Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Honest conversations about fear, uncertainty, and what it means to build things when the ground keeps shifting.
Season One is sponsored by WorkOS and Augment Code.
[00:00:11;28 - 00:00:54;01]
Kent Beck
I'd like to thank Augment Code for sponsoring this first season of Still Burning. I can remember my excitement when I saw my first IDE. You could find anything, you could change any code, and I was just so excited. But the era of making changes to code like a watchmaker is gone. Most of the changes now are going to be made by the genie, and Augment Code is helping go beyond the IDE with their new intent product. Programmers stay oriented, they keep learning, they see what's happened, they make strategic decisions, and meanwhile, agents go and do the detailed work.
[00:00:54;01 - 00:01:03;14]
Kent Beck
The gap between an idea and a running system has never been narrower, and that's exciting. The gap between a running system
[00:01:04;17 - 00:01:50;05]
Kent Beck
and a mature, fully running system is the same as it ever was. And the difference is not feature set, the difference is trust. Security, auditability, identity, the list of items a CISO hands you before your system will run in their system. Teams try to tackle this themselves. How hard could it be? It turns out that this is both a very important problem and a very complex problem. That's where WorkOS comes in. Single sign-on, identity providers, role-based access management. WorkOS gives you the infrastructure to trust the systems that you're excited to have built.
[00:01:50;05 - 00:01:54;25]
Kent Beck
My friend Jessica Kerr welcome to still burning.
[00:01:54;25 - 00:01:55;21]
Jessica Kerr
Thank you kid
[00:01:56;22 - 00:01:59;20]
Jessica Kerr
It's their fires making me feel really welcome right now.
[00:01:59;20 - 00:02:00;29]
Kent Beck
Oh good good
[00:02:03;15 - 00:02:04;18]
Kent Beck
So we
[00:02:06;19 - 00:02:10;21]
Jessica Kerr
It's this whole I feel like I feel like it's a dog and it's like jumping up on my lap and licking me
[00:02:12;26 - 00:02:22;26]
Kent Beck
Yeah, yeah, it's the it's the fire equivalent of that yeah Um great to have you on the podcast we've been friends a long time
[00:02:24;03 - 00:02:25;06]
Kent Beck
and
[00:02:26;08 - 00:02:30;04]
Kent Beck
I Wanted to have you on since we had the idea for the podcast.
[00:02:30;04 - 00:02:33;01]
Jessica Kerr
I finally got out to the cool house
[00:02:33;01 - 00:02:58;06]
Kent Beck
You got to the cool house to the cool side of the country a talk to geeks who still care and are still doing something about it and You fit that definition for sure for me I kind of watched you from afar for a while and you kept coming up with these powerful metaphors that made me think differently about my situation like a somathic see
[00:03:00;11 - 00:03:03;15]
Kent Beck
and Then we became friends and work together on
[00:03:03;15 - 00:03:05;27]
Jessica Kerr
various systems thinking
[00:03:05;27 - 00:03:08;23]
Kent Beck
systems thinking Developers during kovid.
[00:03:08;23 - 00:03:09;10]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah
[00:03:09;10 - 00:03:11;15]
Kent Beck
That was an interesting time.
[00:03:11;15 - 00:03:18;05]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, kovid was an interesting challenging time and now we're in a completely different challenging time.
[00:03:18;05 - 00:03:18;29]
Kent Beck
Yeah
[00:03:20;12 - 00:03:21;08]
Kent Beck
in these
[00:03:22;08 - 00:03:23;26]
Kent Beck
challenging times
[00:03:25;16 - 00:03:27;18]
Kent Beck
We need creativity
[00:03:28;19 - 00:03:32;02]
Kent Beck
and We need people who are willing to dig in technically
[00:03:33;15 - 00:03:39;03]
Kent Beck
as the as the rule book is changed. Yes for everybody
[00:03:40;12 - 00:03:48;06]
Jessica Kerr
Yes, but that the meaning of Technical that like the kind of technical digging in we need to do is at another level
[00:03:48;06 - 00:03:56;08]
Kent Beck
Yeah, yeah, things that I wrote whole books about just don't matter anymore like carefully crafting a function
[00:03:57;21 - 00:04:02;17]
Kent Beck
This is no leverage. I mean, right it feels good. It still feels good, right? Uh
[00:04:04;05 - 00:04:06;29]
Kent Beck
But you made the analogy earlier of a woodworking
[00:04:06;29 - 00:04:14;22]
Jessica Kerr
right right now if you want to build a bookshelf or a table That's great. That's a craft But there's also IKEA.
[00:04:14;22 - 00:04:19;18]
Kent Beck
That's right. There's cheaper ways to do it and You could choose to do it
[00:04:21;04 - 00:04:23;10]
Kent Beck
When did you first know that you were a geek?
[00:04:23;10 - 00:04:24;25]
Jessica Kerr
Oh
[00:04:27;18 - 00:04:33;27]
Jessica Kerr
Well in a high school I used to program my graphing calculator Because I was bored in class
[00:04:33;27 - 00:04:35;17]
Kent Beck
Sure, who didn't?
[00:04:35;17 - 00:04:39;16]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah. Well many many people around me did did not
[00:04:39;16 - 00:04:47;07]
Kent Beck
okay, and you noticed that difference You were bored in class and you wanted to dig into this
[00:04:48;12 - 00:04:51;05]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, that was entertaining. I made it play little games
[00:04:52;23 - 00:05:02;03]
Jessica Kerr
Also, I I Wish I knew how to sing but I quit choir in seventh grade because the teacher wouldn't let me read my Star Trek book while other People were singing
[00:05:03;03 - 00:05:07;19]
Jessica Kerr
Okay, but she would let her favorites the cheerleaders talk amongst themselves
[00:05:09;13 - 00:05:12;13]
Jessica Kerr
Hmm so there's like a different value system, right?
[00:05:12;13 - 00:05:12;24]
Kent Beck
Correct.
[00:05:12;24 - 00:05:15;24]
Jessica Kerr
I'm like what is important and
[00:05:17;10 - 00:05:23;24]
Jessica Kerr
And What forms of mental stimulation are worthwhile
[00:05:24;28 - 00:05:32;21]
Kent Beck
Yeah, and socially acceptable. Yeah What when's the first time you felt comfortable being a geek
[00:05:32;21 - 00:05:35;21]
Jessica Kerr
Oh, Missouri Scholars Academy, okay. Yeah. Yeah
[00:05:36;23 - 00:05:46;08]
Jessica Kerr
between sophomore and junior year of high school Missouri has a thing which is like three weeks you go to Mizzou and you they gather like
[00:05:47;08 - 00:06:11;26]
Jessica Kerr
Close to a thousand people from across the state Who are like top of their class academically and to be around? People who valued each other for being smart and Where we can have like geeky conversations and talk about philosophy or technology We didn't call it philosophy then but just like ask interesting questions and then speculate
[00:06:13;22 - 00:06:16;17]
Jessica Kerr
That was the first time that I I felt
[00:06:18;21 - 00:06:20;10]
Jessica Kerr
I Desired.
[00:06:20;10 - 00:06:21;04]
Kent Beck
Hmm.
[00:06:21;04 - 00:06:30;15]
Jessica Kerr
Okay. Yeah, and and my sister went to MSA and then just a few years ago. My kid went to MSA. Oh I was so happy
[00:06:31;26 - 00:06:33;22]
Jessica Kerr
Like my sister met her husband there.
[00:06:33;22 - 00:06:34;15]
Kent Beck
Okay.
[00:06:34;15 - 00:06:35;02]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah
[00:06:37;03 - 00:06:37;18]
Jessica Kerr
So that's
[00:06:39;13 - 00:06:41;04]
Jessica Kerr
There's a lot of value in
[00:06:42;25 - 00:06:45;12]
Jessica Kerr
When you first find that group
[00:06:46;20 - 00:06:50;04]
Jessica Kerr
I contrast this with the first time I came to San Francisco
[00:06:51;15 - 00:07:10;28]
Jessica Kerr
Which was I don't know 12 years ago or something and the billboards are targeted at me Developer and I was like what? That's like that's too much man. I I want my value system to be shared by my friends, but not the whole world
[00:07:10;28 - 00:07:17;15]
Kent Beck
correct and Well, we had fright did you ever get to a fries electronics
[00:07:17;15 - 00:07:19;14]
Jessica Kerr
No, we only had radio check.
[00:07:19;14 - 00:07:33;06]
Kent Beck
Okay, so fries was a whole big supermarket full of capacitors and resistors and Circa boards like yeah everything radio control cars
[00:07:34;18 - 00:07:42;05]
Kent Beck
Every geeky thing you can imagine and and for a while they had locations all around the Bay Area and that was that was kind of magic
[00:07:42;05 - 00:07:45;25]
Jessica Kerr
There's something I want to get back to in the IKEA
[00:07:46;28 - 00:07:55;23]
Jessica Kerr
Analogy related to the billboards. Yeah developers have gone through a period recently of being incredibly valued
[00:07:55;23 - 00:07:56;28]
Kent Beck
Yeah, like
[00:07:58;25 - 00:08:01;07]
Kent Beck
What's the like 2018
[00:08:02;17 - 00:08:04;29]
Kent Beck
to 2022 or something.
[00:08:04;29 - 00:08:26;07]
Jessica Kerr
Oh, come on When when I got out of college in 1999 this beautiful year to get out of college It was so easy to get hired as a programmer That was an easy career to go into because I could get a job in any city. I wanted whenever I wanted I was very happy with that. And so I feel like suffer development has been a really well paying
[00:08:27;12 - 00:08:49;18]
Jessica Kerr
My kids observed that your job looks pretty great mom You get to travel around you get to work for lots of places you get paid really well. It's been a fantastic job and And now this year Maybe starting last year now we feel threatened because the IKEA of software development has arrived
[00:08:51;09 - 00:08:51;19]
Kent Beck
Yes
[00:08:52;29 - 00:09:03;20]
Kent Beck
It feels like it's arrived because part of our job Part of our job has been Has been taken out of our hands.
[00:09:03;20 - 00:09:07;22]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah part of our job can be easily replaced with something
[00:09:10;09 - 00:09:11;11]
Jessica Kerr
with With a computer
[00:09:11;11 - 00:09:12;29]
Kent Beck
now with the machine.
[00:09:12;29 - 00:09:18;00]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah. Yeah with something that anyone can access in their browser
[00:09:20;16 - 00:09:21;17]
Kent Beck
Can they though
[00:09:22;24 - 00:09:23;06]
Kent Beck
so
[00:09:23;06 - 00:09:26;00]
Jessica Kerr
well not everyone has internet access but most of us do
[00:09:26;00 - 00:09:40;09]
Kent Beck
yeah, but Just because you have access to cloud code in your browser doesn't mean you know what to do with it or You start doing something with it and you're and you don't know that it's
[00:09:41;21 - 00:09:45;26]
Kent Beck
Well, I call it the genie right? It's granting wishes and it's not what you want
[00:09:47;04 - 00:10:03;22]
Kent Beck
So so knowing that the skill has gone from this synthetic skill Let me create a program with meat fingers to an analytic skill. This is like You're telling me this is a program. Let me let me analyze what you've done
[00:10:05;02 - 00:10:05;07]
Kent Beck
I
[00:10:05;07 - 00:10:11;28]
Jessica Kerr
What no, no, I don't think you have to analyze a program for it to be useful. Okay, let's let's get concrete.
[00:10:11;28 - 00:10:12;17]
Kent Beck
Okay.
[00:10:12;17 - 00:10:14;22]
Jessica Kerr
Okay so
[00:10:16;16 - 00:10:19;00]
Jessica Kerr
I Mean I could take a
[00:10:20;09 - 00:10:20;27]
Jessica Kerr
Civilian
[00:10:22;02 - 00:10:29;24]
Jessica Kerr
Like my mom could now make a website. Yeah Claude if she wanted to But let's let's get to a work scenario
[00:10:31;15 - 00:10:31;26]
Jessica Kerr
if
[00:10:33;16 - 00:10:46;08]
Jessica Kerr
The accounting department now wants to expand their spreadsheet into some or a portion of their spreadsheet into something that they can Use among their team and have a real program and have some more automation or something
[00:10:47;10 - 00:10:48;04]
Jessica Kerr
They can do that
[00:10:49;15 - 00:10:53;09]
Jessica Kerr
You have to know what you want. You have to know that it can be done by software
[00:10:53;09 - 00:10:55;12]
Kent Beck
Yes, that's that's part of the skill.
[00:10:55;12 - 00:10:58;02]
Jessica Kerr
I have a place to run it, but that can just be your laptop
[00:10:59;10 - 00:11:07;13]
Jessica Kerr
If if you're going to use it or maybe you share it with your team and multiple people use it or whatever or there's a platform there's a whole nother job there of
[00:11:09;01 - 00:11:12;20]
Jessica Kerr
Internal platforms for people in accounting to run their new software on
[00:11:14;12 - 00:11:41;26]
Jessica Kerr
But basically they can go to IKEA and IKEA here is chat TPT or Claude and They can get the software that they need and it'll be good enough and no they don't have to analyze it They just have to look at the output and say is it good enough? Is it what I want it to you do have to know what you want. That's a trick. Yeah But I don't think you have to understand the code to get useful software now Yeah, we any need to understand the code, but that's our problem
[00:11:43;23 - 00:11:46;11]
Kent Beck
So what I was reacting to was
[00:11:49;26 - 00:11:54;01]
Kent Beck
Okay, we're programmers and our job has just gone away
[00:11:56;02 - 00:12:09;17]
Kent Beck
And Because anybody can do it and I think that's a message a lot of people here, but I disagree And I suppose boldly stated like that you would disagree also sure
[00:12:09;17 - 00:12:23;12]
Jessica Kerr
our job is completely different Yes Well and that somebody's got to assemble the IKEA furniture and my mom actually didn't know how to make her own website So did it for her. I just did it in a few hours instead of a week. Yeah
[00:12:26;05 - 00:12:35;28]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah Yeah our job is completely different because the parts the code crafting and the understanding software through code
[00:12:37;02 - 00:12:39;01]
Jessica Kerr
That part has been commoditized
[00:12:40;17 - 00:12:41;26]
Jessica Kerr
But that's not all of our job
[00:12:43;21 - 00:12:46;17]
Jessica Kerr
It's some people's favorite parts. It's not my favorite part. So I'm okay.
[00:12:46;17 - 00:12:47;14]
Kent Beck
Okay,
[00:12:50;08 - 00:12:52;06]
Kent Beck
I Think it emphasizes once again
[00:12:54;11 - 00:13:01;02]
Kent Beck
That Relating to other people is a highly levered a more highly levered skill now even than it was before
[00:13:02;25 - 00:13:08;04]
Jessica Kerr
Yes, because understanding what to build is the hardest part
[00:13:09;09 - 00:13:13;02]
Jessica Kerr
I've got I open Twitter the other day Which is so sorry
[00:13:14;06 - 00:13:15;24]
Jessica Kerr
It's great for outputting snark
[00:13:17;15 - 00:13:39;28]
Jessica Kerr
But my my pin tweet for many years is I don't want to build software so much as build understanding and express it in software. Mm-hmm And I feel like I can do that More than ever now But I have to do it at a different layer. It's not just writing the code. I need to express that understanding in some sort of verification layer
[00:13:39;28 - 00:13:48;02]
Kent Beck
Yes, and that's where that's where the analytical skills come in to say
[00:13:49;28 - 00:13:51;18]
Kent Beck
There aren't enough tests here
[00:13:53;04 - 00:13:55;14]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, cuz there's like there's building software like
[00:13:56;22 - 00:14:09;29]
Jessica Kerr
And an accountant building software for themselves Yeah, if it works for them it works for them and they understand it well enough But as soon as you're building software for other people Right, um and stuff is going to scale
[00:14:09;29 - 00:14:10;24]
Kent Beck
that's a big step
[00:14:10;24 - 00:14:16;13]
Jessica Kerr
And so for this going to be depended upon by other software that's going to be used by people who?
[00:14:17;13 - 00:14:21;17]
Jessica Kerr
Don't understand it in and out. Yeah, like they're writing it for themselves. They're fine
[00:14:22;23 - 00:14:34;22]
Jessica Kerr
as soon as we Want software that's a capability out into the world? Yeah, then. Yeah, how do we know it works? Requires all that analytical skill, right?
[00:14:35;29 - 00:14:36;21]
Jessica Kerr
That we ever had
[00:14:36;21 - 00:14:47;25]
Kent Beck
Yeah, and and some more because the tools are not would the tools are set up to give us the finger guns You asked for this feature gotcha
[00:14:51;11 - 00:15:00;29]
Jessica Kerr
And that's where the creativity comes in now, yes, right the creativity isn't What shall I name this variable and how shall I refactor this function and and make it look pretty?
[00:15:02;14 - 00:15:13;25]
Jessica Kerr
The creativity is in how do I design a system? That produces code that that works and I can say why I know it works. Yeah
[00:15:15;11 - 00:15:18;21]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, I find that really satisfying.
[00:15:18;21 - 00:15:22;15]
Kent Beck
Mm-hmm. I Want to get back to this?
[00:15:24;01 - 00:15:33;11]
Kent Beck
This step function in software Where either other people or other software relies on what you've done
[00:15:33;11 - 00:15:44;06]
Jessica Kerr
Oh, right, right, but from from this is useful to me and I understand it and that's good enough, right This is useful to many people. This is a capability. I've added to the world
[00:15:45;06 - 00:15:50;10]
Kent Beck
That software has to be at a completely different level. Yes back in the day
[00:15:51;12 - 00:16:08;09]
Kent Beck
over and over again, I'd see early days of objects a shipping company or a chemical company would write some software. It was a really good for what they needed it for and they'd look around and they'd say we should sell this to other people
[00:16:09;10 - 00:16:09;26]
Kent Beck
and
[00:16:11;02 - 00:16:27;05]
Kent Beck
Time out That's at least ten times harder than what you've just done, right? But all they could see was well, this is worth a million dollars to us We'll charge a hundred people a million dollars and we'll have a whole new line of business
[00:16:27;05 - 00:16:37;00]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, because they're not This is worth a million dollars to us in this context in the system with these people and their expectations right
[00:16:38;17 - 00:16:43;02]
Jessica Kerr
and Putting it out into the world with people who have different expectations. Yep
[00:16:44;08 - 00:16:45;17]
Jessica Kerr
and different needs
[00:16:46;20 - 00:16:49;28]
Jessica Kerr
Totally different right because then you have to go understand those people
[00:16:51;10 - 00:16:55;06]
Jessica Kerr
Right and that gets back to the relationships being more important than ever. Yeah.
[00:16:55;06 - 00:16:56;04]
Kent Beck
Yeah
[00:16:58;19 - 00:17:05;11]
Kent Beck
Of the so you introduced a bunch of vocabulary right some of which took off
[00:17:06;22 - 00:17:11;14]
Jessica Kerr
Something took off no. Yeah, I mean a lot of people like the word some apathy
[00:17:11;14 - 00:17:13;04]
Kent Beck
Okay, explain what that means.
[00:17:13;04 - 00:17:18;24]
Jessica Kerr
Yes. Let's talk about some apathy. So math is he is a word coined by Nora Bateson who's an anthropologist
[00:17:20;03 - 00:17:28;01]
Jessica Kerr
And it means a learning system made of learning parts this contrasts with the word system by itself, which is
[00:17:29;11 - 00:17:31;10]
Jessica Kerr
Which often when we think about a system?
[00:17:32;18 - 00:17:41;12]
Jessica Kerr
We think about something mechanical systems can be mechanical. Yeah, and I think it's a cough who says that a system is
[00:17:43;02 - 00:18:03;18]
Jessica Kerr
More than the sum of its parts It's the relationships between all those parts. Yeah that matter and nor basin takes that another step further because while in a machine or a Six-up for a program you can understand all the parts and all the relationships at least theoretically it's complicated
[00:18:05;14 - 00:18:12;25]
Jessica Kerr
In a living system those parts are constantly changing and the relationships between them are constantly changing and
[00:18:14;01 - 00:18:21;24]
Jessica Kerr
Nora sees those as flows of learning Okay, right like like within our our team. We're always learning from each other and changing each other
[00:18:23;13 - 00:18:33;02]
Jessica Kerr
And then the software participates in that to that chemical company that built its own software The people are learning from that software and then they're influencing that software
[00:18:34;07 - 00:19:21;15]
Jessica Kerr
And so the whole system is learning and growing together and you cannot model that you can never you can never understand and Know and predict all of the different parts in the relationships because they're constantly shifting and changing so everything biological and everything human and sociological is a simaph We have to like flow with it and also whenever to study a simaphosy you have to like get in there and Get to know the people and see how they work together and when you do that you influence it
[00:19:22;19 - 00:19:25;00]
Kent Beck
Hunter s Thompson's gonzo journalism
[00:19:26;10 - 00:19:39;17]
Kent Beck
Where you rode motorcycles with the Hells Angels nice until they almost beat him to death But that's a different part of a story. So so have you thought about those? Simathosy in the augmented world.
[00:19:39;17 - 00:19:49;23]
Jessica Kerr
Oh, yeah. Well now So I I already had the people and the software in the system, especially in a software team because the code is part of the system
[00:19:50;28 - 00:20:09;29]
Jessica Kerr
it learns from you because you change it you learn from it when it throws an exception or a test fails or whatever we build those flows of learnings in and now agents are a Completely third kind of node in this system Because they learn completely differently. Mm-hmm And
[00:20:11;02 - 00:20:47;22]
Jessica Kerr
unlike code you don't program into now do this thing differently Unlike people we don't remember things and have our attitude Shifted and our taste adjusted by everything we've ever seen Mean maybe they do in the training data, but we don't influence that that's a black box But in our in the course of working with agents, we totally influenced them with their context So the memories that they write down or that we write down for them the code and the way it looks totally changes how they learn and their learning is unlike
[00:20:48;29 - 00:21:09;25]
Jessica Kerr
In the ways we use them their learning is on a weirdly short time scale. Mm-hmm like suddenly documentation matters tremendously more Because people we really only read the docs for a project when we start Yeah, and so when a new person starts maybe that happens Well to twice a year
[00:21:09;25 - 00:21:11;01]
Kent Beck
or as a last resort
[00:21:11;01 - 00:21:32;18]
Jessica Kerr
or as a last resort and even but then it's out of date Because it's only read once or twice a year But now the agent needs to start from scratch in that project and read that documentation every 15 minutes or an hour So suddenly that documentation is getting used regularly and that's why we can keep it up to date
[00:21:32;18 - 00:21:34;22]
Kent Beck
Because it's actually worthwhile.
[00:21:34;22 - 00:21:47;05]
Jessica Kerr
It's so it's worthwhile and we notice when it's wrong Because the agent gets dumb and when it gets dumb you look at the wider system And so we are stewards of its environment
[00:21:48;25 - 00:21:54;18]
Jessica Kerr
and Yeah, and we noticed when it gets some and then I'm always asking it. Okay, what made you think that?
[00:21:55;29 - 00:22:07;15]
Jessica Kerr
And usually it can tell me okay Sometimes I suppose sometimes it's wrong, but generally it can be like well I read this document over here and it says this and I'm like, okay, let's
[00:22:08;19 - 00:22:21;22]
Jessica Kerr
spin off a sub agent to update that document and and Actually often I'll just slash clear update the document start over. Yeah, I love that That's the other thing agents can forget and people can't
[00:22:23;00 - 00:22:24;14]
Kent Beck
Yeah,
[00:22:25;19 - 00:22:27;00]
Kent Beck
and I think we're not
[00:22:28;23 - 00:22:38;03]
Kent Beck
As soon as you said that I realized oh I I'm not using that nearly enough Mm-hmm The this this idea that coding is free
[00:22:38;03 - 00:22:41;05]
Jessica Kerr
now, you know if parenting works like this
[00:22:42;21 - 00:22:46;24]
Jessica Kerr
If you're gonna have an interaction with with a kid and be like
[00:22:47;29 - 00:22:49;14]
Jessica Kerr
Fuck that didn't work slash clear
[00:22:50;16 - 00:22:55;01]
Jessica Kerr
rewind say Reload my game from before you came in the door.
[00:22:55;01 - 00:22:56;19]
Kent Beck
Let me take a breath.
[00:22:56;19 - 00:23:01;14]
Jessica Kerr
Let me step one be happy to see you Step to ask you to pick that stuff up
[00:23:03;15 - 00:23:08;04]
Kent Beck
Yeah, but it's not I mean human relationships are not reversible in that same kind of way,
[00:23:08;04 - 00:23:21;12]
Jessica Kerr
right So agents have completely different flows of learning. How do we help them communicate to us? And then how do we learn about how they work? There's so many different loops in here
[00:23:21;12 - 00:23:30;12]
Kent Beck
Yeah, yeah, I think that how do we get agents to communicate to us? in ways that are leveraged
[00:23:31;13 - 00:23:35;05]
Kent Beck
That's a wide-open question right now. Mmm. I mean it's
[00:23:36;15 - 00:23:41;25]
Kent Beck
Whatever May 2026. So maybe in two weeks we'll have that one solved but
[00:23:43;10 - 00:23:47;15]
Jessica Kerr
Well somebody will The future is not evenly distributed
[00:23:47;15 - 00:23:49;24]
Kent Beck
true currently
[00:23:50;25 - 00:23:52;01]
Kent Beck
If I look at
[00:23:54;06 - 00:23:59;04]
Kent Beck
Especially a multi-agent system if I try and keep track of
[00:24:00;14 - 00:24:08;05]
Kent Beck
All of the now I kick off and sub agent to do this and I and I'm just I'm reading and Pretty soon now. No, I can't do it
[00:24:08;05 - 00:24:10;05]
Jessica Kerr
yesterday at Olicon
[00:24:11;18 - 00:24:20;04]
Jessica Kerr
Charity had a bunch of stickers about the human in the loop about it's my loop. Uh-huh, right? I'm in charge here Yeah
[00:24:22;04 - 00:24:25;19]
Jessica Kerr
And Corey Quinn said sometimes the loop could become a news
[00:24:28;01 - 00:24:38;11]
Jessica Kerr
Which is true if you start if you start caring at the wrong level if you start trying to understand everything it did That's almost never useful
[00:24:39;12 - 00:25:01;13]
Jessica Kerr
Certainly not in our general Certainly not in our general quote coding practice You don't want to drill in at that level and the other time is when it's like oh, I counted this you go test it for me No, that's the news Don't stick your head in that Tell that thing to test it itself and if it doesn't know how to test it itself then it's time to have it Write that playwright script or whatever.
[00:25:01;13 - 00:25:05;20]
Kent Beck
Yeah, so by the time you got to programming
[00:25:06;24 - 00:25:15;27]
Kent Beck
Seems like the playbook for How how to do good programming was fairly established is that fair to say
[00:25:15;27 - 00:25:32;11]
Jessica Kerr
it was probably established somewhere But that doesn't mean it was in the particular culture that I was programming in. Okay, cuz they're all very uneven So we had established procedures We would we would write
[00:25:33;12 - 00:25:37;11]
Jessica Kerr
Test code to exercise our functions and then we would delete it
[00:25:39;13 - 00:25:41;14]
Jessica Kerr
Because CI was not a thing, okay
[00:25:43;00 - 00:26:15;18]
Jessica Kerr
We had version control, but it was if you lock the file no one else could change it, right? That was different We had internal libraries and that was it Didn't have open source going on right? We had strong coding standards like you could make your code look like everyone else's code and we were writing and see and Then later I realized oh RC looks just like cobalt hahaha Because this this software was written by cobalt programmers who had just learned C Later we switched to Java and guess what our Java looked like
[00:26:15;18 - 00:26:18;13]
Kent Beck
Yeah, exactly
[00:26:19;15 - 00:26:24;02]
Jessica Kerr
so the and that's That's okay. I mean
[00:26:25;25 - 00:26:43;12]
Jessica Kerr
I Used to tell people what programming language should you use? Well, whichever one you already know That's the one you're gonna be best at but now it's a little different. Which one is the agent good at right? Has a lot to do with it. But what I mean what I know and can read when I need to is also valuable well and
[00:26:44;21 - 00:26:59;06]
Jessica Kerr
Understanding a language understanding of runtime or two different things Yes, right because if I'm actually gonna operate this if I'm gonna put this capability out into the world I need need it to do more than just meet my requirements. I needed to run smoothly
[00:26:59;06 - 00:27:02;24]
Kent Beck
Yeah, suddenly p99 latency matters in a way that maybe
[00:27:02;24 - 00:27:12;03]
Jessica Kerr
yeah and JDM expertise is a thing Yeah, and they're running node processes. There's a lot of variation than that. Yeah
[00:27:13;26 - 00:27:20;02]
Jessica Kerr
Right so so that it still matters what we know, but it also matters what the agent knows
[00:27:22;00 - 00:27:26;22]
Jessica Kerr
And like that software you were talking you're talking about some software earlier and you would like it was
[00:27:27;26 - 00:27:42;00]
Jessica Kerr
It was telling me all the wrong things and I'm like, well This was some video editing software like well, you should use OBS I better knows how to use OBS better is OBS harder to use Yeah, but if the agent knows how to tell me what to do that makes it easier to use.
[00:27:42;00 - 00:27:42;17]
Kent Beck
Yeah
[00:27:43;23 - 00:27:56;24]
Kent Beck
so there's a flip side to that which is My learning has been accelerated so much Right because I can I can be coding and rest never seen rest before I see a
[00:27:58;09 - 00:28:19;19]
Kent Beck
single quote curly brace slash slash and I can say it what does this mean and I'm asking that question. It's beautiful because I'm asking that question in a concrete situation At a time when I care about it So when it comes back to me and it says well, that's the type of ratio blood edit editor
[00:28:19;19 - 00:28:26;09]
Jessica Kerr
and unlike googling You're not having to translate some generic example to your situation right?
[00:28:26;09 - 00:28:29;00]
Kent Beck
It's interpreting my actual example
[00:28:29;00 - 00:28:30;06]
Jessica Kerr
one of the
[00:28:31;23 - 00:28:36;06]
Jessica Kerr
Younger programmers at honeycomb Ruthie was telling me that they
[00:28:37;24 - 00:28:45;03]
Jessica Kerr
They love this because they are able to learn so much faster because their learning used to be
[00:28:46;16 - 00:29:22;25]
Jessica Kerr
Limited by the people available to answer their questions and now they can go to Claude or whichever for all the easy questions all the generic questions and Then go to the human with the specific. Why do we do it this way? right question after they've got all this background and um Ruthie said the answers come a lot faster Because when they would ask a person they'd be like, I don't quite get it Can you explain it another way a person has to think about it? Mm-hmm Cod is all over that.
[00:29:22;25 - 00:29:25;28]
Kent Beck
Yeah love loves doing it. Yeah
[00:29:27;04 - 00:29:28;20]
Kent Beck
Yeah, I I can remember
[00:29:28;20 - 00:29:32;14]
Jessica Kerr
our flow of learning is highly accelerated in that way if we if we
[00:29:32;14 - 00:29:48;06]
Kent Beck
do if yeah Yeah, I think that's a skill. That's a missing skill that learning When and how and how much to learn? Because it's so much cheaper. We could be doing it much more often
[00:29:48;06 - 00:29:52;29]
Jessica Kerr
But it's tempting to skip that and just assemble the furniture and start using it.
[00:29:52;29 - 00:29:58;18]
Kent Beck
Yep. I got that feature done You want the next feature? Sure, and
[00:29:58;18 - 00:30:03;21]
Jessica Kerr
that's the thing if if we focus on doing the same stuff faster
[00:30:04;24 - 00:30:44;07]
Jessica Kerr
Right, then we are missing the step function. Yes, we get a step function in productivity By an old definition. Yeah, right of of just outputting features outputting features is easy Understanding features is harder Understanding the language and the runtime and what do we need to care about? We have so much opportunity to learn faster, but you gotta take the step back and and Use it right and use the tool in a different way to maximize learning instead of skipping it
[00:30:44;07 - 00:30:53;26]
Kent Beck
Yeah, and and that's a that's a individual contributor skill that's a management skill that I I've wanted to
[00:30:55;11 - 00:31:05;16]
Kent Beck
I Wanted to enhance get with a multiple choice quiz if you want to merge a PR and you have to it goes and looks and says well
[00:31:06;24 - 00:31:16;24]
Kent Beck
What should you have learned from this and then it tests you on that and if you haven't learned it yet? It says no. No, we can't merge this you have to go and learn some more.
[00:31:16;24 - 00:31:20;04]
Jessica Kerr
Oh, okay. Okay, so like a Pre-commit hook.
[00:31:20;04 - 00:31:25;26]
Kent Beck
Yeah, pre-commit hook, which which is based on indeed. Do you understand what you just did?
[00:31:25;26 - 00:31:31;21]
Jessica Kerr
Dr. Nicole Forsgren has a plug-in for Claude That it that will
[00:31:32;28 - 00:31:40;02]
Jessica Kerr
Like as you're working Ask you. Hey, do you have some time to learn something because there's an opportunity here
[00:31:41;16 - 00:31:42;21]
Jessica Kerr
Ruthie uses that too
[00:31:42;21 - 00:31:43;29]
Kent Beck
Hmm.
[00:31:45;02 - 00:31:47;24]
Kent Beck
I think I would find that incredibly annoying but maybe not
[00:31:47;24 - 00:31:49;00]
Jessica Kerr
you can tell it's a buzz off.
[00:31:49;00 - 00:31:49;25]
Kent Beck
Okay good
[00:31:50;29 - 00:31:53;05]
Kent Beck
We can still do that at least
[00:31:53;05 - 00:32:13;26]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, it's there are all these hooks and people use hooks to like remind the agent To do what you said it what what you wanted to do like hey Did you remember to push back about something that's wrong? Did you remember to make a commit? Did you remember to? Write your implementation notes or whatever it is
[00:32:15;01 - 00:32:17;14]
Jessica Kerr
But we can do that for ourselves too in that same place
[00:32:19;06 - 00:32:31;25]
Kent Beck
Yes, and the Opportunities to do that come much quicker than they used to like you could do that every 15 minutes now where? Coding with meat fingers, maybe that happens once a day
[00:32:33;16 - 00:32:36;08]
Kent Beck
Because you're spending so much time getting all the details.
[00:32:36;08 - 00:32:37;20]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, and when we do that
[00:32:38;26 - 00:32:55;05]
Jessica Kerr
especially when we like Go fiddle with our hooks or whatever to to inject this this different workflow and these reminders To I shouldn't have used the word maximize. I hate the word. That's wise to not neglect learning. Yes, um
[00:32:56;11 - 00:32:56;20]
Jessica Kerr
It
[00:32:57;22 - 00:33:01;00]
Jessica Kerr
feels like play yes and
[00:33:02;22 - 00:33:14;07]
Jessica Kerr
In the training at some cultures Play doesn't feel like productivity But I promise Play that feeling of play is a sign that you're learning something
[00:33:15;28 - 00:33:20;05]
Jessica Kerr
And we need a lot of that right now because we do not know what we're doing, right?
[00:33:20;05 - 00:33:25;21]
Kent Beck
When when in the 3x kind of world and when you're in a Explorer
[00:33:27;22 - 00:33:38;17]
Kent Beck
Farting around is a positive good if you're if you have a highly tuned the very precise highly scaled System
[00:33:38;17 - 00:33:40;28]
Jessica Kerr
if you're putting together idea furniture
[00:33:40;28 - 00:33:46;19]
Kent Beck
and somebody wants to come along and say hey, you know I let me fiddle around with the deployment It is
[00:33:46;19 - 00:33:47;25]
Jessica Kerr
drill a hole over here.
[00:33:47;25 - 00:34:03;06]
Kent Beck
Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, you don't up there You can play but you have to find ways to make it safe when you're in the Explorer world You got nothing to lose right and and Learning and trust that little voice that goes.
[00:34:03;06 - 00:34:06;04]
Jessica Kerr
Hey, I wonder I wonder. Yeah, that's
[00:34:07;12 - 00:34:08;15]
Jessica Kerr
That's that's a good signal.
[00:34:08;15 - 00:34:15;17]
Kent Beck
Yeah, I want that instead of hearing of that. I Want any time I say I wonder I wanted to just
[00:34:15;17 - 00:34:18;18]
Jessica Kerr
well now we now we have something to answer. Yeah
[00:34:19;22 - 00:34:33;09]
Jessica Kerr
but often It's it's better to try it Especially when what we're wondering about is how to work with the agents themselves Because that's where we get to play and that's where we get to be in charge and do stuff We never could before
[00:34:33;09 - 00:34:37;16]
Kent Beck
what do you so I've taken a certain amount of heat for
[00:34:38;17 - 00:34:41;05]
Kent Beck
I don't want to I don't want to hear about all this AI stuff.
[00:34:41;05 - 00:34:42;24]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, sorry
[00:34:45;17 - 00:34:47;29]
Kent Beck
Do you get that same kind of pushback
[00:34:47;29 - 00:34:49;09]
Jessica Kerr
um
[00:34:53;04 - 00:34:58;09]
Jessica Kerr
My kids will have none of it kids will not use AI
[00:34:59;20 - 00:35:13;26]
Jessica Kerr
I Mean I get it from from software developers too and I'm like, okay. Well, you don't have to listen to my podcast I'll let you know if we ever put out an episode that's not about AI but that is what's happening right now right that is and it is where we need to learn and it is
[00:35:15;08 - 00:35:19;16]
Jessica Kerr
Terrifying and exciting and I choose to be excited. Yep.
[00:35:20;27 - 00:35:24;03]
Jessica Kerr
I Don't make my kids use it. It's gonna hurt them
[00:35:25;09 - 00:35:30;02]
Jessica Kerr
They're going to need to learn but right now they're like it's terrible for artists
[00:35:31;04 - 00:35:35;17]
Jessica Kerr
Okay, but this is I don't know. It's just this is reality How
[00:35:35;17 - 00:35:47;18]
Kent Beck
did that happen we're supposed to be the Fuddy Daddies we're supposed to be digging our Digging our heels in and the kids are supposed to be doing cool new stuff that we can't understand and
[00:35:47;18 - 00:35:55;22]
Jessica Kerr
well There's so much corporate push and AI shoved in their faces all the time Yeah that no they are rebelling by rejecting it.
[00:35:57;26 - 00:35:57;26]
Kent Beck
I
[00:35:59;06 - 00:36:00;25]
Kent Beck
Wonder how that plays out
[00:36:00;25 - 00:36:05;12]
Jessica Kerr
it was we are conforming to the capitalist bro, Ligar key
[00:36:06;23 - 00:36:08;03]
Jessica Kerr
by leaning into it
[00:36:10;06 - 00:36:15;22]
Jessica Kerr
I Know cool it's so exciting I can still do stuff I couldn't before
[00:36:19;23 - 00:36:20;20]
Jessica Kerr
So I'm gonna use it
[00:36:22;15 - 00:36:22;28]
Jessica Kerr
I'm not
[00:36:24;04 - 00:36:27;07]
Jessica Kerr
not gonna reject something so amazing
[00:36:29;10 - 00:36:31;02]
Jessica Kerr
It's just because
[00:36:33;01 - 00:36:36;11]
Jessica Kerr
It it's also the center of a gigantic bubble, yeah
[00:36:37;25 - 00:36:46;28]
Jessica Kerr
No, I'm in there. I'm participating and that gets us back to some apathy yes, because to understand and improve a some apathy you have to get in it
[00:36:47;28 - 00:37:29;12]
Jessica Kerr
and I define somathesist as a Someone who participates in a somathesi and works to improve it consciously Yeah, and that's what I'm doing as a developer as I improve my code as I level up my team and myself as I build relationships within the team and outside as I improve the observability so I can learn more from my running software and Even more now that I'm working with agents and I'm learning how to work with them better and I'm learning how to get them the context They need and I'm learning how to get them to build the verification systems that we all need to build something useful.
[00:37:31;07 - 00:37:32;29]
Jessica Kerr
I Am a somathesist
[00:37:34;22 - 00:37:39;02]
Kent Beck
Hmm and that's like there's definitely a set of skills there
[00:37:40;21 - 00:37:47;00]
Kent Beck
There's a two-level kind of thinking where you're in the system and also thinking about the system
[00:37:47;00 - 00:37:52;04]
Jessica Kerr
Did we curse on this podcast? Yes, okay, and there's a certain kind of fuck to give to
[00:37:53;09 - 00:37:53;23]
Kent Beck
Yes
[00:37:55;26 - 00:38:03;24]
Kent Beck
Well, that's even back back to the premise of still burning is geeks who still care Yeah, and are still doing something about it.
[00:38:03;24 - 00:38:18;21]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah. Yeah who have not sat back and Said I'm not using AI because it's probably evil Whatever everything is both evil and good depending on how you use it and I'm going to use it in good ways
[00:38:19;26 - 00:38:20;07]
Jessica Kerr
so there
[00:38:22;01 - 00:38:23;16]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, yeah, so we still care
[00:38:25;04 - 00:38:31;16]
Kent Beck
Yeah, this is a tough one. I get the ethical objections to it in terms of
[00:38:32;26 - 00:38:33;27]
Kent Beck
Energy usage.
[00:38:34;28 - 00:38:38;20]
Kent Beck
I think if you're worried about water usage, you should go check the math
[00:38:41;02 - 00:38:44;00]
Kent Beck
I'm I'm also concerned about as an author
[00:38:45;03 - 00:38:49;19]
Kent Beck
Little piece of me is out there in all I
[00:38:49;19 - 00:38:57;28]
Jessica Kerr
wanted to read all my stuff, please. I would like the entire world to think more like me Please please train on my my outfit.
[00:38:57;28 - 00:38:58;08]
Kent Beck
Yes
[00:39:00;20 - 00:39:02;02]
Kent Beck
And you don't need to get paid for that
[00:39:02;02 - 00:39:03;09]
Jessica Kerr
I don't get paid for now
[00:39:04;22 - 00:39:15;22]
Jessica Kerr
you do get some royalties, but but Everybody knows that writing a book is a labor of love and a service and that's why we applaud people for it Because you don't get paid enough
[00:39:17;04 - 00:39:18;19]
Kent Beck
Okay, I just all right.
[00:39:18;19 - 00:39:22;22]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah, so no I don't write for the money I might get some
[00:39:23;23 - 00:39:27;21]
Jessica Kerr
I Don't know. I think I have eight dollars in patreon subscribers Congratulations
[00:39:31;12 - 00:39:38;21]
Jessica Kerr
And and and it's a boy at graceful.dub well, that's video a video is a different value prop um
[00:39:39;24 - 00:39:45;02]
Jessica Kerr
Now I'm not worried about the plagiarism. I totally want my output to be part of what the world is
[00:39:45;02 - 00:40:07;16]
Kent Beck
Yeah, I've recently switched so I have this the metacognition project called thinkies and recently switched this to make them more open because I'd like them to be Represented in if I go and ask all the models what are thinkies the answers come back wildly wrong
[00:40:08;26 - 00:40:10;03]
Kent Beck
By my standards, right?
[00:40:10;03 - 00:40:11;15]
Jessica Kerr
I would like them to be more right.
[00:40:11;15 - 00:40:14;24]
Kent Beck
I'd like them to be more right and dad Look, I believe in credit.
[00:40:14;24 - 00:40:17;14]
Jessica Kerr
Yeah Yeah, like the search engine ones
[00:40:19;16 - 00:40:22;23]
Kent Beck
So I am my my thinking is coming around
[00:40:24;01 - 00:40:24;02]
Kent Beck
I
[00:40:26;02 - 00:40:28;22]
Kent Beck
Mean and it's clearly impossible
[00:40:29;24 - 00:40:30;29]
Kent Beck
to attribute
[00:40:32;22 - 00:40:37;24]
Kent Beck
Okay, open I AI made a hundred billion dollars and I get 14
[00:40:40;11 - 00:40:43;14]
Kent Beck
That's the that's the appropriate slice of it
[00:40:43;14 - 00:40:46;05]
Jessica Kerr
Ours is the work not the fruits
[00:40:46;05 - 00:40:59;14]
Kent Beck
So here's what I here's what I worry about. What is my incentive? I I I was in the middle of writing a book about software design and augmented development and
[00:41:00;25 - 00:41:03;19]
Kent Beck
Got some bad news and sat back and thought
[00:41:04;23 - 00:41:19;26]
Kent Beck
Do I really want to be doing this? What what is my incentive? To write this book at all is gonna go Into its grit. It's gonna be grist for the mill for this thing That's gonna make somebody else a whole bunch of money.
[00:41:19;26 - 00:41:21;09]
Jessica Kerr
It's also gonna be out of date in two
[00:41:21;09 - 00:41:29;19]
Kent Beck
months, but but what? The principles won't yeah the the Like what is my incentive here?
[00:41:30;20 - 00:41:32;22]
Kent Beck
why am I why am I busting my hump
[00:41:33;25 - 00:41:47;11]
Kent Beck
and writing a book is really hard work and so Yes, I mean I have internal incentive to do it But I don't like the feeling that
[00:41:48;12 - 00:41:54;21]
Kent Beck
I Don't like the feeling that other people will profit Economically and I won't
[00:41:54;21 - 00:42:13;05]
Jessica Kerr
oh, yeah, I'm over that Okay, I just don't have that fairness bug as long as I'm doing okay and like writing and contributing the community Gets me better jobs Good enough. I just need enough and it doesn't hurt my feelings for someone else to profit. That's their problem
[00:42:14;09 - 00:42:16;27]
Kent Beck
Okay, well we'll work on this
[00:42:16;27 - 00:42:22;15]
Jessica Kerr
now The idea that the world is fair or I
[00:42:23;25 - 00:42:39;13]
Jessica Kerr
Or ever should be is It causes a lot of suffering Should we try to make the the our little piece of the world more fair to the people in it? Yes Should we expect the world to be fair? I don't want to be miserable
[00:42:40;13 - 00:42:49;16]
Kent Beck
Okay, so so let me take a an analogy. I would like more Of the money in the music industry to go to artists
[00:42:49;16 - 00:42:54;13]
Jessica Kerr
I would also like that and this is why my kids won't use AI because none of the money goes to the artists
[00:42:54;13 - 00:43:01;15]
Kent Beck
and I'd like less of a go to go to labels and So in and it's an incentives problem what it
[00:43:01;15 - 00:43:04;02]
Jessica Kerr
so I will go buy the t-shirt Okay.
[00:43:04;02 - 00:43:07;00]
Kent Beck
Yeah. Yes, that's that's a thing you can do
[00:43:08;16 - 00:43:09;19]
Kent Beck
But I would like
[00:43:11;06 - 00:43:16;27]
Kent Beck
I Would like more musicians to have more incentive to get their stuff out there
[00:43:17;28 - 00:43:22;03]
Jessica Kerr
Oh, I would like more musicians to have more resources to get their stuff out there
[00:43:23;17 - 00:43:36;07]
Jessica Kerr
Now I'd rather just we gave people more resources period all the time and then they could get their stuff out there and make more music and art and craft more code like a Testium cabinet. Um
[00:43:38;04 - 00:43:38;15]
Jessica Kerr
Uh
[00:43:42;24 - 00:44:06;27]
Jessica Kerr
I don't need people to have an incentive to do what they're inspired to do and I don't need a Monetary incentive to to write stuff that helps people have more success in software. I Just need the resources like enough money to send my kids to college so that I can do that and I don't have to
[00:44:07;27 - 00:44:10;28]
Jessica Kerr
Spend all my time on a second job or something
[00:44:12;18 - 00:44:18;25]
Jessica Kerr
I just need the resources to be able to do it and let the inspiration let the motivation be intrinsic
[00:44:20;11 - 00:44:24;25]
Kent Beck
Yeah, I suppose that's that's where I land and then then the question is
[00:44:24;25 - 00:44:36;18]
Jessica Kerr
no No, does that mean that I don't if you asked me to vote, you know If I had some influence on whether the money went to the artists or the record companies I would vote for the money to go to the artists but I But
[00:44:38;06 - 00:44:42;12]
Jessica Kerr
I'm not going to not participate in the system just because it's not fair enough
[00:44:44;22 - 00:44:45;05]
Kent Beck
Yeah,
[00:44:46;12 - 00:44:46;26]
Kent Beck
all right,
[00:44:48;01 - 00:44:50;04]
Jessica Kerr
that's my philosophy it's for me,
[00:44:50;04 - 00:44:51;11]
Kent Beck
okay
[00:44:52;13 - 00:44:53;23]
Kent Beck
last question Jess
[00:44:55;00 - 00:44:58;25]
Kent Beck
What about this whole situation scares you enough to wake you up at night?
[00:45:00;23 - 00:45:04;20]
Jessica Kerr
I Have two kids to put through college and I can't
[00:45:05;26 - 00:45:11;05]
Jessica Kerr
Look around and say I'm gonna have a job available to me in any city that makes the kind of money I want to make
[00:45:13;20 - 00:45:28;22]
Jessica Kerr
It's the jobs are different now the market is different I do think that demand for software will Increase compared to what it is today like drastically We will make so much more software because it's cheaper, but that's gonna take a while
[00:45:29;27 - 00:45:30;24]
Jessica Kerr
and right now
[00:45:31;25 - 00:45:43;11]
Jessica Kerr
For the software that people do demand and pay for That can be done by ten times fewer people in the right situations But that's okay
[00:45:44;16 - 00:45:52;00]
Jessica Kerr
Somebody's got to design the IKEA furniture Yes Somebody's gonna write those instructions and decide
[00:45:53;01 - 00:46:02;06]
Jessica Kerr
what how the shelf should fit together and make sure it does and And so I'm gonna get even better that part of the job
[00:46:03;17 - 00:46:05;02]
Jessica Kerr
and when a robot
[00:46:06;18 - 00:46:07;25]
Jessica Kerr
Takes away factory work
[00:46:09;16 - 00:46:27;24]
Jessica Kerr
Some people got to install the robot and no other robot works So personally, I'm not interested in model development But I am very interested in the harness and the context and how we observe what they're doing and improve that There's plenty of work
[00:46:30;05 - 00:46:32;21]
Jessica Kerr
But yeah the markets not not what it was and that does keep me up
[00:46:32;21 - 00:46:33;29]
Kent Beck
Thank
[00:46:35;11 - 00:46:40;01]
Kent Beck
you so much for being a guest on still burning and
[00:46:41;24 - 00:46:43;02]
Kent Beck
Yeah, we'll go from here
[00:46:43;02 - 00:46:44;12]
Jessica Kerr
thank you for continuing to care
[00:46:46;16 - 00:46:50;14]
Kent Beck
I Do it's a little too much sometimes Yeah
[00:46:51;19 - 00:46:58;22]
Jessica Kerr
I'll take it over not caring Right like not wanting anything is one of the worst things. Yeah Yeah You
[00:47:00;20 - 00:47:00;21]
Jessica Kerr
You