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Explore culture in all its rich complexity: connect across differences, understand how stories, media, and pop culture shape our sense of ourselves and how we see the world, and dive deep into what makes us human. Find your way to build a space where we all belong
Hi there, and welcome to the first episode of Culture Navigators. I'm your host, Susan x Jane. And on this show, we're gonna create a space to get into all things culture. That means looking at the beliefs, norms, values, and behaviors that shape who we are, and that form the world that we live in. First, a little bit about me.
Susan X Jane:I'm a lifelong explorer of culture. I'm a transracial adoptee, and that means that I'm a black person that was adopted by a white family, and I've always had a curiosity and an interest in how we become who we are. I've worked to uplift and to connect cultures as a community activist, as a professor of communications, and now a culture consultant to public and private companies. I care about the cultures that we create and the work that we have to do to build belonging. Culture is created at the societal level.
Susan X Jane:And by that, I mean, no one person makes the whole culture. It is the accumulation of ideas and action, the notions of what it means to be human that spring up and guide us when we are in groups. Culture helps us to know how to show up in relationships and institutions. It tells us what is true, right, and beautiful, what it means to be a person admired or reviled by others, and it tells us how to human, what to do, what is worth pursuing and acquiring, and how we should make meaning of all the experiences that we have. Basically, culture is the software that makes us us.
Susan X Jane:You don't have to go far to find culture. In fact, nearly all of us spend all of our time in world shaped by culture. We find culture in small groups that we interact with, like our family dynamic, the team vibe at your workplace, or the way that your friends giving helps you stay connected to your family of choice. There's also what we call the big c culture, culture with a capital c that is the water that we fish live in. It's the net of ideas that we are always caught in and the front line in our all too active culture wars.
Susan X Jane:So we're not just in culture, but nestled in concentric and competing cultures all the time. When the beliefs that we share with family and friends are at odds with the ideas that guide our big culture, the ones that move politics, the economy, and society, we feel friction. We feel tension and misalignment. The culture wars cancel culture, the world of social media, and the reality of the deep divisions of our country, this is the moment that we find ourselves today. Do you feel the tension?
Susan X Jane:Despite what you've heard about the death of DEI, culture is here to stay. Culture is an essential process, fluid and ever changing. But right now with shifts in demographics and in our world, it's transforming and unstable. We don't know yet who will have the power to direct the culture that we all live in going forward, but we do know that each of us has to find our way through this transformation. Culture Navigators is a space I hope for all of us traveling through these wild times, so we can come together and try to build a space where we can all belong.
Susan X Jane:So welcome, and let's get into it with my first guest. We're just getting out of the most contentious presidential election in our nation's history. The transfer of power is not complete, and we are headed into the holidays. With all of the rhetoric and a full pitch, it can be really hard to talk across party lines. The division in our country is breaking up friendships.
Susan X Jane:It's driving families apart. Is it even possible to talk across our divisions these days? And how are we gonna hold our culture together so that we can all move forward no matter who sits in the White House in January? Well, let's give it a try today. I am here with my inaugural guest, one of my favorite people in the world.
Susan X Jane:This is my brother, Chris McDonald. Chris, welcome to the show.
Chris McDonald:Thank you for having me, Sue. I am thrilled to be here, and I really feel honored. It's it's it's gonna be great. So I think we have, a really cool story to share, and I think, in the end, I hope that whatever little kernels of of joy or or information we can we can, you know, share out there. It does good for others.
Chris McDonald:So let's let's have at it.
Susan X Jane:Well, I really wanted to have you as one of my first guests because one of the things that I'm up to with Culture Navigators is creating a space for people to have conversation about the culture that we live in and to share it, to enjoy the complexity, to be able to find some connections across the things that divide us, and to be able to find our own way to move forward in a world that we all feel like that we belong in. And I feel like that's something that, that I started doing really early on and you started doing really early on because we are both adoptees and we are both adopted into the same family. And even though I am a black woman and you are a white man, we grew up together as brother and sister. And so I feel like we've always had these conversations across culture. So I thought you would be a great first guest to get in here, especially at this moment when it feels so hard to talk.
Susan X Jane:Oh my god. It's the election is happening. The votes are being counted as we speak.
Chris McDonald:Yeah.
Susan X Jane:Oh, how are you feeling?
Chris McDonald:I'm a little nervous. Well, I'm feeling a couple of things. Like, part of me is sad. Like, part of me thinks, like, in this great country, the greatest in the world, this is what we put forth. Like, I kinda am, like, unimpressed, a part of it.
Chris McDonald:You know, it's like, on both sides, and I'm not taking shots at anybody. I just kinda struggle with all of them, and I think that's politics in general. I just everything I hear and see is, like, I don't believe anything. So it's it's it's a struggle. And then I'm nervous.
Chris McDonald:You know, like, what's gonna happen? Like, are we gonna have a peaceful transition? Is there gonna be chaos? Is there gonna be this nonsense? Are we gonna create bigger divides?
Chris McDonald:I'm like, come on, people. Let's get it together. And so I you know, I'm I'm sad. I'm nervous. And in the end, I'm, you know, I'm gonna bury myself back here behind the orange curtain and, try to do the best I can carrying on.
Susan X Jane:I think that's some good context for people to understand behind the orange curtain. So you live in Orange County. So you live in a pretty Republican stronghold in the midst of very blue California.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. It's a big like, the rural areas, the farmlands are all sort of that red area. It's it's I'm like the one red circle, you know, or or shape within a a density high density of blue between LA and San Diego. And, of course, you got San Francisco, but, yeah, it's it's it's somewhat unique. Yeah.
Chris McDonald:For sure.
Susan X Jane:Alright. So you live in Orange County. You are a father. You have 3 beautiful children. You are also a consultant and an engineer.
Susan X Jane:So you are a scientist. I always think of you as a scientist or an engineer at heart, a builder and a problem solver.
Chris McDonald:It's funny because, we're a Mythbusters family. We learn from this Mythbusters. The the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down, and so that's like data. You can look at data and numbers, and you can let the numbers do the talking as opposed to, you know, like, I I've been in sales and leading businesses for years. And one of the things that salespeople are notorious for is using words like, oh, it takes forever to get a quote out or, joo, it happens all the time.
Chris McDonald:Well, data can kinda define what is that time span, you know, or how what's the frequency. So I love to use that to kinda take emotion out of the conversation, and so that tends to kinda help me. That and sometimes I just don't know what else to do. I'm like, well, let the numbers do the target. So Mhmm.
Chris McDonald:We'll see.
Susan X Jane:So, an engineer, a data guy, a sales guy living in the red dot in the middle of California. And I am in Boston, which is about as blue as it gets. And I live in a very diverse and working class community, called Lynn. And so, again, another point of difference between us, like a lot of people, I feel like we're living in really different worlds.
Chris McDonald:Yeah.
Susan X Jane:And I'm feeling hopeful. I would like to say I am feeling nervous as well, but I'm really been trying this whole season to control the fear and the anxiety that I think really doesn't help us to hold the space together. But I gotta tell you, that's been really tough. And as we get closer to January 20th, we know that, like, the day we vote, it's not over. So I feel a lot of the nervousness.
Susan X Jane:And I guess that brings us together, no matter what kind of world we're we're living in, that a lot of Americans are feeling a little bit nervous, about this moment.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. For sure.
Susan X Jane:Now I think I think
Chris McDonald:if they're away if they're paying attention, they're having some sort of emotion. Right? And and it's hard not to pay attention because this is such a big deal. I mean, it's a it it really is. I mean, with all that's gone on and and, yeah, I think it's gonna be an interesting outcome.
Chris McDonald:So
Susan X Jane:I mean, I think years ago, we would not have thought about presidential politics being something that could be so divisive. But this really does feel like it is about 2 different visions for America, and a lot of Americans are living in really different environments. So if you think about whether you're in the Fox News environment or the CNN world, those really feel like different news environments. Middle of the country, the coast, people feel like they live in really different worlds these days.
Chris McDonald:Yep. No. For sure. I I used to see it all the time. But it's funny though, you talk about, you know, how political differences went on.
Chris McDonald:I can remember being in 4th grade. It was like Jimmy Carter and and Ford were running. And like, I can remember the class was divided and like, oh, you're the Ford freaks. Well, you're the Carter creeps. And like, even back then when we were kids, what were we?
Chris McDonald:10 years old or something silly like that? But it's like so you just I think maybe that's one of the things about politics, you know, that that it inherently causes divide. You know? And and I just with that said, I think the divides are getting worse. You know?
Chris McDonald:I think there's just even further and further apart. And I don't know if there's a way to kinda change that. You know, change the the the vectors or both. You know? Who knows?
Susan X Jane:Well, let's see what we can do to try to to bridge some divides today. And I think it's kinda interesting that you talk about, you know, how things have changed over time. And, you know, statistics do show that we are more divided than we have been in the past politically, and that the political divide is much bigger than it has been in years past. But when we think about the divide in our world, it is political. It is also about where people live, how they live.
Susan X Jane:It's about the culture that they live in and the beliefs and the values that they're living by. And so that's what I think has always really been interesting about us is we couldn't be more different, and yet we grew up in the same household with the same values. So we were adopted both of us adopted as infants. We have different biological parents, but we've shared the same family, ever since I can remember. And so our family is the only one that we've remembered.
Susan X Jane:So I think it's kind of interesting that we're really different. How did we end up being so different and growing up in the same family? How do you think that happened?
Chris McDonald:It's the same question I ask myself with my children, with these 2 boys and a girl. They're all they all look different. Some take after their mom. Some take after me. Some have personalities that are geared towards this or geared towards that, and they're they're wildly different.
Chris McDonald:And it's the same genetics even. And so that's a crazy part of it. You know, and it is I think it's it's it's the environments that we surround ourselves afterwards. I think, you know, when you get to a certain age, you're already predisposed to thinking your personalities have formed, but then you get influenced by your environments and your your general surroundings. And, you know, you you, you know, you've heard that, like, you become the the company you keep.
Chris McDonald:You know, if you hang around with losers, you become a loser. If you hang around with winners, you become a winner. You know? So who, you know, who knows? You know?
Susan X Jane:Well, I hung around with you. So here here we go. Winners. We're both winners. And we ended up being really different, but I feel like there are a lot of values that allow us to have some dialogue because we know that we do share some of those same values.
Susan X Jane:And I think you're right. Like, genetics, it's not enough to pull people together. As we said, a lot of people will be around that Thanksgiving table, and it's really tough for them. And with us growing up in our family, it was always this question of, like, nature and nurture. There were things genetically that made us really different, and then there were things in our family together that brought us back together.
Susan X Jane:What do you think are the the things that we hold in common that allow us to feel, more connected?
Chris McDonald:I think part of it is, like, we grew up 4, so we didn't really have a lot. Right? And so we had each other. And so it was a different era. Like, not every parent had a car.
Chris McDonald:And, like, so it wasn't me going here, you going we ended up hanging out. Like, I can't even remember sitting on the stone wall from the lilac bush, laughing our asses off because my leg couldn't stop twitching, and they're just hanging out together and having fun and and just enjoying.
Susan X Jane:Oh my god. I remember that. We have to for the for so the people know this is like a seminal moment in both of our lives. When we were young, we lived in a town called Townsend, Mass, and we lived on a little farm there, and there was a stone wall. And one day, we were sitting on the stone wall, and we were kinda, like, bending our knees, and you can get, like, you know, like, the tendon in your knee to shake a little bit.
Susan X Jane:And so we thought this is some kind of magic trick. We had discovered something amazing. And so, you know, for whatever reason, all these decades later, we always come back to that moment. And I think it was as much as we were different people, we were discovering together, like, oh, look at what our bodies do. Look at what this world is like.
Susan X Jane:And that really did bring us together.
Chris McDonald:No. For sure. And I I know too, like like, you talk about, like, we were prepping for this and you you you you one of the things you asked, like, what was it like to have a black sister? Not just she had a sister, but there's a black sister. And I'm like, I didn't really think much of it.
Chris McDonald:I was just like, you were adorable. Like, you were the cutest little girl, and you were wasn't till you got a little bit older that mom had to brush your hair that you became, like, you know, crazier. But, you know, like, we just loved on each other. And I felt I will say this. I felt special because, like and please forgive me if this sounds wrong, but we're, like, we're the only family that has a black person in it.
Chris McDonald:You know? Like and I felt like that was kind of a badge of honor. You know? It wasn't until we went out into society that realized that all people don't look at it that way. You know?
Chris McDonald:Mhmm. Does that make sense?
Susan X Jane:Yeah. That is it's interesting that you say that. 1st, like, my hair looks fabulous. My hair looks fabulous all the time, and that's one of those stereotypes about black hair. But I did have really big beautiful black hair.
Chris McDonald:Looking for a picture. I was gonna hold it up to show people. I wish I had it. This one. Yeah.
Chris McDonald:But anyways Well, I
Susan X Jane:have we'll have to drop it in the notes so that people can see it. I had I had really long hair that went all the way down to my my butt, and it was big and long, and my mother would put it in these curls. And so that was definitely early on something that let me know that I was different because when we'd go out in public, people would wanna touch my head. And I, like, couldn't really make sense of why they wanted to touch my head. And I think that we all grew up thinking that it was special to be a part of our family.
Susan X Jane:Like, because that was back in the day when a lot of people thought being adopted was, like, there was something wrong with that, or they would whisper like, oh, so you're adopted. You know? But we were proud that we were adopted. And it sounds like you felt the same about having a black sister that it was like badge of honor.
Chris McDonald:No. Absolutely. Really what? It was cool. It was like, oh, great.
Chris McDonald:You know? And we and we didn't think it was that big of a deal, which but we just thought that was the way Dick and Jane raised us, and and we love it. Going back to feeling special, I mean, so the audience know there's 4 children in our family. 3 of us are adopted. Our older brother, Rick, he was adopted as well.
Chris McDonald:But our youngest brother, Andy, is biological from our you know, from Dick and Jane, who we consider our mom and dad. And, you know, I've never once had a thought that that they're not my parents regards to being adopted. But we used to tell him that this is probably what set him down his path in life, that we were the special ones because mom and dad chose us. He just kinda happened. You know?
Chris McDonald:He was I don't know if he
Susan X Jane:planned or we just we always felt terrible. Yeah. Yeah. We did feel special. I felt I did feel like I was different.
Susan X Jane:And I remember not understanding what the difference was, but I knew that other people could see it when they looked at me. And so I remember, you know, like I said, people wanting to touch my hair or people wanting to touch my skin, like to touch me because they thought there was something different about me. But I remember at some point being too young to understand why they thought I was different. And then once we got into school, I'm sure that there were a few fights that you got into on my behalf because that's when it really started where people were othering me. Yeah.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. Coming back to Bryn Mawr Elementary in Auburn. Again, back to 4th grade, must have been a pivotal moment in my life. But I remember Laurie Sturges called you the n word out of the playground. You were upset, and I smacked her one.
Chris McDonald:I got my ass hauled into the principal's office, and dad came
Susan X Jane:Allegedly. Allegedly, Laurie Sturges.
Chris McDonald:Allegedly. Yeah. My my Convicted? No. Never convicted.
Chris McDonald:But, you know, and and he was pissed when he got there. But when they told him what happened, he got pissed at the principal, and he was proud of me for defending the family and defending you. And so but that's when it started to because I was oblivious to it. And even later in life, a lot of our conversations are, I just don't know what it's like to be a black person in America or anywhere. You know?
Chris McDonald:Mhmm. I mean, we would talk and and you talk about the little things, you know, like things that people say either under their breath or or get all up in your grill about things or feeling you know, being fearful or being threatened. And this is when you taught me about, you know, daily micro inequities. Like, I was clueless to these things. I just didn't even though we could start to see the older we got, you know, we saw kids getting bust in from Boston into, you know, suburbia.
Chris McDonald:I'm like, oh, oh, yeah. Okay. It's it's you know, we lived a very sheltered life, if you will. You know? Mhmm.
Chris McDonald:And I just was just unaware of just what it was actually like, you know, to be a black person. So and I'm still not. Even though we're close and we talk, I just don't, you know, I just I don't know if I'll ever feel it in my life, and despite trying to be that kid and and trying to be aware of my conscious or unconscious biases, but, you know, it's just it's a hard thing. So
Susan X Jane:Yeah. I think that it's, I mean, it's just a really different experience. And like you said, like, you will never know what it's like. It's like, we we can't know what it's like to be of someone else's identity. And for people who have marginalized identities, it's kinda hard to understand, like, what's it like to walk in your shoes?
Susan X Jane:You know? As you said, it was getting into fights or other people calling me names. I remember you, helping coach me what to do if somebody called me a name, how to respond to them, how to fight back and all of that. And so that part of it was there. But that other more nuanced stuff that didn't get said or the stuff that got whispered, you know, that's the stuff that I think I'm was hyper aware of my whole life.
Susan X Jane:And so there is always that kind of differences, that people have in their lived experiences. It's just real differences. But the challenge is to keep talking across those differences so that there can be some understanding of what it feels like, you know, And it probably like, it doesn't always feel good to not be understood by people that care about you. You know? And I think a lot of people have that experience in different ways.
Susan X Jane:I always felt like you all cared about me. It was just an understanding that felt very inaccessible to you all. Like understanding my experience as a black person felt really inaccessible, to you all. And so, so that was the challenge growing up. I think if we were young kids now, young kids now, families deal with it a little bit differently.
Susan X Jane:They maybe try to go at it in a little bit of a different way. But I'm grateful that I felt like you all all had my back even if I was having experiences that felt really different to you.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. No. It wasn't until later in life, Sue, that I started to realize that you were hyper aware of these things, and they went on. You know? Granted, full disclosure, I'll make fun of myself.
Chris McDonald:I mean, being, you know, a teenage boy, I was thinking about other things. I was like, okay. Where's the next party? Where's the next, you know, what what's the next girl I can kiss? And, you know, doing those things.
Chris McDonald:And, you know, but I, you know, I I wasn't paying attention because it just wasn't it just didn't jump off the page at me. And I I kind of look back and feel bad. I wish I had, you know, known or done more. But
Susan X Jane:Mhmm. But I feel like that we we've gone through a lot of different chapters in in our relationship, in our journey, and in the country. When we think about it, like you said, you referenced, we went through busing together in the 19 seventies. We went through eighties nineties where, you know, crack and hip hop were affecting the black community, where I was working in juvenile justice. And we were just, again, in just really different places in the country.
Susan X Jane:And I think as we started to see 2016, 2020, the rise of this period that we're in now, that really started to bring us into those conversations a little bit more than we had in the past.
Chris McDonald:Yep. No. For sure. And I think also that, even with politics, I mean, we started talking more about that and and and clearly, you know, illuminating our differences politically. You know, we never talked about politics.
Chris McDonald:It really wasn't discussed as a family. I mean, mom and dad didn't really talk about who they voted for or at least not that I remember. You know, I left pretty early. I left the house at 17, you know, and it was pretty much gone ever since. But, you know, I think just a lot of that, we we talked more and then and that's kind of brought up more and more conversation.
Chris McDonald:And and I actually think, you know, one of the things that I wrote in in my notes is, like, we've always been good natured about it. You know? We we, you would say, hey. How's your guy? What do you think of your guy now?
Chris McDonald:Or, you know, and it was just kinda a little jab and but it wasn't like, you know, you never, like, got hyper animated or in my grill, or we never raised our voices. And, you know, it's like we've always just been able to have this nice conversation. And I don't necessarily think we're unique, but I do think we are a bit special because I don't think a lot of people have the luxury of what we've had in our life together. You know? Mhmm.
Susan X Jane:Mhmm. It's those conversations have been they're not easy conversations to have. And I think that, you know, I have a lot of interest and curiosity in having them because of how I grew up.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. Sure.
Susan X Jane:And so I feel like I I practice them a lot. And they're hard. I remember, oh, for real, after we had the, the 2020 election, we didn't talk for a little bit. It was hard, and I was like, I didn't feel the ease because things felt so dangerous. You know?
Susan X Jane:And I think that, you know, we it was the first time that I felt like those differences really felt hard to hold between us, you know. And so it was it was not until, you know, we got together and we talked about it. And a Lori Sturges came up again. Allegedly, Lori Allegedly. Bad behavior.
Susan X Jane:And and when I compared your your voting for somebody that I felt threatened by to you not defending me then. That seemed to really bring it home to you in a different way. So how do you how do you hold the difference between us personally and politically? Like, does that feel different to you now than it's felt in the past?
Chris McDonald:No. I think age has a way of, doing things to you and and the way you approach and hold things. You know, like, I'm a lot more tolerant and a lot more like, hey. You know, full disclosure, you know, in the past couple years, I've had, you know, a 28 year career. My job was eliminated.
Chris McDonald:6 months later, my wife dies, then the cat, then the dog, and now I have prostate cancer. So it's like, I've kind of been able to put shit in perspective. Like, okay. What's really important? And, relationships and love and and life and family, that's what's more important.
Chris McDonald:Because in the end, it's like, you know, oh, yeah. He gave his heart to the corporation. That's not going on your tombstone. That's not how you're gonna get remembered. You know?
Chris McDonald:And it's really not what's important in life. I mean, it's it's so, you know, our differences are yeah. They're different, but they're insignificant in the big picture things. You know? It's not gonna change my love for you or how I feel about you.
Chris McDonald:It's not gonna change the history of greatness that we've had and all the things, whether we've had a lot of you know, my life has taken me in in a lot of different directions. I mean, I've moved 19 times. You know? And so it's it's nice that we've been able to kinda come back closer together, but I never felt a a divide per se. Even though the vastly different politically, I never felt like, oh, I blame Sue or I hold her accountable or I think less of you for that.
Chris McDonald:I'm like, okay. That's her opinion. And I think so age, my life experiences, but the other thing is the respect that I have for you and your intellect over the past few years, like, once you started your consulting business and to watch you flourish and to see how truly bright you are and how hard you work and how good you are, that's illuminating. And that makes me I've always wanted to keep learning, and I can learn I've learned so much from you. And so, yeah, I've learned that we are vastly different on our political views, but it's okay because you've got a really, intellectual opinion that I appreciate.
Chris McDonald:I might not agree with it, but I can certainly appreciate it and learn from that. And I think when we talk, we kinda come closer together and and, you know, I even though our opinions are different. So that makes sense?
Susan X Jane:Yeah. It makes sense to me. And and like I said, it's just it is challenging to hold. You know? It's not always easy to as these things have really become, like, significantly more connected to what feels like life and death, like what feels like personal safety.
Susan X Jane:And so I think in that way, you know, like the old saying that the personal is political and the political is personal because politics are about the organization of, like, power in our own lives. And so as we think about, you know, getting into the the moment in time that we're in and that we've been in, you know, I remember saying to you, you know, this, this, this politician, this president, you know, former president Trump supports policies that can cause harm to my life, you know, and as somebody that does DEI work, as you know, this year, I've received threats from people. And so it's not just at the ballot box or agree to disagree, like like that that bitch Laurie Sturgis. It really is
Chris McDonald:Allegedly. Allegedly.
Susan X Jane:It really is somebody that feels like they're coming for my life. And that feels that feels different than it felt in the past. You know? Like, look, you wanna be fiscally conservative. You know?
Susan X Jane:Those are the kinds of things where people are gonna have different ideas on policies, and that's that's one thing. But when it comes to, you know, people creating policies that are actually going to affect someone's human rights, you know, whether it's because I'm a black person or, you know, you have a daughter being a woman, all of those, we're seeing people really feel quite threatened by the politics of of today, and by the violence that is very real and very present, not just not just theoretical. So
Chris McDonald:Yeah. Well, we saw a lot of that. We saw a lot of the crazy after the last election. I mean, we saw what really goes on out there in the in the lunacy of that. You know?
Chris McDonald:I mean, it it's insane. But and that's one aspect of physical safety. And I I tend to look at things because I'm not a woman, because I'm not black, but I tend to look at things for financially, you know, financial safety. Because I have less of my career in in front of me than I do behind me, and it's, you know, I'd look at that, and, like, how is that how is that gonna impact? And and, Coronado, I don't know with either candidate.
Chris McDonald:I don't know. Like, you know, that can go either way, and that's part of what gives me this nervousness of, like, what's gonna happen? You know, am I gonna have to work until I'm 80? Or well, I even make it that long, but, you know, and if I get there, will there be social security? Or you know?
Chris McDonald:So
Susan X Jane:And on a day like today, I'm like, are any of us gonna make it through the end of the year? I mean, we, we we go camping together in August every year. And this year, when we sat around the fire, we started talking one night about what will we do if there's a civil war, and it was not a theoretical conversation. And I think that there are a lot of people that have started to have that, like, what will we do if things really do devolve into widespread violence? And that that's that to me is really frightening.
Susan X Jane:That's not about, you know, both sides. That is about us really being into a different place.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. As a culture, as a society, I mean, it's like to think that that's actually a real possibility. And we kind of agreed, that was one of the areas that we agreed, like, oh my god. It's it's a real thing. You you know, and not neither one of us is a conspiracy theorist.
Chris McDonald:And you you know I have a couple friends that are, and we've talked about some of that. And and it you know? Yeah. And and but we agree that this this is a potential outcome. So Mhmm.
Chris McDonald:Maybe you and I can, you know, be a bridge between those divides and help, help end the war. You know?
Susan X Jane:I always end it before it starts. And, you know Well, that's
Chris McDonald:So Yeah.
Susan X Jane:So here we are. And I think that sitting on the side that I am and sitting on the side that you are, there are some hard conversations across those. As you've looked at this election season and you see people, you see Trump intentionally fomenting rebellion and fomenting dissent before we even get to count all the votes. How are you making sense of that?
Chris McDonald:Yeah. You know, it's really hard. I I can't make sense of it, to be perfectly honest with you. Like, I it's just it's like, I don't quite get it. I don't think it's, you know, you look at that, like, the political ads and stuff like that.
Chris McDonald:I hate them. I hate that attacking. I hate that rather than talking about the good things that you're gonna do and you're gonna bring, you talk about the bad shit from other people. And I'm like, I just the whole approach to politics is terrible in the first place, and I can't and I and I hate to admit this on recorded, platform, but, like Yeah.
Susan X Jane:Here we go. No.
Chris McDonald:But I kinda I kinda bury my head. I kinda pull an ostrich. I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna ignore it. And, like, I'm gonna ignore that pain in my, metheregions and just say, no.
Chris McDonald:That's not that's not cancer. I'm just gonna you know, and that's in typical fashion, but, you know, it's it is. It's I can't get my head around it. I I really can't. And I because I at the first, I'm like, am I really hearing what I'm am I really seeing this?
Chris McDonald:Is it just is it just me that sees it this way? You know? And, no. I I scratch my head with the whole thing.
Susan X Jane:Well, you're in the middle of of red of of red dot Orange County in in California. Are people feeling like they are being threatened when they're supporting a candidate who's saying that he is is willing to engage with violence?
Chris McDonald:Yeah. No. It doesn't it's never come up in conversation. You know? I like I I I and I and it could be because the area that I live in, it's sort of like it's a very social area.
Chris McDonald:There's lots of, things to do out here with the amusement party, and lots going on. And so every day is like, you know, like you're going to a party. Now that's a little bit of a hyperbole, but, like, but they always tell you, don't talk about politics and don't talk about religion at a party. So it's like, you know, this does it doesn't come up in conversation, and I we'll see people tonight, and and and it just one of those things that just doesn't come up. And maybe we're intellectual midgets, and we just choose not to engage on a on a, you know, a higher level.
Chris McDonald:But, yeah, I I I don't wanna believe that, but I think, yeah, I just it just doesn't come up in conversation.
Susan X Jane:It's it's amazing again about, like, just living in those really different worlds. You know, I don't know a conversation I've had where it hasn't come up. And I think, again, there's a there's a real feeling of threat. You know, I know people who do work around diversity or do work around race and do work around culture. And, you know, people are checking their passports.
Susan X Jane:People are checking what kind of country can I get into? What's gonna happen, if we are facing 4 more years of this? And that does feel really scary, you know, and it feels really real. It doesn't feel like it is just, a, like, a made up threat because we have seen people experience violence, under the last Trump presidency. So it's, again, just really living in these different worlds where some people are really afraid.
Susan X Jane:Yeah.
Chris McDonald:Because you said something that's really important. Like, for you, it it feels real. And for me, it doesn't. It feels surreal to me. Like, I can't you know, like, it just does I just don't you know, like, I drive out and I don't it just doesn't cross my my my mind.
Chris McDonald:You know?
Susan X Jane:I think sometimes about how for us in America as a country, it's it's not something that we've experienced in in several generations where you have instability or you don't have a peaceful transfer of power. And so it we do have that feeling, I think, as a country, that American privilege, like, oh, things like that don't happen here, you know? And and things like that can can happen. They do happen around the world. Unfortunately, there's no political establishment that has been here since the beginning of humanity, so we know that they kind of come and go.
Susan X Jane:But it it has not been that way in the US. Now last time, January 6th, I think we came as close as we came, but even that felt a little bit like there was some cosplay involved for people, you know, that it was just something they were participating in without realizing, like, you know, to to quote Benjamin Franklin, you know, you have a democracy, a republic if you can hold it. Right? Yeah. And so what will happen?
Susan X Jane:You know? Are you still fearful of unrest as we're right now in the midst of it?
Chris McDonald:Yeah. To some extent because it's it's it's that lack of information breeds fear. Right? Like, you just don't know what's gonna really happen. And, you know, like, part of me wants to say no.
Chris McDonald:Nobody could be this stupid. Nobody could, you know, go to such great length to cause such, you know, unrest. But, and I that's part of what it like, I I fear that maybe I just don't know enough or pay attention enough. I fear that, yeah, he is so crazy or, you know, that she's gonna do something. You know, I just and and and then I fear, like, do I have faith in our society anymore?
Chris McDonald:Like, you know, is it like, are people just gonna lose their stuff just because it's an excuse to lose their their minds? You know? And Mhmm. Is that gonna be, as widespread? And we've learned a lesson from the past, you know, that that okay.
Chris McDonald:This got out of control. Let's make sure this doesn't happen again. You know, we all recognize that that's not the right kind of behavior. So now that we've been told that you're not supposed to storm the Capitol, sometimes you have to you know, I'm a little thick. I have to be hit over the head.
Chris McDonald:But, you know, now that we've been told and shown this, okay, maybe that will we have learned something and and and behave like human beings. You know? I just don't know.
Susan X Jane:Yeesh. I don't know. Listen. Your boy was wearing a hat the other day that he got with the Proud Boys branding on it. You know?
Susan X Jane:So just like last time with the stand back, stand by. And so it's like that's the thing that's that that is interesting is there's both this, like, I don't I'm not not engaging with the information and also not peeping that, like, the information out there is is pretty direct and and definitely, you know, is pointing towards fomenting violence or fomenting dissent. You know?
Chris McDonald:Yeah. That whole Proud Boys thing, that escapes my mind. But I think that that that troubles me most, like, you know, I've been around you know, we all know about Kennedy. We know about Reagan and, you know, and and for people that, you know but Trumpy, before he's even in office, people have tried to shoot him, you know, and and somebody actually did die in the first thing. It's like, this is this is not right.
Chris McDonald:Something is wrong. You know?
Susan X Jane:Well, yes. Yes. And, like, when we look at the first attempt on Trump's life, we have, an individual who does not they're they couldn't trace any ideological motivation. Alright? Leaving conspiracy theories aside.
Susan X Jane:Somebody who had ready access to guns despite having some mental health issues. And so when we look at politics and the lack of gun laws and the lack of support for people as people are really kind of struggling to be sane and to be stable, you know, we see that kind of feed into that attempt. And then, of course, that that turns the whole race, right? So that attempt happens. We see Biden drop out of the race within a week.
Susan X Jane:And so it really turns us to this moment. And like, I can't, I can't get past feeling like there is often this idea about, well, both sides are violent. And because there were these attempts on Trump, like, well, then both sides are equally violent, but one side storm the Capitol and one side still still is not willing to concede the election. Does that make you nervous at all?
Chris McDonald:Well, yeah. The the concede the election like, I don't you know, it's like, at some point in time, the the the numbers say what the numbers say. You know, it's again, conspiracy theories aside. Right? That's our control volume.
Chris McDonald:You know, as long as we don't, you know so that part kinda like look, at some point in time, it's like the the the system will work and he if he doesn't get the votes or she doesn't like, it it will happen. There will be a a a legal formal transition whether they concede or not. You know? But but right before you asked that, I was thinking in my head. I'm like, you know that first session, the I thought that might have been, staged to as a, you know, as a gimmick to boost Mhmm.
Chris McDonald:The and that like, and that's what the he's I'm like, oh, that I I I would have bet that that was staged, you know, and I'm like because I thought about the physics of what all happened. I'm like, I don't know about that. So and that's what gets me the fear because it's like, oh my god. I can't believe that that we're seeing these things and I'm having that thought. You know?
Susan X Jane:Yeah. Well, I think that's the thing is that there's so little trust in institutions that we used to feel were really stable.
Chris McDonald:Yep.
Susan X Jane:And I don't think that you are alone in thinking, like, did he stage that so that he could be the hero? Yep. Right. You know, and that and, you know, watching him stand up while they're they're not even sure what is happening. I can't say that the same thought didn't cross my mind.
Susan X Jane:Yeah. But the lack of trust in our institutions and the lack of trust that people would be upstanding citizens, you know, that our politicians, that we would send our best to be president of the United States.
Chris McDonald:And that's the thing that gets me the most, Sue, when you hit it, like, because, you know, like, I I don't trust CNN. I don't trust Fox. I don't, you know, like, I don't trust what I I don't trust social media. You know, I don't trust what I hear about the Russians or any you know, it's like and I'm like, oh, I I kinda just hope and pray, like, can't we just get through through this and and have it go right? You know, like, but, like, we never used to have to worry this much.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. Okay. Your party didn't win, but life went on. You can still prosper and thrive, and it wasn't gonna be all that. You know?
Chris McDonald:But this past presidential term has been the worst term for me health wise, my life wise, financially. So now it's kinda shaking me to the core a little bit like, okay. What's really gonna go on? And that's the thing that that makes me the most fearful. Just I just don't I just don't have faith in the in the in in the the system or the people and, you know, like, I just I I struggle with it.
Chris McDonald:And so when you ask about, do you think that this is gonna happen, that's what happened? Like, some of those things, like, that's so down on my list because I'm like, I'm afraid this whole thing is just a hot mess to begin with. You know? Like, if that happens, well, so much of the bad things have probably already happened, you know, if
Susan X Jane:that makes sense. Mhmm. So Yeah. It does. And and, like, I it's it's too bad that there's so much fear everywhere because I don't think it helps us make good decisions.
Susan X Jane:I don't think it helps us to make sense of the information that's in front of us. And I feel like there there's something there's something really I mean, I I can act like Trump's rhetoric isn't what it is. And it's it's just wild that you can have somebody saying things like, hey. I thought Hitler had some great generals and like that. That is something that would be something that you would hear.
Susan X Jane:You know?
Chris McDonald:If you were in a military history class at West Point, I can see, defining some of those people on their merits based military tactically, but that's in that context. Keep it where it belongs. Using that as a public analogy is just is just wrong. You know?
Susan X Jane:But it's just I think it's where his thinking is at and the idea I think Americans, would not wanna live under a fascist dictator, And yet you have somebody running who is espousing principles of being a fascist dictator. And that that to me is the part that feels scary. You know, like, I understand there are political differences between right and left, but now it seems like we've gotten to this much more existential point. Don't you think?
Chris McDonald:I think it's so much for this hyperbole. I think, you know, I just take it as, like, you know, it so that's part of it too. I just don't think he's an intelligent speaker. You know, I didn't vote for Obama, but I thought he was a great speaker. You know, I thought he was articulate.
Chris McDonald:He'd get a point across. He was always he was in control. He was, you know, he delivered Clinton did the same thing. I mean, anybody that met, you know, former president Clinton, if you're in a room with him, whether you voted for him or not, you were you were impressed by the guy. You know, he had some great Trump, I don't know.
Chris McDonald:I don't I can't really see that. If you watch how he speaks or, in some cases, doesn't speak, you know, it's kinda right. I mean,
Susan X Jane:He's crazy.
Chris McDonald:Well, he is. But now that now I start to see too, and this goes on both sides, like, the zealots that
Susan X Jane:are on. Don't both side. There are zealots on.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. You know, that's yeah. You know, like, people running down the street with flags, you know, for 1 person or another, and, like, these great big displays in their yards. It's like, oh, good lord. It's like it's like typing in all capital letters.
Chris McDonald:I feel like I'm being yelled at and, like, it's just being forced upon me. You know? And I I and I you know me well enough that that that doesn't sit well with me. You know? I I'm I'm I'm not good with that.
Chris McDonald:So
Susan X Jane:No. Because it feels it feels more like a cult of personality than a space of politics.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. You know? And that
Susan X Jane:that feels dangerous to me because the whole point is to have a democracy where everybody has a voice and we have some agreed upon rules. And when those rules go out the window, you know, that that's the part that, to me, that seems pretty frightening.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, it's it's it's, what I'm gonna say will be tangential perhaps into the conversation, but, like, it's that if you don't have structure, you don't have a process, you don't have rules, you don't have laws, that's what makes a great country. And borders is another thing that makes if you don't have a border, you don't have a country.
Chris McDonald:You know? So it's like these are these are things that you gotta you gotta have. And if you don't, then the the the then what do you have? Your chaos. You know?
Chris McDonald:And I kinda feel like we're getting to their chaotic stage now. You know?
Susan X Jane:It's kinda in like, look. You live in Orange County. You are not living in chaos. You live in a very nice place.
Chris McDonald:I'm behind the Orange County. Here, I know. I have a border. It's
Susan X Jane:Right. Exactly. So this idea of of this dark vision that America is a horrible hellacious, we have the best economic recovery of any country since COVID. So whether you're looking at it financially, whether you're looking at in terms of our military stability, all of those old metrics of measuring a country now in terms of wealth inequality and making sure that kids don't go hungry and everybody goes to school, we we've been slipping a little bit on that. But in terms of our actual sovereignty as a nation, I don't feel like that's been in doubt, and yet it's interest I mean, so you live in in California, a place where you have lots of immigration.
Susan X Jane:So you're on a border state, lots of immigration
Chris McDonald:legal and otherwise.
Susan X Jane:And also, you live in a place where the economy depends on having people who are accepting depressed laid wages because they are undocumented in order for it to function. And so there is a little bit of blaming people who are coming into the country and not wanting there to be any awareness at all Yeah. On who's benefiting from that. And so there's a lot of vilifying people without looking at, you know so we look at Springfield, Ohio. He's talking about immigrants eating cats and dogs, when in fact, those Haitian immigrants were propping up what was a failing economy.
Susan X Jane:And so, you know, I feel like, yes, to having secure borders and yes to living in the world where we're in, so that we're not treating the people that are upholding our life in a way that is dehumanizing.
Chris McDonald:Yeah. No. And you make a good point, but I assume we'll say, this is the kind of conversation that we will have. Like, people would rather just pay what they have to pay to get things done rather than having, undocumented people come in and do work below, you know, minimum wage or whatever. You know what I mean?
Chris McDonald:It's and it's a double edged sword because it's like, okay. You know, you wanna be a small business owner and sometimes you labor is a big part of your cost. And if you get cheap labor, then great. I mean, this is why, you know, the the a lot of, historical economies have thrived because they got cheap labor. You know?
Chris McDonald:And I don't wanna
Susan X Jane:Including America. America. And so
Chris McDonald:I'm on a I'm on a slippery slope. I don't wanna use this. You know what I mean?
Susan X Jane:You you you can't talk about economics in America and labor without talking about slavery. When I
Chris McDonald:when I went It's true in Rome, and I don't think those pyramids were built by, captains of industry per se.
Susan X Jane:Aliens. Aliens. Well, fair enough.
Chris McDonald:I mean, I'm a Transformer fan. I'll give you that. So
Susan X Jane:Mhmm. But America America has always been built off of, of slave labor. So we but that's who we are. And it's like, how do we face into that and move forward rather than acting like that's something that's not happening? And I think with immigration now, rather than vilifying people or wanting to try to silence that narrative, how do we get honest about what our country is and find a space for people who are really here helping to make our country
Chris McDonald:Establish a process to do it right and get them part of the system. And if that's a economic class that we need as a as a country to thrive and set it up and establish and let people choose. Like, hey. If you wanna come and do this, this is this is the space we have. Come on.
Chris McDonald:It will it'll and then you get the right to vote, then you get the right to health care, then you get the right to whatever it might be, you know, like but be in the system. And that's where, you know, having rules and laws, and I just I'm a big believer of that. Having and this this engineer to me having a process. You know? Mhmm.
Chris McDonald:So
Susan X Jane:So, well, since you're an engineer and a nerd and we're in this process that, oh my god, I hope that we're gonna live through it. And you're looking at where we're at now, counting the votes. What's gonna happen next? You know, we don't know what's gonna happen next. But do you feel like the the process of picking a president that you've participated in enough to kind of trust the process, or are you feeling a little nervous about, how it's gonna get counted?
Chris McDonald:I'm feeling more nervous, because my process was kinda simple. Like, I had my foundational elements. I would read. I would learn. I guess sort all the time for, you know, the all this stuff for the local things.
Chris McDonald:Like, I would take the time and do research and see which one was more in alignment. And now those lines are blurred a little bit. Like, who's really gonna do the better job for the things? And we've talked about some of this, so the data. You sent me some links.
Chris McDonald:You know, like, here's what the real statistics show. And so I don't trust it as much. You know? You know, so it's it's and and, like, I literally have the notion of writing your name in on the ballot because I you you know, like
Susan X Jane:I don't wanna be president.
Chris McDonald:Well, you make a damn better one than what we've got, you know, so meaning with our options, I think. So you know? But
Susan X Jane:Well, just remember just remember that bitch, Laurie, and and vote to keep your sister safe. So allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. You know, we we really are are so different.
Susan X Jane:We have these conversations, and I feel like a lot of times these conversations are charged with a lot of, like, anger. Like, I want I want you to change your opinion, or I want you to change the way that you think. And, and I feel like I try to just accept you as you are and talk with you. And and, also, like I said, as it gets more existential, it feels more meaningful for me to to try to push you a little bit and to try to get you to think, in ways that will keep people like me and, other people that you care about, safe that might be, targeted by some of these these these policies that we're healing hearing. So I hope that I've done my due diligence over
Chris McDonald:this year. Sure. We'll come back to before you finish, the thought that was going through my head is, like, look at yeah. We have big differences, and and, yeah, you might want me feel the feel need to try to do more about, you know, changing those differences, but you're not forcing it. You know, we have conversations.
Chris McDonald:But what we have, Sue, and this is a key to it, and and I'm not to sound corny, but we love each other. And that's part of what love is. Like, you love that person despite you love that person despite they leave the toilet seat up, or you love that person despite whatever flaw you may see in them. You know? So it's, that that's one of the best things.
Susan X Jane:And I feel like that that is, like, I do love you no matter what. And I feel like when we when we fell out over this over a few years ago or we we didn't talk for a minute, you know, we the love was able to bring us back together. And I wonder for our country, is there enough care and compassion that we can share with each other to help bring us back to the table? Because whatever happens in these next few days, in these next few weeks, we still are a country, like, fiercely divided.
Chris McDonald:Yeah.
Susan X Jane:And that we just have to keep coming back to that conversation with a concern about and a care and a love for for the democracy
Chris McDonald:that we need. Sue, all I can say is we can't we don't have the physical power, the superpower to change everybody and change the world, but what we can do is lead by example. And we can say, hey, look. In my life, in what I can control, this is how I'm gonna behave. This is how I'm gonna go forward.
Chris McDonald:This is how I'm gonna think. This is how I'm gonna listen. You know? And so that I'm that I can hear what you're saying and not just try to, you know, yeah, I hear the words, but what what are you really saying? You know?
Chris McDonald:And and and do those things, and and and and and that's my approach to this, because I can't go out and stuff the ballot boxes. You know? So but I can I can just, you know, behave in a manner that, I think that people can look up to and respect and say, jeez? I wanna be like that guy. I wanna be like that woman.
Chris McDonald:You know? I wanna do things that they do and and and be a bright shining example for other people that are looking to find their way. You know? Mhmm. So
Susan X Jane:Well, I think the example we said, it's not easy. I've listened to you, and you've listened to me. We've said things that we've agreed on. We've said things that we've disagreed on. We both agree that Lori was a bitch.
Chris McDonald:Not even allegedly.
Susan X Jane:But but the truth of the matter is that it's it's hard to be a human and that it's important to show up with some empathy and some listening. And I feel like that's something that that we do do. Like, we haven't always agreed, but year over year, time after time, we keep coming back and having the conversation and then realizing that the conversation about what divides us isn't not the only space that we share, that we're also gonna get together and have some marshmallows and some Captain Morgans and and and also
Chris McDonald:You just said something. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I wanna say this. The conversation about the things that divide us are actually the it's actually the thing that brings us together. Does that make sense? Because we talk at a deeper level.
Chris McDonald:We talk and and we listen, and we you know, we're not trying to force feed this over on the other person, or at least I know I'm not. Okay.
Susan X Jane:I gently push.
Chris McDonald:And that's okay. But that's the thing that brings us together. Think about what we're doing here. I mean, we were sitting around like, you know what we could? We ought to talk and share our story with people, and here we are.
Chris McDonald:And think about this. Think of we have one more great thing in our lives to share, and it's it's awesome.
Susan X Jane:Yeah. Yeah. And I I hope that that's what people will take away from this is to take the time to listen, to listen in empathy. And, you know, listen, votes in. So it's not gonna I'm not gonna change your vote.
Susan X Jane:You're not gonna change my vote, but we're gonna have to hold this space together going forward because no matter what happens, we're family. We're family.
Chris McDonald:Right on.
Susan X Jane:That's a great way to leave it. Oh, well and listen. If it gets really rough, I'm coming behind the orange curtain. Y'all gonna let me know.
Chris McDonald:We got plenty of room. Yep. You're always welcome here.
Susan X Jane:That's great. Well, I thank you for fighting all of the bullies in my life from Laurie Sturgis to today, and I'm hoping that we will, have many more opportunities to sit out, but to side the fire and talk differences in the future.
Chris McDonald:Sue, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this. It's been a lot of fun. And, I'm I'm again, I'm honored to be your inaugural guest. And so
Susan X Jane:1st guest. Yes. 1st, you'll you'll have to come back once the votes are counted, and we'll see how we're really gonna hold this space together.
Chris McDonald:Do it again. You know? Listen, when we're together next, maybe we plan the next event and and see what happens. And, you know, I think I'd love to hear how our message resonates with other people and if, like, people like hearing what we have to say or wanna hear more about it, and, we'll see what happens.
Susan X Jane:Alright. So listen, all of you that are listening, you can add us. You can find us on Instagram. Find us on the web at susanxjaneorculturenavigators. We'd love to hear from you.
Susan X Jane:What questions do you have for us if you'd like to hear us chat again? And, we wish to hear from all of you the things that help you hold that divided space together with the people that you love. Chris, I can't thank you enough, and, you know, I love you like crazy.
Chris McDonald:Love you too.
Susan X Jane:Alright. Love you. Bye.
Chris McDonald:Talk to you later.
Susan X Jane:That's it for the first episode of Culture Navigators. I am so glad that you decided to come and spend some of your day with me today. I hope to see you in the weeks ahead. And remember, no matter what happens, we got this. We can stick together.
Susan X Jane:We can get through this, and we can all find a space where we belong. I'll see you next time.