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Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is a podcast about business, parenting and living life intentionally. We're here every week to bring you intentional conversations on making your own path to success, challenging the status quo, and finding all the ways we're better. Recorded in Cookeville, TN, Kosta joins guests from all walks of life to bring fresh perspective and start your week with purpose. We're better together.
Kosta Yepifantsev: There’s one
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for everyone (including my 4
kids). Open 10:00 AM to 8:00 PM
Tuesday through Saturday, in the
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Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Let's be
honest, it's harder now than
ever to find unbiased
information. It's harder now
than ever to find news that
doesn't have a slant. So we have
to have the skills to discern
some of those things.
Morgan Franklin: Welcome to
Better Together with Kosta
Yepifantsev, a podcast on
parenting business and living
life intentionally. We're here
every week to bring you
thoughtful conversation, making
your own path to success,
challenging the status quo, and
finding all the ways we're
better together. Here's your
host, Kosta Yepifantsev.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Hey, y'all,
it's Kosta. Today I'm here with
my guest, Dr. Elizabeth Lisic,
Assistant Director of BIRTCH
Professional Learning Center at
branch alliance for Educator
diversity, whether it's in your
own family or a campus of 10,000
students, you're uniquely
skilled in identifying,
nurturing and maximizing the
talent of those around you.
Would you mind telling us a bit
about your professional work and
what it means to the everyday
person?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Absolutely.
So I love that that is
absolutely my goal to identify,
nurture, and maximize the
talents of those around me. And
I hope that's what I do every
day. But, you know, when I think
back over my professional
journey, my career trajectory, I
guess we could say it wasn't
necessarily planned, I knew that
I always wanted to be in a role
where I could support other
people. And so my limited
experience led me to this idea
that I was going to be a
counselor or social worker. And
so I spent my undergraduate time
majoring in psychology and
really kind of digging in with
the expectation that that would
be the future planning, graduate
programs and master's in social
work, the whole nine yards
there. And I spent several years
actually working host
undergraduate degree as a
support coordinator. And so
support coordinators, the
basically have the opportunity
to go into homes of individuals
with developmental disabilities,
and really do exactly that
coordinate request, coordinate
the services that they receive,
so that we can ensure that all
of us have the opportunity to
have the best supports and
services available. And so doing
that, really, it continued to
stir in me this idea that
supporting others, and finding
ways for all individuals to have
access to high quality services
and education mattered to me.
And so I took a turn from what I
expected then and actually
enrolled in a Ph. D. program at
Tennessee Tech. That program was
an exceptional learning. And my
concentration was in program
planning and evaluation. And so
within that field, I mean, it
can be very broad, but it does
all center around education, and
the supports that students and
educational programs receive,
and how do we use data to make
sure those programs are evidence
based and align with what our
students, these kids, us our
society really need? Right. And
so, through that program, I had
the opportunity to do a lot of
really cool things work with
some amazing people. I got to
you know, I taught classes at
Tennessee Tech. And, you know,
that really did affirm within me
this idea that I had a place in
in the education world, right
that I wanted to connect with
students that I wanted to
understand where they were
coming from some of my favorite
experiences were teaching. I
taught a lot of, you know,
junior level classes, maybe
where sometimes we had transfer
students coming in from maybe a
community college. And I would
always love when my class was
the very first class they ever
had a Tennessee Tech because
that was an opportunity to say,
It's all new to you, but you've
got someone here, I'm gonna walk
with you on this journey. I'm
next to you. And so being able
to provide that support was
really powerful. And during my
time at Tech, I was able to work
in the Center for assessment and
improvement of learning, which
was a grant funded lab where we
researched the impact of the
things we were doing in courses
On students critical thinking,
their ability to problem solve
real world problem solving,
critical thinking, creative
thinking, these are skills that
we all have to use every day in
order to just be successful in
the world. And so as we studied
those impacts, we were able to
use that research to identify
strategies to help students
maximize their potential in
those areas. So again, being
able to support students
throughout their journey. After
I left Tennessee Tech, I moved
into a role that the branch
alliance for Educator diversity.
And that same thread has
continued because in this role,
I'm able to support not just
individual students, but the
educator preparation programs
that prepare future teachers and
work to ensure we partner with
those programs to ensure that
they are able to produce highly
qualified, highly prepared
diverse teachers to really
impact, greater impact to go
broader to go further and impact
all of the pre K 12 students in
communities all across our
country. And so when I think
about how does that matter to
the everyday person, I think the
takeaway for me is that thread
that's gone through that
education matters, and educators
matter. And that within that
supporting education, is truly
building all of our future, our
kids future, our society's
future. And we all have a part
to play.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So as you're
going through this research
project, right, so how long was
it?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: So I worked
there for about 10 years? Okay.
Wow. So
Kosta Yepifantsev: that's a lot.
As you're going through this
research project, like what did
you find are the main barriers
or the main issues like we talk
about education, and the problem
with the education system? You
know, we say there's federal
problems, there's, it goes down
to the state, it's a local
problem, whatever it might be,
you know, it's a lifestyle
problem. It's a things that are
happening at home, whatever it
is, but you are obviously a
person that's researched this
topic. So what did you find out
that, you know, contributes to
the issues in education? Yeah,
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: well, I
think the biggest takeaway would
be there is no one thing, right?
And that's the most least
interesting answer. But I really
do think that when we think
about education, and when we
think specifically about this
work, we were doing around
creative thinking, critical
thinking skills, real world
problem solving. I think one of
the greatest obstacles is this,
I'm going to call it information
literacy. It might be media
literacy. But this idea that we
have to continue to train
ourselves to promote the skills
to approach all of the
information we're receiving with
this, this critical eye, not
that we are critics of
everything, but that we
understand cognitive bias, that
we understand how we may lean
into certain things, because
it's an invited inference. And
as we do those things, we build
the skills to be able to step
back and be responsible
consumers of information. And I
think if we understand that,
when it comes to critical and
creative thinking skills, I
think we can train and prepare
students for that ever changing
world. And I think beyond that,
man, I think it part of it is
realizing that we do all have a
part to play whether you are a
concerned citizen, you're a
voter, if you're a lawmaker, if
you're a parent of kids in the
school system, if you're a
community leader, if you're an
educator, we truly do have to
work together to advance these
things. And it can't be about
political gain. It can't be
about what I need or what I
want, because there's kids on
the line, and those kids are
future. And so at branch Ed,
which branch lines for Educator
diversity, we go by branch Ed,
oftentimes, and we talk about
educational ecosystem, and that
none of us are operating in
education in isolation. And if
we are, then we probably need to
ask some questions about that.
But really, representation
matters, stakeholder voices
matter. And so it can't just be
one person, whether that is the
best intentioned person in the
world, making those decisions
about the education for all of
our students, we really do need
the voices of multiple diverse
perspectives in the room to
really understand what our
students need to succeed. And
Kosta Yepifantsev: this may
sound like a dumb question, but
throughout my entire school
career, all they talked about
was obviously once you learn how
to read and you learn, like
basic arithmetic, all they
talked about was, were teaching
you how to critically think
like, why do I need to learn
geometry? It's because you need
to learn how to critically
think, you know, why do you need
to know all of the different
dynamics of science because you
need to learn how to critically
think so if it's built into our
K through 12 system, and based
on your research, it seems that
we still have quite a ways to go
and more importantly, the
practical applications of being
successful in life. Why are we
not getting there? If we say we
are Why are we not quite
bridging the gap?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: So I think
there are several factors. I
think one is intentionality, I
think that we can intend to
teach these skills. And this was
part of what we tried to look at
is just saying we're doing it or
just asking certain questions
probably isn't enough. But it's
multiple opportunities to
practice these skills in varied
contexts. And I think that's one
of the things is, when we look
at critical thinking only within
one particular discipline, it
can be difficult for our brains
cognitively, to transfer that
out to other disciplines or
other things as well. So just
because I understand how to
think critically about this word
problem in geometry, it doesn't
necessarily mean that when I see
a conspiracy theory on tick tock
that I have the ability to
really look at it from multiple
perspectives, I think is the
groundwork. Sure. And I just
don't know that we go far
enough. And that's where that
intentionality piece comes in.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So you have
over a decade of experience in
professional development, and
student learning, specifically
related to outcomes such as
critical and creative thinking,
as a parent yourself, how have
you used this background to help
your children succeed?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: So I think
that, first off that that
experience that I had allowed me
the opportunity to zoom out and
really think about the impact of
these skills on our society and
see, with a little more clarity,
maybe why it mattered to me as
an individual. And I think it
started there, I had to
understand that. And so then,
when I went to my students in my
classroom, it was about teaching
the value of diverse
perspectives, and that the first
answer might not be the only
answer. The power of creative
problem solving, curiosity. It's
some of these things. So I think
as a parent, I want all of these
same things for my kids. In full
disclosure, that's not always as
easy as it is in a classroom
where I've built a syllabus, and
I know what we're doing,
partially because of my own,
we'll call them toxic traits,
right? I'm a fixer. And so it's
much easier for me, I want to
jump in and fix it for my kids,
even though I believe
wholeheartedly in the power of
failure, failing forward,
learning from that, and really
reflecting on it. And so that
growth mindset, I have to hold
myself back from stepping in.
And so I don't know if anybody
can relate to that. But I want
to let them fail and learn from
that in this protected space
while I still get to be their
parent, for me as a parent
taking what I've learned part of
that is, how do I create safe
spaces for that learning to
happen, where you can fail, and
it has no bearing on who you are
as a person. Instead, we're
going to look at it from that
growth mindset of what did I
learn from this? I think helping
them strengthen their creative
skills and understand I
mentioned invited inference
earlier. And I think we all
practice this. One of the
examples I would use with
students I've used with my kids,
I think we all would benefit
from kind of thinking about it
is okay, so imagine there's a
headline, and it says,
increasing ice cream sales have
led to greater shark attacks.
And the invited inference is oh
my gosh, like we need to shut
down the ice cream trucks,
people are dying, because of the
ice cream trucks. Get them out
of here, like so what I would
challenge my kids then if we see
a headline like that is Could it
be that ice cream sales
increased during the summer, but
also increases during the summer
beach attendance, right? So it
has nothing to do with the ice
cream attracting the sharks, but
instead, there's more people
there to attack, right? And so
thinking about things
differently, like that critical
questioning that I think is
important. So when we see
headlines and news as a family,
we invite them to question and
think critically about that.
Think from another perspective
that maybe you've never thought
of before, most frequently. My
son, Evan, he's 13. And he was
doing a research report. He was
doing a presentation on missing
persons cases. He came and he
was like, did you know these
particular countries and these
particular states have the
highest rates of missing people?
It's looking for everyday
opportunities to step back and
say maybe, maybe that is it. But
could it also be that these
other countries that you're
talking about don't have any
infrastructure setup to report
missing people? Or maybe you
know, the news doesn't reach us
the same way or so just thinking
about different perspectives so
as a parent, so far from perfect
when it comes to this, but those
are the types of things I try to
take my professional experience
and marry them with. That was
parenting pieces,
Kosta Yepifantsev: but you have
a full time job. They do and
you're also your kids are
homeschooling. And so are you
the active educator in the home?
Are they a part of like a
program where they're able to do
certain modules or work? Yeah,
allow you to do your full time
job? Yeah,
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: it would
be? Yes. And is what I would
say. So yes, primary educator,
however, they utilize online
programs that have real
teachers, right, that are also
able to provide that direct
instruction. So I'm able to come
alongside them in more of a
support role to help further
that understanding. And then we
do extra things that I get to
support them. And so right now
we're doing something called
Genius Hour, every week, they
have a different topic. And
every day, they spend an hour
researching that topic, and then
coming up with a creative way to
present it to my husband and I
at the end of the week. So it's
things like that, that allowed
them to stretch, they're pretty
independent in their schooling
as well. And so that helps, but
yeah, it's quite a bit some days
more than others to manage. So
Kosta Yepifantsev: just finish
this sentence for me, when my
kids graduate high school, I
want them to be what
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I want them
to be empowered to reach
whatever goal they set for
themselves. And so whatever that
looks like, today, they believe
the sky's the limit, and if they
can graduate high school, still
believing the sky's the limit, I
will feel like it was a success,
Kosta Yepifantsev: where you
homeschool. I was not. Okay, so
how did you develop these skills
in public school?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I think
that many of these skills, I did
not develop graduate school.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Okay,
interesting. I think that the
practical applications of life
need to be more emphasized
throughout school, to enlighten
like you've said to navigate
these different landscapes.
Like, yes, it's important to
learn how to critically think
but critically, think for what
purpose? Sure,
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: exactly.
And it's the application. To me,
it's the application because
skills are only meaningful
within the context of
application. So one of the
things that I used to say when I
would talk to faculty is, you
know, we have an opportunity,
you're already teaching your
students biology, your biology
faculty member, you're teaching
your students biology, they're
gonna walk out of your class,
and they know biology. But can
they think like a biologist,
because that's a little bit
different. It's so it's the
application of information is
really where critical thinking
comes in. And so I think that
oftentimes, if we separate those
things too much, then we can
dissociate the very application
of the skills that we need to be
successful.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So if you're
educators in grad school, or
maybe your educators in college
may not have those skills, they
obviously don't have those
skills in public schools. So I
mean, like what separates the
educators that you're building
through the birch Professional
Learning Center, versus just I
guess, educators that that don't
go through the program?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Well, you
know, I want to be really fair
to educators. And the fact of
the matter is, they are
succeeding, they are doing an
incredible job, and it is in no
way a hit on them. A lot of
times it is so beyond what they
have been allotted the time and
the freedom to do. And so you
know, when I think about the
requirements that are placed on
our educators, it is really not
shocking, that they don't have a
lot of of time, or freedom to go
in and create, you know, these
spaces where students can
innovate, that they're still
finding ways to do it. And
that's what I love. I say,
continuously. My kids are
homeschooled right now because
of our life and what it looks
like. But our public schools
here in Putnam County are next
level, they're amazing. And I
have full confidence in our
teachers. And so I think that
all of the tools are there, all
the ingredients of the recipe
are there because we have these
incredible teachers that all
they want is to see our students
succeed. There are barriers. And
it may be curriculum. It may be
you know, the way certain things
are set up. It may be time, but
they have found incredible ways
to navigate within them. Can we
push it further? Well, of
course, that's everything. Yeah.
But in no way, is it? There's
something missing in our
educators. I think I have full
confidence in our educators and
they just
Kosta Yepifantsev: need more
support. Absolutely. Yeah, I
agree. Speaking of your
children, many listeners might
know you as Ellie lithics mom,
she was a 2023 cook the
lifestyle mover and shaker and
she's an actress that's worked
with several Netflix and peacock
productions. What's it like to
have a child star?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Oh gosh,
you know, parenting is always an
adventure. I don't care what
your kid does. Parenting is an
adventure. And this particular
adventure that we've gone on
with the kids has been
unexpected, but fine. l Hi. has
really been been blessed to work
on some incredible productions.
She worked on pain Hustler's for
Netflix, with Emily Blunt and
Chris Evans. She worked on
Gotham nights, which was a show
on for universal on the CW
Network. And then she spent
several months in Atlanta
filming a friend of the family,
which was on peacock with Colin
Hanks and in a pack when Jake
lacy McKenna grace, just like
amazing people. And so I think,
what's it like blitz new
adventure every day. But that's
just parenting. Right? I think
that we've learned so much about
this industry by walking through
this with her, we knew nothing
starting out, right. And so it's
been full on learning for all of
us. And we really do have, you
know, an incredible team and
incredible village that walks
through it with
Kosta Yepifantsev: us, you have
agents, and like PR and all that
stuff
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: they have
they have an agent, and they
have a manager. And so that
really is incredible support
system that, you know, probably
dealt with a lot of really
stupid questions for me along
the way. Right? Well, I mean,
you got to protect your child.
Yeah. And that's first and
foremost. And I will say, this
is a side note, but there has
been a lot of media attention
lately on the dangerous like the
Docu series that came out about
Nickelodeon, things like that
about, you know, the dangers of
the industry for children. And I
will say what I have seen is the
probably result of many of those
tragic, horrible traumatic
things that happen, but now,
they really have revolutionized
protections for children's
industry. And it's very
different world than it used to
be. But even in that your mama
bear like you're there, you're
watching everything. So having
that supportive team really does
make a difference. How often do
you have to travel? Well, for I
travel for my job job, right.
And so usually, I don't know it
with between conferences and
doing professional learning at
different universities, maybe
three or four times a quarter.
And then depending on the kids
booking schedule, we we travel
with them when they need it. And
it varies tremendously. Right
now we're coming off of a double
strike, you know, the writers
were striking and sag was
striking. And so coming off of
that it's a rebuilding time for
the industry in many ways. And
so it's been a lot quieter
lately. And so we've found other
things to do to stay busy,
right. But whenever they are
working, we do and we my husband
and I kind of trade out
depending on our schedules,
who's available to be with him
on set, but we've enlisted
family members, grandparents
aunt, to go and be with them on
set. Because I mean, that is no
matter who else is there,
they're always going to have
someone there for them right
advocating for them.
Kosta Yepifantsev: We can't
neglect to mention your son,
Evan Lessig, who is an equally
talented and accomplished actor.
How do you balance both the
schedules, rehearsals,
schoolwork and expectations? And
what's your advice to parents
who have children interested in
acting or media of any kind,
when
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: we talk
about balance, I mean, life is
full, but it's full of the
things that we love. And it's
full of the things that we
choose. And as long as it's full
of the things that I'm choosing,
I'm good with it, I can I can
make it work, right? That is
like my Alex's life motto is
like, we'll make it work, you
know, and we figured it out, you
know, so practical things, like,
get that color coded Google
Calendar and make it work for
you. Right? Share it with the
people that need to see it, find
your village of people that can
be there with your kid when you
can't, right. Because whether it
is a, you know, work, travel, or
being on set with one kid and
somebody else needs to be at
rehearsal, or whatever it might
be like, we all have those
things, find those people that
support you. And then I think
for me when it think about like
schoolwork and things, making
those expectations really clear
to your kids, whether it's their
in travel ball, or they're an
acting or they are a competitive
dancer, whatever it is, is we
can do these things. Because we
also do these things, right? We
don't sacrifice one in order to
do the other. And I think that
making those expectations really
clear as has been pivotal for
us. I mentioned that we
homeschool now. And that was a
choice for us in this season.
Because, you know, l had to miss
several months of school because
she was on set. And it was
challenging to go back and forth
between being in the classroom
and being out and getting work
set. And all our schools, like I
said, best schools in the world
here. They are. They're
fantastic, amazingly, but we
felt like a stressor to everyone
else involved to you. Right. So
we wanted to make it the best
experience for our kids but also
for our educators. And so for us
right now, it looks like that.
But with that it does give us
some flexibility with school and
so if they are in tech week for
a show, then maybe work is a
little lighter that we could
pick back up and it's even
heavier the next week to make up
for it. So that flexibility is a
pretty Shadid for us, but even
without that, I think those
clear expectations matter. As
far as for parents, a big thing
for us was training. We all hear
those stories about, you know, a
kid who was singing in the
grocery store and was discovered
and launched there. That's not
real life like that is like
maybe point 00 1% of this world,
right? What it actually looks
like is going to class after
class and having classes on Zoom
and followed by a dance class in
person and doing training, but
only because they want to be
there. And that is a regular
question we asked in our house.
This so she want what you want
to do. We're doing it because
you asked for it. You know, so
funny thing about Evan and L.
Like they've been doing stage
acting. So Evan really started.
And they did the Cookeville
children's theater, summer camp,
amazing, amazing camp. He did it
before his kindergarten or
around his kindergarten year,
and ended up just discovering
how much he loved being on
stage. And so we did his first
stage production and was like,
when's the next one? Right, so
we started looking for more
opportunities, and l jumped
right in. And they both started
performing regularly at the
Cumberland County Playhouse. And
we spent a lot of time on the
road between here in Crossville.
With that, but then they came to
us in it was at the end of 2021.
They came to us and they said,
We want to try on camera acting.
So really what led by them. And
I think that would be my first
advice for parents is it's got
to be led by them, because it's
not easy. And it requires a lot
of them. And if they aren't in
it, it's not going to last and
it's going to be painful for
everyone involved, right? Yeah.
But then be ready to immerse
yourself in this world learn
everything, because they're
going to need you to know, if
you're going to submit a self
tape audition, what's your
lighting going to be like?
What's your setup at home to
film like, it's things I never
knew I needed to know. But now I
know, right?
Kosta Yepifantsev: never acted,
right? No. I mean, like in high
school, or anything, maybe
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: like play
here and there. My kids are
doing way more than I ever did.
Right? So nothing to that level.
Right? And so yeah, I had to
learn right alongside them. And
Alex as well. And he has a lot
of technical video production
experience, which came in very
handy when it came to, you know,
taping some of these things and
getting the right setup in our
home. But we've both I mean,
I've listened to enough acting
lessons now like, scene study
that I know the questions to ask
I had, but if I don't learn, I
can't walk with them through it.
Well, I
Kosta Yepifantsev: want to ask
you one more thing before we
move on to parenting.
Specifically, I want to talk a
little bit more about schools.
So we've obviously established
Putnam County has great schools,
and the educators are
phenomenal. You know, my kids
went to all good and it was a
great experience my kids went to
Capshaw was a great experience.
I've seen what Tina Francis has
accomplished a Jerry Whitson,
you know, all of these, all of
these educators are doing a
phenomenal job. And you've done
a lot of background research on
our education system. This
essentially is why I want to ask
you this, when I listen to some
of our lawmakers describe our
education system as a whole.
Right. So, you know, I think
there was a state of the schools
conversation that was had, and
then some of our lawmakers came
in, attended at the Chamber of
Commerce. And they said that we
are not able to compete with
other countries around the
world, in terms of how we
educate our children and prepare
them for adult life. And so
their solution is to, you know,
essentially give school choice
to everybody universal school
choice, for that matter, and to
give those $7,000 vouchers. Now
you and I both know, and I'm
pretty sure everybody listening
on this podcast knows that
$7,000 for private school is not
going to cut it. Absolutely not
even a little bit. And, you
know, obviously, there is a
lifeline that's being taken away
from our public schools, and in
all honesty, reducing the
support and then going in the
opposite direction of what we
need to do for our teachers. So
you've done a lot of research on
this topic. I know that was a
really long winded question. But
with the research that you've
done, why do you feel like this
is the direction that the state
of Tennessee wants to go?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Well, you
know, I think that there are
some things that I do think on
the surface sound like why not?
Right, like, parents can choose,
we're all about choice, right?
And it sounds good. The issues I
think often come when we start
drilling down under the surface,
and what does this mean not just
for my kids, but for all kids?
And so, to answer the why I
think that there is not an easy
answer to address, you know,
some of the challenges that we
face in education. And I think
sometimes, a response like this
can seem like number For one, it
can make parents happy. Right?
And it can give them the power
for this money, delineated for
education give me the power of
where I want to spend this for
my kid. So on the surface, I
think it can sound like a
possible a good possibility. But
my hesitation, my concern, my
reservations really do lie in
the fact that when we give
school choice in this way, we
are primarily giving choice to
students that already had
choices. To me what that means
is, if I am a student in a home,
where my parent or parents are
available to drive me to school,
wherever they choose for me to
go, then that probably means
they're home when I'm getting
ready. They're preparing
breakfast for me, they're doing
these things. And so these are
oftentimes children that are in
more, I'm gonna say privilege
homes. And I don't mean that in
a political way. I just mean,
they have the opportunity to
have that support every single
day. And so if I want my kid to
go to the school and the next
county, and that's my school
choice, I can drive them there
Right.
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I wanted was for my parents to
drive me to school, but they
were like Sorry, bro, you
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: got kids,
right real life, bus all the
time. A lot of students, that's
not feasible, right. And so
they're going to continue to get
bused to the schools that
they're zoned for. And so they
don't have that choice in the
same way. So to say it's choice,
I think is a misnomer, because I
think it's choice for some. And
so we just need to go into this
with our eyes open. And I think
that that is a reality of it.
And I think with that, too, then
oftentimes, what may be a
unintended repercussion is that
those students that don't have
the same choice, are now in
lesser funded public schools.
Right. And we have to be real
about that then. And so we can
say, we're trying to fix a
problem. But in all honesty, we
are pulling funding away from
schools that are already
severely underfunded, right, and
we just need to be real about
what we're doing. Yeah,
Kosta Yepifantsev: I think one
of the major tenants of being an
educator that whenever I talk to
teachers, one of the things that
they always tell me is I just
need more support, I need more
money, you know, and we just
have to, you know, call spade a
spade, they need more money,
correct? Because you can't take
care of anybody else, you can
take care of yourself.
Absolutely. And you know, even
in, I think, 55,000, if I'm not
mistaken as a starting salary
for a teacher, maybe a little
bit less, maybe a little more,
but in that range. And nowadays,
like it's hard to make ends
meet, especially if you're a one
income household on $55,000, in
Cookeville, you know, that's not
going to go very far. And
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: then you
think so then what happens is
what we see, and one of the
things that we talk a lot about
in our field is then we begin to
lose those high quality
teachers. And what does that
then do continuation of our
edge? So it really has got to
look at the future. It's not
just about today, it's how are
we preparing teachers, but also
creating schools that they can
be successful in. And whenever
that underfunded, underpaid
teacher walks into their
classroom for the first time,
they are responsible for so many
costs within their classroom. So
then, that can lead to further
disparity in, you know, what
some students receive in their
classes versus others. And even
more so than that. Oftentimes,
our teachers that have the
potential maybe they're great
teachers and they're going to go
on then they may move into
another field, simply because
they can get paid more. It has
nothing to do with their heart
for kids. It has nothing to do
with their desire to improve But
they can go either work in
another district or in another
field and support their family
better or just themselves like
themselves? Absolutely. And what
do we then continue to see
schools that don't have enough
teachers, schools that don't
have enough funding, you know,
at schools that don't have the
resources that they need? So it
feels a little backwards,
Kosta Yepifantsev: right? Osuna?
Backwards, since you've done the
research, why would we not want
to pay I mean, like, as a
business person, I'm thinking to
myself, like, if I want to
attract the best talent, I'm
going to have to pay, you know,
not just comparable to market
rate, but above market rate, you
know, because I want to bring
people from other organizations
to my organization, because
they're obviously not going to
make a lateral move most of the
time, they want to make a move
or to make more money. So why
would we not just say, you know,
what, if we want to improve
outcomes, we need to pay for
that. So instead of spending
four months debating how we're
going to effectuate the problem
from all these different angles,
you know, not directly, but
indirectly, why don't we just
directly fix the problem by
paying these teachers more money
and attracting more individuals
that are well prepared not to
say that our current educators
aren't but just more, more than
a more, maybe more and peeling
back from those fields that they
went to? Yeah,
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I think,
you know, I think you see some
states that are really are
pushing forward legislation
around some of this and trying
to make the environment more
hospitable. It's for retention,
teacher retention, because we've
seen those high attrition rates.
I don't know how to answer your
question, because I don't know
why. No, I
Kosta Yepifantsev: don't I just
didn't work. I maybe saw
something in the research.
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I think
that the answer is yeah, why
right. But I think it is
nuanced. Is that the only thing
we need to fund teacher salary
will? No, so there is other
pieces to it as well, there's
curriculum, there is, you know,
really thinking about that
there's so much money that goes
into that right there. And so
really thinking about that,
thinking about the partnerships
between the programs that are
preparing our teachers and the
schools that they're going into
thinking about how we, even in
that, a lot of teachers
potential teachers don't even
make it that far, because they
can't afford to take a semester
or a year off for clinical
teaching. So we see programs in
Tennessee has done a great job
of trying to rule out teacher
apprenticeship programs where
teachers can be paid as they're
going through that process. And
we see that with apprenticeships
and residencies in many other
states as well. But that in and
of itself also, isn't the only
answer. It really is nuanced. I
do think that the reason we
struggle sometimes is because we
do want one answer to fix our
problem. And this is not a one
answer problem. But you know, my
vote is let's start with what's
working. That's always where I'm
going to come back to is an
appreciative inquiry stance
where we say, what is working in
our school systems. And let's
double down on that. Let's push
into that. Let's lean in there,
because oftentimes, we can
replicate the parts of it that
are working, and where are those
pockets of good? Where are those
pockets of success, and I don't
just mean success and test
scores. I mean, success in
developing humans that are good
citizens that are responsible.
So as we see those things, then
let's lean into those things.
Instead, when we only come at it
from a problem Focused Inquiry
response, I think that we can
really get depressed fast and
feel defeated fast and just go
to the easy answer. And I think
our students deserve more. Yeah,
Kosta Yepifantsev: we don't need
to blow it all up. Yeah, yeah.
We can just fix starting with
the good spots.
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Let's start
there. Yeah.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So I want to
talk about critical thinking and
creative development for kids,
especially in the digital age.
We hear constantly that this
generation has no critical
thinking skills. They aren't
creative, and it's all because
of phones. Is this true in our
kids today? Different? No? Sure.
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: They are.
Sure they are kids in every
season are different. Kids in
every walk of life are
different. But that doesn't mean
they're worse. Don't get me
started on call it like labeling
kids is bad kids are worse
generation or Oh my know that.
Yes, they are kids. The world is
different. So sure. You know,
our kids are living in an age
where there is an absolute
explosion of information.
There's more information at our
fingertips than we've ever had
possible. And so, we are as
parents, as community
supporters, as educators, we are
tasked with teaching them to be
responsible consumers of that
information. And that is
critical thinking. And so does
it look like what I thought it
would have looked like when I
was a kid? Well, who cares? We
got to move on. I think you
know, there is A great deal of
critical thinking required to
sort through information and
make decisions. I think about
kid kids are doing this. And
this is where I'm saying,
oftentimes, we lead, when it
comes to kids, especially we do
this with a deficit perspective.
And we start looking at all the
things that they're doing wrong.
I propose, like, let's focus on
like an asset based perspective,
where we look at, you know, the
great things that are happening,
we look at the kids that are
learning how to digitally create
art in a beautiful way, and how
to, you know, push forward using
these skills that are going to
help them be successful. I think
about you know, our kids, maybe
it looks different than what we
thought it would. And maybe
that's where we've got to come
to terms with but think about a
kid who wants a new bike, or
wants a new gaming system, they
have an opportunity, the
critical thinking they're going
to do is looking at reviews,
read about it, look at what the
different options are, and
consider based on my context and
my constraints, what is the best
bike for me? Do I want to ride
it on the trail? Or am I going
to ride it on the road? Do I
know how to use it yet? without
training wheels? Do I need it to
be adjustable height? Do I want
speed? This is taking in all
that information? And it's
figuring out how to make it work
for the situation that they find
themselves in? And so does that
look like what maybe
classically, people have
considered critical thinking?
I'm gonna say we need to expand
our definition a little bit. And
it's not just classical, you
know, this is the way we
logically think. It's not just
logic statements, and being able
to, you know, be successful
there. I think we got this
expanded contemporary definition
where it's really taking
information, learning and
applying those things. And so
are kids different sure that
we're adults? Yeah, it was the
world.
Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, I
think a lot of times, we don't
give enough credence to the fact
and I interact with most of the
times, like kids that are either
in high school or fresh out of
high school, you know, or into
their 20s. And one of the things
that I've realized, you know,
because, yeah, I mean, it's hard
to understand them, because we
didn't grow up in the same
generation that they did. But
that doesn't mean there's
anything wrong with them. What I
have found is just like, when we
were growing up, and you didn't
write with, you know, pen and
paper all the time, you had
access to a computer, and people
that were born in 1960, were
probably like, you know, why are
you using that kids can't write
anymore, you know, they don't
use, they don't have proper
penmanship, or they're not, you
know, their writing isn't
pretty, or whatever it might be,
and other similar things that
they said, We have to change how
we interact. So like, we're
going through this AI
revolution, and kids my age, in
your, in your age, are going to
be very comfortable in using AI
and it's going to optimize the
role now, it may create a
mismatch. And I think a lot of
reasons why as people that are
employing younger individuals,
why we can't quite break through
to what makes them tick, is
because we're talking in a
different language. And most
businesses operate in like the
20th century, these kids are
like, they're in 2050.
Absolutely. We're still in 1985,
you know, in the DeLorean. And
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I think a
lot of the systems that we've
set up, whether it's a business
world, or whatever, the
education system is not caught
up, right? I think that, you
know, there's some some
interesting research around, and
it posits this idea of digital
immigrants and digital natives,
and the communication between so
a digital immigrant who maybe
didn't always have access to all
these digital pieces. And so
they have to learn, and or not,
there's a choice to learn or
not, versus a digital native,
who has always known right, they
didn't have the experiences
without and so is one better
than the other will know. But do
we need to try to imagine the
perspective of the other and
build systems where either can
be successful? Right?
Absolutely. And I think that's
where we miss it sometimes is we
say, we don't care how you've
learned or what you've
experienced, or the world you've
grown up in, it needs to fit in
the world I grew up in. And that
doesn't work, I think we're
gonna continue to feel like
we're beating our head against
the wall, if we don't make some
adjustments to those systems.
And so I think that the tools
that kids need to be successful
are different today. And the
skills that they need to be
successful are different today.
Kosta Yepifantsev: If you could
give one piece of advice to
parents on how to encourage
curiosity and critical thinking
for their children, what would
it be,
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I would
say, look for opportunities to
engage them and deeper thinking.
I mean, they go back to what I
said earlier, information
literacy, media literacy. The
fact is, there is so much
information out there and that
means there's really good
information. And there's
misinformation, you know, and
disinformation which is
differentiated in that it's
intentionally misleading, right?
And so when we think about that,
I think one of the biggest roles
as parents but also just as
adults in this society as
educators, as fellow citizens is
to really say, how do we become
responsible consumers of all of
this information? I think I said
it earlier, but like, I don't
just need to accept the
conspiracy theory on tick tock,
I need to dig in. I don't just
need to accept grandma's post on
Facebook, I need to dig in.
Because there is a lot of
information out there. And I
always would tell my students
that because they would say,
Well, you know, I heard this and
this, and I'm like, Where'd you
hear it? Well, I researched it.
A search does not equal
research, right? And so just
because you searched enough on
Tik Tok, or even Google
whatever, it doesn't mean you
research it ever is your
evidence. Where's your credible
sources? How
Kosta Yepifantsev: do you
uncouple people though? Like,
how do you uncouple you know, we
had that Q anon thing, and it
was just a pandemic of
disinformation. How do you
uncouple people that so, I mean,
it's almost like it's, um, when
they say things that are so just
unreasonable? How do you bring
them back to reality? And I was
going to ask you about history.
And it's a good time to ask
like, do you think that maybe
the reason why we have this
outrage culture is because we
can't look back? Because we
don't know what happened,
because we never learned our
history.
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: And well, I
think we've learned sometimes
I've learned a version of our
history. And I think that that
sometimes can contribute to
that. Absolutely. Man, there's a
lot in what you just asked, I'm
going to try to unpack it a
little bit, because I do have
thoughts, what's new? But I
think that around this idea of
how do we navigate these very
strong, closely held beliefs
that are troubling, because
perhaps they're not based in
evidence? There's a lot of
research around that. And I
think if we had it all figured
out, I would be doing a
different job right now. Right.
But I think that there are so
many pieces to it. But you know,
one of the things on a more
practical level that I have
found in our work was that
whenever people had those very
closely held beliefs, it's very
challenging. If you question
that, it's very easy to become
defensive. And so one of the
things we practiced in our work,
it's some research called
latitudes of acceptance. And the
idea around latitudes of
acceptance is that, we're going
to start by talking about
something that the very non
threatening, and so we're going
to examine it, and we're going
to practice those skills, those
critical thinking skills to
really think about multiple
perspectives, to think about the
evidence to unpack what's really
happening, we're gonna practice
this on something that maybe I
don't really care that much
about, right. And so we're going
to talk about shark attacks and
ice cream, right, we're gonna
talk about some of these things
that I'm not gonna get outraged
and up in arms about, and it's
only when I can use those skills
there, that I can even begin to
think about applying them to
another setting, I taught a
class at Tennessee Tech, and it
was my favorite class to teach
is called information literacy.
And we kind of did that we
practice starting with, like
some really fictional ideas,
headlines that weren't, you
know, necessarily real, or they
were real as in they were in, I
mean, I would pull them from NPR
and pull them from wherever, but
they didn't have real impact on
the students, right? So we would
talk, there's there, I remember,
there was the headline that
would come out, and it would
say, girls that play soccer do
better in STEM. And it was like,
Okay, maybe, but maybe it's also
because soccer is kind of
expensive. And they probably
have parents that are available
to drive them to soccer
practice. Or maybe they have the
ability to have tutors and have
these additional supports and
resources like eight can't
sometimes doesn't look again,
like the invited inference. So
you start by talking about
things like that, that I don't
have a closely held belief about
right. But then I'm going to ask
you to think critically about
those things that you do. And I
want to be clear, you know, I am
a person of faith. And so there
are some things when it comes to
that, that I have had to say,
this sits within my
understanding sometimes, but
that is a conscious choice that
I make. Right, right. It's not
just I'm going to blindly
believe it is a conscious choice
that I make. So I think there's
room for that. But what I think
is problematic is when I'm going
to say simply because of who
said it or who didn't say it, or
whatever it may be, what side of
the aisle it came from that I'm
going to believe this simply
because of that, and I'm not
going to check it for myself.
Kosta Yepifantsev: The actions
that you're describing in a
classroom is essentially what
people use as an argument to say
that they are essentially
incubators for liberal
institutions. Because yeah, you
know, it's fascinating to
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: me, and
that's interesting. And I think
that's where we have to separate
our fear from because if what
we're saying is, what are we
afraid of, if we're challenging
students to really learn look
for evidence to back up the
things that they believe, and
that they're going to stand
behind and they're going to put
their name behind, then what are
we afraid of? To get them to
lean in to researching it for
themselves not
Kosta Yepifantsev: afraid of
anything. But the people that
want to keep the system the way
that it is, they are afraid that
enough people are going to wake
up?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: Well, I
think that there is this this
level of control that we lose,
here's the thing is, at the end
of the day, I can talk about
these skills, and you may go out
and most likely many, many will
still not believe like I do, but
I'm not afraid of like, that's
okay. Don't have to believe like
I do, right? I just want you to
know why you believe what you
believe, and that it be based in
real infirm like real
information that is evidence
based. And that I think, is the
challenge. And let's be honest,
it's harder now than ever to
find unbiased information. It's
harder now than ever to find
news that doesn't have a slant.
So we have to have the skills to
discern some of those things.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And
programming. I think it's a I
think it happens at a very young
age. And it happens in little
snippets and tidbits. And that's
what I want to talk to you about
next. Before we wrap up. I want
to talk about social media and
your thoughts on children with
social media, both of your
children have a parent manage
social media account. First,
what does that mean? And what's
your advice to parents when
their children asked to be on
social media?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: That's a
can of worms. So for us parent
managed social media means
exactly what it sounds like it
means it is logged in on my
phone, mine and my husband, we
are the ones that field comments
and messages and things like
that. Because in all honesty,
people suck. And like there are
really terrible people out
there, right. And so you have to
go in with your eyes open. Now,
I'll say, for me, technology is
not the enemy. I want to empower
my kids to have the skills to
navigate it, you talked about AI
is not going away. I want to
teach my kids the skills to use
it responsibly and use it
effectively. We talked about
this in teacher prep too,
because, you know, people are
like all teachers can go get an
AI generated lesson plan, okay,
that's probably not going to go
away. So let's teach them the
skills to then look at it and
see what it still needs to
itemize it to make it fit for
their context. So I say all that
to say when it comes to social
media, Alex and I as parents, we
are the gatekeepers, in a lot of
ways. Right now we're the
adults. And so when our kids got
phones, we create a technology
contract that they had to agree
to, and stand behind. And my
kids not going to have an app or
social media account or anything
like that, that that I don't
understand or know, they're
still young right now. So my
kids are 11 and 13. Okay, so
they are not, they don't have
independent social media yet. I
know a lot of kids that do. And
this is a part it really is a
personal decision. But for me, I
have seen the comments that come
in. I've seen the the posts. Oh,
yeah, it's a crazy, you know,
it's interesting, because they
like will do like Final reels
and stuff like that, that
they'll film and they had one
that for whatever reason, it
wasn't like, you know, you get
to pick the reels that like
people start watching, right.
And it was not the one we would
pick, right. But it all of a
sudden shot about it like over a
million views that came with all
the comments, right? Like, you
must have the worst parents
ever. What's wrong with you? Why
do you look like this? All these
things? Just stupid stuff,
right? Because people suck.
Yeah. And so why would I put my
11 year old in a position to
have to feel that? Because I
know, there are developmentally
appropriate times for some of
those conversations. Now, does
she know that? Yeah. Does she
know that people say things
online? Absolutely. We talk
about it. I do let her and Evan
as well, because he's a little
older, but he still doesn't have
it on his phone. But you know,
if we have a post, and there's
comments, they can get in, they
can read, you know, though,
after I've read them and talk
about what they want to respond
and things like that. So they're
involved in that way. But it is
still something that I feel
pretty passionately about
guarding while they are
developing those interpersonal
skills to differentiate. This
online person doesn't know me,
they don't know anything about
me, you know, and they don't get
to speak into my life.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Right? Yeah.
And it never used to happen on
MySpace, you know, right. I
mean, that's probably
everybody's best ways. Right? He
only said nice thing only.
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I'll say
and I'll say when we do choose
to use technology, even beyond
the on social media, we do use
like bark like diagrams like
that and help manage that. So we
I highly recommend those things
to parents. And I feel like I've
said I have 17 Life mottos
today. But one of them is
clarity is kindness. And so to
me, what that means is the
expectations need to be clear.
Because if we're going to, like
have good conversation around
it, and we're going to continue
this close knit relationship
that we have with our kids, they
need to understand the
expectations needed to be clear.
And that's certainly true when
it comes around technology,
Kosta Yepifantsev: what age are
you going to set him loose?
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: There's not
a magic number for me. And I
think that much to their
frustration, I'm sure. But I
think that it really depends on
the platform. It depends on I
think how things evolve, I will
say, I am not afraid of
technology. And I don't want to
be afraid of social media, I
think there's a lot of power
that can be leveraged there. And
I think that there's a lot of
community that can be built
there. Again, it looks different
than the way we may have built
community 2030 years ago, but
that's okay. But there are lots
of challenges in navigating the
developmentally appropriate
level. And I think it's
different for every case,
Kosta Yepifantsev: terrified,
but once you set them loose, you
don't know what's going to
happen. And I think the anxiety
comes from if you do too early,
what are the negative
ramifications? If you do too, we
now see, you're just like, you
know, you kind of like in
between a rock and a hard place.
You know what I'm saying to time
it. So I
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: think you
have to know your kid. And I
think with that my strategy
would be gradual release, we'd
started these social media
accounts, not because they want
they needed social media, but
because of the industry they
were in, it was part of the
process. But it wasn't something
we were going to just let them
loose on. But I think the next
stage would be, you are at an
age where you can manage your
own. But I'm still logged in. So
you're not getting messages I'm
not seeing you're not getting
comments that you know, so
there's that level of gradual
release. And then ultimately,
you work to that place of you
now have the skills to discern,
you know, these things you have
this understanding of the
strengths and the benefits, but
also the pitfalls and dangers,
and you're ready to be let
loose. Yeah, the last thing you
want is, they move out of the
house and they go to college,
and they finally get Snapchat
and go crazy, right? That's the
goal, right?
Kosta Yepifantsev: I've told
that story before. We're not
gonna say who it was. Anyway, we
always like to end the show on a
high note, who is someone that
makes you better when you're
together? Well,
Dr. Elizabeth Lisic: I would say
without a doubt, my husband,
Alex. So we started dating when
we were 14 grew up together,
right? And so we have now we're
at a point in our life, we have
been together more of our life
than we've been apart, right? We
were married at 19. So Young, so
not for everyone. But we made a
decision at that time of like,
we're going to grow together
versus grow apart. And it's
worked well for us. Because I
think that, you know, we decided
we're always going to be each
other's biggest fans, we're
going to find things to do
together. We are executive
pastors at a price point church,
and we are able to work in that
together, we get to do that part
of our lives side by side, you
know, building community,
focusing on bringing people
together. And so I'd say we're
better together because we made
a decision early on, not to pull
each other in the pit. I don't
know if you know what I mean
when I say that, but we can't
both be down on the same day.
Right. And so what we found is,
you know, if I was having a day
where I was just like, Ah, my
job, I'm so tired of it. The
last thing I need in all
honesty, while it may feel good
for him say yeah, you're right,
that sucks. When it's really the
last thing I need. What I need
is for him to remind me of the
the decisions we've made around
practicing gratitude and lifting
each other up. And I know I know
today it was hard, but remember
that when you had last week or
whatever, and not in a
patronizing way and not in an
annoying way, but just in it.
You're not alone. And I'm not
going to jump down there with
you because it's not going to be
good for us, you know, in the
long run so our family always
says we love first we're not
perfect by any stretch, but we
are I think we're close to each
other needs. I think we're
better together.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Thank you to
our partners Miss Sallie’s
Market for presenting this
episode. I hope it’s no secret
by now, I don’t know my way
around the kitchen. However, I
do know my way to the kitchen.
That’s where Miss Sallie’s
Market comes in. With fresh,
locally sourced to-go meals made
daily, I don’t have to worry
about my cooking skills getting
in the way of our eating skills.
Open 10:00 AM to 8:00 PM Tuesday
through Saturday, Miss Sallie’s
Market is located in the heart
of Downtown Gainesboro with free
community tastings every
Thursday from 4-6. Find out more
about vendors offerings and
weekly specials at
misssallies.com
Morgan Franklin: Thank you for
joining us on this episode of
Better Together with Kosta
Yepifantsev. If you've enjoyed
listening and you want to hear
more, make sure you subscribe on
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Leave us a review or better yet,
share this episode with a
friend. Today's episode was
written and produced by Morgan
Franklin post production mixing
and editing by Mike Franklin.
Want to know more about Kosta
visit us at
kostayepifantsev.com. We're
better together. We'd like to
remind our listeners that the
views and opinions expressed
during this episode are those of
the individual speakers and do
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