Episode 004 Audio Only Episode
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[00:00:00] Chenell Basilio: Hey, I'm Chenell
[00:00:01] Dylan Redekop: and I'm Dylan,
[00:00:01] Chenell Basilio: and this is the growth in reverse podcast. You might know my newsletter of the same name, the one where I spend 20 plus hours every week researching how top creators grow their newsletter from zero to 50, 000 plus subscribers. And if you don't, you can check it out at growthinreverse.
com, but this is the podcast version of that. And we're going to go even deeper into the content and ideas so you can figure out the strategies to try and the ones to avoid.
Today's episode is going to be a fun one. Uh, Dylan actually came up with this idea because he was asking how I would start growing my newsletter if I were to. Start from scratch again and what I would do differently. Um, so we're going to talk about, you know, some of those ideas and maybe even some monetization stuff as well.
What were you thinking when you came up with this idea?
[00:00:50] Dylan Redekop: Basically came down to, you've been doing this for, we're coming up on two years, I think, since your very first edition of this in December of 2022, we're November, 2024 right [00:01:00] now. And you know, you've put out, I think over 70 deep dives are right around there of newsletter creators.
So, um, I would imagine that you've probably learned a few things that you did not know when you first started this journey. You've put in thousands of hours into this research as well. So I thought it'd be interesting to dive into your brain and kind of pull out some of the strategies that you're like, Oh, you know, when you read it or you saw somebody doing it during your, in your research, you're like, yes, I, you know, I really should have done this, or I need to do this now.
Um, and also maybe things that you were doing that you're like, I should not have done that. That was a waste of time. Um, I thought that could be interesting as well, especially for people who are kind of a few steps behind you. Maybe they're only a few months into publishing the newsletter. I thought it would be a good like lesson for those people as well to sort of maybe learn from your mistakes to some degree, but also learn from you with what worked well and that you would do again.
If you started over.
[00:01:52] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I like this topic. Um, it's interesting because I don't often think Back to that point, but I do get asked that quite a bit, uh, and I haven't [00:02:00] really written much about it. So I guess we can kind of solve that here. Um, so I think the first thing, if we're just going to dive right in, let's dive right in.
Um, so the first thing I would, um, I would say what I did right, actually, and what I would do again is kind of start from a place of like extreme curiosity and passion with the topic. Um, I knew nothing, virtually nothing about newsletters, but I was ready to like research and figure out everything I could about it.
So that is one thing I see a lot of people like struggling with with Topics and what they actually want to start writing about And I think I did well with that because it kind of showed through in the content like people were Really excited to read the content because it was unique. Nobody else had really written about this before And spent that much time on it.
So I think I don't know. There's something there with like passion and uniqueness of the content. Um, so yeah, I think that worked in my favor, like a lot [00:03:00] in the early days. So I don't know. I'll, I'll pause there if you wanted to add anything. But
[00:03:03] Dylan Redekop: yeah, I think it showed very clearly, like your first deep dive was on Mario.
Um, Gabrielle, who wrote the, um, Oh, sorry. I'm now I'm totally blanking on his newsletter. The generalist. The generalist. Thank you. And you're like, well, this guy's making like hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just with a newsletter. And even though you weren't really into the newsletter thing, uh, the newsletter scene or didn't know much about it, you're like, I'm going to, I'm going to write or research this, figure out what he's doing and publish a newsletter on it.
Kind of meta, which was sort of, um, I don't know, kind of some sweet irony in that. Yeah. And it worked really well because I think within. A few weeks, you started popping up on social media more. Uh, I think there was a podcast I was listening to back then that had already started mentioning you. And I think you'd only been publishing for about a month at that point.
So you're getting on people's radars. Um, and that was like the copy blogger podcast. So it wasn't just like a small podcast. It was, um, [00:04:00] Ethan or yeah, Ethan, uh, Brooks. Brooks. Thank you. And he had mentioned, he had mentioned your newsletter and saying, I love this. You know, I think there's a place for really deep, well researched content and Chenell is doing a great job.
So I think it was very clear that you were like super interested and passionate about it from the get go.
[00:04:20] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And I guess there is a, a period, well, not a period of time, but like a point to this that I also had experience in the online space, but not in newsletters. So I was able to like recognize how people were marketing their stuff and how they were growing it, but I didn't have experience in this space.
So I think it was the combination of like, I don't know, the willingness to go super deep on a topic and also like the experience of knowing what's going on. A little bit about online marketing that was like helpful in terms of the content mix.
[00:04:48] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. It was kind of like this mystery box of like this newsletter thing has a question mark on it.
And you're like, I know how social media works and digital marketing works, but how is that all working together? [00:05:00] in collaboration to earn, you know, 300, 000 in a year with a newsletter.
[00:05:04] Chenell Basilio: I was thinking about this. I think there's something to be said about the, the mix of the content quality and the amount of marketing that you have to do for your newsletter.
Like if you, if you are able to like, I don't know if we think of almost like a pie chart and there's, you know, 100 percent in the full circle, you think, all right, if you spend 80 percent of your time making like incredibly crazy, good content, super detailed, something other people are definitely not doing, you probably only have to spend 20 percent of your time marketing it.
And so. I think if you only spend 20 percent on content, you're going to have a much harder time and a much more exhaustive job of like trying to get it out there and get it in front of people and getting them to want to share it. Like if it's not that good, it's going to be harder to entice people to do that.
So I think there's like a give and take on that spectrum of marketing versus content quality. Yeah. Yeah. So there's definitely something to [00:06:00] that.
[00:06:00] Dylan Redekop: There's, there's a term called product led growth in the SAS business. And I think when it comes to. And, you know, for lack of, uh, I'll just throw it all into one term, like blogging and written content, for example, um, what you have exemplified is like content led growth.
So it's just like the content is so good that it drives growth on its own. People will share it. People talk about it. Um, they, they can't help but to, because it's so good. And even to this day, you know, your content gets shared in just about every, um, any type of roundup section in, you know, YouTube.
Content marketing or, uh, email or newsletter, newsletter based newsletters. If you will, I see, I see links to your content all the time in those even still. So it just proves that if you create really good, valuable content for people, it can do 80 percent of that heavy lifting for you.
[00:06:53] Chenell Basilio: I think there still is a point.
I don't think you can ever get to a point of like 100%. Well, I won't say nobody can, but most people are [00:07:00] not going to be able to get to a point where you spend 100 percent of your time on content and still be able to get it shared. Um, the, you just brought up Ethan Brooks and he's a good example of, I was still posting on Twitter.
Me and him were not connected at all, but I think someone I. Knew that he also knew had like liked it or commented on my posts. Um, and so I think there is some, you definitely still need discovery in this, in this game. Uh, so me posting on social media was one of the things I was going to bring up. Uh, I went really hard
[00:07:28] Dylan Redekop: segue.
[00:07:29] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I went really hard into social media for the first six ish months. Um, and it served me super well in terms of getting in front of people like Ethan, um, and being able to. I don't know, get the word out about what I was doing
[00:07:42] Dylan Redekop: and how did you approach it? What was like your overall strategy or did you have one where you kind of go flying by the seat of your pants a bit?
Or was there like some intentionality behind how you're commenting and what you were posting?
[00:07:53] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, so I've talked about this before, but essentially. I wasn't posting on Twitter at all [00:08:00] when I started the newsletter. And I saw that Mario through my research, I saw that he had grown his newsletter through posting on Twitter.
So I was like, okay, great. I'm going to do the same thing. So I changed my entire profile to be like the. The image, like my profile image, the background, uh, my name, my description, everything was all about Growth In Reverse. And so. I just went like super focused on that. I wasn't trying to like send people to a link tree and be like, Hey, I actually help people with Facebook ads, but I also had this newsletter.
Um, it was very focused on Growth In Reverse. And then after that, I just started commenting. I had seen, I think it was Mario had said just engaging on other people's. Tweets had gotten him a lot of subscribers. So I was like, okay, great. I'm going to do the same thing. Um, so I actually commented, I think it was on a Cody Sanchez tweet and I just commented, um, and I tagged Jay Klaus cause he was, I was in his community at the time.
And so Jay saw that click through my [00:09:00] profile, saw that I had a newsletter subscribed. I think he was the first subscriber and then. Two other people from that one comment on Cody's tweet signed up for the newsletter. So it's like thinking of your social profile as a landing page, uh, really, really helped me in the early days.
Um,
[00:09:16] Dylan Redekop: yeah, it's very smart. I'm just scrolling through. I did a, before we hopped on this call, I did like a quick Twitter advanced search, um, from basically. December 1st, 2022 through till like kind of the end of the year. And I expect to see a lot more organic posts, but there's so many replies in here. And I think that just kind of proves that, you know, people like Nathan Baugh and Jay Klaus and, um, Uh, see if there's Kyle Adams, like there's just, you're replying to, you know, the right people, Ben tussle.
And I just think there's like a really interesting strategy here of you're not just being like the reply guy, but you're thanking people who shared your newsletter. You're commenting on other people's stuff and, you know, [00:10:00] just following that, uh, Mario strategy of. Being showing up in in the comments.
[00:10:06] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, that's interesting.
I kind of forgot how much I commented I always just remember that first one because I remember getting subscribers from it And it was like very obvious because I hadn't been posting at all on social otherwise So it's like I was telling my wife I was like, I got three subscribers She was like cool Way
[00:10:24] Dylan Redekop: to go
[00:10:25] Chenell Basilio: How much time are you spending on this thing?
I know Yeah, is adhd things that you're gonna quit in three weeks? Yeah. Yeah
[00:10:31] Dylan Redekop: You You know, you've, you've proven her wrong,
[00:10:35] Chenell Basilio: proven her wrong at this point. Um, but yeah, I think the social posting early on was huge for me. Um, and I was only on Twitter. I wasn't doing LinkedIn at this point until I don't farther down the road, but yeah, definitely commenting, engaging on social.
And I'm glad you pointed that out because you don't. I think a lot of us get so hung up on social of like, what do I post today? Like, do I have to make it this long thread or [00:11:00] this huge insightful piece where I have to pull out research? And it's like, if you just come in on other people's stuff, like you're going to grow, it might not be as fast, but you're still going to grow.
You're going to learn what you should be posting. So I think it's a good strategy.
[00:11:14] Dylan Redekop: That's what I was going to say to you. Like a lot of times I'll come up with ideas just based on replies to People's posts, you know, it just gets me thinking a different way. And I start fumbling reply. I'm like, Oh, that's actually like.
Maybe that could be a good topic, uh, something I could post on later or that comment itself just turns into a post another day because, um, either it had good, good response to it or I just thought it was, you know, insightful on my part not to be like tooting my own horn or anything like that. I'm like, Oh, I never thought about it that way until I read that person's post and it made me think this way.
Yeah. I can definitely, um, spawn ideas.
[00:11:47] Chenell Basilio: And then I think through the reply game, if you will, it wasn't really what I was going for. But through that, I was able to build relationships with certain people. on Twitter that at the time I didn't realize had [00:12:00] influence, but they definitely did. Um, you could think of someone like Paul Metcalf, right?
He is, if you have been on Twitter, you know, Paul, like he might not be famous in the creator space, but if you've been on there for years, you know, he's been around for a long, long time. And so at the time I was just like, Oh, this guy looks like a nice person. I'm just engaging with this stuff, but I didn't realize how many people he knew.
And he had his own newsletter. And I think he was sharing some of my articles in their, um, people like John Bardo's same, same thing been around for years, but like you would never realize how big of an influence they have because it's so understated. Yeah. So I think, I think just, you know, being a human, talking to people, sharing ideas, such a good.
Good way to build relationships and just grow slowly in the beginning.
[00:12:48] Dylan Redekop: So if you're rewind to starting your newsletter over again, how would you approach this strategy of social media growth now, what would be kind of like. just some basic do's and don'ts.
[00:12:57] Chenell Basilio: I would say, I think in the early days, I [00:13:00] would set like a little timer.
Like I have this, you know, ADHD timer here. I would set it, uh, for 30 minutes, 20 if you don't have time and just engage with other people's stuff. Like even if you're not going to publish anything that day, comment on other people's posts, like their stuff, share it. Um, I think that goes such a long way and it feels like such a task.
Like after a while, you're just like, Oh, I have to go on Twitter again. But it really, really has so many impacts that you can't even see upfront that if you just stay consistent with it, it's like, I would do that. That would be the first thing I did is if I had, well, if we were starting with Growth In Reverse again, um, I would continue to write my posts and then any other spare time I had would just be spent on social media,
[00:13:42] Dylan Redekop: mostly commenting.
Or would you be sharing nuggets from those posts as well? How would that work?
[00:13:47] Chenell Basilio: I would share nuggets. I think, I think what I did well was sharing a thread. Of the actual deep dive. So like a shorter version, essentially, um, those always did well, but they took so much time to write. [00:14:00] Everyone's always like, Oh, Chenell, you're so good at hooks.
But like, it's a battle to get that out of me. So I don't do well with just like posting something I don't feel good about. So, um, that took a lot of time, but I would say the threads and then even just like little snippets. Um, I think what I would have done differently is shared some of my sawdust along the way.
Like, Hey, I found this cool, interesting quote from this podcast. Um, and I think why I didn't do that in the beginning was that through those, like I was teasing the newsletter the day before as well. And so I didn't want people to know who I was researching. So I didn't want to share like, Hey, you know, you know, whoever did this.
So that stopped me, but it was, It shouldn't have, like, I could have shared it the next week or just changed up my, my strategy a little
[00:14:52] Dylan Redekop: bit. The other thing too, is if you would have just started sharing, you know, quotes from anything, anything you were finding, I think it would have been, it [00:15:00] wouldn't have necessarily been a giveaway of that's who you're researching.
And even if it was, I think the amount of time and effort you're putting into it, like if you worry about somebody stealing the idea, just like you had a unique way of creating it and put so much time and effort into it that you just, you know, Probably we're going to outperform most other people, uh, with.
With that amount of time and effort.
[00:15:19] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And it wasn't so much about someone stealing the idea. It was more of like the day before I sent my newsletter out, I would write these really, I don't know, cryptic, interesting cryptic, that's a great word. Cryptic. Uh, teasers for the newsletter. So I'd say like this one person built a 600, 000.
Subscriber newsletter in two years, but I didn't want to give away who it was. So if I would have shared like along the way, Hey, I listened to this podcast and like, Dan from TLDR, you know, grew this way. Like it would have kind of really. Made those not work as well, or maybe it wouldn't have, maybe it would have just added to the curiosity.
I don't know.
[00:15:58] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Well, you don't know now. [00:16:00] Um, but yeah, if you're doing it all over again, you'd find out. I'd be curious about some disproportional things maybe that you were doing with social media or other things that. You would not necessarily do again. If you were starting over
[00:16:14] Chenell Basilio: in terms of social media,
[00:16:16] Dylan Redekop: if there are some that come to mind, yeah, let's, let's stick with that.
Like what, what, what kind of things were you doing that you think looking back were probably not the best use of your time or actually a complete waste of time?
[00:16:24] Chenell Basilio: I don't know if anything I did on social was a bad use of time. I feel like it either furthered a relationship, got subscribers or helped me get better at the craft of writing.
So I don't know. I don't know that there was anything bad. I think the only thing I would have changed is like. The pressure on myself to like publish three, four, five times a week, because eventually I stopped posting on social media, not altogether, but pretty much like I wasn't after about six months, I like really burnt myself out.
I think that is something I would have changed is, [00:17:00] I don't know. I don't know how I would have changed it, but just not putting that pressure on myself to like write something good four or five times a week.
[00:17:08] Dylan Redekop: Do you think the Just sticking with that strategy of setting a timer for 20 or 30 minutes and just doing replies.
If you weren't feeling the creative spark, do you think that would have helped if you had kept doing that?
[00:17:19] Chenell Basilio: I do. Like if I would have scaled back my posting to just like the teasers on Saturday and maybe one other thing, and then kept engaging, I think it would have been good because after you stop posting on social, like the algorithm and I'm talking at it about it, like I know what it is, but like it just stops.
Um, and so I don't know, like the longer you go without posting, I feel like the worse it is. So I don't know. I mean, even now when I go back on there, I'll still get good engagement, but it's never, I've never had something with more than 400 likes on it. And that was maybe one or two threads that I wrote that got that many.
So [00:18:00] I don't know. I think, I think building a more sustainable approach to social would have helped me.
[00:18:06] Dylan Redekop: I think that's pretty insightful. What, what's something else, um, maybe next on your list that, uh, we haven't discussed yet that you do differently. I
[00:18:13] Chenell Basilio: think I would have started a paid newsletter.
[00:18:15] Dylan Redekop: Uh huh.
That was a good one of my questions for
[00:18:18] Chenell Basilio: you. Yeah, because the content was so in depth, it was worth paying for. People, multiple people told me that, yeah, it was definitely worth paying for. I think I just got scared of like. boxing myself into writing deep dives for the rest of my life. And so I, that was what freaked me out a little bit.
Um, I remember doing research on Lenny Rochitsky and he said it was almost like a ball was chasing you down a hill or up a hill or something. Some visual that I have of like, you can never stop writing about that thing. And his topic he's, I feel like he's kind of boxed maybe not. He's expanded a little bit lately, but I felt like I was so boxed into like newsletter [00:19:00] growth, deep dives.
Like if it was just newsletter growth or audience growth, I think I could do that. But being boxed into writing a 3000 word piece every week, that was a lot.
[00:19:10] Dylan Redekop: I could see that. Yeah, I could see that. So if you restructure this, like if you were starting over again, how do you think you would have structured the, let's say you decided to go paid, how would you have operated that?
[00:19:21] Chenell Basilio: I think I would do maybe one deep dive a month and then the other weeks would be kind of like a Lenny style where you like Q and a like send a question. I'll find an expert to help me answer it and then I'll write a piece about it. I think that's way more of a sustainable thing.
[00:19:36] Dylan Redekop: Oh, totally. Um, Would you have gated all of the content to be under a subscription or would you have released some free stuff as well?
[00:19:45] Chenell Basilio: I would release some free stuff for sure. The reason I would have wanted to do a paid newsletter is that Taking the pressure off yourself of having to make money from your newsletter week after week. And like finding sponsors, writing the sponsor copy, like it's a good [00:20:00] strategy. If you can do it well, like if Justin Moore, like if he can find one sponsor for the whole year and like, you don't have to worry about it.
That's great. But that was not happening for me. So every week I was trying to find a new sponsor and then I'd have to write the copy and decide on like how it flowed into the piece. So it was just a lot. So I think a paid newsletter would have kind of. You know, you're selling the content you're writing.
You don't have to add on to it. So I think that would have helped a lot, uh, reduce the pressure of like trying to make money with this thing, but also not selling my soul.
[00:20:37] Dylan Redekop: Fair, fair. Uh, well, selling yourself from which aspect actually, do you mean selling yourself to like being a slave to advertisers?
[00:20:45] Chenell Basilio: No, I mean. Not trying to like do all the gimmicky things to make money, like a small product here, like, you know, doing all these other things Which I didn't do but I feel like I felt very pressured to do some of those things [00:21:00] So, I don't know.
It's just a different level of stress that would have come I don't know how to say this Well, but the the paid newsletter would have taken away a lot of the stress I think of trying to find
[00:21:15] Dylan Redekop: It's an interesting, the way you approach the, or think about the paid newsletter, the pressure from that, um, of boxing yourself into just like more of like a content trajectory or like a, sorry, a content topic or a niche, uh, because I consider doing a paid newsletter as well, but it was, for me, it was more like, I don't think what I'm writing is worth paying for.
So it was more like a, Um, battle with myself of like, you know, imposter syndrome a little bit and really wondering, like, would somebody actually pay for this? Where I think you had like the proof that just. Like your content was good enough that people were sharing and talking about it. And, you know, really enjoying it that you were like, Oh yeah, I'm pretty confident people would pay for this.
But you were just like, I don't want to be boxed into writing deep dives on [00:22:00] newsletter growth for the rest of my life or for the next, you know, X amount of years or months or whatever it might be for your subscription. Um, so yeah, that's, it's an interesting, interesting topic. And
[00:22:11] Chenell Basilio: I think the other thing on the monetization side that I would have done is said yes, when people asked if they could pay me for a coaching call.
Like I had a lot of requests for that early on. I don't love jumping on calls. That is not my like zone of genius. Like I'm very good taking an idea, going to like research it myself, coming up with thoughts and then presenting them. Not like on the fly stuff. Um, so. That always scared me, but looking back, like I've actually had some really good calls with people and I wish I would have, you know, said yes to those kinds of opportunities earlier.
[00:22:46] Dylan Redekop: Let's, let's explore briefly how you're currently earning revenue. You don't have to give revenue numbers, but you've got multiple revenue streams at this point. Um, and then I'd be curious to go back, you know, again, starting over. We talked about paid newsletter. Is there anything else you [00:23:00] would, um, pay newsletter and coaching anything else that you would do differently with revenue?
[00:23:04] Chenell Basilio: So right now the revenue is coming from. Uh, the community Growth In Reverse pro that is. That feels the most aligned with how I work and how I do well or how I help people. Um, And it's just another avenue to like me to share my ideas and that kind of thing. Uh, sponsorships is definitely still a big part of it.
Um, I need to put together like a really solid, like here's 26%, you know, We'll get that so we can talk about that in a future episode. But sponsorships affiliates. So for example, I wrote a piece on Justin Welch. He has a course I signed up for his affiliate program for the course. So if someone buys it through my deep dive, I get a little commission.
So it's not a ton, but it's a good, like additional revenue source. And it's nice. Cause it's already stuff I'm going to talk about. So I'm just like. Oh, wait, they have an affiliate program. Let me sign up and throw that link in there instead of just [00:24:00] the typical link to the course. There's more. Oh, newsletter audits.
I don't do those. Um, and we're actually going to start doing more of that, which I'm really excited about. So that should hopefully become a bigger piece of this and give us more insights to share here too, um, just like ways that are working for people to grow their newsletter. So those are the main ones.
[00:24:25] Dylan Redekop: Let's go back again, because this is a little bit of a retroactive to some degree, because I'm curious how your first, um, first, Newsletter ad came about or newsletter sponsor and like how long into the process that was and maybe how you would have approached that whole situation differently, you know, in hindsight, or was, did it work out really well?
And you're really happy with how it, how it happened.
[00:24:47] Chenell Basilio: I'm going to pull this up for you so I can get the full exact date. Um, but I followed the Josh Spector. method of getting sponsors. Um, so he [00:25:00] essentially talked about this on Twitter. Actually, no, it was on a podcast episode with Jay Klaus. And he said that he put a link in his newsletter and said, would you be interested in, or I'm thinking of adding sponsors to this.
Would you be interested? And then there were three links you could click and each click was like a vote. So the first one was, yes, I'm, I'd be interested in seeing sponsors. Yes, I'd be interested. The second one was, yes, I'd be interested in sponsoring an issue. And the third one was like, no, I don't want to see sponsors.
And he said like 90%, I think, um, actually were interested and like, okay with him putting sponsors in there. Yeah. So, yeah. That is kind of how I started doing it. Um, so I did the same thing. I put the same question in my newsletter with the same links. Um, and I got a really good response. I want to say it was like 85 percent of people said, let me pull this up.
I think I still have it. Yeah. So it was like 86 percent of people said. They'd be interested or yes to [00:26:00] ads. Um, 24 out of the hundred something said they would want to be a sponsor. Um, and then like two people said no to ads. So it was. It was very good. Very well received. I posted that. The first sponsor came from a reader.
They DM'd me on Twitter and said, Hey, I want to sponsor the issue. Like how much, what are you thinking? And I was like, Oh, uh, a hundred bucks. They were like, okay, great. Sounds, sounds good. Send me a PayPal invoice or whatever it was. And that was the first sponsor. Awesome. That was, wait, I'm trying to find out how many subscribers I had.
It was February 12th, 2023. Okay. So like three months in, it was going out to 2200 email subscribers. Okay. So a hundred bucks for 2200 subscribers. That's not bad. No, that's not take it. Especially for the first one.
[00:26:54] Dylan Redekop: No kidding. It's not bad at all. Yeah. Okay. So a hundred bucks, three months in. Um, do you remember [00:27:00] how that ad performed?
[00:27:01] Chenell Basilio: I don't. Let me see. Um,
[00:27:04] Dylan Redekop: did the sponsor ever rebook with you?
[00:27:06] Chenell Basilio: They did not, but I don't, looking back, like, I don't think it was a good fit. It was my friend Andrew and he runs a tool called lasso. It's for WordPress and it's like helping you like organize your affiliate links. So I don't feel like it was a good, I don't know.
[00:27:21] Dylan Redekop: There was a fit line there. Yeah.
[00:27:24] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. Interesting. So click to open rate that ad got 2. 4%. So it wasn't a huge, I'm out, but it wasn't bad either. 2.
[00:27:32] Dylan Redekop: 4 isn't, isn't terrible. Uh, not really at all. Actually. That's, that's not bad for an ad. I want to go quickly back to just something that jumped in my mind that I want to just touch back on when you mentioned sending out this email to your subscribers about this poll, like, would you care to see ads?
Yes. No, I, I couldn't help, but wonder if like you framed it as. Or something you could have done even, even if you were thinking about a paid newsletter, like juggling with that idea, like wrestling with it, whether you wanted [00:28:00] to go paid or if you wanted to bring in sponsorships or somebody else's maybe thinking about this, you could literally be like, Hey, do you want to keep this newsletter free for yourself to have?
Um, I mean, I think you had a lot of good feedback that. People are really enjoying the newsletter and you could have maybe dangled that carrot too, and just seeing what the response would be. Like I'll bring in sponsors. I mean, most people probably say, yeah, keep it free. But, um, I wonder if there would have been an interesting way to suss out how much revenue you could have potentially earned if you said, I'm thinking about, you know, Making this a paid newsletter.
And, um, you know, would you be interested in that? Just like for somebody who's maybe in the same boat growing a newsletter, that's growing pretty quickly based on free content that people are digging, eating up and are thinking about going paid. Maybe that would be a way to like, kind of just test and see if maybe people would be interested in, um, Yeah,
[00:28:53] Chenell Basilio: I think it could be an interesting experiment for someone to try out because yeah, I mean you're just [00:29:00] asking them a question.
Most people won't even remember that you asked that question. So if in 6 months or 6 weeks, you decide to pivot, it's not a big deal. Yeah,
[00:29:09] Dylan Redekop: I have one, one other question. I don't know if you're going to get into this at all, but it's on the growth side as well. And, um, Because for those people, for those of the people listening who do not know you are running Facebook ads, right?
Like as a service for Pete, for different businesses, right? You've never used, at least that I know of, you've never used Facebook ads to help grow your newsletter. And I'm curious, like, why not? And would you potentially look into doing that if you were to start over again to get some kind of quicker growth?
[00:29:39] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. So the reason I didn't do Facebook ads for Growth In Reverse was that I was, That's how I was bringing in money as like a freelancer, essentially. Um, and I was getting really burnt out on the service side of things. And so when I thought of Facebook ads, I thought of helping those clients and it really, I don't know.
It made me feel [00:30:00] gross inside. Like I didn't love it anymore. So I didn't want to like bring that into the growth or reverse side of things. Cause I was having so much fun with it. However, once I hit like 5, like this is one of the reasons I wish I would have monetized better in the early days too, is like, if you have a consistent amount.
People are paying every month, like, you know, how much you can spend on ads. And like, it's just a much easier funnel to scale with paid growth. Um, I didn't have that in the early days, which is why I didn't do it. Um, and I had seen people get burned by like trying to run ads towards like a new course or a new something or a new business that they started before they actually.
Product market fit. Right. And so I knew I had product market fit at that point, but I didn't have the revenue coming in. But if I would've just sat down and like figured it out, it would have probably helped me grow a lot faster.
[00:30:58] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, because [00:31:00] you'd have a bigger audience sponsors to, um, you know, coming in asking to sponsor your newsletter, it would maybe a hundred bucks.
It would have potentially been 500. Had you been, you know, had a larger audience and stuff like that.
[00:31:11] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. So I think, um, If I were to start over or do something different after like the 5, 000 subscriber mark, maybe 10, 000, I think it's like really prudent to actually go after paid growth because I feel like growth really stopped, start slowing down at around like 20, 000, 30, 000.
So if you can figure out the funnel before then, I think it's a really good, uh, way to continue your growth.
[00:31:36] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I can see that. Uh, especially if you do, like you said, have some revenue coming in that you can invest into growth. In fact, um, I remember interviewing, um, Mike Houck from Houck's news, uh, when I was working at spark loop and he basically was like, I operate my newsletter, like a startup, every dollar it earns goes back into growth.
And he just was like, so this is flywheel of [00:32:00] right. Every revenue dollar that came in after his expenses were paid, of course, his bills were paid. He would put any extra profit into growing the newsletter. So, um, it's something that is hard to do because, you know, you're doing this as a business and also to pay yourself, but, um, he was really diligent.
You know, focusing on that growth aspect. So it's, it's something I, I think about often.
[00:32:24] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, for sure. Um, and that's one of the reasons I started doing paid stuff more recently is, you know, I'm trying to nail down that subscriber lifetime value type of thing. Um, I'm not there yet, but I think there's like a forcing function.
Like if you start spending money, you kind of figure it out faster. Uh, cause you're like, well, I'm spending money. Hopefully it comes back. Um, so there's something to that, but I think, yeah, once you hit 5, 000 plus subscribers and you have people replying to your newsletter, you know, you can just tell that there's like an affinity for your content.
I think it's a [00:33:00] really good idea to kind of keep going with it.
[00:33:02] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. So what is, um, do you have any other big lessons or insights that you want to share? That you do differently.
[00:33:09] Chenell Basilio: Relationships have been like the, I would say the backbone of all of my growth, like anything that helps me grow. I can tie back to someone, which makes sense, right?
Other people have newsletters, they're sharing your stuff. Clearly it's a human behind that. So I think what I would have done better or differently is, um, be more diligent about staying on top of relationships. I feel like I met a lot of people along the way, but I wasn't very good at continuing those relationships throughout the years.
Um, so I think, I think that would have been, that would have been a really good thing to do, but at the same time, the people who are still around are, you know, much more I would consider them more of like closer friends than anything. So I don't know, it's a, it's a balance, but I think spending more time being more diligent about following up with [00:34:00] people, you know, in three months, if we You know, if, if we talk today in three months, I should follow up and say like, Hey, how are things going?
You know, maybe we should collaborate on something, that kind of thing.
[00:34:11] Dylan Redekop: I think, yeah, you, people gravitate towards you. And, um, and I think that, you know, without knowing it, you're, you're building, those relationships are still very sound, whether or not you're reaching out to them over and over again. Um, so.
And I think also you're probably not giving yourself enough credit for just like, you know, being a great human who reciprocates a lot of, a lot of, um, a lot into the universe that other people are, you know, they're sharing your stuff and you're more than happy to share their stuff as well. And I think that goes a long way.
So I think from an outsider's perspective, you're doing like a really good job of. Building those relationships and nurturing them too.
[00:34:52] Chenell Basilio: Well, thanks. I appreciate that.
[00:34:53] Dylan Redekop: I think more newsletter operators could probably benefit from that.
[00:34:56] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, it's a, it's, it's everything [00:35:00] right. And those relationships, if for some reason Growth In Reverse shut down tomorrow, like I still have those relationships with people, which will help me in the future and help them in the future.
So I think it's just an interesting, uh, It's more of a long term play than just like a referral program or something like that.
[00:35:17] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, and it's not even building relationships just with, you know, an ulterior motive. You're just genuinely like, you know, Like people and want to want to help them and support them when you can.
[00:35:29] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, so that's definitely a big one quality relationships Focus, I know we kind of have strayed a little bit from the topic But if if I were to start completely over I don't know. I always think about like, I think the best way to grow a new newsletter is like go on social right for three to six months about some topic that you're interested in figure.
It's like the Tom Alder playbook. I'm sure other people have done this, but you know, right. different types of content, different ideas, find out what resonates with [00:36:00] people, um, figure out how the algorithm works and then start writing a newsletter, like put up a wait list four or five months in, start gathering those emails.
Once you have like a topic you're excited about. In some ways, I wish I would have done that, but at the same time, I don't think I would have started if I did that. So I don't know. It's hard to. It's an interesting balance.
[00:36:20] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, it really is. Uh, depending on, I think a lot on the person, like Tom was super strategic and he's very, like his newsletter is called strategy breakdowns.
He's a, he's a strategic banker. Right. Um, I find, I feel you and I are a little bit more guided by energy and passion, maybe a little bit more. So not that we're not strategic, but like, you know, I don't feel like doing X. So therefore I will do Y. And, um, at least I know I can be that way when it comes to certain things.
So, um, yeah, just doing the thing is what will help us as opposed to like, okay, here's the plan for the first three months. We're going to do X, Y, Z. And then after, you know, at this certain point, then we're going to create the landing page [00:37:00] and start validating the idea. And then like by, if I went personally, if I went down that path three months down the road, I'd be like, yeah, no, I'm done with this idea.
Like I I'm, I'm, this is too process driven and regimented. Um, And so I think for the right person, that strategy definitely works. Um, but it might not, it might not work for everybody, everybody's personality. I have one last question just about opera operations wise, because you're essentially running Growth In Reverse as a solopreneur for the, for the large, long majority of it been being running, would you have, um, incorrect if I'm wrong, but would you, you didn't really bring in any outside help in the first, you know, 12 to 18 or so months of publishing, would you have done that?
I
[00:37:44] Chenell Basilio: think I would have hired like a VA type person earlier on. Yeah, yeah. Um, because after doing that, I think she's been with me now like two months. It's like awesome. Like all the little projects that I've been wanting to do for months and months that I [00:38:00] just don't have the time and bandwidth to sit down and do.
She's like knocking out in like four hours. And I'm like, Oh man, come on. These have like been holding up a spot in my brain for so long. And it's just like, she's like, okay, done. And like, What? So I think that higher sooner, right? I think that could have really helped me grow faster in a way And or be more strategic without having to sit down and do the strategy type things Like I'm a I'm very good at coming up with ideas But it's very Challenging to get me to actually sit down and create a plan and do all the steps and that kind of thing So you'd
[00:38:37] Dylan Redekop: on the idea
[00:38:37] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, a hundred percent.
So if I would have just brought someone in earlier, I think that would have really helped.
[00:38:42] Dylan Redekop: Nice. And at what point would you feel comfortable with bringing somebody in? Even not necessarily somebody on like a payroll where you, you know, have to pay them out every two weeks and they're W 2 employer or anything, but just like even a contractor that might be relying on you for a bit of work.
How, how early in the process, if you're starting again, would you bring them in?
[00:38:59] Chenell Basilio: I [00:39:00] would say as early as possible. Um, most VA's type of people, they really don't cost a ton. Like maybe 1500 bucks a month. Um, If you're going like external, like out of the U S or Canada or anything, but I think it's so worth it.
Like if you can find a couple sponsors just to cover that person's like, like small amount, you can get someone for full time to like do all of these little tasks that you haven't wanted to do for a while. Um, or just didn't have the mental bandwidth to do. So I think it's, it's definitely something I would have done probably four months, five months in, like after I realized I
[00:39:37] Dylan Redekop: was going to stick with this for a while.
And it was generating a bit of revenue that you could justify paying somebody to help you with.
[00:39:43] Chenell Basilio: Right, exactly. And then you essentially have two people for not a ton of money. So,
[00:39:49] Dylan Redekop: yeah, cool. Any other closing thoughts?
[00:39:51] Chenell Basilio: Um, I don't know. This was fun to kind of think back of like, I feel like a lot of the stuff I would have kept the same, uh, just [00:40:00] because it, it helped guide to where I am now.
But, um, yeah, there are definitely some things I would have changed, like hiring someone earlier, as you just mentioned, uh, sticking with a consistent social media posting schedule. Um, I definitely grew a lot slower because I stopped posting on social, so that kind of stinks, but, you know, you just kind of have to.
Accept it after a certain point.
[00:40:26] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, true. It's been an insightful, uh, journey and really interesting to hear how you, you know, would approach things if you had to do it again. And I'm curious if you, if all this suddenly burned to the ground and you had to start Growth In Reverse again, would you start the exact same newsletter?
[00:40:44] Chenell Basilio: I would start the exact same newsletter. I would probably write a post every other week.
[00:40:49] Dylan Redekop: Oh, okay. Okay.
[00:40:50] Chenell Basilio: Or somehow get ahead because after batch,
[00:40:55] Dylan Redekop: like lock yourself in a cabin and batch a month's worth of content and then you don't have to write for the rest of the year. [00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I mean, for the first eight, eight to 10 months, I was probably waking up every Sunday and waking up at like four o'clock to finish the deep dive that was going out at like 9:00 AM So it's not really a sustainable work, uh, work life balance.
So I think I would've tried to get ahead a little bit more if I. Was able to, that's probably the main thing I would change is just the cadence. And then maybe on the off weeks publish, you know, a shorter piece about something interesting I've seen, or even just like a pulling out one growth lever that I've seen work, that kind of thing.
[00:41:32] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been great.
[00:41:34] Chenell Basilio: I appreciate you bringing up this topic. That's a good
one.