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After the Vows is a podcast about the real challenges that arise in marriage after the honeymoon phase fades. Hosted by Joe & Karen Coffey, each episode offers honest conversations about growing together through every season of marriage. New episodes drop every Thursday, offering real talk, real struggles, and real hope—whether you're newly married or decades in.
Welcome to After the Vows, a podcast from Christ Community Chapel about the challenges that show up in marriage after the honeymoon ants. I'm Joe Coffey, and together with my wife Karen, we will gather in each episode with some friends just to talk about the real issues that happened in every marriage. I hope you'll join us. Hey, everybody. Welcome to today's episode of After the Vows. Uh, today's episode might not be appropriate for children. So if you are listening with kids, if you just pause it, have them leave. Or you could listen to this later on when they're not around. Uh, today's episode, uh, we're entitling healing, uh, after infidelity and we have, uh, special guest the way of our normal. My normal guest, which is my wife Karen. Hello. Thanks for coming. Uh, and then Micah and Jessica Irwin, who have been involved with marriage ministry for many years here. And, uh, so we're so glad to have you guys. Thank you so much for having us. All right, let me start with this question. Uh, how long you guys been married? 21 years. The whole time. All right, um, Micah, tell me one thing you remember about the day you got married. So I remember and I was looking forward to it. The moment when the doors part, right. And you see Jessica for me, you know, the first time, you'll never forget it. Now, did you cry? Oh, yeah. That's good. Yeah, I was like, I think, um, uh, when people are at a wedding, they do that when they see the door open, then they always look back and I always am looking to see because I wantn to see the emotion of. Now, we had our photos taken beforehand, so I saw you before, but it was still pretty stunning. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, now you guys have had an interesting 21 years where you've lived in a lot of different places. So why don't you list off your places then, uh, tell me the most interesting place that you've lived. I will assume your favorite place is Hudson, so we don't even have to ask that. Wrong again, Joe. So for us, we got married in Pennsylvania, spent some time living together, you on a futon. And then came here to Ohio. Then we, uh, were moved with my job to Oklahoma, overseas to Luxembourg and Europe between France, Belgium and Germany. Then we were in Kobe, Japan, and then came back stateside to Alabama, and then finally back here to Hudson in Ohio. And so I would say we have a lot of options, but we wait. Now you were at CCC and then left for how many years? We were gone nine Years and came back. That's great. All right, wait. I'm gonna have Jessica you tell us your favorite, uh, re. Not your favorite place. The most interesting place. I would say Japan had to be in the most interesting place just because I stood out like crazy. I was taller than most people, blonde. I was very pregnant when we got there, so I was like a spectacle for people to look at me. So it was really. It was really kind of interesting. And just learning the language, um, and meeting their culture, um, that was probably one of the most life changing and out of my comfort zone experiences. How long did you live in Japan? Two years. It's a long time. Yeah. Maybe one of the most interesting things from a church standpoint. That was fascinating. They felt super connected to the God of the Old Testament, which here in the US I don't hear that as often. It was because he said they gave us rules. Huh. This is good. This is bad. Japanese live in the box, inside, outside. How it was fascinating. Interesting. We were also there for the big tsunami of 2011. So that happened. That was kind of wild. Forty miles from that Fukushima power plant and the Lord. I just got a desire to go home one day early. M. And so then I ended up being 600 miles away when it actually happened. But we got evacuated out of the country, you know, and that w. Happened. Wow. All right. I didn't know that. Okay, so today's topic is kind of healing from infidelity. You guys have been involved with marriage ministry for, uh, a bunch of years. And I know that it seems like God's giving you the reason we ask you to be our guests here. It seems like God's given you a heart for, uh, marriages, maybe particularly for broken marriages, and an ability to speak into people's lives. And you get involved in people's lives who have gone through this particular brokenness. And when we talk about infidelity, it seems like, uh, that is, maybe, uh, anytime you have the deepest kind of break, you also have the potential for the deepest healing, the deepest grace. Right. So tell, uh, me, like, as you have ministered to people who have, uh, for one reason or another, experienced infidelity. Ah. I guess my first question is, um, one of the common things, I know we have dealt with enough couples is that it seems like the news of infidelity comes out in, uh, pieces. It hardly ever comes out, like, all at once. Uh, is that what you have found? And if so, uh, what. What have you seen? Like, does that damage it more when it comes out in pieces? Because it Seems like you think you have the whole story and then there's more to it. I would say yes, um, we've seen that. And if I had to guess, obviously every situations different. If I had to guess for the one confessing to it, it's hard to say everything all at once. And maybe there's a little self protection there. Right. Um, maybe you don't know what to say, maybe you're not sure how to say it and so you hold back. Um, and maybe not. There's not full disclosure. But as you work through things, questions come up, we start to learn more. You um, start to process through it and you understand a little bit more about it. But I would agree with that. Yeah. I'd add that similar to all of our sin nature, at least I have is you want to downplay right m. How bad it was, how bad it is, how evil I am. And um, it is rarely an overnight thing. Right. It is not. Someone wakes up one day and says, hey, you know what? I think I'm in the mood for today. Right. So there's this process that people go through to even understand how did I get here, someplace I never thought I would be. And it takes some exploration and even some help, you know, outside of themselves often to discover that and flush it all out. Yeah. I know in our experience too, we've had people who have had emotional affairs and then that has become a physical affair. Like Karen, how would you describe the difference between an emotional affair and a physical or the damage of an emotional affair to a physical affair? Wow. Um, yeah, that's a good question. I would say the damage would be similar. I think that once you have broken that connection of um, trust, then um, whether it's emotional or physical, it takes some time to rebuild that. Um, I think in this particular culture, the use or misuse of emotional affair is one that I'd like to discuss with you guys just because I think it's so easy to get distracted with other relationships, whether it's online or whether it's at work or. And the more that your emotions turn from your spouse, you are taking those steps that Micah mentioned. Away really from building into the marriage. Yeah. Because you're giving your heart away slowly. Right, Right. Yeah. Uh, okay, so for you guys too, let me maybe bouncing around in different places, but, um, where does, in your experience with couples, where does pornography fall in the whole infidelity spectrum? Mhm. Yeah. For me. Ah. As Karen, you alluded to this process. There is a. A part of our heart. Right. A part of our soul that the design that God has for marriage is that two people become one person. Right. And he has designed us to be fulfilled by that other person in every way that another person can give. And pornography making connections with other people and starting to fill those things that that other person was designed to do, uh, it's another one of those things that people can use to start to put anything else in place of what their spouse should be providing. And I would say its a very sneaky one because its easy to justify it, because I don't feel like Im hurting anyone. But you make a connection, whether you're in the same room with someone or not. So in the case of pornography, you're making a connection, and it may be your mind is connecting, your body is connecting to something that, um, someone thats not even there. And now all of a sudden youve given yourself to that person, but in your mind you think, well, I havent actually done anything with someone else, and so I can kind of justify it. And so I think its been, um, a huge precursor to a lot of the things being acted out. We know that with drugs, for example, you can start small, but you continually need more and more ye. So pornography might be an entry drug, right? Rightair. Right. Okay. Absolutely. All right. So when, uh, an affair comes to light, uh, I know that there are different stages of grief when someone dies. Are there different stages that people that you've seen couples go through as they've tried to, uh, to just understand it and, and then come to grips with it and then start to heal? Yeah, I think that obviously the initial shock, I mean, this is a traumatic event. And so the initial shock of it, whether it's been found out or it's been confessed. Have you ever known a couple, do you know many couples that have voluntarily confessed it with somebody not knowing it? Yes. Oh, that. And then that usually seems like. Well, it seems like it would be better. I didn'I haven't known anybody who that usually it's found out. Well, I think with believers, I think that's a certain circumstance where probably the Holy Spirit has convicted them. Right. And caused them to desire confession. Um, and so their heart'already in a posture of humility and, and confession. And so, um, I think that can be an easier place to start. Right. Um, and also they havent been found out. And so for the spouse being wounded in the situation, um, to have the humility already there, I think has already started the process of healing. Whereas if you never knew, maybe they would have never said anything. Thats a question in the mind that can kind of haunt people a little bit. But, um, back to what you said earlier about the stages. Initially theres that shock, um, of emotion. Emotions are high, theyre intense. Um, a lot of feelings come out you cant always be prepared for. You dont know how you respond. Um, and so thats kind of that initial thing. And then people begin to go into the process of the questions why I need to figure this out. How did we get here? Um, and that brings up a certain grief. And I think, I think one of the things if we talk about grieving, one of the major, um, parts that people grieve is the innocence that they've lost in their marriage. As you know, a child who's exposed to too much loses some of their innocence. Your marriage has now lost some of the innocence that was at play in the beginning. Um, and you kind of have put that marriage to death. Now you need to restart something new. Now it seems like in the couples that I've dealt with, uh, there are two things that go on. One is the betrayal. Uh, the other is the deception. Um, and sometimes it seems like those are two separate things and they both need to be dealt with, uh, at different times and in different ways. Like if, like the deceptionuse there's a lot of, uh, you know, you can't carry on an affair for very long without deception being involved. So somebody feels like not only have they been betrayed, but they've been played the fool. So which one of those do you start with? How do you deal with one? And does it bounce back and forth or. That's what makes, I think it's so hard to heal after something like that's happened. Do m. Well, it feels like, um, one way to simplify that is how do you rebuild truste? Uh, the deception has broken trust. And so how do you. I, uh, like what you said, Jess, about um, how do you go back and restart? Mhm. And with that you restart with rebuilding trust. Find a platform for that. But I'm not sure what that would look like. Yeah, yeah, we need, we will uncover that more in just a minute. I need to get more into that. Um, all right, so tell me. Wait, I'm sorry, I got us off the stages. So you start with things, uh, are blowing up. Then what's the next stage? Yeah, I think those first 48 hours, one of the things that we encourage couples with, it's very tempting to just want to make a decision. Life is different. And now we do what? Right. And you have to remember this is A critical moment in your marriage s history. And just like you would not buy a house on a whim or do some big international vacation on whenim, you need to stop, let those high intensity emotions that Jessica talk about fade, settle. And then you need to start asking yourself, return to the goal. What is the purpose of our marriage? What did God put us two together for? And what do we want our marriage to be characterized by? And thats a little bit maybe to your last question, where you can start to identify. Here are some things that didnt go like we wanted them to. For them to go well, what needs to be different? Um, we had a counselor. Wait. That's a ton of good stuff. Let me go. Let me stop though. Those first 48 hours. The other thing I found that, uh, who they tell, like right then is that they need somebody, a confidant, whatever. Like, what do you recommend to somebody? Because who they tell can make or break the. A lot can be m. Uh, can make or break the first 48 hours. Absolutely. This. Sorry. Bulldozing in Micah. Ah, coming ahead. Um, we ask people to consider who would God use to speak wisdom into your life? Who would bring constructive counsel to the situation? Because one of the temptations is especially for the injured party. They're both hurting. However, let's say the spouse, uh, who had not committed the faire per se. One of the temptations is you want to build an army, right? You want to feel validated in your pain that this is the worst thing that could have happened and you want some support. And the temptation is to go running and telling the rooftops, blasting it out on social media. Can you believe? And one of the things we ask people to remember is, and this is as I'm talking to that person, it's a tough ask. But now more than ever, you need to protect your spouse. You need to create that safe environment for them to regrow, rebond. And so be very cautious with who you tell. You may be tempted to bring in family, but are they going to bring in wisdom? Are they going to be supporting or are they going to start building a side? And so we, uh, often counsel folks. We might talk about counseling later, but then also pick one, just start with one and then assess. Are you getting wisdom? Are you getting wise counsel? You might need to add another if you want to balance some perspectives. But the goal, again, is the restoration of the marriage with who you tell. Yeah. And I would say that there may be other people in your life who notice a huge change has happened. Um, and they may Want to help you in some way. And the help is great. Bring people in, into help with the kids or help with your house because you may be devastated in those moments, and that's a great help. But the ones you seek counsel from, the ones you ask to be a voice in the situation, make those voices very few. And make sure they are pointing you toward the gospel, pointing you back toward God's plan for marriage, um, on the side of your restoration. And not you go get yours. Because it's easy to tell someone you love, I want you to be happy and I want you to feel better, because that's truly what you want when you love someone. But oftentimes it's the harder message to say, God wants restoration here, and God wants you not to get even. God wants you not to just, um, um, walk out bitterness or unforgiveness or anger. You know, he wants the fruits of the spirit for you. And so someone who'going to draw you back toward the truth is someone you want to bring into this situation. Maybe slly different way to end. That is, and you said it in your shermon yesterday, God is always doing something. He is multitasking. And the person that you bring into this needs to have a perspective. We know God allows suffering, bad things happen to good people. And that question is why? And someone that has the perspective to know that God is bringing glory to himself. He is moving us to a more wonderful place and relationship than we could have imagined through pain. Right. And you need someone that has that perspective, that can step back and ask and pray. God, what are you trying to show us here? What are you trying to do in this marriage? Yeah, you need somebody to give them the, the hope and the vision actually can get even better, can heal better. All right, now, as a couple tries to do a forensic on what got him to that place, what are the steps they do for that? How do you do, uh, a forensic in the midst of that kind of pain and devastation? Because that's what's needed. And then I'm gonna ask, then I'm gonna have another question, which is, how do you establish trust? We got to get back to Karen's point. How do you establish trust? How do you move on without getting, staying stuck, but not minimize and move too quickly. There are a lot of couples where I know the offending, uh, party, it's hard to differentiate, but, uh, once to just go, okay, I ask for forgiveness. I apologize. Can't we just move on? And the one that has been devastated is, needs to set that Speed. Mhm. Okay, let's go back to the forensic one. So I just have you think about all those. Uh, yeah, would. I would say that the first thing that needs to be done because it's really a heart search. Go to the one who knows your heart. We go to God and say, God, show me where along this line we started to derail. Bring me back all the way. And he's faithful to do that. He's faithful to reveal the things that maybe we were blind to see or we had been justifying. And he starts to walk you back through that process. And the beautiful thing is he does it with such grace. He does it in a personal way that um, is healing. And in this kind of trauma you need deep healing. And, and his type of healing is complete and full and, and he wants to draw all that impurity, I think. And uh, both parties need healing. Absolutely. Both people are hurting. Right. In maybe in different ways. Right, right. Um, but this is a break. And I think David's example in Psalm 51 um, is a beautiful way to start to process what happened. This is right after hes confronted by Nathan about Bathsheba. And David begins to say, lord, purify my heart, renew a right spirit. Bring me back to a place of cleansing and healing and show me what it is. And I, I think thats a good template of humility to go before him and say give me wisdom. Um, how as I retrace party do that, the offending party, the offended like to do, to ask them to do a forensic on themselves. They want to do a forensic on the. What happened to you? Why did you do what you did? And I can't believe. So how does that happen? I will go back to talking with people again about that. One flesh. Realize you are one flesh united. And there is both. Right. There was a door opened. Mhm. That proactivity in your marriage investment, regular continuous investment in your marriage is required. There is someone, it's not just you guys. There is a spiritual element, you know, in one Peter it talks about the enemy is like a prow, uh, a lion prowling and looking to devour. So there's someone that knows each of you, your temptations, your vulnerabilities. And it's just small little touches along the way. And if you both are not working to not allow him to open those doors, then uh, the fault goes with both. And it's not an easy thing to hear for the one who feels offended. Hey, I didn't do anything in this, uh, I think uh, just to Give an example. I think, uh, for me, one of the things I had to learn over the years was just to be able to study Jessica, to know when was she becoming vulnerable. That's my part. Am I watching her in her spiritual growth and development to know that she is in good health, that she can fight spiritual battles that may come upon her, emotional battles. And so we encourage both to ask God to show them where is it he has an opportunity for you to grow, Confess to Him first. Because when we encourage folks to then have that, um, confession and asking for forgiveness moment, you both are bringing something. Jessica, hit it on the head. It's that humility that both have to say, here's what I did, here is the impact I recognize that it had on you. I understand the pain and the hurt and will you forgive me for that? Yeah. And it may be a process to get there. Obviously, if you, if you are wounded, you need to know your loved before you can open yourself back up and say, what was my part? And, and that's where diving into the grace God has given you, the love he has for you, um, can make that a more safe process. But you may have to work to get there. If you've been really hurt, you guys have articulated that really, really, really well. I think I wanted to add, um, I think when you're doing that deep dive, if you even go back to the beginning when we mentioned, say it's pornography or emotional, uh, affair or even something online, um, the unintended consequence is one of the partners is going to feel lonely. It's going toa feel like something's moving beyond me and I don't understand what it is. They may not even recognize what it is. But the two, I think what Micah says is so true. The two are starting to go down different paths. And the more that that divide happens, I think then those little steps become easier because the one doesn't know why there's distance, but recognizes it and then adjusts. Mhm. Okay. I'm not going to be emotionally vulnerable if using our example, if he's distant, then I can be distant too. And so then that just. That snowballs. Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. All right, so, um, how do you, how do you rebuild trust? That seems like. Well, wait, first, there's a lot of times when I watch a couple that are struggling where one will move close. I think when you said that, uh, that both need to have humility at the same time. Because what happens is that one will grow, will try to move close and the other One will pull away. Then this one finally decides to give up and they move away. And then this one decides to and they seesaw back and forth. And then I always thinking if you could just both come at the same time. Um, but that, that seems like a difficult thing. But like you guys I thought articulated it so well that both have to decide. I'mn I'm gonna seek humility and what God wants for to do inside of me right now and right here. Yeah. We like to ask couples, what is your marriage? 4 what is God? You made a covenant with God with this person. Say this person is the one I'm going to be married to. What is he asking you to leverage this marriage for in this kingdom? His kingdom, for his glory. It is difficult but setting yourselves aside for a moment to focus your marriage back towards him and putting that back up on the offering as a sacrifice. Hey, this thing feels dead, right? Bleeding out. But God, it's yours. It's always been yours. Gave us the wisdom. What is it for? And then I think it starts to help give some specific tangible ways to build trust again. Uh, with humility in place. One of the things we've shared with folks in the past is that if you committed the affair trust is over. You may have gone through your spouse has forg you even of one practice we recommend is behave as though you do not deserve trust. You don't have it. Uh, and what we hope that does for people is it puts them in a mindset, reminds them hey, I'm working on this. Mhm. The other spouse act like they deserve it. Give it freely without requirement. And if you both are putting each other first that we found and in our experiences we try to put each other first has helped trust start to grow again. Because then it's not sort of this requirement checklist that you're just doing. You'actually trying to say, God, I know you can give me peace and confidence to extend trust. I might get hurt again. But in your plan and your timeline, that'okay. You'll give me strength to be through. On the other side, I see this person trusting me. I thought I was completely could never be trusted again. And yet God's grace, God's love is flowing through this spouse that you're experiencing and it creates new life that you believe. Hey, that new better is really out there. Yeah. For the offending party, realizing and maybe accepting the concept that I cannot be trusted is a real big blow, um, to your pride because maybe you know in your heart you feel like you can be or Maybe you have grown and you know you're not going to go out and do this again, but you have to now communicate that intangible ways. And sometimes it just means I'm going to commit to answering the questions you ask. I'm going to be honest and I'm going to lead with honesty instead of secret. Right. Um, it might be like when I go somewhere, I'mn toa tell you where I'm going and how long I'm going toa be there and the details of it so that I can provide you with an as much information as possible, um, to be able to help you feel more secure. And for the offended party, it starting to take stock of what are the things that. When I see them do those things, it makes me a little tense inside. I wonder if I can trust them. Maybe I see them on the computer late at night or they take a phone call and they go outside and that makes me. And it may be innocent. Right? But. But you don't know that. Right? So identifying those things that tear down the trust and then also coming up with, okay, so if you go somewhere, what would make me feel better about knowing where you're at? Like, take a picture and send it. And at first it can be more intense. Like, why do I have to do these things? You know? But. But if you have that focus, oh, I'm trying to build trust. That's the point. It's not to humiliate and it's not to hold it over the other person's head because we're working together towards something. It's not just me lording it over you, um, but we're actually working on something together. So what is that? What are those things? What does that look like? It's different for each person. You have to start to figure out what that looks like for you. What would be like, we are coming to the end of our time. But, uh, what would be some advice you'd give for preventing. You know, I think it's a mistake for anybody to think, oh, I would never do that. I don't think anybody thinks they'renna do it until it happens. So I don't. So, uh, what are some, uh, some advice to give to anybody at whatever stage they in their marriage to prevent, uh, infidelity from happening? Me first start, I think proactively investing in your marriage. Talking about almost like you would a small business, hey, what are our goals? What do we want to be like? What does winning look like? It's something Jessica wonderfully brought to me earlier on in our marriage. Hey, I see you spending this time doing goal setting, strategy, thought for work. I'm interested to hear how you're doing that for our marriage. That's a great thing. Yeah, I was am marriage and say that was design for men if men read books on marriage. But it would be like if you did your business like you did your marriage, you'd suck at it. Just because I think guys are much better at, or at least the men I've talked to are much better thinking like that. Okay, so go ahead. That's right. So we've shared that with couples. To say, set goals and track your progress. There's only two ways progress is happening. You'either going backwards or you're going forwards. You've said it before from, uh, the pulpit. There's no in between. You're spiraling down. You're spiraling up. And so by doing some goal setting and stating this is what we want our marriage to look like, these are the things that characterize our marriage. And then double checking yourself, are we achieving that? If not, what is it we need to be doing differently? Because if you're not doing anything, that is not where you should be it. Yeah. Uh, you're spiraling down. Yeah. I would say in this particular type of situation, the way to prevent it is take stock of what your habits are. Am I in the habit with my sin when it's revealed to me? Am I in the habit of justifying it, downplaying it, trying to use softer words? Or am I calling my sin what it is, taking it before the Lord in confession or with each other? Am I confessing the things that, um, I'm offending my spouse in? And then walking through the process of forgiveness. If we're not doing that, you're already on the path, um, to opening doors where a little temptation comes in and you justify and walk into it. It's a slow process and you can already begin to shut those doors to that process. If you regularly ask God to search your heart, confess not keeping secrets, but dealing in honesty with your spouse. And the other thing is intimacy. Taking stock of your intimacy. Is my heart soft toward my spouse, um, emotionally? Because if it's not, if it's hardened towards your spouse, you still need that. So the temptation to go somewhere else is much higher and the same physically, you know, um, if you are not regularly having sex, the temptation to go somewhere outside or to pornography is much higher. So take stock of where your intimacy is at together. Thanks. Um, last thing, I think, and, um, weve Brought it out before, but you guys have seen it happen. I think what, and this is true, not just of the topic we're talking about, but probably throughout our lives, that what we see as a crisis God sees as an opportunity. Because grace, uh, is, uh, I say it a lot from the pulpit that grace is the most powerful thing the world has ever known. And I think that people, uh, need to know who have gone through that, if they ever go through infidelity or have gone through that, that there is hope that they can have a better marriage than they ever had before, even though it doesn't seem like it, but they can because of the power of grace and what God wants, which you guys have brought out so great. Yeah, it transformative. When you are laid bare before the Lord in a deep wound, uh, and you seek healing and his grace and his love, you learn it in a way you've never learned it before. Its very powerful and it will change your life. And I think one thing weve realized, seeing so many different couples and their stories over the years, Im fully convinced theres not a situation God cannot enter and absolutely transform. And its beautiful how that results in praise, in thankfulness, in just, um, deepening your relationship with him and, and then you can begin to have the marriage you always should have had. Um, but maybe you were a little too comfortable, um, in your ways and not really investing. People start to get serious and they start to actually find joy that maybe they never even had before the destruction happened. And Gods grace is so life giving, um, when you taste, taste it in that kind of intense way. So its really beautiful process. And Ive grown to really see when God reveals sin and he brings it out to the light. Ive started to understand that that's a love, that that is a, uh, beautiful thing. Because he really wants to remove that from you and purify you, set you free from that kind of bondage. And so even though its a hard process, it is his love thats doing that. Its something we can be thankful for. Than our God is a God of redemption, restoration. And the stories, as Jessica said, it is just a reminder that who he is. If we focus on that, even in this most difficult thing, theres nothing he cant do. Mhm. Uh, even when you are in this most terrible circumstance, dont be discouraged. Uh, there is hope. Thanks O Micah and Jessica, Karen and I are so grateful for you guys and for the ministry that you'had over the years that you continue to have. And thanks so much for joining us today. Absoutely. Thanks for having us. Uh, thanks for joining us, uh, for this episode of, uh, After the Vows. Uh, listen, if this hit close to home and you want to take a next step, your next step could be, uh, just having a conversation, uh, with somebody like Micah and Jessica, who can help you process him. Had we that through our marriage coaching, uh, there's no curriculum, there's no long term commitment. It can be one meeting, it can be several meetings, but it, uh, can really help. So, uh, you can reach out for that. You can also listen to more episodes of, uh, after the Vows or other, uh, podcasts that we provide. You can find those on our YouTube channel or on our church app. But thanks again for listening to this episode.