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This is a space for coaches, trainers, and leaders who love the game — but don’t want the game to cost them their family, their integrity, or their soul.
Here, we talk about leadership, pressure, culture, identity, and the quiet tensions no one prepares you for when you step into coaching.
This isn’t about chasing wins at all costs.
It’s about restoring what the game was meant to form in us — and in the players we lead.
This podcast is presented by the Beloved Coaches Collective, a community committed to coaching from identity, not insecurity.
I’m Coach Sanders.
Let’s redeem the game — one coach at a time.
Audio Only - All Participants:
welcome back everybody to the
Redeeming the Game podcast.
I am your host Coach Matt Sanders, and
today ladies and gentlemen, boys and
girls, and yes, children of all ages,
th- this screen is lit on fire today.
Uh, I have the privilege of interviewing
on this podcast, uh, two of my former
lady basketball players, and, um, just
shout out to you two for joining today.
Um, I think it's super important, um,
for everybody to know, I, I say it a
lot on socials and I say it a lot on
here, but I, you know, I spent what?
One full year here in Kansas City as
the head women's basketball coach and
four and a half-ish in, uh, Georgia
as a head women's basketball coach.
So I have done it.
I would not, and I think both of these
young ladies will, uh, probably jump right
in and say I didn't do it extremely well.
It's definitely not right up my alley.
Um, it's okay to laugh.
Um, I, uh, Iâ¦
but I was privileged to be with these
two young ladies as we built a, uh, a
season of a championship, and they are
going to share with us today about,
um, how the championship of the, that
season, but most importantly, how
basketball in its entirety has, uh,
really affected and transformed them
into the, uh, wife, wife to be and the
wife that she is, uh, going forward.
So without further ado, um, we
have, uh, two Ks in the room.
Uh, Katie was McGee, now Hammons.
And, uh, Miss Caitlin Zamora, almost Murr.
And I'm super grateful for both of you.
Thank you for being here.
Katie is, uh, from Alaska, and
we're gonna let her unpack that.
And Caitlin is actually from right
here in Kansas City, but has moved,
and I'm gonna let her unpack that.
So ladies, welcome.
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah.
Gonna be a party.
Let's go.
Good to be here.
Yeah.
I'm so excited about that being here.
A joy and an honor and a privilege.
Yeah.
A joy, joy.
Yeah.
Uh, ladies and gentlemen, this will likely
be a roast fest, and we might get to that.
100%.
Yeah.
It's just too easy.
He just hands it out like candy.
So easy.
And it's just so easy, like
taking candy from a baby.
Yeah.
Okay.
He just throws the lob every time.
Yep.
Uh, hey, listen, I'm a PG at heart.
I can do it.
I can do it.
All right.
So here's the first lob to you, Katie.
Why don't you unpack for these ladies
and gentlemen who are listening about
where you're from and who you are?
Just give us a little bit about you.
Yeah.
So, um, my name's Katie.
I grew up in a very, very,
very small town in Alaska.
Um- And there's only about 200 people
that live there, roughly, give or take.
Um, and my parents are missionaries.
They run a Bible camp there,
which is why they are there.
They're originally from Michigan.
So I get that question a lot, like, "Why,
why are you there and why are you here?"
So, um, I moved to Kansas City for
college, and then met my husband,
and we got married coming up on
a year ago now, which is crazy.
Um, and, uh, we decided to stay
in Kansas City for the time being.
So, um, but yeah, I, uh, discovered or
I, I discovered Calvary, um When I was
looking for post high school options,
my older brother actually ended up
going to Calvary and, uh, studying
youth ministry, and I was gonna go
to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago,
and he said, "You know what, Katie?
You hate the city.
Why would you go to a school that's, you
know, like straight up downtown Chicago?"
And I was like, "Yeah,
that's a good point."
So I decided to check out Calvary
and, um, kind of fell in love with it,
fell in love with the people there.
And so that's how I
kinda got to Kansas City.
Um, but, um, yeah, part of my
family, I have three brothers.
Two of them are married, and we
have a nephew and two nieces, so
super fun when we get to visit them.
Um, and all of us, all of my siblings
and I played sports growing up.
We all played volleyball and basketball.
Some of us ran cross country, um, so
very active family, active childhood.
So, um, yeah.
Killed lots of grizzly bears in the
Alaskan out- With my bare hands too.
With myâ¦
No, I'm kidding.
Okay, Katie, uh, you, you set up a little
point here before I move over to Caitlin.
Um, both of these young ladies
played for me at Calvary University.
Shout out CU and the Warriors.
So just wanted to, uh, put that
out there, um, so everybody
has a little bit of a context.
Okay.
Miss Caitlin Zamora, tell us
a little bit more about you.
Yeah.
Well, I grew up in Kansas City,
which is nowhere near as cool
as Alaska, I will say that.
Um, I grew up about 10 minutes away
from Calvary, so, um, actually grew
up, like, going to Calvary's gym
when I was a little girl, like going
to hoop with my dad on Sundays.
And, um, so I knew about Calvary my
entire life and never thought that the
Lord would lead me back to my hometown
to play, um, let alone play basketball.
So, um, yeah.
After I went to Calvary, graduated, I
now am in North Carolina, um, which my
fiance lives and is from North Carolina,
so I moved out here when I graduated.
Um, I don't know, did a little
bit of stuff here and there.
Right now I'm doing some marketing and,
um- Social media, communications, that
kind of stuff for a business up here.
So, um, that's kind of
where, um, yeah, I was led.
Um, business owner goes to the church I
go to here, and so just crazy connections
and, um, led me to start my career off.
Um, got my bachelor's degree in, um,
in business, and so yeah, starting
that off and hopefully looking to
partner with, um, you guys don't
really know this yet, but with Jonah.
I'm doing some marketing stuff, and he
has his own- Love it ⦠LLC, so- Yeah
⦠we'll see where that goes, but yeah, so.
Unpacking stuff right here on the podcast.
Yeah.
Let's go.
Awesome.
Let's go.
I love it.
Yeah.
I love it.
Yep.
Well, thank you both.
I, um, I w- it would beâ¦
I would be remiss to, to say if I didn't
say to both of you I love you very much.
I'm very grateful for both of you, and
you mean a lot to me, April, and AJ,
and the dog, um, yeah, who is upside
down asleep- Humphrey ⦠the other
side of the, uh- Shout out Humphrey.
Shout out Humphrey.
Um, now Caitlin- Matt, Matt's best friend.
That's exactly right.
Your husband's best friend, which is wild.
We don't really know why.
Um, okay.
So, uh, Caitlin, you said something
that's really important as we start
to unpack the, the very first segment
here, and I think it's, uh, it, it's
really interesting what you said.
Um, that you and, you and Katie's
lives were worlds away, and weâ¦
The, the title of this episode is, is
Different Stories And One Redeemer, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, um, we are all united
under the faith, right?
Jesus is, is the Redeemer, uh, the
Righteous One, and so I think it's
super important for everybody to
understand, like, what this podcast
is about today is about s- how you
two are s- from so far apart, and yet
brought together by, one, by the, by the
Spirit of God drew you to, uh, Calvary.
I, I, I would not ever, umâ¦
not ar- I would ar- not argue that at all.
I think that that's exactly how it
happened, and yet basketball's the
vehicle, and this is what this is about.
And, uh, ladies and gentlemen, I want you
to know that I have been coaching and been
around coaches for almost 35 years now,
and I don't know two more people, males
or females, than on this podcast right
now, two more females that absolutely
love basketball and burn for it.
Um, extremely talented players,
uh, high IQ, and I can't wait
for you guys to hear them unpack
basketball and Jesus, as my son says.
So let's, let's dive in- ⦠and,
and let's, let's, let's just roll
right into the, the, the stories,
how so different they are, but
how Jesus really redeemed you.
So, um, what was like, life like
for both of you, um, before Calvary?
Oof
You wanna go first?
Oh, I can go, yeah.
I don't know.
It's not, I mean, sure.
That's, that's a bad
host move right there.
I should have said- I, no.
Caitlin, we'll stay with you.
My bad.
No, no, no.
Okay.
So to be completely honest, and
if we're being transparent, and
this is, this is chill, right?
Like, we're just being honest.
Um, my life was totally full
of, like, sin and shame.
Like, I had, after high school,
like graduated, went down a
path of, like, running from God.
Like, I was saved from a young age,
like probably eight or nine, baptized,
like went to church, did all of the
faithful things that you would say
like, "Oh, she checked the boxes."
Mm-hmm.
Um, but then just went
down a really dark path.
Um, and so I, I was also
a volleyball player.
Like, I did not love basketball.
Like, I did not expect to
play basketball in college.
I was actually going to enlist into the
Navy because my dad was in the Navy.
Okay.
Okay, I got you.
And I'm like, "This is
like- Yep, let's do it
I'm not, I'm not getting college paid for.
Like, this is the ro- like,
this is what I'm doing.
And, um, at a random tournament last
se- like last season of basketball
in the winter, and got recruited by a
coach, like from a different school.
I played at a, um, a, I
don't know what you call it.
A JUCO.
Yeah, community college, JUCO.
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
I played at a JUCO my first
year, and they recruited me.
And like, this is, this will tell you,
like, how just, like, not successful
I was at basketball in high school.
My coach, I have never seen my coach
cry before, and he came in and he was
like, "Caitlin Zamora was just asked
about, like, by a c- like a recruiter."
Like, he said that to my whole team, and
like- ⦠everyone was, like, jumping
up and down, like the water bottles.
Like, it was wild.
And I was like- Come
on ⦠there's no way.
Like, this isn't real.
And so I was just was like, "Okay,
I mean, I guess I'll try it out."
Went and visited, whatever.
Okay, so then, um, first year,
like, I didn't even get to play.
Like, I had to medically red shirt.
Broke my foot.
And so then I had to go back to
Kansas City and have surgery,
and I was like, "It's over.
Like, I'm not ever playing
a sport in college.
Like, I'm just gonna have to
work and like figure it out."
Um- And then just from connections, like
early on in life, um, the head coach
at Calvary at the time recruited me,
and I was like, "Dude, I can't play.
Like, I'm in terrible shape.
Like, I just had surgery."
He was like, "Just come on, like,
we'll, we'll get you right."
And so, um, just immediately,
like just from going to visit
there, um, the interactions I had.
I actually met Katie.
Katie was like one of the first
girls I met when I went to
visit, and she was so sweet.
And then, like, I don't know, just
everyone I met from there on out,
like I just felt this pull, um, to
go back to church, to rededicate
my life to Christ, to stop running.
Like, and I was like, this is
the direction I need to be in
because I need to surround myself
with the right kind of people.
Um, and so I made the decision to
go, and um, yeah, just decided to
not do things my own way anymore.
Like, just kind of surrender it all and
moved back, like moved back
to Kansas City, gave it all
up, like everything before.
And so, um, yeah, from there
just everything was- Come
on ⦠like a snowball.
Like everything- Come on ⦠started
accumulating, and it was just like-
So good ⦠okay, yeah, this is the
best decision I've ever made, so.
Come on.
Yeah.
Wow.
So cool.
Katie, like, I, it, the- the
differences here is this is
what this podcast is about.
Can't wait to hear.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's crazy, when I met
Z, she had, uh, bangs.
Oh, yeah.
It's the first time I met her-
Oh, yeah ⦠she had bangs.
If that says anything of how good that
I was.
And she was in her scrubs.
She had bangs.
In the scrubs.
And in the scrubs.
Oh, man.
And I remember walking out of his office,
'cause we were like, I was in his office,
and she was coming in to meet with him,
and I was like, "Who is that girl?"
And then, uh, everything changed.
Yeah.
That's wild.
Okay.
Co- so Katie, what was
life like before Calvary?
So, man, before Calvary there
was just a lot going on in
my life, I think, in my head.
Um, so, uh, in the- in the name of
transparency and just, like keeping it
100, I, like through high school I didn't
really have, um, a lot of great friends.
I had one, like really close
friend that I've had for years.
She's been my, like one of my closest
friends since we were in kindergarten.
Um, and she and I just dealt with a lot
in high school with some people, and, um,
there was always just a lot of pressure to
fit in and, like be someone who I was not.
And, um, so I had a lot of
like, I always have toâ¦
I felt like I had to perform for a lot
of people and, um, be this person even
though I wanted to just be myself.
Um, but I didn't feel like I could
be myself, so coming to Calvary, I
had a mindset of like, okay, like
I get to have a clean slate, and-
Mm-hmm ⦠um, I get to start over with
people that I've never met, and I'll be
coming onto this team, um, of people.
And so I'll have like,
friends right off the bat.
Um, and so that, yeah.
And I was justâ¦
I was so ready to go to college.
I was so ready to get out of my
hometown and experience, um, life
not in a tiny little village.
Um, as much as I love my hometown,
I love the people there so much,
they're so dear to my heart, but I
was so ready to, for something new.
Um, and getting to Calvary- Yeah, it was,
it was a, it was a long road at first.
There was a lot, um, I think that I
didn't expect to happen that happened.
Um, but yeah, it's kind
of short and sweet.
Nothing crazy like- Well, I, no, I
think, I think that's really good
because I think that the, uh, the-
the one thing that I want everybody
to hear is that this podcast is,
is built around the, the redemption
of what basketball was created for.
And you see how both of you were,
like, way far apart distance
wise, and yet you are so alike
in what you were before you came.
Like, you, you, you weren't
really interested in playing
college basketball, and then boom.
And then you were really not wanting
to be where you were, and then boom,
and here's basketball in your world.
And God just using the game
of basketball to unite you.
I mean, there's a, there's a wedding
coming before long, and both of you
have been in each other's weddings.
I want you to think about the beauty
of what, the way that God uses
basketball to unite us and redeem
things in us that were broken.
Yeah.
And still doing it, right?
And that's what this podcast is about.
And I want coaches to hear that.
I'm, that's why, uh, I'mâ¦
to be really honest, that's why
I was super excited for both of
you to come on, because I know
how transparent both of you are.
Maybe we need to pump the
brakes at times, but not today.
We're gonna go after it,
because both of you- Um-
both of you are very, um, very
honest people, and I really
appreciate that about both of you.
Yeah.
So, okay.
So did, did, uh, Katie,
we'll keep it with you.
Did you dream about
playing college basketball?
So no, that's actually what I was gonna
say, is I, the only reason I ever started
playing basketball was because, um, my
best friend was like, "Hey, I'm gonna,
like, like, go to practice today."
Um, and I was like, "Oh, okay."
And then I thought about it and I was
like, well, like, basketball could be fun.
Like, I could, you know,
hang out with people.
And then I just fell in
love with it after that.
And no oneâ¦
so from my hometown, again, 200 people.
There was like 40 people in the school
K through 12, so there's maybe 20 people
in the high school average each year.
And so going and playing on, in college
in any sport was not a common thing.
Um, so I didn't ever really think
about it until one guy from my
high school, he graduated in 2020.
He actually went to Calvary,
played for Coach Matt Sanders,
the same as, uh, Coulson.
And he was the first person from my high
school to go play any sport in college.
Wow.
But he did play basketball.
Um, and- At that point, I was
considering Calvary, and I was
like, "Man," like, "I wonder if I
could play basketball at Calvary.
That would be really something."
Like, not because I wanted, like,
attention or, like, to feel like,
oh, I'm that girl, you know?
But it was like, man, like I don't haveâ¦
It doesn't have to end in high school.
Come on.
So I would say, like, my junior year
is when I started really thinking
about it and working towards it, and
I was blessed with a coach, um, in
high school who played at a veryâ¦
Uh, she played the D1 level, um, went to
the March Madness tournament many times.
Um, and she, when she caught wind of
me wanting to go play in college, she
really poured into me and- Come on
helped me, like, prepare for that.
Um- So good ⦠so yeah.
I, I don't think it was a, a lifelong
dream, but it was something that just
kind of fell into my lap, which I know
is, like I'm so grateful for, 'cause that
doesn't just happen all the time, so.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Caitlin, I know you kind of spoke to it
a little bit, but, like, did you have
the little girl hoop dreams of, you know?
The little girl hoop dreams.
Um- Well, uh, hold on, hold on.
Before you say
that, w- you- it, Iâ¦
What sparked that was what I, in
my mind, kind of, uh, I'm, I'm
processing here as the interviewer.
You, the, the girl say she's hooping
with her dad on Sunday, so- Yeah.
Mm ⦠that's what went through my mind.
Do you have the, did you have those little
girl hoop dreams of like, "Hey, maybe I'll
play on this court one day," you know?
Yeah.
I think if you would've asked me
that, like four years ago, no.
But as I look back and think about
those moments, I'm like, I just
wanted to be my, like my dad.
Like, I- Come on ⦠I
just wanted to do, likeâ¦
And like my mom.
The reason I played volleyball
was because of my mom.
Like, and so I think we're
so shaped by stuff like that.
Yeah.
Obviously, I think people have
those things just int- like, just
that's just how they were made.
I think that is something that was
formed in me, and- Wow ⦠um, a lot
of it was just, yeah, because of the
experiences I had with my earthly father.
And I think that's such a, like, metaphor
for like, we just see, like, who God is,
and we, like, are created in his image.
And so- Yeah ⦠we, like, we're just so
enamored at that age with, like- Who our
dad is, and so I just think about that.
Sorry, I just made that connection,
but I just thought about that.
Um- It's powerful.
Yeah, no.
Shout out, shout out dads.
'Cause then I think about it now,
like- Shout out both dads here.
Because that's- Yes
who God calls us to be now.
Yeah.
It's like, look at me-
Come on ⦠that way.
Like, be- Yeah ⦠enamored with me.
Want to spend time with me.
Like- Yeah ⦠and so I
think, um, I think yes.
Like, I probably- Come
on ⦠wouldn't have admitted a
couple years ago, but like, yes.
Like- It's powerful ⦠100%.
Um, and soâ¦
But then I think there's that
pressure to perform that comes from
that of like, I want to be good so
that my dad will be proud of me.
Mm.
And so then- Ooh ⦠when those
expectations weren't met for my,
myself, like in high school, then
that dream kind of- Mm ⦠dwindled
down a little bit 'cause I was like,
"Oh, this isn't realistic for me."
Mm.
Um- Goodness ⦠so, like, who I was
before basketball became big to me is,
like, I had very low expectations and I
was like, "This may not go well for me."
Mm.
Um, but then God, like,
exceeded my expectations.
Um, just because it just, like,
completely reshaped, like, the way
that I thought about everything.
So yeah, it just was.
Did, did, did somebody give you, did
somebody give you the whole podcast plan?
'Cause what a segment and what a
segue right to- ⦠the next question.
It's so good.
It's soâ¦
Again, shout out dads.
Shout out ba- Yo.
Yeah.
Shout your dads out.
My goodness.
Shout out Matt.
My dad's name is Matt.
Yeah.
So.
Yep.
Not this Matt.
Yeah, not this one.
No.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
No.
Last name Sanders here.
Um, okay.
So, uh, so Caitlin, l- let's
stick and stay with you, uh,
here in this, this next segment.
Um, what, what did, what do you feel
like, uh, and, and you kind of spoke
to it a little bit, but what do you
feel like that, um, basketball began to
reveal in you, um, and, and, and maybe
even about you while you, um, were at
Calvary that y- that wasn't there before?
Yeah.
Um, I think it revealed that the
game of basketball, like, is so much
bigger than just myself, like me.
Um, because that's all
it was in high school.
Like, it was like, "What
can I do to get this spot?
What can I do to get these minutes,"
um, these points, like these
achievements, and then I didn't get them.
And then, um, I started
to see some traction.
So I was at Calvary for three years.
I started to see some traction my
second year, um, when I actually
got some achievements, and I
was like, "What in the world?"
Like, did not expect this.
Um, worked hard for it, but still, like,
really didn't have expectations at all.
Sure.
Um- Powerful ⦠and then when I
got them it was like, okay, like-
Like, the, it's cool, but it's
like, it really didn't ever matter.
Like, yes- Mm ⦠I want to win,
and I wanted to have success, but
then once you get it, it's like,
okay, like, I get the little plaque.
And I'm like, this is just gonna burn.
Like, it's just gonna ⦠It's
all gonna be gone.
Like, it's gonna be ashes.
Like, I was having a conversation
with someone yesterday about getting
a letter in high school and having
a letterman's jacket, and I was
like, "Yeah, I just gave it away."
And she was like, "What do
you mean you gave it away?
You didn't keep that?"
I was like, "No.
I don't care about it."
Like, it just doesn't matter.
In the grand scheme of
things, it doesn't matter.
And so, like, what it became, began
to reveal in me is, like- Honestly,
the relationships I was able to build.
Like, those things, the things that
are tangible but aren't tangible,
like, you know they're there, and
it's like they'll be there forever.
Like, with Katie, Kim, like, my
teammates that, like, are gonna be in
my wedding, are gonna be coming, and,
like, that are important to me that, you
know, we're able to walk hand-in-hand
together with each other towards the
Lord- Come on ⦠and learn more-
Come on ⦠about the Lord together.
Um, yeah, it just began to reveal me,
like, that genuinely, like, the little
girl that wanted to be good for my dad
was already good enough for my dad.
Like- Come on ⦠I didn't ever
really need to get the achievements
in order to be good enough.
Um, and so, like, that, just looking
back and being able to reflect on that,
and, like, that growth and that mindset.
Like, it's bigger than basketball
because it's leading me into my career.
It's leading me- Come on
into being a wife, to motherhood,
to continuing to be a daughter.
Like, being a part of a
family, friendships, bosses.
Like, yes, the promotion is great,
but you really don't need it in
order to earn what your heavenly
Father has already given you.
Come on.
And so I think- Woo!
Yeah, just being able toâ¦
And that did not come easily.
There was a lot of hard nights.
Yes.
Tears, anger, punching walls.
Like, Coach Matt, I think,
saw me crash out on, like, one
of my first games at Calvary.
Like, I literally punched a brick wall.
Like, I'm not even kidding.
And, like, but it was- Yeah ⦠because I
was so performance driven, like, I- Yeah
⦠why am I not doing this good enough?
I should beâ¦
I should have more points by the half.
Like, why do I not have that many?
And so, um, yeah, it, it was a really
hard transformation, and it's still- Oh
⦠happening, but, um- My goodness ⦠yeah.
Wild.
Okay, Katherine.
So good.
It's so good.
It's hard to follow up.
Yeah.
Gra- I think she just put you on a tee.
Said, "Go to work."
She really, she threw
me the lob, honestly.
Yeah, she really did.
Just kidding.
That's a good word.
Um, so what basketball revealed
to me, I think of two things.
And honestly, I think, well, I don't
th- I don't think of two things.
I really think the Holy Spirit's
speaking to me a little bit.
But, like- Something I've realized,
like, post-college, so like I've s-
we've both been, you know, been out of
college for a year, a year and a half now.
Year and two months.
Yeah, you're getting old, Fast.
Whatever.
Okay.
That's wild coming from you.
I don't even know.
What year is it?
That's wild coming from you.
But anyways.
Yeah, y'all don't wanna know
how old Coach Matt is, 'cause-
Yeah, I only say it all the time.
When we were, when we were in Canada,
this one kid was like, Coach Matt was
like, "How old do you think I am?"
And this kid was like, "107."
Okay.
Like, so serious.
Yeah, Caitlin, you would've loved it.
It was so funny.
You would absolutely loved it.
It was roast Fest.
It was so funny.
Anyways, sorry, that was not even related.
It's a good sidebar.
It's a good sidebar.
Good sidebar.
Um, so something I think that the Holy
Spirit's revealed, um, as I've just
processed my basketball career, like-
When I first got to Calvary, like I said,
like I was wanting a fresh start, and
like I wanted to build like new solid,
you know, um, spiritual friendships.
And that did not happen.
At least- Wow ⦠I, I thought
it happened, and it just turned
out and blew up in my face.
Wow.
Because I, I really do think I idolized
friendships so much my whole life.
I mean, that was my whole thing.
Like, I just wanted to
feel connected to people.
I wanted to feel, you know,
loved by people, and basketball
was what did that for me.
Um, and so my first year at Calvary
I went in like expecting that, and it
just, you know, I thought I had it.
And it, again, like it just, w- literally
my whole life felt like it went up
in flames after my freshman year.
Um, and since then, like I've
real- like been able to reconcile
a lot of friendships and like it's
been really sweet, and, um, I've
seen the Lord work in that way.
But my sophomore year is when
I met Caitlin and, um, and Kim,
um, you know, two of my, like
closest friends to this day.
They were both in my wedding
and like, and um, I thinkâ¦
I just lost my train of thought.
But like basketball brought
me those two relationships,
and Leah too is another one.
She was also in my wedding.
Um, and I think after I was able to
build solid relationships that didn't
necessarily become an idol, I think
the Lord started using basketball
to reveal things in myself that
I- Come on ⦠needed to grow in.
So- Come on ⦠you know, so, so many
things happened through the collegiate
career like, like, like you said.
Like hard nights, literal crash outs.
I think on my senior, our senior
night, I literally kicked a chair
on the sideline because- You did.
You did ⦠I really did,
in front of my parents too.
It was pretty close to me, by the way.
Yeah, it was a little scary, yeah.
Yeah, actually, I was
aiming for your shins.
Um, no.
Um,
I think- You would've gone for my shins,
and Caitlin would've aimed for my face.
Yep.
She's, yep.
She's not lying.
The, the noise, the noise that
would've made on your bald head
too would've been- Oh, yeah.
Chris ⦠the, the whole
gym would've heard it.
Oh, Chris.
Anyways, um, yeah, I think basketball
started to reveal the things inside
of me that I needed healing for.
There's a lot of, I feel,
I had a lot of anger.
I had so much anger built up, and
basketball brought that out of me.
Um, and- Honestly, like by
the time my senior year rolled
around, I was so ready to be done.
I was, I was over basketball.
I was over just everything that had,
I'd experienced, and I was like, man,
I don't wanna be this angry person.
But since, you know, it's been
over now, I really miss it.
I miss it so bad.
Mm.
And, but I'm so thankful for the way that
God used it to reveal the things inside
of me that needed- Come on ⦠refining.
And, you know, like the relationships
that I've been able to have
since then, like, I think, yeah,
Caitlin said it up really well.
I don't know why I'm calling you Caitlin.
It's so weird.
Z.
No, no one calls me that anymore.
It's strange.
Anyways, um, I think what you said is so
powerful, like- Three, three of my four
bridesmaids I met through basketball, and
the same, well, me swapped with you, but
the other two girls, we're all going to
be in your wedding in October, and, like,
that wouldn't have happened without the
game of basketball, and I'm so thankful
for the Lord just using it- Come on
'cause we're all from such different-
Come on, yes ⦠backgrounds
and different experiences.
Yeah.
And, like, when, so when, when Z and
I first met each other, we started
playing basketball, and, like, before
the season started, we went to church,
and then after church we were like,
"Well, let's just go to the coffee shop."
And we sat in the coffee shop for, I
don't know, like, two hours probably.
It was a long time, yeah.
It was a long time, just, like,
pouring our stories out and, like,
weeping together, and like- Come
on ⦠that was when I felt a shift
in like, okay, this is, this is real.
This is an actual genuine
friendship thatâ¦
And it started to build
in other people, too.
And I don't know, it was
just, it's so interesting.
Oh, cool.
There's so many things.
I could keep going on
and on and on about it.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's just- And I think that,
well, and I think, Katie, the, the,
the thing that both of you are, are
shouting from the rooftops is, and I
say this every single week, so coaches
hear this, these two women have been
transformed by the, the person of Jesus
Christ with the game of basketball.
It, and, and as coaches, our job is we're
transformational specialists, that we,
our job is to facilitate transformation.
And no matter the, the pain, uh, f-
uh, the scripture, this scripture that
is rolling in my head today, uh, for
these momentary light afflictions-
Mm-hmm ⦠that pale in comparison
and for the glory to come, right?
And what I see- Mm-hmm ⦠the
glory that's come is just listening
that, uh, the transformation
that happened is also healing.
Because both of you are talking about
things that were broken in you that
got healed, and that are continuing to
get healed, and basketball does that.
And here, here's the way I'll, I'll
wrap that up before we take a, a
little bit of a side break here.
The, the thing that I hear in both
of you is the healing that's come
is that, um, the, the old adage
is is you can count your closest
friends on one hand after college.
And I, that is the case, and
basketball is such a unifier.
Uh, if you guys have listened at all, Dr.
Naismith's goal with this was for the
game to be enjoyed, that peopleâ¦
And it would unify people, that pe-
it would bring people together, and
that they would, they would enjoy
it and then grow in character.
And I mean, you are, your lives are
full, uh, illustrations of that,
beautiful paintings of, you know, um,
from, from, um, beauty for ashes, right?
It just brought you from a place, and
it, uh, really you're just blessing me.
It's incredible to listen
to, to be really honest.
I, I'm just being real.
I, it's, it's, it's really
powerful to listen to.
And I think that scripture is a,
a, a great description of, um,
all of us in these momentaryâ¦
We, we feel like in the moment you
wanna kick the chair or punch coach
in the face or, um, you're not, you're
not scoring enough or your, your
friendships are failing, and you feel
like in the moment that that affliction
is, is gonna end your life, and
there, it, the, the scripture's clear.
It's momentary and it's light.
And what's on the other side is glory.
Mm-hmm.
And He has glorified Himself
in you, and it's powerful.
It really is powerful.
So, okay, let's take a breath here and,
and we'll, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll start
to, uh, get ready to land the plane.
And I just wanna say to all you guys who
watch and listen, um, please continue
to like and subscribe, uh, and share.
And I, I, I keep saying this
and I, I say it over and over.
Um, I, uh, got a wonderful email.
Ladies, you, you'd love to hear this, uh,
encouragement for you about this podcast.
I got a email this week from a varsity
high school girls basketball coach who
said, "Coach, I just wanna say thank you
because everything that you're speaking
to when I cr- ran across your podcast is
everything that I deal with on a daily
basis, and you pointing to the direction
in which the game was designed for by Dr.
Naismith was to win men for the
master Jesus through the gym."
And I just wanna say keep sharing.
Share it.
Uh, subscribe to it.
Like it on all the, we're
on all the platforms.
Um, I just, I just wanna say thank
you for all you guys listening.
Again, Caitlin and Katie,
thank you for coming on.
Hey, friends, before we continue,
I wanna take a break and
share something from my heart.
I'm not making any money off the podcast.
In fact, Redeeming the Game is a part
of my basketball missionary life.
My passion, as you know if you've been
following, is to help coaches and players
discover that their identity is Christ.
It's not in wins or losses
or how they perform.
This ministry is supported entirely
by people who believe in that
mission, who've come alongside me
and choose to partner financially.
So if you would like to continue to help
me create this content, mentor coaches,
and share the gospel of Jesus strife
through the g- Jesus Christ through the
game, you'll find a giving lim- link in
the description and in the show notes.
Thank you for your support
and your encouragement.
Hope this blesses you
Audio Only - All Participants: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Thanks for having us again.
To see, trying to
reconnect Yes, beautiful.
All right.
So, uh, I wanna ask you before we
physically really land the plane, I
wanna ask you a real, um, a real powerful
question that I know is gonna touch you.
So Katie, you talked about
this, and I'm gonnaâ¦
I'm really pushing on it.
So let's shout out right now,
uh, Kimberly, uh, White Thomas.
I- You almost said
Fowler ⦠I almost did it.
I- You almost Yeah.
Yep.
Uh, yeah.
Before longâ¦
Listen, I've been fighting
this with both of you.
I, I'm, I'm not even sure I'm gonna be
able to, um, be able to call you Murr.
Itâ¦
Anyways.
Mm-hmm.
Um, uh, so, uh, Kimberly White Thomas
and, and Leah and, uh, Katie Williams
and Lacey, I could keep going.
Uh, the reason I'm bringing up those
names is I want to know how in both
of your lives, but Katie, you first,
how did those relationships with
your teammates really shape you?
Oh, man.
They, um- I think for one,
they held me accountable.
Um, they held me accountable in ways
to, uh, pursue the Lord, but also
they, they held me accountable to
get in the gym and get shots up.
Go on.
Whether they said it to me or they were
doing it, and so I was like, "Oh, crap.
Like, I gotta keep y- I gotta keep
up with these girls," you know?
Um, so I need to, I need
to work my butt off too.
Um- ⦠but more so I think the way
that I grew and was pushed by them.
You know, the scripture that talks
about ironing, iron sharpening iron,
um, was literally, like, lived out.
And, like, I know we're
talking about how wonderful the
friendships are, and it's great.
It's not, like, pretty either.
Like- ⦠you know, like-
Yeah ⦠we're human beings.
It's not, you know, sunshine and rainbows.
And it's- Relationships are messy,
for sure ⦠relationships are hard,
and they're messy, but they're soâ¦
At the end of the day, like, I don't
think I would be the woman that I am,
I wouldn't be the wife that I am, um,
without having those relationships.
And, um, yeah, so I'm, I don't know.
That's powerful.
Thank you.
That- I could go on about those ladies.
No, that's good.
Yeah.
But.
I, I knew, I knew that that was
a, that wasn't a can of worms,
that was like a 50-gallon drum, I
know, when I pushed on that button.
Uh, I also wanna, I wa- when you said
that about shots up, shout out Ruthie
right now because- Oh, Ruthie Dougherty
Ruthie Dougherty with the shots up.
So shout out Ruthie when you hear this.
I know you will.
Uh, you are, you are
the shots up specialist.
We love you.
All right.
Z?
Oh, I have one word, and
I will say adversity.
Um, it makes you very, like,
it just prepares you for life.
'Cause you're like, you walk
with these people daily.
You see them when you
don't wanna see them.
Like, you have to build relationships
with them whether you want to or not.
Like, and I, I love everyone that we
play w- like, don't get me wrong, but
they're like, it's like being s- sisters.
Like, y- it's, it's hard,
and you have to work at it.
And honestly, I was thinking about
this while Katie was talking.
Like, I don't know how people play,
like, golf or, like, do track.
Like, where you don't really have a team.
Like, it's, like, single sport.
Because, like- I feel like having
teammates pulls you out of your own
head and makes you focus your attention
on someone other than yourself.
Yeah.
And when you're caught thinking so much
about yourself, it's, like, obvious.
Like, you go quiet.
Mm.
You don't communicate.
Your, your attitude changes,
your mood shifts, and we're all
guilty of it, me especially.
But, like, I feel like any time I've
been in my head during a practice
and, like, someone comes and pats my
back or, like, makes me stand up or,
like, lifts my head, like, that is a,
is a thing that helps with resilience
and tenacity and keeps you going.
Like, yes, it's your own mental battle,
but also I think walking alongside
someone- Yeah ⦠um, even when it's
super hard, is something that is a gift.
And I got really used to and, like,
took for granted, and now I'm, like,
out in life by myself, don't get to see
people every day, don't get to just walk
a couple feet and see my best friends.
Like- Yeah ⦠we just have to
call, play phone tag, and it just
is, like, a complete cold turkey.
And- Yeah ⦠that is somethingâ¦
Like, it just becomes very real to you.
Come on.
So I would say, like, if you're a
current player watching this right
now, don't take for granted the
relationships that you have and,
like, the people that are around you.
Um, and really pour into it.
Like, be present.
Like, don't hide in
your room all the time.
Like, my senior year I
was kind of done, too.
Like, I just had so
mu- Like, I just hadâ¦
I was not a lot of energy, and I was
just like, there were so many things
that happened, and very drained.
But- I was thankful for the times
that people came and knocked on
my door and pulled me out of my
room and said, "Let's go-" Come on
to Target, or like,
"Let's go do something."
Like, um, or just- Yeah,
that's good ⦠go for a drive.
Like, so I would say, like, don't take
those things for granted, and like shout
out all the teammates I've ever had
because- Come on ⦠it's really a gift.
Powerful.
And it's not an opportunity that
a lot of people get, um, you know.
Well, and let me speak to coaches here
because coaches, what she, both, both
these ladies have really spoken to in
your, uh, role as, as their mentor, uh,
step-in dad or step-in mom, whichever
case it may be, as the head coach.
Your job is to foster a culture in which
they can grow together through, uh, what
my mom so eloquently called sandpaper.
Mm-hmm.
And that basketball and sports
are like sandpaper, and they just
always, sometimes the sandpaper's
kinda rough and pulls things off that
need to be pulled off and it hurts.
And sometimes it's the fine
sandpaper and things get pulled
away a little bit at a time.
And I, she was so, the, just the
eloquency in that is incredible
because the picture of that is so real.
And for what us coaches need to know
is, if you're gonna help to be a
transformational specialist, the culture
that you must create is one where
they can grow together, and you are
fostering that amongst the, the, uh,
the pain and suffering days, and then
the adulation days, where it's awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Where it's fantastic.
Mm-hmm.
All right.
So- Yeah ⦠let's land,
let's- Can I, can I add
something to that too?
Yeah, go ahead before we land the plane.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Something that's just I've been kind
of pondering a little bit too is
like, um- You know, we're not promised
that life is gonna be easy when we
have, when we're walking with Christ.
Like, but something like when I was,
uh, going to counseling and stuff, um,
something my counselor told me that
I alwa- I've thought about so many
times is, like, we aren't promised joy.
We're, we are promised hardship.
Yeah.
But because of Christ, we
can have joy in the hardship.
Ooh.
And I think that is lived out in such real
time be- in the game of basketball because
of the people that are on your team, and
even if you're, like, if you're a player
and your teammates are really terrible to
you, like, that's, that's a hardship, and
how do you find joy in the hardship- Wow
in that situation?
But for our, our experience with having
great teammates and having teammates that
pushed us, like, I think that was my joy.
Some, like, that was how I found
joy in the Lord, was through p-
those, the teammates, because we
faced so much hardship every single
year I played basketball at Calgary.
Mm.
Wow.
It was, there was always
something difficult that we
walked through as a team.
And, um, you know, that's a whole other
thing that we can unpack, but, like- Sure.
That's good ⦠because God placed
specific people in my life- There was,
there was always some, some way to be
joyful because- Come on ⦠I had people
to walk through with the hardship.
My goodness.
So anyways.
That's powerful.
Uh, so you, you says hardships.
I, I, um, I was thinking
about all of the things.
Some of the hardships are funny, right?
Like, um, my, my, uh, one of myâ¦
I think it was maybe my freshman or
sophomore year, uh, no, my junior year
in college, our bus broke down going
across a bridge in a freezing rain in a
charter bus, and we had to get off the
bus and push the bus across the bridge.
And, like, that, that, that stuff,
like, no one wanted to get out.
It was freezing cold, and yet that
is so etched in my memory with all
of my brothers getting off that
bus, and we'd get behind this bus
and push it across the bridge.
And I'm saying that because what
you said is so, what, what both of
you said is so real, and then we
get caught as we land the plane.
We get caught in this that everybody
feels like, that the, like these rings
that are over my shoulder, you won two
of them, and everybody gets caught up
in the banners, and no one would everâ¦
If we never talked about it,
nobody would ever know that
both of you won a championship.
N- and two of them, to be exact.
Two college championships.
Went to two national tournaments.
No one would ever know that if
we didn't bring that up because
basketball is transformational.
It's, it's so much deeper
on the inside of us.
It does something to us that is, um,
it, it really j- it marks our memory.
It marks our heart.
It was supposed to do that.
I'm getting a little
excited 'cause I love it.
Like, it, it, it fires me up.
So here's the landing the plane
question, Caitlin, coming to you.
I know we talked a little bit about before
we got on, got on the, the call here.
What do you believe God
accomplished in your life that
had nothing to do with basketball?
Because we won the banners.
We did it, right?
You won tons of games.
Broke some records.
But what did God do in you that
had nothing to do with that?
Yeah, I would say two things,
just as we've been having this
conversation, have come to mind.
Um, the first one is, and I
think the most important, um,
he taught me how to know him.
Like, to know him, and
to know him for myself.
Um, when I first came to Calvary,
I, I didn't really know him.
Like, I didn't have my
own relationship with him.
Um, and so my goal was to
know him as fast as I could.
Mm.
Or to find the easiest way.
Like, okay.
'Cause I, the type of person I am, like,
I hate being bad at things, and I wanna
learn how to do them really quickly.
Like, I'm like, "What's the fastest way?"
Like, "What's the most
efficient way to do this?"
Um, and so I just allowed people,
like, from all angles, to tell me
who he is, and to tell me about him.
Mm.
And what that did in me was it kind
of created a complacency of like,
okay, well, I'm just getting fed
all this information, so I don't
really have to search it for myself.
Or, like, get to know him myself,
because I've just been, being
told all these things, and I'm
absorbing it like a sponge.
And I'm, like, not really
allowing the Holy Spirit- ⦠to
kind of weed out the things.
Like, separate the chaff fromâ¦
You know, because- Ooh.
From the wheat from the chaff.
Because, yes.
Come on.
That's a word.
Because I didn't know it.
I wasn't reading His written word.
Like, I, I was, but I, like, was
letting people speak into that,
and not really asking, like, "God,"
like, "what is, what is this?"
Like- Yeah ⦠"What are you saying?"
Doing the research myself.
Like, reading more, exploring more.
Like, praying more
about it, discerning it.
Like, and so it took three years, like,
to really understand and, like, see that,
like- I need to know him for myself.
Um, and that's something honestly,
like, just being outside of the
Calvary environment and, like, Bible
school environment, like, it hit
me really hard when I graduated.
Because I'm like, "I don't have this,
like, cushion or this pillow of people."
Yeah.
It was like I could go anywhere.
Mm.
Go to class, they talk about
God, they talk about the Bible.
Go to practice, we pray, we talk
about scripture, we talk about the
Bible, we learn, we learn lessons.
Mm.
My senior year- Wow ⦠I did
an internship with you and the
other assistant athletic director.
Talked about our walks with the
Lord, talked about scripture.
Like, it justâ¦
Teammates talked about the Lord, talked
about our walks, like, everywhere I went.
Yeah.
Come on.
And then you enter real life, and
it's like, I actually haven't talked
about God once to anyone today.
Like- Mm ⦠because I just, like,
everyone was coming at me with it,
and it was just so, like, fostered.
And so I would say the most
important thing, and, like, the
biggest thing he did to me and for
me, was to learn how to know him.
Come on.
Um, and how to be enamored with him.
Like I said earlier, like, really
just, like, meditating on his word.
Um, and learning how to do that myself,
and learning that just because- Awesome
someone says it to me
doesn't mean that it is true.
Um, and so, uh, that.
And then this isâ¦
I don't want this to get
misconstrued that the goal to, to
go to college or especially Bible
college is to find a husband.
Um, I don't want that
to come across that way.
But the sin in my life before
coming to Calvary was- involving
romantic relationships.
That was like the thing.
Yeah.
And, um, it truly is a miracle
that I'm engaged right now, because
God had to close so many doors.
Like, I made so many bad decisions,
like even while being at Calvary.
Um, and he was just
like, "Nope," slammed it.
"Nope," slammed it.
And I left- Mm ⦠each one being
so discouraged, and like- Mm
so like, "God, will you ever
renew this part of my life?"
Um, so if I'm being completely
honest, like this is completely
out of basketball, but I feel like
he renewed like the ability for me
to even have a godly relationship.
Like- Wow ⦠I, when I was in that
sin before, before Calvary, I literally
every night went to bed thinking, "I will
never have what I really, really desire."
And that is to love God and know
him, marry someone that loves God
and wants to know him and grow with
him, and raise a family to know
him- Mm ⦠and to grow in him.
And, like that was truly
like what my heart desired.
But it was like I just ran from it out
of the fear that I would never have it.
And so really just like letting it go,
letting God just guide me through it,
and surrendering it, and even through,
even kicking and screaming along the way.
Like really- Yeah ⦠just like
listening and- Yeah ⦠yeah.
It's good.
Just letting him lead me.
And so, yeah.
So good.
I would say those are the two
things outside of basketball
that- And as they say in the good
old church pews, won't he do it?
Won't he do it?
Won't he do it?
Yeah.
Won't he do it?
He will.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, Katie.
Oh, man.
Um, you know, I think I also have
two things, and one of them is
my husband, like present day.
And, like, I talked about
earlier, they kind ofâ¦
The two things kinda go
together a little bit.
Like, I talked about earlier how,
um, the majority of my life I've
felt so much of a, maybe not pressure
to perform, but, like, if I don't
do this, I won't have what I want.
You know what I mean?
Like, if I don't act a certain way,
if I don't say certain things, if
I don't know certain things, then
I won't get what I want, you know?
I, I won't- Wow ⦠get the family.
I won't get the, you know- Yeah
⦠like, the godly relationship, and
th- the family that's being raised
to follow Christ and know Christ.
And, um, when I met my husband,
like, his name's also Matt.
And I, um- The trifecta ⦠you know,
he's the literally the trifecta.
Why are weâ¦
There's so many Matts in my life stories.
Hey, it's all by God's design.
Just the way it is.
I love it.
Oh, man.
Um, he was the f- one of the first
people I think I met that I didn't
have to act a certain way- Wow
to feel loved by.
Um, and now, like, I mean,
I can fully be myself.
I can be all of the things.
I can be emotional.
I can be sassy.
I can be excited about little things,
and he gets excited with me, and he gets
sad with me, and he grieves with me.
And, like, I had that.
I'd never seen that before-
Hmm ⦠uh, in a man.
I mean, my dad, I loveâ¦
I've always had a great relationship
with my dad, and, you know,
he's seen parts of me like that.
But someone outside of my family, like,
that was not something I was used to.
And it took me a long time to
be that way, you know, with my
female friendships in a way, too.
Um, but yeah, I think- I've learned
that I don't have to act a certain
way to be loved, and even if that
means I'm not loved by those who I
want to be loved by, if that makes
sense, I'm still loved and cared for
and beloved by our Heavenly Father.
And, like, I don't think that's
something I really realized until
after basketball, or after Calvary.
Sure.
And, um- Sure ⦠you know, we were, me
and Coach Matt were up in Canada a few
weeks ago, and this, like, I was talking
about this in a, what was it called?
Tim Horton's.
And- Tim Horton's.
Like, shout out Tim Horton's
just, it's so good ⦠that coffee, bro.
Woo.
Sign me up for that coffee.
It's so good.
And it's so cheap.
It is.
Anyways, I think that's when I, I,
that's the first time I'd ever admitted
out loud, like, how bad and how, like,
deeply ingrained in my identity I put
Like, relationships and I put this-
Mm-hmm ⦠like, persona of myself on
a pedestal, and I was like realizing
like, man, I don't have to change.
I don't have to be anyone
but who God created me to be
ultimately to be loved by God.
And- Okay ⦠I don't know, I feel
like I'm rambling, but like- No, you-
no, I, no, I think it- Ultimately,
like- Super good ⦠yeah ⦠cer-
no, it's really powerful.
I, you're not rambling.
You're, you, you're absolutely
speaking- ⦠the truth about you.
And that, the, the- Yeah ⦠question,
the question was deep, right?
Like, like Z said before he ever went on,
like, it, that's a, that's a, that's a,
a big old can of, of, of worms to open.
Um, Ephesians 1:4 in the, uh, in the
Good Old-Fashioned New Living Translation
says, "Even before he made the world,
God loved us, chose us in Christ to be
holy and without fault in his eyes."
And I love that for this whole thing,
that what basketball has revealed in you
through, and shout out Calvary, through
what all the things that happened there,
the things that God did in all of us,
that God even before that was, he, he,
he, he was working, um, through Christ
to reveal in us how much he loves us.
You both keep saying it.
I hope everyone hears that.
That, that, that that's what's been
revealed in you, and that you want to
know the heart of Jesus Christ, your
big brother, right, the firstmor- the
firstborn among many, many brethren and
sisters, uh, as it says in the Word,
that you, that you become more like him.
You want to be known by him and
to know him so that you, you
know what the love of God and how
deep and how wide it is, right?
And- Mm-hmm ⦠thank God for
basketball, 'cause we're not here.
Thank God.
And, and, uh, s- again, I
do this about every week.
Shout out my boy Coach Phil,
because he says this all the
time, "Basketball was God's idea."
And I, when he s- said that to
me the first time, it shook my
insides because what happened was
the realization was I love this.
You both, uh, re- we don't have time
for it, but you both could just unpack
how much you really both, you love it.
You, you love how the game is played.
You love the idiosyncrasies
of it, all of it.
And yet we get lost in the scoreboard, and
we get lost in the banners, and we getâ¦
And this thing was God's idea so
that we would come to a place where
we know how loved we are by Him
because He loves it, too, right?
He loves it as much as we do, right?
And for, uh, Ephesian-
Ephesians 1:4 says that.
All right.
I didn't prep you for this one on purpose.
Um, and I am goingâ¦
I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do what I said.
I was gonnaâ¦
I'm gonna give you a chance to
roast me so everybody can laugh.
That's coming, so pick a story.
Start thinking in your mind.
But before you do that, I, I wannaâ¦
If you, if you, if you had five minutes
with a freshman coming to Calvary,
and you could say anything to them.
You got five minutes, but right now
you have- Mm-hmm ⦠15 seconds.
Kaitlin, you have to go first.
What?
Yep, you gotta go first.
Um, Iâ¦
And listen, I'm gonna give you
a chance to think about it.
You know, I'm gonna ramble for a second.
But you, you got a few seconds here,
but I want you to think about if you're
sitting down, and, and let's, let's do
it, let's coin it like this instead.
You're gonna sit down with your
younger self, your freshman.
Your freshman self.
You're sitting across from her in the,
in the Warrior Cafe as it may, as it
be, and you're going to say what to her?
You see that bald man over there?
Avoid him at all costs.
Don't eat Joe's chicken.
No.
Uh-
I mean,
you know what?
I think of a verse.
Okay.
Is that okay?
Yeah, of course.
I think of a verse.
Of course.
And I think this is a
very, like, this is justâ¦
When you're a freshman, you go in,
you're anxious about everything.
You're like, "Am I gonna fit in here?
What do I do here?
What is this, this class?"
I'm, you know, s- how, like especially
if you're playing a sport, like,
you have no idea what you're doing.
Like, you just are, it's
like one day at a time.
Um, I wish I would've told myself, I
think it's Isaiah 26:3, um, "You keep him
in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on
you-" Ooh ⦠"because he trusts in you."
Come on.
Like, that is, if I would've just
meditated on that, like woke up
every day saying that, like, just
think about, just think about Him.
Just think about the Father
and, like, just trust in Him.
Like, He will carry you through all of it.
Um, there's so many things.
Amen.
So many things.
Like, we could be here for probably
till 12:00 AM, me and Katie just talking
about all of the things that went wrong.
Like, so many things.
Yes.
Um, but I think at the end of the day,
like, you, you have to ask yourself,
like, i- do you ha- do you trust in him?
Like, do you trust in him?
And- So good ⦠that doesn't mean
that you don't, you're not scared.
Like, it's okay to be scared,
and it's okay to have questions.
Yep.
That's real.
Yeah.
And it's okay to doubt.
It's o- like, he can handle your doubt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, but it also means you're,
you just, you wake up every
day and you're like, "Okay."
Good.
And you take everything like this, like,
with an open hand, not like- Yes, good
⦠holding onto everything so tightly because
when you do that, you drive yourself
wild, because I did it for many years.
Abso- so good.
It's powerful.
Yeah.
All right, Katie.
Your 15 seconds of fame here.
Um, you know, if you had asked me this
question at graduation, honestly, I would
have told myself to transfer out of Cal.
Wow.
Wow.
Um- Okay ⦠which is crazy because we've,
you know, we've talked about how amazing
it was and, like, the experience with
the people there, but, um- Wow ⦠there
was so much bitterness after I graduated
with things that had gone on in the
basketball world that if you had asked
me that at graduation, I, I would've
told y- I would've told myself to leave.
But now I would tell myself to slow down.
Mm.
And be, like, just soak it
in, and don't allow people to-
speak what they think is truth to
you and take that as 100% truth
Come on Um Powerful Be curious.
Woo, that's good.
Yeah.
That's good.
Okay.
Well, uh, I think that the best part
about this podcast, and I, umâ¦
You guys, I think this is episode 26.
Who knew I would even get to 26?
When I get to six, seven, me
and AJ are gonna do it, okay?
Oh.
Just so everybody can laugh.
Absolutely not.
Do you like that?
Um- Don't do that ⦠I'm gonna give
you a second to roast if you wanna
roast, but what I wanna say before you
do that is that it's beautiful to, for
everybody to hear that this podcast
brings people, um, from completely
different backgrounds in different
parts of the world, especially here in
the US, who have such, uh, um, a vastly
different story, and yet God is at the
center of it and who redeemed all of it.
And so, uh, I want to say in
front of everybody who's gonna
listen, is say thank you.
Thank you for making time to do this.
Thank you for your honesty.
Thank you for your, your candor.
Um, thank you for the shots you're
about to take and you've already taken.
So, uh, without further ado, before
I shut this thing down and just end
this call, uh, end, end this podcast,
uh, what shots do you wanna take?
Make people laugh
You can't just laugh.
They're not just gonna
laugh There's too many.
There's too many Bro, how do I pick?
I have, like, a roster full of, like
I'm not gonna give you long I'm
trying to think I, like, Katie.
Katie,
do you remember?
Okay, one thing that y'all need to
know about Coach Matt Sanders is that
he is a God-awful driver of a bus.
Oh.
Yeah.
Literally our senior year, so Z
and I were the only people on the
basketball team who could drive the
van because we were the only two that
were old enough to drive the van.
And let's just say any time that this
man got behind the wheel, everyone
was about to puke in their seats-
What does that mean right now?
begging to pull the van over.
But if we were driving, you
know, we were home in record
time and no one got sick, so.
What?
Just saying.
He's not good.
To be honest, you- if you want me to
roast you, like, for, like, this isâ¦
And I hope you laugh because the, I
mean this in the nicest way possible.
Some of the craziest
lineup choices of all time.
Like, I feel like you pick the combination
of people to be on the floor together that
should never be on the floor together.
Oh my God.
But it's just because you, like,
you're just you, and you want
everyone to, like, have a good time
and I, I guess, or I don't know.
But, you know, in the nicest
way possible I mean that.
Or, or, or at that point in
time I was coaching two teams.
I was the athletic director and I might
have been out of my mind just a hair.
Yeah.
Maybe, yeah.
Maybe.
That is true.
But you're not the only person to
ever say that to me, so I take it- Oh,
yeah ⦠I take- I have another story.
Is this okay?
It's gonna be- You better go quick
like, a couple seconds.
Yeah, you better go quick.
There was a game we played and we,
there was this, there was a team
in our conference that beat us
every game and I was like, "Okay,
I'm playing my butt off tonight.
Like, I don't care.
I'm giving everything.
This is my s- this is my senior year."
Obviously, he was the coach.
And I think I played
probably 38 minutes so far.
Unbelievable.
He puts me back in the last,
like, 30 seconds of the game,
and I'm, like, I'm gassed.
Like, I promise you, I probably had
the most defensive deflections of
all time, like, of, like, my career.
And he, like, yells atâ¦
Like, he puts me in and pulls me
out, like, uh, five seconds later
and he's like, "If you're just gonna
walk, like, you don't need to play."
I was like, "Bro, can I,
like, get a, can I recover?"
It, like, the ball was, like,
dead out of bounds, and I, like,
needed to, like, get to the other
side of the court or something
and I, like, jogged or something.
And he was like, "You don't need
to play if you're gonna walk."
I was like- Dude ⦠"This
dude just hates me."
Oh.
He's just, he's just sassy, bro.
Just r- ripping rookies.
Literally, I will, I will straight up
tell people that me and Coach Matt,
my senior year, all we, all we really
did, if I could sum it up, is we just
cussed each other out, like, the whole-
Get out of here ⦠the whole year.
People are gonna think
I'm the worst person ever.
The whole year, bro.
And people think I'm,
people think I'm joking.
Oh.
I'm just kidding.
Oh.
Well, um, thank you for the roast, and I
hope everyone got a good laugh out of it.
And, uh, everyâ¦
I will, I will, uh, plead the fifth
on all of it, and I'm gonna- Mm.
If you ask me if it happened,
I, I may say yes or no.
I don't know.
Um, all I know is that both of you
are sitting here, and we didn't die.
That's all I have to say about driving.
Um, uh, I love you both.
Thank you so much for
being on the podcast.
Uh, and coaches, as we say every
single week, uh, I, I need you to
download The 10 Things That I Knewâ¦
I Wish I Knew as a Young Head Coach.
It will be free.
Uh, a free PDF in the, in the show notes.
And, um, Iâ¦
This podcast is designed to bring people
together to talk about the goodness
of God and how He created this game.
That basketball was God's idea,
and we are, we are totally out to
share with the whole world how God
loves this game as much as we do.
And, uh, we are, we are literally
after, we're just after to redeem it.
And so, uh, ladies- Mm ⦠thank
you so much for joining.
Um, well, we say this every week.
We are, uh, redeeming this
game one player, one family,
and one coach at a time.
I hope this blesses you.
See you next time.