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For so many modern, driven women, life is about being more than one thing. We’re multidimensional—and so are our conversations. We carry multiple identities; we can be both mother and artist; both attorney and entrepreneur. Both clinician and CEO. Both humble and proud. Life for women like us is about both. About…all of the above. It’s about the “and”...
00:00.00
heymarvelous
Welcome to the And She Spoke podcast hey Sandy how you doing today.
Um, okay, well we are talking about something that I think is a little controversial and a little exciting for us which is the idea of saying the quiet part out loud. So.
00:15.50
sandy
On that.
00:29.23
heymarvelous
What are your thoughts on this Sandy because this is like revolutionary here.
00:32.69
sandy
Yeah I don't even know where to start. Okay I think that the saying the quiet part out loud I think for us it means that we are tired of playing small. We are tired of hiding we are tired of just being angry behind the scenes or complaining about things behind the scenes. And we've reached a bit in a place in Business. We're ready to come forward and talk our truth and share our ideas come with me right? and I think go ahead I have another thought to that but you go you go.
00:54.81
heymarvelous
Now.
01:01.30
heymarvelous
Yes, yeah, so I mean this this is kind of like a meme or like a hashtag that we've seen around on social and I think it comes from like a simpsons episode or something from the early 90 s like.
01:12.17
sandy
Um.
01:18.90
heymarvelous
It's That's not what we're referencing here if that's what your understanding of that phrase is but it's really this idea of like I think for us, there's this famous camus quote which is like the risk to remain tight in a bud. There came a time where the risk to remain tight in a bide was greater than the risk it took to Blossom or maybe that's like.
01:35.24
sandy
I Know you had me, you sold it to me.
01:36.30
heymarvelous
Someone else? Maybe it's not I sold it to you and then I backtracked. Um, but anyway there's this quote I think it's not kamut and this idea that like we spend all this energy trying to like be proper and be good girls and and be like keep the parts of ourselves that are like less.
01:52.20
sandy
Ah.
01:55.93
heymarvelous
Perfect and less polished and maybe less controversial or or more controversial we try to keep those parts quiet and to like iron over them and you and I have like a decade long slack Dm chat where we basically like say all of those things to each other. Um, but we never really say them.
02:01.54
sandy
Um, yeah, yeah.
02:12.60
sandy
No no.
02:13.77
heymarvelous
On the podcast here. We Never really say them like anywhere publicly on social media. Um, and I think that we're just exhausted and I think that our idea with doing this episode is that maybe all of the energy that we're taking sort of keeping all of these parts of ourselves that are like less beautiful less. Less like expected Hidden is like that energy would be better spent just actually saying them out loud and dealing with the impacts and the controversies that result.
02:42.83
sandy
Later? Yeah, and I think we were talking earlier and I think what has kept us quiet for so long is that we do have each other and as you reference our our slack chat our slack. Um Channel It's all in there.
02:56.60
heymarvelous
So.
02:57.29
sandy
You know and it's like the most fascinating part about ass in our partnership is that slack channel and we've often often joked about making that public and making a book or like publishing it anononymously. Yeah graphic novel or whatever but it's like that's where all the gold is That's where all the Jews says that's the.
03:01.88
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, graphic novel graphic novel.
03:14.45
sandy
Those are the ideas and the thoughts and the beliefs and the controversies and the confusion that everyone is curious about and so I think it's just that this episode is sort of a public acknowledgement that we're going to go forward. We are going to. You're going to see a little bit of a different side of Jenny and Sandy that might I don't know kind of row some people up which is exactly.
03:34.22
heymarvelous
Yeah, so the quote just to track is an and yes name. So um, that's where that quote comes from. But yeah I mean I think I think it's like part of my problem with the internet and that I've that's become like very acute to me in the last six months is that.
03:34.42
sandy
Why we want to do it How you just found it.
03:53.24
heymarvelous
Like it's really easy to bifurcate yourself and be like this version of yourself in this context in that version of yourself in that context and social media facilitates that I think entrepreneurship facilitates that having a job or a career facilitates that and like we used to kind of I imagine before we before we were born people lived.
03:57.68
sandy
Ah.
04:11.37
heymarvelous
Community where they had a job and a role and they were also like part of a family and like they were more of a whole person like a whole embodied human being and now we have these like these like very bifurcated versions of ourselves where we show up like I am the climate attorney here and I am. I am like the entrepreneur here and I am you know the mom here and I think that it's really psychologically dangerous to live like that for very long so that's like my bigger problem with it is just like There's just so much of myself that I have to censor in every single context not because it's necessarily controversial bad but it's just like that's not appropriate to to have a conversation about Xyz in that context and it's just just exhausting.
04:57.78
sandy
Yeah I I agree last week we we published the episode about um, we've made the decision as a company to get off Instagram and no longer post there and go to some other um social media platforms namely Twitter and and Linkedin.
05:14.61
sandy
And I think it's just been like a week. It's been a week and it's been so interesting. How for me personally that has changed with what you're saying I Also think that I feel much more free to speak I feel much more.
05:30.20
heymarvelous
Yeah.
05:32.94
sandy
Open the topics feel more open I am ah more comfortable talking about something that might be controversial or kind of make you go what you know or maybe even show some anger and some frustration publicly and say like this is driving me crazy. And I wouldn't do it over on Instagram so it feels like a whole new world has just opened up in front of us and um, I'm kind of excited about it. I'm excited about it.
06:03.28
heymarvelous
Yeah, you know I think Instagram is the embodiment of the patriarchy like ah to be honest, that's like a whole conversation. A other conversation about it. But yeah I mean I think it's like.
06:06.25
sandy
Um, yeah, yeah.
06:14.94
heymarvelous
It is freeing and I think that again, there's something beautiful about just like having the freedom to write a few words versus having to perform and create graphics and one of the things that we talked about pre and post our last recording of our podcast was like.
06:23.51
sandy
Um, ah.
06:30.45
heymarvelous
The fact that because of how Instagram came into existence and like what it prioritized that we have like this whole kind of genre of very successful entrepreneurs especially women entrepreneurs who are I think largely successful because they have a background in design and photography. Like definitely was a huge asset for those people. Um versus you can think about how like Twitter or Linkedin doesn't give a shit if you're good at photography right? It's about like what you have to say or who you know and and I think that that's like important to notice like what are the advantages and the.
06:57.42
sandy
Um, the thinking.
07:07.23
heymarvelous
Like special treatment I guess that certain people get because of their background their skills or their connections on various platforms or on various you know walks of life and I think that that's just kind of one of these like unspoken things. So for those of us who don't have professional backgrounds in design. You know it's quite a lot of work to try to make something. Look good, especially pre-canva remember those days Sandy where it was like so much effort to make something that's like a really just ephemeral.
07:26.70
sandy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:37.41
sandy
And you also need a wardrobe in complete neutrals and your house designed in neutrals with maybe some coral pops or some like rest color like that that to me is like to finds the Instagram right now. Um, but I love this? ah.
07:38.59
heymarvelous
Oh my gosh.
07:46.47
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, yeah.
07:53.37
sandy
Ability to sit and think and create and again you've been doing this longer than I have without this. How am I going to how am I going to put how am I going to like is this going to be a film is this going to be a story is this going to be a real is this going to be ah ah a graphical post with text like. None of that. It's just like here's the idea here's the thought and um the other thing I wanted to mention you said this to me today and this may be a little bit off topic. But you said something to me that was um.
08:14.76
heymarvelous
M.
08:28.68
sandy
The best ideas come out of conversation. The best ideas for like content comes from conversation.
08:35.60
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, yeah and I give total credit to David Perrell for that who is a tremendous thought leader and. Entrepreneur and writer on the internet and that's one of kind of his chief tenets is this concept of writing from conversation and I I yeah I can't believe we haven't talked about that before I'm just I just assumed we had talked about it. But I think it's so powerful and he he teaches that like that in this day and age the idea that.
08:46.90
sandy
Um.
08:53.80
sandy
But.
09:02.56
heymarvelous
Like to come up with content or to be a creator you're going to go sit in a room in front of a screen or a piece of paper or a notebook or whatever and all of a sudden have inspiration strike you is such a like.. It's such an outdated way to think and it's probably was never true and really where. You know if you feel like you have writers block for you're a blogger or you know creator of some kind like if like look around have you been like sitting in your house. You know, staring at a screen for a few days like maybe you need to go out and have a cup of coffee with someone go out to go out to lunch like go to an event like.
09:25.56
sandy
09:36.68
heymarvelous
Promise and he promises and it's It's true that if you go out and experience the world and talk to people and interact you're going to have plenty of stuff to make like yeah.
09:44.99
sandy
Yeah, yeah, and for for our clients. Um, who are in the visible program or who who are in the luminaries program. Um, which visible is a part of I think this is such a great um concept Because. For me every time I go to my networking group I've got ideas of like things that have irritated me things that have annoyed me things that I want to celebrate every time we finish a coaching call I have like 10 more things I want to add or want to say all of that is like what we should be creating our content and what we should be going out publicly in the past I would come.
10:02.31
heymarvelous
M. Yeah, yeah.
10:17.39
sandy
And talk to you or slack you and tell you all my angry things and then we would just go out and just be like you know say what we needed to say look like look how we needed to look sort of and um I don't know that either of us really worry both that too much. But.
10:19.59
heymarvelous
Yeah, same.
10:29.17
heymarvelous
Um.
10:35.25
sandy
I Just I love this idea and you know that I have always struggled with myself as a thought leader. Um, but I can start to see it because I am paying more attention to my thoughts and ideas now that we've had these sort of conversations and I.
10:43.78
heymarvelous
Um.
10:54.60
sandy
See that I have something to say and I just would challenge all the listeners who are more like me than you who are like I don't know I don't know and I think that we all have something to say and it starts with those conversations and that's such a great um touch point to like after you go for dinner lunch a meeting. Whatever.
11:10.10
heymarvelous
Um.
11:13.46
sandy
What come out of there like what are you thinking about? can you work that into your content.
11:18.57
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, you know it's That's so interesting because we do have very different views like I don't have the same.
11:23.53
sandy
You don't need those conversations.
11:27.35
heymarvelous
Fear No I do I don't but I don't have to say my fears are different than yours. So your fear is I think has always been and correct me if I'm wrong that like you don't think you don't feel like you have something important enough to say or you don't you know that that's basically your feeler fear or not feeling smart enough and I don't have those fears for better or worse. But I have other.
11:29.37
sandy
Yeah.
11:39.77
sandy
Um.
11:41.97
sandy
Ah.
11:47.14
heymarvelous
Fears which is that like power comes from discretion and um and I think that that's partly just how I was socialized early in my career. You know I was working in politics and discretion and working with celebrities and so discretion and ah and then ah God Forbid I became a lawyer.
11:48.74
sandy
Oh.
12:05.81
heymarvelous
So discretion was everything and so your power came from like the secrets you held versus what you said out loud and I think that was true and it and it it probably is true true in a lot of context. But as a creator and as an entrepreneur. It's not really true and I think that I just it's like ten years later and I'm like.
12:12.68
sandy
Um, right.
12:23.43
sandy
The the.
12:25.27
heymarvelous
Oh the skills that served me so well in my previous life. Don't actually serve me in this life and maybe discretion is overrated. Maybe we're we're in like a post-discretion Society At this point.
12:33.71
sandy
Um, yeah, well I would say that that's very true I would say that's very true, but it's interesting like when we put that into the context of business. How do you think that discretion is holding you or us back.
12:39.42
heymarvelous
And.
12:48.73
heymarvelous
Oh I have so much to say and I I you know I read I read a lot and I follow a lot of what's going on in entrepreneurship and in the news and politics and I have so much to say and I just I see other people having conversations and I feel. Like I can't or shouldn't participate even though I know that what I have to say is meaningful and so I think it's it's like ah it's like a self gagging is what it's like why? why because I have upon starting a business and you and I have talked about this at length have felt like.
13:12.62
sandy
Um, and why.
13:26.81
heymarvelous
I Don't want to say something. That's my personal point of view that is going to somehow negatively impact our software company and I feel like I have like this motherly instinct to protect it. But it's like so many years now of.
13:33.52
sandy
Right.
13:42.20
heymarvelous
Thinking that when I actually think you and I decided like together and right or wrong that we're going to like not do that anymore.
13:45.80
sandy
Yeah, because what if your voice and your opinions and you being controversial and you saying something shocking or whatever. It is actually helps us right? I think that's kind of what we what? if it's the opposite is true. It doesn't it doesn't hurt the company.
14:00.42
heymarvelous
Yeah, probably is true, but but it's not just like I just want to say for our listeners like it's it personally and Sandy speak for yourself like I don't feel like I'm just like bottled up with controversy. It's not like I'm sitting here on you know, like.
14:14.70
sandy
Um, ah.
14:17.59
heymarvelous
I Don't know state secrets or something I just I feel like because we have a big you know a relatively large business like anything that I say that's even remotely controversial or like could be possibly conceived as controversial will alienate some customer prospective customer or some end user. Whatever.
14:30.39
sandy
With her.
14:36.72
heymarvelous
And I have the sense that like oh it is my duty to the corporation that I don't harm anything but then I think about like all the people on all the boards of big companies who say whatever they want in their lives you know and and I I like obviously why am I self- censoring. Why are you self- censoring? what like I think it has something to do with like.
14:45.43
sandy
Right? right.
14:56.17
heymarvelous
Internalized sexism and like our general fear I think of being outsiders and maybe making ah us more out like giving us more outsider status than we already have I don't know.
14:57.93
sandy
Ah.
15:08.41
sandy
Yeah, and I think like what what I'm witnessing is like other software ah founders co-founders who are just like.
15:18.69
heymarvelous
Yeah I know I know that's what yeah yeah.
15:19.56
sandy
Saying stuff on Twitter and we're just like hiding in the corner and it's really hard to watch. It's also it's not just it's not even just like it's not even just tech co-founder or founders. It's like guys. Writing code to create software companies because they want to create a saas and I just want to say you have no f an idea what you're doing I want to say that you have no idea you have no idea what you're getting into and they're just so focused on this language or that language or like code or no code like do I use Ai or do not you like oh my god.
15:39.45
heymarvelous
I Know I know I know.
15:52.60
sandy
That is like 1 drop in the butt bucket of what it takes to run a software company and you guys aren't even asking the right questions and it drives and so that I would just be like angry and say Jenny did you did in and in it and not say anything.
15:53.46
heymarvelous
Even.
16:01.16
heymarvelous
Just not say anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:07.13
sandy
And it's like how interesting like if I just like started to challenge and had those some some of those conversations on Twitter with those with those like you know they're guys. They're all guys literally they are all men that are saying this. There's no women going I want to build a software company. Um.
16:16.87
heymarvelous
Yeah I know I know.
16:23.58
sandy
It's like those things and that's like I do feel like I literally hiding in the corner being angry about what I'm seeing people say and how I think they've got it wrong and how I think they're maybe missing the point and I could be wrong, but it's like that's the opening. That's the blossoming of the of the bud is to recognize like.
16:29.00
heymarvelous
Are you.
16:41.74
sandy
I'm going to step into this arena and start to say things and converse with people and be okay with the outcome.
16:46.76
heymarvelous
Yeah, that's how I feel too I mean and until something really bad happens I I hear here's the thing is like I've spent many months processing this this idea of starting to have more of a public personal persona like being able to just.
16:58.35
sandy
Ah.
17:06.61
heymarvelous
Say and speak things because I'm mostly out of like Self-p preservservation because I don't know that I can exist any longer while I'm muzzling myself I think that that's that's more of it and you know part.
17:18.60
sandy
Ah, ah.
17:22.91
heymarvelous
I mean I've been I've been saying this for many months and then you and I both listened to the witch trials of J K Rowling which I know is a very controversial podcast and I also just I mean this is a totally different issue but in that podcast series j k rowling is interviewed. And talked about like why she started speaking out around gender issues in a very controversial way and she said something to that effect right? Which is this like I couldn't live with myself if I didn't and I I think I think that's kind of where I'm at it just in general with like everything I I feel like why am I hiding and.
17:50.61
sandy
Um, yeah.
18:00.80
heymarvelous
You know what? here's another thing that I'm just going to say like this is again saying the quiet part out loud I feel when I was younger I had nothing to lose like I was basically a high school dropout like I I turned that into an ivy league education I turned that into a full scholarship to law school I turned that into working for. The vice president of the United States and members of congress and like multiple presidential campaigns and I turned that into a career. Um that was like someone like me shouldn't have had and I worked at a major university like I I was like raising a lot of money for a new field of of legal work. And what happened to me was all of a sudden I had something to lose and I think that there was this sense of I don't ever want to go back to to like brock bottom I don't want to like lose whatever status. Power access that I've had miraculously and like there was just a tremendous amount of fear that like all of the sudden everything that I said like could get me canceled could get me discredited and it's true it's true I mean there's it's not made up.
19:00.48
sandy
Ah.
19:14.90
heymarvelous
That's the actual world that we all live in and ah, but at some point like I've seen so many people in the last few years get quote unquote canceled even like like last five years and they're so they like sort of pick up the pieces and just keep going and do something else and maybe something more amazing than what they were doing like within the system.
19:32.90
sandy
Um, yeah.
19:34.10
heymarvelous
So that also gives me some some like I don't courage is the right word.
19:36.78
sandy
Yeah I read somewhere I don't know maybe you even gave it to me I don't know but like if you want to experience True Freedom get canceled something to that effect. Did you say okay sorry it's all just the mess in my brain.
19:44.72
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah I did send it to you? Yeah I did send that to you I totally sent that to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah I think it's true I think it's the most liberating thing that can happen.
19:52.21
sandy
Like like that is an interesting thing right? to think about right and like though because you're otherwise you're just canceling yourself which is what we have been doing. You're just sitting there like I shouldn't say that that's I got to be the good girl I got to like please everyone I got don't want to piss off our clients I don't want to.
20:02.46
heymarvelous
Yeah.
20:10.91
sandy
Piss off the potential investors acquires. Whatever you know the judgment from out there other software owners and dont want to so we just cancel ourselves. Um and I just like I think.
20:13.42
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
20:20.23
heymarvelous
Yeah.
20:24.83
sandy
God Some of the frustration that you have you and I have experienced over all these years is that there's no one like us doing these things or maybe they're just being quiet too and these conversations count and they matter and I think I feel now like ah, a duty and a responsibility to speak our mind and speak our experiences so that others.
20:29.36
heymarvelous
Yeah.
20:44.52
sandy
Can learn from it or join the conversation or whatever it may be um so I think I'm just thinking bigger than us and not so focused on us. But like maybe someone really wants to hear this. Maybe someone would be helped by us being you know, ranting about.
20:50.69
heymarvelous
Yeah, me too.
21:02.32
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, you know I mean there's so many times like I think in building our company where we had experiences that like you and I have shared with people a lot in private where people like jaw their jaws drop open you know and and I and they are like tell me more.
21:02.52
sandy
X Y Z Whatever it is.
21:15.44
sandy
Um, yeah.
21:21.41
heymarvelous
And like that's sort of a constant theme I think for many years for both of us like we have so much going on and then like but just publicly we don't say it and then I you know I see again like just going back to Twitter I see people other people saying stuff and I'm like huh.
21:31.76
sandy
Um, two.
21:38.64
heymarvelous
That's so interesting like why do they have the courage to say that like what about what about them makes them feel like that's appropriate. But every time I read something like that I'm so grateful that they wrote it and you know like or people writing Opeds or blogs or whatever ah telling their stories and.
21:48.11
sandy
Right.
21:57.30
heymarvelous
I think I just I don't want to trade in these like you know hushed cocktail party conversations anymore I just I want to be like as fully embodied as possible and I want us you and I to sort of be an example of that online because like I know you know we have created. Platform and a coaching program and a company and a podcast around supporting other people particularly women um to be able to be entrepreneurs and to be able to make a living as creators and if we are not living that ourselves like living that value like what are we actually teaching.
22:26.60
sandy
Um, ah.
22:30.90
sandy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no I think that's right and that that feels really good to me and that feels very exciting to me I'm wondering Jenny if you would share more about how you. Plan or are even starting to think about showing up as a full person online as an because you've obviously you've got political background and political views and an activist and and an entrepreneur and all the things. How are you going to piece all those areas together.
22:50.46
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
23:06.14
sandy
In this new vocal Jenny.
23:06.93
heymarvelous
Well, yeah, it's brand new right now and I don't I don't know the total answer to that. But I mean right? I so I started writing a couple months ago and like blogging for the first time and I was like an early blogger right? like I was ah I was like a very committed wellness blogger for everyone who doesn't know that. Um, early on like not like giantly successful or anything but I was like a very consistent sort of early blogger in the wellness world and then I kind of pivoted my blog a little bit and then I eventually let it just kind of go. Um and I loved it and I it was like such. Ah. Place for me to self-express and um, my gift to myself when my mom died of cancer when I was in law school was to start blogging like that was the gift is I took $500 and I paid um a web designer to like build a custom. Site for me on Squarespace like a million years ago when Squarespace was really brand new. So just like to give everyone that background and and I had started I think on like blogger or something before that blogs spot I don't remember like 1 of those like free early things and then I paid somebody to create a squarespace site for me. And I started blogging and it was I met so many people like amazing people like online. Um it was really the heyday of blogging kind of pre being on Instagram I started Instagram at some point during my blogging life.
24:35.41
heymarvelous
And then I stopped like life happened I had a child like I got busy I started our company. You know we we got busy and then I learned and I just I think this story is important to to say because this is what we teach our clients as a as a company. I learned the importance of like nicheching down and like messaging and I started blogging for our software company. So I like repurposed all that energy I had put into personal blogging into like with my limited time with a baby blogging. Um, more strategically for a business like but not for myself. It wasn't me. It was like. The 5 video cameras you should consider buying if you want to teach you ago on the internet I mean it was like I turned to that and it became transactional and it became just like part of a job and I lost something by doing that and it's taken me.
25:13.58
sandy
Ah.
25:24.10
heymarvelous
Basically ten years because I started doing that in 2014 so nine years. It's taken me 9 years to kind of like come home and to realize like. I can't stand the fact that I'm different people in different contexts and that I have to sort of like be like who am I talking to what part of myself am I allowed to reveal in this moment like it's just very unnatural and um I don't know how many other people have this but I think it's like part of being a person on the internet is like.
25:52.69
sandy
So.
25:54.79
heymarvelous
You're not actively trying to to do this and I don't think this is what everyone needs to do. But anyway so my path to answer your question is writing and I love the freedom of not having to be strategic of not having to. Focus on like this is my audience and this is my message and I want them to buy something in three months from me. So I'm going to like lead them down this customer journey and nurture them in this way like this for me is more like yeah I have a lot to say about a lot of things that are going on in the world and I have a fair you know I have I have some expertise and. And some things that are happening and whether that's around like environmental issues whether that's around politics whether that's around entrepreneurship or whether that's around like dealing with a chronic illness with you know, the last few years of dealing with long like I have stuff to say and I'm just I just can't. I can't hold it back anymore. So so for me, it's just like I'm going to I'm giving myself the gift of time to invest in writing again and like that's the only thing I'm really committing to doing.
26:55.46
sandy
But you're as far as like publicly on like Twitter the plan is you will sort of cover different topics I know that it's not all sorted but it's not going to be all like business or all politics are all.
27:12.22
heymarvelous
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no yeah yeah, so I don't know I don't know about like going on Twitter as myself which I haven't done in like many many years right? So I'm sorting that up. But yeah I just I want to.
27:14.41
sandy
1 topic right.
27:27.23
heymarvelous
I want to be able to like explore my ideas in writing. So so that's another thing that David prale because we talked about him earlier. That's another thing that David Prale talks a lot about is like um like he has a more eloquent way of saying this but sort of figuring out what you believe by writing and I I agree with that like I think it's a.
27:44.27
sandy
Ah.
27:46.81
heymarvelous
First for a lot of us like either you and I do this I think a lot by talking together. We do that certainly on the podcast together. But I also think there's a lot of great like so like figuring out what you think about something by like taking the time to write about it write a blog post write an essay you know, write something.
27:52.16
sandy
Ah.
28:05.86
heymarvelous
And so for me, it's like sorting out areas where I don't feel certain about something like working through my thoughts. Um, but it's also like sharing the expertise that I do have in certain areas and the opinions that I have in certain on certain topics where um and I'll just say this Sandy because it probably sounds a little.
28:25.37
heymarvelous
Confusing like without actually coming out and saying it and again this is a podcast and a time of saying the quiet part out loud but I'm deeply troubled by the amount of censorship that's happened in. Um, in my country in the United States and and really probably all over the world in the last few years kind of like in the kind of post covered world and and during covid and including self censorship but also like external censorship and so so I think like. That's part of why I want to do this is because I was kind of okay being quiet when it was my choice and like now that it kind of doesn't feel like my choice I'm not okay with like how dare like go ahead and try to keep me quiet iss kind of my that's my mo. So I have a lot to say about that you know like I'm a. I'm a lawyer like the my constitution matters a lot to me and my country and I have a I have a lot to say about certain rights and and freedoms that have have essentially been squashed by many of our um social media platforms and by Google just.
29:21.74
sandy
Um.
29:36.54
heymarvelous
Say that out loud and I have a problem with it and I I want to be able to talk about it. So like that's an example of why I feel so compelled to start writing and sharing and talking. Yeah.
29:44.85
sandy
Um, yeah, that's Great. No I think I think a lot of people who we've met our clients are super Interested. You have had such a very. And interesting background and unique background. Um, and I think people are super interested in what you have to say and I know that when all these pieces come out and you sort of start figuring this out Publicly I think it will I think it'll be really mostly well received I'm sure there's some people are going to be whatever is they're usually it's right angry or question you. But.
30:12.31
heymarvelous
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah, as as more is revealed. It will become more obvious why people are. But yeah I like sort of like floated some things to some some close friends.
30:15.38
sandy
That's fine. Yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah, no.
30:27.98
heymarvelous
Um, in the last week or two and I got I got kind of a lot of pushback. So I know it's going to not all be very well received and it's okay like I I am happy to disagree with people. It's okay I'm happy like that's that's the kind of the point of.
30:39.32
sandy
Ah.
30:43.24
heymarvelous
Being having agency in your life and having your own own opinions like you don't It's not always about convincing other people. Um, yeah, what about you Sandy like what are you thinking about in terms of like this you know these decisions we talk through a lot together and I think we're both kind of arriving here. So like where where are you seeing your.
30:59.20
sandy
Um.
31:03.19
heymarvelous
Your voice and your work headed.
31:04.85
sandy
Yeah, even though though that concept of your work is like but I think it's definitely business I think it's It's not politics. This is not my arena at all.
31:09.42
heymarvelous
Yeah.
31:22.52
sandy
And I think it's business and I think it's women and I think there's some overlap with technology there. Um yeah I think that's it and I think as um I've been writing a little bit on Linkedin and that's very very easy like I have a lot of.
31:23.79
heymarvelous
M.
31:42.19
sandy
Things to say and that feels like a very comfortable playground to kind of play around with articles and and so on. But what's new is like things that I don't like and I'm not I I am angered by or frustrated by that is new and I'm writing an article right now about that for in Linkedin and that feels it doesn't. It doesn't feel unsafe at all to write that because I know that I'm right I just strongly believe that I'm right and that's fine. Um, so I think though I wouldn't have thought of that as to put that out publicly. It'd only be like happy cheerful. You know, positive 3 steps to do whatever and so I'm challenging myself on.
32:05.27
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
32:21.51
sandy
With your help ah in that in that area. Um, yeah so I'm not so sure about topics I don't have quite ah as varied which is fine. Um, but I think it's ah it's a really personal learning process to see where.
32:24.86
heymarvelous
Um.
32:40.16
sandy
Where you can speak up and it's like so infuriating when you see people who have like 1 year experience talk about something that we have 10 years and we don't say anything and they're like out there spouting. It's like what like that.
32:47.51
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
32:52.25
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah I think that's a lot. Yeah I think that that's also I mean that's become much more prevalent right? because as we've grown an experience. There's kind of always this like flood of beginners and it's like Wow. Okay, like what about.
32:53.99
sandy
Like oh no, no no I actually know better than you you know I I let me just chime in here.
33:06.54
sandy
Um, yeah.
33:11.37
heymarvelous
Ah, and maybe they don't have anything to lose right? like maybe they're operating in that place where it's like they have nothing to lose and we do and that's why we're quiet. Yeah yeah, yep, yeah.
33:11.49
sandy
No, and then and I'm not saying that they shouldn't say anything like 100% their voice is valuable but it's just like this reflection back like oh I would never say anything at 1 year're in or whatever or or that new like my it's just.
33:26.86
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
33:30.19
sandy
It's just different. It's that female um, conditioning to think like I have to have 10 years experience before I can speak up on this topic. It's that so it's just like witnessing that and challenging that you know it's really personal growth about about that. But I think it's interesting Jenny when you started the conversation with um.
33:36.19
heymarvelous
Yeah.
33:49.88
sandy
Like hiding versus sort of stepping out publicly and how it's hurting your business versus helping your business and that is really fascinating and this idea of being controvers like we watch so many things blow up because people say something so crazy on one side. Everyone chimes in and that person gets super well known Gathers an audience very quickly that they can leverage late for later things. But it's because they said something so badass so controversial and it's like we avoid that like the plague or have and so I think.
34:17.53
heymarvelous
Um, have.
34:27.84
sandy
Business wise business wise I think that like I want to challenge myself to start saying something that people will be like hey now or like tweet because it's or like retweet or reshare or um, you know share on Linkedin wherever and just be like did you hear what she said.
34:39.98
heymarvelous
3 Sin. Yeah I mean I think I think there's definitely some things that we're going to say that are going to Catch. People's attention or or maybe not and and like we try I But that's not the point I think for for me I think the beauty is that like it's about the process and not the result.
34:54.66
sandy
Yeah, and maybe not. They'll be like want wall boring. Ah.
35:04.28
heymarvelous
Is that it's there's something about like again this like embodying yourself for me. It's like that being true to yourself embodying yourself and it really speaks to sort of like my core personality which is like the 12 to 16 year old activist. Just like who I am in my true self which is that like I have something to say and I'm going to damn well say it and I don't care what people think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
35:24.32
sandy
Ah.
35:29.89
sandy
Yeah I think but I think that's difference between the like the business owner developing an audience versus you Jenny as a as a person and I'm just saying the be nice safe fluffy thing so that no one is. You know, frustrated or angry with you doesn't help your business I think if either is something of like it doesn't have to be controversial but something like maybe a little bit shocking or a little bit opposite to regular opinion or like you know, bringing in your like say something. And I watch people's audiences grow very quickly because they're actually um, not just being nice and normal and kind and positive and sweet say the quiet part out loud and watch your audience grow.
36:18.53
heymarvelous
They're saying the quiet part out loud.
36:23.52
heymarvelous
Yeah I think that that's right, Okay, all right? Well we have a lot more to say about that and I think that that's you know I've talked to you about Sandity. How I wish I hope and wish for just like changing the tagline of our podcast to be saying the quiet part out Loud. So if I get my wish Maybe we'll eventually do that. Um, because I really think that that's the direction I Want to go just with my own thinking my own leadership and my own kind of way of showing up is is like that's where I think I can best serve people so but but I but I Also think that that that lends itself to like.
36:48.12
sandy
Ah.
36:54.28
sandy
Yeah, yeah.
37:01.67
heymarvelous
Like all business owner I Just it's like yes I'm maybe more extreme in my controversial beliefs about how the world is like I have a lot of very strong opinions like I'm at Heart a critic and that's okay, there's a role for people like me but like you don't have to be a critic but like you know you have noticings like just like.
37:03.97
sandy
Um.
37:13.95
sandy
Um, yeah, absolutely.
37:20.75
heymarvelous
Sandy I know you don't think of yourself as a critic but you say like when you go to a meeting you drive home. You think of all these things that like weren't wrong or like you would do differently or how you could do better and I think that that is a stuff like that's where the magic is is those little thoughts to yourself like like put those out get feedback like.
37:30.55
sandy
Um, yeah.
37:39.87
heymarvelous
To our listeners. Don't say the same thing as everyone else and then the other rule the just the last thing I'll say is the ah other rule that we talked about is making sure it's fallible like and we can maybe do a whole episode on that is like that's like a litmus taste. Yeah ok all right.
37:50.15
sandy
Um, yeah I think that's yeah yeah I think we should do a whole episode on that.
37:58.60
heymarvelous
Let's do join hustle I Believe you have the joy.
38:04.73
heymarvelous
No okay I have the joy. Okay I have the joy which is um for those of you watching on any video platform in case that exists I have really gotten into with my kiddo watching.
38:05.66
sandy
What is I don't know what it is. Ah.
38:23.20
heymarvelous
Like the people the picker people on Youtube who go to yard sales and go to auctions and then they resell stuff on ebay and so I went to the thrift store and I found like the most beautiful China and it's like this.
38:31.87
sandy
Are.
38:40.95
heymarvelous
Americana China that was made in England It's so much nicer than what you can buy at any store now and it was like $3 for like a setting and I just I think that there's something That's so fun talking about like harkening back to youth I used to love doing this kind of stuff when I was younger and um. Like oh gosh I always was doing crafts like going to the thrift store and buying teacups and like getting a Diamond drill bit and drilling holes in the bottom of the cups to make planters for succulents like all that Stuff. So I'm back in that because I've got like a kiddo who loves this stuff and um. It's so fun like it's just there's no Point. There's no like strategy. There's nothing serious about it. It's just absolutely fun and to like kind of like it's like that hunting instinct that we have as humans to like hunt for treasure. That's what it feels like so that's my joy.
39:27.52
sandy
Amazing And what's your hustle.
39:32.60
heymarvelous
And the hustle for this week is I started using a new email app I didn't even tell you this because I thought you would judge me Sandy but it's called email app. It's called missive and we're doing a lot of like outreach kind of.
39:39.49
sandy
Um, I knew what I knew. Okay.
39:48.90
heymarvelous
Anyway, with one of our companies right now and it it just allows me to delegate certain emails like follow up to other people really easily and it's got a really nice interface and since I have now almost 16000 unopened emails in my business inbox personal inbox. I could just choose what to import over so I have like this clean workspace without having to deal with the fact that I have kind of a shitstorm of email in my Gmail Account don't judge me Sandy I'm sharing my fun tool with our listeners.
40:20.26
sandy
Ah, okay, that's yeah, there's also a delete all button but okay.
40:20.90
heymarvelous
And that's my tool and I'm enjoying it. There is but I'm afraid of that because I'm afraid there's something that's important I am not an inbox I know I should archive it I should just archive it. But I also like wanted this delegation feature which is the real reason I.
40:32.00
sandy
Um, discourse to trash you just find it. Yeah yeah, yeah, sounds great.
40:40.86
heymarvelous
Kind up for this but it's also nice to have like a clean calm space to work in when you're sending emails. You know we're never or never gonna be the same on this and that's okay, ah.
40:44.70
sandy
Right? But that's why you do select all delete all clean calm space all right? Okay, thank you Jenny thanks for sharing I think everyone will appreciate your views and excited to hear what you've got to say and.
41:01.54
heymarvelous
Same for you Sandy All right folks, we'll see you next time.
41:02.57
sandy
That's it.
41:06.35
sandy
What what was I supposed to do for the joy.
41:12.35
heymarvelous
Mascara.