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Office Talk UK is a fortnightly podcast hosted by Dave Sharp, and a great excuse for him to have conversations with leading UK architects about their approach to business, marketing, communications and brand strategy.
Office Talk has been shortlisted for the 2023 ArchiTeam Awards for Innovation & Contribution to Architecture, and the 2022 Archiboo Awards for Best Podcast.
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp dot com to learn more, or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today is Alex Eli, the director of May Architects, a sterling prize winning London based practice known for their approach to sustainable, resilient, and socially conscious architecture and urbanism. In this episode, Alex and I discussed the significance of winning the Sterling Prize in 2023 and how its impact on the practice has gone far beyond the architecture industry.
Dave Sharp:Why having a clear mission statement and a set of values that employees can identify with has made it so much easier for them to consistently communicate those values to the outside world. We looked at the importance of undertaking post occupancy studies of completed projects and why these insights can be so valuable to future clients and projects. We discussed how collaborating with larger practices in the early days of the studio gave them the experience needed to undertake much larger projects and provide their clients with a better mix of ideas and design outcomes. And finally, we looked at how to find the right balance between photography that highlights the architectural and spatial qualities of a building versus the experiences and enjoyment of end users occupying and using the space. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Alex Eli of MIE Architects.
Dave Sharp:Tell us a story about, what the last couple of weeks have been like, Alex.
Alex Ely:Oh, it's been a real thrill to to win the sterling prize. It is, as you know, the the most highly respected award in the UK for architecture. And it's it goes to projects that go through a lot of scrutiny. It has to get through 3 rounds of judging, initially, a regional award, then a national award, and and then it's a very high level panel this year chaired by Ellen Van Loon from EMA who visited the building. And, for those who don't know, we won it as a sterling prize with a building called the John Moreton Centre, which is this wonderful daycare center we designed for an arms house down in, Southeast London.
Alex Ely:And arms houses have been going for centuries, as a way of providing affordable, care homes for those, in financial need at the end of their or in their later life. So we've got a lot of charities that provide brilliant, support to those in their later life. And the John Moreton, center was built for Moreton College, which was built in 16/95. The actual original almshouse is attributed to Christopher Wren, so no pressure there in terms of building in in the setting of a beautiful kind of Christopher Wren crotch wrangle. The sort of significance of winning it, I think is, twofold.
Alex Ely:1, for the practice, I think it really validates our the the purpose of the practice and what I set out to achieve, and I hope we'll explore that further. But also recognizing a sector that is often overlooked and certainly not a place where good architecture typically is conducted. Our health and care sector is, not well invested in and architecture, which we know can really kind of improve quality of life, health, and well-being, is sadly a good architecture is not very common in that sector.
Dave Sharp:And it's so good with a prize like the Sterling prize because it's one of those things that goes a bit beyond the industry, doesn't it? So if you wanna draw attention to a particular area or sector, it's kind of a really great way to do it, isn't it?
Alex Ely:Yeah. And I think the REBA, even in their shortlist actually, made it very clear that they were focused on buildings that served a common good, that, were very much about the communities that they're housing, accommodating, providing, a need for. And, so the amazing shortlist of schemes we're up against included, university building up in Warwick, some social housing with a wonderful community center. There was the Courtauld Institute, an amazing gallery in central London. So there are there are sort of a number of public buildings, civic buildings, social infrastructure buildings, and I think it came across very clearly in, my work Oki's, comments, the the president of the ROPA, that, this year was about recognizing projects that so principally served a social purpose.
Dave Sharp:Which is something that you really focused the practice on since the practice began, right, in terms of what you put forward as the positioning of the practice. I mean, how do you sort of describe it? I think on the website, it's sort of uplifting the human spirit and that sort of thing. But do you feel like that mission for the Sterling Prize, that really beautifully aligned with what your practice is built on as a as a foundation. Right?
Alex Ely:That's right. I set up the practice 22 years ago, very much with a focus on doing social and public projects, principally housing. And I think any business needs a mission. It needs a set of values, and really setting out something that that the business strives for and that everyone can align behind as a business and everyone working in the business can identify with and feel, that they're part of that mission or that purpose. So uplifting the human spirit is certainly a a sort of high level ambition, but there's a danger that that, can be seen as a little bit generic.
Alex Ely:And I think, for us, the the detail the the sort of detail behind that, which is about really try trying to create buildings that create the conditions for kind of well-being, for improving social equity, in the case of John Moreton Center, reducing loneliness, increasing, social bonds and connections between the residents. And architecture can really enable that. It has the amazing ability to, you know, as as our mission statement says, uplift the human spirit. And but we like to get into the depth of what that really means, whether that's through research, whether that's through understanding our sector, through consulting with the residents to really identify their needs, and also doing post occupancy to know that we've, delivered on that purpose.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. At Office Dave Sharp, we take a longer term approach to strategy, marketing, and brand definition. Working exclusively with established local and global architecture practices, we apply our structured and in-depth process to develop thoughtful brand strategies and a considered 12 month marketing plan for those looking to reflect on the direction of their business. By placing a stronger focus on highly crafted marketing and communications, and elevating the quality of your brand elements, including messaging, visuals, media, and more, we're able to provide you with research driven methodologies that are backed by measurable outcomes. This style of thinking and working doesn't just consider your practice's impact and purpose beyond tomorrow.
Dave Sharp:It provides a thoughtful approach for your marketing that focuses on quality, not quantity. So for more information or to book a consultation, simply visit office davesharp.com. You've really found that there actually needs to be key ways of demonstrating that agenda or that purpose. Right? As you're saying, it's something that a lot of practices can say, particularly, I guess, when they're getting signs from the market, from the Sterling prize, that that's the objective of a lot of those recognition channels.
Dave Sharp:That's what they're looking for. It does put a pressure on other practices, a good pressure of, obviously, but for them to go, oh, let's just sort of put that on as a bit of a label that we're gonna subscribe to and advocate for, but it might just be superficial. But I guess, like, it's interesting to maybe talk about what some of those elements are in a bit more detail that have become parts of the process that have developed over time. And I think it does take a long time to develop a positioning, a proper one, doesn't it, and a sort of a purpose.
Alex Ely:Yeah, it really does. I think, initially, it just came out my own convictions and my own personal ethos and, interests. But as a business grows, you realize you have to articulate those much more clearly for the team around you. And as colleagues come and go, you're trying to not just create a business with a very clear purpose that new colleagues want to join because part of the goal of growing a business is attracting really good talent. And I think the clearer a business is about that mission, the better the talent that comes.
Alex Ely:But also once colleagues are here and, you know, I've got colleagues who've been here for over a decade and others who are newer, if they really understand not just the mission, but also how you go about achieving that, then it helps us all, follow the same path. I recognize that in the body of work we've built and there's a range of interests that we have, and they range from kind of big scale master planning and urban design through to kind of beautiful small scaled social infrastructure buildings. I think the common bond between all those projects was, threefold. It was around the kind of social ambition of the project about creating very inclusive, welcoming places, but importantly, with the people who use our buildings. So we're privileged often to be working with, the communities that we're serving.
Alex Ely:Sustainable, and I know that's a goal of every business these days. But, for us, it was very much, you know, we're, I suppose, evolving at a time when it is becoming at the forefront of everyone's, minds. So responding positively to the climate emergency, designing resilient and low carbon architecture, but also places. And that's very much part of the mass planning work is about designing sustainable neighborhoods. And then the third aspect is spatial, and a lot of our work is housing.
Alex Ely:And I think what I saw and I I used to work for the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment and led their housing and sustainable communities work. We just saw how impoverished a lot of our housing was in the UK, and I mean, impoverished in a design sense, in a sort of generosity sense, and in an architectural sense. And for me, a lot of that comes down to the interior spatial qualities. And so we're trying to create housing and other building types that go beyond conventional thinking, really making imaginative affordable spaces and really that exceeded people's expectations, but also come back to that point about creating spaces that improve quality of life and, health and well-being.
Dave Sharp:I'm interested in a couple of aspects of that really clearly structured agenda that you're advocating for. Do you feel that that in the way that you developed that as a practice, it was more of an exercise of thinking through that idea and that language and that structure of 3 things and then making it become reality and then act having a plan and then sort of bringing it to fruition, or is it more of a reflection on what you've done as a team and thinking about what's the clearest way to communicate this work that we do as we look back?
Alex Ely:So it's come out of a reflection of what the common ground between our projects was. We've just published a book called towards a resilient architecture that seeks to illustrate that thinking through the built work we've done. And it's not to say that every building fulfills all those three ambitions, but I think there's the DNA in all of them to, to bring focus to those ambitions. So in terms of forward looking perspective, we've now used it as a means of structuring our conversation in the office, our design reviews, our our technical reviews, our, environmental reviews, but also our the way we're governing our business. We're looking to become a b corp, which is about balancing profit with people and the planet, and that very much aligns with that that social agenda.
Alex Ely:So going forward, we've set up sort of 3 governance or elements of governance within the business. We have each of those principles, social, sustainable, and spatial, have translated into a, like, an office or studio teams element. So we have a May 0 team and everyone in the business belongs to one of these teams. So May 0, everyone in that team helps promote that agenda and is is the kind of intelligence, let's say, between us delivery about us delivering sustainable architectures. So they'll do the research.
Alex Ely:They do the evaluation. They do manage the CPDs. They'll technically review schemes. May plus is our studio team that's really about the spatial. It's about us developing exemplary, housing and becoming a leader in low cost, high quality housing, but also really understanding the sort of DNA genetic sequence for good housing.
Alex Ely:So using research, POE data, and so on. And then the third is maybe, and the maybe team are really about, building our, social value and social capital for clients, helping us become a b corp. And and that's really helped reckon helped our team recognize that their role is more than just contributing to projects. It's about contributing to the development of the practice as well.
Dave Sharp:So what's the structure of how those teams work? Is it just sort of an informal thing where everyone's kind of a member of it and then they have a Microsoft Teams channel or something? Or is it or is it like we have our quarterly kind of we're the committee on May 0. We have our meeting. We take minutes.
Dave Sharp:How does it operate?
Alex Ely:It's both of those. So we set out annual objectives. Start of the year, we each team sets out objectives. So it might be, for example, undertaking a certain number of post occupancy evaluation assessments. It might be, publishing a an internal pamphlet on, a certain aspect of sustainable design.
Alex Ely:And, we monitor those objectives quarterly, but also there are, as you say, the sort of classic, chat channels where we're sharing knowledge. People are stuff that people are reading in journals or having just been to CPD events and so on. And and, also, it's important that it's not a siloed, thing. So although everyone sits in one of those teams, we make sure that our design reviews, address all three aspects. And the office design review is open for everyone, the the full we're we're in a team of 20, but everyone attends and everyone is welcome to contribute.
Alex Ely:And there's also a way of reinforcing that the conversation around those, principles.
Dave Sharp:In terms of hearing you describe it, Alex, how you use your purpose and purpose related governance structures, it seems to be a lot to do with the company culture, a lot to do with recruitment, encouraging the right sort of people to work for the practice. It doesn't even seem like the outward facing aspect of it is even sort of top 4, top 5 concerns on the list in terms of the role of it, which I think is really nice. But is that kind of the way that you see it?
Alex Ely:Maybe that's where it started, and it certainly helps us, strategize and review and and push forward our work. I think as we've grown, you know, I I really admire practices smaller practices where the founding partner has a very strong hold on every project, and they're much more didactic. And that partner will really kind of shape every project and, interrogate and invest their thinking in every detail. But I suppose the avenue we've gone down of doing master planning and housing has led us to grow in a way that I can't, you know, be that closely involved in every project, but I do want to to sort of govern the design thinking and design intelligence. But articulating our purpose and setting out those principles allows internally everyone to, support and drive the design thinking of the business.
Alex Ely:We do declare very clearly on our website that that's our principles and our purpose. The book towards a resilient architecture, again, is out there for, our clients, for, an audience in the industry to recognize that that's what we are about.
Dave Sharp:On the public side of things, articulating that purpose externally, and I think the things like it kind of coming and crystallizing in the format of a book, which is such an accessible way of putting that information out there, but also the way you've chosen to name the different aspects of it for your website, for example, is really interesting. Like, May 0 is really cool. DNA genetic sequence for good housing. Like, there's some really, really interesting the way that you've packaged up these components or these sort of internal branches of the business in a way that I think makes them a lot easier to sort of understand and take on board. Those public clients that you're speaking about, do you feel like they're pretty interested in that stuff that you're doing internally and and they engage with that?
Dave Sharp:Like, do you think that that's something that they take an interest in when they're considering you guys for projects? And do you put that information forward in your tenders or your bids?
Alex Ely:We do. It's, I think it's a way of positioning ourselves and and sort of offering added value. So, for example, as well as putting forward a project team where we'll identify the best people in the business who fit that particular brief in terms of their experience. We also, indicate that the client will benefit from reviews from each of those groups. So we see it as a way of, demonstrating that their to clients that they're getting more than just a project team there to deliver their project.
Alex Ely:They're getting the benefit of the wider intelligence and knowledge of their business.
Dave Sharp:That's interesting, isn't it? Because at the end of the day, it's still your 20 employees. They're all working together. They're all one company, but creating those different units that have this sort of accountability and oversight of the work that each is doing, those extra efforts or those extra specialized techniques that they each kind of bring to the project. I think it's really interesting.
Dave Sharp:I wonder the clients in terms of how they are viewing that, seeing that value add, I suppose to them, are they interested perhaps in the sort of the intellectual property and the sort of unique processes that that have developed within your studio? Because I think it's kind of interesting, not exactly a straightforward way of responding to their project or their brief. The way you describe it, it does seem a little elaborate in some senses, but, but they're viewing that as that's great. That's that's an interesting benefit because there's these real specialized expertise within the within the practice.
Alex Ely:To to a degree. I think also, though, we always present evidence and social proof that we're delivering on those principles. So, for example, our Agar Grove, estate regeneration scheme for the London Borough of Camden is, a very large housing scheme delivering 50% affordable housing and designed to pass it house, certified standard. And we've now delivered that scheme, and we have that as evidence that we can deliver on the, low operational carbon objective. But, also, one of the goals of that project was to reduce fuel poverty amongst the very, poor in society who are being housed in that project.
Alex Ely:And so there is adding social value that is of benefit to client. Or at the John Morton Center that, won the Sterling prize, we're able to we've done post occupancy to, which has revealed that actually residents are, getting out more. They're using, the facilities more than they might have imagined they they would. They're connecting and feeling, less isolated, less lonely. So we're able to provide through the built work evidence that actually our purpose and our mission is is being delivered and that it isn't just sitting there as a a form of words or a sort of theory.
Dave Sharp:Whenever I've been doing research with clients that are working primarily with public organizations and frameworks and things like that. I'll speak to the people in charge of those frameworks, and they are so evidence that they're looking for evidence. They're looking for how did the architect do this for this client in this situation with this community? What did they achieve? What was the result?
Dave Sharp:They really wanna know the the sort of the quite granular details. I found that they're not big fans of architects being very mysterious with no transparency and not being convinced by that quite granular detail about the work and which leads me to, like, your point about evidence and post occupancy and so on. I know that that's extremely common for practices that work in your sector or your area of the built environment these days. Post occupancy is a big priority, but I've noticed that it really hasn't caught on amongst small practices at all who are generally primarily residentially focused. And they don't do any form of post occupancy apart from the photo shoot.
Dave Sharp:You know, that's probably the only time they come back to it. And when I see them sort of aspiring to start moving into public work and they don't have much rigor around demonstrating evidence of the success of their work socially, environmentally, and so on. And I'm just curious in your thoughts on the role of that post occupancy side of things, how you've developed that process, and where that kind of came from.
Alex Ely:It's relatively new for us, I'll be honest. The RIBA in their work stages, identify a post construction stage for, helping users settle into the building, but also evaluate the the building. But it's often not included in typical scope services. And, actually, the the post occupancy we've been doing has been off our own backs, and, it'd be nice to sort of embed it in a into a contract and actually be commissioned for it because it's not just a value to us. It's a value to our our clients as well.
Alex Ely:Because the the hope is that, you know, the knowledge we glean and gather is fed into the next brief and helps improve the next project. I think the difficulty with, smaller businesses and businesses, doing more smaller private work is that, you know, the pressure is always on to move and it actually goes for us as well. The pressure is always on to move on to the next job. And the amount of work we can afford to do, outside a a fee paying commission is limited. So but we see it as a way of hopefully, being more efficient on the next project.
Alex Ely:So ideally, that knowledge gained is actually time saved in the future. But the DNA genetic sequence, so I think for us is about, yeah, building on that post occupancy knowledge, helping us, create better layouts and plans and and sections and and designs for houses. But, also, I think the future for architecture is very much around the world of AI. That is going to demand a much greater and better library of resource to draw from. So, you know, I'm starting to tentatively get into that world and and work with, very intelligent, clever, software, people who, who can help us on that path.
Alex Ely:But we're interested in rather than just, I think, danger with AI is you throw the net out and you kind of hope to see what comes back based on what's on the Internet or on the World Wide Web. Whereas, actually, if we can be in control of, the components or the data that's being used, then, hopefully, we can use it for the good and and for for creating better, designs and and layouts.
Dave Sharp:Talking about this setting ambitious goals around things like the DNA genetic sequence for good housing. And regardless of whether or not, I suppose, like, AI has an aspect on it. I do like the idea that as a practice, you conduct this research process and collect this mountain of data and information from your projects, that becomes something that I think I'm probably looking at it, I suppose, from that new business standpoint, but something you can point to that says, hey. We're actually working off this mountain of research and this information that is solid, and it's informing the decisions that we make going forward. I feel like that really does inspire confidence versus somebody who says, well, we just sort of intuitively do things and occasionally it it's nice.
Dave Sharp:And, and let us do the next, like, let us do your project. You know what I mean? It's, it's a pretty smart investment. I was interested that it's something that you do off your own back. And I think it makes sense that one day that could be seen as part of the standard process, which would be quite, quite powerful, really.
Alex Ely:Well, there's another aspect to it. So I think, we're not we've not produced enough to have a really sort of strong body of evidence of post occupancy about it, but we're building on that. But the other area that I think feeds into this conversation that we're very involved in, 2 things is one is teaching, and the other is, working with government. I've always been interested in how the architect can influence the built environment beyond the projects that they're actually working on. So our built output is is is small.
Alex Ely:And but, actually, our influence on housing has been enormous. And, specifically, we were commissioned by the mayor of London to write his housing standards and guidance. And that set out new, very specific, space standards for housing, standards around outdoor amenity space, ideas around daylight and sunlight, quality of public realm, accessibility, and a range of factors that now every housing scheme in London is designed to. And then the other aspect, the teaching aspect, I suppose, is a bit more of sort of intellectual inquiry, and perhaps more focused on creativity. So if if the mural work is about, setting a baseline for what is good housing, Our teaching work is is more exploratory.
Alex Ely:It's about questioning and kind of forward thinking and, exploring the future of housing. So, through that teaching, we've always focused on housing each year. And we have a contingent of postgraduate students around 20, typically. We set the question that might be around retrofit, for example, which is becoming a big priority, or it might be around, intergenerational housing or or some of the sort of pressing needs designing for later life, for example. And through that work, we've the students have created these kind of wonderful, exploratory, innovative solutions for housing that we share with the practice.
Alex Ely:And often, my colleagues in the practice have come through our teach have arrived at us through our teaching unit. So, you know, I've managed to recruit my best students, on the back of teaching.
Dave Sharp:So much knowledge and research constantly being embedded and embedded and embedded. You know, and that's what that's the impression that I get. It seems like one of those things that is a particular strength of your practice that's created this sort of feedback loop that's continued to develop and develop and develop and help to kind of get towards the level that you're at at the moment. And I just sort of wonder about how other practices might be able to go about adopting more of that expertise, knowledge based process, if they're not already kind of making that part of their culture, but they're interested in it, they see the value of it. I suppose what's the way to kind of get into that or to start to make that part of the way that you operate as an architecture practice?
Alex Ely:Well, I suppose probably common to all architects, we're interested in moving forward and learning and progressing and developing our thinking as designers. And I suppose for us, the teaching, the advocacy, and the research is is about that. Of course, you could just do that in projects. But for us, one one informs the other and vice versa. But even those practices who aren't necessarily working for government or, its agencies, I think can influence that conversation, whether that's through promoting the ideas in their work, whether it's about talking at conferences and promoting their thinking, whether it's about just submitting for awards and getting that recognition.
Alex Ely:Because that recognition isn't just about a pat on the back for the practice itself. I think it's also a way of for us, and certainly in our case, putting projects out there in the world that we're proud of, that we think can offer some lessons. And that sounds a bit possibly, a bit pompous. But, actually, we've I suppose the point is we've got something to say as a practice, and we want to share that. And if others, are inspired by that, great.
Alex Ely:If others question it and say we can do better, even better. It's about building up a collective body of knowledge, isn't it? And and designing for specific needs, like the vulnerable, the infirm, I think, is one aspect. But, actually, designing for, addressing climate change is a collective problem, and we've got to be more open and transparent about what we're doing and and what we're learning. So towards a resilient architecture is both a call to arms to the profession, and it's filled with examples.
Alex Ely:But they're not best not necessarily best practice examples. They're examples that we've learned, you know, good things and bad things. We've learned what not to do in future and what we should be doing in future. So I see all those projects as being, you know, a body of knowledge that we can draw the best from and say each project is about distilling down the best ideas, and helping us move forward. And I think something like dealing with climate change, if we can record and evaluate better through carbon calculations, through, posting that data publishing that data, we all benefit.
Alex Ely:We all learn because we're all on this journey to try and reduce, the environmental impact of our our buildings, where the construction industry is one of the biggest polluters and biggest contributors to, the climate crisis. And we've gotta do something quickly. You know? This isn't stuff that can wait. So the more we share that knowledge, the the more likely we are to, overcome some of the problems and challenges.
Dave Sharp:I guess that idea of independently publishing what you're doing or putting a book together, for example, is an absolutely gargantuan exercise, and that's not a very everyday thing for for practices to do that. Of course, like, you know, studios will do a sort of a monograph of reflecting back on 40 years of their work or whatever, but to publish something that feels like not a sort of one and done publication, like, that's the book that represents the studio for the rest of history, but it's about getting that knowledge out there because there's a sort of a sense of urgency to that knowledge being shared that we wanna be more constantly contributing the information that we're gathering to other people so that they can use it and do something with it.
Alex Ely:I think there always been architects who have, published manifestos and then for us towards resilient architecture is a is a form of manifesto. It's it's polemical. It's trying to refocus. So it starts with a reevaluation of some of Le Corbusier's, principles for architects and sort of turns them on their head and, reimagines them in a climate crisis and so puts forward ideas of how architecture has to sort of, find its language, find its voice by responding to climate challenge.
Dave Sharp:I'm interested in that idea of that output having a value and being something worthwhile for the practice. And I'm still interested in where other practices and maybe smaller practices might be it might be possible for them to start thinking about developing that kind of culture. So, you know, you're a 20 person studio now, but at times you're a smaller practice. And I'm just curious about what things you might have done to start getting to where you are now with that sort of, I guess, method or that sort of culture that you've that you've got at May.
Alex Ely:Well, we had to make some tough decisions about the sort of work we wouldn't do for a start. Every practice seems to start up doing domestic extensions, loft fit outs, and and the like. And we we had a few of those. But I decided that we weren't going to make a business out of that. And it meant it was a struggle, certainly, trying to position ourselves to do, initially social housing or even housing generally.
Alex Ely:I think the tragedy in our sector or or our industry, our profession rather, is that our industry is very risk adverse. So almost every tender invitation to tender, the first question they ask is, please provide evidence of 3 examples of a project of this size and this nature. And you say, well, you know, that makes it impossible for any new business to to get into, that particular line of work. So that was an increasing frustration. Well, it is a frustration, and it's definitely held us back from getting into other lines of work.
Alex Ely:So initially, I had to reach out to partners. We collaborated a lot with larger businesses. I think that's within everyone's reach, even as a sole sole practitioner to connect with a large business. And the value to them or more specifically to the client is that they see that they're being offered diversity. They're being offered potentially, especially if it's a large housing scheme, the opportunity to create a rich mix of housing that feels more like a neighborhood rather than something homogeneous designed by one one hand.
Alex Ely:So we were very lucky to have large practices who welcomed us and were very happy to collaborate. And in part, that was because we were bringing something to the table. My experience at CAIB and, my policy work, was held in high regard. So, for example, when we tendered for the Agard Grove Estate that I mentioned earlier, we weren't big enough as a practice at the time to meet the turnover threshold required for that job. And but we had a very good relationship with Camden.
Alex Ely:We'd been doing smaller projects with them as a client. So I reached out to Hawkins Brown, a practice I very much like, And they had just delivered a very large estate regeneration scheme for Peabody in South London that never worked in Camden. So it was a great partnership. So they immediately said, yes. Let's let's team up, and we we won the commission.
Alex Ely:So we were each bringing different experience, different strengths. We co designed the master plan. We then split up the plan so that we each took on different buildings. And it was very fair and very enjoyable experience.
Dave Sharp:But I like that you weren't just enthusiastic and willing to do a project and going, that's what I've got to bring to the table that I'm I'm small and keen. You know? But it was that you'd also personally developed reputation by contributing to certain things, being involved in certain things, and that's something that was recognized by those larger practices, which sounds to me like maybe if somebody has that ambitious 3 or 5 year plan to work on public work, it might actually be worthwhile even just as an individual or if you're a sole practitioner or something to to maybe think about those things you might be able to get involved in or participate in that might then help you later even just in terms of approaching a larger practice for a collaboration potentially?
Alex Ely:Yeah. And I think, articulate what it is you're able to offer, and how you can differentiate from what they're offering so that you bring in something that complements the practice rather than is in competition with it.
Dave Sharp:I'm interested in a point you also raised about selecting the right projects to work on also. You must have a real philosophy on what to look for there or or what to avoid maybe more importantly. What does that sort of selection process sort of looked looked like for you? Or what do you what do you focus on? What's the most important thing that you're looking out for?
Alex Ely:I suppose it's about, it's more about where you look for the opportunities. And and, of course, you have to make selections, in order just to to manage your time and focus your energies. So we look for opportunities principally around urban renewal, estate regeneration, public housing, local authority commissions, starting with London because we've got a good base and experience here. So targeting the authorities we already have a track record in or boroughs that we've got planning permission in often often that's a key, consideration for a client and negotiating the system, demonstrating that we can achieve and win over support. And and so we'll inevitably seek out those tenders.
Dave Sharp:You're talking about a local government, a council. They're quite quite enormous organizations. How do you go about if you if you are willing to sort of reach out to them, invite them to come to something, invite them to a site visit, how do you go about identifying that sort of champion within that organization, that that person that is gonna be the one who's gonna what you're doing will resonate with them, and what's your what's your trick?
Alex Ely:I think it comes two ways. I've been fortunate enough to be invited to speak at a lot of conferences and events. Mhmm. And often the audience for those will range from architects, but also local authority. That might be planners.
Alex Ely:It might be development managers. So they're hearing me and seeing me, and then they might reach out afterwards, or I'm having a conversation with them afterwards, and can follow-up. So that's the easiest one where actually you're already in the room with them. The other the harder one, is just speculating and, you know, reaching out to an authority that you have no connection with. But in the in London, specifically, we've who are who are funded, by government.
Alex Ely:And they've been bringing in or getting, people from principally architecture, but the broader profession, and seconding them into local authorities. And their their their public practice associates are there to kind of give a little spark and spice things up and be a bit, Agitators. Agitators. That's a good word. So they'll sit between often between the planning team, maybe the housing team or the delivery teams, development teams.
Alex Ely:And so they're a really good source to reach out to, because often they're architects. So the the at least you're speaking the language, initially, and they might have heard of you.
Dave Sharp:I get the feeling that specialization is quite important in the public side that you work in, not in the sense of a particular project type, whether it's housing or community or whatever, but I think there's a perception out there that generally speaking architects, it's fine to generalize and it's not a problem. We're good at being generalists. And that is true. But I think there's an idea that that should also extend across these broad sectors. So we should be able to do plenty of private housing, commercial, hospitality, then also do public and then also do education, then also do health care.
Dave Sharp:Like, this idea of the practice can just sort of work across all these different environments. But from the sounds of what you're describing within the public sector, the expectation of you having past experience, I guess, means that in the in the short time span that we have a practice, practice, you really do need to kind of pick and choose what you do to be able to build enough experience in a project type or in a local authority area for it to actually have any meaning. Right? Because if you just do, like, pinch of things here and there and then you go do some houses and you go do some office fit outs or whatever, I just feel like you're always gonna be at a pretty bad disadvantage in that in any of those public areas. I don't know.
Dave Sharp:That's just the I'm just interested in your thoughts on specialization.
Alex Ely:I mean, I consider myself a generalist in the sense that we can look at a broad range of problems and help solve them. And we're sitting in the middle of a broad range of disciplines sort of, putting all the pieces together. But I think, ultimately, we need to recognize what our clients are after. We're there to solve customers' problems and improve their situation. So in principle, they're gonna be wanting specialist experience, and that's a reality.
Alex Ely:Now they may be enlightened enough to think, well, actually, we can take a punt on this architect because, actually, we're wanting to build a hospital, but, actually, our priority is, we see that they haven't they've got a bit of health care from the John Morton Center. But, actually, the bigger issue we face is, I don't know, sustainability, how to drive down the carbon emissions of our hospitals. So maybe their specialism in that sector will will give it a go. And in in our case, if we were to have the opportunity for hospital, you know, we'd recognize our shortfalls, and we'd bring in a medical specialist to to work with us. But I think we've got to recognize, realistically, the client is wanting specialist expertise.
Alex Ely:And so we might as well articulate clearly what what our specialisms are. Because I think we can all how we describe our work can take a number of different avenues. You know, interestingly, with the Sterling prize scheme, when we were shortlisted, I did research into all the jury. I tried to understand what aspect of the building they might be interested in, and I made sure that I'd articulated that on the tour. It doesn't mean I'm being disingenuous or kind of rhetorical.
Alex Ely:I'm just focusing on it's it's still the same project. It's still the same ideas, but I'm kind of it's like a graphic equalizer. I'm I'm bringing up into focus certain things that might appeal to them and toning down other things that may have been actually really important to me as a designer, but actually, I know aren't gonna interest that audience. So for me, specialism isn't necessarily about, a sector. It might be about how we communicate about our work.
Alex Ely:So someone who has experience in private domestic housing can talk about that housing or those those ideas in that house and how applicable they are to a broader housing solution or to affordable housing. So there's no different ways of describing our work, I suppose.
Dave Sharp:And also saying what you mentioned earlier about that what clients are also sort of possibly looking for or expecting or what their preference would be kind of ties in with that as well. It is adaptable when you're talking about the communication or the the way that it's articulated. It can be adaptable. It's not a very fixed thing of we're only capable of working within this very particular project type, and there's only one recipient that will understand that and one small niche that will get that, you're able to use the language to sort of convey it to a broader audience and not have it become a pigeonholed kind of exercise or or the practice not getting pigeonholed.
Alex Ely:That's right. And I think I mean, it's really interesting the context of the John Morton Center. I am really conscious of my job now is to try and demonstrate that the lessons from that can be applied elsewhere because it's such a bespoke building for such a unique context and client. It's a care home. It's a very historic heritage listed building that we're working alongside.
Alex Ely:It's catering for a very specific need. It's designed around really tight constraints on on a particular site that had all these sort of challenges to design around. The the solution could only come out of that combination of, needs and and site. But, actually, the lessons that come out of it and the way I need to communicate it around are around low embodied carbon, low operational carbon, meeting user needs, accessibility and inclusive design, responding to heritage, dealing with health care environments. And suddenly, if I talk about it in those broader terms, I hope that clients who might be commissioning some very different kind of building, but perhaps in a heritage setting or that has health care need, you know, requirements might recognize that there's transferable knowledge and, experience.
Dave Sharp:In terms of a theme that I think has come up through the conversation in a in a couple of different ways, but it, I think it is about that issue of communication and transferability because I think you've really emphasized the important role that your responsibility in actually teasing out the themes of the projects and not just kind of leaving that to chance or open to interpretation. My experience and and and saying that you've kind of raised is, I guess, like, if not framed in the right way, I suppose projects can just be kind of taken quite literally by clients and by audiences. And now it's starting to make a little bit more sense for me in terms of the value of the research and writing and talks and the book that it's a format for you to better explain those projects in your own terms so that then they can kind of lead to another area. Am I in the right kind of direction there in terms of how that sort of fits
Alex Ely:in? Yeah. I think each project I I mentioned earlier sort of leads to lessons. And Mhmm. Where I wanna go as a practice is that we're constantly improving, and you could say sort of optimizing our design.
Alex Ely:And there has to be poetry there as well. You know? You you have to kind of allow space for kind of the art of architecture. But the environmental crisis is is such that we need to ensure that we're always, achieving marginal gains in every project or every element of a design. So something I haven't talked about yet is our interest in finding areas of, marginal gains or improvements in every element of a project.
Alex Ely:So when you're designing a building, are you optimizing the form factor to reduce heat loss? What are you doing about improving or getting the window ratios absolutely right for the maximum daylight into the home and the minimum heat loss? And and this is how we kind of use our reviews, our our May 0, our May plus, our May b reviews, is to interrogate every aspect of a scheme. So you get those 1% improvements, that collectively lead to quite big, change. And that's all sounds quite technocratic, but I think it's necessary.
Alex Ely:So then the skill is then how you also kind of find the art and the poetry as well alongside that. But I mentioned earlier the need to kind of find a language for architecture that comes out of, designing for resilience.
Dave Sharp:I feel like an interesting approach that you've also taken with how you document the projects. And I think that's also a big part of their success and popularity is the style of the imagery and the style of, you know, films that you've produced and different sorts of quite evocative ways of showing the way that the space is used in a very kind of people oriented approach to photography rather than a really stripped back typical architectural style and, I guess, been an interesting sort of style that's developed for the practice. Right? And something that you've kind of gravitated towards as a kind of approach with imagery.
Alex Ely:Yeah. I think that's a really good question is how do architects represent their work to best illustrate what they're about as a practice. And I think we're always learning. And there are 2 two aspects to that, aren't there? There's how you represent your work as you're designing it and presenting it to clients as in clients and audience.
Alex Ely:And we need to present if we're doing community engagement, you know, plans and sections aren't gonna work. We have to find different tools, whether that's models or, animations and so on. And then there's how we represent our build work. And we've worked with brilliant photographers, and I know you've, you know, Jim Stevenson. He he's a brilliant, filmmaker.
Alex Ely:He's great at sort of conveying the life of the buildings. And I I like that balance. I'm not adverse to kind of capturing the quality of light that falls onto the the floor of a building or the kind of framed view of a landscape out of a building. You know, I'm interested in those very beautifully composed photographs that focus entirely on the architecture. But we try and balance that with films or other photographs that show how the life of the building takes over or other the residents take over the building once, the architect steps away.
Dave Sharp:I think it's a great balance with the areas that you're interested, the the more expertise side of the practice, which is pretty highly technical or very highly technical, data driven, research oriented. But having that imagery that is very end user focused and still has those more sort of aesthetic architectural qualities, I think does a really great job of avoiding ending up in a situation where you're just seen as like a technical analytical practice. It emphasizes that it isn't just that side of things, which I think it's good to have that balance, isn't it, in the output so that because you've recognized the importance of both of those areas in terms of how the practice is perceived.
Alex Ely:I am preoccupied about the image of the practice and the how we present our work. I want it to look accomplished. I want it to look considered, cared for. So, therefore, how we frame a view, how we set up a CGI or, user sketch is really important because it focuses our minds and the audience's mind about what we care about.
Dave Sharp:Do you feel that the style of imagery that it's extremely high quality. Right? A Jim Stevenson film or your visuals and renders that you make internally are very, like, carefully crafted. They're not just sort of thrown out there, and they have a very sort of handmade sort of style to them in a way. And, obviously, like, as architecture people, we love this sort of imagery.
Dave Sharp:Like, we respond so so well to it. But have you also found that, you know, the other types of audiences like clients, local authorities, things like that, a nonarchitectural audience, like, have you found that they also warm to those sorts of images and films and and just as much as sort of an architectural audience?
Alex Ely:I think it's mixed. We were producing them to serve a purpose, especially at the design stage. And that purpose might be advocacy and marketing on the website. But, actually, that doesn't typically that's not typically the first thing you're producing them for. You're producing them to either convey an idea to the client, the end user, or more particularly, maybe planning.
Alex Ely:And so they, you know, have to be honest, and they have to be, to a degree, realistic. But I think also because we're interested in the haptic quality of architecture, the sort of tectonic, the material kind of qualities, You know, a flashy CGI that's highly saturated and isn't really conveying what our architecture is about. So, you know, we're lucky to have worked in the past with brilliant, renders, but also as you as you observed kind of more recently in house, developing our own style. And I think that is about trying to, illustrate what we're about as architects. And and the other sort of aspect of it is because so much of our work is at a larger scale, whether that's urban design and mass planning or even just 2 housing blocks next to each other.
Alex Ely:We're as interested in the sort of spaces that we're crafting in between buildings. And so often, the imagery that we're developing is as much about communicating the, urban qualities that we're trying to achieve as as they are about the architecture.
Dave Sharp:Alex, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Alex Ely:It's been a real pleasure, Dave.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Alex Eli of May Architects. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit may.co.uk or follow them on Instagram at may architects. This episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe, including in the United Kingdom. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation to discuss your studio, please visit officedavesharpe.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode was edited by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio and engineered by James Eid of Bead Herd podcast production. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.