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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.567)
Welcome to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Now, before I hand over to the wonderful Kate Chastey, I just want to say a huge, huge thank you for agreeing to do this, Kate. It means a lot. I really appreciate it. But that's it. That's all I'm going to say. So without further ado, I'm going to just take a breath and relax because I'm about to be on the other side of this.
Kate Chastey (00:21.528)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (00:29.717)
and hand over to you, Kate.
Kate Chastey (00:29.934)
You
Well, what a privilege. Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. So before we dive in, I just want to say this is such an exciting moment for me because it's full circle, totally full circle. So for everybody listening, Melissa isn't just a coach or a podcast host to me. She's played a pivotal role in one of the most profound decisions of my life quite recently. And throughout my work with her last year, I began to realize that the version of the future I was
Holding So Dear, which was running a franchise that I'd spent 15 years of my life in, no longer fit. I no longer wanted to do that. I no longer felt I could do that. And my work with Melissa really was just extraordinary because not only did she hold space with both boldness and compassion, she helped me see what needed to change, but not just what needed to change. She helped me find the courage to actually get on and do it.
So she helped me navigate a transition that was marked with grief and gratitude and huge personal growth. And for that I will always be eternally grateful. So it's an honor to be sat here on the other side of the mic with such power, with such power now. I love it. But yeah, I hope to create a wonderful podcast for your listeners and help them learn a little bit more about you and the human that is behind the Courageous Coach podcast.
So let's dive in. Let's dive in. Where should we start? Firstly, I think I'd like to know more about the key moments and the decisions that have shaped your career. What do you feel have been the pivotal moments that have led you to where you are right now?
Melissa Hague (02:20.899)
Okay, let's start small then, shall we? Let's go big with our first question. Yeah, I feel like I to move a little bit. I'm just gonna sit back in my seat. Okay. Yeah. So, well, look, okay, first of all, thank you for that lovely intro. And Kate is one of the reasons why I do the work I do, right? And I walked alongside her. She did all the hard work. Let's be clear about that too.
Kate Chastey (02:23.086)
Yeah! Absolutely!
Kate Chastey (02:31.438)
Shall I get you that gin?
Kate Chastey (02:40.526)
So.
Melissa Hague (02:50.389)
Okay, so kind of key moments in my career that have kind of got me to this point. Well, I think the first key moment was when I realized how much I enjoyed helping other people learn, because my whole of my career has been about learning and development and supporting other people to learn. And I was very lucky early on in my career that I was able to shape a role that I was in, which wasn't really what I wanted to do.
what I wanted to do. was lucky, you know, the opportunity came up to do a bit of training and I was like, oh, I think I'd quite like that and had a go and loved it. I just, think really early on, I realized that the thing that got me excited was seeing other people learn, have light bulb moments, know, realize their potential. And the way that people light up when they learn something is just
Kate Chastey (03:20.366)
Okay.
Kate Chastey (03:40.93)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (03:47.325)
joy. So I think if I hadn't discovered that as early as I had, I'd probably have experimented and done lots of different things before finding it, but luckily I found it early on. And I think in terms of pivotal moments, I mean the other one has to be moving from employed to self-employed. I mean
That was pivotal in so many ways. think most people would say who've moved from employed life into some kind of self-employment would say that's a pretty pivotal moment, right? But I think for me, it was also wrapped up in lots of my early childhood experiences. Both of my parents were employed. My extended family were all employed. And the job that you do or the career that you have was very much about moving through that kind of very
Kate Chastey (04:20.462)
Okay, mate.
Melissa Hague (04:41.155)
corporate world or organisational world and climbing the career ladder and being promoted and earning more money and that being a measure of success, I guess. That was what success looked like for me throughout my childhood and probably way, way into my kind of early thirties. When I met my now husband, who is self-employed and has had his own business for 25 years and he...
bottom line, he gave me the confidence that it was possible that this one was possible, right. And so the decision to explore this idea of self employment was definitely pivotal for me. And not least because I was leaving a job or not just a job, I was leaving an organization that I loved. loved the you know, I loved the people I loved what the organization stood for. And it felt
there was a loss in that for me so it wasn't that I, I don't know, I was made redundant or I hated my job or you know anything like that, it was just simply that I had a sense that there was more for me and also that there was an opportunity for me to do more of the work that I love and less of the work that I don't and to have some kind of freedom or control over that which you you don't get with employment right.
And then I guess we can't talk about my career in terms of pivotal moments without talking about training with Brene Brown.
Kate Chastey (06:15.726)
my hero. I'm such a girl fan.
Melissa Hague (06:18.307)
A total girl crush, right? And I think it was pivotal for me because unbeknownst to me at that moment, it came at exactly the right time. At that point in my career in learning and development, I was focused on leadership, leadership development. And I still do a lot of work in the leadership development space. And I'd read
Dare to Lead. That was actually the first Brene book that I read and then went back and you know, okay, there's, yeah, I got let's go and read more. And then you know, watch the TED talk that I don't know how many views it's out now, but however many millions of people have watched her, you know, her original TED talk on the power of vulnerability. And
Kate Chastey (06:51.214)
Me too! I think I may have read them in the wrong order.
Melissa Hague (07:09.763)
It wasn't just about her message, which was actually at that time quite a new message in the leadership space, really. But it was more than that. I was completely drawn to her ability to role model the thing that she was talking about in the way that she presented and talked and wrote. She completely and still does kind of lives and breathes this work through the way she shows up. And that's
kind of blew me away because I was like, okay, that's interesting. I want to be like that. And it was that you said girl crush, right? I was a little bit like, I want to be like Brene when I grow up. know, that kind feeling. And so then the opportunity in 2019, when the opportunity came up to go and train in America, in Texas, to become a Dare to Lead facilitator.
Kate Chastey (07:46.604)
Yeah.
I may have said that myself as well. Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Hague (08:06.243)
I was in the leadership development space at that time. I was part-time employed and part-time playing and I was playing with my own business. So off I trotted. It was a huge financial investment. I had no idea if there was going to be any return on that financial investment, but I knew that I had to do it. was one of those things that you just know. Yeah, totally.
Kate Chastey (08:18.114)
Okay.
Kate Chastey (08:33.058)
Just a calling.
Melissa Hague (08:35.455)
And without doubt that transformed what my business looks like today. It's taken me down a really interesting, challenging, inspiring path, which I'm sure we'll talk about, those are probably the really pivotal moments for me.
Kate Chastey (08:56.738)
Yeah, lovely. I think it's so interesting, you know, to be brave enough to go to Texas for a start, but be brave enough to go and train with Renee in Texas is just incredible to me. Were there parts of that that surprised you, you know, how you responded to that training at all, or was it all just so new that it was all a surprise?
Melissa Hague (09:22.209)
No, I think that there were surprises, because it was one of those things that I almost blindly booked. know, sometimes we do that, that training course looks amazing. And we hit the book button and then think, well, maybe I'll check out what the content is. know, sometimes it's too, the decision was a little bit too quick, maybe. But I think there were lots of things that surprised me.
Kate Chastey (09:32.238)
Mm.
Kate Chastey (09:39.708)
gosh!
Melissa Hague (09:50.965)
The fact that she is exactly the same in person as you would expect her to be having read her books and what they're on, TED talk or YouTube or whatever. That's impressive in today's world, I think, you know, often what you see is not what you get in social media or all of those kinds of things. So that was really impressive. Something about being really grounded in the work and role modeling the work.
Kate Chastey (10:07.79)
later.
Melissa Hague (10:19.895)
one of the really important things about Dare to Lead and courage building, courage, vulnerability, is that you can't just tell people to do it. You've got to role model it. You've got to show them what it looks like and genuinely and in a real way, right, not pretending. And she did that from the first moment that she kind of stood up in front of the group. And that sort of took my breath away a little bit.
as a a facilitator at that point, I wasn't sat in that room really as a coach, I was sat in that room as a facilitator. I was like, this is this is really impressive. she I was in a group of 100. I think there are about 100 of us in the room. I mean, I deliver learning to groups of I don't know. I mean, I like small groups, but probably, you know, 2025 people is probably about my maximum. There were 100 of us and I thought
Kate Chastey (10:54.051)
Okay.
Melissa Hague (11:18.275)
I'm not sure I'm quite comfortable. I don't know how I'm not comfortable and I don't know how she's gonna do this. I Felt like I mean my table my little table group. I felt like we were the only table in the room Impressive as a facilitator And with the people that you're working with and And I think the other thing that surprised me as well because again at that time it wasn't really something that I
Kate Chastey (11:32.384)
That is a skill and a half, yes, 100%.
Melissa Hague (11:46.699)
I've done a lot of thinking about for myself is how good she was at setting boundaries in terms of facilitating the learning and how well she held them because setting them is okay, you know, holding them is a whole other thing. So, you know, things like, we didn't see her at breaks and lunch and evenings or whatever, right? Because she's actually...
something of an introvert. So she needs a downtime, right. And you can imagine there are people in that room, not just me, you've got a girl crush, or be either. So you can imagine that that could be really full on for in for her in that situation. So she protected her space. Without without explaining without without kind of making excuses or justifying she set the boundary and she held it. She hates watching herself on video.
Kate Chastey (12:32.396)
Wow.
Melissa Hague (12:43.371)
So whenever we played a video of some of the content with her in it, she left the room. Don't want to watch it. Right? Cool.
Kate Chastey (12:48.803)
Wow.
You think after all this time she'd be okay with it, right? Yes, you must have seen a lot of it. But yeah, interesting.
Melissa Hague (12:55.299)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was a really, it was a really interesting experience as a facilitator and seeing how she facilitated the work. But I think what surprised me probably the most was that I went to the training thinking, I'm here to learn how to facilitate, you know, the Dare to Lead curriculum. Excellent. And then came away thinking, okay, this is, there's learning in this for me as a human being.
there's learning in this for me as a leader, there's learning in this for me as a coach. And that was really the first moment, I guess, where I realized that I needed to do the work myself before or as well as doing it with other people. Yeah, that was probably the biggest surprise.
Kate Chastey (13:38.082)
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow, wow, such an opportunity to work with her. So compared to before you went and did that training, before you were self-employed, what are the biggest differences in you as a human between now and then having done the training with her, but also been on your own journey of becoming a courageous coach? What would, I don't know, what would you say to yourself, you know, six years ago, what were your biggest challenges back then to now?
Melissa Hague (14:07.741)
well, I think if I yeah, if I was to go back, yeah, six years is probably about right, actually, because I think in terms of being in or having my own business for me coming up for five years, so if so maybe a little bit longer than maybe six or seven years, something like that. If I went back, I'd say you don't know yourself nearly well enough. You think you do, but you don't. And that's important work, get on with it.
Kate Chastey (14:36.398)
Get on with it. think most people shy away from that their entire lives. Family will never get round to it.
Melissa Hague (14:40.557)
Well, maybe right. Yeah, I think I just said, you know what, the time is short, get on with it. Because for me now, there is there are downsides, but there's enormous freedom in knowing myself now in a way that I didn't then. And so yeah, just yeah, stop hanging around. And maybe actually, there'd be something as well for me, particularly in kind of a work context of
actually, you know, this isn't about them and what whoever them are, right? This isn't about them and you know, their shortcomings and the things they've got wrong or, you know, the things they're not good at. This is about you because you've got to your part in this as well. And I think I probably spent far too much time looking outwards and going, this person, you know, it's their fault, or they're not, they're not doing what they said they do, or they're not
performing in the way I expect them to. I just, you know, come on now, sort yourselves out. It was actually, it was also about, what's your part in that? Because you have a part, you need to own it, right? But yeah, get on with it. Get on the journey. That's what I'd say.
Kate Chastey (15:51.694)
Thank
Kate Chastey (15:58.382)
I think you may have said that to me last year as well. Get on the journey Kate, it can't be that hard. my God. Yes it can, yes it can. So, I mean, I alluded to it in the introduction that, you know, last year was one of my huge arena moments of deciding that I was no longer going to be a franchisor. So tell me about your arena moments, Melissa, as Brene would refer to them, what have been the pivotal moments for you that...
you just went into it feeling breathless and came out feeling brave at those kinds of moments that really did just shape you as a human.
Melissa Hague (16:34.787)
Yeah, I think it's such an interesting question, because I noticed immediately that my my mind goes to the big stuff. And this is something I talk about a lot, right? That arena moments aren't just the big stuff. Arena moments happen all day, every day, right? We're talking about ordinary everyday courage. But even though I know that my brain immediately, what? Yeah, what's my big arena moment ever? And, you know, there have been some for sure. And,
Kate Chastey (16:56.536)
The big stuff. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (17:05.025)
I mean, without doubt in recent years, my biggest arena moment, and there's of lots of memory wrapped up in this as well, this sort of emerged together, doesn't it, over time, I guess. But my biggest arena moment was when I finally said to my boss, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to do something different. And, you know, I think it's time to move on and have my noticing. And even now, there's butterflies in my stomach.
I get a little bit hot under my hairline. Because I had, as I say, I had a fabulous boss, great relationship. He made me better. He made me want to be better in my role, And it just felt like desertion and just all this stuff wrapped up in that. And clearly it went a lot better than I imagined it would do.
like we do at work, right, the meeting was planned like, I don't know, a week or two weeks in advance. So I spent the whole whole of that time, you know, winding myself up and making it worse and all of those kind of things. And, also at that point, I didn't really know, well, of course, I didn't know everything I know now. So I wasn't very kind to myself, all of that kind of stuff. And so that's probably a big one. Big arena moment, lots of critics, lots of noise, lots of shame, lots of
Kate Chastey (18:09.038)
Kate Chastey (18:21.454)
Absolutely.
Melissa Hague (18:32.737)
I'm not good enough, all that kind of stuff.
Kate Chastey (18:36.46)
A lot of pressure from your, you you mentioned earlier that all of the people in your world except your husband had been employed. So a lot of pressure for, my goodness, am I just breaking the mould right here now? So, yeah, very difficult.
Melissa Hague (18:47.662)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so because wrapped up in that arena moment is, you know, also the, you know, the many conversations I had with my parents about what I've got planned, where they tried to bless them. They really tried, as they've always have done in my life, I'm very, very grateful. They tried really hard to be supportive, but they were scared. They frankly, they were scared for me, right? And what it might mean and how would, what if I didn't make any money and...
Kate Chastey (18:57.474)
Yeah.
Kate Chastey (19:08.344)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (19:13.771)
about the security and what about the stress of it and you know they so so it was was hard for them really to be as supportive as they wanted to be and and to be fair even though my husband was self-employed or is self-employed his business was flying it had been going for nearly 20 years by that point right i'm talking about starting something small
Kate Chastey (19:36.622)
And you didn't really know what it was even back then.
Melissa Hague (19:40.843)
lots wrapped up in that for sure many, many arena moments around that stepping into my courage, right? There's very rarely one arena moment when we step into our courage, there are often many. And then really, it's all the small stuff too. Like I always say, when I'm kind of talking about courageous coaching that every time I work with a new client is an arena moment, right? Every time I step into a
chemistry call or a contracting session or, you know, or a first session with someone, you know, when you and I sat down to go through the Dirt Elite content, right, to go through that learning together, that's an arena moment, because I'm like, and also, wonder what if this isn't right for her. And actually, there's something really interesting, actually, in your story, or in our story together is that, you know, what became clear, I think, probably even in that first session,
Kate Chastey (20:23.788)
What if she doesn't like it?
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (20:38.273)
was that this was way more than just take me through the Dare to Lead content, because I love Brene, right? You were at a transition point and it was, there was a lot in that need to transition. Like you said, know, there was a lot of personal stuff in there as well as the professional stuff. And for me, there's an arena moment because in that moment, I thought, well, crikey, I thought I was just going to do Dare to Lead with you.
Kate Chastey (21:02.062)
So I let you into a secret, Melissa. Just this morning when I was thinking about this podcast, I thought to myself, gosh, I remember driving home that day going, I really don't want to do this. I might have to ring her and just tell her I don't want to do it anymore. Like, because it just felt so hard. And that's the thing about arena moments. They just feel so hard. But on the other side of it is so much reward. It's all good. It's all good. So yeah.
Melissa Hague (21:21.667)
That works.
Melissa Hague (21:26.403)
We can pretend they're easy, but they're not. They never are.
Kate Chastey (21:29.94)
gosh, no, there was nothing easy about last year for me. Absolutely nothing. But, you know, the flip side of that is, you know, they they absolutely are transformational. I hate that word, but it is the only word I've got to describe the difference between this time last year and now. OK, so tell me a little bit about the clients that that you work with and the the shifts that you see in them and the shifts that you witness and
And
Melissa Hague (22:18.731)
Yeah, it's such it's so interesting because I think that I know for me as a coach and I know this to be true for many coaches as well is that we spend a lot of our time hoping for searching for the aha moment the light bulb, you know, where the client goes, I have it. I've sold it. You know, this is transformation. This is amazing. Searching for that light bulb moment. And,
Kate Chastey (22:36.514)
and
Melissa Hague (22:48.159)
In doing that, we lose sight of the simplicity of actually sometimes they aren't big shining flashing lights, know, hey, sometimes they're light bulb moments, little aha moments. And, and the thing that I've had to let go of is that what I find most often with my with whether I'm coaching leaders or whether I'm working with coaches is that
Kate Chastey (22:56.488)
Thank
Melissa Hague (23:13.563)
most of the light bulb moments, most of the aha moments don't happen in the sessions. They happen between the sessions when I'm not there to see them. Yeah, because they happen because the client goes away, reflects, thinks more stuff happens to them, they try whatever. And it's in those moments that they get the light bulb moment, or the aha, and it still might be small and quiet, but that's when they happen. So I had to really let go of the
Kate Chastey (23:18.262)
No, no.
How rude!
Kate Chastey (23:39.278)
but it's still, yeah, they still happening.
Melissa Hague (23:43.239)
there wasn't an aha moment in that session. I failed, or I wasn't very good in that session. I wasn't a good enough coach because the client didn't have a light bulb moment. Well, first of all, it's not actually my responsibility. That's the client, right, because they're doing the thinking. And so in our if we took again, if we took our dare to lead program, which yes, was facilitated, but it was also some coaching in it as well, is that your transformation happened.
after you completed the program, you went off and did all of the hard work. And occasionally I got a little email, you know, exactly. And, know, we spoke and that was fine, but the transformation didn't happen in our space together. It happened outside of it. So I think for me, and you know what, it still catches me sometimes where I come out of a session or
Kate Chastey (24:20.078)
Melissa, this may be an issue.
Kate Chastey (24:30.211)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (24:39.591)
workshop or whatever and I think I didn't go very well and I think why didn't it go very well? Can't help ask myself what makes you say that Melissa? It didn't go very well. Well because they didn't really seem to move on they didn't really seem to get to where they wanted to get to there but there wasn't that light bulb moment. right okay I need to let that go right I need to
Kate Chastey (24:57.55)
But that's wonderful. It's so wonderful that you can unpack that for yourself. And I think there's a lot of people in business. mean, that's, my, my world is business rather than coaching. But it's really interesting that, know, you see that as a coach, you can coach yourself and say, actually, that's not what we need to do here. So what else would you say, you know, to people in your industry, other coaches, what, what do they
What do you wish they all knew much earlier on in their coaching careers to help them be more successful, enjoy it more, to actually have more fun, be more courageous?
Melissa Hague (25:38.517)
It's such a hard question to answer because I think that everyone goes through their own development journey at their own pace and therefore there's always a risk when I feel like a risk when I answer that question that there's a suggestion that if you do this you'll get that and I don't actually know.
Kate Chastey (26:01.518)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (26:03.359)
you might do it and you might not get that right because everyone listening to this every coach is on their own development journey at their own pace. But I think for me, the thing that I wish I'd known when I first qualified as a coach like in 2013, I did an ILM qualification as an internal coach and you know, and you learn as we all do when we first start we learn the models and the techniques and the tools and
how to contract and how to build rapport and all of that really important stuff. And it is important. But the challenge is, that whilst this might not necessarily be what we're taught at coach training school, what we learn is to hold really tightly to that stuff. That's our skill. That's what makes us a good coach and we hold tightly. And I wish I'd known that I could loosen my grip a little bit.
Kate Chastey (26:49.699)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (27:00.259)
So there's something for me about trust, trusting myself earlier than I did. And, and I guess that may have, I don't know, but that may have led more quickly maybe to that ease or flow that you sometimes experience in coaching the more that you just trust that it's be okay, right? And if you don't know the answer, that's okay, you're not meant to know. If you don't know what question's next.
Kate Chastey (27:05.944)
Mm-hmm.
Kate Chastey (27:21.358)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (27:28.065)
that's okay. If you've forgotten where you are in the grow model, or if you've completely deviated from that whatever model is you're using, that's okay. You can loosen your grip a little bit. I think I'd have relaxed earlier. And I think in that relaxation, I'd have been able to breathe more easily. And that would have created more flow and ease in the work that I did.
Kate Chastey (27:41.613)
Yeah.
Kate Chastey (27:49.705)
Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Hague (27:52.675)
And I think that the other thing I'd say as well is that the turning point for me, which probably came. Yeah, I would say it came with with kind of doing the work with Brené. So that was 2019. So I qualified in 2013, practicing as an internal coach. So from 2013 to 2019. Yeah, I was pretty much just coaching internally.
And then stepping out and doing external coaching in my own business later on. And what I realized or what Brene's work gave me was the realization that I needed to do my own work. I needed to know myself better. I needed to work out what my defense mechanisms were, what my armor was. I needed to work out how I was getting in my own way as a coach. And I also needed to work out how old stories and patterns were playing out.
Kate Chastey (28:31.054)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (28:47.989)
in my work and in my business and that weren't helpful anymore. So hey, I could choose a different story or a different pattern. That was revelatory as well, right? The ends are here so you can choose. So what's your choice? Yeah, so maybe I wish I'd known that earlier, but for me, I think I don't think I was ready for it earlier. I think Brene opened or the work with Brene opened the door for me.
Kate Chastey (28:58.158)
Okay.
Kate Chastey (29:03.086)
Stay powerful.
Melissa Hague (29:16.683)
on a door that wasn't locked, but it was closed. she kind of opened the door, she, the work that I did with her opened the door for that to happen, I think.
Kate Chastey (29:24.35)
work that you did, think. I think that's the thing about Brené and being a coaching client is that, like you said, actually the work happens afterwards, doesn't it? You did do the work yourself afterwards. what kind of, obviously we know that you work with coaches, we all know that, but what kind of work do you love doing now? Is it the coaching side of the business or do you still love doing the leadership coaching as well?
Melissa Hague (29:49.187)
So yeah, I love both. I can't have a favourite child, right? I really love both. But I think for me, they serve different purposes in my life, if you like. my work with leaders, my actually interesting, my leadership coaching work is evolving where I'm becoming much more
Kate Chastey (29:52.306)
Still love both, still love both. Oh really I can?
you
Melissa Hague (30:17.089)
well, much clearer and also much more selective about who my leadership clients are. Not just you're a leader and you'll do, you know, which, you know, as many of us kind of start, but, but no, I'm much more selective now about the kind, the kind of leader, the kind of humans that I want to work with. And I also have a story, a belief, and no, it's not a story. It's a belief that in order to work with other coaches, effectively, I need to be coaching myself.
Kate Chastey (30:46.766)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (30:46.903)
I need to be in it because otherwise I'm just stood on the periphery of their world and that's not helpful. So the leadership coaching work is important in that sense as well. And, so in comparison, the other child, the work with coaches gives me something quite different. And I think that that is that what I realized
Kate Chastey (31:03.574)
Hehehehehe
Melissa Hague (31:15.469)
fairly early on is coaches are my people. They're my tribe. And so I feel at home with them. And home is one of my values. And I don't mean bricks and mortar, right, but I feel at home with coaches. So it fulfills part of my purpose and my values to really lean into that sense of being at home. And I just think coaches are on
Kate Chastey (31:26.786)
I remember.
Melissa Hague (31:44.831)
there by the time I'm working with them so I well I work with new brand new coaches I deliver ILM program so I'm with them right to the beginning and yes I'm teaching them grow and listening skills and questions and all of that
Kate Chastey (31:51.49)
Okay.
Kate Chastey (31:57.464)
cannot imagine this, isn't the inner you going, my God, my God, let's get to the big stuff. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (32:02.241)
Well, because I know that they can't get to the big stuff if they don't have those basic skills right. So that's really important. And then I kind of meet back with coaches slightly further down the line when they've realized that actually, tools and techniques alone aren't enough. And they know that knowing themselves, what gets in their way, their self awareness is important, but they don't quite know how to do the work yet.
Is it therapy? Is it another qualification? Is it more tools? Is it specializing in something? What is it? And that's the point where I meet them, I guess. So it's the work that brings me the most joy for sure. And yeah, because on the whole, I love Yeah, I love coaches. I mean, maybe there's some exceptions. I don't know. I haven't met an exception yet.
Kate Chastey (32:59.182)
Maybe they're just not attracted to you, Melissa, so they don't even up at your doorstep. They've definitely turned up at mine in the past.
Melissa Hague (33:02.307)
Well, that's very good point. It's a very good point. You're right, because I think, you know, the kind of coaches that I attract are the kind of coaches that I believe are in my tribe, right. So it's a good point, right, that what we put out there is what we attract for sure. But I think that it's that is that love, I tend to meet coaches at a lovely moment in their wherever they are in their coach development journey, but they're on the edge of something.
Kate Chastey (33:14.956)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (33:31.937)
They know there's something more, but they don't know what it is yet. I mean, what a wonderful gift to be able to work with people to work out what that is.
Kate Chastey (33:38.538)
Absolutely, absolutely. I'd second that like at the at the coach gatherings that I'm so proud to have been part of with you. They all of the all of them, even if we were in the second year, and they were coming back again, all of them were on the edge of something. And there's that sense of what's next, there's almost that deep breath before they go and dive in again. And that's, that's a beautiful place to meet anybody really, isn't it? That's really, that's really special. Yeah. So what's next for your
Melissa Hague (34:01.87)
Have a great day.
Kate Chastey (34:06.958)
non-favourite child but the ones that bring you the most joy. How are you hoping to work with them in the future? Is it one-to-one sessions that you will be doing with them or is there something changing for that?
Melissa Hague (34:21.613)
So the courageous coach is, I'm gonna say evolving. It started as an idea around, I really wanna work with coaches to help them to be more courageous in their work, in their work with clients, in their businesses, in their lives.
And it started with the Dare to Lead curriculum, which you're really familiar with and kind of offering that to coaches. But what it what became really clear to me was that there was more needed than just that curriculum, right? There were other bits of that that I needed to pull on more in order to develop courage as a coach. So kind of like I need to do I need there needs to be a courageous coach thing, right? This needs to be a thing.
Kate Chastey (35:14.222)
A thing. Just a thing. You might need a marketing slogan for that, That's probably not going to cut it. There's a thing.
Melissa Hague (35:16.323)
I'm not kidding, there needs to be a thing. That's that was where my... Yeah, absolutely. And so for me, you know, the podcast was about definitely about that, about talking about this stuff and getting voice my voice out there, but also other coaches voices out there. And then really from that running into well, the Courageous Coach Program, not Dare to Lead, not
just Brené, as fabulous as she is and as awesome as her work is, there's more to courageous coaching than just the Brené Brown work. So was like, okay, how do I bring all this together and offer this in a way that is accessible to coaches, both in terms of the way it's delivered and in terms of cost and all of those important things, because it's not easy being a coach right now, it's tough.
And also something about the business side of things as well, because there's an awful lot of courage required to run, grow, scale up, whatever business. And so the kind of the Courageous Coach program became the thing. So we've gone from the thing, whatever the thing was to actually know this is a program. And I think actually what I I've realized as part of going through that process and, you know, launching the program we launched in November.
Kate Chastey (36:17.642)
Absolutely.
Kate Chastey (36:27.35)
Hehehehehe
Melissa Hague (36:39.999)
is that there's actually a next step on to the thing for me, which is actually what I, and this kind of links to the tribe thing I was talking about before. And you'll know this from Kate helps me with the courageous coach gathering, which I run once a year and, you know, face to face, get people together. And so for me, actually what I'm looking for is community. So I want to be able to create a courageous coach community.
Kate Chastey (37:01.454)
Mmm.
Kate Chastey (37:08.195)
Wow.
Melissa Hague (37:08.983)
you know, for people who are on this journey, because what I do know from coming from a learning and development background is you can't just do a program, you know, a few workshops ticking the box, hooray, I'm more courageous. No, this does not work like that. This is a lifelong continuing development. So that's the bit that I really want to support. So building a community of like minded, courageous coaches, who can continue that development, support each other, learn from each other.
That's where I'm going. And so the podcast and the program are a way of really the end goal for me is to build that community that starts with me. Yes. Hopefully at some point becomes not about me, it's, you know, in the community and, and it's sort of, you they, they, they, they build it, they create it because that's my tribe. That's where I want to hang out. And I kind of hope that
Kate Chastey (37:38.989)
in
Kate Chastey (37:45.454)
Amazing.
Kate Chastey (37:51.982)
Yeah.
Kate Chastey (38:03.086)
Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say what a powerful place to be like, the people in that will get so much from each other having been on the on the gatherings in my support function. And I what they get from each other in that community is is just breathtaking. It's really special to say, isn't it? So yeah, absolutely. Nice. Nice. Okay. So long term then tricky question trickier question than all the others. Long term, Melissa.
are doing with the rest of your life? Are you going to be a coach forever? What's the end goal? Do you have one? Because you've alluded to it. Running a business as a coach is probably the most courageous thing you can do, right? Running a business is not easy, not easy at all. So is this the rest of your life? Would you ever go back to employment? Could anybody ever steal you away? Good, good, I'm glad.
Melissa Hague (38:54.711)
felt like a a when you back okay yeah definitely that that's at all no it's really interesting to me actually because i'm not i am it's really important to be clear i'm not coming from i didn't enjoy you know i hate it important i hate the business or whatever that wasn't true for me but there is no way i could go back to employed life and
Kate Chastey (39:01.952)
Can't cross over to the dark side.
Kate Chastey (39:15.8)
not the face.
Melissa Hague (39:24.947)
Interestingly, that's not really to do with the work I get to do now. That's about the way that I'm able to live my life because of the work that I do now. And look, a lot of people, know, not just coaches, know, entrepreneurs, self employed people will talk about freedom and space and all that kind of thing. And that's true. It is true for me, too. But I think the biggest thing for me is that I am
I am in charge of my own destiny. don't and as part of that, I don't have to ask permission from anyone to do anything. And it's taken me a really a little while to unlearn that the only person that needs to give me permission is me. So I don't you know, and it's everything from, you know, I'm gonna take tomorrow afternoon off because I need to take one of the dogs to the vets. No, just I don't have to ask permission.
I just can do it, right? I don't have to actually, do you know what, that project that I thought was the best idea ever last week, I don't, I don't want to do that anymore, actually, because I've had this other really great idea, I don't have to justify it, I don't have to write a business case, I don't have to explain myself, I can just do it, I can pivot when I want to, you know, so it is, I guess you would call that freedom. But yeah, the thought of going back to employed life now makes me feel a little bit queasy.
Kate Chastey (40:52.142)
I think a lot of self-employed people feel like that, but I think a lot don't as well. think there's perceived safety in it, isn't there? But, you know, it does give you freedom, but it's also incredibly difficult, isn't it? A lot of people wouldn't want to have that much choice, because that much choice can really, know, be overwhelming for a lot of people too. So, yeah, that's awesome.
Melissa Hague (40:52.694)
No!
Melissa Hague (41:13.953)
Yeah, I think that the important thing for me, and maybe this is helpful for others, I don't know, but for me, it was about knowing why I did it. So to begin with, it was to do more of the work I love and less of the work that I don't. And then when I sort of felt like I was achieving that, it's kind like, why am I doing it now? And so each kind of stage of the development of my work and my business, it's being really clear on why am I doing it?
Kate Chastey (41:24.536)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (41:42.211)
And I don't necessarily mean anything deep and meaningful like purpose or my reason for being here or just what is it giving me now? You know, and so kind of being really clear on that. It's been important for me to keep going when I think when I have a horrific day, or, you know, I put something out into the world and I get tumbleweed and I'm like, no one's gonna no one's gonna engage. This is awful. Or, you know, I do a piece of client work and I and I'm cross with myself because I think why did I do it because I
Kate Chastey (41:50.03)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (42:11.901)
not the work I love, why am I doing this work? That all still happens, but I know why working in this way, being self-employed, I know what it gives me as a human. Yeah, so that's, I have to stay focused on that, otherwise I probably would give up some someday.
Kate Chastey (42:29.55)
Wow, it's interesting that you still have those horrific days, Melissa, even when you have that much choice. That's interesting. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (42:37.739)
Yeah, absolutely. yes, but that much choice also comes with a challenge. So for example, I can, you know, if I haven't got client work, obviously client work slightly face to face, or, know, in person or client work. But you know, if I've got an afternoon and I'm thinking, right, you'll love this, because I should also share Kate helps me with my marketing. So I might have an afternoon, I've got it in my diary, I'm going to do marketing this afternoon, going to get all my content planner and you know, all that done, right.
Kate Chastey (42:44.078)
Really?
Melissa Hague (43:06.156)
And then I get to that afternoon and I think, I don't want to do that this afternoon. I want to go out in my garden and, know, deadhead my roses and fuss in my greenhouse. the third favorite thing is usually I'm going to do something with the dogs and that doesn't involve, always involves something energetic. Sometimes it's just cuddle them. But it's the thing that I still have to be really careful of is when I do that, not
Kate Chastey (43:08.334)
No thanks.
Kate Chastey (43:25.038)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (43:34.603)
feeling like I shouldn't be, feeling guilty that I haven't, that I'm not doing the content planner or whatever it might be and that I'm in my garden deadheading roses and I have to remind myself that I'm the one giving myself permission, no one else. So that you know yes I have freedom and choice as you say choice but I also have to be careful not to berate myself.
Kate Chastey (43:36.43)
Thank you.
Melissa Hague (44:01.517)
for making what might be what I'm saying is the wrong choice.
Kate Chastey (44:05.76)
Yeah, it's just the wrong choice. Yeah, just it's not today. I think the biggest the biggest thing about being a successful business owner is actually knowing that you can trust yourself to get stuff done. Because, know, employees feel like they have to do things and you know, there's somebody that's going to berate them. At the end of the day, when you're self employed, you just have to get it done. So you choose your timing to get it done. It doesn't need to be you don't need to Yeah, you give yourself a hard time over it. Super. Well,
I've learned lots more about you today, Melissa. It's so interesting to learn more about you. And I think I know you really well. It's really, really cool. What would you like to end on? You always have a question at the end of your podcast, you? Is there anything that you would love your listeners to take away and just know about you, either as a coach or as just Melissa?
Melissa Hague (44:54.071)
Yeah, yeah, lovely. Yeah, great question. Realizing how hard it is when I close with a guess. Yeah, absolutely.
Kate Chastey (45:00.814)
Shall I ask you a one word question then? I haven't prepared one so I don't have one so you'll have to go with my question.
Melissa Hague (45:09.621)
Yeah, I think for me, there's something in terms of what would I like people to know about me, I guess in terms of courage and coaching is that I'm not done. I don't have all of the answers and I don't get it right. All of the time. I'm still learning. I'm still building stuff in. So when I sit as a podcast host or leading a workshop on this stuff, I'm not the expert. And I've worked really hard to shed that.
need to be expert in it. But what I am doing is I lean in every day to the work of being more courageous. And sometimes it's hard, most of the time it's hard. Sometimes I don't get it right. I'm imperfect. I'm messy. I am just a human being. So yeah, I'm always nervous that I don't want people to go away with, you know, I'm not Brene. That's actually a really important thing to say. I'm not.
Kate Chastey (45:40.206)
Mm.
Kate Chastey (45:50.785)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (46:06.231)
I'm just me, just little old me, doing the work, leaning in and, and yeah, offering to help you do the same that that's kind of where I'm at with it really. And I guess what I'd like people to take away, or the one Yeah, the one thing I'd really like them to take away is that we're all doing this work, whether we're doing it deliberately or not, we're all doing this work. And
I have achieved more, learnt more and been more transformed by doing it deliberately than I would have been if I just kind of discovered it as I went along. So there's something for me about being deliberate about wanting to do this work on yourself and know yourself better because who you are is how you coach. So yeah, get deliberate and don't just say, who you are is how you coach. Mean it.
Kate Chastey (46:45.708)
So.
Kate Chastey (46:59.448)
Peace.
Melissa Hague (47:03.639)
Right. You do know who you are. So yeah, that would be what I would end on.
Kate Chastey (47:03.826)
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that. I love that. I 100 % support that. think if all coaches could actually bring their whole self and be deliberate about letting their clients know who they are, I think they'd all be as successful as they wanted to be. That's beautiful. Love that. Thank you, Melissa. We should end there because we could go on forever, but let's not.
Melissa Hague (47:26.947)
Well Kate, thank you. Thank you for putting me on the edge of discomfort. fact, in discomfort, right, because that tells me it was a good conversation.
Kate Chastey (47:40.086)
nice, the best compliment ever. Thanks for making me uncomfortable. You're welcome. You're welcome. Take care. Bye bye.
Melissa Hague (47:46.403)
Lovely, thanks Kate, take care.