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No state has fallen further than Kansas in America’s Health Rankings. We used to be 8th in 1991.
Why did we slip so far down in the rankings? The answer might surprise you; it’s based on a leadership challenge.
At the Kansas Health Foundation, our bold vision is to make Kansas the healthiest state in the nation and to do so, this movement must be powered by Kansans in positions of authority and influence to shift Health outcomes.
Starting with the launch of the 2025 publication, Leading Health, written by President and CEO of the Kansas Health Foundation, Ed O’Malley, this podcast aims to break down key concepts of this leadership challenge and actionable ways that we can work together to make a real impact on Health in Kansas.
In each episode, Ed O’Malley, and Senior Advisor at Kansas Health Foundation, Susan Kang, will highlight a chapter in the book and discuss with Kansans who are actively engaged in expanding our definition of Health.
Leading Health is an invitation to move the needle on Health in Kansas, and we invite you to join us in leading the way.
Ep09
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Ed O'Malley: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the Leading Health Podcast where we dive into this book Leading Health. How you and 30,000 Kansans help communities thrive. Susan, great to be [00:01:00] with you again for another conversation. This time we're talking about chapter nine, which is titled, it's a Leadership Challenge because it requires.
Loss. Right before this, we had a conversation with Kenny Wilke, our last episode talking about it's a leadership challenge because our assumptions matter and we have to rethink our assumptions. We're gonna have a great conversation today. Another one with Jonathan Ette, who's joined us before. And of course, this whole thing is because we're trying to stimulate conversation.
About how those in authority roles in Kansas Civic authority help do their part to help Kansas climb the health rankings and get to number one. Susan, good to be with you again. How you doing?
Susan Kang: I'm great. I'm really excited to talk about this chapter. ~It, ~
Ed O'Malley: ~it's a, ~it's a good chapter. It's a little bit of a heavy chapter.
Susan Kang: Yeah, it is. It is. And I think that people wouldn't necessarily associate exercising leadership with loss.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah.
Susan Kang: Or, or the fact that it [00:02:00] requires loss. Yeah. talk a little bit more about the concept that it's not that people resist change, but that what they fear is the loss. So te tell us a little bit about that.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, the, this is such a big part of the, of the chapter. It, frankly, it's such a big part of, of the whole book and, and listeners have probably heard people say before or they maybe said themselves or maybe thought themselves before, that people are afraid of change.
And that is not true. And that's something we try to get across in this book. And we bring this up because going from our low point was number 31 in the health rankings. Mm-hmm. And climbing all the way to number one. And as you and I know, we're at number 27 right now. Right. Okay. So we've been climbing the last few years.
First time three years in a row. In 35 years, Kansas has gotten better in the health rankings. But to go from that low point 31 to number one is gonna require change. Right.
Susan Kang: Right.
Ed O'Malley: And, and so we, we needed to land this point [00:03:00] that believing people are afraid of change is not a useful way of thinking, and it's just false.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: Okay. And we know it's false because people are fine with change. That's good for them. Right. You know, if I have a billion dollar winning lottery ticket, Susan and I give it to you. It's gonna change your life and you're not gonna be afraid of that change. You're gonna be excited about it.
Right?
Susan Kang: Yeah. ~I might not be here tomorrow. ~
Ed O'Malley: ~You might not be here tomorrow. Right? Yeah. ~People are okay with change. They like so saying people are afraid of change is one false? Mm-hmm. It's, it's not just true. And, and also when we say that or we believe that something dangerous happens and what, what happens is.
We, we kind of place the responsibility for, for like the problem or for the, the, the lack of change on, on their backs, on those people who are quote unquote, afraid of change. If instead we, we realize what's really [00:04:00] happening is that people aren't afraid of change, per se. They are at times afraid of change that to them represents loss.
Like if we understand that, if we understand that, oh, they're not afraid of change, per se, they think the change I'm suggesting. The change I'm pushing isn't gonna be good for them.
And that's what they're resisting when we can think of it that way. Now, the, the work is on us now.
The, the locus of work, kind of a weird word, but the, the kind of the locus of work can be on us if now I need to be different, show up, different, engage different in order to help reach these people. It's a totally different mindset when we say people are afraid of change. We kinda, all those people are afraid of change.
They're just, but when we say, oh, they must be resisting something. Yeah. That I, that I, I must not understand what's wrong about my brilliant idea.
Susan Kang: So this is a great segue to the next concept that I would [00:05:00] love for you to shed a little bit more light on this notion of resistance as. Data together rather than a problem or an obstacle.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Kang: Right. Like, no, people don't think about things this way. You're like, oh, you know, oh, they don't like it. I'm gonna just forget about it. Right. But that's not what you do. So I'm curious, say a little bit more about that.
Ed O'Malley: I mean, so people who are trying to do something big and bold, like improve capital H health.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: People who are trying to improve their communities. I mean, they, they're in the business of change.
Susan Kang: Right.
Ed O'Malley: Right. Which, by the way, most people in roles of authority don't get rewarded for changing things. They get rewarded for keeping things exactly the same.
Right, right, right. Damaging the status quo, keeping things calm. Yep. Keeping things stable, so we, in this book, we also talk about how leadership is about disruption. Yeah. And we need more of that from the 30,000, but to your point, what. What I've always tried to help people understand is when people are resisting, [00:06:00] see that as data to inform your, your, your efforts.
Like why are they resisting? Well, okay, maybe there's some loss involved for them. Hmm. Do I understand that loss? I used to think that if somebody was resisting. My big idea, my brilliant idea, right? For, for, for whatever. Like I, I remember feeling this way in the legislature when I was a young member of the Kansas House of Representatives.
If people were resisting, I thought what I was supposed to do. Was just speak louder, you know, like try to be more charismatic, uhhuh, try to be more effusive in explaining the idea.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: And what I eventually learned is when people are resisting change, they're giving you information. That you need to process.
And that doesn't mean you need to change what you're trying to do. Mm-hmm. But it means you might need to change how you're trying to do it. And that's what this chapter is about. It's about the need to understand that progress on [00:07:00] closing the health gap will actually require some losses. Mm-hmm. And we can talk about those with our, with our guest, Jonathan Sublet.
He'll be with us in a little bit. And. We need people who understand losses connected to progress, and who have the skill to help mobilize others to think about the losses necessary with moving forward.
Susan Kang: Thanks. Ed, I have one more thing that I would, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about, which is this concept of not only speaking to loss, but then letting loss speak.
I, I was, I was, I was really intrigued by this concept.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. You know, the, again, earlier in my career I thought like if, if there was something like a, some big initiative I was a part of, if there were some things that weren't great about it.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Ed O'Malley: You know, that would be hard to swallow. I would like sweep those under the rug.
Mm-hmm. Or I would. Not talk about those things. I would, you know, if I was, like, when I was in the, in the legislature, Susan, if you were number another member of the legislature and I was trying to get you to vote for something mm-hmm. [00:08:00] That I thought was really important, but it might not have been a perfect thing for you to vote for.
It might have caused you a little trouble back in your district, you know, early on. I would, you know, meet with you and just tell you all the great things about the bill and and not speak to the negative things. And if you brought them up, I would try to change the subject and just go back to the positive things.
And what I actually learned, not just in the legislature, but elsewhere in my experience in civic life, is that you actually energize people. When you, number one, speak to the hard things. Mm-hmm. About the change initiative that you're pushing.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: That's speaking to loss, but you energize people even more.
When you welcome them, speaking about the hard things. Mm-hmm. And those like the 30,000, what we often do is wanna create the conditions for people to say what they love about what we're working on, but to create the conditions where we let people poke [00:09:00] holes. And our ideas. Right. And, and point out what's not right.
That can be hard. It can be vulnerable. It also energizes people in the direction of the very change we're after. Like people want to know you care.
Susan Kang: I love that. Thank, yeah. And they get to be, you know, they get to, in some ways my, you know, build it with you.
Ed O'Malley: Well, yeah. And part of the things we we're trying to help people understand in this chapter is that.
Leadership is always about like helping people come to grips with letting go of some things. Mm-hmm. And we're not gonna get, go from number 27 in the nation now to number one without having to rethink how we're doing things, which is gonna require us to, to, to change. And it's gonna be the type of change that brings in some.
Loss. So it's a, it's a heavy chapter. We'll try to make it a fun chapter as we get Jonathan Sled up here. I think it's time to bring him up to the, to the conversation and and get his experience working in Topeka and with his congregation and with his nonprofit sent into the conversation.
Susan Kang: All [00:10:00] right, let's get Jonathan in.
Good morning, Jonathan. How are you today?
Johnathan Sublet: Good morning, Susan. I'm doing well.
Susan Kang: I'm so excited to have you here.
Johnathan Sublet: Yeah, I'm excited to be back again.
Susan Kang: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming back. We really enjoyed our last episode with you and and I, you know, I'm excited to be doing this the day before.
A really special day for
Johnathan Sublet: you. Yeah, it is. It is Cake Day tomorrow, and so I'm uh, excited to be here also.
Susan Kang: Oh, that's great. Now, are you gonna be, bringing cupcakes to your office or anything like that?
Johnathan Sublet: Actually, I'm gonna sound strange, but rather than sweets, I mean, I'd rather somebody bring brisket.
Okay.
Ed O'Malley: For Jonathan's birthday, remember? Brisket.
Susan Kang: Wow. All right. I love
Johnathan Sublet: brisket
or ribeye
Susan Kang: Okay. Alright. So you're, yeah, you're, you're, I love it. Meat. Okay. That sounds really good. Okay, so what, so what do you think, you know, did you enjoy reading a chapter that we're gonna talk about today?
Johnathan Sublet: I did. And it's a very real chapter.
I wish. That before I got into leadership, somebody would've discussed this.
Ed O'Malley: Mm
Johnathan Sublet: ah,
Susan Kang: [00:11:00] yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that, that's really special right. To have that, have that sense.
Ed O'Malley: Yes. Real quick, just, just say, say, just say more about that. Say why, why,
Johnathan Sublet: normally you get into leadership because there's some leader that you are kind of drawn towards in a magnetic way because of the things that you see them doing and you think, it would be cool to be like that person, but what you don't see is all the stuff behind. Right. You see the high moments a lot of times and you might see a few of the tough moments, but you don't understand the anguish that comes with standing in those moments and having to lead people through those moments of loss.
Ed O'Malley: And like that and, and people's ability to do that. Is what makes or break them as somebody who's exercising leadership. Mm-hmm. You know, like we, we, we, we see all the positive stuff. Mm-hmm. We see all the, you know, the fun stuff. Mm-hmm. But whether or not we're actually successful at [00:12:00] mobilizing people to make progress on daunting challenges.
Yes. As much more related to our ability to kind of think about loss, help people through loss, you know, have compassion for people through the loss. Yes. Yeah. Tricky
Susan Kang: stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So what, so what was the thing that struck you as being, you know, really amazing or, you know, sort of like a light bulb moment as you were reading?
Johnathan Sublet: The thing that really struck me was when Ed was saying about how people don't fear change. This is one of the things that my team, we speak about all the time. There was a big broad study done on fear and they said that there's five universal fears and those five universal fears drive five universal needs.
For the first one is the fear of death. Hmm. Because people fear either they're death or their death or someone they love, it drives a need for security. The second one is the fear. The outsider. People fear being the outsider and they fear the new person being an outsider.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: And so that drives a need for [00:13:00] community.
And when people don't have healthy community, they'll ops for bad community. That's why people get into gangs. That's why people gossip at the water cooler in your workplace is because they don't have healthy community in the place and because they feel like the outsider either on a topic. Or on the team.
The third one is fear the future. And so because people fear what they don't know coming up they need, it drives a need for clarity.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: A leader doesn't always have to have the solution or answer, but they can always give clarity. A clarity is a superpower for a leader. And some that is saying, I don't have an answer for this right now, but I'll get back to you.
The fourth one is the fear of chaos. Yeah. That fear of chaos drives a need for authority. People wanna know who's in charge, who is, who is leading this ship. Yeah. And so being able to say, Hey, this is how we function. These are our values, these are our systems and our structure, and this is how we make decisions.
This is the level of authority you have. This is your box. That helps. And then the fifth one is the fear of insignificance. And that drives a need for [00:14:00] dignity. Everyone wants to feel like their life matters, their work matters, and so it drives a need for us to reinforce inherent dignity, value, and worth in every person.
The study said that when those needs are not met, anxiety goes up, and when anxiety goes up, behavior goes down, performance goes down, and motivation goes down. So if you start. Everything you do by addressing those five universal needs, it actually drives anxiety down. And you see anxiety go you see performance goes up, motivation goes up and your desired behavior go go up.
And if you can always walk into a room and start asking yourself what loss someone may be experiencing.
What need is going unmet and speak directly into that rather than skating over it. It helps you build the trust and the shared pool of meaning that's necessary to act on the big items.
Susan Kang: [00:15:00] So, so in your, in the work, in, in exercising leadership
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Susan Kang: In your space. I mean, you know, have you tell us a little bit about times when you felt like you were meeting resistance, but it was really about loss. I mean, I think you've already identified Yeah.
Johnathan Sublet: You
Susan Kang: situations.
Johnathan Sublet: So you experienced
Susan Kang: that? Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: I, so we built Topeka's first Net Zero Home. Right now we're building four more net zero homes.
What's
Susan Kang: a net Zero home?
Johnathan Sublet: Okay. That's good. Thank you for mm-hmm. Bring a net Zero Home is a home that produces as much energy it uses. One of the losses that we're experiencing right now is the cost of food is going up. The cost of housing and clothing and everything you have is going up. The cost of construction is going up.
I can't control that, but one of the ways I can help a family. Is reduced the amount that they spend on energy in their homes. Mm-hmm. So our net zero homes are slated to where you won't have an energy bill two thirds of the year. All right. So that's a tremendous saving.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Johnathan Sublet: Wow. The first home that we were gonna build a net zero home we were gonna build was actually on a [00:16:00] lot where someone was intoxicated.
Hit a tree that was in the middle of the lot and, and, and passed away tragically. Mm-hmm. It was before we started.
Ed O'Malley: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: The family for years had put memorials at that spot.
Ed O'Malley: Mm mm
Johnathan Sublet: When we bought the lot and said we were gonna build a home there. You can't build a house.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: Around the tree.
Ed O'Malley: Right. Okay. I'm seeing where the loss is coming here. Yeah. Keep going.
Johnathan Sublet: So, and, and, and so the family came to us and they said before this point, they were all on board for everything we were doing in the neighborhood. Yeah. And they were like, you can't build a house there.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: Because you're gonna cut down the tree.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: And we were like, we have to cut down the tree. And they didn't have the money to buy the lot. We didn't have another lot. We didn't have the money to buy another lot.
Susan Kang: Right.
Johnathan Sublet: And so we had to speak to, we know that this means something special and, and we hope that the family that moves into this place and gets a home is able.[00:17:00]
To bring life to this place that meant loss for you. And in some way, we hope that honors the legacy of the person that you're mourning their past.
Ed O'Malley: John, I gotta stop you right there. I love the story. It's a very powerful story. And I think what you just described is what we're talking about, like, what some people would do in that situation is try to double down on why net zero homes are so important.
And explain, you know, like they get all in the, the environmental language of environment, you know, of, of energy efficient homes. And, but what you did is, is you, you articulated something about the loss of their loved one. Yeah. You acknowledged the loss that they were feeling. Yeah. You acknowledged the loss they would be experiencing if the tree was gone and, and you talked about it in the context of what was.
In their heads and on their hearts, and it's an example of speaking to loss in a really [00:18:00] powerful way, I think.
Johnathan Sublet: Yeah. If I can share with you an example, I had to learn this, 'cause my background is engineering, so my deal is, is. What did the numbers say?
Susan Kang: Right?
Johnathan Sublet: And, but here's the deal. To take a reference from another part of my life, you, you shared that I was a pastor.
Moses. He spent the first 40 years of his life in Pharaoh's house learning governance of large groups of people and military rule. He spent the second 40 years of his life learning shepherding from his father-in-law, Jethro. Then he spent the third 40 years of his life. Doing this, leading the people through the wilderness.
Okay, so the people as they left Egypt, they had been slaves in a foreign land for 80 years or 480 years. They now had to go fight battles. What did they need? Military rule. And a leader who knew governance of large groups of people. The other thing is, is because they were slaves, they had to be told what to do all the time, and they got what, a day outside, a [00:19:00] week outside, and they start complaining about going back.
They needed somebody who knew how to shepherd people who had been traumatized. It took 80 years of training for 40 years of ministry for him. I've never let met a, a leader who has been naturally gifted in both of the first 40 since of 40 years of Moses' life. Most of us are really good at structures and systems are really good at relationships.
And when you see that, it takes time to grow in that other area. And for me. The shepherding piece is something that I'm continually to grow, to continue to grow in, and every profile I've had done on me, every coaching session has said, you need to lean more into this. You need to practice the three A's.
Affirm, appreciate, acknowledge. You need to lean into this more because you're really good at thinking systems, but you have to, it is not how much you care about somebody in your head and your heart. You have to outwardly express that.
Ed O'Malley: So I, what I hear you saying is that. Those. And I, and I I think I [00:20:00] hear you're saying, and I agree with it, is that those who, who frankly have more technical training.
More technical expertise, yes. Like the engineering, whether they're literally an engineer or an engineer like person. Yes. Right. That this idea of thinking about the loss
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: Understanding that loss. That people are going to feel. By the way, it doesn't matter if the loss is real or perceived. Yes. If, if it's perceived, it's real.
Like if, if they, if they think the loss, if they think it, it's gonna happen, it's gonna, it's real for them. Right. But so people who are more technical experts, probably this chapter is gonna be even harder with, and a lot of people. Frankly that are in the 30,000 have technical expertise.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: They got into that position 'cause they demonstrated incredible expertise in their craft.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: And now they're in a role of authority where they need to be able to know when to. When do I utilize the [00:21:00] technical expertise of my craft? And when do I lean into things like empathy? When do I lean into things like listening?
When do I lean into things like understanding the loss involved in the situation?
Johnathan Sublet: Yes. Can I, can I take you back o one to one thing you said there? What's the difference between a leader and a consultant?
Ed O'Malley: I don't know. I feel like there's a punchline here coming too.
Johnathan Sublet: No, so, so like, here's the deal. For instance,
my wife is a therapist. All right. My wife is. Phenomenal at what she does. But she is more naturally crafted towards the relational side.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: The leadership structures and everything else. She's grown incredibly, she's honored this year as a part of leadership, greater Topeka, but that's not her natural gifting.
And so she can really tell you, Hey, developing that therapy plan in different things of that nature. That's what you do. Right, but the we're gonna set up systems for a whole organization or a whole pillar of organization that is not her natural side. Now she's grown in that and leaning that and she'll tell you that, and most of the time when you top out [00:22:00] in that area and you just stay kind of a subject matter expert in just what you do,
Susan Kang: mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: You become a consultant.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: When you get to a point where you are more thinking about systems. You may be put in leadership positions over an organization, but that don't really mean that you know how to make that organization successful because you don't know how to do the programming side of it, and you need both.
And so when you're in that, you have to see how to marry those two. You need that person that's really passionate about the programming side on your team to help inform you when you are more processed and system structured to help you stay human. Because that's the danger is when you're just really good at systems is you become a robot and you don't think about people and, and you, you do more harm than you do good.
And then over here you can do more harm than good because you build systems that are unsustainable and, and therefore you don't have the longevity that's needed. For instance, [00:23:00] we've discovered now through data that. Month nine of mental health therapy for people that are in our practices. Mm-hmm. That's when they see a severe drop in anxiety, depression, those things.
At month six is when we see a severe drop in suicidal thoughts and days of, of school and work that's missed because of suicidal ideologies and ideation. And so we've seen that now through data. Right. And so we've had to put those two sides of. We need to study this data over here and I'm really caring about the person together to find that kind of solution and how to work with families.
Susan Kang: So for a lot of people who are in the 30,000, right, I think that the default might be. Leading with their head.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Susan Kang: Right. Sometimes you need to lead with your heart.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Susan Kang: And that is, that's one way that you can speak to loss.
Ed O'Malley: And I think though, it requires also knowing what's in the hearts of other people like we mm-hmm.
In, in the early days of the Kansas Leadership Center, a mistake we made was. [00:24:00] Part of the framework was speak from the heart.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: And what that led to was a lot of mushy speechifying Okay. By people. Mm-hmm. And what we eventually started playing with was, it's no speak to the heart. Mm.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: You know, like, it's not about your heart.
It's about their heart. It's, it's the
Johnathan Sublet: why.
Ed O'Malley: It's the why. And so, one thing I wanna play with a little bit is I think the story about. The family who lost a loved one in the crash at the tree on the property is a really great story. And I, I want to try to play with it as a metaphor.
Johnathan Sublet: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: And as we think about Kansas improving health capital H Health,
Johnathan Sublet: yes.
Ed O'Malley: What are the corollaries. Yes. From that story to Kansas, leaving the nation in health. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, what are the, the losses that people are gonna feel, might not feel as deeply as losing a loved one, but are gonna feel this loyalty, this affinity, this [00:25:00] passion for the way things.
Currently are. Yes. And we're we meaning people in the 30,000 who are trying to instigate this change are suggesting we gotta change? Yes. Any ideas on, and I I, I, I, I've never thought about this question before, so I'm asking it in real time to myself and to you all, but I think it would be helpful for our listeners.
Johnathan Sublet: Yeah. I feel like some of it is we're gonna have to slay some golden calves.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah.
Johnathan Sublet: Um, And when I, when I say that, we are a VI say we, last year I started calling myself a Kansan and I went through leadership, Kansas love, and I became a Kansas. I love it.
Ed O'Malley: I love it. You're no longer
Johnathan Sublet: a Texan. And we are a, a blessed state that has this diversity of landscapes.
We have urban centers like Wichita and Topeka and Kansas City Manhattan, and we also have rural. And we've often thought of those in two different buckets. But when you really study our, our under-resourced urban environments and our rural environments, 80 to 75% of what they face are the same [00:26:00] issue.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. Same thing.
Johnathan Sublet: And, and we have to tear that wall down. But part of it, the loss is the identity of identifying myself if my wife is from rural Kansas and identifying like, this is who we are. Yeah. We're, we're, we're not those city folks. This is who we are. And then growing up in the urban center, we're not those country folks.
This is who we are. And, but getting to the point of we're all threads in the same cloth that makes up who Kansas is.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. And people love their identity. Right. So earlier you talked about like. People crave being significant.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: Right? They fear insignificance.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: And so one of the things I just hear you saying is that a, a loss, an example of a loss related to leading the nation in health might be right now there are urban there are people working on urban health and their people working on rural health, and they might have to lose
the idea that what they are [00:27:00] working on is a hundred percent unique to them.
Johnathan Sublet: Can I, so I'm on the transdisciplinary, like the K State transdisciplinary housing team for the state, and we had several virtual meetings and then for the first time we met at K State Salina a couple of weeks ago. And it was great to be in the room, you know, when you've been a part of anything like that.
In, in the trust our building. But at the end, we still hadn't got to one idea that we were gonna work on together. And so I, I spoke into the space and I said, we need to get to one thing that we work on together. And I want you to hear me say, I'm willing for my thing not to be the thing we work on first.
And I trust that this team cares about me enough and my neighborhood enough that will eventually get to my thing. But I want you to know anything I have at my disposal for whatever your thing is. I'm willing to give it for this cause if that helps us build more trust.
Ed O'Malley: You know, in in the book we, we talk about that we need people to understand that one of the losses is gonna be a loss of [00:28:00] loyalty to your preferred strategy.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: You know, but, and a lot of us get, actually literally get paid to advance our preferred strategy. But we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to. We,
Johnathan Sublet: we have to
Ed O'Malley: think coalesce. We're gonna have to,
Johnathan Sublet: we have to think 401k and not day trading. And, and, and that's great. And so that, that's what gets us a lot of times.
But if you look at the study over the last several years, there's been this huge uptick in lotto and lottery playing. Why do people play the lotto in the lottery is because they have lost hope. And so they are, they're swinging for the fences and they're thinking, this is my, my only way out is if the miracle happens.
And so we have to restore trust in the process, whether it's going to number one in health and saying bunts and singles, I'm gonna do this small thing consistently at a very high level, and it's going to compound interest is one of the most powerful forces in the world. And, and the sa and that compound interest [00:29:00] works in.
In health, also in the Big H Health. And if we can stack those wins, then we can get where we need to be. And so we have to stop playing a lotto, so, so to speak. And that means investing in somebody else's strategy. And seeing it forward and saying, I'm gonna help with that. Even if I don't understand totally everything about it to begin with.
I'm gonna give it time and I'm gonna let that bear out because the trust that's built. Out of that, that combined effort is gonna help us get further to where we want to go.
Susan Kang: Yeah. I love the short term, long term.
Differentiation. Right. And, you know, winning a couple of battles here doesn't mean we're gonna, you know, win win the war.
Yes. You know, for this is closing the health gap. Yes. Is, is a long road.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes
Susan Kang: to Right. Ed, the other thing that you mentioned in the book is, you know, sort of this loss, of loss of ability, ability to prioritize everything.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Susan Kang: So when you're saying yes to concentrating on closing the health gap Yes.
That also means saying no to some other things that might be equally [00:30:00] important
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Susan Kang: In your life.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Susan Kang: You know, I mean, so that, that, that's a thing.
Johnathan Sublet: Yeah. So, for, I, my three kids we foster to adopt. Okay. A study that me and my wife, we went to a learning a class that said, when you have kids that have trauma in their background, high A scores, they need protein and water on a certain interval to help them with emotional regulation.
Okay. My kids teachers said, Hey, they eat lunch really early this year. So every month my wife and I send snacks. Protein, meat sticks, all those different things. Cheese sticks to their class every month. And my son said, Hey dad. You're the only parent that buys snacks for the class. And I said, well, you know, we've, we've been blessed with a little bit more than some of our neighbors and so we can do that.
And he said, well, everybody else in class has cell phones and PS fives and different things of that nature, and we don't have any of that at home. And I said, well,
Susan Kang: I know where this is going. [00:31:00]
Johnathan Sublet: I said, that's a value for them. I said, but the money that we would normally spend on that, you know, do, do you enjoy the trips we go on?
And he's like, yes, I enjoy that a lot more than I think I would a video game. And all the deals we, we have, we prioritized experiences in our family over items in our family. And so we've made that trade off. And I had to speak to my kids about and he's like, I'm glad that we also have the money. To be able to buy snacks for our classroom.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: And so I had, I, I had to express this is the trade off that we have consciously made as a family. So this makes my Yes, really easy to buying snacks and to prioritizing family trips because I have said no to these things over here. You have to be intentional. When I do marital counseling, my whole goal is to get couples to discuss as many items that they may argue about during their marriage and make a pre-decision.
Before they're in the heat of an argument about how they're gonna [00:32:00] decide that later on. And I said, if you can do that, then you've already predecided and then you don't have to argue about it later on.
Ed O'Malley: One thing that I'm thinking about is this idea of. Prioritization, right? Yes. So Susan, you brought up the, you know, the loss of being able to do everything. Mm-hmm. How did we word it in the book? It was something like the loss of the ability to prioritize everything.
Susan Kang: Everything, yeah.
Ed O'Malley: You know, I mean, one way to think about it is there are 53 measures inside America's Health rankings. We can't focus on all 53 at once.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes,
Ed O'Malley: right. We as the Kansas Health Foundation, or we as a, as a growing kind of network of, of informal coalition working on the health rankings, and it's hard to say.
You know what? We're going to prioritize this and not this. And what ha So you've heard the 30,000 When it comes to a topic like health, there's pressure to prioritize everything. Mm-hmm.
Johnathan Sublet: Can I tell you, this is where my engineering comes in.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah.
Johnathan Sublet: So I learned six Sigma method, problem solving methodology.
Mm-hmm. [00:33:00] The thing that Six Sigma does is it teach, you, gather data, then it teaches you where to put your resources. To make the largest impact towards the outcome that you wanna see. Mm-hmm. And it teaches you also that when do you get to a point where putting any more in that area gives you diminishing returns?
Mm-hmm. So that's what sent, we like to say sent is a person-centered, but data-driven organization that has dynamic programming on a short feedback loop. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and so what we try to look at is, for instance we really wanna do housing, but what's killing a lot of affordable housing developers is the cost of housing.
But so what they do is they try to go out and find more money to subsidize more housing. That's not the answer. I believe one of the, the, the big initiatives from KHF is the answer. We have to get people more economically mobile so they can afford to hou what housing really costs. So that meant we had to slow down.
Some on developing housing so that we can develop more [00:34:00] workforce apprenticeships and do more credential stacking in our neighborhoods so that people actually had the money to do that, to also be able to afford food, and that's gonna decrease food insecurity. So we said, rather than doing. More resources into our food pantry and trying to grow our capacity of our food pantry and more resources and all these downstream individualistic things.
We were gonna invest in the upstream systemic thing of 72% of my neighborhood who works, works in retail and food jobs, and we gotta get 'em out of that so that they can have jobs that really give a living wage that allow them to not need the pantry, to not need subsidized housing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And different things of that nature.
Susan Kang: Once again, our time has flown by. Ed, you,
Ed O'Malley: I, I know you're about to close this. Yeah. I wanna try to land One thing that just popped my head based on what you're saying, Jonathan, before Susan, you, you guide us to a finish here and what, what I'm finding myself thinking about is to, to climb the health rankings.
I think everybody would [00:35:00] agree. We're gonna have to prioritize. We just can't, like, Hey, we'll work on any health thing and like if we wanna climb the health rankings as a state,
Johnathan Sublet: yes,
Ed O'Malley: we, and I don't just mean state government, I mean like all of us who care are gonna have to prioritize the health initiatives we work on.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: To prioritize. Certain things means to deprioritize other things.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: To in essence, say these things get the priority.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: These things don't, which is loss.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: The people who care about those things yes. Will experience loss at least in the short term,
Johnathan Sublet: yes.
Ed O'Malley: If not in the long term, and. Our ability as Kansans who are working to help us climb the health rankings, our ability to understand that when we prioritize we are deprioritizing.
Yes. When we prioritize, we are. In essence, creating loss.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: Our ability to speak to that loss and let [00:36:00] others speak about that loss is gonna be absolutely critical. Jonathan, thanks for this conversation. Susan, I know you got a final thing you want us to talk
Susan Kang: about, right? So, you know, we end our episodes by, you know, talking about what our biggest takeaways are, right?
Yes. And and what we might encourage our listeners to do. So I, my biggest takeaway well actually there are so many, but really I'm gonna focus on that. Paradox of making more progress by acknowledging and talking to loss and also letting loss speak. Yes. And so that's what I encourage our listeners to do and also what you, what you just heard Ed say in doing that, there is also this, you know, if you're prioritizing health, there's other things that you're gonna be.
Deprioritizing and which also involves loss, right? Yes. So I just think, I mean, so that's, that's a big takeaway for me. And what about for you, Jonathan?
Johnathan Sublet: I, for me, the big takeaway was this, this chapter was a reminder that circumstantial loss does not become an equivalent for relational loss. It doesn't have to become, and as a leader, [00:37:00] if we're gonna continue to lead, then we have to not let tho that false equivalence.
Live in our hearts and our heads.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Johnathan Sublet: Thank
Ed O'Malley: you for, for me, Jonathan. You are known for great one-liners, and the last time you were with us, you, you talked about you know, deeper punches.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: I've been thinking about that ever since.
The thing you said this time that's gonna stick with me is that we need to be. Focus more on a 401k rather than day trading.
Johnathan Sublet: Yes.
Ed O'Malley: And there's losses involved with both those modes of operating. Right. So people who invest in a 401k Yes. Have they experience loss? People who invest in day trading experience loss?
Johnathan Sublet: Yes. And.
Ed O'Malley: My, my sense though is that those who are focused on the 401k style of building wealth,
Johnathan Sublet: yes.
Ed O'Malley: They have a relationship with loss where they understand it's necessary. Yes, they understand there'll be losses, yes. But in the end. [00:38:00] If we manage this well,
Johnathan Sublet: yes,
Ed O'Malley: the losses will be overshadowed by the game, and I think that's what I'm thinking about today.
Thanks for the great conversation. I know that we can each do our part and so many others who are part of this effort to help Kansas lead the nation in health and making sure we're taking a 401k style. Mindset to how we understand the losses we're gonna have to take and get to the game. Jonathan, you'll be back with us again.
On chapter 19, we'll be talking about leveraging economic forces and I'm so excited to get into your business brain on how scent has done that. Yes. So more to come on that. Thank you for joining us.
Johnathan Sublet: Thank you,
Ed O'Malley: and we will be. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you. We'll be for our next episode. In a few weeks, we'll be talking about the risk involved with leadership.
That is the perfect episode to follow, talking about loss. So thanks everybody for joining us, Susan. We'll see you next time.
Susan Kang: Thank you.
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