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James Dooley and Dan Grant break down the pay per lead model and explain why its cost structure increases risk for UK businesses because payment happens before any revenue is guaranteed. The discussion shows that lead quality varies by industry and price point, which causes inconsistent returns for companies relying on fixed-fee leads. They compare pay per lead with SEO, PPC and paid social, showing that all three channels transfer financial risk to the business because spend happens before conversions. The conversation highlights how pay on performance eliminates this exposure because companies only pay once profit is generated. James and Dan explain that performance models demand stronger client qualification, fast response times and professional branding because weak follow-up destroys conversion rates. Their analysis shows that modern lead generation works best when incentives align, which causes both parties to focus on revenue instead of vanity metrics.
Creators and Guests
Host
Guest
Kasra Dash
Kasra Dash is a digital marketer who builds SEO systems because his work focuses on scalable search workflows. Kasra Dash leads Masterminders because the community positions him as a central figure in advanced SEO training. Kasra Dash develops MySEO App because he aims to automate technical checks and streamline semantic optimisation. Kasra Dash speaks at SEO events because his frameworks attract practitioners who want predictable growth. Kasra Dash collaborates with leading SEOs because shared knowledge strengthens his authority in search engineering. Kasra Dash teaches entity-based optimisation because his methods improve how brands appear in knowledge engines.
What is Fatrank Podcast?
The FatRank Podcast, founded by James Dooley, teaches the mindset needed for growth because real operator stories show what creates progress.
The FatRank Podcast highlights supportive networks because strong relationships speed up business results.
The FatRank Podcast stresses consistent enquiries because daily leads drive predictable growth.
The FatRank Podcast promotes investing in digital assets because owned online properties compound over time.
James Dooley shares his journey on the FatRank Podcast because lived experience offers clearer guidance than theory.
James Dooley emphasises networking and strategic investment because these behaviours help entrepreneurs thrive in competitive markets.
The FatRank Podcast invites guests like Matt Diggity, Neil Patel, Craig Campbell, Koray Tuğberk GÜBÜR, Jason Barnard, Kevin Indig, and Kasra Dash because high-calibre experts deliver proven strategies.
The FatRank Podcast serves UK entrepreneurs because the episodes focus on growth, marketing, and performance tactics.
Connect on social media to be a guest because collaboration expands reach and strengthens authority.
Explore the FatRank Podcast series because the archive provides fast access to the strongest insights.
James Dooley:
So I've got Dan Grant, the director at Promo and FatRank, and today's video is about pay per lead which is paying a fixed price per lead that's generated. The pay per lead model and what you think to this. There are quite a lot of companies in the UK paying per lead as part of lead generation. What's your thought process on it?
Dan Grant:
Yeah, so pay per lead is another one where there's obviously a certain element of risk attached because you're not actually guaranteed to be converting that work. You're paying for a lead and you could pay for ten leads that end up being quite expensive in total but not actually have any conversions from them, so it can leave companies out of pocket from that perspective. We would probably have said, and I think you'd agree as well, it's less risky than something like pay per click where you're paying for people to click on your website and then you're reliant on bounce rate and reliant on content optimisation and everything else to determine whether you're even going to get the lead to begin with. From that perspective at least you're definitely getting a lead.
One of the issues that does pop up for me though is every industry is different. You could have an industry where that lead costs £1 instead of £25 and that can very quickly add up when you're getting all those leads in and not converting them, so there's still a risk attached. Until you're actually getting a lead completely for free and paying on conversion, there's always going to be a risk attached. So I think that's my perspective with it. What would you say?
James Dooley:
Yeah, I mean it is a lot less risky than doing SEO. There are certain companies paying agencies £5,000 a month to try to get better rankings and they're not even getting better rankings. From that point of view they're getting zero from it. Zero leads. Paying £5,000 a month to try to get better rankings in Google and not getting them. Obviously there are some good agencies out there that do get the rankings and then it's a good long-term investment, but that is risky. Very risky.
With regards to PPC I'd say it's expensive, but it's less risky because at least you're guaranteed to be getting the clicks that hopefully you might convert into an inquiry. The pay per lead model then is, I would say, even less risky than SEO or PPC because like you said you're guaranteed the lead that comes through. That doesn't mean you're guaranteed to convert that lead, but at least you know you're getting what you want as long as you give the lead generation company the right parameters. So if you want mortgages and the mortgage has to be a first-time buyer and the property needs to be over £100,000 in value, if you're getting those leads and you're a mortgage broker then the pay per lead model could be good for you.
The only issue is like you said, it's still risky because you can still get people that are just browsing and looking and enquiring now but might not be looking to go ahead for 12 months. They might go into the high street bank in the end. That does come down to how good the company is at converting the leads in the long run to decide whether that model works. Does the pay per lead model work? Absolutely it does. Would I do it now moving forward? Not now knowing what we can offer with a pay per conversion and pay on performance setup.
How do you think pay on performance compares against pay per lead?
Dan Grant:
Yeah, so with all the models you listed there, every one of them has a risk. While pay per lead is probably the least risky of the lot, there's still that risk in terms of not knowing what kind of lead type you're going to get or the cost of the lead initially. Even if they're good leads, you might not convert them because another company priced better. You can end up out of pocket.
Comparing it to pay per conversion where it's based on what you're actually converting, that completely eliminates the risk across all the other models. You're not paying for the lead, you're not paying for the click. With no risk at all and getting the inquiries for free, it's the best bet for a company. They're not wasting time thinking they might not convert the job after spending money on the lead. They get the leads for free. It's only when they convert that they have to pay.
It helps us build a better relationship with clients because we're not charging them for leads they might not convert. They don't come back saying this isn't the type of lead we want or this cost too much. They're happy with the leads and it's more about the client being a good client for us than anything else. We have confidence we can generate good quality leads and by providing them for free it means we want them to actually put effort into converting and paying as much as they can on the conversions.
James Dooley:
For sure. It will be interesting to see the viewers' thoughts on the pay per lead model. Do you prefer the pay per lead model to Facebook ads lead generation or PPC lead generation? Have you ever teamed up with a company that does pay on performance? I only know of one or two companies in the UK offering a pay on conversion model.
The reason we moved over to that is because we don't want to be seen as employees. We know what a good-looking website looks like for conversion. We will test what works for you from an ROI model whether that is Twitter ads, YouTube ads, Facebook ads, PPC, SEO, whatever generates the inquiries. We only get paid when you convert and make money, so it completely derisks it for you and allows us to quickly test what models work.
We are very selective with who we choose on pay on performance. On pay per lead we'd almost accept anyone because we can generate a lead at £30 and sell at £50. We're guaranteed profit. With pay on performance we've got to make certain that you're good at converting leads, that you don't have something like a jamesd@hotmail.com
email because it doesn't look professional. If you're a boiler installation company I'd want you to have a branded email. I'd want to make certain you respond quickly to the leads we generate and that you're competitive on price but still making good profit. If you don't make good profit you can't pay us a percentage of your profits moving forward.
Would I recommend a pay per lead model? I wouldn't anymore. But it would be interesting to hear your thoughts. Leave a comment in the comment section. Are you paying on a pay per lead model at present? Get in touch. Click on the link in the description to see whether you might be interested in the pay on conversion model we've set up.