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The cognitive edge podcast is designed to help you gain an advantage in all things thinking, learning and understanding. This podcast is brought to you by Strat Futures Pty Limited, the developer of the cognitive readiness and resilience. It is an evidence-backed digital platform for leaders to enhance cognitive performance. We deliver actionable cognitive fitness enhancements based on user needs, including focus techniques, productivity tools, critical thinking and decision frameworks and biological optimisation. Supported by practical training, data-driven insights, and a peer community, we empower users to build resilience, make better decisions, and thrive cognitively in a digital world.
Miah Hammond-Errey (00:00)
My guest today is Jessica Spendlove. Jessica is one of Australia's leading performance dietitians, turned executive wellbeing coach, consultant and speaker. Starting as a national swimmer herself, she has spent well over a decade working with professional athletes.
That includes more than 25 seasons in professional sport with clients spanning Olympic medalists, world record holders, NRL, AFL, rugby union, basketball and netball teams. She advises major corporates and the ADF School of Special Operations. She hosts the Stay at the Top podcast and is about to release her first book this year for the long run, Build Your Daily Operating System for Energy, Recovery and Wellbeing. Jess, thanks so much for joining me on the Cognitive Edge.
Jess Spendlove (00:41)
Thank you for having me, Miah. I'm looking forward to today's conversation.
Miah Hammond-Errey (00:45)
I'm coming to you today from the lands of the Gadigal people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging and acknowledge their continuing connection to land, and community. So Jess, the health industry is rife with lots of disinformation, misinformation. What's the biggest myth you see high performance believing about cognitive performance and nutrition?
Jess Spendlove (01:08)
Goodness, β there's a few I think.
we're looking for the edge and it can be really easy to kind of get caught up in the 30 second, 60 second reels that we're seeing, which is often, you know, the fasting protocols or the supplements and you know, maybe we'll get to some of the supplements. β and there's a space and a place potentially for that, but what we actually need to come back to is the foundations, you know, what are the daily behaviours that we do every single day that are going
to yield the biggest impact and that's where I like to start. So it's nearly like the inverse of the pyramid that we're seeing in social media land and then flipping that and going every single human eats every day, we sleep every day, we breathe every day, you know we should be moving every day. Let's start there that's where we're going to get the best bang for buck and then when we want to layer in potential protocols on top of that then we'll see if they are actually right for us
Miah Hammond-Errey (02:00)
What do you see as the difference between general well-being and peak performance, whether that's athletic or high stakes decision making?
Jess Spendlove (02:11)
Yeah, for me, I think it's hard to separate the two because I work at the intersection and when you're, you know...
wired like that, I really do see the two. Whereas I think if I was to separate general wellness is generally a bit more fluffy and it's a bit β not as precise and not as targeted. So everything I talk about is very, we do this for this purpose and this is how you should feel. And it's really connecting those dots on those three things, like not just the what, but the why, and most importantly, how that should show up.
I'm a big believer in principles, but it's really looking at what are the drivers that are going to elevate our wellbeing, both today, tomorrow, and for the long run, hence the book, but what are also the principles that are either the same or intersect that then drive the performance outcome?
think
about my own background, technically, I'm a clinical and a sports dietitian by qualifications, but even that, like you go through uni for five years, they really train you to be a clinical dietitian, which is very much around the wellbeing and working in the hospital and chronic disease side of things. And then that sports side of things, which for me, I talk about as performance is layered additionally on top of that. So yeah, I think the general wellbeing can just be like, eat
more vegetables and eat more fibre and yes people should definitely be doing that but the performance conversation to that is you know the why maybe around the microbiome and the protein conversation which is huge for so many reasons but it's not just you know eat more protein it's do this because it stabilizes your appetite
which stabilises your energy because of your blood sugar levels, which also helps from a body composition lens. So it really is more targeted.
Miah Hammond-Errey (04:05)
I've had the pleasure of hearing you speak. And that the stabilising energy, the how and the why and elevating well being and performance really stick out.
In your view, what are the foundational building blocks of good cognitive health and what are those base layers that we need to put in first?
Jess Spendlove (04:22)
Yeah, it's, β you know, obviously nutrition, like starting there, that's kind of where it all began for me. And, know, when it particularly comes to cognitive performance, brain health, but also of course, physical performance, you know, what we feel our body with is everything. determines the substrate, you know, what is available for our brain, for our body to then, then use that. And yes, that is the what, you know, when we look at the types of nutrients, but a really overlooked piece of the puzzle, which I even start with,
before that is what is the rhythm? What is your rhythm of your day look like? And if what you were doing from a nutrition, from an exercise, from a sleep point of view, if there is no rhythm or consistency there, then that is feeding into your brain, your cognitive performance, your physical performance. And so even before we start to look at the what, and we can definitely get into that, this is more, okay, well, can you just standardise the times that you eat and the size of the meals that you
having and the gaps between them because when I talk to people and you know I sit across a variety of industries as well whether it's corporate or defense or elite sport but
there is a lot of chaos in behaviours because if we think specifically, you know, the corporate world and hybrid work, well, when we all used to go to the office at the same time, five days a week, that provided structure. But now we're often at home or in the office and all of these kinds of anchor points change. So I guess there's the what you're eating and then how you're eating. And a big part of that is also your hydration because your brain, I love this stat, is
close to 75 % water. So when we think about that, of course, if you are hydrated or dehydrated, that is going to largely impact every element of your cognitive performance from your focus to your attention to your skills and your decision-making. And it only needs to be off very, very slightly, like 1 % for that to be impacted. β You know, then of course, definitely sleep, very important.
from what happens when we're in our deep restorative sleep. You know, we now know that the glymphatic system is activated in our deep sleep, which is basically this brain waste clearing system, which comes and removes all the toxins that have built up for the day. So again, the consistency with sleep, probably the biggest, most important thing, and maybe the hardest for people, is the time they go to bed and the time they wake up.
Miah Hammond-Errey (06:58)
I'd love for us to come back and just quickly touch on transitions because I feel like sometimes we talk about these as ideals and
and not every transition is as easy to get that rhythm back and that maybe that should be a priority rather than worrying about you know the exact amount of sleep away but understanding that we have transitions and we need to update our rhythms better.
Jess Spendlove (07:20)
I talk about this a lot in the book and I specifically call these pillars that I'm going to touch on the five you know which are nutrition, sleep, exercise, stress and recovery and connection. I call them rhythms in the book because it is about finding your rhythm with those areas in the season of life that you're in.
Exercise was the next one I was going to touch on and you there's so much there from you immediately around how we feel like you definitely never regret a workout but a lot of that even has to do with the biochemistry and the physiology of what our body is manufacturing after we Exercise, you know, yes the endorphins but we now even know that there's these myokines and you know BDNF and all of these really protective amazing
compounds, which is so great from a brain health and a cognitive performance side of things. Obviously looking at how we can manage our stress and I'll put my hand up and I'll say this is probably for me the one I've struggled with the most. think when you're driven and you're high performing, like you can do it all until you can't.
So the biggest interest piece for me in the recovery space, which elites bought in the military understand they protect, they know like high stress requires high focus protected recovery. We don't seem to get that in the corporate world. I know the session that...
you saw me speak on was largely nutrition but with the keynotes that I do in the corporate world I speak on you know these five areas and I always survey them before and this is the one area where is there is the biggest gap between what the you know the elite athletes and the military are doing and what's happening in the corporate world and and some of it is the beliefs you know it's still a luxury some of it is the mindset around I don't have time and then
the last piece which is generally around 10 % go we actually value it we try and protect it but we're just struggling to figure out the how and for me the biggest
benefit there from a cognitive performance and just an overall health perspective are what I call brain breaks. these are the daily micro moments of a minute or two or five minutes or if you've got 10 minutes, but it's really about having intentional stimulant free time where you can down regulate, whether that's some breath work strategies, whether that's a lap around the block. What it isn't is lining up for a coffee with your social media ads checking because you're just stimulating yourself more.
what it is is removing all of those imports and just having a moment to come down. And the very last one I'll touch on
is the connection piece and for me that's that's kind of multi-layered it's connection to your own purpose which is your values and are you operating like that but also connection to people that matter healthy relationships and so for me those five areas and you know if i was sitting here and we were talking even like more physical β health or physical performance they would still be my five areas because you know the mind body connection you can't separate the two what's
going on in our mind impacts what's going on in our body and vice versa.
Miah Hammond-Errey (10:28)
absolutely agree. One of the things that all our beta customers have found is that relationship between the physical and the cognitive. I mean, of course, the human body is interconnected. But often we don't think of it in that way. And so many of our users talk about the fact that, you know, minor changes in sleep timing have quite a big impact for them cognitively, or, know, whatever it is.
So I love the five pillars. take us to the transitions.
Jess Spendlove (10:56)
I think, you know, that's as well why my work has evolved because it was my own experience as an elite athlete under-fueled, not intentionally, but just not grasping what I needed as a swimmer, swimming four hours a day around school, And so unintentionally ran myself into the ground, worked with a sports dietician, and then really felt that shift from under-fueled to fueled.
initial stage but you know fast forward to 15 years into my career and you know moving out of just elite sport and thinking how can I take my work and help more people coupled with my own burnout experience which I briefly mentioned coupled with becoming a new mum recently that there's been a lot of things where this work has just evolved for me and in the transitions piece yeah I really believe it's about meeting people where they're at in the current
season of life. High performers are the classic, I'm referencing my best day and my best season ever and that's my bare minimum. forever more.
Miah Hammond-Errey (11:56)
I'll set that bar forevermore.
Jess Spendlove (12:00)
And it's like, okay, you're talking about a 20 year old when you were at uni and you had all this time or whatever that might be. And now you're like a 39 year old mom with a 15 month old who doesn't have the same 24 hours in the day, speaking of myself, whatever your circumstances or whether you're navigating midlife, you know, these transitions, these hormonal shifts, whether your career shifting, whether you've got a really, you know,
higher demand project, whatever that might be, it's coming back to these five pillars or rhythms and thinking where are they at and what is the opportunity right now? And also what can I do on my busiest day, not my best? And that needs to become the baseline. And sure you can have your stretch days or your stretch goals, but when your stretch goal is your bare minimum, you're setting yourself up for failure.
And so yeah, I really live this work, I breathe this work. I've now put it into a book because this is what I see across anyone I would classify as a high performer, which are the types of people you would be serving in all of your areas as well. β And the one thing I'll say that the reason I landed on the word rhythm, I've always exercised, and I'm a morning A type.
Miah Hammond-Errey (13:14)
how on earth do you manage that with being a parent? Because that's the biggest loss I have being a mom. I've had to learn to not work out at 5am.
Jess Spendlove (13:18)
Well.
Yes, well this is
what I have now learned as well and I've had to make peace with because, and for quite a few months I was in analysis paralysis. Like if I couldn't work out, I basically didn't work out. And I was like, there has to be an in-between. how do I make this shift? And yes, 5 a.m. or 6 a.m. is my preferred time. When that doesn't happen, which is most days, well what's plan B? Because plan A right now isn't serving me. So, you know, it's looking at the days and I'm sure like,
yourself, you you've got different days. Like I mentioned, we've got the at home, at work days. Like I know I've got different childcare days. So I've now just kind of figured out plan A, B and C for the different days. And it's really this mindset of something is better than nothing. And the reason I exercise is for my mood because when I don't exercise, my goodness, like how I'm showing up at work, at home, I'm very snappy. I'm not handling the things, but you know,
Yeah, I didn't get my 45 minutes in the gym at 5 a.m. that I want to be doing, but I got a 20 minute walk or a 20 minute at home workout. I got something and that finding this new rhythm with exercise, which has been a huge adjustment mentally and physically has really helped with that. So yeah, that's how I've, you know, been navigating this transition as well.
Miah Hammond-Errey (14:45)
Yeah,
it is is huge. Becoming a mom, think on many levels. And that was a big one for me. if someone wants to genuinely improve their overall cognitive function and performance from each of the pillars, where do they start? What's the first thing they need to look at?
Jess Spendlove (15:01)
Yes, you know, nutrition, could obviously say so much, but let's start there. And I kind of already mentioned the looking at your day, like looking at the inputs of your day. What I typically see is the front end of the day, there's either nothing because someone's fasting and they think that's good, especially they've heard maybe from a cognitive side of things, or they don't like breakfast, or they're just having something really small. β And then the byproduct of that is across the day, it generally gets
gets bigger. And so what I'm talking about is a gradual increase. So what people need to understand when their day looks like with their food, their energy will not be stable and their focus will not be stable because your focus and your energy outputs determined by your inputs. And so when your inputs largely food, which largely drives blood sugar levels, which largely impacts both of those things, then
it's going to be inconsistent and in particular in the afternoon and evening. So everybody will experience an afternoon dip, but when you start to then even out what your day looks like, even if what you're currently doing, if breakfast becomes bigger, if the time gap between breakfast and lunch matches lunch to dinner, or if one of those is quite big. So for example, lunch to dinner for most people is quite big. Having a substantial mid afternoon snack
to bridge that time gap. So that's what I'm kind of talking about. Size, timing, and also gaps, even if they start there. And then in terms of the composition, like there's definitely a huge, huge piece here. And all I'll kind of say, β so we don't make the whole, I guess, episode about this is I have a framework, I call it all the elements.
It's really about your four key elements on how to build a plate, which is your protein, your high fiber carbohydrates, your colors, your fruits, salads or vegetables, and then your healthy fats. And even at a starting point, if you have your protein, your colors and your carbohydrates, if you have them in equal amounts, even if you start there, that is gonna be a huge stabiliser when it comes to your cognitive performance.
And what for most people that will mean is having more at breakfast than they're comfortable with, but taking a mindset of I'm training myself to know how I need to eat. And like any other form of training, the more you do it, the easier it gets, or you just continue to adapt. And what you will find if you can be persistent with that, you will see how that shows up in the afternoon. And I call that the flow on effect. Because what's generally happening, people are living very reactively.
We wait for the gap in our diary. We wait for ourselves to get hungry. We wait until there's space to have a break, have a meal, whatever it is. And in all five of these areas, probably like the key takeaway is figuring out a way that you can switch from being reactive to proactive. Because when you do that, you don't just stabilise your energy, which you will, which is great, but you elevate it. So what I'm talking about is creating it.
optimising it and then sustaining it and this is a game changer and it's not even like don't get me wrong there's plenty of things we can go through it but what I'm talking about here is really just moving some things around and being a bit more intentional with the times and the sizes of what you're eating just to start with in that area.
Miah Hammond-Errey (18:34)
diving a little bit further into the nutrition side of things.
how can we feel better when we're training?
how do people understand what additional fuel they need for for regular training, not necessarily peak performance? Because I think when we talk about, regular consumption of energy, at some point, if you are training regularly, you really need to get that
down pat, you can't continue to, to perform at that level if you're not actually fueling. But I know for my own personal experience, I don't think I fuel that differently on the days I do high intensity intervals versus the days I do heavy lifts. I probably have a little bit more carbs. But aside from that, what is the difference when we're doing different kinds of training?
Jess Spendlove (19:16)
Yeah, and great question. And diving a bit deeper. that third, a third, a third is really that like start there as a starting point because, you know, most people are not doing that. Then I guess the next piece of that is you can start to adjust those plate ratios. And so again, this is like definitely included in the book, all of these like keynotes that I do, you would have seen my plate models and things that I like, but sticking with that all the elements, then you start to adjust some of those ratios.
But what a lot of people think is, when I need more I adjust all of them and when I need less I adjust all of them and that's not the case. So your protein and your healthy fats seven days a week should really stay the same. So that third of your plate coming from protein, breakfast, lunch and dinner, seven days a week. And the reason for that is whether it's appetite control, whether it's recovery because you are training most days, the elements that shift a little bit are really the carbs and the colours and around that high intensity training.
one way you can fuel depending on the time that you train is to just increase that carbohydrate component slightly. And so while I said a third, third, a third, you know, some people on here that are quite sedentary in their days, except for maybe that training session, well, maybe that carbohydrate component is more like a quarter on their standard day, but their high intensity day, whether they train around lunch, before or after, or in the evening or the morning, then maybe that increases to a third or a little bit more.
Otherwise, the other option which can work for most people is that your seven day a week meal framework really does stay about the same. know, that third of a plate protein or for women, you know, I would say around 30 grams of high biological value protein, β which would mean that's coming from really the meat component. Maybe we can get into that, but β because it is just the highest quality protein and it's so important in this perimenopause menopause transition.
And then, you know, looking at the fiber component, which is, you know, around, if you can, like eight to 10 grams per meal, like it's quite a lot. So you really do need quite a lot of veggies and quite a lot of grains. And so if you keep that all kind of quite stable, then it really is your fueling framework, which is really looking at.
Well, depending on the session, if I've got, you know, 45 or a 60 minute hit, maybe I just need to add in, it's something I call a primer. And it's a really, it's carbohydrates in the kind of 15 to 30 minutes before a session, which is serving to fuel you. And you might also do a version of that before like a heavy weight session. And so without knowing the specifics, I would normally recommend around half a gram per kilogram of body weight.
know for most you could just anywhere between say 20 to 40 grams β is a nice kind of number in terms of that carbohydrate amount right before a session. So like a piece of fruit is one of the best options even some dried fruit and then you know I know there's some conversation around all protein before and after
It really just depends on your overall distribution. Like if you're hitting your protein pulses, three meals and a really good snack a day, you're really ticking most of those boxes. So the question around, you know, do I need additional protein before or after? Like if you can move a meal to work for all of those things, you're ticking a lot of boxes there. So it's really around that timing. But yeah, hopefully that kind of helps us at least a starting point. It's really that baseline framework. And then on the day
you need more, you just add slightly more in around your training to fuel you and then also help you recover.
Miah Hammond-Errey (23:01)
Thank you. That's great. You mentioned protein pulsing there, which is essentially as I understand it, including protein in each of the meals to have a more stable energy and focus. How does it specifically affect brain function, obviously not just for physical energy?
Jess Spendlove (23:16)
Yeah, for me, it's really
stabilising or elevating and stabilising energy and then the flow on effect in terms of appetite control and blood sugar levels. β With that, it's not the only, you know, strategy. Like I would still want to be coupling that with say the brain breaks as such. when you pulse your protein, I guess it's a more indirect relationship on how it will affect your energy and your focus.
But we still want to be, because we only have so much cognitive capacity within our day, and it's really around how do we want to use it and how do we want to restore it and prolong it as much as possible. And so that nutrition piece is a huge bit, but this brain break concept I've mentioned a few times, for me that's really about aligning with a biological rhythm. And a lot of, again, some of the things I'm really interested in is
Our human biology has not changed in thousands or millions of years. What has changed is our environment and technology. So if we can work with our biology and there's a few ways to do that, sleep and your circadian rhythm is a huge one. But one of the other ones is your ultradian rhythms and it's this idea of these micro cycles and how we've got peak performance pulses, but then we have these lulls, which is this restoration. And so the idea of having a few brain breaks a day to down
regulate to reduce your stress response again you could talk to this more than even me but then operating in this biological way that we are wired to get the most out of it have a short moment to to reset and then go again and then from a cognitive performance side of things we get so much more
Miah Hammond-Errey (24:59)
I do love where you're going, because there is a difference between what we see so much in kind of the hyping community, which is about how you optimise. And don't get me wrong, I love optimisation. β But there's a difference between optimising and then having to operate at a really high level in not your best moment. And for a lot of the high stakes decision makers we work with, they don't have those luxuries. I mean, they're often operating in really physically difficult environments,
high cognitive load where their sleep is not great or they have you know very limited sleep or and or stress for prolonged periods and so it's amazing that in those environments you still can get peak performance but it is about adjusting other parts of that rhythm to make to make that work and down regulation
is a huge part of that.
I'm gonna hard pivot though. Let's go back to hydration. At what point of hydration does it degrade our performance? And what does it mean to hydrate better aside from drinking more water?
Jess Spendlove (26:03)
Yes, there's a lot to say there. think, you know, starting at the top, I mentioned earlier, brain, you know, if we think about our whole body, like our body is around 50 % water, but our brain specifically is close to 75%. It's 73%. So if we even just think about us as beings, but then specifically when we're really kind of zoning in on this cognitive side of things, our hydration is a huge factor.
I feel like we are in the era of hydration drinks and what do we need to do? And like disclaimer, I'm affiliated with an Australian brand. So for me, with the types of people I work with, I do believe there is benefit, but it's not everybody has to have an electrolyte drink every single day. I think the conversation around particularly sodium, which is an electrolyte, it's the main electrolyte we sweat.
So everyone sweats salt, your sweat sodium concentration will differ person to person.
But it's a really interesting conversation because how, you I grew up and I'm sure the same, was kind of like salt bad and be careful of salt with blood pressure and this narrative. if you have high blood pressure, that is a factor.
For me, outside of that though, if I think about the high performing, highly active community where they're sweating a lot or they're exercising a lot, there's often a need to replace a little bit extra. And this is where electrolytes again in the right kind of format can come in because when we actually, and there was a β really interesting study done around rehydration and different drinks and looking at what is the best drink to optimally rehydrate.
And rehydrate means not just consuming but retaining and this is a really important point because the sodium element in milk was found, know, the combination, the natural combination of milk and this is how the whole like choccy milk post games or whatever, which a lot of people have probably heard of, like that's how this came to be. Like there's actually a really robust, you know, scientific study showing that that is the best rehydration formula because of the carbs and the protein and
the electrolytes. β And so if we extrapolate these out
The beautiful thing about good quality electrolyte products is that the sodium concentration helps replenish and also the magnesium and potassium because we do lose these as well and they're really important from a lot of functions like nerves and muscles and you know, contracting and functioning but the main thing we lose is sodium. So replacing that not only replaces what we've lost but it helps us retain more fluid. β
And if we think from a cognitive side of things and there's research in the sports space or the military, know, where there's...
skills and very, you know, decision making, which is really skill dependent. And then also, you know, corporate workers as such where, you know, there's focus and there's tasks across the board. There's research showing that even as little as 1 % drop in hydration can largely impact the fatigue or the focus or the decision making or the skill execution. And that's greater than the physical. So they will impact the physical as
well if you're dehydrated you know you fatigue faster because your heart rate has to pump harder and so I think you know understanding that
having a bit of an awareness on your own hydration and honestly the easiest way to do that is the colour review urine. It gives you immediate feedback every time you go to the bathroom. Yes if you take supplements that can tint the colour post that next one but what I'm talking about is monitoring it day to day each time you go to the bathroom. The ideal is like a pale yellow and I'm sure when you wake up in the morning it's
much darker than that and then across the day depending on how you consume hydration and
it really is the rhythm of hydration as well because your bladder can only actually retain so much. So if you're just not having anything, sculling a lot, you're going to be losing more. so trying to consistently consume it across the day. And then, yes, if you're exercising, more in and around that, which could be part of your fueling strategy and then your rehydration strategy. β But for me, look, personally, and the types of people I work with are quite high.
know, high performing like yourself, β from that cognitive side of things, from long work days, from hours at the computer, it's probably one of the most underutilised strategies. And so even the need for electrolytes aside, I find most people are looking for another option. They probably, you know, they might not, they're trying to probably drink less coffee. And so even just from that like palatability side of things, it can be a useful tool. β
And I think the other really important thing to know is every single one of us loses half a litre to a litre across the night. Just breathing and environments that we're in. β most of us are waking dehydrated. β know, back in the pro sport days, I used to super glamorous get to measure all of the athletes hydration, which yes, is exactly as it sounds. would urinate in a cup and I'd have a little, it's called a refractometer and you would test their hydration.
this up is these people are paid to train they know the importance of hydration and you know β god I couldn't even tell you a stat but over 50 % would be coming in dehydrated and this is like we're monitoring them we're testing them we're giving them guidelines and so the reason I call that out is you know I can only imagine how that translates into all of us and so this hydration piece of really even starting your day you know whether it's a glass of water whether it's a glass of electrolyte
depending on if you exercise in the morning, whatever that is, but really then thinking about that rhythm and monitoring it yourself and aiming for that pale yellow. If it's clear you've probably consumed too much in a go, but if it's dark you're dehydrated and that's going to be impacting every aspect of your performance, but definitely your cognitive.
Miah Hammond-Errey (32:28)
Is
Jess Spendlove (32:28)
β
Miah Hammond-Errey (32:29)
What
the most common foods or habits that you see executives and athletes consuming that are sabotaging their performance?
Jess Spendlove (32:38)
Look, I think a big one is most people underutilise snacks. They don't really see them for the value that they can bring. so guess sabotaging it either by trying to avoid them or just thinking that they're really small. Like it's an apple or it's a muesli bar or it's a yoghurt. And it's coming back to that all the elements framework that actually applies at least for most people for one good snack. You might need more because you might have long days or really active or whatever. But for most people need one good snack.
and it's often a lot bigger than what they think. So it's the yogurt with the apple, maybe with the nuts. And the benefit of that is giving your body and your brain what it needs to satisfy you and boost your energy. But then likely it will maybe slightly decrease what you're having at night. And so if you come back to that, most people increase the volume of food across the day. If we're trying to then even it out a bit more, that pulse in the afternoon is a really important piece of that. So I think that's
That's a huge one. Most people try to avoid them, don't think they should have them or don't really see the value when it can really deliver a lot. And the other one is, you know, a lot of people are dabbling with fasting for a few reasons.
And my view is it's an advanced tool for an advanced user. And so I guess what I mean by that is you really need to have all of these other things in place first and then still assess, this actually the right thing for me? And because what I then hear is people are trying to fast, but then they train in the morning and they try and fast by pushing their breakfast back, but they would actually benefit more from fueling and having that breakfast around to improve their results and then manage
their appetite and their energy and their focus across the rest of the day. So there's this real like and it's coming from a great place like I hope that doesn't sound negative. I really understand people are doing this because they want like a positive outcome whether that's the the mental side of the like the the cognitive clarity and performance whether it's shifting some body composition, β whether it's from a longevity like whatever it is.
But there's nuance and in most instances, most people would benefit more from the rhythm, the elements, a little bit of periodization with the fueling in and around. And that's actually going to support the goals that they've got, whether it's the cognitive focus, whether it's the longevity, whether it's the body composition, that's actually going to support that more.
And because, as I of mentioned at the start, we hear things, we do them, but we don't run our own experiments. And so we quite easily forget how we felt before we adopted a new way of being. And so I really like, know, most people understand it from a business sense, like A-B testing. You know, we talk about it from marketing or funnels or landing pages or whatever. Have an A-B test approach with your health.
change one thing over two weeks and measure all the data points that matter. Measure your focus, you know, not just in the morning, but in the afternoon. What about your appetite? What about your energy? What about your sugar cravings? These are all little signs and signals on how you are operating as a being, but all of that is really going to impact the cognitive performance side of things.
Miah Hammond-Errey (35:59)
I think that's such an important point because I feel like so much of our nutrition and performance focus is based on body composition discussions. Like it's led by how do I look a certain way? How do I achieve a certain percent body fat or you know, a specific, composition rather than how is this going to make me feel great? How am I going to perform well? How am I going to show up, you know, and feel great, make great decisions, be a great human,
And I think so much of that discussion is led by body composition. I think that's really disappointing. And it underserves people because,
Jess Spendlove (36:32)
100%, you know, for me, body composition is an objective metric. And I talk a lot on my podcast, in the book, with my clients about subjective metrics, you know, the metrics that matter. And the three that I call out often are energy, appetite and performance, both physical and cognitive. And when you lead with them, when you change behaviour and you monitor those, which are always available to you, yes, some of those things you can track with wearables, but really the superpower is I always have access to how I feel, how my
energy is, how my appetite is, how my cravings are, how did I train in that session, what was my focus like. Really you've always got access to that and so when you change behaviour and follow those
the objective metric that you're chasing, which is the body composition element will follow. And the thing is that objective metrics, take time to shift. And, you know, he won't mind me mentioning this because I've interviewed him on different β keynotes and podcasts and things, a client of mine, like this is, these are elite athletes, Dane Rampe, Sydney Swans, like he's, this is in his 14th season. So we worked together only relatively recently. And I remember thinking, how much am going to
influence someone who's already, you know, 12, 13 seasons under their belt, he's figured out what works for him. And this conversation around making decisions on these metrics that matter over the body composition, because in any sport and like you've just said, drives conversation for everyone. But definitely in really high performing environments. And I was like, if we can just shift this, you know, trust the process a little bit, like challenge some long held beliefs.
And this is what I say to people, when you're changing, things are going to bounce around a bit. But if you stick to a process, focus on the metrics that matter, give yourself six or 12 months, and then really do the due diligence on that testing. In his instance, he was like, I've never had better skin folds, which is body fat. I've never had more muscle. I've never had more energy. I've got a second wind. and so even just there with someone who was already doing 90 % of the things right, who was seasoned, who had really figured
out what worked for him, seeing the difference that made there, it kind of reaffirms everybody needs to know this.
Miah Hammond-Errey (38:44)
I think one of the things you're hitting on, and we experienced it too in the platform, people assume that when you are in a high stakes decision, or you're an elite athlete, that you somehow expand your level of load and focus. And it's not true.
And so it's always hard, like you say, you've got to focus on those metrics that really matter, because it's just easy to get kind of swayed by what else is going on
I wanna go a little bit to gut health and the brain, because obviously there's a lot of buzz about the gut brain connection. What does the science actually show?
Jess Spendlove (39:21)
I think the biggest thing for people to know and where my interest lies is, I mean there's a lot, but...
the integrity of your gut wall. So we call this intestinal permeability. β People might have heard it from the lens of leaky gut, β but what we're actually talking about is the integrity of the gut wall. Like this is how anything in our body either then enters like the system, know, goes into the bloodstream, circulates around the body, potentially crosses the blood brain barrier. Like the gut is where things either exit β intentionally transfer or if
our system is weak, then anything can slip through. And so what we're really talking about here is strengthening the gut wall and looking at the fibres and the prebiotics and the probiotics. But it's not just what we eat, it is also non dietary factors. Managing stress is a huge one. And again, the gut brain connection, β what is going on in our mind impacts what is going on in our gut and vice versa. Our gut also is a manufacturing facility.
So a lot of neurotransmitters are manufactured in the gut. The vagus nerve, the biggest nerve in our body is this main connection and the way that our gut and our brain communicate. So we're just gonna have this picture. What I like to talk about is they're kind of like best friends that are communicating to each other on every platform, probably like you are with your best friends. You've probably got the WhatsApp, you've probably got the Instagram memes, you've probably got β some other form of community, the Facebook.
invites you know so your gut and the brain are kind of doing the same thing communicating in every in every way shape and form but what we allow from our gut into the rest of our body needs to be a huge focus and that is really around what we eat how we manage our stress it's also around disease it's around toxins β probably the biggest and this is the one I do want to call out
ultra-processed foods and when people think of ultra-processed foods, most people get most things that sit in that category. We think about the fried foods and the takeaway foods and all the things that we really understand. But one area...
is around how not all protein is created equally. You know, there's this whole, need more protein, we need to pulse our protein. I've literally sat here saying that and a lot of people think, okay, well I've got to get, I'll just get the shake, the ready-made shake or I'll get the protein bar. And then if you actually look at the label on some of those or most of those, is sentences long, words you can't pronounce, numbers, and that is filled with fillers.
sweeteners and they are some of the worst ultra processed foods. I'm really concerned that that is going to be something we're probably already starting to see it in different way shapes and forms but when we are consuming a lot of ultra processed foods aside from some of the stats around chronic disease if we the integrity of our gut wall it compromises it when the they're called junctions but it's basically if you think about like a house with bricks
you obviously don't want any cracks in the cement.
few issues in the structure of your house. It's kind of like that with your gut, although the gut has the ability to tighten them and loosen them. And so by doing the meditation, by down regulating, by reducing your stress, by eating more fibre, by hydrating, by eating more prebiotics and probiotic rich foods, these things help strengthen the gut wall. And so that's probably the biggest thing I want people to understand that, yes, it is about what you eat, but it is also about how you manage your stress.
and that overall piece of the puzzle. And yeah, you know, with your gut, like again, kind of like going to the bathroom, what I was talking about, monitoring it, everyone has their own rhythm there. β And that is the best indicator of how that's going. And the thing is, what I see is a lot of people in high pressure environments tolerating gut symptoms, which...
are an indicator, like they're an indicator of how you're operating. And when you are stressed, symptoms will flare up more, because again, the relationship and the vagus nerve. β
But if you have symptoms flaring up, just be curious with that and consider this an area for you to dive into more, both from what you should be consuming, more plants, know, 30 plants a week is a bit of a magic number from the American Gut Project. But then also thinking like your prebiotic and your probiotic rich foods, keffia, know, Kim cheese, basically anything that has a fermentation process is really great. And then the stress side
things as well. What are you doing there? What practices do you have to help down regulate that because that helps tighten those junctions as well.
Miah Hammond-Errey (44:21)
I've got a couple of questions on sleep and recovery before we wrap up. But I first wanted to touch on some supplements. I know you kind of want to give you space to talk about supplements generally, but also specifically creatine. Obviously creatine is kind of relatively recently ventured into the mainstream. What should listeners know about its role in brain energy and cognition, especially when under stress or in sleep deprivation?
Jess Spendlove (44:47)
Yeah, it's a really exciting time with the research in this space. β I've just recorded an episode this week because I was like, know, it needs its own β space and there's a lot on the social media and everything. I think the main thing for people to know what it's showing is when we have higher levels of creatine in our system.
And for women, women by default are a little bit lower or more susceptible in being lower than men for two reasons. we naturally consume 30 to 40 percent less on average, give or take the person of creatine. And that has to do with our dietary intake. Men tend to eat more meat. And that is where creatine is naturally found in food. And so if you're plant based, if you're vegetarian, if you're flexitarian or again, we're just, you know,
you're mindful about your meat consumption, which there's benefits to that, don't get me wrong, but from this creatine conversation, it's just one of the reasons why your creatine stores in your body might be lower. And then on top of that, have 20 % lower synthesis. So we synthesise less. So there's a two pronged conversation there. β
But where I first became kind of aware of this conversation, even like a decade ago in professional sport and the military, we've been using creatine in the concussion protocols. Because when there's a concussion or a mild traumatic brain injury, β creatine levels in the brain would drop. Where this is now evolved to in the mainstream is looking at creatine in different life stages for women. And what we're seeing is that we have different requirements across all of our life stages.
And so this is actually probably about women needing more than what we think. And then coupled with those few things I just rattled off about us having less. And then there's some really cool studies which have come out around how higher levels of creatine.
I will caveat that though in a second. Higher levels of creatine can mitigate some of the symptoms with sleep deficiency. And so this is really around creatine stores in the body. 95 % of it is in our muscle. There's about 5 % in a few other organs, including the brain. And so what we're trying to do there is saturate our creatine stores, which takes a couple of weeks to do if you're taking around three to five grams a day. And that just helps mitigate some of these symptoms that we're seeing. High demand, high stress.
sleep deprived, carrying heavy mental load, basically where there's this, you know, brain energy and cognitive requirements, either from a life stage or a situational perspective. β And there's only really a few indications, like it's, you know, mindful when we talk about supplements, there needs to be a seek medical advice or, you know, determine if it's right for you. But really most instances where it really only needs to be considered is if there's like a kidney disease,
anything in that space there. It is a very well researched supplement. You're starting at these lower levels. Probably the biggest issue when you start to have the higher levels, being reported as beneficial for like the acute effects of sleep deficiency, is some of the gut symptoms that can come with it. So if you're not on a baseline level dose of three, five, or even 10 grams a day, like two, five gram doses, I wouldn't go to like a 20 gram dose to, you know, try and mitigate some of this.
the sleep deficiency and the symptoms that go along with that because that might help there but from a gut perspective it might be really uncomfortable but yeah for me it's kind of a definitely a tool in the toolkit like I all the athletes or the military all of my high performing corporates it's definitely something that is β I feel really you know pro about from a cognitive side of things more so and then there's the everything from the physical side of things as well so there's really only upside.
Miah Hammond-Errey (48:47)
Were there any other supplements you wanted to mention before I move on?
Jess Spendlove (48:50)
Probably the only other one is like your omega-3 fatty acids. So, and look, that's like a two pronged thing. There's the inflammatory and the EPA side and the heart health side, and then the DHA, which is more from this brain health and cognitive side of things. And, you know, it's really quite easy to get your omega-3 levels tested. It's called an omega-3 index to just see where you are sitting because it's kind of like, like it's definitely one of the nutrients
which even if you're eating a lot of oily fish, it's very hard to meet the optimal requirements. And again, this is where we're talking about like, you know, general recommendations versus optimal. And I think this is the positive side of things with the longevity conversation. We now have data around what is more optimal. And so that's probably the other high strength, high quality supplement that people should consider.
Miah Hammond-Errey (49:45)
Excellent. Thank you. I want to jump to sleep and recovery. For me personally, learning how to recover properly was just an absolute game changer. And whilst I was motivated throughout my life, having a child radically changed the equation for me because I just didn't have enough time to recover I had to learn like everyone else who probably went long before that you have to implement,
stress reduction protocols, genuine recovery. And for me, sleep has been a huge part of that. you emphasise the interplay between nutrition and sleep quality. I know you've personally experienced burnout.
what's the most practical dietary lever people can pull to improve their sleep? And then can you talk about, how your experience with burnout, like mine with parenting reshaped how you think about recovery?
Jess Spendlove (50:33)
Yeah, definitely. think the, again, to come back to the nutrition rhythm, like there's so many benefits to doing that and the protein pulsing, because what that not only does is give your body more energy to operate across the day, but that also helps set you up for sleep success because the closer to bed that we eat, the more that it can impact our time to get to sleep, our deep sleep, because energy and focus is going towards digestion rather than us, you
getting into that deep sleep more effectively and then impacting that overall recovery. So the benefit.
Miah Hammond-Errey (51:09)
I will say eating
at 5pm with a toddler is an excellent way of having your last meal well before you go to sleep.
Jess Spendlove (51:17)
This is a conversation I often have, parents will say, well, I either have dinner at five or 5.30 or 8.00 p.m. or 9.00 p.m. And I'm like, well, what are you doing when you're eating at nine? You're snacking or then they're snacking and they're doing whatever. And I'm like, if you can have it with your children as early as possible and then either give yourself that space to not have anything or if you need a snack, again, it's a really like a high protein, like a yogurt, even just some almonds or something like that, just to manage your appetite because that
they'll be so much more conducive to you getting a better night's sleep and then also how your energy is across the day. So yeah, this bi-directional relationship between nutrition and sleep really is how the evolution of my work started because again, like kind of like the gut and the brain, they're the best friends. They can positively influence each other, but for most of us, they're negatively down spiraling each other because we're skewing our intake to later in the day. It's impacting our sleep. If we don't get good quality sleep,
It disrupts our appetite hormones. We're then driven to want to eat more food It's definitely not high fiber high protein foods and then that cycle kind of goes on so that redistributing focusing your meals spreading it out more evenly across the day and Then the composition element the protein the fiber the plate ratios that will be a game-changer for all of this
Miah Hammond-Errey (52:43)
For my audience who may not have tracked why I put sleep and recovery together, sleep is one of the most profound recovery mechanisms for the body. so those two naturally came to me together, I mentioned earlier, you've personally experienced burnout, as you had said, and you have already touched on some of the ways that you've used recovery, particularly brain breaks and so on.
going forward and how do how have you built in a better rhythm in terms of recovery?
Jess Spendlove (53:09)
Yeah, think, look, recovery for me was non-existent and I feel like a hypocrite sitting here because it was like I was working with, you know, at one point seven professional sports teams at once. I'd build a business. I had a team of dieticians, but I was still like face to face with hundreds of elite athletes at one time preaching recovery and then thinking I was the exception to the rule. And I see this in a lot of people. They think that they're invincible and you are invincible until you aren't. And the only thing that's
is when you're operating at an unsustainable pace, it's not if but when. β And so, yes, same, learn the hard way, despite knowing better. β For me, it was like a story of, this is the price I pay for the opportunities I've been afforded. Like, I work 14 hour days and I work seven days a week and I travel around the country. you know, I was, I look back and I wish I wore a wearable then, cause I can only imagine like my HRV and my, like, it just would have been.
the writing would have been on the wall. β I was fueled on adrenaline and cortisol and probably caffeine and while I was ticking the boxes of I ate well and I slept well because I was exhausted, yeah the recovery piece was non-existent. There was no down regulating, there was no daily brain breaks, there was no weekly intentional recovery block because in elite sport you work on the weekend because of games and so my days off
if I ever had them and I hadn't filled it with another team that I was going to see was a weekday and so I'd just go to a cafe and work like what else was I doing β there was no and maybe sometimes it was at the beach so it was a blend but I was overstimulated
I have a corporate client at the moment, very senior, know, CEO type person. And he was quite offended by me saying, you know, we need to manage your stress. And he's like, I'm not stressed. I'm stimulated. And I'm like, whatever language we try to choose, but you work seven days a week. You look at your screen, what I'm talking about is being on and having moments of stillness and moments to decompress. Because if you don't do that,
β it'll happen at night and that's why you're waking at 2 or 3 a.m. and that's why you can't get back to sleep or that's why you can't get to sleep and yes so you know recovery and sleep do go together but in the book I've separated them because sleep is so important for so many reasons it's really the bedrock and for me it's like if you're listening to all of these and like where to begin sleep is where I would be recommending and look for me at the moment like some of
The time I go to bed some nights is so early, but it's just what I need to do to get that sleep sorted. Consistency is the ideal
Getting a good or as good of a night's sleep as I can is the number one underpinning piece.
Miah Hammond-Errey (56:08)
I love the way that you started this by saying, build for your worst day, not your best day, because essentially, you can't maintain a system that's trying to reach here when you're only here. And we all have those days. So much of this is about building the right systems in place in our life
I also wanted to pick up on something that you just mentioned there. It is so important in a lot of our work, and that is language. The use of the term emotional self-regulation is often less easily acknowledged by some groups, particularly men, whereas things like down regulation or other terms which have a different connotation seem to be more easily managed,
And that's part of the game. So thank you for raising that because it is such an important point.
Jess Spendlove (56:50)
It's just interesting, it's finding that connection. I've learned with the different groups and everything I talk about is very principle based, but how it gets applied, the nuance,
It's why I survey groups as much as possible before I enter a room. So I just really understand where they're at, where I'm meeting them at. And while it's, you know, I'm taking lessons from other areas which are well researched, it's not just doing this because the elite athletes or the military or whatever are doing it. It's taking the principle and applying it and really always meeting the person or the group or the organisation where they are at. And language is such a big piece of that.
Miah Hammond-Errey (57:27)
Jess, thank you so much to close out and something I ask every guest, what are your top five tips for anyone thinking about cognition and nutrition?
Jess Spendlove (57:35)
the rhythm, there's so much in the rhythm, you know, the distribution of the day, the size of the meals and the gaps. We want to standardise that and spread that out as much as possible. So you're being proactive with your day, not reactive. β The second is that composition. So, and in particular, if you want to focus on two specific components, I would say the protein, a third of the plate for women, that's 30 grams.
a high biological value, for men it's probably closer to 40. And then also the fibre, so eight to 10 grams. Visually, you're looking at a third to half the plate of colours, and then the rest is kind of grains. And then to the value at a point of the fuelling around that for your exercise levels. The third is to really take hydration seriously, and again, be proactive with it. Monitor what you're doing across the day. β Water first and
always but there is a place and a space for electrolytes whether that's because you're active and you eat relatively you know well and whole foods and there's not a lot of salt in your diet and or you're exercising a lot.
And or you just don't drink enough and you want to have more and water's just not cutting it for you. The fourth is to supplement intentionally, not randomly, but layer it in the foundations first. I've mentioned creatine specifically, a creatine monohydrate. Some of my favorite brands are Coles Perform, Pillar Performance, β Body Science or True Protein. These are Australian owned, Australian manufactured and third party batched.
tested, which means that guarantees nothing else is in the product or cross contaminated. And then my fifth one is experiment.
but do it intelligently and intentionally, know, the A-B testing. Change one thing, change it for two weeks, have your data points, tune into the subjective metrics that matter, and really make an assessment. Is this a good thing for me across my day and weeks or is this just a short-term fix I think is good, but β I'm actually eating a chocolate bar in the afternoon, which I was never doing before, my sleep is, you know, it's struggling. So you really need to look at the full picture.
Miah Hammond-Errey (59:49)
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me on the Cognitive Edge.
Jess Spendlove (59:52)
Thank you so much for having me.