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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:33:14
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore, a story behind the Stone, a show where we talk with the people and organizations changing the way the world remembers. What if your final resting place helped protect a forest? In this episode, we're joined by Gillian Nye, Forest Memorial's manager at Better Place Forests, a nonprofit which operates nine conservation memorial forests across the United States, with locations stretching from the redwoods of California to the Berkshires of Massachusetts.
00:00:33:16 - 00:00:57:11
Speaker 1
Gillian brings us behind the scenes of how folks, including veterans families, are choosing legacy trees instead of gravestones, and how forest memorials are preserving natural landscapes for generations to come. If you care about legacy, nature, or just want to hear how one organization is making memorials both meaningful and regenerative, this episode is a must listen. Thanks for tuning in.
00:01:02:13 - 00:01:17:07
Speaker 1
Welcome to Story Behind the Stone Ashoori talk, service, sacrifice and story. My name is Matthew Cudmore and I'm so pleased to have as my guest today Gillian Nye, Forest Memorial's manager with Better Place Forest in California. Gillian, thank you for being on the show today.
00:01:17:08 - 00:01:18:22
Speaker 2
Thank you Matthew, it's a pleasure.
00:01:19:04 - 00:01:25:00
Speaker 1
Really excited to dig into Better Place for us. Can you share a little bit more about our place for us?
00:01:25:00 - 00:01:40:17
Speaker 2
To everyone that doesn't know better place forests. Our organization helps people place their ashes in nature at one of our nine protected memorial forests throughout the country. So people select a memorial tree that belongs to them.
00:01:40:17 - 00:01:41:01
Speaker 2
And
00:01:41:01 - 00:01:50:22
Speaker 2
they're able to commemorate their loved one at their tree and visit as they wish. And before we really dive in, I just want to say that a better place for us.
00:01:50:22 - 00:02:07:22
Speaker 2
We're so grateful for the service and dedication that our veterans have shown to the United States. And it's truly an honor for us to provide such a unique and natural way to celebrate their lives and create a lasting and peaceful tribute to their commitment.
00:02:08:01 - 00:02:15:05
Speaker 1
It's a better place for us. Tell me a little bit about the one that you are closest to. I know it's really special to you.
00:02:15:07 - 00:02:47:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, sure. So, like I said, we have nine forests throughout the country, and I, very close to our southern Mendocino coast forest in California, located in the town of Point Arena. It's our founding forest. So in 2016, our founder, Sandy Gibson, and his, childhood friends, actually, we were talking earlier about childhood friends and visiting, but, purchased 20 acres on the southern Mendocino coast.
00:02:47:06 - 00:02:50:21
Speaker 2
And with the idea that this would be a memorial forest.
00:02:50:21 - 00:03:02:03
Speaker 2
And I was lucky enough to. I live in this area, and I kind of got brought in to the, project through some friends. It is a beautiful mixed forest. So we have our,
00:03:02:03 - 00:03:02:13
Speaker 2
kind
00:03:02:13 - 00:03:14:21
Speaker 2
of iconic California native redwoods. We also have Douglas fir and ten oak trees, and it has a little perch overlooking the ocean, very protected with some developed trails.
00:03:14:22 - 00:03:37:12
Speaker 2
And on any given day, you'll find people kind of wandering through the trails, visiting their tree, visiting their loved ones final resting place. Maybe they're there selecting their own tree and person, or having a picnic. It's private to the people who've selected a tree or have a loved one's ashes there. So it's a really peaceful place.
00:03:37:13 - 00:03:40:06
Speaker 1
What drew you to Better Place for us in the first place?
00:03:40:07 - 00:04:00:12
Speaker 2
I had a friend who worked with, who was one of the first employees and she thought I would be a good fit, but, and I think the reason why I was a good fit and why this work has been so meaningful to me is that, I really love connecting with people. I really love stories and storytelling and sharing.
00:04:00:14 - 00:04:42:22
Speaker 2
I like creating intentional moments, so creating ceremony or ritual around experiences. I was a herbalist by trade and co-owned our local herbal apothecary and taught workshops and classes. So I had experience working with people and teaching kind of leading different, group activities. And it's been a really natural transition. What I didn't have was much experience with End of Life, and really it's been better place forests that has opened my mind and heart to how meaningful that phase of life is for all of us.
00:04:43:00 - 00:05:08:21
Speaker 2
And how much an impact each of our stories has on the people that we leave behind, and how we can kind of make everything kind of come together in this beautiful, special way by honoring our loved ones, wherever it may be. You know, it may not be in a better place. Forest, forest. But I love the way that people honor their loved ones, and it's very inspirational.
00:05:08:22 - 00:05:15:22
Speaker 1
When you're walking a family through Better Place for Us. What do you hear from them as they're kind of experiencing this for the first time?
00:05:15:22 - 00:05:52:16
Speaker 2
Mostly it's honestly, and and wonder and, a great, feeling of peace. So, you know, I mentioned I live here on the Mendocino Coast, and not everybody lives so rurally. So it's generally a pretty unique experience for people to come out to the forest and be there. I recently hosted a family, who were there to visit their their grandmother's tree, and they hadn't been to the forest before, and they were just blown away by how quiet it is and how peaceful it is.
00:05:52:20 - 00:06:17:06
Speaker 2
And the ways that they could hear the birdsong or the wind in the trees. And it it is a backdrop for a really lovely experience because it just settles you right in. I'm sure you and all of your visitors have had experiences where you've been walking through a park or spending time in nature and it kind of fast tracks you to a peaceful feeling.
00:06:17:06 - 00:06:40:22
Speaker 2
So that's what I mostly hear, and I hear a lot of gratitude. It's, very fulfilling work in that way, because most of the people I interact with, even though they may be experiencing a tragic grief or a very impactful grief, they are also experiencing appreciation of the beauty.
00:06:41:00 - 00:06:48:17
Speaker 1
So you have, you said it was nine locations across the United States. Have you visited any of the other locations?
00:06:48:23 - 00:07:22:04
Speaker 2
I visited most of them. So as my role as the Forest Memorials manager, I have the, honor and joy to be able to visit our our forests and work directly with our forest teams to help train them and onboard them to guide forest memorials, to work with guests and their families. And also to ensure that our forests are being maintained and, taken care of, developed in a in a wonderful way so that people have access to trails.
00:07:22:04 - 00:07:47:07
Speaker 2
And there's, quite a consideration for safety. I so I visited seven of our nine forest. I still have two that I hopefully will visit this this year. And they're all unique. Everyone is different. Actually. Our point Arena Forest is our smallest forest at, 40 acres. Now, our largest is over 200 acres. And we purchase high conservation value land.
00:07:47:07 - 00:08:08:19
Speaker 2
So land that might be slated for development or, use as a resource, and we protect it and we put it in, perpetuity for, visitation for people who select a tree and maintain the trails and access so that people can, you know, come and enjoy.
00:08:08:21 - 00:08:15:07
Speaker 1
What do you tell your employees about kind of the mission, the values and and and and the family experience as well.
00:08:15:10 - 00:08:50:14
Speaker 2
Our main mission is to offer people a space in nature for healing. And, integrating their grief into their lives. And so customer experience is top of mind for us. And we have been, beyond lucky to find incredible people to work in our forests. Most people are drawn to this work for their own personal mission or their own personal story generally, of loss or of some kind of healing in nature.
00:08:50:16 - 00:09:14:00
Speaker 2
So we have kind of, a, a progressive training where we're teaching people how to interact with customers. We've got the safety component of being out in a forest. And then we do a grief training. So honoring that many of our customers and guests are in some phase of grieving, or they will be at some point.
00:09:14:00 - 00:09:20:15
Speaker 2
And we want to make sure to meet them with compassion and empathy all along the way. Throughout the whole experience.
00:09:20:16 - 00:09:26:11
Speaker 1
You started on this journey, I think you mentioned earlier in 2018, but what would your 2018 person think about what you're doing.
00:09:26:11 - 00:09:55:19
Speaker 2
Today? I think they would be proud of my growth. Because, you know, as I said, I kind of came into this line of work without really knowing what end of life work meant. And I have learned so much from the families that I have had the opportunity to have. Everybody has shown me something. And, my intention is that I have also been able to have a positive impact on their lives.
00:09:55:21 - 00:10:21:08
Speaker 2
And I think that, you know, we we see grief in a lot of different ways. And a lot of times there is an overwhelming feeling of sadness and loss. And what the forest experience shows us is that in all death there is also growth. There's new growth, there's life. In the forest, we can literally see life sprouting from death.
00:10:21:10 - 00:10:59:01
Speaker 2
And I see that with our customers as well. We see children visiting their grandparents memorial site, and we see people who are pregnant coming to honor a loved one. And then years later, we see that child coming to visit as well. And it's not just with families who have have more, people coming through, but we see hope and, joy coming through or, you know, wonder at a bird or at the way that the rain stops right when it's time for the ceremony to begin.
00:10:59:03 - 00:11:07:20
Speaker 2
And so I just think there's there's been a lot of joy and growth and realizing that there's more to death than sadness and grief.
00:11:07:21 - 00:11:13:15
Speaker 1
I want to turn the lens to the families. What's it like to do a veteran burial at a better place for us?
00:11:13:15 - 00:11:48:05
Speaker 2
I'll admit that I didn't really have it on my radar, that that would be something I would experience when I first started this work. And interestingly, one of the very first forest memorials that we ever hosted throughout the entire company at our first Forest and Point Arena that I was present at and facilitated was for a military veteran, and his daughter was the memorial planner, and she had organized to have, flag ceremony and taps and a rifle salute.
00:11:48:05 - 00:12:13:14
Speaker 2
So that's, you know, we don't always have all three at one time. And it was incredibly poignant and meaningful for me. And I think I would say it really shaped my, my work in that we really want to accommodate all walks of life and, and really say yes to what people feel is important to honor their loved one.
00:12:13:16 - 00:12:57:03
Speaker 2
And this was just a a wonderful example and a wonderful way to start that, the way that the sound carries in the forest, I'm sure you can imagine, like listening to taps as it winds through the trees and kind of permeates down off the hillside, is it's so beautiful and kind of this, like, hauntingly wonderful way. And then I've always appreciated and I've had, the experience to be at many flag ceremonies in our forests, the dichotomy of something so kind of like precise and formal in a natural setting beneath the redwoods or beneath the aspen trees in our Flagstaff forest.
00:12:57:05 - 00:13:24:09
Speaker 2
It is. It's a beautiful photo, you know, it's a if in your mind, it's a beautiful image and it's very meaningful to people, to families and friends to have the worlds combine in that way. So to have the love of nature and the service, be wrapped up in one place with also all their loved ones, I think is really important to people.
00:13:24:11 - 00:13:35:21
Speaker 1
We were talking earlier as well about, you know, veterans and healing connection to nature. You know, that it must be absolutely transformative for the for the families in so many ways.
00:13:35:21 - 00:14:05:01
Speaker 2
I see in the veterans that I know that they often have a very strong connection to nature. Part I, I believe part of service and, commitment to, to one's country may also be in, a love of natural spaces. And, you know, in the United States, we have so many beautiful protected spaces. And I think that that's part of somebody's mission when they're when they're setting out to protect their country.
00:14:05:01 - 00:14:40:00
Speaker 2
And, be a part of, military service. And we know that people also find great healing in integrating military service experiences in nature that can offer really peaceful and, you know, non-judgmental and open space to, integrate and heal from being of service if that's needed for people. And just personally, I don't know if this is broad spread, but my, my grandfather was, served in World War Two.
00:14:40:02 - 00:15:11:21
Speaker 2
What was at the time the U.S. Army Corps. And he was a pilot. And he also, was just a fierce advocate and protector of nature and helped to develop hundreds and hundreds of protected, accessible acres in New Hampshire, where he lived, and I always just saw a real connection for him in his, his military service and his love of nature and kind of how proud he was of both and his family as well.
00:15:11:23 - 00:15:36:16
Speaker 2
And I think that that is kind of what set me on seeing this connection in this way. I meet veterans who are coming to the forest to select their tree, and you can see how meaningful it is to them and also for their families. They're really giving a gift, of a beautiful space for their people to remember them in what's really unique.
00:15:36:16 - 00:16:02:00
Speaker 2
And about what we do is that it's literally in a forest. And so there's trails. So it's very accessible. We set benches up for people to sit at. We begin each forest. My memorial by combining ashes with soil from our forest. So we do that at, dedicated memorial table in all of our forest. It's in a really beautiful setting.
00:16:02:04 - 00:16:29:07
Speaker 2
We invite everybody to participate by adding in the soil, and we have a beautiful bowl of dried flowers so that guests can participate. And, then at the tree, there's also time to share remembrances and, participate in literally placing the ashes beneath the tree and then sprinkling wildflower seeds around. So it's a very interactive and welcoming experience for people.
00:16:29:09 - 00:17:00:22
Speaker 2
And like I was saying earlier around walking people through, overall what I see as people feeling a sense of peace and an affirmation that this is what their person would have liked. So maybe the veteran didn't choose it themself, but their family feels like this is what they would have wanted. It's always an incredible honor to, to have a forest memorial for somebody who has personally selected their tree because we're fulfilling their wishes.
00:17:01:00 - 00:17:25:19
Speaker 2
I really appreciate that. And oftentimes, though some that a family will choose for their person who's just passed away, which is also special. But I think that it goes back to that cycle of life mentality where we're seeing we're seeing the cycle of life around us, and we're being reminded that there is hope or growth.
00:17:25:21 - 00:17:44:05
Speaker 2
You know, there is there is moving forward. And I think that our veterans really, show us perseverance and strength and, dedication. And I think that, you know, nature shows us that as well.
00:17:44:05 - 00:17:52:22
Speaker 1
Even now, hundreds of families, through this process, through this chapter of their lives, are there any that stick out to you in particular?
00:17:52:22 - 00:18:27:18
Speaker 2
I remember so many and they touched my heart. But you were speaking earlier before we started about, playing the song amazing Grace at different battlefields throughout the world. And we had a young man play, amazing Grace on his guitar in honor of his grandparents. His grandmother was, a military, a military nurse, and it was his tribute to them.
00:18:27:20 - 00:18:55:18
Speaker 2
And it was so beautiful. It was it was just an incredibly beautiful experience to see this young man sitting on the bench beneath his grandparents tree, playing amazing Grace and the, the, the way that it kind of floated out through the forest. And I remember the birds kind of chirping in like very snow white. And it's really just it can be really magical like that.
00:18:55:23 - 00:19:28:11
Speaker 2
I also have been very touched, like I mentioned by the flag ceremony, just the contrast of the of the two. Worlds and the visuals of that has been really personally touching to me. And I really love it when people bring photographs of their loved ones. A family that that really, I'm reminded by or reminded of often because I love the location of their tree and our point arena forest.
00:19:28:11 - 00:19:55:01
Speaker 2
I happen to walk by there a lot, but, this honorees name's Dennis, and he served in the military, and his wife and family brought a photograph of him. And it was at the table when we were preparing the ashes, and we brought it out to the tree, and he was in full uniform, and they all just talked a lot about how much he would have loved this experience and that he would have loved the forest.
00:19:55:01 - 00:20:05:01
Speaker 2
And I just have this memory in my mind of the picture of Dennis beneath his tree while we were having this ceremony. It just felt really special.
00:20:05:03 - 00:20:14:02
Speaker 1
Tell me more about, what people are looking for when they're selecting, like, what is the process they go through in selecting their tree or their family tree?
00:20:14:04 - 00:20:27:23
Speaker 2
We have an amazing team of people who can walk. People through the process. We have a really beautiful online forest tour, so you can hop on your computer and look at our forest, through our our online app.
00:20:27:23 - 00:20:34:13
Speaker 2
Or you can come to a forest in person, which is, I think, really special. And we invite anybody who wants to do that.
00:20:34:13 - 00:20:55:21
Speaker 2
To do so, we have a forest buggy and each of our forest I call the forest YouTuber, but it's, really a nice, Polaris vehicle that you that seats five so we can help people who have limited mobility to access the forest and look at the trees and we usually start by just kind of saying like, what feels important?
00:20:56:02 - 00:21:04:12
Speaker 2
What are you looking for? Or if they're here to find a tree for somebody who's already passed away, like what was what was important to them? Did they like morning light?
00:21:04:12 - 00:21:06:06
Speaker 2
or were they a real sunset person,
00:21:06:06 - 00:21:12:16
Speaker 2
It's very personal, as you can imagine, it's different for everybody. I kind of try to just follow their lead,
00:21:12:16 - 00:21:14:10
Speaker 2
generally for walking around.
00:21:14:10 - 00:21:34:19
Speaker 2
I encourage like at some point if you feel if you feel drawn to go off down that way, you let me know, because that's the way we'll go. And it is, it's pretty cool because sometimes people will say, like, I have no idea how this is going to happen. Like, how do you choose a tree? And then at some point in the visit, they'll say, like, that's there it is.
00:21:35:00 - 00:21:56:16
Speaker 2
I mean, the number of times that people have said, that's my tree is amazing. But we have a pretty, sophisticated system where we can be tracking what they like while they're looking at trees and make a list kind of like, compare and contrast list so we can look at it all together and say, like, this is what you liked about this.
00:21:56:18 - 00:22:01:06
Speaker 2
And again, you can do that online as well. So there's no pressure to come to the forest.
00:22:01:07 - 00:22:12:13
Speaker 1
You know, there must be a spare moment or, you know, people just kind of just crystallized for them. This is this is their tree. This is my tree. You must have to keep a box of tissues in that buggy.
00:22:12:15 - 00:22:39:10
Speaker 2
It's kind of I think that I haven't started crying yet today because I tend to get really emotional when I'm sharing, sharing how it has affected me. One of the things that has been, a really meaningful gift to me is helping people who are facing their own end of life. Maybe they have illness, find their tree and be able to be supportive to somebody while they are facing their death.
00:22:39:12 - 00:22:48:06
Speaker 2
And also considering what their final resting place will be has been, just a really beautiful and meaningful experience.
00:22:48:08 - 00:22:58:09
Speaker 1
I want to turn our lens a little bit, you know, to the to the future. What's going on a better place for us. And how can people kind of support the mission, get involved, stay in touch.
00:22:58:11 - 00:23:21:17
Speaker 2
I encourage everybody to look us up online. We have a beautiful website where better place forests? We also are on Instagram and on Instagram. If you follow Instagram, we share a lot of customer stories and beautiful photographs that are just really inspirational and fun. So I encourage people to check us out on Instagram under Better Place for us.
00:23:21:19 - 00:23:45:01
Speaker 2
We have recently transitioned to being a nonprofit organization, which we are very excited about. And hope for the next, near future. You know, after we kind of get all the dust settled, we'd like to really, focus on programing and partnerships, and I really have a vision of bringing more people to the forest to enjoy it.
00:23:45:01 - 00:24:08:23
Speaker 2
And I'm excited about people who might not have as much opportunity to get to nature, who might be, elderly or, requiring some, you know, having some health concerns. I'd like to bring those people to the forest. We love talking about what we do. As you can tell, it's really wonderful. And for our veterans, we actually also offer a 10% discount, just to honor the service.
00:24:08:23 - 00:24:13:00
Speaker 2
And, would really love to hear from anybody who's curious.
00:24:13:00 - 00:24:30:14
Speaker 1
You're so talented at painting this vivid picture of the experience, and I'm struck for anyone listening, you might be able to see this, but there is a beam of light literally, literally shining upon you. And I just, you know, it just it looks for us like, I can't I can't describe it.
00:24:30:14 - 00:24:36:21
Speaker 2
It's kind of funny that happening right now in my home office. And there's light coming. Yeah.
00:24:36:22 - 00:24:54:23
Speaker 1
And it's it's very forest like, you know, I can just imagine just that transcendental, transformational experience of families are having that you're enabling. What better place for us. And so I just want to thank you, Jolene, for coming on the show today and for chatting, sharing a little bit more. We're cheering you on and this in this next chapter for Better Place for us.
00:24:54:23 - 00:25:02:14
Speaker 1
We hope that listeners will will stay tuned, on this journey. And again, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate your time.
00:25:02:16 - 00:25:12:16
Speaker 2
Matthew. It's really been a pleasure. And I look forward to, you know, seeing what happens with Memory Anchor. And now that I'm a podcast listener, I will stay tuned as well.
00:25:12:17 - 00:25:26:00
Speaker 1
Just glad to have you on board. For our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Better place for us is on, a better place for us calm and on the socials. Better place for us. Thank you again, Charlene, for for joining us.
00:25:31:14 - 00:25:51:00
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath. We air every Thursday at 10 a.m. eastern on the Red Cross Radio Network. Thank you for tuning in.