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Every product leader has to make them: the high-stakes decisions that define outcomes, shape careers, and don't come with easy answers.
The Hard Calls podcast, hosted by Trisha Price, features candid conversations with product and tech leaders about the pivotal decisions that drive great products and the pressure that comes with it. From conflicting priorities and unclear success metrics to aligning teams and navigating executive expectations, you will hear compelling stories and best practices that drive business outcomes and help you make the Hard Calls.
Real decisions. Real stakes. Real leadership.
Presented by Pendo
Learn more at pendo.io/
Follow Trisha Price on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/
Trisha Price: Hi everyone.
I have an exclusive discount
for Hard Calls listeners to
Pendomonium Pendo's Product Festival
happening March 24th through 26th
2026 in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Listen in at the halfway point today
to get this special discount to the
product festival, bringing today's top
leaders in product, AI and software.
When you're getting ready to decide if
you can work with a company and if they're
a good fit for you and you're a good
fit for them, what's your litmus test
to determine whether the company or the
product leader is really ready for you?
Is ready for a transformation?
Gabrielle Bufrem: They
all want that story.
They want like the outcomes,
they want the results.
They're like, I'm bought into that and
I need to understand are they bought
into what it takes to get those results?
Because everyone is interested in like
staying fit as an analogy, but are
you willing to go to the gym with me?
Like, are we actually signing up for this?
Are you gonna wake up at
5:00 AM and make it there?
Are you gonna really be able
to kind of move because.
That is, I think the bare minimum
the commitment to like, there's
no plan B like this is it.
This is what we're gonna do.
And I need that from the
senior leadership level.
Trisha Price: If you build
software or lead people who do,
then you're in the right place.
This is hard calls, real decisions,
real leaders, real outcomes.
Hi everyone, I am Trisha Price
and welcome back to Hard Calls.
The best musicians, athletes, and
even writers all have coaches to help
them get out of their own way and
reach that next level of excellence.
Product leadership should be no different.
And on today's episode of Hard Calls,
I welcome Gabrielle Bufrem, a former
global product leader who is now a
renowned product leadership coach.
Gabi has partnered with founders,
leaders, and global companies to
push the boundaries of what they
think is possible and help them build
products and teams that people love
and drive real business outcomes.
I personally am continually
impressed by Gabi.
Whether Gabi is surfing or coaching,
she is cool and calm in her
approach to conquering big things.
Making hard calls.
In today's episode, we're talking about
the cultural impact of driving digital
transformation and what product leaders
can do to facilitate transformation.
Welcome to the show, Gabi.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Aw,
thank you so much, Trisha.
That was an incredible intro
and so happy to be here and to
get to talk to you for a bit.
Trisha Price: This is gonna be great.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Gabi, before we jump into the meat
of the discussion today, can you
share a little bit about yourself
to our listeners, about your career
path and how you became a coach?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, absolutely.
So I fell in love with product in college,
actually, which is not super common.
But I was interning for Google.
Before that I was like the
joke in my friend group.
I only did volunteer work.
Everyone was like, will
you ever get a real job?
And I was like, I hope so.
I worked for Google.
I had an incredible manager.
I was on the marketing team
actually, and she was like.
You're a born product person.
And I was like, what is that?
She's like, go spend some time with them
and then tell me, tell me what you think.
And I was like, I can't believe
I can get paid for this.
This is like, so fun.
And that was my beginning
of enchantment with product.
I went back to college.
I actually took four computer
science classes my senior year,
got told I was absolutely crazy.
And since then I built products
across nine different industries
and three different continents.
So I lived in Europe, in Asia,
and also in North America.
And it's been an incredible journey.
I really became a generalist and with that
came the belief that product is a craft
and something that if you work really
hard at and if you really devote time.
You can learn and once you learn,
you can apply it everywhere.
So that was kind of my, my love
for product and how it all started.
I also became a manager really early.
I was, I think 24.
I was like excited, but also terrified,
I think is the right emotion.
And I wanted to be good.
I was like, if I'm gonna do this,
I want this to be great, not only
for me, for the company, but also
for the people that I'm managing.
So I took a coaching
course way back when, and.
After leaving that I was like,
whoa, one day I wanna do this.
This is so impactful.
And I think looking back,
all the stars aligned.
I met all the right people.
I met Marty Cagan early in my
career and he became a mentor
and a really good friend.
I ended up meeting all of
his partners along the way.
I met some other coaches
that I really admired.
When I left my last startup, I
was honestly like not falling
in love with any other product.
And everyone kept telling me like, yeah,
that's because you told us you wanna be a
coach one day, like maybe that day is now.
And that was the beginning
of my transition.
I actually posted on Twitter.
I think I was kind of bored 'cause I was
like looking for my next thing and how I
posted on Twitter and I got a DM from this
girl and she's like, I've been waiting
for you to do this, like, can I hire you?
And I was like.
Ah, that's cool.
Sales, like that would be awesome.
and, and that was the beginning.
Trisha Price: That's a amazing story.
I love your story about getting
into product in college.
I feel like for most of us, you
know, we came out of, of college
in computer science, but fell in
love with the business problem
versus the implementation.
Or you have people who, you know,
went through college, went into some
sort of a marketing role or some sort
of a business analyst role but it's
fascinating that you got involved.
In product in college, which then
makes sense of how you ended up in a
manager role younger in your career.
One, because you're a go-getter and
you're smart and great with people, but
equally interesting in that, you know,
you started right away as an intern
in product, which I think yeah, is,
is not as frequent for most people.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yes, exactly,
and I actually very privileged.
I think like once you find
kind of like your thing, it
just doesn't feel like work.
It feels really, really fun.
And honestly, I think I thought
I had that when I was in product
and then now that I'm a coach, I'm
like, whoa, now I really have it.
This is like really, really fun and
really what I believe I'm meant to do
Trisha Price: Well, it's so special
because now your reach is not just
your product team or the product you're
building and your users or your market.
But it's essentially the whole
world and anyone who gets to
engage with you and your coaching.
And that's that's a great
thing for the craft, as you
said, of product and for you.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Aw, thank you.
Yeah, it feels, it feels amazing.
Plus it's really fun and I get to
work with really smart, awesome
people that all wanna be better.
To your point about like, sports,
like being a very coach driven culture
and like the best athletes in the
world, like they have many coaches.
They don't have only one.
So I, I love that.
Now there's this transition to that
being the case in business too.
Trisha Price: Me too.
I love that.
Well, this show is Hard Calls and
the premise for the show is as a
product leader, we are constantly
faced with hard calls and, and then
we like to drive into like, well,
what helps you make those hard calls?
Is it data?
Is it process?
Is it people?
but before we jump into that,
I'd love for you to share with
us looking back over your career.
What's a hard call that
you've had to make?
What made it challenging and, you
know, how did you make the decision?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, absolutely.
it's a great question.
I love that you start with it because
it is very on theme with the show.
And I'll say, I, I told the, the cho
version of the story already, which
was kind of like my patch of coaching,
but honestly, I, I vividly remember.
Being having left my last startup,
people were like, you're crazy.
The market is not good.
You have a great road, a great company.
They're doing super well.
And I was like, yeah, but I,
I need something different.
Like, I know that it's time.
And I remember talking to many CEOs at
that time, and they were all really great.
Like a lot of them, I was like,
whoa, this is like great business.
I can see the returns.
I would work for this person, all of that.
But still, I like wasn't falling in love.
And it was one conversation I had with
Marty because any big decisions, I
think, like I looked for my mentors
and I, I told him, I was like, yeah,
I'm just like not falling in love.
And he told me, yeah,
because you wanna be a coach.
Like, you told me this.
And like, I think I gave him 20
reasons, Trisha, why I wasn't
gonna do it or why I wasn't ready.
I was like, maybe it's this, maybe
it's that, maybe it's this other thing.
And I think he like
crushed them all and like.
The bear like 10 minutes that he
was just like, no, because of this.
No, because of that.
And then he was like, anything else?
I was like, no.
But I, I really do think it's taking
the plunge from doing something that I
knew I was good at, which was Running
product and being a product leader to
then stepping into a new role of helping
other product leaders do their job
really well and learning marketing and
learning what sales is, and learning
how to operate as a solopreneur and
not have a team around me anymore,
and really taking that plunge and.
I think that it, it felt like a hard
call because it was the unknown, but it
also felt really right, which I think
is kind of the, the magic of product
and making product decisions in general.
It was like the art and the science.
It's like I, I knew what had to be true
for me to do it, and that was the science
part, but I also knew, in my gut that
it was the right instinct and I, I knew
that it was what was gonna bring me joy.
Overall, so I love, I remember
I set like three OKRs for myself
because product people never change.
You know, like we can,
I can be a coach now.
I'm still the same.
I still operate very similarly, but I
wanted to be good at it for my clients.
I was like, if I'm not driving impact,
I don't want this to be my path.
I wanted to like it because I was
like, I used to love what I did,
so like I need to like this too.
and I needed it to be a
good financial decision.
So I set those three OKRs.
I gave myself about three to six
months, and after three months, I
remember having this conversation
with my mom walking at the beach
and being like, I think this is it.
And she's like.
I've known it all along.
Trisha Price: So that's amazing.
I love that you treat your business
of coaching like a product, right?
Yeah.
With clear, measurable outcomes that
you're trying to drive a product
mindset of experimentation and testing.
Before you commit and go all in.
So that's, that's really great.
I love that.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah.
Absolutely.
And then I think I had the final hard
call was like, I had the opportunity
of working with one of my best friends,
who was running design for that company
at the time, and they were just like,
yeah, you've won it, it's yours.
And that's when I said no to that.
I was like, okay, now I
know I'm all in on this one.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
When you give up one of the
best product opportunities, you
know, you're in the right spot.
Yeah.
So, you know, you.
You get to see all kinds of
different companies and help
them transform and Yeah.
You know, every company must transform
to stay relevant in some capacity.
Yeah.
And when you're getting ready to decide
if you can work with a company, and if
they're a good fit for you and you're a
good fit for them, what's your litmus test
to determine whether the company or the
product leader is really ready for you?
Is ready for a transformation?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, great question.
I think everyone is excited
about the results, right?
You tell the story.
Like, one, one that I really love is I
worked with Anir, who is an incredible
now chief product and technology leader.
Before he was head of IT or
VP of it that was long passed.
But like they, they all want that story.
They want like the outcomes,
they want the results.
They're like, I'm bought into that.
And I need to understand, are they bought
into what it takes to get those results?
Because everyone is interested in like
staying fit as an analogy, but are
you willing to go to the gym with me?
Like, are we actually signing up for this?
Are you gonna wake up at
5:00 AM and make it there?
Are you gonna really be
able to kind of moved?
Because that is, I think, the
bare minim the commitment to like,
there's no plan B like this is it.
This is what we're gonna do.
And I need that from the
senior leadership level.
So if I get someone who's a
director of product really wants
to do this, I'm like, excellent.
Let's talk to your manager.
Let's get that buy-in.
Because if we only work with you
and your team, there will be a very
clear glass ceiling that we hit,
and you're gonna ultimately get
frustrated because it's not gonna be
a transformation across the board.
So, that is really the, the beginning.
It's like, do they really want it and are
they willing to put in the work to do it?
Because if the answer to any of those
is no, I don't think I'm the right fit,
and I honestly don't know that they're
ready yet to be going on this journey.
Then in terms of like, me and I, I
tell people, like coaches are awesome.
Like I have a lot of friends who
are product leadership coaches
and product discovery coaches.
And we're all, I mean, I love them.
They're, they're amazing.
And I, I joke that we're all
dessert, you know, in a way, we're
just different type of dessert.
So I tell people like it should
feel as close to magic as possible.
Like it should feel like you
can talk to me about anything.
Yeah, it should feel
easy for you to open up.
And there's like a vibe, there's a
chemistry that is gonna make this go so
much faster if we're able to achieve it.
So I tell people like, you will know it.
You will feel it if I'm
the right person for you.
And if that's the case,
I will feel it too.
And then we're gonna embark on this.
Epic journey together.
Trisha Price: I mean, that's
a little like hiring, right?
I mean, obviously there's skills and
personality, you know, traits that fit
better for certain types of company
and experiences, like if you're in
growth phase or you're private equity,
or you're getting ready to do lots of
acquisitions, there's different experience
that matter, but that vibe together
and like, are we gonna have fun and go
climb this mountain together every day?
Yeah.
has to be there.
So I love that.
That's no different when you're
looking to work with a coach as well.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I think it's exactly that.
It's like that is, that is the
piece that is super special.
I love that you mentioned experience,
because that's one thing, it's like,
I think when you're hiring someone
to help you with your product org,
like they need to have done this.
They need to have been in
those trenches before because
they're acting as your coach.
But there are many times that with my
clients, I tell them like, Hey, this
will save you like 10 hours and like,
I'm interested in you saving 10 hours.
So like, let's go this path.
And they're like, oh, I love that.
So,I think it's this mix of the coaching
plus the advisory that allows people to
get to those results that we all want.
Trisha Price: So they come to you and
they're like, I wanna be more product led.
I want these particular
results, and mm-hmm.
How do you start, what are the
uncomfortable discussions or truths
that you have to help them confront
or even find before you can really
get started with transformation?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, absolutely.
So they, they first tell me,
yeah, like, this is what I want.
And I normally ask them
to get more specific.
So I tell them like, we wave a
magic wand in the next six months
to a year, like what happens?
What's that vision?
And I ask them to describe
that to me for their org for
themselves, for their key people.
And then I tell them to tell me
about what's going on right now.
Right.
And they, they normally, like,
they start with like some vague
things and I'm like, no, no, no.
Get specific.
Like, tell me what's actually
happening because I need to know
like we're, we're in this together,
you know, we're on the same team.
And then I have kind of a lay of the
land, like a gap between today and what
they want or what they think is possible.
And what I love to do is I start off with
this conversation and then an assessment.
So I go through.
All different areas of product, vision,
strategy, how they're coaching their
teams, how the teams are working together,
discovery, collaboration, even the roles,
what they mean at different companies.
And I tell people, like no one goes to
the doctor to know that they're sick.
They go to the doctor
to know what to take.
So, I give them an action plan.
I'm like, Hey, this is what I see and
this is where I think we should start.
And we normally start small, like
we start with the leadership team.
We start with really conveying this
row of what product is and how we
can help them across this team.
And then we start with one pilot team
that can really show what is possible.
And I don't tell people like, this is a
pilot because we're doing an experiment.
This is more like a poster child team.
I'm like, I want your best players
ever here on this team, and we're
gonna train them like athletes.
People tell me, they're like, I've
never worked this much in my life.
I'm like, welcome to being in product.
Like this is what your world is like now.
and we show them results that we
wouldn't have been able to achieve
otherwise, and that gets people excited.
Trisha Price: So I love this idea
of starting with an all-star team.
You really are a coach.
Clearly.
Yes.
And getting success and using that to get
the rest of the company and the leadership
team sort of a blueprint and get them
excited and use that for future teams.
But I know it's not that simple, right?
Like I know there are failures.
I know that there are a lot of
roadblocks that get in the way.
like.
What are your principles about failure
that you, you share with your clients?
When things don't go well?
When even though they pick the best
team and the athletes, you know?
Yeah.
Something stumbles.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah.
Good.
Good question.
I'll say too, like it's not only the
pilot team, so like when I'm coaching
the, I coach the pilot team myself because
actually like they can't really fail.
Like if they fail, this transformation
is doomed, in my opinion.
Trisha Price: But that's not
where you see most the failure
because they're all stars.
They're committed.
You're hands on with them.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah
they're like the bootcamp.
Yeah.
Trisha Price: The failure comes next?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah.
Yeah.
It comes like way more I think at
the, at the more leadership level, at
the stakeholder engagement, and that
is when I work really closely with
the product leaders and the team.
And a lot of the times, if
it's a big transformation,
like I'll fly to their office.
And I'll spend a week with these
people because it's not only about
the technology department being
bought into this, it's about other
people being bought into this too.
Because I tell people like,
we can't really play alone.
Like product is a team sport
and it's a team within, like
product design, engineering.
It's also a team with the marketing
team and the sales team, sales
team, the ops team, and the CEO.
Everyone needs to be bought in
and there's them saying that
they're bought in and then there's.
Like them actually getting bought in.
So I think that it's really
about having this constant
communication, constant conversation.
And what I tell my clients is like,
there are a lot of times where we're
gonna take two steps forward, feel
really awesome, and then take one
step back and then be like, oh my
God, I can't believe we're back here.
But we are already further
along than we were before.
So, the way I like to describe
transformation is kind of like.
If you've taken like a dirt road
to a beautiful beach, like I love
like a remote experience, right?
So I'm like, great.
But the road is bumpy.
It's normally not paved.
Rarely is there's like holes everywhere.
It's hard.
You don't have the right car to be on it.
And then eventually.
You get to a waterfall and then you
get to maybe a coconut water, and
then you get to another waterfall and
then finally you make it to the beach.
So it's really about like embracing
that this is a journey and that
failure is a, is a part of it.
I don't, I don't think you should strive
for it at all, but understanding that,
the way I like to frame it is like,
if you're failing and not learning
anything, then you're really failing.
Yeah.
If you're failing but you've
learned and you can iterate and
you can do better, then that was
a failure maybe worth having.
Trisha Price: Yeah, and, and as you
work with these leadership teams who are
changing how they think and changing how
they operate, what's the biggest hurdle
for them to get over in moving to a true
product mindset and a product approach?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, I think
that there is, there's a few, but
I, I'll talk about a couple of them.
The first one that I think
it's, is trust, right?
They need to be willing to trust
their teams and their teams need to
have the trust of the organization.
So those are two separate things.
They're, they're kind of
similar, but they're different.
And a lot of the times I tell their,
their people, that you can't expect your
organization to trust you because you
haven't been delivering what they want.
If you had, we wouldn't be here and
we wouldn't be in this position.
So what I tell them is that we
need to earn their trust, and it's
not like we're starting from zero.
We're starting from like minus a hundred.
We're having to work with
like trust debt, basically.
Yeah.
And the best way to do
this is by showing results.
Or what the business cares about.
So if it's like more sales,
amazing, let's get on it.
Let's help them with that.
And then once we start helping,
they're like, oh, okay.
Like maybe there's something to
these people, like they still
don't understand us and it's fine.
Yeah.
But they're like, okay, maybe
we can give them a little more
rope and then a little more rope.
And that's how we start kind of.
Understanding and gaining
their, their space, I would say.
And then trust with their teams.
And I often say like for you to have
an empowered team, which is a team
that is actually tasked with solving
problems that are really important
for the business and for the user.
Because I tell people, like,
making users happy is super easy.
Like, you know, buy me like
a boat where I'll be happy.
Like that sounds great.
But like a product without the business
is a hobby and we need that intersect.
So giving a team a problem
like that to solve, you need
to trust that they can do it.
And it's not just about like
handing it off and being like,
okay, now we're empowered.
Like empower teams actually need
way more management, I would say
way better management around.
Truly coaching them on
what success looks like.
How do they become the best
product person in that team?
How do they collaborate with
design and engineering to shift
something that people wanna use
that actually really works for them?
Trisha Price: Registrations for
Pendomonium 2026 are now open.
We are bringing together the most
inspiring minds in product and leadership
who will challenge your thinking on
everything from product-led growth.
To the future of product to gaining
value from your AI investments,
it is likely you'll even run into
some of our guests from Hard Calls.
The product festival is designed to spark
curiosity, create conversation, and build
community while spotlighting the newest
tech for software experience leaders.
I would like to invite you to join me in
Raleigh, North Carolina from March 24th
to 26th with an exclusive 30% discount
when you use the code "hardcalls30".
That's "hardcalls" lowercase.
And the numbers 30.
Get your discounted ticket
at pendo.io/pendomonium.
See you there.
There's a couple of just
really great nuggets in what
you just talked about first.
I love that when you talked about trust,
you didn't say trust to ship a feature.
Oh no, you said trust to deliver a
business outcome, which means you're
trusting them to do proper discovery,
to do experimentation, to figure
out what the feature is, not tell
them what the feature is, and then
celebrate because they delivered
it, and then be mad when it doesn't
actually drive the business outcome.
So I love that like your
immediate trust was not will they
ship your immediate trust was.
Can I trust them to deliver
this business outcome?
Yeah.
And then I love the second nugget
that you shared around empowerment and
trust doesn't mean hands-off management
because what you, what I just said around
what you mentioned, taking a business
outcome and then figuring out what.
Features to ship to deliver that business
outcome is not a muscle that a lot
of these teams who are going through
a transformation have yet, and they
may not have enough exposure to what
really moves the needle in the business.
And that's our job as leaders to help
connect those dots with our teams.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely spot on.
And I think that a lot of people don't
realize how much harder that is or, or
they, they do when they start doing it.
But it's so much easier if I'm just giving
people like a feature to build or a thing
to do, but giving them a real problem
to solve and signing up for the results.
Signing up for that outcome,
it really changes the game.
Yeah.
And, and that's why these teams
have ownership because they're not
only trying to build something,
they're trying to actually deliver
on something that works for customers
first and then works for the business.
'cause I also say like, customers
don't care about your business.
It's a sad reality.
Like if people were like, oh no, but
my customers are loyal, I'm like.
Sure until you serve them.
Once you stop serving them, they
will be loyal to something else.
They care about themselves and
they care about their problem.
They might say they care about you.
You might think that they do.
And people tell me like,
no, my users are loyal.
Like these people love me.
And I'm like, yes.
But they love them more
than they love you.
And because of that, they
need their problem solved.
And once you stop solving their problems
in the way that they will choose to use
it, they will not be loyal to you anymore.
So it's really about delivering
on what the customer needs.
That also helps the business.
Trisha Price: I love that
and totally agree with you.
I'm gonna switch gears a little
bit, Gabi, and because it's product
and because it's 2025, we would be
embarrassed if we didn't talk about AI.
You know.
Rapidly changing both how we do
discovery and build products as well
as the experiences we're delivering
to drive value to customers.
Yeah.
And so when you're coming
into these businesses and
you're doing a transformation.
What do you see as the biggest challenge
or fear that the teams you're working
with have around adopting AI and using
AI in their day-to-day processes?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah.
Love that question.
And first I think I'll, I'll tell you
what I, how I view transformation.
Is that okay?
Yeah.
Because I, I think that a lot of people
think, and when I review Transform, right?
I, I wrote to Marty and I was like, Hey,
this is a book for every single company.
Yeah.
This is not a book for like a big
company that's trying to transform.
And I tell all my clients like,
you all are in transformation.
If you are not
transforming, you are dying.
Because a five person startup to a
50 person startup to 500 to 5,000,
those are very different companies.
Trisha Price: We're all transforming.
And to your point, you know, I just had
Todd, our CEO of Pendo on my podcast a
few weeks ago, and Todd was talking about
we are in major transformation at Pendo.
Yeah.
We're not a company that's been
around forever and a traditional
company moving to product led.
He wrote the book on product led,
but we're completely changing
the way we do things with AI.
You know, our world and
is completely changing.
So even us, we're in the
middle of transformation
Gabrielle Bufrem: too.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I bring this up at this point because
sometimes people would be like, oh no.
But I am at the forefront of all of that.
And what I love is like, actually AI
has given me a lot of, legs to stand
on with my argument because I'm like,
well, actually, like so much has happened
since you went to sleep yesterday.
Like everything is changing so fast.
That you can't tell me that you
don't need to transform all the time.
I mean, like blockbuster's an
amazing tale as old this time, but
now we're seeing a lot, a lot more,
and I'll kind of like break up the
question in two different pieces.
I think that one is kind of like how
do you use AI or how should companies
be using AI and thinking about it when
they are, deciding what to build in
product and how to solve for things.
And then the other one is leveraging AI
as a way to become a better product team.
On the first one, a lot of companies hire
me and then they're like, "Gabi, we need
an AI strategy." And I am like, "no, you
don't." Please don't have an AI strategy.
And they normally do already, right?
When they tell me they need
one, they've written one and
they're like, want me to see it?
And the truth is just like
add, AI is not enough.
we actually are solving for very similar
problems than we were solving before.
AI.
AI is one of the levers
that we now get to pull.
Which is super exciting because
it makes a lot of things that
seemed really difficult or nearly
impossible possible, but AI should be
a part of how we solve the problem.
AI is not the problem, and I need an
AI feature is also not the problem.
And what is my AI story
is also not the problem.
So AI for AI's sake is not the right game.
We're starting to see that with all
these features that were shipped to
AI-ify product and they get a lot of
traction in like the first days, and
then people realize that they're actually
not very useful and then it becomes
like yet another thing for companies
to trim and to rethink completely.
So I think it's a really powerful
lever, really powerful tool, but
it's not a strategy unless you are.
Literally building AI and you're
building the models and stuff
like that then is not for you.
Then like, yes, let's think
about how to make that better.
But everyone else, it's really about
how do we leverage this to solve
the problems that were still true?
Before this became mainstream.
Trisha Price: What's the company strategy?
What's the product strategy?
What are the business outcomes
we're trying to drive?
And yes.
Yeah, I agree with you.
AI can solve things.
In a way that maybe we couldn't before.
Yeah.
in a more interesting way or in a more
valuable way or might decrease time
to value for customers to adopt it.
But yeah, it's still gotta drive
value and it's still gotta be
aligned to company strategy.
It can't just be a standalone AI strategy.
Our first principles of product of
is this a painkiller or a vitamin?
And are we solving a real
problem, cannot go away.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Absolutely.
And I, I'm still a fan of building less.
I tell my teams all the time,
like, Hey, let's build as little
as possible to achieve the result.
And they're like, is that like lazy?
And I'm like, no, that's smart.
Smart.
I wanna build the smallest possible thing
that gets me the best outcome possible.
And I think that that's
true with AI as well.
Yeah.
Love that.
And then in terms of like how it's
changing the game and teams, like, I
think it's been the coolest thing to
watch how AI has changed, how teams do
discovery, like vibe coding is so cool and
things that like, I mean, I feel old now.
Like I usually like go to bars and
like prototype stuff and like literally
use like napkins and Yes paper.
You know, like that was what I used to
use and I'd be like, oh, let me test this.
Um.
And that was what we did at the time.
And then we do a prototype.
But that was like even a really good
team that would take a couple days
and now with like one or two great
prompts, you have it in like minutes.
Yeah.
So I think it's super exciting.
Trisha Price: And gonna to share it, not
like individual meetings you can share it
when you able to get these prototypes that
are truly prototypes, not just designs
so quickly now you can actually get
feedback on it at scale is pretty cool.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I, I love how now it's just
becoming like, if anyone's like, oh,
we don't have time to experiment.
Right?
Which is what.
People say all the time, and I'm kind
of like, well, we all do discovery.
Some do it before we build it,
others do it after we build it.
Christian who's a partner that I
love working with, he talked about
this all the time and it's true.
It's like we're all doing discovery.
One is just way cheaper than the other.
And now with these tools and with
what AI is really enabling us to do
and to work as a team, I, I really.
See it as this kind of accelerator
and this incredible argument to
tell leaders like, oh, it's actually
not that we don't have time.
Like we can do this in a day.
Like I've seen like teams go with
multiple iterations in a day.
In a day.
Yeah.
And it's awesome.
I think it's amazing.
Um.
I also see a very exciting shift in
the row of the engineer, which I love.
And I think now engineering is becoming
like, some people are like, oh yeah,
like you're automating everything.
I'm like, no, it's becoming
even more valuable than ever.
Yeah, because really.
They have the space to focus on
co-creation, and I'm the first one
to say like, the best features ever
shipped by like teams that I've been a
part of came from engineers on my team.
They were so involved and so in the
know, and they really understood the
technology and they had the context.
They understood the problem,
they understood the user.
They knew what we wanted
to do as a business and.
They proposed these ideas that were epic.
And I think that the best teams just
get more space for that to happen.
Trisha Price: I totally agree with you.
I think it is the most fun time in
product, in my career of building.
Yeah.
and the different roles that I've
been in, and I totally agree with you
on engineering becoming wildly more
interesting and less about sort of
the mundane and product two, right?
Yeah.
Less about the mundane activities.
It's not about writing PRDs and it's
not about writing Jira tickets for
product and for engineers, you know?
Now you're breaking hard problems down.
You're coming up with different solutions.
yeah.
And sometimes the implementation of
it might be scaled and be easier and
faster, but I just think it's such
a, a fun time for that to absolutely.
Gabrielle Bufrem: I think it's never
even like before AI and vibe coding and
all of that, it's not been about that.
And now I, I feel like people that
maybe were telling themselves these
narratives are, are really like,
they're gonna have to change because
now they, that can all happen, on
the side, which is so exciting.
And, and now really the, the task
of product teams is to find the best
solution for users in a way that works
for the business that hasn't changed.
It's just more fun now.
Yeah.
Trisha Price: Well, I know our listeners
can feel my passion and especially your
passion for building product, for the
craft and for how AI's impacting it.
And I know that one of the things
that you do when you work with
different teams is you coach them to
make an energy audit of their work.
Yes.
Tell us a little bit why this is
valuable and why it's important
for culture and strategy.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's now, now it's
like really come into play.
And it's interesting, I was just talking
to a client before this because now
it's kind of like self review time.
Everyone's like writing all their
things, what they've done through
the year, which is amazing.
And it's a lot about achievement, right?
Like product is a lot about
impact and I love that.
And I think it's really important for
us to think about the impact that it
all has on us because I believe that.
We should be doing work that really
fulfills us, that gets us excited, and
if we don't stop and track and think
about our career as an experiment,
our next task as an experiment, we're
really missing out on that opportunity.
So, I normally used to ask people
that report it to me, and now I
ask my clients, I'm like, give me
a list of things that bring you
energy, like what makes you excited?
And then bring me a list of
things that take away energy.
And one thing that we do
often is we balance this list.
And we talk about like, are you doing,
are, is most of the things that you're
doing actually on that brings energy
list or are you doing things on the,
the list that takes away energy?
Are those things things that you should
be doing or should other people be doing
them or can other people be doing them?
Yeah.
And that ensures that we
are actually working on.
The things that are, we're, we're
best at, because I really do believe
that for us to do our best work,
we need to feel energized by it,
at least the majority of the time.
Trisha Price: I love that Gabi.
I think that's a great challenge for
all of our listeners today, is every one
of us to write down, you know, what are
the top 10 to 20 things we are spending
our time on right now, and which of
those are bringing us energy and which
of those are not bringing us energy?
And are there ways as good product
managers to think, stop, start, continue
for each one of those things, because
you're right, like, if we are bringing
the energy and passion to work every day,
we are gonna build beautiful product.
Yeah.
That drives business outcomes.
Exactly.
And if we are bogged down in a whole
bunch of tasks that either we don't
see value in or we really dread.
How are we really gonna ship beautiful
product that our customers love and
drive business outcomes unlikely.
I know I'm personally gonna take
that as a challenge and do that.
I love that over the next week.
And I would love it if the rest
of our listeners did the same.
'cause I think that's a
great piece of advice.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Amazing.
I think another pro hack is like to
look at your calendar and really be
like, do I need to be in this meeting?
Is it, is it absolutely
necessary that I'm there?
And that is especially true for the
leaders because like, especially people
that are involved and they care about
their teams, they, they think that
them being there is better when in
reality, a lot of the times it's not.
The meeting could have functioned
completely well without them.
And by them being there, they don't have
enough context, they don't feel prepared
enough, and honestly they couldn't.
They just have so many other
things to do that it would not
be the best use of their time.
And they end up having less time to
do things that only they could do.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
You know, a lot of times, both leaders
and product managers get this FOMO, fear
of missing out feeling if they're not
invited to a meeting or they don't go
to a meeting, that somehow, you know,
they're not seen or they're not important.
Yeah.
But I have this thing now, I call it
ROMO, which is relief of missing out.
And if you can change, I love
that your mindset to be like.
Feel relieved and happy that you didn't
have to go to a particular meeting.
And what value can you drive?
And I think you can think about
the same way with using ai.
What are the tasks that I don't like
that I can use AI to automate for me
so I can spend time doing the things
I love and focus on relief of missing
out instead of fear missing out.
Gabrielle Bufrem: I love
that relief of missing out.
Yeah.
I was notorious at my, my last job tour.
Like anything that didn't have an agenda
or like a goal, like why are we here?
What are we trying to achieve?
I would just decline.
I'd be like, I'm not attending this.
Like if I don't know why I
am here, I don't even know
how I'm supposed to show up.
Like am I there to brainstorm?
I be like, in such an important
communication thing that
we all need to be together.
Are we trying to make a decision?
Like, and I love that.
I'm like, I think meetings.
And I don't like hate them, but I
think they should have a purpose.
Like if they don't have a purpose
and it's not absolutely necessary,
we should not be in them.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
If the meeting doesn't have a
purpose, it shouldn't happen.
And if I don't have a role in the
meeting, I don't even, I should not go.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, as we finish up, today's
podcast, it is called Hard
Calls and the reason I started.
This concept of Hard Calls is because
I feel like as a product leader, you're
kind of always getting squeezed, right?
Like sales thinks they
know what you should build.
If you just do this one
feature, I can, yeah.
You know, improve win rates significantly,
and the CEO's like, I know the strategy,
I just need you to execute on it.
Right?
Yeah.
Customer support and the success
organization is like, if you just
fix these three problems, everything
in life would be amazing and
we would have better retention.
Yep.
But as the, as the product person,
you're the one left to make the decision.
The hard call.
You're the one really like holding the
bag and accountable at the end of the day.
And, you know, there's a combo of gut
instincts and, and ex and experience
along with data that we all use Yeah.
To make those decisions.
So like, tell us, how
do you think about that?
How do you think when you're
coaching product leaders to be their
best, where do they rely on that
go to seek and experience versus.
Where do you make sure that
they're utilizing, data?
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yeah, great question.
I think that the a, a common
thing that kind of became clear
as you were framing the question
is like just all the noise, right?
There's so much noise.
There's noise from the board,
there's noise from our stakeholders,
there's noise from customers.
And I think the most important
thing product leaders need to do,
and honestly the hardest is focus.
I tell a lot of people their problem
is that, yeah, there are a lot of
things that they could do, and no
one comes at you with a bad idea.
I'm never gonna be like, Trisha,
I have a terrible place to
suggest for us to go have coffee.
You know?
I'll be like, there's these five
places that are amazing, whatever.
Right?
I would get one.
Yeah, how do we pick one?
And I think a lot of the times
people are trying to like discern
between like a banana and an
apple and like a chocolate cake.
And that is really hard if you don't
know exactly what you wanna do.
So I'd say like.
First and foremost, it's about
focus and it is the hardest thing
a product leader needs to do.
Like the vision is fun and exciting and
amazing, and working with your people
is so cool and great, and seeing them
thrive and become these like epic, epic
product people, like I love all of that.
That's amazing.
But the hard call, I think is truly on
deciding what problem to solve right now.
And knowing that you
can't solve everything.
And I do think that it is like a
perfect mix of data and also the
the art behind product product.
So it's really like the art and the
science coming together and the more
I think I've evolved in my product
career, like the more it is this idea
of product sense and something that
you can really build and develop and
that you can train and, and hone in.
And I think it goes beyond industries.
I think it goes beyond different stages,
but it that combined with the true
understanding of where the market's
going, where the business is going,
and what your customers truly desire.
Trisha Price: I love that, and I totally
agree with your comment about product
sense and focus and the best product
leaders figure out what to say no to.
yes.
And they do build that product sense
on a bit of art and a bit of science.
So yes.
I really appreciate that advice for,
for me and for our listeners and
Gabi, it's been an absolute pleasure.
To have you on the show today.
I absolutely look forward to seeing
you at product camp in Brazil.
I know we're gonna get to spend time in
real life together then, and I'm really
looking to that and, and, and during that
week, having the opportunity, like you
spoke about today, to hone our craft and
work with other great product leaders.
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
Gabrielle Bufrem: Yes, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
And I just had so much fun.
I mean, this is just like us getting
to have coffee together and talk
about stuff that we both love.
and I am so excited to see you in
person and I think it is one of
these jobs that like, it's hard,
but if we have really awesome people
around us, it's the most rewarding
row, I can ever think of at least.
Trisha Price: Me too.
Well, thank you, Gabi.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to Hard
Calls, the product podcast, where
we share best practices and all
the things you need to succeed.
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