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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 30 (David Swanson)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. And in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by David Swanson.
David is the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church, who lives with his family on the South side of Chicago. He is the founder and CEO of New Community Outreach, a nonprofit organization dedicated to healing community trauma through restorative practices. David is the author of Rediscipling the White Church, From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity, and Plundered, The Tangled Roots of Racial and Environmental Injustice. He is a former director of church planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church, and on most Tuesday mornings, you'll find him wandering around Jackson Park looking for birds.
So thanks for joining me today, David. It's great to connect, and I really enjoyed both of your books.
David Swanson: Uh, you're welcome, Andrew.
Thanks for having me.
Andrew Camp: Um, so I went here and we talked a little bit about it before we started recording, [00:01:00] but um, you pastor, um, a multi ethnic church. We're recording this less than a week after the presidential election. Um, and because, you know, this, we are talking about racial and environmental injustice, like I'm curious for our listeners who probably are predominantly white, like, how's your community handling?
The past week, you know, the, all the election buildup and, um, the aftermath and, you know, how are you all doing in this space?
David Swanson: Yeah, I appreciate the, the question, uh, just, uh, by way of maybe, uh, some background, the, the neighborhood where our church is located is called Bronzeville, which, uh, for folks who don't know Chicago, I, I say it's sort of the Harlem of Chicago, uh, same kind of historical trajectory and cultural significance.
So still a majority African American community. Our church is about a third African American, a third Asian American, a third white, and [00:02:00] then a handful of Latino folks and some other, excuse me, more recent immigrants. So kind of all over the place, I think, for the most part, uh, the, the congregation, uh, took pretty seriously, uh, the, the rhetoric and policy proposals of the now president elect and, uh, generally didn't, uh, hear those as good news, uh, or, or hopeful, right?
In any kind of a livable way. Um, But also, and this is, I think, the real gift of our congregation and its community, many of our folks carry a long memory of moments like this, where the nation's politics very clearly and obviously don't have their best interest in mind. And that's a terrible thing, but it's also a legacy for many folks of God's faithfulness.
Uh, this real sense that our [00:03:00] hope is not in any, uh, nation or, uh, any government. Um, that democracy in this country has for the most part, not really been democratic for, for everyone. Hasn't really represented everyone. Um, and so, so there's, there's a lot of heartbreak for sure. Not so much a partisan heartbreak, but more of a, I think, a pretty clear eyed understanding of some of the repercussions and there is also this genuine desire to continue to worship, uh, to, to, to very publicly and visibly say, we, we've always known where our hope is.
We know, uh, the foundation that we have in, uh, a savior who has never been beholden to a, um, A nation that has so purposefully excluded so many, many people and it's in its government and representative process. So I find myself so thankful to be [00:04:00] able to be in a community like this at a time like this. I, I feel as though.
My personal experience has been so shaped by the community that I'm a part of. Um, I would probably be trending toward despair potentially otherwise. And I'm just, I'm just not right. I'd have too many of these other voices in my ear right now, reminding me that our, our faith. is not a theoretical thing.
It's not an abstract thing. It has been the thing that has allowed people to endure just terrible, terrible, uh, injustice and suffering and so on. So I think it'll be interesting in the days and weeks to come to see how we continue to process this. But as of yesterday, at least this past Sunday, I feel so thankful for belonging to this community.
Andrew Camp: Mm. That's awesome. Um, and you mentioned, yeah, like that you have these different voices that are encouraging you towards hope and solidarity. And [00:05:00] so, um, as we continue to explore this, like what, how did you as a white male get so, um, your heart beat so turned towards racial injustice, towards environmental injustice, like how You know, what led you down this path, just for our listeners to understand?
David Swanson: Yeah, I think that I grew up in a family that was deeply rooted in our Christian faith, and didn't understand that to be incompatible with a concern for equality, justice, compassion, and so on. I'm a missionary kid. And so I grew up in Venezuela and Ecuador. And so kind of lived and breathed that cross cultural reality.
And certainly that was really formational for me. Um, as I've gotten older, I've, I've thought back to the years when our family [00:06:00] moved, uh, back to the United States, to Southern California. And these were, these were the Rodney King years, the OJ Simpson years, California, there was legislation proposed that would have kept the Children of undocumented immigrants from attending public schools.
And that was, you know, those are my high school years of kind of breathing that air and kind of making these observations and trying to figure out this thing. This country that, um, that was mine, but that I hadn't, uh, had a lot of experience with. Um, I don't think there was ever a singular moment of kind of waking up, right?
I think it was more just this, uh, this environment of faith intersecting with these kind of complicated realities that I could observe, but that didn't necessarily, impact me in the same kind of way. So fast forwarding ahead, uh, when my wife and I moved to the Chicago area and started to get to know Chicago and, uh, made some dear [00:07:00] friends, uh, who introduced us to not just the downtown part of the city, but, you know, more of the city and kind of started on a learning journey about how this city has been shaped by, by race and systemic racism.
Um, but again, always from the. the perspective of, well, yeah, of course, Jesus cares about all of this. Like, of course, this is all central to who Jesus is and to what Jesus is doing in the world. None of this is separate from, um, you know, from, from the God who we worship, from the God we read about in scripture and so on.
So I've certainly had lots of moments of growth and kind of my eyes being opened to, to, you know, learning to understand how these things are connected. Say racism and environmental injustice and so on, but it's always been from this place that. Well, this is what Christians do. This is God's world. We're God's people.
And so, of course, this is what Christians do. We, we lean into these [00:08:00] places where there's this gap between God's will and what we're actually experiencing on this earth. Um, and I've been helped in so many ways by, uh, by dear, dear friends whose experiences have just been very, very different than mine who've been very gracious to invite me into their lives to.
You know, share some of their stories, invite me to participate in the good work that they're doing in our community and so on. So still got a long ways to go. Still got tons and tons to learn, obviously. Um, but, but the gift of all of this for me has, has been that my faith has never had to be separate from these concerns about justice, and I know that's not the case for everybody.
Andrew Camp: No, um, no, as you were talking, I was like, wow, like, what a gift just because so many of us, you know, I feel like myself included, we're having to relearn some patterns that, um, for good or for bad, the evangelical church, the white evangelical church has neglected. Um, you know, and so what a [00:09:00] gift that your, your faith has always seen.
Um, and been lived out in these margins. Yeah.
David Swanson: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, and what I've loved about your book, you know, and as I read it, you know, it, you, you're not talking from the abstract, you're, you're living it. Your community's practicing what you're talking about in your book. And so like, how, how has that journey unfolded for you as your community, you know, because I think it's easy to talk about these ideas.
It's harder. To actually, you know, practice the interdependence, the solidarity, the sacramental nature, uh. So like, how, what has that looked like for your community?
David Swanson: Yeah, I think in many ways I, I couldn't have written well, either of these books, but certainly the most recent one, uh, plundered without being really rooted in, in a particular place and in this particular, uh, worshiping community [00:10:00] because I, I needed their help to make some of these connections.
So, so just to rewind a little bit. Back in high school, I started doing backpacking trips in the Sierra Nevada mountains and just found this deep love for, for creation, for nature and college. I was an outdoor education major and I did a three month internship in Bolivia helping, uh, basically just assisting, uh, the Bolivian churches, uh, do wilderness and camping ministry and how this is it.
This is what I want to do. I love being outdoors, love, love God's creation. And then in graduate school, really. Was redirected to the local church in a way that was not expected. It was very surprising to me. And then a few years later towards more of the urban multiracial context. And so for, you know, a good decade, I was just learning everything I could about race, racism, white supremacy.
So on trying to make these connections theologically and. And and as I'm doing that, there's always this little, uh, [00:11:00] kind of question in the back of my mind. Well, how does this connect with these other areas of passion? Right? Um, so maybe similar to your podcast, you know, food and faith and like, how do these things right?
You kind of know they go together, but like, how does this, how does this actually work? And and my wife would sometimes joke like, man, you, You know, I, I married a guy who was like a hippie and just want to be outside all the time. And now you're, we were in this urban context to an urban ministry. And, um, and so being rooted in our particular church has been this gift of being able to explore some of these connections.
So that as, for example, our church is nonprofit, um. Takes over this community garden at the request of a local school and start spending time there and nurturing this ground into, you know, really flourishing and fresh produce and vegetables that we get to share with our neighbors and community. And I'm watching this intersection of.
what I would call, you know, racial reconciliation and [00:12:00] people's enjoyment for God's creation and providing fresh produce and helping people understand myself included, you know, where does this food actually come from? If not from a shelf in a grocery store, um, That, that lived community experience has allowed me to, to recognize some connections.
I just don't think I would have made otherwise. And, and I think it's the particularity of our places that opens up the kind of creative pursuit of God's justice. that otherwise escapes a lot of us. And maybe we'll get into this, but, but it's the, it's the distance from our places. It's living at a remove from our places, kind of this industrialized, um, uh, you know, gap between God's actual creation and where we live our lives.
That keeps many of us, uh, myself included from seeing the potential of joining God. in the actual place [00:13:00] where, where we live. And that's, that's one of the invitations I hope in this book is to, to push through some of that to, to a more tender, uh, relationship with, with God's creation.
Andrew Camp: No, and I definitely see that.
So yeah, let's step back a little. Cause I think where we are in this cultural moment, you know, these, um, you know, you talk about the Anthropocene age that we're in, you talk about the extractive. nature, you know, of both racial injustice and I think the globalized agricultural moment. So can you explain sort of some of these bigger ideas?
Because I do think they help people understand, you know, why, you know, this move towards solidarity, this move towards localized place needs to happen.
David Swanson: Yeah. So This was some of the digging that I needed to do in this. I understood and could articulate that the environmental destruction that is so common in our world has [00:14:00] underneath it, to some extent, greed.
Taking more, taking more, taking more at the expense of the creation itself. And we can think of examples of this. You know, blowing the tops off of mountains in Appalachia or abusing communities in different countries in Africa to dig for the components that go into our cell phones. The kind of mono crop farming in my own state here in Illinois, as I, we drive to our in laws down in Tennessee.
It's just the, the field just looked completely the same, you know, and treated with, with, with, with pesticides and so on. And, and, and. And it is somewhat easy to say, yeah, there, there is, there's some level of greed behind this. It just, we need to take more. We need to take more. It took me a little longer to see that connection with, with race, because the story we tell about race is that because people are racist, they take advantage of people and, and that.
That telling is backward. Historically, at least, you know, historically, before there's [00:15:00] ever something we would call racism or even race, there are groups of people taking advantage using other groups of people before there's anything like whiteness. You have European colonialists and settlers. Um, taking indigenous land, enslaving people from Africa, kidnapping them, you know, bringing them to, um, to North America.
And, and then over time, a justification has to be developed of why is this okay, particularly as Christian people, why is this okay? Right? And, and this is where the story of race begins to, to, to evolve. And it, it shape shifts over time. But now we can say. That it's okay to do this because we have a justifying story.
These people are less than they're not fully human. They didn't develop the, the, the land, so on and so forth. Just, you know, terribly evil and deceptive stories, but nonetheless. Justification for [00:16:00] so, so making, telling that story correctly for me shows that the same greed that that's underneath environmental destruction is actually beneath systemic racism as well.
There's, they, they share the same impulse, so if that's the case, if greed is underneath this, and then it's kind of manifestation of theft, you start to then look at our global economy and recognize that. It's extraction and exploitation that we see really organizing our world. That that the way that we treat the land that we treat other people is often through these assumptions of, of an extractive economy or an exploitative culture.
Where this place is, is for enriching me. It's for what I can take from it. Similarly, uh, though we wouldn't say it so bluntly, this group of people can be consigned. To, uh, proximity to toxic [00:17:00] waste, um, or to a flood zone or whatever the case, because somehow their lives are not as inherently valuable as is my white life.
So, so for me, being able to. Look at our world and see the power of these sins of exploitation and extraction. It's really sobering. It's a really terrible thing to have to reckon with. But I think it's necessary to say, here's where we actually are. This is where we actually live today. And to pretend otherwise is to diminish what we're actually up against.
And as a Christian, it is to diminish the extent of our sin. Uh, and so it's to diminish the possibility of genuine repentance, confession and genuine reconciliation and the pursuit of justice. So, so it's a, it's a terrible thing to have to, to have to acknowledge. I think it's a necessary thing. And I think the [00:18:00] only way that any, any way forward opens up is if we're willing to really tell the truth.
Andrew Camp: Um, so much you said there, there's a lot, you know, and, um, but it's so helpful. And so like, you know, we have these mindset that we're in and I think it's shaped, you know, I think me more than I want to care to admit of this, you know, the world is mine for the taking. Um, Like what world is like, it feels something, you know, and I've heard somebody else talk about it that, you know, maybe we're not in an Anthropocene age, but like this capital scene age where like capitalism, you know, I don't want to say capitalism is bad in and of itself, but like this unfettered capitalism we see in America.
Like, how is there any way out, like, you know, we're, we're so rooted or so shaped, um, by these principles. Like, that's right. You know, unless we tear down the whole system is like, Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Is there a way out? Or like what? [00:19:00]
David Swanson: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Like,
David Swanson: I mean, I, I, the, the way you're asking that question, even like the tone in your voice, like, I'm like, oh, I know that.
I, I know that question. I know that, that the feeling kind of underneath that question. Um, so, so, so in the work for this book, um, I recognize sort of 2 main approaches to, um, to, to trying to actually move forward, right? To acknowledge what we're up against, to acknowledge the extent of the damage, uh, both, uh, In the arena of race, but also, um, uh, the environment and one of those is very personal individual.
It is, uh, you know, we, we individuals need a change of heart because we have been so deeply formed by an exploitative extractive culture. We've come to see others in this way, see the creation this way. So we need individually a change of heart. And I say yes and amen to that. The other is, yes. Um, [00:20:00] we, we need a sys, a sys, systemic change that these are systemic realities, uh, having to do with, uh, a consumer capitalistic, uh, economy, uh, where, um, where we pay more attention to the growth of stocks, uh, regardless of what is behind that or what is underneath that and what the damage is.
This is how we measure the, the, the economy and economies growth. Um, And so we need a systemic change. We need to approach this in a way that trades a system of exploitation to a system that's that's genuine, genuinely good for the flourishing of everyone. And I say yes and amen to that. And then I also say, and I'm a pastor, right?
So, so my concern as a, as a pastor is different than either of those. It includes both of those. And I, and I want to affirm both of those and also say that, Um, as the people of God, uh, [00:21:00] called to very particular local communities, we, we have our, uh, specific role to play, which, which has to do with our local, uh, um, uh, material place in reality.
So that. It's not solely individual and it's not, uh, massively systemic. It's, it's more communal is, is what my, my focus is in this book. Now that includes the individual because as we know, uh, to, to follow Jesus includes a complete transformation. It includes the systemic and that, uh, as communities get to know and love their places, they find solidarity with others who are doing similar stuff.
And so we are addressing the systems that are doing so much damage. But I think as Christians, it's important to remember that we do belong to this particular people, that we are called to this particular place. And that there is actually an invitation for us to, to live out what I call our, our priestly caretaking [00:22:00] vocation together in a way that transforms us.
It makes us into a reconciled people such that systemic racism is undermined. And it introduces a relational harmony with our places such that our presence is no longer a burden to our place, but as a blessing to our place. So that's where I feel really hopeful. I don't think we can do this on our own as much as I think systemic change is necessary.
That's not where most of us live most of our lives. And so it can feel a little bit overwhelming. But I think inviting us into the good work of being the people of God in a, in a relationship with our place opens up a lot of creative possibility. You
Andrew Camp: know, I love that. I love that idea that, you know, being rooted and grounded in a particular place as a help as a Christian community.
Um, and I'm curious, you know, cause I do see the hope and I do think, you know, despite the pain many of us have experienced from the church, myself included, I still have [00:23:00] hope in the church. Um, But for listeners who are maybe beginning this journey and don't see how they've been impacted, um, by race, um, by the destructive practices of race and these destructive environmental practices, how can they then begin to walk around with eyes open to their community?
Like, is there a way to begin, because we need to first feel it, right? To repent of it and to bring forth something new. So how do, how do people Maybe who are, you know, in a white, evangelical church, may not see it all the time. Like, how can we begin to walk around with eyes open in our communities, um, to see how we've been shaped by these practices when it may not feel it?
On a daily basis.
David Swanson: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think that's an important question because it gets at one of the characteristics of an [00:24:00] extractive economy. Mm-Hmm. . is that it insulates some of us from its worst tendencies and impacts, even as those tendencies and impacts are very visible to those who live in those, those places of extraction and exploitation.
Uh, there's a, a theologian. Uh, Daniel Castillo, and he writes about, uh, zones of, of extraction. So these are the mountaintops being blown off, right? These are, uh, the largely black and brown communities, uh, living near, uh, uh, toxic wastes, uh, sites being exposed, uh, to cancer at much higher rates than, than others.
These are the zones of extraction and you can trace this way, way back to kind of how European. Yeah. Uh, colonists tied to ecclesial structures, uh, claimed portions of the new world, uh, to, to enrich their, their countries, right? So zones of extraction, [00:25:00] uh, but then there's also zones of accumulation, he says, right?
So what's extracted from these places, from these people gets transferred, uh, to, to others. And so the, the insulation that you're describing, uh, for some of us. Is evidence that that we live closer to the zone of accumulation than of extraction, that our lifestyle, that our ability to be relatively ignorant of the power of race of the trays where we live and how we've.
been how we've been insulated. So I think that's the first thing is just to acknowledge that, to acknowledge that that's not accidental, uh, that there's intent and purpose behind how our world has been organized, but then here's the great gift of the church. Capital C we have sisters and brothers who do live in those zones of extraction, who, who can bear witness to it, who can describe with a lot of accuracy, uh, what it has looked like to live on the other side of our systematized sins of greed and theft.
And so. [00:26:00] While, uh, relational reconciliation is not necessarily the, the goal, uh, it is a kind of ecosystem of justice and solidarity, because now we're, we're in relationship with those whose experiences have been very different than ours, even as they worship the same, the same Lord. Um, and, and these, these witnesses change then how we see our own environment.
So, uh, to, to, to think about a white Christian who lives in a majority white space, starting to be in relationship with people who live in different places will cause me to evaluate my circumstance, my, my, my, um, My surroundings a little bit differently, I'll start to ask questions about why is it that it's mostly white people who live in this area?
How did that come about? Why is it that my public school seems to be so much better funded than a public school that's in an urban [00:27:00] area or where the property taxes aren't quite as high or so on and so forth? Why is it that I don't have to worry about it? Living near contaminated drinking water when a whole bunch of other people do need to worry about this and and so just asking those questions coming out of of this kind of these these diverse relationships within the body of Christ starts to crack some stuff open for us.
And what we had originally assumed to just be the way the world is, uh, the kind of normal and neutral, we start to realize, well, there's nothing natural about this at all, actually. Right. It was imposed, uh, for particular purposes. And, and, and now we start to hear Paul's voice in our ear saying. Uh, we don't conform to these patterns, these worldly patterns that just seem to be the way the world works.
We don't conform to them. We, we, we actually cut against those things. So those patterns are generally not going to be the real dramatic stuff. Uh, it's going to be just the subtle things that kind of [00:28:00] work at their way into our way of life. We realize actually this stuff isn't neutral. And as a follower of Jesus, I'm going to have to choose another way.
Andrew Camp: No. And it's that living in that already not yet tension that you're already, you know, you, you voiced so well this time of like, yes, we need to recognize and own the stories of brokenness and the systemic problems, but also hope. And you know that there is redemption coming, you know, and, uh, I love how you, you remain so hopeful.
Like I think, you know, for so many of us, it's easy to despair or just get like, nothing's ever going to change. But you've adopted practices that lead your community, lead yourself into places of hope. And so, like, as somebody who's listening to this and they're like, okay, I recognize it. I'm seeing stuff like I can't affect governmental change.
I probably can't even if like Effect Ecclesial changes, you know, like what I am an individual [00:29:00] connected to a group of people like yeah, I can do something, right? You know, it's taking that first step. And so what what are these practices that you've found most helpful and hopeful and where would you encourage?
Listeners to start both individually and then you know as a maybe as a small group
David Swanson: Yeah, I appreciate the fact that so many of us don't necessarily feel a sense of agency as it relates to changing the things we're a part of. You know, we can see what's wrong. We can see how, um. even our local congregations often live out of step or live, live, live far too in step with the patterns of this world, right?
Uh, then, then the kind of, uh, community life that, that we long for that, that, that is a true and really difficult thing, um, and painful thing to, to acknowledge. And yet it is the case for many of us. Um, I [00:30:00] think there is something about Jesus's invitation to new wineskins that we need to pay attention to in this season.
I think we are in a kind of apocalyptic moment right now. We don't have to Pretend to know how that ends, but, but apocalypse is revealing, right? It's a revealing of what's true. Now that truth is the terrible stuff, right? That had been covered up and we're seeing that, but the truth is also about God too, right?
It's the, Oh no, God is actually very present in exile. God, God is not a long ways off. You don't have to go back to the good old days to find God. He's at God is actually in exile, welcoming you home, even, even in exile. This is, this is apocalypse, I think. And so for those who find themselves in that place, recognizing that one, God is in this place with me.
Uh, this is just the story of, of our scriptures is that God is a God of exile. [00:31:00] Um, And then hearing Jesus's invitation to new wineskins. So that will look a whole lot of different ways for different people. I don't want to be prescriptive about that, but I'm pretty convinced that there's always a handful of other folks, uh, who are being called to the new wineskins as well.
I think this is what God does, right? He doesn't leave us in isolation. So, uh, you know, Lord, give us eyes of faith to see those, those other women and men in my community who I can link up with. Uh, and, and then. Yeah, so then how are we becoming the kinds of people who actually want, uh, this other way of life?
Because an extractive, exploitative economy has done a number on our desires and our loves. Our heads may say we want something different. Uh, But at the end of the day, where are we spending our time? Where are we spending our money? What, what do our priorities reveal? And so we, we just have to acknowledge that as emotional creatures, our loves and desires [00:32:00] and wants have been misformed in some really deep ways.
So what then does it look like for community to, to grow into some, some new and some better loves and desires that will actually be a blessing to our, our local places, the three that I talk about in this, um, in this book are. These practices of belonging of keeping Sabbath and then a virtue and without going deep into these, I do think there's this, um, there's this need to become people who belong.
I think we're, we're, we're, we're familiar with language of belonging of like, I want to belong somewhere. Um, I'm thinking particularly about a, a people learning to belong to their place. Like. Here's a people who can only really be understood in relationship to their place. If you were to move them somewhere else, they wouldn't make total sense because they have such an affectionate relationship with their place that it's actually begun to shape them in a really deep way.
Uh, and then with Sabbath, [00:33:00] I've, I've just come to believe that that Sabbath, as we find it in scripture is a, is a, is a paradigm for a deeply human life. That Sabbath far less than being a, a once a week. practice becomes a way of reorienting our entire lives around gift and grace, uh, rather than around, uh, uh, greed and theft.
Um, and then finally, virtue is a deeply, uh, kind of Christian, uh, um, understanding of, of what it means to. Become the people God has created us to be and so I just take the the seven classical virtues and try to apply them to becoming priestly caretakers in our place and say, it's not just that we're called to fix a problem out there.
That'll. That'll wear you out, that'll run you over, right? But God's vision is so good and it's so comprehensive that it, it includes our own transformation in the really deep places as well. And so, so we don't leave ourselves out of this, out of this picture of [00:34:00] transformation.
Andrew Camp: No, no. And as you were talking about your practices and I was reading it, what I appreciated is that, you know, these practices were both individual and communal that like Sabbath.
Sometimes we see Sabbath or want to practice Sabbath as pulling away. You know, like, you know, I'm just going to shelter in my home or, and I'm oversimplifying whatever, you know, but how, how does Sabbath lead us deeper into belonging? How does Sabbath lead us deeper into, um, community and worship, um, which I think is such a needed way.
Um, forward and, um, because this is about the biggest tape in my podcast is all about the biggest table. Like, where do you see the table, you know, both in the church, you know, as the Lord's table, but then in our homes, how can the table be a curative action for this extractive exploitive. Um, economy world that we're, we're so inundated with,
David Swanson: I [00:35:00] mean, the table is, is sort of where we live all of this stuff, right?
Uh, the, you know, hospitality is such a theme throughout scripture and it's. It has to be lived, it has to be experienced, you know, you have to open your table up to others and welcome them into the space. And of course, at the Lord's table, um, we're being hosted by Jesus himself, right? We're accepting, uh, the invitation as, as, as his guests, uh, to, to come to, to come to the table.
I, I think locating the table within the practice of Sabbath. Can also open up a lot of creative possibilities. Um, it, the, you know, the Jewish practice, as I understand it, the table is central on, on, on the Sabbath day, right? The feast, you know, the, the, the song, the hospitality, uh, and so on. It, it, it centers around this, this table fellowship.
Um, Sabbath is this upending of Pharaoh's economy, right? Pharaoh says. Uh, you, [00:36:00] you are valuable for what I can take out of you. Uh, you are valuable for what I can, how I can exploit you. And this was the people's experience for generation after generation after generation. And then here comes this God intervening on their behalf and, and giving the gift of Sabbath to say, no, actually you're valuable because of who you are.
And, and this world is beautiful and valuable because I, I made it. And so I'm going to invite you into these rhythms of Sabbath rest that are weekly, that are yearly, that are every seven years, that are every 50 years. I'm gonna so weave it into your pace that you're constantly being reminded that all of creation is a gift.
That however hard you work at the end of the day, what you have, what you eat, the air you breathe, Is all a gift of, of my creation. And so I think we, we, we situate a table in, in that paradigm. Right, right. Um, it, it certainly, it flattens a lot of stuff, right? It flattens a [00:37:00] lot of those hierarchies. It flattens who has the capacity to host and who has the assumption of being guested up ends, all of those things.
If, if everything is, if everything is gift and it allows us to come around either. The Lord's table and our church, we always do potluck lunch after celebrating Holy Communion. So we kind of feel that in some kinds of ways, or we open up our homes to each other, um, within the economy of gift and grace, where we're literally tasting and seeing together of God's really good gifts for us that manifest in the food that we're eating and who prepared that food and the love that was put into.
That mac and cheese that you brought to the potluck, right? Um, in, in our case, uh, as we get into the summer and the fall, sometimes there's leftover produce from the community garden. So there'll be, you know, boxes of, you know, collard greens or carrots or radishes or whatever for people to bring home with them.
And so all of this for me starts to point to. The, [00:38:00] the, the God's logic of, of gift and grace, which holds all of creation together and where better than a table to actually taste of that reality.
Andrew Camp: Right. No, I love that. That, you know, that when we see everything as gift and grace, you know, life becomes, we, we, we have a leveling, uh, you know, and, and so then too, but like the table, you know, I'm just going to say it because the table can still be a hierarchical space.
Like I can invite people into my home on my terms, um, you know, and feel good about myself. That's right. That's right. How do we. Again, we're so inundated and live in this experience of hierarchy of extraction of exploitation. Like how do we guard against that pressure and, you know, Yeah. [00:39:00]
David Swanson: I think that's actually a really important question because the, the question is also about power.
It's, you know, who has the power to set the table, to choose the menu, to decide when things stop and start and so on. So it's, it's hierarchy and the power be beneath that. One of the things I love about our church potlucks is that it happens in this. We meet in a, in a school gymnasium, there's no air conditioning.
It gets very hot in the, in the summertime. There's bees flying around in the fall. It's very unglamorous. Uh, but here's this gym, you know, full of round tables and children and adults sitting around them, uh, incredibly, uh, racially diverse. Delicious food. Um, and we're all hosting together and we're all guests together and there's something really special about about that.
It's 1 of the things I most look forward to when whenever it is that we're able to purchase a permanent [00:40:00] facility. We've we've tried a couple of times and and it hasn't hasn't happened yet. But I, I get very excited about just the old school church basement, church kitchen, you know, where we're, we're hosting meals like this.
There, there are people in our church community who, you know, maybe wouldn't feel comfortable inviting folks into their home for whatever reason. Uh, maybe it's too small. Uh, maybe it's in a, in a part of the city where. They don't necessarily feel comfortable inviting everybody to, to, to come over, whether that's a good thing or not, but there's, there's understandable reasons why not everybody feels as though they can be a host.
And so I know it's not a glamorous answer, but, but there's something special about a shared physical space that doesn't belong to any one person where the community, the worshiping community gets to, to trade roles of, of, of playing host and, and, and playing guest. Signal. And for those of us who are [00:41:00] used to being the host, who are used to having the power to make those decisions, something very important about being in those kinds of spaces where we didn't set the table.
All we did was accept the invitation to be to be at that table. I can say as a white man, that has been one of the most formational things for me over the years is to be in spaces where The only reason I'm here is because somebody invited me. I didn't set the agenda. I don't know what the goals of this meeting are necessarily.
Right. I didn't plan it. Someone thought enough of me to ask me to be here, to be at this table with them in this place. That does a really deep work on my, on my own heart. Um, it ends up being a really liberating thing as well, too. I realized, Oh, actually I don't always have to play that role. And that feels pretty good actually to just get to be a guest sometimes.
Andrew Camp: For sure. No, I hear that. Yeah. Like I think, you know, often as church leaders, we're so used to being in charge [00:42:00] that like to receive the invitation, um, can be liberating, you know? Um, I'm been a pastor. I'm not a pastor currently. And so just to walk into a church space on a Sunday and not have any responsibility, there's something freeing about it.
You know, it's not a place I want to stay, but there's that. It's absolutely, it's also doing a work in me, I've realized, um, so I, I love that of accepting the invitation, you know, and being only at the table because someone invited me, um, you know, and so, yeah, I think we often think, oh, I need to be a good neighbor and invite people into my house, you know, um, how to go into the world as a guest and to accept the invitation, um, of our neighbors to be in their home or to accept an invitation to be at a table that we may not otherwise is.
Belongness, you know, not necessarily, you know, society may, may not want us at that table. [00:43:00] Um, so no, I think that's. That's gorgeous, you know, and so like you've, you straddle this line of, you know, not swinging towards utopianism and not swinging towards despair. How, how do you, how have you done that for, you know, your life and continue to do it when the world.
And much of the church would, you know, you could have just thrown up your hands.
David Swanson: Um,
Andrew Camp: so for you, David, personally, like how, how, how has this worked itself out?
David Swanson: Yeah, I,
I really, I really do still think this is a incredibly beautiful world. I think we've, we've made a terrible, terrible mess of it more so than, than many of us in our kind of privileged insulation are, uh, are willing to recognize. And, and yet this is a beautiful, beautiful world, [00:44:00] um, which is just, um, still evokes awe and wonder from me.
And I mean the natural world. Um, I also mean the human, you know, uh, world. These are not two separate things. They are the same. And. I need to, I need to linger on that. I need to linger on the beauty of, of this world, the goodness of this world. I need to linger on the, the stories that, um, are, are quiet. And so could be missed, could be overlooked of, of people's faithfulness and love for one another and love for their places.
It's necessary for us to know what we're up against. It's necessary to make these, these connections of what's wrong and, and, and, and our own sin. And how that's, that's woven itself into these systems. [00:45:00] But at the end of the day, I'm compelled by beauty and this is still a beautiful, beautiful world. Um, so that, that's probably the biggest thing that keeps me from despair.
Uh, I feel like cynicism and despair have succumbed to the logic of the, uh, The Anthropocene, where everything is devalued, uh, everything is commodified, and I don't, I don't want to live in that place, um, I, I want to live in a, in an enchanted universe that still is full of wonder and awe and beauty, and I think it is, um.
But but also, as you say, I don't want to, I don't want to succumb to the utopian instinct of thinking that we can make everything good and right. It's such a dangerous instinct. As soon as you, as soon as you, you, you lock your vision in place, you've got to start manipulating [00:46:00] people in order to reach that vision.
You've got to start manipulating creation itself in order. Um, so I want to resist that as well. Um, and instead try to live in this tension of telling the hard and the painful truth, but also never losing sight of, uh, of just how beautiful God's God's world and God's creation is. And then the last thing I'd say about that, Andrew, is just, it really is in the.
The connection with people in a place that anchor me in all of that, right? Because I can be having a terrible day. Uh, and then I'm with some people who've got some really great stories to tell about something happening in the neighborhood, something happening in the community. Someone can have a really terrible day and I could have come back from.
A little birding expedition in our urban park. I said, yes. And do you know what's migrating through right now? Do you know that the God who cares for those birds cares for us in this month? So, so that that location within an actual placed community ends up [00:47:00] being a huge source of hope for me?
Andrew Camp: Um, no, I love that.
And I think after, um, this week, you know, and coming out of the presidential election and all of, You know, it's easy to despair. And so I, I love that admonition where to look for beauty, to still find the beauty and the enchantment. Um, you know, whether it's birdwatching, whether, you know, for me, Friday, I got to go hiking in Sedona with some friends, you know, just like, yeah, um,
David Swanson: that's right.
Kind of contextualizes things a little bit, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so I think, you know, yes, we need to. Mourn and grieve what is real and true, but also to still look for the beautiful, like, um, to still have eyes to see, um, the beauty of our place, the beauty of our community and that's right, because it is there.
That's right. Yeah. And so listeners, I just encourage you to, to meditate on that, you know, to live in that [00:48:00] tension that David is inviting us into of, of grieving and mourning and telling the truth, but also still finding the beauty, um, That is all around us, because God hasn't forsaken this world. That's right.
That's right. Uh, wow. Um, it's a question I ask all of my guests, and so you've hinted at it, um, but it's always a great summary question. What's the story you want the church to tell?
David Swanson: Uh,
It's, it's Athanasius who says that, uh, the entire universe is created through the second, uh, person of the Trinity is created through Christ.
And Athanasius says, And, and through his life and death and resurrection, the universe is recreated through Jesus. I, I want the story that we tell about what Jesus has done to be [00:49:00] really, really big, uh, that Jesus has, has recreated the universe. And we see evidence of evil resisting that we see that what we've done to this world.
And there are our witnesses who have have lived through the worst of all of that and can still testify that Jesus has recreated the universe. Um, and, and so I, I, that's the story I want us to tell that because Jesus has done this. We get to play our role. We get to reclaim that role of of caretaking that that that affectionate caretaking for our neighbors and for ourselves.
We can allow ourselves to be cared for by our neighbors by the places that we've been called to. I, I don't think we can, uh, overstate the, the, the power and the beauty of what it means that Jesus has recreated [00:50:00] everything.
Andrew Camp: Wow. I love that. You know, like you're inviting us into this big story, lived in a very small, that's contextualized space, which is cool.
Like when you said big, I was like, huh, like it caught me off guard just because of how much you've called us to live in a very and pay attention in a right way of our localized space. Right. Hmm. I think situating that localized story in the big story can only, you know, usher us forward into something new.
That's right. Um, well, David, thank you. Um, but before we end, I have a few fun questions centered around food to end with. Um, it's 180, but it's also fun. Um, so what's one food you refuse to eat?
David Swanson: Oh, this is embarrassing. I still can't eat tomatoes. I like them in any form except whole raw tomatoes and we grow them and our kids love them and I try every summer and
Andrew Camp: can't do it.
That's fair. I [00:51:00] understand. I get it. I think someone, another guest mentioned tomatoes too. Um, I think it might've been Richard Beck, but so anyway, you're not alone. So, uh, I
David Swanson: was visiting this, this farm in Portland a year ago and they had all these different tomatoes and I'm just like feeling so terrible.
Like they're like trying to get us to taste them and finally go like, and this one tastes like a peach. I'm like, all right, I'll try it. And I, with my imagination I could get there, but I was like, no, it's still a tomato. I still can't do it.
Andrew Camp: That's
David Swanson: so bad.
Andrew Camp: That's fair. No, I understand. Um, on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
David Swanson: Oh, gosh. We have so much good food in, in the city of Chicago. Uh, one of the best things. So there's a sandwich that you can really only get in Chicago. It's called a jibarito. And it was, it was invented by Puerto Ricans living in Chicago and it's, um, it's mashed plantains fried, and then that becomes the bread of the sandwich.
And then you've [00:52:00] got lettuce, mayo, tomato, a few tomatoes, and then different, you know, meat, meat options. Um, I, I could come, I could say, answer a lot of different things, that question, but that's a super Chicago thing that if you ever visit Chicago, you've got to, you've got to try a jibarito.
Andrew Camp: Jibarito. Okay.
I've not heard it. Wow. That's a new one for me. That's cool. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals. As in, if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? And so if David knew he had one last meal to enjoy, what might be on his table?
David Swanson: I probably be two different options. One would be like my birthday meal growing up was very simple. My mom would make baked beans, potato salad, and then my dad would grill hamburgers. And so that's, that's one of my favorite comfort foods to this, to this day. Um, tomorrow I'm going to make this, uh, Thomas Keller, um, butternut [00:53:00] squash soup.
Squashes are in season right now here in Chicago and it is so delicious. So I'm thinking like, cause the fall, right? Like I love this soup in the fall. So if my last meal was in the fall, that might be what I would choose. Is that, is that butternut squash soup? It's super delicious.
Andrew Camp: That's awesome. No, I appreciate it.
Um, thank you, David. This, I love this conversation. Um, yeah, I just really love your heart. You know, the, the reality. That you call us to embrace of the goodness and the pain and the, you know, um, and so if people want to learn more about your work and what you're thinking, what you're up to, is there a place they can find you?
David Swanson: Yeah. My website is kind of has all the different links to social stuff and newsletter. It's DW Swanson as in David Winston Swanson, dwswanson. com.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. Yep. And we'll make sure that's in the show notes. Um, but yeah, please do follow David, find his work, read his books, Plundered and Rediscipling the White, um, Church, I think which came out [00:54:00] right before COVID, um, which was very, you know,
David Swanson: um,
Andrew Camp: it, it helped me and some of my friends, um, as we navigated that time.
So, um, thank you. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your. your call to the church. Um, David, that you are a gift for us. So thank you. Thanks for having
David Swanson: me, Andrew. This was a really fun conversation.
Andrew Camp: I'm glad. Um, so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others.
Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest table where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food until next time. Bye.