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Today, we're thrilled to have Merrilee Burke, a distinguished therapist specializing in mindful drinking and moderation. Merrilee brings a wealth of experience from her practice, focusing on holistic and practical approaches to help individuals transform their relationship with alcohol. In this episode, we dive deep into her therapeutic techniques and explore how they can support your journey toward mindful drinking. Tune in as we uncover valuable insights and actionable strategies from Merrilee's expertise.
Want to drink less with no pressure to quit? Go to https://sunnyside.co for a free 15-day trial.
Want to drink less with no pressure to quit? Go to https://sunnyside.co for a free 15-day trial.
Creators & Guests
What is Journey to the Sunnyside?
"Journey to the Sunnyside" is your guide to mindful living, focusing on health, wellness, and personal growth. Each episode offers insights into topics such as mindful drinking's impact on lifestyle, the science behind habit change, and more. Through conversations with experts and personal stories, the podcast provides listeners with practical tips and knowledge for a more balanced life.
Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, #1 best-selling author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the #1 alcohol moderation platform. If you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15-day trial.
The views expressed in our podcast episodes do not necessarily represent those of Sunnyside. We're determined to bring diverse views of health and wellness to our audience. If you are concerned with your drinking, please seek the advice of a medical professional. Sunnyside, this podcast, and its guests are not necessarily medical professionals and the content shouldn't be viewed as medical advice. In addition, we never condone drinking in any amount.
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and, of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardenbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.
Mike:Today, I'm thrilled to have Marilee Byrd, a therapist specializing in mindful drinking and moderation. Join us as we explore her therapeutic approaches to changing your relationship with alcohol. Today, I'm here with Marilee Burke. Marilee, thanks for coming on the show today.
Merrilee:Thank you so much for having me.
Mike:Well, you are a therapist, and you particularly work with alcohol and substance use therapy. But before we get into all that, why don't you just tell us a little bit about, your practice and how that all came to be, and we'll get started with that.
Merrilee:Okay. Well, my practice, one of the main things that I help my clients work on is changing their relationship with alcohol. So most of my clients are people who aren't entirely happy with with how their drinking is going, but they don't really feel like the label of alcoholic and all the assumptions that come along with that really fit them. A lot of my clients have actually been to AA meetings and thought, you know, this just kind of isn't for me. This isn't describing my experience, and they just don't really relate to it.
Merrilee:So my clients want to work on, you know, whatever problems they're having with drinking, but without abstinence being the end goal. And so we work on their drinking specifically and, you know, setting up boundaries around that and helping them change their habits. And we also work on the underlying issues that are probably contributing to their issues with alcohol.
Mike:Yeah. Everything you just said there is describing me to a tee where I was because I wish I would have met you about 10 years ago. What I've learned over the years is that that is a really common thing as far as what people say. And I a lot of the times when I would question that about myself, I would question, you know, I don't identify with absence or AA. Am I in denial?
Mike:So when a client comes to you, what are some of the first things that you start to talk to them about when they're addressing these concerns with you?
Merrilee:Really, we start with, you know, what's bringing them in, what their concerns are about their relationship with alcohol, and what they would like that to look like instead. And I really try to normalize their experience. A lot of people have had problems with drinking who aren't alcoholics and didn't have to quit forever. You know, sometimes we age out of our problems, and sometimes it takes a little bit of work to figure out what's going on and to change habits or to change, you know, whatever factors are contributing. So I normalize their experience, and I really try to take away some of the shame and let them know that this isn't something for them to feel bad about.
Merrilee:This isn't about a lack of willpower. And let them know that that change is possible, that they really can get to a better place.
Mike:You know, you said 2 words there that I wanna dive into. 1 is shame, and the other one is willpower. Let's start with shame. Is that a really normal thing that people come to you with?
Merrilee:Yes. Because not only are shame based people, which, you know, in case, you know, to to use Brene Brown's definition, you know, it's like guilt is I did something bad, shame is I am bad. So people who don't feel good about themselves are more likely to have issues with alcohol because alcohol makes you feel good about yourself. Right? It's like one of the defining parts of drinking is it makes you feel good.
Merrilee:Right? And and specifically makes you feel good about yourself personally. It makes you feel a little bit more confident. Right? And so so people who have a tendency towards shame might be more inclined to have issues with alcohol.
Merrilee:And then, you know, if you've had bad experiences, if you've embarrassed yourself or you've put yourself in danger or you've done things that were out of character for you, or you just, you know, don't like how you're behaving but don't feel like you have control over. All of those things can cause shame. And the problem with shame is that it actually discourages us from making change because it can tend to to make people feel hopeless and, like, they can't do better. So I try to say, let's put that away. You've made some mistakes.
Merrilee:You're not happy with it. Those were, you know, your behaviors. They're not who you are as a person. Let's figure out what behaviors you wanna be doing instead.
Mike:I mean, that's what I felt all the time and which is so I identify with this because every part of my life, I I wasn't a weak person. I mean, I still worked out. I got up and did everything I did. I ate really healthy. You know, it's almost like everything was in line but this one thing, and I I just built this shame up around that.
Mike:Does the shame and the habit formation and the the repeated cycle, is is that all interrelated?
Merrilee:Yes. Absolutely. You would be surprised or maybe you wouldn't be, but I think a lot of people would be surprised how much people's bad feelings about their drinking causes them to drink more. Because if they're feeling embarrassed, ashamed, worried, you know, the thing that's going to make them feel better is drinking. So the next time they drink, they get a relief from all those bad feelings.
Merrilee:So even though it seems counterintuitive, you know, if we were rational beings, we wouldn't drink more to to feel better about our bad feelings about drinking, but we're not rational beings. We're human beings. And so the kind of shame and guilt and worry spiral that, you know, you have bad feelings about your drinking, then you get relief from those bad feelings the next time you're drinking, then you overdo it, then you have more bad feelings, that cycle is really common.
Mike:What is one what is, like, the basic answer that you would tell somebody that comes in and they're showing shame and guilt? Is there something or a practice you tell them to do to maybe relieve that?
Merrilee:Yeah. I think what helps with that is just talking to me. Talking to someone who wants to understand. You know, I don't I wouldn't pretend I automatically understand everybody's experience because of my own experiences, but my goal is to understand, you know, why they're doing what they're doing. And you can't understand somebody and judge them at the same time.
Merrilee:So just going to a space where they can talk about whatever they're doing, thinking, feeling, and not be judged and be understood instead, I think that that's what starts to really relieve some of the guilt and the shame.
Mike:Let's move to the other word, willpower. I know you have some opinions on that. Why don't you share that a little bit about that when when it comes to willpower, habits, and alcohol specifically?
Merrilee:Right. So that's something that comes up with almost everybody who comes to me is that they feel really bad about themselves because they think they're lacking willpower, because they wanna change the way they're drinking and they haven't been able to yet. So they set a goal. They don't meet the goal. Oh, I must not have willpower.
Merrilee:And what typically is actually going on is that they don't have a lack of willpower, they have competing will. So what I mean by that is it is very normal. It's normal, it's healthy, and it's true for everybody that we all have different parts of our personality. You know, you might say something like, oh, well, part of me wants to rest on my vacation, part of me wants to go somewhere. Right?
Merrilee:It's we we say it all the time. You know, we have childlike parts of us, you know, kinda younger, more immature parts. We have responsible parts. We have the person we are at work, and the person we are with our friends, and the person we are with our family. So very it is true for everyone, and we have these different parts.
Merrilee:Right? So when it comes to drinking, let's say the day after you drank, the day you're hungover maybe, You know, you have a part that's going to really be maybe embarrassed and ashamed. You have a part that's maybe worried about your health. You know, a part that says, wow. Just you can't ever do that again.
Merrilee:Maybe you should just never drink again if that's things like that are going to happen. And that's, you know, maybe that's a Sunday morning. There are Sunday morning parts who show up. Right? And again, just like different parts of us show up at work or in social situations, you know, flash forward to the next weekend, a different part's gonna show up.
Merrilee:We're getting ready to, you know, go out on Friday, let's say. And that part has different goals and has a different perspective. That part might say, you know, you have had a long week. You deserve to relax and cut loose and have fun, or, hey. We're going to this party.
Merrilee:We don't wanna know a lot of people there. You don't wanna be awkward. Just have some drinks. It'll help you relax. So different parts of us have different goals.
Merrilee:So it's, you know, we have the will to be healthy and the will to be responsible. And we also have parts of us that have the will to have fun or to be comfortable in social situations. So these parts are competing against each other. And the goal when I'm working with clients is to help them understand what are the different parts involved in this whole cycle that you're in. And something about our parts that's important to know is that they all have good intentions.
Merrilee:A part that we might describe as self destructive probably isn't trying to destroy us. It's probably trying to help us in some way, but maybe going about it in the wrong way. So it's you know, when I'm working with people, it's like, let's understand all these parts, all their different goals, and help them to compromise and to get to know each other. You know, the part of you that's making decisions about how many drinks to have on a Saturday night isn't there the next day. It doesn't know about the hangover.
Merrilee:It's probably sleeping in. Right? So getting to know all of our parts and understanding, like, hey. This isn't lack of willpower. This is a pendulum that's swinging back and forth.
Merrilee:And we wanna stop the pendulum and come to a kind of agreement to all of our parts can be comfortable.
Mike:I would love to keep going down this route, and, of course, I took us as a host down a little bit off the path. And so before I get us way off track, I wanna back us off a little bit to kinda like this overarching, idea of, you know, a lot of people are considering when it comes to alcohol. You know? Hey. I wanna change.
Mike:Should I cut back? You know? Maybe should I take an extended break? Should I give it up forever and go to abstinence route? And so if somebody comes to you and says, you know, it's being problematic in my life.
Mike:What should I do? And they maybe toss that out to you. How do you deal with that?
Merrilee:Well, that's something, you know, I let them know that it's never a therapist's job to tell them what they should do. That's not my role. The only person I get to decide who what they should do is myself. So, you know, I let them know that it I don't I really honestly don't have an opinion about what they should do because that's not my place. My role is to help them figure out what they want to do and what's best for that.
Merrilee:So I would say, you know and and, you know, alcoholics, some people wanna know if they're an alcoholic, and that's actually not a diagnosis. If they find it helpful, I can help them to understand if they might have an alcohol use disorder diagnosis, but that's only if they ask me. That I I don't find diagnosis to be especially helpful for people because it's, again, it's another label that might make them feel, you know, that it's harder to just change their habits than it might be. So I would say, you know, there there are no shoulds here. There's just, you know, what's working for you, what isn't, and and what do you want your your relationship with alcohol to look like going forward?
Mike:I love the idea that whatever your goal is, you get to choose that because it is such a complex issue that people deal with, and and it arises it for a variety of reasons. So we talk about potentially, like, alcohol as a symptom of a problem. What's the starting point when you're working with somebody to maybe try to uncover what some of those, problems are that are being symptomatic with the alcohol use?
Merrilee:Mhmm. Well, we usually start with the alcohol itself and setting boundaries and setting goals. And so this is where things like tracking your drinks comes in, keeping a drinking journal, using the Sunny Side app so that you can keep track of how many drinks you're having, how often you're drinking. You know, you can start setting goals because, really, if you wanna make changes, you have to know what's already going on. Right?
Merrilee:So so that's where we start. It's like, you know, I'm a big proponent of measuring. People really don't understand a lot of times how important that is that what they think might be a drink or a glass of wine. They might actually be having 2 or 3 and not even realizing. So really, you know, I bring in kind of the practical, the strategic aspect of it first.
Merrilee:It's like, let's just focus on the drinking and get that under control. And then we start talking and, you know, I wanna know everything about them when they first come in because anything going on in someone's life could be contributing to the problems they're having with alcohol. So I wanna know about how do they feel about their job or their career? How do they feel about their personal relationships? How do they feel about their finances?
Merrilee:You know? And then I wanna know about them as a person. I wanna know, are they anxious? Are they depressed? Do they have low self esteem or low self worth?
Merrilee:And we also you know, we go into the past because I wanna know the history of their drinking. You know, how long have they been having the problems they're having, but also when did they start drinking, and what was that like, and what instigated that the the start of the relationship. And, also, if someone has past trauma that is not resolved, that can often contribute to alcohol problems because someone might not even recognize that whatever they're struggling with today is actually actually related to something that happened years or decades ago. And so if you don't really know what the root of the problem is, it's a lot harder to address it. And a short term solution like drinking can seem like a good idea in those kinds of situations.
Merrilee:So so, really, I take a full like, let's look at all this, like, 360 degree angle because everyone's different, and anything could be a potential trigger for drinking problems.
Mike:What do you say to people that come to you and say, maybe I'm drinking too much, but it I don't think it's a problem, and, you know, you wanna maybe dig a little deeper as into what's the root of why they're drinking too much. And the response is basically, I just like drinking. I like drinking, and sometimes I get carried away with it, or I go to the weekends and, you know, I'm with my friends and but I go out every weekend. So you know, but I wanna change my relationship with alcohol. What's the starting point in that case?
Merrilee:I think, you know, typically, if someone's coming to me, they feel like it's a prob maybe they don't think it's a problem in the in, like, the kind of more antiquated version of you have a problem with alcohol and all those things. So maybe that's why they might avoid using the word problem. But
Mike:Yeah.
Merrilee:You know, if they were happy with it, they wouldn't be coming to see me.
Mike:Well, let me throw this in. Let me throw this in. Let's say you take your hat off as a therapist and you're having a conversation with somebody, and they're just talking about wanting to reduce or something like that. Do you would you take any other kind of conversational approach with that?
Merrilee:Yeah. That would be different if somebody was asking me in a in a personal setting. So I think the first thing I would probably do is, you know, recommend something like the Sunny Side app and say, hey. You know, there are these apps that help you track your drinking and keep track and and, you know, set goals and that kind of thing, and there's accountability. And, you know, let them start there because some people, there really might not be deeper issues.
Merrilee:It could just be bad habits that maybe started when they were younger, and they were binge drinking with their friends, and now they've kind of outgrown up, but they don't know how to change the habit. So I would just start there. I would just say, hey. You know? There there are tools that can help you change habits.
Merrilee:And then I would probably say, you know, and if if those don't work, if you think there might be some underlying issues, you probably wanna find a moderation friendly therapist.
Mike:Yeah. No. That's good. So speaking of moderation friendly therapist, what are you work with mindfulness based psychotherapy. Can you tell me what that is actually?
Merrilee:Well, mindfulness is you know, I don't know if you experience this when you talk to people about mindfulness, but a lot of people have a really negative reaction to the idea of mindfulness. And I think I think what it is is they equate mindfulness to meditation, and meditation is something they think is boring and that they're bad at. Right? Yep. So I try to get people away from that.
Merrilee:You know, what what meditation is really doing is training you how to be aware of what your mind is doing. But you don't necessarily need to meditate to be able to do that. So what I want to to do with my clients who are, trying to change their relationship with alcohol is help them to bring mindfulness into that, to bring mindful awareness into their drinking. So, you know, being mindful while you're drinking, that's advanced. That's way down the road because that's you know, alcohol is going to really get in the way of us being self aware.
Merrilee:But what I try to do is help them to be mindful before they start drinking. So we use, what we call mindfulness checklists, and I have them do it before they drink. And I tell them don't do it no more than 5 minutes because if it's longer than 5 minutes, you probably won't do it and then it's not going to help. So I just have them check-in with what they're feeling physically. You know, are they tired?
Merrilee:Are they hungry? Are they, does something hurt? You know? Check-in with their emotions. Are they sad?
Merrilee:Are they nervous? Are they frustrated? Notice any triggers. You know, did you just have a fight with someone? Are you going into a social situation that's going to make you uncomfortable?
Merrilee:Anything that could be a trigger besides, you know, their physical feelings and their emotions. And then finally, what are your goals? What do you want your drinking to look like in this particular usually evening could be daytime. What do you want it to look like? How many drinks do you wanna have?
Merrilee:When do you wanna stop? You know, picturing what you what you want that to look like because then you're, you know, you're paying attention to what's going on inside of you and what your goals are, and you're a lot more likely to be successful if you've really been mindful about these things beforehand.
Mike:These are really good steps. Are there a couple practices that are your favorite? They have urge surfing. You have breath work. They're the of course, meditation that maybe some people don't identify with, myself included, to be honest.
Mike:Are there a couple things that you tend to think work better, you know, or easier to do for most people?
Merrilee:You know, I don't typically do a lot of those things anymore. I used to do them a lot when I worked in treatment facilities because those tended to be DVT or CVT based treatment facilities. So we'd use a lot of those kinds of, you know, exercises that can help people. I I feel like just making it personal, like helping someone to figure out what mindfulness looks like for them and to kinda figure out what works and what doesn't. Sometimes we'll use mantras.
Merrilee:And a mantra can be nice because, you know, you're you're bringing up this thought. And maybe the mantra is something like, I wanna feel good tomorrow. Right? And that's the thought that you wanna have when you need to have it. You know, when you've let's say you say you're gonna have 3 drinks, but you're really wanting that 4th drink, you know, and so maybe you say a mantra for 30 seconds.
Merrilee:I just say, set a timer on your phone, 30 seconds, and you're just going to repeat, I want to feel good tomorrow. I want to feel good tomorrow. And the hope is that if you really focus on that idea, it's going to come up later when you really need it. So but, again, we just we try different things, and and some clients say, oh my god. I love the mindfulness check, and it's changed everything.
Merrilee:And some clients do it once ago. You know? Not not really my thing. So it's just everybody's different, and that's part of the fun of being a therapist.
Mike:Yeah. I like that. And I really like putting things framing things in a positive light instead of, like, taking things away. Like, I can't drink tonight. You know?
Mike:I wanna feel better tomorrow, or I'm gonna feel amazing, or I'm gonna wake up early. I always love reframing it not in a mind of scarcity, but a a mind of, like, what you're gaining. But there is one that that worked for me, and I'd love for you as a therapist to pick it apart is that one little cue that worked for or trigger word that I would say whenever I'd be questioning my resolve was I've never regretted skipping a drink, but I've always regretted the times that I've given in. But I've never, you know, not regretted it. What do you think of that?
Merrilee:Well, I think I mean, I think, 1, if it worked for you, fantastic. And if it works for anybody, great. I will say, you know, there have been times when I've
Mike:had this experience or somebody else has where,
Merrilee:you know, maybe they stopped drinking early and then, experience or somebody else has where, you know, maybe they stopped drinking early and then they got a headache or they got really bored or you know, there are times when somebody's like, oh, maybe I should have
Mike:had one more drink. Maybe I would have
Merrilee:had a better there are times when somebody's like, oh, maybe I should have had one more drink. Maybe I would have had a better time. It doesn't come up that often. And usually the balance of, you know, if you're really not having a good time once you stop drinking, you probably weren't having that great of a time anyway. So, you know, just and I think you're right.
Merrilee:I think, you know, even if you don't have as much fun at a party or a social gathering as you could have, if you'd had more drinks, you know, then there's the trade off for how you're gonna feel the next day because tomorrow matters too. It's not just what's happening tonight.
Mike:No. That's very true. And there have been a couple times, so it's not that's obviously an extreme that I was telling myself where I said, you know, one more could have made me a little bit more lively and kept me there a little longer. However, that regret is definitely less is less regrettable than the other, and so it's usually kept me on point. So so I got a question.
Mike:You have an opinion on how to look at alcohol. There's 2 words. You know, one would be a relationship. The other would be a problem. Why don't you share that perspective?
Merrilee:You know, I have found that if we treat alcohol like a relationship, it really helps people to get more clarity. Because I think that we understand and accept that, you know, our relationships with people are complicated. And if we look at our relationship with alcohol as something that could be complicated and could have ups and downs, it really helps people to to understand it better. So for instance and I'll ask you and, you know, if you feel comfortable talking about this. Let's say alcohol was a friend.
Merrilee:How would you describe what your friendship was like, you know, and really think about, like, pretend it's a person. What was that relationship like before you were moderating, and how would you describe it now?
Mike:Before I was moderating, when it was, like, in a place that I wasn't very happy with it. If it was a person that I was thinking that's a good question. I would say it's kinda like a friend that picked you up and you went out for the evening and you were having fun and put their arm around you. You guys are laughing, having a little bit of time. And then that friend kinda drove you out in the middle of nowhere and you left you there to to deal with how you're gonna pick up all the pieces and get home.
Merrilee:Exactly. Yeah. And what how would you describe that relationship now?
Mike:I would say it's the friend that picks you up, but they don't pick you up quite as often. And you just go out and have a a good short time together and say goodbye at the evening. And then you call maybe or they call you, you know, when it's convenient.
Merrilee:Exactly. Right. Yeah. So when you think about it, what's it like to then think about how the whole of it was a person and how you would feel about it then?
Mike:Well, you wouldn't wanna be friends with the first one. Exactly.
Merrilee:Yeah. Hey. We we we wouldn't put up with that. You know, I had a a client recently who had some really serious health consequences from their drinking. And I said, you know, if you had a friend who you got together with and usually you had fun, but occasionally they put you in the hospital, you know, would you still wanna be friends with that person?
Merrilee:And and that's one of those things that just it kinda clears things up for people, and it really helps them to to recognize that they have the choice here, that it's really what do they want and what is working for them as opposed to all these other outside voices finding what they should do. It really just helps them to have perspective on, like, what is this like for you, and is this acceptable to you?
Mike:Yeah. So I wanna dig in on that and take like a devil's advocate and say, you know, from the, abstinence, camp that would say, woah. If you're gonna put it like that, then why would you ever invite it back in any way, shape, or form?
Merrilee:Uh-huh. Well, I think, you know, we're we have free will. Right? And that's something that therapists we really wanna support people and is having autonomy, making their own choices. And people, we take risks all the time with our life.
Merrilee:Right? We every time we get in a car, we're taking a risk. You know, even crossing the street is a risk. And and, you know, we don't all eat, you know, vegetables all the time. You know, it's like there are foods that that we eat that we know maybe are the best for us, but we still make the choice.
Merrilee:Right? So we have free will. We have, you know, the ability to make decisions. And, you know, sometimes we'll make a choice that maybe isn't the best for us short term or maybe isn't the best for our health. But for whatever reason, it feels like the right thing to us.
Merrilee:So my goal is, you know, help the person decide what's right for them. And, again, if you when you tell people this is what's right for you, this is what you have to do, you know, sometimes they they're just going to shut you out, and they're going to keep doing what they're doing because now they feel like it's something they have to protect. Whereas if you open it up to them and say, hey. Look. You can do whatever you wanna do, and I'm still going to be here, and I'm not going to judge you.
Merrilee:But what do you want to do?
Mike:Okay. So when it comes to moderation, I'm really curious to hear your answer to this is, is there a time frame that we should give ourselves to see, hey. This is the route that's gonna work for me, or is there a point where you should just say, like, you've fallen over enough times to just say, maybe moderation is not the right way for me? Mhmm.
Merrilee:We'll see there and you'll notice the should came up again. Right? It's like we do wanna look for to outside sources to say, you know, what should I do? And, again, it would come come down to the person and what else is going on in their life. You know?
Merrilee:If they're having, you know, really difficult time in their life, if they have unresolved issues, let's say, with their partner and, you know, the only time they tell their partner what they really think is when they're drinking, but there's a part of them that might be using alcohol in order to do that, in order to cope with something. So, you know, if the underlying issue is still there, you know, you can't expect the relationship with alcohol to change because, again, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It doesn't exist on its own. Now if someone is causing harm to themselves or harm to someone else, that's diff you know, that's something where, you know, you know, that's where you're probably gonna wanna draw the line and at least take a break from drinking and abstain for a while until other things are resolved. But that's never there's never been a time working with my clients where that was a situation and they didn't recognize it.
Merrilee:They always recognize it first, and then they tell me, hey. This needs to stop. I can't do this anymore. I wanna stop drinking. You know, it's always their decision.
Merrilee:I've never worked with somebody who was putting themselves or somebody else in danger and didn't care and didn't recognize that that was something that need
Mike:Yes. And you said something there that I identify so much with, and that is, like, flexibility, I think. You know, that things will change, circumstances will change. Who you are will change as a person. We all look back 10 years ago and say I was a totally different person.
Mike:And the same person that maybe decided myself included in my story was that, you know, first, it was an extended break, then it was I'm not gonna have anything at all. And then over time, I did some experiments that am I gonna reintroduce and moderate, and that actually worked for me. But I still go in and out of sometimes, I'll be on an extended break. Sometimes, you know, it's the holidays, and I'm gonna allow myself to moderate during that maybe more than another month. And I think that just the ability to know that, hey.
Mike:We're always evolving. We're always changing. We're always growing. Circumstances may be more difficult or easier. So I I I just love what you just said there as far as, like, you know, having flexibility.
Merrilee:And I think that's really great what you're talking about too about letting your relationship with with alcohol be whatever is working for you in the moment. Because I've had clients who were afraid to to take a month off or to take a break from drinking because they thought, well, what are people going to think of me? Are they going to assume I have some kind of a problem or that I can't handle drinking? And they're actually afraid to take breaks. And that's why things like, you know, dry January, and I think is it sober October?
Merrilee:Yep. You know, people are there's this sober curious movement that I think is so great because it gives us the flexibility to to go with whatever is working for us in the moment, to take a break if we need to take a break or to not drink for a while or to bring alcohol back and not have everybody raise their eyebrows. What? You're drinking again? Like, you know, what what's wrong kind of thing.
Merrilee:So I think it's so great that we're kinda moving into this idea of, you know, these gray areas and this flexibility, like you said. And I think, you know, the the more we can have that, the more likely we're gonna have people having better relationships.
Mike:Yes. I love that. Is there a movement going on that you feel that you're seeing within your practice where people are realizing that there are different options out there that it's not just the all or nothing attitude? Are you seeing that grow and grow?
Merrilee:Absolutely. And that's, you know, that's when my clients find me is when they find that out. When they find out, you know, hey. Wait. There there is help or, you know, if I just wanna change my relationship with alcohol.
Merrilee:Not that I wanna stop altogether, but there are people that can help me meet my goals, whatever my goals are. And so, usually, they find that out first, and then, I'm listed on the moderation management therapist directory, which is a directory of moderation friendly therapists. And, you know, usually, they they find out about this kind of moderation or harm reduction approach. They start researching it and looking into it, and then they stumble across a directory and find out, oh, there's somebody who can help me with this. So, yes, I think as we're kinda moving toward this different perspective on alcohol and substance use, that is what is, you know, kind of sending clients my way.
Merrilee:And I really hope that some therapists will start to find out that this is a way of working with clients, that it doesn't have to be, you know, abstinence only, that you really can, you know, help people to change this this issue that or these problems in their life with alcohol just like you would help them change any other problem.
Mike:Yeah. So but, I mean, aligning to somebody's goal is, I think, rather than defining it for them, is really just such an empowering thing for people that gives them confidence to be able to to pave the road that they want in their lives. Mhmm. So we this has been incredible. I love talking to you.
Mike:I actually would love to talk to you again and dig into more details. But before we go, why don't you share either one thing that's on your mind that you didn't get to say or something that you're really excited about and that could be like a trip for a new project that you're on?
Merrilee:Well, I've been really excited about this, about getting to talk to you and be on this podcast. So that's been, the exciting thing on my mind lately. And the other thing that I would say is just to anybody who might, you know, have picked up this podcast and be listening to it is, you know, don't wait. You can get to a better place, and you'll feel so much better when you do. And you don't have to wait for some kind of rock bottom thing to happen.
Merrilee:You can if you're not happy right now, you can start making the changes now. You can download the SunnySide app and start tracking and setting goals. Or, you know, if you feel like your issues maybe go a little bit deeper than habit change, you know, go on and start working with a therapist now, especially because I think this fall with the election that we're having in this country, it's gonna be a really stressful time. I think there's going to be a lot of frustration and worry and conflict. And if you're already concerned about your relationship with alcohol, start working on it now.
Merrilee:Start trying to get to a better place now. There's really there's no need to wait. So, yeah, just, just know that that change is possible and that you can get to a better place. And why why do it tomorrow? Why not do it today?
Mike:Yes. And I feel like I said that you have been talking directly to me because I will say I never hit a rock bottom, and I'd said to myself, why did I wait too long? Well, thank you so much. This has been an amazing episode, and, I can't wait to share it.
Merrilee:Thank you so much. Thanks, again, for having me.
Mike:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped 100 of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in 90 days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Mike:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.