
to make decisions along these lines.
Or, I want to invest my money with them.
That's mutual fund or with that mutual
fund, which you can't tell the difference.
So it doesn't even matter something that's
the only decision you get asked to make
about your retirement again in Israel.
But it seems that the alternative way that
this works in Canada and in the States
is that you just by the force of doing
taxes every year, you're forced to face
these decisions at a much earlier age.
and you were learning how
to deal with these things.
Now, the problem is that the
education system or whatever
societal education you get actually
doesn't teach you how to do this.
something like TurboTax, click all the
default things because that's what you do.
And then click submit and that's
it, or have someone else do it.
So I think that doesn't
actually fix the problem.
I think what actually happens
in the States, and there's
probably stats about it.
Is that people for the most part,
just don't save for your time and
don't save enough money off their
paycheck, to, for emergencies either.
On balance, I think the system that
obfuscates all of this actually
works better for the individual.
But then becoming an entrepreneur
is a bigger leap, which is why fewer
people do this, and that's why kind
of entrepreneurship is bigger in the
States, and maybe even bigger in Canada,
because in Canada you don't need to
worry about health insurance, right?
solopreneurship in Canada is easier
just for, just because of that reason.
you're not going to die.
from a health related problem.
What a good benefit, man.
It's yeah, it's a basic, right?
Igor: yeah, it's scary.
Eli: life, liberty, and free, or
what's the three things, life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness, right?
So life comes first.
Yeah.
Igor: it's, I think it's in the U
S at least, That's one of the main
reasons people are afraid to, it's,
look at it from a different angle.
It's not that they're afraid of something.
It's that they think that's the, one of
the safest and good ways to actually live
in the States, just because by having an
employer, you're having health insurance.
You get what you're talking about, right?
The basic right to be
healthy, to be alive.
yeah, so it's an instinct thing, right?
And it totally makes sense.
I'm scared shitless, because my personal
health insurance, my, and my wife's it
runs out like in two weeks basically.
And then I don't know if you ever
heard of this or done something.
you probably didn't because you're
in Canada, but like the marketplaces
of those health insurance
companies or like whatever, I
think it was Obama's program.
I'm not familiar, but I think.
The healthcare.
gov is Obama's thing.
it's all such a mess that even just
thinking about this makes me want okay,
maybe I do want to go back to full time.
I'm not gonna, but it's just,
Eli: I understand that the risk you're
taking, by being a solopreneur with
the idea of living off your savings.
It's perfectly valid when your savings,
like the basic idea is living off
your savings is perfectly valid.
If your savings can cover
what you need for life.
And if you take your expenses, you
divide whatever you have by the expenses
you have on a monthly basis, and you
take a little bit of emergency into
account, you can calculate your runway.
But how the hell do you figure out like
a 200, 000 expense in a medical thing
that may just come out of nowhere?
Igor: Exactly.
Even if you do have 200,
Eli: 000.
Yeah, exactly.
Even if you do have 200, 000, and because
of the way the system, the healthcare
system is set up in the US, it's
actually way more expensive to pay out
of pocket than whatever the insurance
companies pay for the same service.
I don't actually have,
any good ideas about this.
This is really, this is an
actual problem in the States.
Like it's, that's, maybe that's one of
the reasons it makes more sense to build
a bigger funded, VC funded company.
And I was just going to say this.
In the States, rather
than in other places.
Most of the entrepreneurs
I see on, on, on Twitter.
And I just realized that
might be the reason.
Lots of Canadians, lots of people from
Europe, not quite as many from the States.
And the, because it's like the land of
the free, makes it way more sensible
to hold on to a job for as long as
you possibly can until you create.
Not sustainable income, it's not RAM and
profitability, it's ER profitability.
That's what you actually
need in the States.
It's cool,
Igor: right?
Think about it, make a business
that will just allow you to pay
for a ticket to Canada or another
country that has a healthcare.
Boom, you're done.
You're already like, ER
profitable because you don't need
Eli: to worry about it.
exactly.
It's scary.
Even though life in Canada is on
average, I think, more expensive.
then in the States, it depends on where,
where you are, but that's, I don't
think Canada fully understands as a
country, fully understand it's benefits.
Yeah.
Because there's it's really like Canada
is not considered generally as a good
place to start a business, but that's
because Starting a business is typically
thought of as large businesses, but
Canada is an amazing place to, yeah,
Canada is an amazing place to, just get
laid off and start your own small thing
because the risks are that much lower.
Igor: It's totally true.
look at Estonia, for instance, I think
when I was in school, like ninth grade or
something, and it's roughly when I started
PHP, actually, and MySQL, I watched
social network, Mark Zuckerberg was my
hero, and I'm like, damn, that's genius.
I know how stupid I was.
But hey, to be clear, he's a really
smart guy, obviously, some decisions
are pretty We are today say the
least, but right now I support
him because I don't like Twitter.
but anyway, that's a separate topic.
what I was going to say is that, yeah, I
got inspired by this and, like I always
with websites, like I said, I started
as a word of Warcraft, player when I
was like, I don't know, 10 or something.
And my guild needed a website.
At the time in Ukraine, there was this
really popular site builder called yukos.
net.
I think it's Russian.
I don't know exactly.
I think it is, makes you think
like how old the site builders are.
If you think about it, like it's such,
Eli: it's, it did not start with webflow.
And it actually didn't start with
site builders either, because
I'm a little older than you are.
Yeah.
And the idea that you can drag
and drop things into being.
Was that Dreamweaver?
Igor: Was that Adobe's
Eli: thing?
Yeah, but that was for the web.
I'm talking like pre web.
Okay.
So Visual Basic was like that.
We're talking like 1990s.
Seven or so.
And if you go even further back, there
was something called magic, which
was just even text based, but it was
still something you built visually.
Like you built this little, these
little windows and these little
dialogues and menus with a resolution
of 80 characters by 25 characters and
that's it, but it's, it was still the
same idea that you don't want to be
writing code to create something visual.
this idea is at least...
At least 30 years old, at the very least.
And, but it's 30 years
old only because I'm 43.
And that's around the time when
I started coding for real, but I.
I think that if we talk to someone who's
60, they would tell me like, Oh, you
youngsters, you don't know anything.
We used to do this on the mainframe 360.
We had something like that, which wouldn't
surprise me because I've seen things
like that when I was in the military.
So some things are new, but they are.
That's why I was so excited about
the new generation of ai because
this was actually new, right?
it's the first, actually new thing
I've seen in my entire career.
Cause the thing that I
think I was Listen, Uhhuh.
Yeah, go ahead.
Igor: Oh, I just, I was just wanted
to say, I think I was listening.
I just wanted to confirm your thought.
Basically, I was listening to this
podcast by, Rob Balling, who's the,, I
think he's the founder of Tiny Seed.
he has like lots of
good material, his book.
start small, stay small is
really interesting and cool.
Although it's like a bit dated
about like SEO stuff, but it's 2009.
Anyway, he has this really cool podcast.
And I think he was talking with his, co
founder of tiny seed about AI and what
are the mistakes, current entrepreneurs.
can make, but like by, doing some,
pretty basic stuff with ChatGPT,
and all, or just in AI in general.
And I really liked how he, I forgot
the name of the co founder, but anyway,
he was just talking about, how big of
a shift in the industry, the current
stage of AI is, it's not I love how
he said that he said, it's not your
another, NFT bullshit or crypto scam
or all that stuff, because, and to be,
full disclosure, I hate how crypto folks
started calling this kind of generation
of web three, who told you, you can name
the next web after your scamming market.
but anyway, that's my personal opinion.
what I was saying though, is, yeah, like
he, he really interesting describes it
and compares it to introduction of iPhone.
So the phone that has now fully,
supported, fully functional touchscreen,
that's actually, working because
touchscreen, it was there before
the same as AI, And this guy, he
actually, I think he wrote his.
Was it the dissertation in
the university or something?
I forgot.
Basically, he did some like scientific
work regarding a research work
in his, early ages about the ai.
I know it was like 20 years ago
and at the time, and then I can,
he's I can speak about it because I
know how, Absolutely useless it was
at the time, but like today, this
actually feels like this is something.
So it's definitely interesting.
but I'm a little skeptical in regards
to this whole fear of missing out.
So I'm trying to be careful,
just observe for now, but.
Eli: Oh yeah.
the fear of missing out and the desire
to go and build something based on
AI, that's definitely just a fear.
That's what I
Igor: mean about, I remember was
talking about these people who like,
entrepreneurs who like know the, can
instantly think of, of a niche and
catch something versus like people who
can scratch something of their own.
it's probably that too.
I don't want to just fall into this,
Oh, there is a business market for this.
Like I need to get on this train.
Eli: there's something I wanted
to say about this because the,
in order to be able to take.
An opportunity like that.
And jump onto it quickly and
actually make something out of it.
Cause this is this market, the AI
market is moving incredibly fast.
actually it has moved away already.
So there were like two or three months
when, once, after the, the ChatGPT
API was became available where you
could build a ChatGPT wrapper and
actually make something with it.
So the people who were well positioned
to be able to do something with it
needed to have at least two qualities.
They needed to be like the kind of
person who jumps like or leaps, into
an opportunity when it presents itself.
But they also need to already
have all the skills, all the.
All the mental blocks removed, they
need to know how to build, how to
sell, how they usually need to have
an audience already to be able to
sell it to, they actually need to be
like, Peter levels, for example, he
is the kind of guy who's ready to take
that kind of opportunity and use it.
And most people don't
like, most people don't.
So when we feel this fear of missing
out it also is because we can't
actually make use of that opportunity.
So for example, I have two kids,
I have some free freelancing
clients, and I thought, oh, I'll
build some AI kind of thing.
And I'm a little rusty with coding too cuz
I haven't coded for about three years out.
Like I'll build something and I sat
down to build something and three hours
in I'm like, this is just not going
to work cuz I can't spend 20 hours, I.
I don't have the capacity to spend
20 hours a day coding something
for a week and then come out with
something magnificent anymore.
I could when I was 20, maybe
25, but I can't do that anymore.
and there are People who can, and will,
and this is a time thing, you do it
in two or three weeks, you're still on
the wave, you're doing it four months
later, the wave has gone, and you're
like just laggard trying to catch.
Yeah, pretty much.
I'm like, okay, this is the wrong
opportunity, and there's this interesting
thing, I think it's, it's Warren
Buffett's idea, that you, there is no
opportunity cost for sitting, quietly
and waiting for the right opportunity
to arrive, which you are uniquely
capable of taking advantage of.
So this is like the fear of missing
out typically arises when these are
not opportunities that you're uniquely
capable of taking advantage of.
So the best situation is where it's your
own itch or your own set of skills or
your own something, and it is also You
know, it's also a shovel in a gold rush.
Not every shovel in a gold rush
needs to be made by everybody.
So we sit and we wait patiently.
Now, obviously Warren
Buffett can afford to wait.
We actually need to make some money.
but in general, let's say, your
expenses are taken care of and you
are this opportunity seeking person,
you're seeking opportunities that
interest you, that excites you, that,
that are, that would use your skills
well, and then you grab onto that.
we're just talking about this.
I think that it's not about people
who jump on opportunities in general.
it's.
Certain opportunities attract
certain people at a certain stage.
I can see that.
Yeah.
so you would also leap on an opportunity
if it lands within your sphere of
understanding and knowledge and suddenly
becomes this, and you would also see
it earlier than other people, right?
Maybe there's whatever you're building,
for managing expenses and maybe there's
some Regulatory change in the States that
changes what kind of, business expenses
you can have like text deducted, right?
And it's it's this tiny niche thing
that only people who do this kind of
work would even notice that's happening.
But for me, it was like,
Oh, this is amazing.
I can build a whole thing.
Because I'm already in it, yeah.
Because you're already in it, right?
It's if someone else would
look, oh, this guy, he knows
how to capture an opportunity.
He like, has a keen eye for the
best opportunities there are.
But that's not true.
You're just embedded in a thing.
And you see it before other people do.
It's the same with,
Igor: it's the same with the Vision
Pro, the new Apple's product thing.
Yeah.
So I...
as a designer and as a developer, I
really do not enjoy all this design
community to be honest, like they're
really, for me, design is a skill, right?
I just, I learned how to do it
and I applied this throughout my
career to help my either clients
or, the companies that I work for.
Do achieve certain results.
Like for me, this is just what I can do.
I'm okay at that.
I don't think I'm like
great, but I'm okay.
I can do some things.
and that's pretty much
how I think about design.
they're like, the design community and
Twitter specifically, they jump on things
as if this is like the meaning of life.
Design is everywhere.
of course it is, but so the reason
I bring up vision pro in this is
there's this 1 guy who, whose company
got acquired by figma recently.
and he talks about vision
pro, if you're not learning.
The new interface guidelines of
vision pro today, like you're going
to be out next, decade or something.
I don't, it's not his quote specifically,
but he, he talks in the lines of that.
And by creating this fear of missing
out for designers for barely trying
to get their shit together and
like their projects or something
like now you've got to jump into
vision pro and learn that stuff.
learning new stuff is really important.
But also, if you haven't been into the AR
or VR, and it's not your like industry,
I think just like creating that fear
of missing out, because this is like an
opportunity to shove it, literally shove
it into your existing business idea.
This feels like AI, this is
the same thing as with ChatGPT.
They're just like, this is trendy.
This is booming.
And they're like, how can
we use this in our thing?
I.
Something does not connect for
this with me, like maybe that's
why I'm not a millionaire.
I allowed this, You're
Eli: not a millionaire yet.
You're a temporarily disgruntled
millionaire in the making.
Igor: Possibly.
hopefully, but yeah, it's just
one of those things that I really
wish I could understand better.
Is that, just.
Jumping on the hype
train, essentially, you
Eli: can't know.
that's, yeah, that's true.
You can tell the reason you can tell is
because you don't know if this is going
to be a tiny little wave, or this is going
to be a tsunami that takes over the world.
and that's what I'm waiting on.
Jumping.
Yeah.
Jumping on the NFT train back in the day.
Like we're not talking with like now we
have, perfect hindsight, but back in the
day, some people thought this would be
an actual profound revolution of art.
And that the people who jump early
on it would become, millionaire
artists, which is a rare thing.
And some people actually did.
For a really short period of time.
But, that turned out to be a dud.
But you can't know that
it's going to be a dud.
like you probably thought it, it would be
a dud, but some other very smart people
thought it would be the next best thing.
So you can't rely on any one person's
opinion and you can't even rely on the
opinion of the market to tell you if
this is going to be huge or just a blip.
you can only do it in hindsight.
So 10 years later, you can say,
Oh, I should have invested in NFTs.
but as it's happening, like
the people who get big on.
Let's take threads, for example, right?
this is happening right now.
Threads is new threads is awesome.
So many people are joining lots of
fear of missing out as flying around.
And you can tell if this is going to be.
The next Instagram, Snapchat kind of
amazing success kind of thing, or it's
going to be the next Google plus, or
clubhouse, which was, yeah, clubhouse
is even a better example, which,
it blipped and then it disappeared.
And whoever put a lot of effort
into it disappeared with it as well.
So you can't tell.
And therefore, from my perspective,
a good rule of thumb is not whether
this is trendy or, the right
thing for many other people, but
is this the right thing for me?
So threads is an excellent
opportunity for people who like
Twitter, but are actually sick of it.
Okay, so I'm like...
I'm like, yeah, go ahead.
you do that, you do Mastodon, you do Blue
Sky, you do whatever Twitter alternatives
there are, because, if you enjoy the kind
of Twitter way of interacting, but Twitter
and the politics of Twitter are really
annoying to you by all means, but because
you would have done it anyway, right?
You're just waiting for the opportunity
to go jump ship that I'm like, go for it.
But if you're not, I'm enjoying Twitter.
I don't see a lot of the Twitter mess.
I've learned to live in my own
Twitter bubble, which is amazing
and wonderful and very friendly.
And I never go to the main line tweets,
that the Elon Musk kind of craziness.
Oh, I don't even follow
Igor: him.
Yeah.
It's,
Eli: and for me, I'm like,
I'm really enjoying Twitter.
I would leave if people would stop
coming and it would become empty.
Then I would leave and
I would be a laggard.
To whatever platform that
emerges as, the next thing.
But, I don't, I'm not currently
looking for anything else.
Why would I?
it would detract me from, and
distract me from the things that
I actually am interested in.
Igor: That's billionaires fighting, man.
Basically helping.
Eli: exactly.
And it doesn't mean it's better and it
doesn't mean it's, it would be better.
It could be.
And people who are early on threads would
thrive there if threads is successful.
But you can't tell.
This is this is the thing with
every kind of decision making.
All, everything you need to know to
make the best decision is in the future.
Most of what you need to know if
you're making the right decision,
right now is unavailable.
But you do know yourself, you
do know your own tendencies.
You do know your own, skill sets,
your own aspirations and basing
decisions on that seems to be a much
better way to get somewhere rather
than following this trend or that,
because you can, you just can't tell.
So I actually have a
Igor: question for you on this.
I think we are just.
Like at the top of my current
Hill that I'm trying to, climb on.
anyway, let's stop with the alteration.
Let me just get into this.
So basically, so my first, product that I.
Started and by product,
like my own thing, right?
Just not the projects that
I was doing for somebody.
It's called collect up.
It was also my own itch.
It's basically like a tool to organize
screenshots that you take, throughout
your entire day as a designer.
because designers tend to like software
engineers to like, basically, computer
people, how my mom called me, they
tend to take a lot of screenshots.
And, I personally just see a cool
website or see a cool footer on the
website or like some UI decision
that was made by somebody else.
I'm like, damn, I need to remember that
because this seems like a good practice.
And I screenshotted that, but I just
never had a proper place to, to bury
all that stuff because, Pinterest
is a mess, like that's basically,
stealing all from you, like every
move of yours, and shows you ads.
So that's just not an option for me.
Dropbox, all this stuff.
And I'm like, damn, why didn't
I just build a site that just,
basically like folders, but.
Also as a screenshot tool.
And that's how my friend, from Ukraine
who, with whom we've been working 12 years
at this point on design, agency projects,
which has decided to just get on this
and try to launch like a landing page.
We got 600 subscribers and all, and Wow.
This seems to be, where, yeah.
Oh my God.
But, no, we actually, I wrote you this.
We actually had, I think like
about 20 or 30 daily active
users, throughout the beta.
So it was like roughly two, three months.
So that was relatively steady.
And I was excited.
wow, this is actually getting
somewhere or maybe two months.
I don't know, but then, okay.
how do we make money out of this?
And we were talking to people about
through emails, basically we're talking.
Oh, and by the way, I was reading
the mom tests at the time.
So I want to talk about that too.
It's to your, to your advice regarding
okay, talk to your customers.
It's like, where'd you get customers from?
The mum
Eli: test is the Bible.
This is, it's amazing.
We pray on the mum test every night.
this
Igor: is how it works.
Rob Fitzpatrick is such
a, such an amazing guy.
actually it's a funny story
about, about how I got the book.
So actually I was on his gumroad
page and I was trying to purchase
it, but the link didn't work.
I was like, Hey man, I'm trying to,
oh, and actually the gumroad link I
got from the YC startup school when
Collecta was at the YC startup school.
and because it was a discount
of some sort, I don't remember,
why don't you take it?
And, I was out of job too.
So don't judge me.
I was, I needed discounts anyway.
and we just, Yeah, and I was just there.
so I see startup school has this like a
really cool list for, for participants
of the school, of certain deals.
And there was like a deal for
Rob Fitzpatrick's, the mom test.
damn, that's an amazing book.
I heard about it a lot.
I need to buy it.
So I went to this gumroad
page and the link didn't work.
The pay button didn't work.
I was like, Hey, I'm trying to buy it.
But is there any other way for
me to, to get the book, like
maybe an Amazon or something?
I swear to God, I did not expect
anything, but he just sent me
back the book, like for free.
I wasn't expecting this at all.
I just, it's internet.
I generally try to help people,
who have broken links or something.
I do that.
Sometimes customer support of
certain products hate me, I bet,
but that's a separate topic.
and yeah, and he just sent me the book
and I'm like, wow, thank you so much.
So I read the book.
I made notes.
I didn't remember shit.
Like I'm really bad at
remembering things in the books.
So I'm reading this again today.
And as I'm doing that, I actually
realized, this is all great
advice for when you talk to
people, but I sit in my room.
And people are not there.
Yeah, they're not here.
and people are in, the emails,
like it makes sense to ask them
these kinds of questions, but it's
really, it's a different scenario.
It's like a different nature around
you because If you ask people
something really direct, they're going
to tell you what you're expecting.
But that's an email, like when
you're in a conversation, you can
measure the polls differently.
So that's just something that's just
a lot of mistakes that I've done with
collected, that's all I'm saying.
So basically, we got false
positive on our subscription model.
And if it's like a.
8 a month.
and as we introduced the subscription,
the DAO just tanked to two people.
And then I realized one of them was
I, and yeah, and I swear I still,
and, but, it's worth saying that, as
we introduced the subscription, we
actually got I think eight, I think
it was eight prepaid annual plans.
So I actually, in the beginning thought
this isn't going well, but for some
reason, people just started leaving.
so I don't want to make the same
mistakes with Sweden, introduce
some weird, subscription models.
actually I'm thinking of one time payment.
What I was trying to land on is that
I think partially it was because.
There is a lot of competition in B2C in
general, and B2C is just really difficult.
and, I'm trying to find an opportunity
because that's what I heard about
the opportunities, in for this
product to be in B2B somehow.
And is that a trend?
Is that what I'm actually right on or not?
I'm really confused to be
honest, because I like the idea.
Eli: Oh, I'll give you, I'll give
you some of my thoughts about this.
Cause I, I obviously
think a lot about this.
both for my own sake and
for the people I work for.
there is an interesting
context to being a solopreneur.
And like you said, it
comes in two flavors.
One flavor is, I'm either, working
at a job or doing freelancing.
So I have something to live off.
Basically, I have an infinite
financial runway, right?
And then I built something on the side.
And then.
Monetizing is okay if it
takes a long time, right?
It's and just from my personal experience
and like the people I've talked to
monetizing SAS takes a long time.
ramen profitability could be
three years, could be five years.
It could be seven.
It's extremely rare to get there within
a year, usually because of luck, not
because of skill, or it's someone
who's done this before and knows
all the moves and already collected.
like there, it's like a 250
story building that you need to
build to make everything work.
The product and the sale and the
message of the landing and the
funnels and the channels on these
things, they all need to converge.
And they all need to converge at some
scale to be able to make enough money
to live off in a consistent way so that
the churn doesn't, take bites out of the
income you need to actually buy groceries.
the path to build a successful,
sustainable product based
business is very long.
And my initial mistake, and a lot of other
people made the same mistake, is I've...
built the product.
The only thing I need is marketing.
I can probably swing it in six
months and then within six months
I will have, sustainable income
and I don't need a job anymore.
That's not the timeline for most people.
For most people, that's not the timeline.
Actually, the only, the only
recent product I've seen to get to
sustainable level income within a
very short time frame, is Feather.
by a guy named
Igor: Banu.
Is that the
Eli: website builder?
it's it's a notion to blog kind of thing.
Oh yeah.
I remember that.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's a, I'm a, I'm a paying customer.
I was one of the first and it's a really
well built product, but the reason Biden
was able to make, as much money per
month as he has is actually blind luck.
Igor: I'm honestly surprised because I saw
this before and their pricing model is.
Kind of makes me think, wow,
they must be really fitting
into some itch in there because
Eli: it was the pricing model that
made it work initially, at least.
Because they didn't, he didn't price
it based on the number of domains
you register, but on traffic.
So it's really fit with
people who are experimenting
a lot, but that's blind luck.
That's not like I talked to him.
He said, I have no idea.
Like he probably knows a lot more than
I do about how to grow a product by now.
but, initially the first six months or
so, he's I don't know what's going on.
I'm just posting my MRR numbers on
Twitter and people come, that's hell, man.
that's, but, but that's not a
way, that's not a fundamental
principle of how products work.
it's cool.
Anyway, back to my point.
making sustainable income from product
is difficult and it takes a lot of time.
that's why the common advice is either
have a job or have like sustainable
income from freelancing while you're
doing this, because hoping to get income
from product within whatever short
runway you may have is way too risky.
and that's the conclusion
I came to as well, that.
that's difficult.
Now, that's doubly difficult when
you're going after consumers.
Consumers are fickle.
Consumers buy because of emotions.
Consumers churn a lot more
easily than, than businesses.
Because businesses typically, when
they, Like a business, when you start
using, I don't know, something like
notion and you put all your documents
and tables and things in it, moving to
something else is like a big thing, right?
It's notion can notch their prices
up every now and again, and you'd
still stay with them because the
cost of switching is so huge.
It's very rare for consumers to
actually use something for which the
cost of switching is significant.
I just wanted to put.
They, your desire to monetize is
a bit into that context, right?
The context is, yes, it's important.
Yes.
It's difficult.
Yes.
There are ways to make it
better, faster, smoother.
No, I would not expect it to
make you a full salary within six
months or probably even a year.
It's just an expectation management thing.
I'm, I probably wouldn't have listened
if anybody had told me this when I
started my journey with a different type
of app, was three and a half years ago.
I had this idea that like the apps ready.
It's awesome.
It's all great.
I've had some friends try it out.
It was great.
and I probably need six months to make
whatever, three or 4, 000 a month.
Turns out that after six months
I was making $60 so yeah, that
was like, you could, you can
definitely do a lot better than that.
this was my very poor first attempt.
I learned a bunch since then,
but it's just a timeline.
What was the app?
Oh, it's called, yeah, it's called
Wuju, it's a, the simple thing,
the simple way to describe it is
that it's a stress relief app.
Igor: Oh, I heard you
talking about that, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's like.
huh.
Eli: Basically, if you feel stressed, you
feel angry, you feel tired or exhausted
or burnt out, you go into the app,
there's a, there is a way to understand
what kind of emotion you're feeling, and
there's a process to go through to let
that emotion dissipate and disappear.
And it actually works extremely well.
I, at one point posted this article on,
hacker news that said I built an app.
That healed my depression, which
is true, because the app did heal.
Like I, I used to have depression for a
long time and anger management problems.
And I don't have any of that anymore.
And the app is responsible for that.
And to me, it sounds like this is this
is the best thing since sliced bread.
Of course, people are going to use it.
but the problem with things we built
to scratch our own itch is that.
And that's something that someone
actually, one of the commenters
on Hacker News told me about Wuju.
He said, oh, so I know what I need to do.
If I want to heal my own depression,
I need to build an app to heal
Igor: my own depression.
I love that.
Yeah, I heard that.
I love that.
It's, it was like, I was
listening to this in my car.
I was like, damn it.
It actually, it's so familiar to me.
Eli: I know what you mean.
Yeah, and that's the problem
because, who are the people
who scratch their own issues?
They're developers who
build things, right?
They can do that too, yeah.
And they can do that too, and it's not,
it's more than they can do that too.
How many different ways have you
tried to solve the problem that you're
solving with Svit by not writing code?
You probably poked at three,
four different ways to do that.
And there's Oh, I should build
something because building is easy.
It's actually easier for people
like you and me to do than to
actually do proper research.
Yes.
So actually to actually go out of
our way, and devote hours, if not
days, if not weeks, looking for
a solution and not building one.
I don't know any developer
who's capable of doing that.
Cause that's what we're used to.
Yeah,
Igor: that's what,
Eli: yeah.
and it's, and it sounds easy, right?
I'll just build an app and
it turns out not to be that
easy, but it's still easier.
Like even if building takes a few
months, it's still easier than sitting
for a few hours and doing manual kind
of clicking, click it, e click research,
Igor: but is worth it.
is solving this problem actually,
Eli: worth the money?
That's the question.
And that's why not all
itches are made equal.
Yeah, because the itch.
The actual itch might be
to build and not to use.
And if you ask yourself whether you
would have paid 20 bucks a month or
10 bucks a month or whatever, or if it
did exist before you build it, I don't
know what your answer would be, but
in many cases, the answer is I would
probably not even found it not to mention
Igor: paid for it.
I certainly would not pay for another
financial up as a monthly recurring thing.
there's so many of them.
I've used a lot and again,
Eli: and that points.
So just to complete that thought, that
points to the solution to this conundrum.
Building something based on our
own itch harnesses our motivation.
And that's awesome.
It does not make it into a business
to make it into a business.
We need to find people who
are profoundly unlike us.
The kind of person who would pay for
something instead of building it,
who, for some reason, would find some
version of what we've built useful.
So that's why my basic idea
is like you take an app.
that you've built.
You deconstruct it into the things that
it does, its features, break it apart.
And then once you've done that, you
can, you take different looks on these
subsets of features and what kind
of benefits it could give to other
people who are profoundly unlike you,
who are people with money, with some
sort of pain that you can resolve.
And that they would actually
prefer to pay money for this
rather than build it themselves.
Building their own, yeah.
By definition, these
would not be developers.
No, certainly not.
So selling to people like us is
a really bad idea, by the way.
that's what I'm doing.
I'm selling to people like me,
which is why it's really hard.
selling my consulting services to
other solopreneurs is really hard.
but in general, if you want to make
a successful business, when you're
starting out, you need to sell upwards.
You need to sell to people
who have more money, who have.
More resources and who are typically
slightly higher than you on the
social ladder, maybe not higher
by seven rungs, but by a couple.
that's like the actual trickle down
economy where you make it by pulling,
by opening the spigot above your
head, then it actually trickles down.
It doesn't trickle down by itself.
The invisible hand is
actually very visible.
It's small time businesses
selling to big businesses.
And that's also why selling, that's
also why B2B and selling to businesses
is better than selling to consumers,
because consumers are either like
us, so our peers, or in many cases
they are, it sounds judgmental,
but below us on the social scale.
You can only do that if you can do
scale and solopreneurs can't do scale.
Scale costs money and takes a lot of time.
Like scale, typically DC money.
Yeah.
you can't like even,
even if you can charge.
I'll say 20 per month, which is not a
small amount for consumer software, right?
Netflix is way cheaper.
Spotify is slightly cheaper.
so 20 a month is a lot for consumer
software, but even if you can't
change it, charge that you need what?
Like 500 customers consistently to
make a living, something like that.
Consistently, so you have churn.
So if you have 500 customers,
then you probably have something
like 20 leaving every month.
So you need, you need enough
marketing to, to maintain that.
That's a lot of work.
It's not the magic of MRR, disappears
when you realize that everyone has
a limited lifetime on your app.
Especially with consumers.
So you always need more people.
So it's not actually that
different from a lifetime deal.
It's just spread out over a longer period.
Anyway, once you realize that and
you understand how difficult it is
to get every customer, it's like,
500 customers, that's going to be
a lot of work and a lot of time and
build enough of a funnel and not for
the system to keep that consistent.
So it doesn't drop.
That's a lot of work.
And again, that's why B2B for, again,
for solopreneurs, not for all businesses
in the world, but B2B in general, if you
get licenses that are a hundred dollars
a month, a couple of hundred dollars a
month, that's typically easier to manage.
If it's niche enough, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
but then we started asking this question.
I built it for, swipe in,
swipe out expense management.
Who the hell would pay
200 a month for that?
Igor: No, that's the thing.
That's the thing.
That's what I'm trying to do, to land
on internally, is whether I do need
to move towards this bit2c thing, or
actually mirror this to, bootkeepers.
That's another thing
that I was thinking of.
because, yeah, swiping, it looks fun.
it was probably fun.
but would I'm still not sure.
Basically, would people
care enough for again?
It's not a subscription.
I don't think it's suspicion, but
even if, the current thinking is
that you're going to pay for export.
like, when you actually need to
file your taxes, possibly, that's
where all your prepared thing that
you were caring and swiping for
throughout the year is ready for you.
And then you pay for the expert.
And still, it's, yeah, people may not
even be used to that to more extent,
if they're only starting, unless again,
unless they're on W2, which is like the
full time on the US states, and then
they're doing something on the side.
If that's the case, they
have money to pay for that.
But if they're just starting,
they're going to be really careful
about their expenses in general.
Like myself, for example,
I count every dollar.
so that's what I'm thinking, because I
was talking to, speaking of validation,
I was talking to, I just shared like, a
few questions on Reddit, like bookkeepers
and freelance on self employed.
just, questions around the idea,
but not actually exposing the idea.
I did expose the idea in one,
but generally I was just trying
to, get a sense of even, are
people even thinking towards this
direction that I'm guessing or not?
and what I heard from a lot of
bookkeepers, for example, is that They,
that's the majority of self employed
who actually come to them with all their
expenses being messed up with, to get like
mushed up actually together with personal.
And I initially felt damn, yes, exactly.
That's my validation.
It's right there.
But no, dude, stop.
It's not necessarily what they're saying.
Maybe what they're saying is that
they have this issue, but maybe
people don't care because people keep
bringing this, mushed up expenses to
keepers and they're fine with that.
Is the bookkeeper's work to clean that up?
So
Eli: there's your answer.
that's the answer to your question.
And maybe it's, if you talk to 10
bookkeepers, not on Reddit, not an
email, like actually, like we're, we've
been talking for an hour and a half.
You have 10 hour and a half long
conversations with bookkeepers
who work with solopreneurs.
I guarantee you'll find something.
You may not find what Svet solves.
But I guarantee you, you'll find something
because this is a narrow enough niche
that will have some problems unsolved.
These may not be problems you can solve.
Some of these problems may
not even be software solvable.
Or they may not be
solvable by a solopreneur.
But you will find something that
is common to all of them, that
they are all struggling with, and
that they would all pay money for.
And then you have a question
of whether you want to do
Igor: it or not.
Yeah, because fighting into it is tough.
Yeah,
Eli: fighting into it.
Yeah, you can integrate into
it maybe, and do something.
whatever, a Chrome extension that
does an Intuit, I was like, lots
of options, but these options only
become available when, the, when, your
target audience intimately, and it's
funny because I don't know if, if Rob
mentions that mentions this in the mum
test, if you actually need very few
conversations to get those insights.
You don't need a hundred conversations.
There's this, I saw this,
there was this research paper.
they tried to, figure out like when
exploring a new target market or
something like that, when you talk
to people in the same niche, when
do you stop hearing new things?
Like basically you talk to the
first bookkeeper, what do you do?
How does your day look like?
What kind of clients do you have?
what is booking weekly?
you ask all the stupid questions, right?
And then you have like dozens of insights.
about the industry and about the
vertical in, in a single conversation,
the next conversation, it's not
as you're not as clueless, right?
Because
Igor: you are similar, right?
They're like,
Eli: if you're exactly in
the same industry, you're Oh.
And I talked to this other bookkeeper.
He does it this way.
How do you do it?
And you start to sound.
Like you know what you're
talking about, right?
By the fifth or sixth person you're
talking to, you're like, I've been
talking to bookkeepers and in general,
people seem to be doing it this way.
How do you do it now?
You sound like an expert, but you
don't only sound like an expert.
You already are because
Igor: how
Eli: many, because how many people, not
an expert in bookkeeping, but an expert
in understanding how bookkeeping from
the perspective of an engineer, right?
And.
And I think, you get to
significantly diminishing returns
after about seven conversations.
And they dwindle to nothing after 12.
that's the level.
Now, dude, we're coders, right?
our natural state is to type things
on a computer, not talk to people.
12 conversations is a lot.
It's 12 hours of FaceTime, with
people we've never met before.
I realize this is quite an ask.
However...
It's also not insurmountable.
It's it's this kind of research
project I can get my head around.
Most people can get their head around.
and if you talk to 12 bookkeepers
who work with solo developers
or solopreneurs, you will know.
Sorry, most of what there
is to know about this.
And if there is a problem that you can
solve using bits of ZVIT to solve and
sell to these people, you will know.
I will, I'll tell you more than that.
there's a, there's a likelihood
you will have sold a couple, right?
Because if you, 8th or 9th.
You will like, listen, I have this
idea about what you're talking about.
Like you do the mum test and you ask
them about their problems and you relate
to them because you already know about
the problem that you're talking about.
You don't start with your idea.
Because you would, you will naturally
start over these conversations.
You will naturally start.
drawing things on napkins and coming up
with ways to solve, as a dev solutioning
Igor: right away,
Eli: solutioning.
Exactly.
So you will start talking about how
this could be resolved and getting
feedback on whether this is actually
the solution or there's yeah.
But you know what?
I have my assistant do all that.
And I don't trust software that much.
And then you're not,
you're not like, you're
Igor: not still validation.
It's just validation that.
yeah, exactly.
I guess I was just trying to say that it's
still validating that it's just you're
validating that it's actually not valid.
So it's still invalid.
Yeah, you're still successful there.
Eli: And I think that's, so this is
what Rob was talking about in this book.
but he wasn't doing it for solopreneurs.
He was doing it for like most of what
he wrote is for funded companies.
Exactly.
So his technique, so basically what
I did, like my own technique is
like mom test, but for within the
limitations and the specific situation
of solopreneurs, because you don't
write cold emails to, bookkeepers.
In the way you would reach out to a VP
in a big company that you want to sell
to or a VC or something like there are
many ways to do that, but the way that
Rob is describing in his book is not the
way because his technique is when you're
reaching, bottom up, like you are just
a nobody and you're asking for advice.
That's his basic premise.
Excellent way if you're trying to get, I
don't know, Tim Ferriss to respond to you.
But if you're reaching out to a
nobody bookkeeper kind of person,
then that is just not the way.
Yeah,
Igor: I'm really, that's what
I wanted to ask about too.
I mentioned this earlier that You know,
he maybe talks about this, in the book.
And again, I, like I said, I'm really
bad at remembering things from the books.
Like I need to reread stuff, or make
notes and then reread the notes.
But, the questions are valid
and the logic there makes sense.
Because again, you don't
want to get bought in.
Or your idea because people
are people pleasers, right?
They're not comfortable in saying
the truth right in front of you.
So that makes sense.
But where do you actually
start those conversations?
I think he touches on that.
I may be just forgetting.
But like in this solopreneur slash
indie hacker kind of situation, because
I have this one person on Reddit as
an example, who was responding to
every post, that I was asking the
questions around, around the topic.
And they were super helpful.
And I can sense that they know
a lot, but is that the way to DM
them and say, Hey, can you, like
you said, jump on a call with me?
There is a
Eli: very simple answer to your question.
Is it work?
Igor: I don't know.
I need to try, but I'm just, like I said,
Eli: for now, you've been
asking questions and this.
Person.
Oh, you mean like in Reddit?
He is answering like, you, you
are doing it and it is working.
Yeah.
Then why would you ask me how to do it?
Igor: I guess I'm trying to understand
like, you have something that works.
I, yeah.
Yeah.
yeah, I can see that, I can
see it from that perspective.
I just wanna make sure if that's
the right thing too, because.
He talks, Rob, for instance,
talks about live conversations.
I'm just wondering, do you need to have
live conversations to relay those ideas?
Absolutely.
Eli: see.
However, there is one caveat with this.
a live conversation, like a
video call, is the best thing.
Yeah.
But an interactive chat, which is like...
You're both online at the same
time, and you're fully immersed
in the chat, is a close second.
And actually, in some
ways, it's even better.
because, first of all, you
have the full transcript.
You can think a little
bit about what to say.
And, I'll pitch myself for a sec.
If...
I'm guiding you through this process.
You can even send me a screenshot.
Ooh, that would be fancy.
and then I can help you figure out,
sometimes people, people that I work
with, do have these conversations.
Sometimes the conversations, the
conversation kind of gets stuck.
You're not sure what to ask next, or
you think, oh, this answer he's given
me, that means this is not the thing.
Or, like you said, oh, it's
validated, it's Probably neither.
I can be the, this third person in
the conversation, which is impossible.
In, in, in a real time video chat.
but this only works if
it's an actual live chat.
So both of you are
online at the same time.
and you talk and usually these
conversations can be pretty long.
Like you can chat for an hour,
on, on, on Reddit chat, and
get a lot of really juicy bits.
but if.
If you exchange messages, which is,
through whatever medium, but it's once a
day, it just doesn't have the same energy
and you can't get to the same depth.
So you ask a question, the answer
question, you ask a followup, the
answer that by the time you ask
the third question, kind of Peters
out, like you can't keep it going.
It's not interesting enough to either.
Igor: That's what I feel right now in the
comments like I can, I mean I can tell
I'm like almost certain I'm asking the
right question I'm not pointing to an idea
right now I'm just like asking about what
are the challenges there, and I'm just
following up like how often do you have
this challenge, what have you tried to
solve this with, and you know the stuff,
but like their answers are so correct,
Eli: like they thought them through.
because your questions are predictable.
I guess that's true too.
like your questions sound like fishing.
They do not sound, they do not
sound like a conversation if you
actually ask these questions in that
way because it takes a little more
un unclenching over anus
to be . That's a good call.
Yeah.
I, to actually be able to make that
conversation into something,, that sounds
actual, because it needs to sound as if
you are actually curious and you need
to have a good reason to be curious.
So there's a very, there's a very
subtle point where you need to
introduce the fact that you were...
Working on a solution to a problem in
that space or you've been like something
because you need because if you don't
provide a reason it becomes weird.
The questions become weird, you can
ask two or three questions and that's
there's this natural sense of like why
are you asking me all these questions.
And so you need to, at some point,
like you don't do it up front, you, you
need to provide a reason, but you need
to provide it in a, in an obfuscated
enough way that they don't ask you for
a URL because once they do, you've lost
it because once they, they ask for the
URL, the conversation instantly shifts.
If it continues at all, it
instantly shifts to what
features you should be adding.
Yeah.
And
Igor: that's just.
I just like that.
Yeah, it's doesn't count at
all, unless they're actually
already paying, but even yeah.
Eli: yeah, no, and even that, like
the only feature requests are like,
I will pay you more if you add this.
Oh, yeah.
This is a real feature request, right?
everything else is a suggestion at best.
yes.
yeah, it sounds to me that, typically
in these conversations, I would
suggest, A niche for you to explore,
but I think you've already landed
on one that's worth exploring.
personally, I don't think
it's a bit in its current form
would be a bookkeepers thing.
I don't think they would, I don't
think bookkeepers swipe exactly.
some are young, I imagine
some swipe for other reasons.
but, but that's, besides
the point is you have.
You have worked within the
space of categorizing expenses.
You have thought a lot about this.
So you're interested in this and
there's some sense of that problem
existing, whether it's the bookkeepers
problem or their clients problem, or
who knows the tax authorities problem,
someone in this mess has a problem.
Maybe the solution is some kind of,
you'll have a chance for your, to
feed the, AI fear of missing out
thing, because maybe some of the
categorization can be even automated.
Igor: everybody thinks
about that and that's.
That's precisely why I don't want
to do it from this perspective,
because every, everyone wants to do
Eli: it sometimes a good
bit of UI can do that.
and maybe the problems you'll discover are
adjacent and you'll just understand them
because you understand the space well.
you understand what it is to be a
solopreneur, you understand what it
is to run an agency, you understand,
something about bookkeeping, and once
you talk to enough bookkeeper, you
understand more about their pains
with working these pesky clients.
and then there might be some kind of
a bridge that connects these things.
something.
and it's also possible that this
research will result in you realizing
that this niche is not the right one.
Now, it doesn't mean that the ideas
in ZWIT have no room in the world.
It only means you've invalidated
one niche and maybe you run out
of ideas and maybe you don't.
But in general, if there are a dozen kind
of interesting features in what you've
built, There should be at least a dozen
niches you can try to tackle with it.
Igor: Yes.
I always thought, sorry.
I know we're a bit at time, probably,
it's the thing that, stuck with me, I, I
got this comment on IndieHackers today,
about the landing page, And there was
this comment about changing the hero
title to just be something like expense
manager for freelancers or something.
But that's the thing.
I want to be that, I want this
to be another expense manager.
The point here is about, specifically
like helping bookkeepers essentially by,
by in, in freelancers or self employed
people's hands, helping bookkeepers
clean up that mess, first of all.
And second of all, To start claiming
deductions, because not a lot of people
who start businesses realize that, by.
Expensing
Eli: all this stuff.
how much deduction,
Igor: yeah.
Yeah, you can actually, you can
pay less on your tax return.
yeah, on your taxes.
Eli: Yeah, pay less taxes
probably, Not a good
Igor: title.
Eli: no.
I think it's probably an excellent.
So listen, there's like people buy
things for three primary reasons.
Everybody knows this.
Make money, save money, save time.
And make money is like the primary thing.
But save money is a really close second.
If you can show people that they
will pay you 50 bucks and they will
say 500, on, on that thing, then
that makes it a very obvious buy.
Now, if you say, you know what, you
won't pay anything until you save.
money on your, I'll take whatever a
percentage of your savings, or I'll
take, or, I'll take, you use it in
April and pay in whatever, June, right?
Igor: Yeah, I think TurboTax does it too.
Yeah, like you can pay for their
Eli: services.
Delay the payment, right?
that makes it obvious.
and if you have specific, so this is
like the originals of it use case, if
you can show specific cases of things
you didn't know you could deduct and
things you would have missed if you
didn't go through the manual process.
And here's the amount, here
are the amounts that you might
be missing, with like sample.
That might work, but again, the
solopreneurs you were talking about
in their initial stages, they don't
make enough to pay taxes, right?
And when someone is making enough to pay
taxes, Then they probably use a bookkeeper
and now it's the bookkeeper's problem.
so this is this is where you're looking
for a niche is not a niche of people.
it's a particular use case
for a particular person.
And I really liked the fact that
you don't want to go after the
generic expense manager kind of
thing, because that's generic.
It's like a very specific thing
for a very specific type of person
and a very specific problem.
You just.
Haven't found it yet.
Igor: that's what I fear the
most, to think of a solution
in search of a problem.
It's again, such a common phrase.
Eli: so here's here's a reframe.
A solution looking for a problem
is, is a derogatory term.
It basically means the solution that
does not have a problem that it solves.
I see.
Yeah.
But it doesn't have to be,
it can also be a process.
I have a solution, and now I'm actively
engaged in finding the right problem
for it, with the caveat that, yes, I
may need to adopt my solution a little
bit to fit the problem that I find.
But instead of a solution looking
for a problem as a generic kind of
description of a failed reality,
it's an actual active process.
One of the results is I did
not find a problem that fits
any version of the solution.
Another option is I actually did find
a problem and it requires a two and
a half degree shift in the solution.
And it's magical,
Igor: pivoting, right?
Is that,
Eli: it's a tiny micro pivot.
So you pivot the messaging
and the positioning a lot
more than you pivot the code.
That's basically what I'm going for.
Igor: Yeah, very interesting.
lots of thoughts, lots of questions
really, but I hate to keep you any longer,
but I love the conversation though.
It's man, there's so much in this.
I loved
Eli: it too.
it was great talking to you.
Eli Outro: Thanks for listening.
If you want to be a guest on the
show and talk through the problems
you're facing with your business.
You can send me a message on Twitter
@finereli, my DMS are always open.
And if you're ready for some
deeper work, I can actually help
you find product market fit for
whatever it is you're building.
You can find details about how this
works, how much it costs and what I can
promise you on my website at growthlab.so.
See you next time.